The Ringer NFL Show - Part 2: Troy Aikman on 21 Years in Broadcasting, Scouting the 2018 QB Class, Finding the X Factor, and the Highs and Lows of His Career | Flying Coach With Sean McVay and Peter Schrager

Episode Date: June 30, 2021

Sean and Peter are joined once again by Troy Aikman for Part 2 of their conversation. They discuss Troy being asked to scout QBs for the 2018 draft, including Josh Allen, Sam Darnold, Lamar Jackson, and Baker Mayfield; Sean and Troy’s key to finding the X factor in a QB; the highs and lows of playing QB in the NFL; the QB he enjoys chatting with the most before games; his most embarrassing moment on the field; the lowest point in his career as a broadcaster; and where Troy is at in his life now (1:31). Finally, we finish the show by answering a few listener emails (52:49). Follow 'Flying Coach' here on Spotify! Email Sean McVay and Peter Schrager your questions at [e-mail]. Or leave us a voicemail at (818)-253-1572‬ and it may be featured in our next episode! Hosts: Sean McVay and Peter Schrager Guest: Troy Aikman Producer: Craig Horlbeck Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The postseason is here and the Ringer NBA show has you covered with real ones, group chat, the answer, and Ringer NBA post game. Check out the Ringer NBA show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Flying Coach season two, episode seven. You've probably listened to the first part of our conversation with Troy Aikman. The second part really gets into some nitty-gritty stuff on not only sports media, but also Troy's career as a broadcaster. I thought he laid it all out.

Sean McVeigh. Your thoughts on part two of the Troy Aikman podcast as we're about to dig in. Yeah. I mean, again, kind of mentioned it last week, but the range that he has is so impressive. And the perspectives, the, you know, just those experiences, like you mentioned, over 20 years in that seat, but then being able to go back, reflect on his time as a player. I thought it was awesome to even be able to hear about his draft analysts' experiences, traveling around before the 2018 draft, getting some insight on the quarterbacks.

We talk about those kind of things that really help guys separate themselves because there's so many special players. But there's a very few small group. There's a small group of those men that really have elevated themselves into the upper echelon of the league. And we're going to hear what Troy really thinks helps those guys do that week in and week out. Part two, guys, you're going to love this. That whole Dallas market, I'm fascinated with your place in there because you live there all year round. And one of the things I always respect about you, you don't take shot. but you're critical and you're honest when they ask you questions about the cowboys.

And it can be very easy for you to be pro cowboys and pro whoever the hood coaches and pro Jerry. But like you'll call it like it is and you'll make some waves in that market. Is that just who you are or is that 20 years post playing that you feel comfortable you can do that? It's not, it's really, it's not who I am. That's for sure. I mean, I'm not, I'm not some wallflower.

But I'm also, I also, I'm not one who just wants to be. you know, stir it up and be, and it's just not. But I do feel that, hey, I wish that I could be Roger Staubach. I wish I could break out the pom-poms and be the Cowboys cheerleader, you know. And, and but I'm also the lead analyst, you know, for Fox. And so when I comment on something, I feel like I've got to be a little bit more authentic. Not that Roger's not, but I have to be a little more authentic and kind of call it as I see it. Now, you know, it's a franchise that hasn't been in the NFC championship game.

Forget Super Bowls. They haven't been in the NFC championship game, you know, in 25 years. And so there's not, there's some things that aren't being done, you know, maybe the way that they should be in order to ensure, you know, more success. Not that getting to the NFC championship game is easy. It's not. But so when I'm asked questions, maybe I know too much. Maybe I know too much about the way that organization is the structure of it.

But I try to be respectful. I try to, you know, but at the same time maintain at least my credibility on a national platform and not have people say, you know, that I'm being a homer. I mean, I'd love to see the Cowboys be successful. And, you know, I got a lot of relationships within the organization. It'd be great. but if they're not doing something right or if they're losing, then I try to call it. And so that's kind of how I've done.

I think a lot of Cowboys fans, they see Michael Irvin on NFL Network. And you can do that as a studio analyst, right? I mean, you could be the cheerleader. You can't do that when you're calling games. So it becomes a fine line. And I don't enjoy that part of it. I'll be honest with you. But I do feel that I have a job to do.

That's why, Peter, I think, even going back to when Troy's started talking about the early parts of his career, what you also realize is what a competitive league this is. And when you look at the runs that the 49ers had when my grandfather was there early on, the runs that the Cowboys had when Troy's leading the way, what New England's done. You know, Pittsburgh's obviously, you know, was outstanding with Terry Bradshaw and Chuck Noel.

And then they've won one with Mike T and with Bill, but with Bill Cowher. But it's amazingly competitive. I can remember this was when I was just old enough to start knowing what the hell was going on. That NFC championship, the cover of Sports Illustrated that week said the real Super Bowl. That's right. It was the 49ers versus the Cowboys because then they went on and they got after the Chargers pretty good in that Super Bowl. But that was when I was just young enough to know what the heck was going on. I was, I wasn't even, you know, I was really young. I was, you know, I don't even going to say when I was born, but when they started one in Super Bowls, it was before

I was born. But it was that 95, but you know, to your point, though, Troy, what you realize is why everybody loves this game and how competitive it is because they're not too far removed from a couple years ago when we go to the Super Bowl. We're playing them in the divisional round. They had beat Seattle at home, you know, to come to our place and you're one game away from a conference championship. And that game was tight, but it's, God, this game is so competitive. It's tough.

And, you know, I could attest to that just thinking, you know, when you start off doing pretty well here, you go to the Super Bowl, your second year, you know, and people say to you after the game, oh, you'll be right back. God, not so fast, my friend. Yeah, it's more competitive now than it's ever been. It's, for lack of a better way of saying it, it's a little bit like basketball in that it's the last five minutes of the game as far as, you know, the games are all tight, they're all close.

And what players are going to make plays at the end of those games to win? And the margin of victory is not much. It's a thin line. And there's so much changes in the game from one part of the season. I mean, you think about a game early in the season, you lose, and you feel like, oh, my gosh, you know. But then you look back on that six weeks later, and it didn't disrupt any of the goals or the objectives that you have for your team.

It was just a little bit of a, you know, stumbling block along the way. But there's so much that can change more so than before. I mean, when I was playing, it was us, it was the Packers, it was the 49ers, it was a handful of teams, the Giants at times within our division, Washington at times, Philadelphia as well. But there were a handful of teams that you knew was going to be one of these five, six teams that are going to win the Super Bowl. And now, you know, it's really anybody's guess. It's a, I don't need to tell you, these guys would want to be head coaches or get into the coaching profession. I think it's as tough a time now as it's ever been. the standard to which you're held, and yet the margin of winning and losing is so small compared to what it once was.

It is a tough, tough profession. It's hard to win consistently as a team, you know, and the quarterback obviously playing a big role in that. I think that's a great transition to another question I have before we get to the one about play colleague that Sean and I have been asking everyone. But before we get to that, you meet with all these quarterbacks, but I thought it was really fascinating. before the 2018 draft, Fox and the NFL network kind of merged powers. And you were on the draft coverage. And Troy, I think this might have been one of the first years he did it. You went on the road and like scouted the quarterbacks out of college.

And I remember you got such a juice out of it. It was Darnold. It was Josh Allen. It was Josh Rosen. And I remember you coming back from Wyoming and being like, this kid has a cannon, this Josh Allen. I don't know if it all works out of it. Best arm I've ever seen. That's what you said.

Best arm you'd ever seen. How much of a kick did you get out of being able to be? that role where you're evaluating the talent at a college and kind of speaking on it as far as a quarterback guru, if you will. It was the best. It's the only time that I worked the draft. And I mean, which is a daunting prospect to, to, I got called a couple months before the draft and asked if I would work it. You know, I said, you know, hell, Mayotte's been working this thing, you know, for the last 350 days, you know, you want me to get 60 days under my belt to do this draft. I said, there's no way. There's no way possible I could.

be ready to do that. And then they said, well, hey, how about if you just look at the quarterbacks that are expected to be first round picks? And so I did that. I ended up doing the whole first round, but I toured around, studied these guys. It was the first time to do that prior to them getting into the NFL because I watched the college game, but not that closely. It comes up on Saturday. I'm watching some games, but I'm usually spending Saturday doing my own stuff, getting ready for my broadcast the next day. So I don't really pay that close of attention to the college game. And then to be able to go watch these guys, study them on film,

I didn't meet with them in person. I watched them, though, in person. And then I still have all my notes from those guys. It was Baker Mayfield, Josh Rosen, Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Mason Rudolph was one. And so there were those guys. And to have an opinion of them, prior to coming into the draft and just, you know, using it as an opportunity to say, hey, you know,

what were my thoughts of them at the time and what are they doing now? And so I have a real interest in following these guys' careers. I will say this, though, I'd like to get your thoughts on this, Sean, because I think that you can watch tape and you can see guys that can move, you can see guys that can throw, you can see all those things. Everyone can see that. You can see that, Peter. I can see it. Sean can see. you know, you could pull in a high school kid. Say, tell me what you think of this, this quarterback. And everyone's pretty much going to come to the same conclusion.

And then you start saying, okay, well, who's the guy that's going to be the franchise quarterback? Who are you going to take? Are you taking Baker Mayfield? Are you taking Sam Darnold? You're taking Josh Rosen. I mean, who is it? Well, to me, what separates the great ones from the ones who don't make it first is you got to have good players around you.

There's no question. You got to have good coaching. But when it comes to the player himself, there's something within each guy that they either have it or they don't. So the question I keep asking, guys like Sean McVey, are how do you know? Can you know? It's easy now when you sit in a room with Aaron Rogers and say, oh, yeah, yeah, he, he has it. I mean, you know, well, yeah, because he's an MVP.

He's won three MVP's, you know, won a Super Bowl. I'm talking about when they're coming out of college. you know can you sit and can you tell who that guy is that has the it you know and because that's the hundred million dollar question troy that's that's that's it i mean does he want to be great is he a great leader is he unselfish do his teammates like him is he the first guy in the building can he handle success can he handle disappointment you know all all these things can he process information you know i mean there's a ton that goes into that and i've asked i've asked a lot of of friends, you know, hey, how do you make that decision? And that's the part, that's the part

you can't figure out. So when somebody says, hey, what did you think of Sam Donald or what'd you think of Lamar Jackson or what did you think of Baker-Macon? I can tell you exactly what I thought of them as their physical skills, because I saw it on film. I never sat in a meeting room with them and asked them questions to say, this guy, this guy is going to be something. And so that's the part that I miss out. But I ask you, Sean, when you're evaluating a college quarterback and you're trying to decide whether or not, you know, he has the ability to be the guy when you're talking about a first round pick, are you able to kind of, you know, nobody's perfect, but are you able to kind of have a pretty good feel as to how he's wired and whether or not he can make it at this league?

Yeah, I think it's such a huge point. I was going to ask you, it's funny when Peter, you asked the question. You are going to lead me into a similar question for Troy just based on when he did that kind of that deep dive into those guys. Well, there's a couple things that stand out to me. And it's going to be a long-winded answer of saying, shit, if I had the answer too, I'd have a solved a lot of problems. But I think the first thing is, you know, at its core, and I've said this before on a previous episode, Troy, and I think you'll relate to this and appreciate it. You know, we're looking for a leader at the quarterback position. And what do all good leaders do? They make people and situations they're a part of better.

They just do. And that's what the great ones have done. I love it when our scouts go to games. And I'm not as interested in what we can all evaluate on the all 22. I want to see when they just went three and out three series in a row, what does this guy look like with his interaction with his teammates on the sideline? I want to know when shit is not going good, all right? Are you going to be that guy that we talked about earlier that people can look to

to say, I just got to believe when things are not going on. schedule. Like, that's to me where I think the great ones really separate themselves. Football, different than basketball, soccer, you know, hockey. It's so much more structured with just the rules and the way that the game is played in terms of, all right, every play ends whether the ball goes out of bounds, incompletion, somebody's tackled, there's a score, whatever it is, there's natural breaks in the play that don't necessarily allow some of the creativity that you see from these basketball players or even hockey with the free flum. form of the way that the games played.

Well, if you said, when do the really rare quarterbacks express themselves, especially nowadays, it's sometimes, all right, it might be in the framework or the pocket when things go outside the rhythm of the play. You know, Tom does it differently than, you know, than Patrick Bahomes and Aaron Rogers are doing it, but all of which is beautiful and makes them elite at what they do. You know, you see some of the things, and I've talked a lot about the excitement with Stafford, that's one of the things I'm excited about him is, all right, when it breaks down, getting through progressions, being able to move and manipulate, keep your eyes down the field.

Lamar Jackson and Russell Wilson are doing it at such a high level, Kyler Murray, but there's different ways. We talked about Josh Allen. I mean, some of the stuff that he did and what Dax's been able to do. These guys that you're talking about are the premier players at the position. They have a creativity that illustrates itself when things go a little bit off schedule. And then, oh, by the way, when it is on schedule, they're as close to automatic as it gets. And I think that's where the guy's self.

separate themselves. I think it's a great point because I was going to say the one thing that I would look to when everything's on schedule like Sean's saying, you got great protection, guys are running their routes, you drop back seven steps, hitch, ball comes out, you know, you're accurate. Those, everyone, all 32 guys should be able to do that. But the one thing that I've seen in the last probably five years that when you start dialing it down a little bit to say, okay, this is why this guy has a chance that like you said, Sean, when it's not perfect and all of a sudden you're dropping back and you've got a guy in your face and you've got to kind of reset and just be instinctual. You know, be instinctive in the pocket and you're able to reset and get the ball out quick and adjust to the thing that happened, you know, because so much of the game is kind of played in that arena. Yeah.

That tells me, okay, this guy is instinctive, and I think you have to be instinctive to be able to play. And then there's others that when things are not going particularly well or there's pressure, there's a free rusher, and whatever it is, and they don't react the way in which you have to react, then they don't have the level of success that you need. So I think that's a real key part of this, like Sean said, that to be able to be instinctive when things are not particularly going well. And the other part of this, I will say that my experience from when I was playing, and I say this because I know how my career changed when Norv Turner came in my third year,

that if you're afforded an opportunity to work with a Sean McVeigh, to work with a Matt LaFleur, to work with Kyle Shanahan and Norv Turner like I was able to, and there's others around the league, that when you get a chance to work with those guys who make the position, make the offense quarterback friendly, I mean, you have a fighting chance. And there's a lot of quarterbacks that have come through this game that either didn't have the right people around them, the teammates, or weren't put in the proper position by their coaches.

And they left the league regarded as bus. And yet, if those same quarterbacks were afforded the opportunities that I was or that Joe Montana was or Steve Young or, you know, a number of other guys, am I saying that'd be Joe Montana? No, I'm not saying that at all. But they would have come out of that. they would have said, hey, he was a good player. You know, I mean, he had a nice career.

And, you know, not everybody gets to work with Bill Walsh. And not everybody gets to work with Sean McBey and Sean Payton and those guys. And, man, if you're a young quarterback and you get a chance to do that, you ought to count your blessings because it goes a long way and determining whether or not you're going to be successful. So interesting because I remember Alex Smith, I think, had eight different offensive coordinators in his first eight years. And it wasn't until he had some consistency before he got it going. Josh Rosen's a guy right now. I think he's had a different head coach every season since his high school career, which is, you know, is that Rosen or is that nature or nurture? Was it Rosen or was it someone else?

You can start looking at that stuff. And, uh, yeah, well, let me tell you, you get beat down. You as a quarterback, you get beat down. And if you're, that's why I think Sam Darnold getting out of New York is good. And, you know, you lose enough games and you have enough bad things happen. And who knows? Maybe they're all Sam's fault. My guess is or not.

But when you lose and you lose at the way, you lose at the level that I did my first two years, if there's not something positive that happens pretty soon, it's hard. It is hard to come out from underneath that. So I pull for all these quarterbacks. There's not a greater job, really, I don't think, on the planet than being quarterback in the NFL when you're having success and the team's doing some good things. But, man, it is a miserable job. They can talk about money.

they can talk about fame, they can talk about all those things. It's an all-consuming profession. And if you're not winning, then it's, to me, there wasn't enough money to make it work. I mean, it just, it was a miserable life when you're not having success. Really quickly, the quarterbacks now in the league, get to the production meetings with the coaches. You meet with Rogers five, six times a year. You get to meet with Brady. Who's the guy that you look forward to just talking ball with?

Just like we're talking ball right now or when you're talking with the coaches. Forget the personal stuff, but just X's and O's getting into. and ball. The guy of the quarterbacks, I've, I've really enjoyed my time with Tom Brady. And it was really more this year. You know, I've always had a good relationship with Tom, but this year because he came over to the NFC, normally we would have them once a year. And this year, I had a number of Tampa games. And there was a level of trust. And so we had a lot of really great conversations. And some of what I enjoy, I enjoy the football part of it. and talking about that.

But Tom showed me a different side of himself this year. And, you know, some of the frustrations that he was going through at different times. And in some ways, I know John Madden back when I was playing at the end of my career, he kind of was my therapist. I mean, I'd go into production meetings and I'd say, oh, John, you know, let me just tell you what's going on here. And we wouldn't even talk about, I mean, he didn't say, hey, what player are you going to open up with tomorrow?

You know, what do you think? I mean, it was an hour of me just kind of, you know, getting some stuff off my chest and I'd lock out and I just felt better, you know. And I am now with it being my 21st year, I guess. I'm not saying I was Tom Brady's therapist by any means, but in some ways I am some of these coaches and players therapists where they're able to, if they, you know, because there's a level of trust.

and it's good. And I think that when that happens, when a coach or a player kind of lets their guard down and is just open and raw and honest, I really appreciate that because I've had enough good in my career and I had enough bad in my career. I can run the gamut. I mean, I know when it's good and how that feels and I know when it's bad and how miserable that is. And I really pull for all these guys to have success because I want them, I want to, when you, when you wake up on Tuesday or on Monday after a loss, as a quarterback, and I'm sure as a head coach, too, it's a pretty sinking feeling. So, Troy, we like to have fun on this show, too.

And, you know, so I've started this segment that I've jokingly said I could fill the whole damn podcast with some regrettable play calls. So I talked about a couple of some of the tougher memories that I've had. And so you've had all these great things that have occurred. If you said, all right, this is one of those plays that you're thinking to yourself, you know, I just knew that wasn't a good decision. As soon as a ball left my hand, anything that comes to mind for you of all the success, there's got to be a handful of things that you're saying, man, that was, I've had a lot more good than bad, but this was one of those deals where, you know,

I just knew better. Well, I had a number of throws. I had a number of throws, yeah, that as soon as, you know, you haven't even, the ball hasn't even left your hand yet. You just say, oh, God, this is not good. But my low point, Sean, probably, you know, as bad as my rookie year was, I said we were 0-11, my second year, because now you've got to start taking some responsibility for why the team's not any good.

You know, you can't just say, hey, they were bad before I got here. We're still bad. I mean, this isn't my fault. And then the second year, you got to start taking a little ownership for it. And it was, my second year was even tougher than my, my rookie year, even though I'd won a few games as a starter. So we're at the, probably the low point of my career where we're just not playing very good. We're losing a lot of games. And, you know, I don't know that I had a whole lot of confidence from the coaching staff.

I don't know. I think Jimmy was still sitting there thinking, oh, we traded the wrong guy. Why did we get rid of Walsh? You know, what the hell's going on here? You know, Aikman can't hit anything. He's not thinking that anymore, baby. Not anymore. Not anymore. So, yeah, we were in a two-minute situation in Texas Stadium, and I'm calling out the play, blah, blah, blah. And I got underneath the guard to get the ball snapped.

I got underneath the guard, and the guard says, hey, Daddy, it ain't me. You know, you're at the wrong guy. And I know that, I know Jimmy's sitting over there going, Jesus. I mean, are you what the hell's going? I'm sure he thought I was the dumbest quarterback that he'd ever had. So that was probably my low moment when I didn't even know who the center was, and I lined up under the guard for the snap. You know what, though? That reminds me, though, of how much goes on at the position, you know, and I've heard Bill Walsh, anybody that's ever done it, which I certainly haven't at the highest

level, there's so much that goes on in such a fast-paced deal, especially in these two minutes. And I thought it was great that, hey, this guy just wanted to, the seventh Super Bowl. Tom could look back on even the two-minute drill when they're playing the Bears earlier in this season where you got so much going on, making sure the protection straighten up,

calling the play, the hand signals, all right, watching the play clock. And then you're thinking, oh, shit, is it third or fourth down? I know. There's so much that goes on that when it's going fast, I mean, I can't tell you the amount of times

early on just calling plays where you're saying, you know, and you've been a part of doing some of the games where I'm sprinting down the sidelines about to pull hamstring to take a time out. because you get cut off with the headset and stuff like that. But if it happens to Troy and Tom Brady, it could happen to anybody. John, we're calling a Seattle playoff game years ago.

Yeah. And it was before the half. And things were going along pretty good. Maybe it was in the third quarter. I'm not sure when it was. But Seattle has the ball down in there, and they're down seven points. You know, I mean, they needed a touchdown.

It must have been in the second half. It's kind of late. And all of a sudden, or maybe, no, they needed the field goal. They needed the field goal. And so a touchdown would have been great. But if nothing else, they had to at least get the three points. And so here they are and they're lined up and they're going for it. And we're on the air.

And I said, I couldn't believe it. I'm thinking, they're going for it on fourth down. And Joe's usually on top of that. I'm thinking, man, Joe's out to lunch. And I said, I can't believe this. I said, are you kidding me? They're going for it on fourth down. I mean, I got to settle for the three points.

And Joe looks at me and says, yeah, but it's third down. It's not, it wasn't fourth down yet. And you know what? Oh, my God. No, that, that, Sean, in my profession, that's like throwing the game losing interception. You know, I mean, you weren't. you want to crawl in a hole. And it's, I mean, all of a sudden, it's like, I'm in a full sweat.

I'm thinking, oh, my God. You're thinking, is this thing on? I said. Yeah. No, what I meant was, and you'd like to be able to have some fun with those moments. You know, Joe tries to help me out. Like, if I say something that's kind of dumb, which happens, that Joe will subtly try to, you know, clean it up or whatever it is.

You'd almost rather, you know, okay, can we just kind of have a little laugh about this? I'm an idiot. You know, okay, hey, sorry. You know, I was, you know, but yeah, that's, those are not good moments. I'd rather throw that game losing pick. Hey, you know what? It's a lot easier to do the Flying Coach podcast where we can edit some dumb shit, even doing this, right? Like, I'm telling you, we were telling a story the first episode.

No, you know, on like a much, much significantly smaller scale. when you're just talking, you know, you realize like, hey, man, when you're in front of the stage and you're talking for three and a half hours in a row, inevitably, I don't care who you are, there's going to be something you say something. The first episode, we're telling stories. My grandpa was the head coach for the Giants at the, it was, I call it the Music City miracle. And Peter says, that's the miracle at the Meadowlands. I said, what kind of idiot am I?

You know, of course I knew that. You know, and I'm telling a story about my grandpa. And I'm alluded to the dang Titans Bill's, you know, situation. And I'm not even talking about when Herm Edwards picks up the fumble goes the other way, when my grandpa's the head coach. But those things happen, you know, it's just you're not on a pedestal in front of everybody. And that's, you know, and the funny thing is they've always happened, right? I mean, they've always happened.

But now it used to, when I first got into this business, if you had a moment like that, you just kind of brushed it off and say, well, hopefully nobody heard it. you know, and you just kind of move on. Well, now, you know, with Twitter, I mean, you know, you know, somebody said, hey, after the game, someone said, hey, Aikman, your name's trending. I was like, oh, don't tell me, I don't want to hear that. I want to be trending as a broadcast during a ballgame. One of the things I love about you is your vulnerability and your honesty.

I think I read an article once about you in your broadcast career. You talked about the Tyree game, and it was one of the greatest games ever played, and you're feeling afterwards. Do you mind sharing that story a little bit and kind of how you got over the hump afterwards? Because, Sean, for a reference, Troy and Joe called the Patriots giant Super Bowl, and it was arguably the greatest game ever played. And Tyree made, obviously, one of the greatest plays in Super Bowl history. Troy, you were on the call, and you're feeling afterwards after being in front of the mic. Yeah, the game was in Arizona, and the Patriots were undefeated going into that game. were going to be, you know, making history had they been able to win the game, the giants,

the underdogs. You know, they come back, they win the game and the Tyree, David Tyree, helmet catch and all of that. And I went back. I was staying at a separate hotel from the rest of the Fox people, but Fox was hosting a party there at the Fox Hotel. I went back to my hotel. And the plan was when I left for the stadium that day that I was going to change and get cleaned up a little bit. My wife and I, that I was married to, at the time, we were going to go to this party. And so I got to the room and I just said, hey, I said, let's just go to the restaurants. I don't know if I'm really up for going to a party. So let's just go to the restaurant, have dinner and just kind of see where we're at. And I go down and Jaworski sees me. So he comes over to my table.

And, you know, Jaws is all excited about the game. And he's like, hey, Troy, that was great. that was unbelievable. Are you kidding me? And he said, yeah, you know, Jaws, it was good. And he goes, that catch, you know, on the helmet. I mean, who would have thought? I mean, you know, and I said, yeah, no, it was a hell of the catch, Ron. And, you know, really happy for the Giants.

And it's probably about how I was saying it. He says, man, what's wrong with you? And I said, ah, I said, Jaws. I said, nothing's wrong. I said, but I, what did I do? I said, I didn't do anything. I said, all I did was talk about it. You know, I said, you know, I've won this game a few times.

And I said, and if I had played, I'd be up right now partying, you know, until we hours in the morning, you know. But, you know, all I did was talk about it. And he kind of, Ron looked at me, you know, very quizzically and like, he just couldn't believe what I was saying to him, right? And I don't know if Jaworskier would remember this or not. And he walked off and I said to my wife, I said, you know, I said, I may have just called the biggest game that I'll ever call in this profession. I may look back on my career in broadcasting, and this may be the biggest game that I ever called. And here we are, you know, just an hour after the game ended. And everyone's ecstatic and what a great game and great ending and all that.

And I said, I could not be more miserable. I mean, I could not be, I felt no sense of accomplishment, you know, nothing. And I said to her, I said, man, if this is supposed to be the pinnacle of this profession, I mean, I'm in the wrong profession. And I was just really down, you know, and I will say, I don't know what switched. I really don't. I just know that that was rock bottom for me in this profession.

I talked about being rock bottom when I was a player, my second year's quarterback with the Cowboys. But after that game was when I hit bottom and didn't have any mistakes in that game that I can think of or, you know, there wasn't anything that happened like I was talking about a moment ago. But after that, I don't know if maybe just getting that off my chest, changed my perspective. But I've never felt that way since.

And there's been games now when we do big games or we do a game and I think that I was up to the challenge or up to the task of the game or match the intensity of the game. I say, hey, you know what? I feel like I did my job. And there's a sense of accomplishment that comes with that. There's still not, there'll never be the feelings you get when you're in the arena and you're actually doing it. Yeah.

But now I do get satisfaction for my job. And I don't know why it changed all of a sudden. But it changed after that Super Bowl. And I'm glad that it did because if it had enough, I just was not going to be able to continue to do it. And I mean, you want to walk away from your jobs feeling like you've done something, you know, worthwhile and noteworthy. And I do now when I leave the stadiums. That's awesome, though. I mean, I just think, you know, Peter, you talked about it before you even asked the question,

anybody that's great at what they do, there's a strength in the vulnerability. You know, I think there's this false narrative. that, oh, everything's all perfect and stuff like that. If you said, hey, what's the one thing you've learned since you get into a leadership role where you're exposed to a whole lot more information? Everybody has problems. They all weigh the same. There's just a lot of people that are broadcasts in the public spotlight that have to feel

like you've got to put on this narrative. But the people that are really the most secure with themselves, like a Troy Aikman, are secure enough to be honest about some of the vulnerabilities that we all have or different issues. And I think that's when you can really. really live the life you want to live. And I mean, I don't want to speak for you, but it seems like that that is accompanied with a peace of mind that, you know what, man, I really, I got the values that are going to guide my life, but I'm not really worried about pleasing others as long as I feel like I got the right things that are in alignment. And I care about the people that care about me

unconditionally. Yeah. No, I think that's true. I think it's well said. Troy, we end every podcast with the question of what advice you would give a young coach. In this case, I'm going to look at you, not as a quarterback, not as a coach, but as a broadcaster. There are a lot of quarterbacks, and we see the headlines now. It looks like Mark Sanchez is going to get more involved in it. Robert Griffin, Alex Smith is going to dip his toe, and we know Drew Brees is joining the studio show at NBC. What would be your one piece of advice for either an NFL legend like Drew Brees coming

into the broadcast game or a quarterback of a less esteemed career, but who might have a lot to say like those other guys? What would be your advice to a quarterback going into broadcasting as they start this part of their life? I think one is is what we talked about earlier in the show in that I mean you got to do everything really in sound bites. I mean, you can't, you got to be real careful into thinking you're going to, you know, really break down, you know, these particular schemes and no more time than you have. What happens is you walk, you try to, you know, the job for the analyst doing a game is you're supposed to be done talking before the snap of the next play. And so you start down this path, and then all of a sudden the games played much faster now than it was when I first got into this product. So now there was never a lot of time.

Now there's even less time because these coaches like Sean and, you know, like Chip Kelly back when he was in the league, you know, they play an uptempo pace. You know, they really apply the pressure on the defense. So for an analyst then, you have even less time to talk. So my first thing would be, you know, make sure you kind of have a feel for where you're going with your comment before you ever even start. And you have to have the ability to be able to kind of wind it down. But beyond that, beyond that, I think that one of the things that I think was helpful for Tony Romo, and I don't know what they said to him or what they didn't say to him, he and I have not had that conversation. But I think one of the things that was helpful for him was they didn't try to tell him, hey, this is how you do this job.

You know, because you wind up getting, it becomes a cookie cutter. If you say, I remember when I first got into this profession, that my producer said to me, after one of the games, he said, hey, we need more line play. We need you to cover more line play. And I said, really, why's that? And well, that's the way we do it. And that's the way that Matt Millen did it.

And that's the way that John Madden did it. You know, I said, well, look, I mean, if you want more line play, then you guys probably hired the wrong analyst. Sure. Because I'm a quarterback, and I look at the game from the outside in, whereas Matt and John, and I've talked to John about this, Madden, He watched the game from the inside out. So he would focus on interior line play and then he'd broaden out.

I look at a game like I would as a quarterback. I'm seeing coverage. I'm seeing where's the blitz coming from. Okay, where's my hot? You know, where's the vulnerability within this scheme? And that, you know, so I said, you know, look, if you want O line player, you want defensive line play, I mean, I'll get into some of that stuff. But that's my strength is this other stuff.

So our broadcast is going to look and feel a little bit different. And I think that what CBS seemed to do with Tony was just said, hey, just take the ball and run. You know, just do what you want to do because Tony does some things that conventionally, if you were writing things out, that they'd say, no, no, no, you can't talk over the play. That's the play-by-play guys, Jeff. You know, and so, you know, he's been given kind of free reign. And I think that that's the part that's probably been refreshing for a lot of people. So I would have answered this differently prior to Tony becoming an analyst.

So I would say to Drew Brees and these others, hey, just do what you feel. Give them some general guidelines, see how it comes out, and let them try to show some of their personality and who they are and put their own stamp on it. I think it's so fascinating, Troy, because I also am in a studio show every day with Nate Berlison, who there's a cookie cutter way of doing studio shows and being an analyst, and he does in that. Now, what's interesting to me is the guys who are, breaking through right now, Tony Romo, Nate Burleson. I'll say Pat McAfee, who's a former punter, but has his own platform and speaks freely. These guys aren't necessarily being coached to do it

the way that necessarily this guy was 20 years ago. And I think that's a changing dynamic in the broadcasting world, too, where it's just be yourself. We hired you for you. And no, there has to be some authenticity. I know that there was a stretch there, and I get it. I mean, when when, when, when, when, when You're a quarterback and you're a young quarterback and you want to be really good. You know, who are you watching? You're watching Aaron Rogers. You're watching Tom Brady. You're watching Drew Breeze.

You know, you're watching these guys like, hey, what can I emulate within my game, take advantage of some of the things that they're doing well? And that's life. I mean, that's what we all do. We all look up to different people and we want to pull the good things that we see from them. And in broadcasting, back when John Madden was, you know, ran a lot of years where he was the best in the business. And guys all kind of then started taking on the same cadence as John Madden and trying to be John Madden and the way that he viewed the game or the, you know, and I think that I just think in life, you have to be who you are. And so I, if I was in charge of those guys coming into it, and I'm anxious to see how Drew does, you know, and I think he'll do great.

But just kind of, you know, he's watched enough games and he's kind of had his own opinions as to how. he would do the job. Let's see what it looks like and let them do his thing. And then if you got to kind of clean up some things and then you do that. The other thing too that I think is is so obvious, you know, when you look at that importance of the rapport that exists like you and Joe have established. You know, you see Chris and Al, I think, you know, you look at what Jim Nance has done with Tony. Like you can't deny just it's a comfortable listen with the groups that are that have a good rapport, no different than a rapport between a quarterback and a center, a quarterback than a receiver. I mean, how important is that in your mind for just, you know, the amount of experience that

you and Joe, like, how good is that you can even ask him, hey, what do you think about that? It is good to be able to have people you can lean on too, right? Well, the great thing for Joe, Joe and I are, we're really, we're really good friends. And I think that that comes across. And so we, you know, we've had a lot of, we've had a lot of similar life experiences while we've been broadcast partners, you know, and we both have daughters. We both went through divorces around the same time, you know, and all of that. We, we, we, we, I don't golf anymore, but I used to get out and we, we'd, we'd go on golf trips together. So there's a lot of history with he and I, to where we're really good friends. And I, and I think that part of it

comes across to where people say, hey, there's, there's a real ease when, when we hear you guys, but yeah, because I know where he's going to go with something, or I know when he wants to talk more on something and he knows the same for me. But the real key, I think, it's like as a quarterback having a great offensive line and having guys who can catch the football as an analyst doing games, the guy who really sets it sets it up for you is the play-by-play guy. And if you don't have, if you don't have that, and they're hard to find, you know, great play-by-play guys are hard to find, you know, the Al Michaels, the Joe Bucks, the Jim Nances, you know, those Those guys, they've been doing it a long time and there's a reason and they're hard to replace.

And so going and finding an analyst and I don't want to dismiss what I do, but I think you can go find an analyst far easier than you can go find a great play-by-play guy. But yet that play-by-play guy is going to determine the success of that booth. You know, when we talked about quarterbacks and why some quarterbacks leave the game and are regarded as not great players or didn't live up to their ability, I think just in my experience in broadcasting, there's a lot of broadcasters who have gotten into this profession who weren't paired with the right guy. And it just doesn't work. And what I've learned is that a lot of teams, Peter, you probably know this, a lot of play-by-play and analysts, they don't get along. You know, they don't get along or they don't really have much in common because there's sometimes an age gap between the two. And for Joe and I, we're really fortunate that we get along.

We're really good friends. We're right around the same age. And it's been fantastic. Well, I also find it interesting. If you want to go meta sports media, and I think a lot of the listeners like this stuff, there used to be a time where it was every guy who's not going to become a professional player's dream

who wants to get in sports media to be the play-by-play guy. You wanted to be the next, you know, whoever you ought to chip carrier, you wanted to be the next, I'm going blank on. What's the Dodgers guy? I don't know how I can even forget his name. Oh, Ben Scully. Like that was a three year.

Chick, Hurons, Chick Huron, Jerry. Johnny Moe. Like, he wanted to be those guys. But I think a lot of the kids

coming out of college now, they want to be an opinion guy. They want to be the one who's got the podcast or the talk show or the, because to truth is, when you get out of that college as a play-by-play guy, you're doing women's volleyball the first three years. And then you're doing minor league baseball in Topeka, Kansas or wherever else you,

and it's a long grind to get to the end of, have fell for most guys. Now, there's the exceptions. Joe Davis and Noah Eagle on CBS, these guys are rising stars. They're going to be great. But it's a lot easier to come out and have a hot take or to come out and say LeBron sucks and get paid to do that than it is to necessarily be doing college golf for the first 10 years of your adult career, you know? Well, the thing that when I didn't, appreciate it when he was covering our games, and then when I got into broadcasting, but you take a guy like Pat Summerall. Who was a player, who was a player.

Who was a player. And then he's doing play by play. And I know there is no way in hell I could do play by play. I mean, I think it is, I mean, the good ones are, you know, they make it look easy like all great ones do in any profession. But think about this. You remember a few years ago, Peter, Dan Fouts was doing play by play. Was he really? Yeah, he was doing, he was an analyst.

for a while. And then he was doing, he did play by play for two or three years. Really? And here, could you imagine, could you imagine being Dan Fouts's and analyst in the booth with him? Telling him. And then you're trying to tell him about quarterback play. And he's looking over it. I mean, he could do the Vince Scully thing and just be a one-man booth. Absolutely. But I always thought, and I thought Dan was good doing play-by-play, but I thought, man, what I thought of him just got elevated that much more, because to go from an analyst to doing play-by-play. There's just not many guys that are capable of doing that, but he could do it, and he was pretty good at it. But, yeah, Pat Summerall was a Hall of Fame broadcaster doing play-by-play.

Unbelievable. That's the thing about all those guys you mentioned, Troy, and Peter, is those guys that are doing the play-by-play, it's their range. I mean, you look at Al, you look at Joe Buck, you know, you look at Jim Nance, Mike Torrico's. These guys are doing different sports. I mean, thank goodness. I don't know anything about anything except for football. You know, I don't know. like in all seriousness, it's the range that's so impressive. You couldn't do the decathlon there, Sean, if you had to? No. I'd figure it out, Peter.

No, but, you know. I don't know if people know what I do, but I've had people say, hey, you know, back when Fox had the U.S. Open, they're saying, hey, are you going to do, are you going to do any golf, you're going to broadcast some of the golf tournament? I'm thinking, you know, well, you think I'm going to go and, you know, my 18 handicap is going to go show up and talk about, you know, what Tiger Woods is doing wrong in his back swing. I mean, give me a break. No chance.

It's awesome. It's not the way it works. No. Troy, this has been an incredible, incredible afternoon with us. I feel like we can keep going, man. This has been the easy. This has been, you're the man, Troy. I appreciate you taking the time.

You know, when he was talking, when he was talking earlier, Peter, about, you know, whether he maybe would ever dabble. And as he thought about the GM thing, you know, he looks like he could still play. He came and visited us a couple years ago for camp. And I mean, he's freaking jack. I'm thinking, man, I thought I was still a decent shape. Get away from me, man. You're making me feel bad about myself.

You know, and in the last, you know, what happened, this was after I saw you there at the camp. But when COVID hit, I figured people were going to go one or two ways. I mean, most people were not going to be better off, you know, when this whole thing ended. And I decided, you know, I wasn't going to be one of those. So in the last year and a half, I've really just dialed everything in on workouts, nutrition, you know, sleep, everything. I've, it's the best that, you know, I'm reminded, Babe Laufenberg once said, you know, when you're talking about older athletes and they say, hey, I'm in the best shape. So think about this, Sean, as your players report to training camp. When you hear a guy say, hey, I'm in the best shape of my career, it probably means.

they're hanging on because they're old, right? I mean, you don't hear 23-year-old say, hey, I'm in the best shape of my career and all that. So when I say I'm in the best shape of my life, really what I'm saying is I'm definitely old, but it's the best I've, it's the best I've ever felt. You know, I mean, in every way. And so it's been, it's been really good. I'm, I'm doing some good things and eating good and exercising and doing all that and hoping that in 20 years it paid some huge dividends for me and I'm still able to keep up with Peter and you. Well, Sean, just to give you the light on it, I know I'm working at Fox Sports.com since probably 2013, 2014.

Aaron Andrews used to go and do the World Series for two weeks and Tom Brennamen and would come over and do play by play while Joe and Aaron went to the World Series. So I was probably like the eighth sideline reporter for Fox. literally eighth. And nothing against the games I was doing, but there's a lot of NFC South when the NFC South wasn't exactly the Bucks and Sains lighted it up. And I get a call from our bosses, John Entz at the time. And he's like, hey, you're going to do two games. You're going to do Steelers Cardinals and you're going to do Seahawks Cowboys in Dallas with the A crew. And, you know, I could, I could have shit a brick when I got that call. I was so nervous. And now we've had mutual

friends, Troy and I, and I think he respected my work from afar, but we had a mutual friend and a guy named Jordan Bejant that we both work with professionally, and Jordan was always great to introduce me to Troy, but you know, who am I? Sean, when I tell you, Troy could not have been more welcoming, more built me up as much and more encouraging, and has been that for my career ever since those first weeks. I can't say enough about this guy. So Troy, I just, I don't never tell you enough just how important you are to me. And it really, we appreciate you coming on this thing. It means a lot. Thank you.

It was great being on. And I will say, you know, Peter's a bit of a savant himself. You know, I mean, you were on the Patrick Mahomes train before, you know, that thing even left the station. I mean, I remember going into his first year to start. He played week 17. In fact, you talked up Patrick Mahomes so much that offseason. I work out and I put on good morning football. I mean, I got eventually, I do get tired of seeing Peter's face, you know, every morning when I'm working out.

But my wife goes to him. He was talking. He was talking so much about Patrick Mahomes. I'm thinking, how is he, why is he saying all that? So I went and pulled up his week 17 start just to see. And I, you know, there were some things I really liked. There was something, again, I didn't see him playing college like I talked about earlier. But I said, I don't know how you come out of this game and you say, oh, this guy's a sure

talent. He can't miss guy. And but Peter was so, and then he, you know, we all know what Patrick Mahomes has gone on to do. And the other part of this is I was talking to Peter. Sean, I knew you as the offensive coordinator in Washington, and I was impressed. I mean, really loved your offensive mind. And when we had those conversations about the offense and Kirk Cousins going into those games.

And but then I hear Peter says, hey, he's interviewing for the Rams job. And I said, really? I said, Sean's interviewing for the Rams job. He said, yeah, I said, wow. It just seems like, it seems like maybe, you know, it's a little early, you know. And Peter said, Troy, I'm telling you right now, if he interviewed. for this job, he will be offered the job. And I said, really? He said, 100%. If Sean interviews for this job, he's going to be offered the Rams job. I mean, I know him. This guy's unbelievable. I mean,

and so I don't know. I mean, I'm sure there's some misses along the way. I don't know of a miss that Peter Schrager has had when he's come out and he's told me something, not always on the air. He's told me some things. And I think it carries a lot of weight. I think Peter's pretty I really have learned to trust your opinions and your thoughts. And I know you're connected to a lot of people. But yeah, you got a skill. I appreciate that. That means a lot.

Go tell your wife that and then see if she wants to see you in the morning. There you go. Here's the one skill. I know. Truth is, the Mahombs thing came from people I trusted. It was from Andy Reid. It was from Brett Veach to GM. And it was from Matt Nagy who had spent all year with him.

And like, you have no idea how good this guy is. He's going to light it up. Like, they were so confident in them. That's cool. But my biggest miss, and I never delete the tweets, I was really, really, really, for some reason, I thought that Russell Wilson had no shot in this league coming from his height and being a third round pick. And when I would hear people raving about Russell Wilson, I was, and I, to this day, I'll eat it

every single day that I had never been more wrong on a player than Russell Wilson. Well, I'll follow up on this Russell Wilson thing. So we didn't have them that whole year. We didn't have Seattle this whole rookie year. So the first time we're going to have them is in the playoffs. game. And you remember, Sean, that they signed Matt Flynn that offseason going into that year. He was going to be the starter. And then all of a sudden, the third run pick. Russell Wilson ends up he started from the very first game of the season. I couldn't quite understand it. I'm like, man,

how do you do that and not at least go with Matt Flynn to start the season, see if he struggles, and then if he does, now go with the young kid that we know or we think we feel good about. But then I went into the production meeting, Russell came in, so the first time to meet him, and within five minutes of talking to him, I said, I totally get it. I mean, I get why they started this guy day one. You know, I mean, he was just so locked in on everything. Of course, you know, at that time, unlike you, he had played well throughout the season, too, but it made total sense to me then. But, yeah, you've done some, you've been on the limb on a few things. You've been right on most of them.

No one's perfect. So, yeah, it's good. Troy, thank you again. So cool. I appreciate this. Hey, appreciate you guys. You're the best, Troy. Thanks, ma'am.

Gosh, Sean, it's so good. I'd love having Troy on. And, man, we went two full episodes, a solid two hours with an NFL legend. But gosh, he showed vulnerability. He showed honesty. And if you're a young broadcaster or anyone looking to get involved in the media side of football, that is a stage of wisdom you're going to get. from anybody and gosh, how lucky are we to get it from Troy Aikman, one of the best who does it.

Yeah, it's amazing. You know, I think one of the things that goes, you know, I guess not enough attention is made to people that possess incredible emotional intelligence. And it really struck me of how emotionally intelligent Troy is, you know, the self-awareness, the empathy, you know, the ability to still have the charisma and presence to communicate to us. But he just struck a chord on so many different levels. And I thought it gave some great insight. into why this guy is just a stud in every sense of the word. Yeah, and I'm not being dramatic here, but you and I get along and we've got this great dynamic.

And gosh, imagine having 21 years together, what he and Joe Buck have and the life stuff that they've gone through. He mentioned it. They've been through divorces. They've been through having daughters. They've been through all the ups and downs so that when it gets to Sunday, it's almost second nature. And that's why it's such a comfortable listen.

And I think you're right to say what you said. Nancy and Romo, they similarly have that great dynamic right now. And of course, Collinsworth and Al, they do as well. And those are the top teams. Those are the guys that we all aspire to be and who we like listening to on those broadcasts. No question. Sean and Shrags have a long way to go. Long way.

Long way. But we do have a great producer. We know that. His name is Craig Horlbreck. We're going to bring him on to the podcast right now. Craig, you have been dialed in this entire flying coach season. And you've been providing us with reader emails and voicemails. Let's bring you on here.

Troy Aikman, Part 2. What was your favorite? part of the Aikman conversation. I think it was just how vulnerable the guy was. I mean, he's been, no pun intended, through the ringer, I feel like in his life. And he just feels, he just seems so comfortable and happy. You know, like, I want to be as happy as Troy is when I'm 54. That's good. No, it's great. He's content. There's just, and what comes with that is a comfort when you're talking to him, right, Craig? Like, I thought that really, you know, thought that shined. And that was a good pun you had right there, buddy. Yeah. It's not the first time we're just. It's not the first time we

through the ringer it is and let's go to the emails. And as Bill Simmons used to say, these are my readers. So Craig, take us away and give us some reader emails and the voicemail. All right. So this is Nick from Scotland, a Rams fan of for 35 years, he says. I am interested to know if there are any changes that you have made to your weekly routine as a result of the pandemic that you want to retain once all the restrictions are lifted. This can be a question for both of you if you want. I think just the ability to efficiently utilize technology. while not minimizing the importance of the interpersonal relationships that are so paramount

to being developed in person. You know, for example, us being able to jump on this pod has made it so much more convenient for us week in and week out because of what we've learned through Zoom, whereas I don't know, pre-pandemic would we have felt the comfort in getting something like this off? So there's a lot of things where you can efficiently utilize teaching platforms in a good way while still finding that delicate balance of being in person with guys. And so that is to be determined. But we've already done that with kind of the draft meetings, the way that we were able to do that.

I think what you realize in the interview processes, that was a really big deal is being able to get a feel for people without necessarily having to fly them in. But I don't think you want to minimize the importance of what can get done in person and how really I think vital that is to get in a true feel for the essence of who people are at their core. Yeah, for my industry, it's actually, it could end up being a really bad thing because they showed how cost efficient it is to do things on Zoom. And it also showed how easy it is to just be on remote. And I think that's my fear because I think there's nothing better than being at these games. There's nothing better than being in studio with people and having that natural chemistry. So it's nothing as far as what I learned. It's just that as an industry, sports media, there was a way to do the same thing. things that we did, if not the same quality level, but at the very least on air and the audience was accepting of it at a far cheaper cost. And that included not being at the games, calling games

from home, and then also doing television shows like you watch ours on Good Morning Football, but you could see around the horn, you could see PTI. Those guys still aren't in the same studio together. And I don't know. Maybe the viewer at home doesn't know, but I hope that that doesn't become the norm. I hope that we all do get in person again because there's nothing like the magic of being in person and really be able to bounce things off each other. I agree. All right. This next one is from Charlie in San Jose.

He says, Hey guys, this question is for Sean? How involved is a coach who calls offensive plays like you or Kyle Shanahan on the defensive side of the ball? Or some coaches more hands off at practice, more hands off in games, or vice versa. Yeah, I think it's a question for each guy that operates a little bit differently.

But I do think it's important as the head coach. You want to make sure that you are responsible for understanding. and being able to potentially problem solve in all three phases while still empowering your coaches to do their jobs. I think the worst thing you can do is feel like you're trying to have your hand in every single thing. You want to let guys do their job, but you also have to be, you have to have enough oversight and understanding what's going on that the players have confidence. If you need to step in and solve a problem, you're capable of being able to do that if that's what's necessary. But finding that balance is something you strive to do. But I think at the end of the day,

you know, you want to keep doing the things that help you. you get a chance to become a head coach, but not at the expense of losing sight for overseeing the entire team. You know, having a relationship if you're an offensive coach with the defensive players, being involved in the kicking game. And I kind of talked about this in a previous question that was asked a few episodes back, but I think being intentional about understanding what's going on, being able to communicate with the other players in that language, you know, so same way that Rahim Morris is talking to Aaron Donald and Jalen Ramsey, I'm able to echo and articulate those same things

so they know it is important. The same way that Joe D. Camillas is talking to Johnny Hecker and to Matt Gay, I'm able to speak that same language and the same thing with the rest of our coaches. And so I think to each his own on that, but I do think it's important

to have an understanding. And really, it helps increase your knowledge in a big picture perspective, which can only make you a better coach as well. Would you ever step in and make a call in a crucial point of the game on defense or no? Yeah, I would say this. There's a, you know, what I think people misunderstand is it's like, you know, it's a one call and then there's no dialogue.

There's a constant ongoing dialogue that exists between coaches when they have that headset on that's an open line. And so there's constant dialogue. Okay, in this situation, what do we like right here in this third down? All right. It's second down. We're talking about if they convert or if it's a third down. And so there's definitely a free flowing dialogue that exists. You know, there's this narrative, like if you're an offensive play call or defense or if you're the special teams coordinator, you know, you're not having.

any sort of involvement in it and or you're not having any sort of feedback and input from the other coaches you know that's part of what the best staffs do there's a collaboration you know there's a lot of good things that have resulted and our offense having success that was a suggestion of another coach that i might have just sent the play in but i wasn't the one that hey it spurred the thought process you know i can i can go through a handful of examples of that and then on the other side with the defense but the best coaches i've been around understand how to make definitive decisions, but also collaborate and connect with their players and their other coaches to really make it the best it can possibly be. That's all we got. We got no voicemail today.

This is the double, this is part two of Aikman. We couldn't get it done. We'll be back next week with a voicemail. So just the emails. Just the emails. In closing, Sean. The inbox might have been appropriate for this week then, just the inbox. The inbox would have worked. Thanks again to Troy Aikman, who gave us two hours of his time, over two episodes was maybe our most introspective guests yet and really just shared so much about his life, his career, but also his wisdom and means the world to both of us. As you can listen in this podcast, I have a strong personal connection to Troy and Sean, it seems as though you do as well. Yeah. No, and I'll tell you what's been fun from every single guest that we've had on,

even starting where it was just us talking from the first episode to all the episodes since, You know, we're learning. I think that's one of the things, you know, you're learning from these guests. You're having fun. But then there's also those moments where, man, that's a, ooh, I better write that down. And I feel like that's been a really rewarding thing. But we've also had fun doing it. This podcast is about urgent enjoyment, Peter.

What do you think about that? I think it's the best podcast going. And I appreciate your urgent enjoyment. And Craig, I appreciate all your work, too. I say it every time. Guys, I'm having a blast doing this. It's some of the most fun I've had in my entire professional. professional career and couldn't imagine doing it with two other guys. So thank you earnestly for

for making this so good. I feel like today's stuff with Troy just was the icing on the cake. It's been great. Peter, you've been awesome. And Craig, you've done such a great job. And it's really been great connecting with you guys on a weekly basis doing this. Let's do it again next week, guys. Flying Coach, we'll be back with another great guest.