The Ringer NFL Show - Now We’re Having Fun (Ep. 193)

Episode Date: November 29, 2017

On Tuesday, The Ringer’s Robert Mays and Kevin Clark recapped Week 12, including why Joe Flacco shouldn’t be allowed to play in prime time anymore (01:00), why no one wants to face the Falcons in the NFC playoffs (03:30), and why it’s the Rams' defense that deserves more credit for the team's success this year (11:00). Then, the guys discuss some breakout stars who surprised us this season (15:00) and explain why the Texans are the best out-of-the-running team (22:00). Finally, Danny Kelly joins the show to discuss why the Steelers seem to play down to their competition (39:00) and how the Seahawks can scrape together a playoff run despite a depleted defense and no run game (43:45). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, this is JJ Reddick. You may know me as a basketball player. You may have seen me play during my college career at Duke University or perhaps over the past decade playing in the NBA for the magic, the bucks, the clippers, or the Sixers. Well, today I'm here to tell you about my new show, the JJ Reddick podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. This is where you can find me interviewing athletes

like my current teammate, Joelle and Bede, as well as in-depth conversations with celebrities like the late-late show host James Corden. The very first episode goes live later this week, so make sure to subscribe to the JJ Redick podcast wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer podcast network. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark. Kevin Week 12 is behind us, including a barn burner of a Monday night game. I'm glad I watched that.

I have a solution. So obviously, Flacco should never be allowed in primetime, remember again. Remember the old college probation thing? It was pretty much before both of our times But I know it to be true A TV ban Search your heart

Like SMU It's like oh no You lose your scholarships Also you can't be on TV anymore Sure, yeah yeah I'm gonna I'm gonna float that for Flacco Scott Katzmar tweeted this out Flacco is the first quarterback

In NFL history Who's had 10 games With under 4.5 yards per attempt on 30 plus attempts. So essentially what we're talking about here is a lot of attempts, all of them going for for almost nothing. He's been impossibly bad this season. And again, the only offense that the Ravens could muster was Alex Collins doing things. This is not hard. The Ravens are very simple at this point. And again, that defense is good enough. We talked about this last Friday that if they get in, they can bother some people. It's going to be odd. They are such a

disgusting team to watch and it's looking more and more like they're going to be in the playoffs. I can't wait. Oh, gosh. Well, you know what? There actually were some very good games last week and there's some good teams that we're going to discuss.

So the tone will not be dowered throughout here. And let's not let the Monday night game overshadow. Because I think a lot of people were sort of flipping about the Steelers Packers game, but I don't know what more, aside from obviously Aaron Rogers being on one side of the ball. I mean, that was a pretty fun game.

It was fun. And the Steelers had just enough breakdowns and coverage to make the game close. Yep. Which, you know, I'll take that. I don't really mind watching a close game that involves Brett Humley. So if that's how we got to get there, then that's how we have to get there. I'm cool with it. Plenty of cover.

We're going to talk about some teams that are in the wild card hunt and kind of which teams are looking the best like we did last week. We're going to talk about some teams. They're out of that wild card hunt. Danny Kelly is going to join us a little bit later to break down the Steelers and why they always seem to play down to their competition. But before we do any of that, let's get going with our four downs, our four biggest stories of the weekend, and we will start with the

NFC playoff chase, where the NFC South continues to have a couple teams that look like they're cruising to a wild card, including the Atlanta Falcons. Wild Bean is in place. Mahat Sunu in the gun. Sunu juggled it, now going to throw it, tee it up for Julio Jones.

Julio's there and it's caught. First down, let's dig into that NFC wild card hunt. Kevin, first question. for you, where does Muhammad's the new rank in the quarterback hierarchy of the NFL? Is he the 12th best quarterback? Better than Flacco. Yeah.

Better than both the quarterbacks. You would much rather have watched Mohammed Sunu last night than Joe Flacco. Better than both quarterbacks last night. All right. Let's actually dig into this a little bit. By the way, Roger Sherman tweeted out something about Sanu's quarterback prowess

and Sanu himself retweeted it, which indicates to me that Sanu is extremely proud of how good he is a quarterback. Hasn't he like never thrown an incomplete past in the NFL? Six for six. Yeah, I mean, it's What is it? Six for six, I believe.

He's only thrown six passes. It seems like he's thrown more than that. I, I, let me look that up. I trust you. I'm just, anecdotally, it feels like he's thrown more passes than that.

Still six is a lot. All right, for this? Sam Cook, the Ravens punter, four for four, 48 yards, quarterback rating of 118.

The only player better than that is Muhammad Sanders, six for six, 228 yards, three touchdowns, a perfect quarterback rating. I'm surprised it's only been three touchdowns. Seriously, it seems like every single year on the bottom, on the ticker on the bottom, you just say, Muhammad's a new one for one, 38 yards in a touchdown.

It just definitely feels like more than that. Tuan Randallel. Exactly. And they let him do it a lot because he can clearly throw it. So all right, the Falcons and Panthers both win again. So they are kind of really locked in here. I mean, those look like the two teams. Seattle's obviously there, but as we talked about before Atlanta has the tie breaker over

the Seahawks and a lot of other teams. So the Falcons and Panthers kind of look like they're in a really good spot in that wildcard race. So let's have a similar discussion to the one we had last week about the AFC. Which wild car contenders in your mind in the NFC look the most dangerous right now? Well, I mean, who wants to see the Falcons? Nobody. And I think that's number one. I feel like that's the one team where you're like,

Ditches doesn't look like fun. They clearly could beat anybody in that conference right now in my mind. I mean, Philly obviously is playing great, but the Falcons just have such a potency to them when they're right, that that is a scary proposition. So just to recap, the wildcard contenders at this point are the Falcons 7 and 4, Panthers 8 and 3, and there's pretty much no scenario which the Panthers don't make it. You have a kind of a, at this point, paper tiger Seahawks team at 7 and 4 just because of the situation they're in. Russell Wilson is still, he's going to break the record, maybe smash the record for points, excuse me, yards accounted for, uh, percent. percentage-wise of an offense. Do you know who holds that mark previously?

It's a great question. No. John Kittner with the Lions. That's incredible. So Russell Wilson is over 80% of the Seacox offense, which is just outrageous. Matthew Stafford's got to be close to that, right, considering they can't run the ball. I assume he's in the top three or four in the league.

I don't know. I'm thinking about teams that throw it a lot, but can't run it. I mean, those are the kind of the teams that do that. So, I mean, Stafford's got to be there, but 80% is nuts. That's great stuff. And then you get to the Lions Packers Cowboys.

I mean, I think that the elephant in the room in this situation is what happens if Aaron Rogers gets back. Because then, then no matter what, the Packers become the scariest wildcard team. Correct. And so I wrote about this on Monday for my recap

and you have to put the Packers kind of in that top tier just because who knows? Yeah. I mean, if that lingering element, but them losing to Pittsburgh is a big deal because now there are essentially three games behind Atlanta. Because when you don't have the wild card,

that makes it another game. So Atlanta's seven and four, the Packers 5 and 6. That's three games back with however any games to go. You know, that's a really tough spot to be in. Did you see, by the way, Pro Football Focus graded Julio Jones in 99.9.

Why wouldn't you? Which is as high as you can get. And according to the PFF Falcons Twitter at the 13th, perfect grade since, grades began. He's really good. And it just seems like

the buck should do a little bit more to not leave one guy on him, which is problematic. That one route that he runs, that he ran twice in a row, including the second touchdown, not the one from Sunu, the one where it's just like a post corner, but it's a post corner that just leaves the corner or safety in a heap on the field. It's unstoppable.

I just don't know why they don't run that pretty much every single time with him because he's open. Every time they do it, he's wide. It's amazing. A quick addendum. The only other player this year to get a perfect grade PFF-wise, Adrian Claybourne.

Adrian Claiborne. Yeah, I knew that, actually. So, I mean, I'm not saying Adrian Claiborne is some monster who's going to be amazing in the playoffs. I'm just saying, if you have two guys, and I understand that Chaz Green

will not be starting opposite Adrian Claiborne in the playoffs, I'm just saying there's some scary talent there. Julio Jones is enough to scare me. Offense is frightening. And if he's playing like that and they're going to throw the ball to him 15 times, I mean, that's just a combination you don't want to see.

And I wrote about this again on Monday. The Falcons offense was as dangerous last year as we saw it because they threw the ball to everybody. It was kind of equal opportunity. They really like to spread the ball around because that's how you build a great offense. But when it came down to the playoffs and it's like, okay, we need to get the most out of our guys here. That's what Julio took over games. He'll like four passes in the Super Bowl. They were all incredible and he was triple team the entire time.

So Julio Jones is the most important guy in that offense. I mean, that's just how it goes. So when he's playing like this, they just become a team on the horizon that you don't want to see. Yeah. What do you think about Carolina? It just feels like, they don't scare me. And maybe they should more than they do. I just feel like the defense is such a known commodity at this point that you don't think about it.

And the fact that they got kind of lit up by the Jets was kind of was strange. The corner's still frightened me a little. I just feel like right now Atlanta's in its own kind of world in the AFC or in the NFC, excuse me. I mean, they're as streaky a team as there is in the NFL. They have a three game stretch where they score three points against the bear, 17 points against the bucks, 20 points against Falcons. And they explode for 45 and 35 the last two weeks. And so I just, I think we're getting it.

And Kim Newton was not good on Sunday. Oh, I know. So, I mean, that's the thing. It's just like, it's not as if they, they're clicking on all cylinders when they're putting up those points. They're not. I mean, let's a Luke Keeckley touchdown. It just feels like their offense isn't where it needs to be for me to put them

in the same category of a team like the fire. They are, at this point, I think, the ultimate boom and bust team in the NFL. I mean, if they are on that day, they're going to win. And if they're not, they're not. I mean, I just, they, I would not be particularly scared of them in the playoffs because I just don't think that they have the consistency to just go into, at this point, they go into New Orleans. I mean, no.

No, New Orleans is going to beat them by two touchdowns. I agree. And the thing about Atlanta that makes them really dangerous, they're healthy. Yeah. You have a couple guys in the concussion protocol. You know, soon Freeman comes back. Truffant. Outside of that, man, they just have their team, more or less.

They're healthier now than they were at this point last season, which is just nuts. I mean, that is a really good sign for a team that's starting to play better, the fact that they're getting guys back or they're going to have their entire state of players. They have Desmond Truffant. Yep. I mean, they have everybody that they want this year and they did not last season. So that's a huge deal. All right.

Let's stay in the NFC on second down. we've talked about the Rams offense all season just because it's been so odd and it's been so surprising. But Kevin, after that game against the Saints, I think it's time to remember that the defense is what made this team not terrible in recent years and is actually the better unit on this team. So I was thinking about this last night. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. Oh, no. It's just a shock to me that all we went to the Jeff Fisher years and all we talked about was how good. the Rams would be if they ever found an offense because that defense was just swarming. It had incredible talents. I mean, they had, you know,

the way we used to talk about the Rams defensive line is, I mean, they were, if not the league's best, among the league's best. And then McVeigh comes in. All of a sudden, golf, girly, all these guys look amazing. And it's like we forgot the Rams defense ever existed. By the way, they're awesome.

Yeah, they're a really good team. And that defensive line used to be what powered them. That's when Quinn was a monster, which he isn't anymore. I mean, he's falling off a little bit. Donald is still, you know, the best defensive player in the league. But what impressed me most about watching them on Sunday is just that they look like a team coached by Wade Phillips. Yeah. Just in the sense that they're doing the right things almost all the time.

The first Donald's sack, it was second down. The Saints Land ran a little switch route on the left side, which, you know, in man coverage can get people turned around. That's the entire point of it. And they just covered it easily. I mean, just passing guys off, communication, they're so disciplined outside of one big exception. Alec Ogletree is absolutely lost at all times. And he's been very disappointing.

And they need somebody else to play that spot. And I assume they will rectify that this offseason. Outside of him, and he pretty much gave up all the big Alvin Camara plays, they're just such a in the right place at the right time defense. And when you have a couple super talented guys, among a group that plays the right way, that's how you turn into a top two, top three defense. With one big

exception, Alec Ogletree has no idea where he's going at any point in time. $42 million man. That contract isn't going to look really bad if this doesn't get rectified. I mean, I don't know what they can do. It just feels like we're in a year like five of him not knowing where he's supposed to be in any given time. There was a one

play, I believe it was the Robert Quinn's sack after the year in Donald's sack. He ran into Mark Barron. Like just they ran into each other at the middle of the field. It looked like something out of a blooper reel. And that stuff just seems to happen all the time with him. And I don't know if that's going to get any better.

And that contract looks really bad. I mean, he's a first round pick with a ton of athletic ability. And sometimes the NFL, those guys just get way more, you know, leeway than they ever should. We've now had two years where the Rams signed someone to a mind-boggling extension mid-season. Last year it was Jeff Fisher. And they shared its Al-Gogotree. Oak Tree is the Fisher of 2017. At least now every other element of their team is good.

And there's nothing much to worry about. You know, guys like Westbrooks, you know, second-tier defensive lineman for them, just being in the right spot, just playing the run extremely well. That was the impressive part of Sunday is that their past defensive began all season, but their run defense has been kind of middle of the road.

And the fact that they were able to slow down Mark Ingram is so impressive. And yeah, the one 74-yard Kamara run, but outside of that, he was averaging three yards of carry. So the fact that they can kind of retool weekly to say, this is what we need to stop. Let's do it is impressive. And I think that was what really stood out to me on Sunday. One of the best units in the NFL, the Rams defense got Wade Phillips. And we're barely talking about it.

Exactly. And that's just how much attention the Rams' offenses garnered. All right. Let's move on. And let's stay with someone who actually was very impressive in that losing effort for the Saints. And that is Alvin Kamara, who is absolutely ridiculous. America gets the call right side. Alvin Kamera, shaking free.

on the 40. He's running freely down the near sideline. Camara down into the 20 inside the 15 shakes a tackle there and he'll score. Alvin Camara in the Saints have smash and dash. I can't remember watching a game where

one player every time he touched the ball broke at least two or three tackles. That was just insane. Watching him do that and never go down on first contact but also avoid contact. What he did to Tremaine Johnson on that played on the sideline should illegal. And then just hurtling over people like they're not even there. The guy really makes

something happen pretty much every time he touches the ball. And he has become somebody that is one of my favorite players to watch every week. And that snuck up on me. And I think that there are a handful of guys where that's been the case. As the kind of the bigger stars in the league have fallen away, there have been some guys that have just been so enjoyable, but in a way I didn't anticipate. Who have some of those guys been for you? I mean, it has to start with Kamara. Yes. I think he's Number one on the list. Because Kamara, the NFL put this out, the stat yesterday. Kamara is the third rookie NFL history to have 500 scrimmage yards, three rushing TDs,

and three receiving TDs in one month, that month being November. The other two players, first of all, hasn't been done since 1965. The other two players are both in the Hall of Fame. Gail Sares. Gail Sares and Charlie Taylor. Yep. That's pretty good. He's pretty good.

I'm not going to make this comparison because it's a little much. do it, who cares? But the Sares thing makes sense. If you just think about the variety of ways he's used and just kind of the, we're going to give you the ball in the open field, let's see what you do with it. That's kind of what his game is. My favorite part of what they do with him, you know, he'll do some stuff where he'll run a route and eat somebody up in man coverage in the middle of the field. But they'll just let him run a swing route and Breezel dump it to him high,

let him get a little bit of a head start and then just work. And that's amazing. I mean, it's almost like a pun return in a weird way. And I just can't remember, even recently, receiving backs doing their damage that way. You know, even like Levi-on-Bel is more about, you know, let's get you in an option route. Let's get you matched up with somebody in the slot. Camara is, it's much simpler than that. And I think that's been the coolest part of watching it is just such a boiled-down version of how football is interesting and fun.

It's like, okay, I'm going to be better than you in this short area of space. So I wrote a column for the ringer.com today about, on Tuesday, about, how the NFL, the problem is not who wins the awards, the problem is the awards themselves. And so I had proposed a couple of new awards that the NFL could give that could help fans better understand who actually defined the season in the way that defensive rookie of the year may not, right? And one of the Bill Simmons ideas, the one that he threw out there was most exciting player. That's it. It's my Red Zone MVP. I've done it the last couple years. The Red Zone Channel MVP is like, that's my favorite thing. Right. And his,

Bill's contention is that Gronk would have won three of these awards had it been given retroactively. But you just start to think about the number of guys who could win that award this year. I mean, first of all, you obviously have Kamar,

who would be my guess. Kareem Hunt for the first month this season would have been the runaway favorite. Deshaun Watson, for his month of glory before his ACL's tragic ACL injury. I mean, there have been runs here where we would think

where different guys to on the league and I think that's what's exciting about this year. At one point I think Wernard Fournet was the most exciting player in the league. He might be again at some point. He's Jalen Ramsey. Yes, he has been. So, I mean, I just think that the guys who are, there are a long, long list of guys who are standing out.

I don't know how sustainable it is for all of them, but it's awesome right now. Yeah, it's fun. And there are subtler guys to me. I think that a few of the guys that have snuck up on me a little bit, Robert Woods, I did not expect to play like this. He's been much more fun than I anticipated. A few rookies. Carl Lawson has been excellent for Sinty.

He's just a guy who's a fully formed pass rusher at 22 and watching him at various points in the season, even though the Bengals have not been fun, has been great. Ruben Foster, when he's been on the field, awesome. She's like old school, knock people around linebacker that is really enjoyable. Stefan Tewitt has been amazing. And the other two guys to meet,

both on their second contracts, not young guys. but dudes just haven't played this well, Jason Kelsey and Brandon Brooks. Yep. That's my list. It's a lot of interior guys, a lot of linebacker, stuff like that,

stuff I enjoy. But I think there's been a lot of players this season that kind of stepped into the void in a fun way. When the Packer, or excuse me, when the Steelers play, I'm just watching Stefan 2 at play. The guy is just so big,

so strong, so quick. I mean, so it's fun. It's fun to kind of find guys each year that really make it worth your time. And I think that list starts with Kamara, but there's plenty more.

This is good. I mean, the type of athletes, coming into the NFL right now are just awesome for the sport. I totally agree. And I love the fact that we got the Adrian Peterson trade to kind of unlock this version of the Saints backfield. More Alvin Kamara is something we should all have in our lives.

It's just really funny to me. There was so much hand-wringing over the spread offense and stuff and over the past five or six years. And what it actually led to was a bunch of really great athletes who know how to play in space better than any generation in the history of football. And by the way, that's really fun to watch. Yeah, absolutely. And we'll see.

I mean, I think that it's nice that Kamara can be this version of a back and not something else. Because I think that you see this all the time, right? You have a guy that is really talented, really sudden, can kind of burn you down in a single play, but isn't an every down back. And because he's your best option, you give him a little too much work, him getting to work off of Mark Ingram and them having such complimentary skill sets is just a perfect situation. You just don't see it unfold like this all the time. I think they might be the first duo to get 500 scrimmage yards in history, I believe.

Yeah, I mean, they're going to be one of the most productive backfield duos ever. And I think that they're allowed to do that again, because they just kind of fit together perfectly. I mean, it's like a by the way, as I've discussed many times, they face eight main boxes 20% of the time. Yep, that's always nice. Like Leonard Fournette is not getting that. You don't say. All right. For Fort Down, let's turn our attention to some teams that are pretty much out of the running.

And we want to talk about those because I think. that at this time, you know, there are a couple different things you can think about with your team. One, how high is my draft pick going to be? In which college player should I start watching? Two, how much of an aberration is this and how well positioned are we for success very soon? So, Kevin, of the teams that are pretty much out of it right now, who do you think is in the best spot moving forward? Jeez. You know, obviously I've been thinking about this for 24 hours now. is it a cheat code to say the Houston Texans? I don't think so.

I feel like that would be my first response. With Green Bay, I think you're always in the, We have Aaron Rogers, we'll be fine, but that's too easy. They're also not out of it. Yeah, that's true. They're kind of out of it in my mind. But yeah, I think that Green Bay is an easy answer because of Rogers. And I think that the Texans are the correct answer in a way.

Yeah, I mean, we saw that they were a championship game contender when Deshaun Watson was rolling. Wow. That's how, that's how I felt. I felt like they had the chance, but I mean, AFC James game, obviously not the Super Bowl. Yeah, I don't, I wouldn't have gone that far. I would have, I mean, I just thought, they would look that good in, you know,

this small sample size in the beginning of his career. They were only in it get better in November, December. See, I don't, I don't see it that way. Okay. I feel like they're, with all the gimmicky stuff they were doing, and I don't mean that as to detract from what Deshawn Watson did. there's a lot of when we see this again and when we see this on film for a month or so,

it's how we respond is going to change. I think the offense would have slowed down. I don't think it was sustainable, but I do think they probably would have contended to win that division. I think they would have won the division by two games. That's possible. I just don't think that they would, I don't think it would have rolled the way it was.

It would have been exciting and it would have been terrifying in some ways if you're a Texans fan because Watson was allowed to do anything on any given play. But I don't think that offense would have been that level. I just don't. I mean, I don't think it's that crazy to say that they would have a chance to win two playoff games. Because look at the AFC playoff teams right now. Ravens, Titans, Jaguars, Chiefs.

The Texans could have beaten any of those teams. And then, you know, they go on the road and obviously they would lose the Patriots and probably lose to the Steelers. But I'm just saying we've had this discussion for the last month or the last couple weeks. Who's the third best team in the AFC? What I'm saying is it would have been the Texans. Yes. It absolutely could have been. And I think that, yeah, I would say the Steelers,

in the, even with their injuries, by the way. Even with their defensive injuries, as long as they had Watson. So let's talk about that. I feel like that's the other side of what makes the Texans such a promising kind of just ideal moving forward here. Because what, whatever version of him will be back.

Merciless will be back. Guess it was really good. Chedefian clowny. I mean, they have a collection of talent on that defense that we haven't got to see in the last couple seasons because of injury. So you combine that. with what you have with Watson.

DeAndre Hopkins is real good. So that helps. Their cap, they're in a good spot. They're $48 million in room next year. A couple guys that you don't want to see go, Jonathan Joseph clearly. But for the most part, the guys that are contributors to that team,

they're there. And I feel like with all the young guys and with Watson, they become interesting in a hurry. So I feel like they're the ones that will just compete next year right away, even without kind of projection. whatever additions they can make in the offseason. Sure. And like we've seen, I mean, one off season can make such a huge difference for teams.

If they can go out and get an offensive lineman, if they can do a couple things just in the margins, what they have at their core is interesting enough to make them really scary right away. It's interesting to me. Just looking at some of the teams and the total defense stuff like that, I mean, I think that in order to take the leap from good to great, you at least have to show some baseline of competence. this year, and then, especially on defense, and then fill in the gaps. Look at Callais Campbell. I don't think anyone when that, that signing, we all universally praised.

We didn't know it would be along with AJ Boyer, maybe the signing of the offseason. We had no idea. We've seen a lot of those recently where I feel like in the past, the idea with free agency. And Barlow and I used to go out at this all the time. Just the idea that it would be really hard to play up to the level of that contract based how much you get in the open market. And we've seen it happen several times in recent years. With the Giants last one year, but they all did it for one year.

And it's happened with the Jags this year. I mean, those guys have been the best players at their position. And that's what you need to be. And the Rams in a limited way. Exactly. And Whitworth has been that. I mean, you got eaten up by Cam Jordan on Sunday. But for the most part, it's been every dime has been worth it.

And we just don't see that so often. So, I mean, the fact that that's going to happen, you can really get better in a hurry. And I think that the Texans aren't that far away. Well, it's strange to me, especially, you know, remember the lessons that we learned from the 2012 Seahawks, which is good contracts win Super Bowls. It's interesting to me that people view free agency as a blanket bad thing because the problem is not free agency. The problem is bad contracts. Yes. And as long, I mean, I guess you could say that the Jaguars gave too much money to guys like Boyer and Campbell.

But, you know, on the other hand, they have the cap space and they could do it. So judge everything in the context of a team, not the vacuum. And that's the one thing. I think I've talked about this before many times again on the NBA show, which is that Stan Van Gundy was on, I think, Zach Lois Pot, maybe a year ago. And he was talking about the Richard Lewis contract. And Richard Lewis got $19 million to play for the magic. And everybody ridicules it as one of the worst contracts in history.

But Van Gundy's point was, why was it bad? Because we needed that. and we got to the finals with it. That's what we needed Richard Lewis. So it's not an overpay if you need it. It's an overpay if the position is redundant or it's an overpay if the player is just a waste of space and doesn't help you.

If the player helps you get where you need to go and you couldn't find that anywhere else in the draft, it is not an overpay. I think that's a really good example, not only with Campbell and Boyer, because that happened in just the rhythms of free agency. I think those contracts are good. but I think with Marcel Darius making $10.2 million to them next year.

That's a lot of money. And that's hard to live with. But if you cut Bortals, which they're going to, they have $40 million in space, $49 million. Excuse me. They got it. It's going to be fine. So I agree. I think that if you understand just the, your cap health overall and what is and is not

realistic, overpaying for players at certain times can work out. Overpay. There is no such thing as overpaying if it works out. Yeah, I agree. All right, buddy. It's time for your craziest headline of the weekend. What are we looking at? Bruce Ariens could see Blaine Gabbard as a starter in the NFL in 2018.

Is that it? The way he's playing right now, I'd be very, very comfortable, Arian said. So the Cardinal signed William Gabbard because Bruce Ariens saw him as a very intriguing project, which is all you need to know about quarterback evaluation in the NFL in 2017. Guys who are first round picks that are tall and have great hair and are very handsome are seen as great projects.

That's the way we are. It is. And that's not surprising to me. Like Bruce Ariens is the number one like, I have a toolsy quarterback. Let me figure this out. I guarantee you he thinks he could. And I'm sure he feels this is like step two of that project.

I don't know. I, the story goes on NFL.com to say that Carson Palmer's 2017 statistics were similar to Gabbarts, which is true. But the point of being a good NFL team is not to have 2017 Carson Palmer. That is correct.

The point is to have 2014 or 2015 Carson Palmer. The Cardinals are in a weird spot, man. I do not know what they're doing. Their defense is pretty good. Their defense is a lot of pieces on. A Chandler Jones is at a quietly awesome season. But just in terms of overall trajectory,

I don't know where they are. You know how we talked before the season about the plans that teams have? Which team has which kind of plan? Which category with the Cardinals fall in right now? because would it be the tinkers? Because should they be tinkering if Blaine Gabbard's their quarterback

and they don't have any offensive linemen? Do we think Ariens coming back, first of all? See, this is all the stuff that plays into it. I think that Palmer's future, Ariens' future, that complicates this, but it just feels like they should tear it down outside of like three or four guys. And maybe I'm wrong.

And again, players, Joe, pulls a wrench into that. The defense is still good. Yeah, I don't know. I just feel like they're going to be in the, middle ground and that's not where you want to be. I'm a little worried that they're kind of losing their way. A little worried they've lost their way.

Yeah, that's fair. It's over, buddy. Yeah. Like that era is over because the quarterback is pretty much done. Okay, so Arizona has, is 11th, or tied for 9th, excuse me, in yards per play with Atlanta

and Tennessee. The Arizona defense, you can build on that. do you know who's 12th in yards per play just behind? Yes. Who? Cleveland Browns.

They have some players on that side of the ball. Like eventually when you have 11 first round picks starting for you, you're going to have some talent. The Cleveland Browns allow the same yards per play as the Carolina Panthers. Their run defense has been really good. Now that Miles Garrett's back. Less yards and the chargers and the ramps.

I'm putting, I am. the Browns are a contender this year for me. I've seen enough. I've seen enough. Yeah, no, I don't really think the Browns. Yeah,

and like, I mean, I think that's the thing. When you look at the defense, you have those pieces. Chandler Jones, Patrick Peterson, you know,

Matthew and Buda Baker, I think that's a cool safety duo. They've played well this season. You go to the other side of the ball. Name me someone. You can't. I mean, there's absolutely no one except for Fitzgerald.

You're like, David Johnson, obviously. But he's not playing. I mean, so guys on the field right now, there's no one you're like, yes, this is a part of our core moving forward. David Johnson, David Johnson's a pretty good,

pretty good core. Oh, no, that's 100%. David Johnson is on that list. I'm talking about guys currently playing for them. There's no one. There's no one on that offense that excites you. And that's the concern right now.

I mean, the concern in my mind, it's just quarterback. Who the hell is going to play quarterback for them next year? See, that's true, but also who's going to block for the quarterback? Their offensive line has gotten apart over the last two years. So it's beyond the quarterback to me. That's the most important question, but there's more to answer.

Adrian Peterson is still there. I don't know if he's on next year, man. No, that was me expressing surprise that he's still there. That was not a easy guy to build around. That was, oh my God, I forgot Adrian Peterson was on the team. There's still, Chris Johnson. is still the second leading rusher. Yeah, that's a problem.

Again, the infrastructure of that offense is not something I'm excited about. Blaine Gabbert is their fifth leading rusher. All right. It's time for my ringer of the week. And this is a guy who, big name clearly, but I think that if we're trying to find some of the hidden stuff that's made players relevant and made them good this season,

he's somebody who's been good in a different way. And that's Bobby Wagner. And I think that Bobby Wagner's a two-time all-pro. He's not sneaking up on anybody. sensitive player of the year this year. I think he absolutely should. Or could. I mean, I think he should be in the running, is what I'm saying. He should be in that conversation as much as anybody. Who else is in that

discussion very quickly? Clay's Campbell. That's a great question. Clayas Campbell's probably in there. I think DeMarcus Lawrence has fallen off because the Cowboys have fallen off. Campbell is probably the other guy that would throw out there. And the reason that Wagner is in that conversation to me is that as a linebacker, an inside linebacker,

it's tough to have the impact necessary to win that award. And the reason he is in that conversation, this year is because he's done the stuff that a lot of inside linebackers typically don't do. He's been as good in coverage as pretty much anybody. And I know that pick that he had on Sunday. It was nuts. But it's beyond that.

I mean, the guy is just in the right place at the right time. He really makes up for some deficiencies elsewhere in that defense, a slot corner, everything else. I mean, he's just everywhere. Against the run, he's as good as anyone in the league. And then this year, their defensive line hasn't necessarily created as much push as they want just from the front four. In recent years,

Seattle's didn't blitz at all. This year, they've sent him, I believe, 40 times, according to PFF, and he has the second best pressure rate in the league

among per rate stats for an inside linebacker. I mean, the guy is just making an impact in every single area of the game. You saw that again on Sunday. He had two quarterback hits. One was a little outside the pocket.

But the second was on that mark. He's good one, long passed on the sideline. And we're half a second from that not getting complete because Bobby Wagner crushes CJ Best. He has been so good. And it's also, I think teams, some linebackers are productive as past rushers because they're sent to the right time.

They're unblocked. Wagner, even if there's somebody in front of him, he's really good instincts, hands, strength. It doesn't really matter if they send him. He's probably going to wreak some havoc. And that's really impressive for a guy who does everything else so well. I mean, he's been one of the best linebackers in league for years. This is his best season. And that's really saying something.

It reminds me the CX, when you talk about the pressure rate of Wagner, it reminds me, especially when the CX team was really, really rolling, when you looked at their PFF pressure rates, it was almost incredible. Because the way that they bring pressure, Wagner is not going to come in on every play. But when he does, it's designed well and he does his job well. The same has been true for someone like KJ. Wright.

I mean, it's just they scheming. in a way that they put their guys, and I know it's a cliche to say this, but they put their guys in the best position to make a play. Minnesota's my favorite one of those. When there is a pressure play, it's going to work from one of those guys.

The Vikings do that the best in my mind. I still think that they have the best design blitzes and they're timed out the right way. And that's what you see from really well-coached defensive teams. It's not just about like, okay, we're going to blitz a lot. Anybody can do that. It's about understanding when you should do it and how it should work.

So, all right, coming up, Danny's going to let us know if the Seahawks can survive losing another defensive star for the season. Again, maybe not even Bobby Wagner can make up for that. Plus, we've got some lasting impressions to offer from week 12. It's the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer podcast network. Mallory Rubin, deputy editor of The Ringer.com. Joining me today. Now that he's finished gazing upon the poor Zingot himself in his care of magical creatures, class, it's Ringer Staff Writer, and your maister, Jason Concepcion!

And we're here on urgent business. Is it urgent? It's urgent! To tell you about Binge Mode Weekly, our triumphant return to our true home, our true Dragonstone, your earbuds. We are back! Yeah! On Binge Mode Weekly, Jason and I will be taking our trademark deep dive into the topics

that are occupying our minds and hearts, the events of the moment. Love the scholarly expertise and accessibility of Binge Mode Game of Thrones. Then you'll love Binge Mode Weekly, where we'll touch on everything from our favorite books and movies. To the shows that are obsessing us at a given moment. To the sporting events captivating us from week to week. Binge mode weekly starts this Thursday and every Thursday thereafter on the same feat as Binge Mode Game of Thrones. Oh, Thursday. And do, da, da, da, da.

Dun, dun da. Give you that haggard-sized drum roll. Stay tuned for binge mode Harry Potter in spring 2018. Akio binge mode. Protect Heig. Jason, I have some.

Very distressing news for you. Lining up for his NFL long of 53 yards to win it. Good snap. Good hold. The kick on the way for Boswell. It is up. the Pittsburgh Steelers win it. 31 28.

Chris Boswell delivers a career long 53 yarder to give the Steelers their ninth win of the year. It's time to welcome in our good friend Danny Kelly. Danny, how you doing, bud? I'm doing pretty well, man. How are you guys doing? I'm doing great. Let's dig into that Steelers Packers game a little bit.

The Steelers need a last second field goal to beat a Packers team without Aaron Rogers. Are we starting to get a little bit? little bit worried about the fact that it seems like the Steelers play down to every team they come across. Yeah, I was thinking about this last night. I love the concept

of playing down to an opponent. I think, and I was trying to decide, like, is that a real thing? Like, does that happen? Is that a common thing? You know, and so I actually looked up some numbers for it. I think this thing, this Steelers playing down

to their opponent thing started back in 2014. It's probably earlier than that, but They lost to a Buccaneers team that went 2 and 14 that year with Mike Glennon at quarterback. And then they lost to a couple other teams that ended up being really bad that year. And since then it's kind of been like the thing for them. So I looked at, I don't know if this is the way to do it, but this is a way to do it. I looked at games where anyone was favored by seven plus points going back to 2014. And the Steelers actually are kind of mediocre in those games.

the Patriots, as you might expect, are really, really good. They've had 33 games where they've been favored by seven. They have 28 and 5 in those games. Seahawks had 28 games where they're favored by 7. They're 22 and 6. Then you go to the Steelers, and they've been in 16 of those games. They're only 11 and 5. That's a 687 win percentage.

That's significantly lower than some of these other teams. Like the Packers went 14 and 3 in those games. That's not going to take into account the close games. The games they pull out, like the one against, the Colts the one against. Right. I mean, these are games that even if they're winning them,

they're not winning them in impressive fashion very often. Yeah, so I was actually kind of surprised to see, like the Broncos are 12 and 2 in those games. Like, I was actually kind of surprised that it does almost, that actually kind of has happened to this.

There's not just like a narrative. Like, they really have sort of played down to their, to their opponents. And so I don't know, it's an interesting thing. I was going to ask you guys, like,

that actually might matter in these playoffs, considering the AFC, you know, playoff field. I mean, obviously the later you get into the playoffs, you're going to be facing good teams. I think that's the biggest concerns stewards fans have

is why can't they just blow out these teams? I think that there's an element of, when you have individual talent like the Steelers do, and I mean just Bell and Brown, I don't know. Are the Killer Bees, are we retiring that? I don't know. I mean,

because it's just Bell and Brown at this point, right? Rathesberger, I know he threw two picks on Sunday, but he was really good. And that's his second straight game of really putting the ball he's wanted to. I'm ready to put Boswell above above Ben in the Killer B's ranking. I,

it was so, that's what it was kind of strange about the Steelers game to me is that they were bad in a way they haven't been this season. So when they lost to the Bears, right, they couldn't stop the run. And then they're playing against Brett Hunley and they have a couple big plays

given up in the passing game. We haven't seen them give up this season. And then their offense is scoring. I mean, it just, it was a weird game. Again, it just doesn't seem like they're able to put it all together at any point. Every game, it feels like one element is worse than it should be, whether it's Rathesburg

against the Colts, whether it's the secondary on Sunday. So that's kind of why it's strange that they play down consistently because it's never one unifying factor among these games. That's kind of like what we've been dealing with the with the Steelers for a while now, too. It's like they've, in my mind, they're one of the most complete teams in the NFL. You know, they can beat you in all three phases, but there, At the same time, like they're kind of inconsistent with those three phases. And like you said, they don't always come together on the same day.

So that's why they're such a frustrating team. Obviously, they're really, really talented. They've got some of the, you know, obviously some of the best skill position players in the NFL. I mean, that catch by Antonio Brown was amazing. And I mean, they have great defense. You got a great front, you know, front seven or whatever. And it's just weird because, again, like, they just don't always put it all together. It's frustrating.

But we say that, but think about all the teams that don't put it all together and lose. You know, I think that's the difference is that this team is still just going to cruise to a buy. Yep. And for all the nitpicking that we want to do and are they impressive enough, everything else, they're still going to be probably top six in DVOA on both sides of the ball, which I think they're the only team that that's true for. And they're going to just walk into the playoffs and not play a game in the first round. So for all the mediocre teams, it's like, maybe we should just leave the Steelers alone.

That's what I started. Yeah, so I started thinking in the AFC, like, let's leave them alone. And like, there's other, you know, there's other things to complain about in that conference. There are teams, Danny, that are not necessarily cruising to the playoffs. And one of those is your Seattle Seahawks. Pete Carroll confirmed Monday, the camp chancellor's out for the year. You know, the version of that defense we've come to know and love is gone. Yeah, it's a distant memory.

On the offensive side, it's pretty much Russell Wilson. They're right there in the wild car chase, but do you think there's any way they can manage to scrape together a stretch run here that can keep them on pace with Atlanta. I just don't know if it's possible. I mean, I think that, I mean, this is the story with the Cocks, like, and this is the most simplistic way I can put it, but they're going to need Russell Wilson to be great in order to, you know, I think not only make around the playoffs,

but do anything if they do get to the playoffs, because, I mean, their defense just isn't the same. I don't think it's going to be quite as, I mean, it's not going to be quite as good as it has been in the past, It's just they've lost too many guys. I do think they have some depth. And, you know, there's some guys that are some young guys that are playing like Will Griffin, Chicoe Griffin has been really good this year.

And so, I mean, there's some things to be positive about in terms of their depth. But they're just not going to be quite as good. So it's going to be on Wilson. It's been like that the whole year. And I think you've been saying it too, like for a while. Like, you know, you can always count on Wilson to do some crazy things. If you can string together a few games where he just looks dialed in and, you know, doing his thing,

then I think that gives them a chance. That's just kind of how I'm looking at it. I think right now, the last I looked, they had like a 61% chance for the playoffs. And that feels about right. That's based on math, though.

I mean, I think that's the problem here is that we can't look at the Seahawks based on math. The world is now post math. We're not into probabilities. Especially when it comes to Seattle. Because even though their jersey says Seahawks, I don't know what their jerseys say.

No, no, Jersey say the team. Even though they have the Seahawks. Jersey say Seahawks a little bit? Maybe, I don't know. I don't know what Jersey say. I can't even picture it. I don't think that they do. All right, even though they have the Seahawks logo on their helmet,

this is still not the Seahawks team that we know. I think that's the issue. I'm looking at the jerseys right now. I don't, I don't think they do. Wait, maybe they do. Is it in the corner there? Yeah, I'm seeing, I'm seeing. There are words.

They're just too small to make out. Seahawks. Okay, there we go. I got it right. I have no idea. Seahawks. They should put it on the other. They should put C and Hawks on different sides.

That's a really good point because that's what people say. That's a good idea. But anyway, I'm now the mayor of Seahawks, Twitter. I just took over Seahawks' Twitter. They have a really, really tough schedule from here on out too.

I think that's a big factor. Obviously, they got the Eagles this week. Then they got the Jaguars, which that should be just a fun offensive game for everybody involved. I sent the Rams. Danny.

then they got the Rams, then they got the Cowboys with Zekiel Elliott, he'll be back by that time, and then they finish out with the Cardinals. And obviously we saw the Cardinals can kind of surprise people at times. And so, yeah, to me, like, it's a coin flip at this point

and what the Seahawks are going to do this year. Again, I think that if Russell Wilson gets hot, they can be as good as, or they can be at least good enough to make a pretty good run. But if we see Wilson make turnovers and do something, let's see, It's hard to put it. It sucks to put it all on him because of what he's done this year.

But it really, to me, is what it's come down to you. I mean, I did the math yesterday. He has a counted now, I mean, I know, Clark, you were talking about this. No, we don't do math anymore. No more math. We're talking about this a couple of weeks ago, I think, but 82% of the Seahawks overall yards, Wilson is a counter for. Danny, why don't you take a guess? Whose record is he going to break?

I already know it. I looked it up. So it's no guess. Oh, God, damn it. Just say it out loud. It's funny. John Kinnah, that's Kittena back. I've always thought of

John Kitten and Russell Wilson is similar players, so this makes sense to me. Think about it, though, if they don't make the playoffs, how weird is it going to be to watch an NFC playoffs without Green Bay or Seattle? Oh, man. I know, and this is the weirdest year because I can't remember the last time.

It's like out of memory at this point when I was like worried about the Seahawks not making the playoffs. You know, obviously that's a spoiled fan speaking right there because the Seahawks are just so reliable every year and all that. But yeah, this series actually feels like a toss-up going forward. So it's kind of a new territory. It's strange that the two best teams, the two most reliable teams,

aren't going to be in the playoffs, but the NFC playoffs are shaping up to be unbelievably exciting. Oh, yeah. It's just a kind of strange landscape. I mean, what I've enjoyed, but one that still is kind of hard to figure out sometimes. I was going to just say one last thing I'm kind of working on is a little bit of a plug, but there we go. The NFC, cut it.

The NSC South, the last few weeks in the NSC South is going to be a bloodbath. I'm writing about it today. It's a, I mean, these teams face each other. There's like the Saints play, I think the Saints play the, the Falcons twice in the next. Yep. Next couple games. So it's just going to be crazy. It's going to change everything.

I mean, it's down the stretch, it's going to be. It is, bloodbath is the right way to put it. Atlanta's biggest thing right now is that they have the tie break over pretty much everybody. because their schedule down the stretch is rough. So, all right, Danny, thank you very much, buddy. We'll talk to you again on Friday. All right, before we get out of here, we're going to offer you our lasting impressions from week 12.

These are the things that just stuck with us from the weekend. For me, it's that it just seems like we're entrenched in a golden age of wide receivers. It's unbelievable. And it starts at the top, obviously. And you have guys like Julio Jones and Antonio Brown, Julio taking over that game against Tampa. Antonio Brown doing something that defies all of our understanding,

of time and space and physics to give Pittsburgh that game more or less. But then it goes just down further in those other tiers. What Keenan Allen is doing right now is absolutely remarkable. I mean, the guy has two straight games of at least 150 yards. He's incredibly fun to watch stylistically. I mean, what he brings every week is fantastic. Adam Thielen is a former practice squad player, and he's a guy that can take over any single game.

The guy on the other side of the field during that game on Thanksgiving, what Marvin Jones can do on any past down the sideline. And what he can do for Matthew Stafford is, again, just jumping over corners and conjuring plays out of nowhere. And we've talked a lot about why this has come about. You know, just the issue of, or not the issue, but the rise of 11, a 7 on 7 and how much passing there is from the time these kids are 12 years old now. It's very, very 10,000 hour theory.

Yes. And it makes total sense. It is very fully formed. those theories, but to watch it in practice, the theoretical elements of it become the second most interesting part of it all. Because just the visceral experience of watching these guys, the body control, just everything about how fine-tuned their understanding of how to play this position and how to move has become, it really has made for a thrilling product pretty much in every single game

when you have one of these players on the field. And that's what's going to stick with me. watching Brown and Julio go out every week and debating who's better and who's going to have a better career and where they fit all time. I love that kind of stuff. And it just feels like right now

it's as right for those conversations as it's been in a long time. I have sort of a different take than normal. I talked a lot of people this weekend who all had the same thought, which was that they, maybe they're casual NFL fans, but they cannot get enough

of these group celebrations. and I just think it's really funny. Amanda Dobbins, who works here, stopped me in the holiday of the day and said that she's now an Eagles fan just because of the celebrations. Amanda's not a massive NFL fan. And I've heard that from a couple of people.

And I just think it's a good lesson for the NFL because we saw, you know, kind of how viral the celebration for the Eagles on Sunday went. I think it's a good lesson for the NFL that trending towards fun is a good thing. And they fought any sort of celebration for so long

they liberalized and it's become a phenomenon. I just think the next time the competition committee meets and they want to do some dumb shit rule that makes the game less fun. Just stop yourself and say is the fan going to enjoy this? And in the case of group celebrations, they are.

And I just think that the NFL needs to learn a lesson here. Yeah, I rank them midseason and I think they're great. And it's almost better when they go horribly wrong. That's the best part. is that there are any outcome is on the table with these, and they're often just enjoyable. So, yeah, I'm with you, buddy.

All right. That's all we got. We'll be back on Friday to get everyone set for week 12. As always, thank you for listening to the Winger NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network. Thanks, guys.