The Ringer NFL Show - Predicting the Top 10 Defenses for the 2024 Season

Episode Date: June 11, 2024

Steven Ruiz is joined by our newest NFL writer, Diante Lee! They predict who they think will be the top 10 defenses next season. Hosts: Steven Ruiz and Diante Lee Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal and Conor Nevins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Have you ever wondered about the meaning behind your favorite song lyric or why certain melodies make your skin tingle? I'm Cole Kushner and these are the kinds of questions I try to answer on Dissect, a podcast that dives deep into one album per season examining the music, lyrics, and meaning of one song per episode. I've dissected full albums by Kendrick Lamar, Radiohead, Tyro the Creator, Beyonce, Kanye, and more. Our latest season just launched all about MF Doom's Mad Villany. Listen to Dissect wherever you get your podcast because great art deserves more than a swipe. Hello and welcome to a regularly scheduled episode, but a very special episode of the Ringer NFL show. And it's special because of who's joining me in the co-host seat, making his debut on the feed, at least as a full-time employee, is Deonté Lee.

Deonté, how are you doing? Excited, man. Excited. I feel like I probably had this conversation five, six, seven times over you with the rest of the guys on the staff, with the editing team, the producers, and all that. So I don't want to beat it to death. but I've been waiting for this day for a few months now, as you know. So I'm just glad to finally be here and we can get going and talk about all again. Here's some good news.

If you mess up the show, you won't get blamed. It's my first time in the host chair because I'm going to get blamed for everything if this is a bad show. But hopefully it won't be. And I don't think it will be because you're one of the smartest analysts I've been following for the last couple of years. You want to tell us about your background and what you've done over the past couple years in this space. Yeah, so working at the athletic the last two years, which I'm sure people are familiar with if they follow this show since I've been a couple times. I've been writing for the last like handful of years, I guess half decade now, PFF, the athletic, freelancing for the times, things of that nature. And then I coach

locally. So in San Diego, I've been coaching for like the last six, seven years, going into season eight as a defensive coordinator, played backer, basically my whole life, played at SAC State out here in California. So this has been my life in one facet or another, basically, since the year 2000. You're beating the allegations. Like me and Solac, we don't beat the, we didn't play, we didn't coach at a high level. You are beating those allegations. And that's why I wanted to bring you on for this episode.

We're going to be ranking the top 10 defenses for 2024. We're going to be projecting the top 10 defenses. So what happened last year doesn't matter too much. It's all about what's going to happen this year. And one of the reasons I wanted to bring you on is because you have been covering not just the league, but the evolution of defense and the evolution of scheme on that side of the ball. I want to ask you before we get started what your own philosophy is as a coach

and if you could draw a comp to an NFL defense or an NFL coach, I know there's not a lot of overlap with what those guys are doing and what you're doing at the high school level but can you give us just an idea of how you run your defense? God, I'm going to invoke a name that I don't know if there are warm feelings on right now.

I know he's kind of working on a little bit of personal self-reclamation right now but Brandon Staley I would say I know Better game management. Better game management? Right.

And honestly, I mean, as a coordinator, I don't know if there's really too many holes to poke, you know, with him as a coordinator, right? And I'm thinking more like, you think about like the public sentiments that we've heard from them in terms of eliminating explosive plays, right? That's always number one is how can you keep offenses from getting big chunk plays, right? The data bears it out. The more almost the plays you get, you know, we all have EPA number, success rate numbers, all those things. The more likely in offense is to be successful by getting chunk play. So you want to take that away first. And obviously in the NFL, that's taking away the deep pass, you know, keeping teams from getting yards after catch.

So I would say, Brandon Saley on one end philosophically, I would say, like, in my heart of hirts, if you turn on an NFL defense and asking me what I want them to look like on a play-by-play basis, I would say the D'emico Ryan's 49ers era is probably what you wanted to look like in terms of just like the swarming, the level of energy on the field, forcing turnovers, being able to play four-down defense. you know, I'm that kind of guy, you know, man ball for lack of a better term, you know, you know how we're lining up, you know where the past rushes are, you know who our linebackers are, where the pass rush is coming from, or where the blitzes are coming from, the playing zone defense, trying to keep people getting explosives and, you know, stopping the run by just having more physicality at the point of attack than you do as an offense. I love to hear it. I love a physical defense.

And, like, I had one issue when I was putting together my top 10, and it was weighing a defense that I think will stand to do well over an 18 game season. Like they rely on a system. And every week you know what to expect. I'm thinking of like the old Seattle defenses under P. Carroll. Even like Buffalo under Sean McDermott, not a ton of curveballs thrown at you, but they're going to play their stuff. Their fastball is one of the best in the league and it's reliable. So how did you kind of weigh that silo defense versus a more bespoke defense, a more game plan defense, so to speak, where you don't know what you're getting week to week.

You might get a heavy dosage of band coverage. You might get some disguise zone. get some too high, you might get some one high, those defenses, at least in my opinion, tend to work better in January, whereas the systematic defenses kind of get exposed against better teams. So I wonder where you fall on that philosophical line. You know, it's funny, man, I know that you and I talk basketball a bit. Obviously, I know you've been covering basketball for the ringer, like in much greater detail, I would say it was last year or so. Like, I would liken it to like Mike Boodenholzer and like all those old like spurs trees guys.

Like in the regular season, they're playing the same pick and roll coverage every time. You're giving up the same shots every time, right? Because you're playing like, over the aggregate, the data bears out that if you play a certain way and prioritize taken away, these key factors, you're more likely than not to be successful. So like the Legion of Boom, to me, I think falls in that type of category, right? You think about that era of defense. Everybody knows what the coverages are. You know who the players are that are going to be on the field and how they want to play the run, how they want to play the pass. And they're just basically playing the numbers game of, you've got to win 50, 50 balls on the perimeter. And our six foot three corner is better

and whatever receiver you have out there. Right. So that was kind of the way that they played. And I think that what was borne out over time, especially as there was a little bit more attrition in terms of talent, is that when you don't have ways to change gears, it makes it much easier for you to be exposed, right? Dan Quinn in Atlanta, I think, was like a perfect example of that.

Not that there's anything wrong with what he is schematically, because you look at what the time was in Dallas, even with how things kind of exploded in the playoffs last year, and you take the data over the time that he's been a defensive play caller, and it's pretty unimpeachable, right? High pressure rates, get a bunch of sacks, you force turnovers, you play tight coverage. The data bears out that that's the way that you want to play defense theoretically.

The issue is that, I think, to your point in, getting into the playoffs, and you're maybe seeing a team that you had in division, and now it's the third time playing you this year, the 12th time playing you over the last four years or whatever the case. Right now it's just easier to pick holes, especially when you don't have the guys that can match up, you know, and play one-on-one defense.

So to me, when I think about the defensive coaches that do the best in the postseason, you think about D'Amico Ryan's and putting together game plans in San Francisco and what it looks like, you know, in Houston right now, you think about Steve Spagnolo, obviously, in these Super Bowl runs of late. And really just what the Chiefs defense has been from the moment that he's taking the job, right? And the way that they're able to get very specific in terms of game plans. You think about the reason that Mike McDonald got hired to be a head coach and then all these guys off of his coaching tree in Baltimore. or just being kind of snagged to go called defenses in different places across the league. Vic Fangio being another example, I would say, of teams.

I think there are a lot of franchises that are looking for guys that can be very specific in terms of taking away explosive plays in the passing game. And I think that, you know, for as much as we love the Legion of Boom era, the reason why we see a greater spread of defensive styles now is because you have to acknowledge the fact that if you stay one way and play one way, you are going to get exposed. the minute that you don't have the matchup advantage. So see, this is why Deontes is a coach and I'm just a guy who just, you know, yells into a mic and criticizes coach because he thinks about this stuff, like at a higher

level. Me, I'm like, ah, I don't want any of those styles. Like, Sean McDermick get that defense out of here. Give me the good stuff. Give me like the wink martindale. I want the, I want the sickos defense. Like, we're not going to get into some of these guys like wink martindale or Brian Flores, who I know you're a big fan of and him blitzing all the time.

And even like Sean McDermin, you could throw on that list because to play as much nickel as that guy plays, no matter who's on the field, you can put three tight ends on the field. He's put in, exactly. He's put in his five corners out there. Like, even that takes a little bit of, you know, the sicko mindset. But with that Shane Bowen in Tennessee, I think's another good example of that. Like, they do some of the most underwrite guys, yeah. It's ridiculous. Schematically, it's ridiculous. There are very few people who are willing to do some of the things that these coaches are willing to do. I wish we had enough time to get into those guys, but we don't. And before we start and get into our top 10, I wanted to

remind the listeners and you, Deonte, about the top 10 last year. And this is by EPA. We had the Browns, Jets, Ravens, Pats, Chiefs, Cowboys, Bills, Steelers, Saints, Falcons in that order. I think half of those teams we left off our list. So we're going to get into why those teams were left off and why the teams that we did include were included. But first, let's start at the top. I wanted to start with your rankings. That's how we're going to structure the show. We're going to go by your rankings because you are the defensive expert. I will concede to you. and then I'll just reveal where I had those teams on my list and we'll talk through those teams. So without further ado, let's start. Let's start with your number one team.

Which team will have the best defense in 2024 next year? I think this probably feels like a bigger swing. This will probably feel like a bigger swing to hear off the back than I think it is when you dig into the details. My number one team for 2024 is going to be in New York Jets defensively, right? And then you just start looking at the personnel for starters, all pro corn. I think that they're one of the few defenses across the league that just has like no weaknesses across the entire depth chart, right? I love their linebacker core. Quincy Williams, one of my favorite players to watch weekend and week out.

Obviously, you have Quinn and Williams in the middle, arguably, you know, the most impactful defensive tackle in the league or on that short list, that short handful of guys that are, you know, consistently productive in the passing game and in the running game down in and down out. They have a young rotation at edge rushers. I think if there was a, if there were holes to poke, it's. just that there's not an all pro talent there yet. But I think that everybody feels confident in the way that Robert Sala can coach guys up to get after the defense, you know, and Jeff Holbrook and the

rest of that staff. And then to me, I think schematically, they do a lot of the things that I like to see in a defense, right? When they want to play man, they play man as well as anybody in the league. It just so happens, right, that the defensive system that they run calls for a little bit more soft zone shells when you get spread sets. But if they need to play press man, obviously we know what sauce gardener can do in tight coverage when you need them to in a pinch, right? They do get home in terms of pressure, one of the top teams in pressure and converting pressure into contact, right? We were talking about that pre-show, right? Like, I like to look at quarterback hits, knockdowns, and sacks, and then divide that by total pressures, right? And I think that a lot

of the best teams in terms of pass rush are able to convert at about a 20 to 25 percent rate. And the jets are pretty regularly meeting that in almost every split you do, zone coverage, man coverage, blitzes, not blitzing. So that's the reason why I feel so confident in them. You know, it's that great kind of mesh of coaching staff, style of play and personnel across the board. I feel really, really confident that they will again be one of the best defenses in the NFL this year. Yeah, I feel like Robert Sala kind of found the perfect balance between what we were just talking about in the intro, between like the system and being able to have change up and have curveballs that you could throw. My lasting image from him on coaching on the big stage is the Super Bowl against the Chiefs.

where they had a lead in the second half, a double-digit lead, and they kind of blew that lead. A lot of people put it on Shanahan. I kind of put it on Salah, because I thought he just kept throwing the same pitches at Patrick Mahomes. And if you do that against Mahomes and Reid, eventually they're going to take you deep. And they took them deep a couple of times at the end there.

And we haven't seen them back on the big stage since then. So I'm wondering, like, in January, is he beating the allegations? Is he beating the Pete Carroll, like we run this style of defense allegations? That is the tree he comes from. but I do think we've seen him get closer to Domeko Rines where when Damico Rines was in the playoffs as a defensive coordinator, he threw some curve balls.

Like that Packers game in the 49ers, what he did at Devante Adams was not something they did during the regular season. So I do wonder, do you think Sala has that in him? I think that's the question, right? I think that we've seen now over the last few years that just playing their base style of defense will keep them probably in that top three to five conversation

just based on personnel when guys are having. healthy. The question is, right, is can you do what D'Amico did, which is take what, take what already exists and then start applying some different pressure packages, right? That was something that, that D'Amico really developed over, like, those last two years in San Francisco, was walking Fred Warner up to the line of scrimmage and having, you know, these creative kind of stunts and twists to get Nick Bosa one-on-ones when he needed to, or to get Fred Warner as a free runner or get Drake Greenlaw as a free runner. They have linebackers that can be really effective blitzers if they want it to blitz more often on passing downs.

You know, I think that on third and three and plus, which like to me is a clear passing situation, like they're one of like the bottom 10 defenses in terms of blitz rate and converting successfully when they're blitzing defensively, right? So you want to see a little bit more of that because those are the things I think that forces offense is to honor you in a different way, especially if you're going to be a little bit more of like a one pitch or two pitch type of defense. You brought up Sean McDermott. That's another good example.

We'll get to the Browns and Jim Schwartz. That's another example of a guy who really plays a particular style of football. There's a lot of merit to that, and that comes back to the conversation of week by week in terms of just like who's going to rank highly, I think the Jets will be good no matter what. But the question for Sala, for over it for the rest of this defense is when you're playing up against the top AFC offenses, right? When it's time to see Miami, when you have to see Kansas City, when you have to see Buffalo a couple of times, what can you draw up for these very dynamic offenses and most importantly the more dynamic quarterbacks in the league? because if you do keep showing these same soft zone shells over and over, these guys are going to extend plays, they're going to throw over the top of guys, they're going to find the mismatches underneath that really kind of expose you defensively.

And now the guys like Sauce Gardner and Quentin Williams can't make the impact on a game that they really should. Yeah, I had the Jets at 2. And I'm going to be honest with you for about 90% of the process, the planning process, I had them at number one for all the same reasons. And I think it's the combination of being able to play that soft zone and take away explosives, being able to shut down the run with that defensive line without committing too many numbers to the box. And then having Sauce Gardner, who,

and I think we need to have this conversation because it's kind of gone away over the last year might be the best quarterback in the league. It feels like we don't talk about who the best cornerback in the league is anymore. And is it Sauce Gardner, or are there any other candidates that you would throw out there? Like, I'm thinking Patrick Sertan,

who isn't on the best defense right now and might not be getting the shine that he would normal. I think it's a two-man race between those. two, right? Like if you look stylistically in terms of like having a complete skill set, being the kind of corner that we talked about, you know, a decade ago in terms of, hey, we can put this guy on one side of the field and he's going to take this away from an offense, right? And for me, I think if it's not, if it's not Sartan, and Sartan for me is my favorite corner, but I think the debate between those two, it's those two and you can probably

flip a coin. I think that all the ways that Sartan is strong, Gardner can be as well, all the things that make Gardner special. Sartan has. as well in terms of ball skills in terms of being tight to routes down the field being able to play zone and man right like i think think that they're probably the most complete skill set wise and in terms of size they're all they're both prototypical so those are the top two i'd say yeah i feel like that wasn't always a thing i know there were some guys that could play manner zone but like i'm thinking about 10 years ago when the conversation was sherman versus rivas versus you know patrick peterson and it was always like you know sherman only plays zone for the most part. He stays at his side of the field.

Peterson is a freak athlete who can lock down anyone in man. And then like Revis was kind of the perfect middle ground. And I think now we're seeing more of those guys who could do both. And like in CERTAN and in Saus Gardner, you definitely have both of those. And speaking of defenses that could do a lot of things that could do both. They could play zone. They could play man. Your number two team is? The Baltimore Ravens, right? Last year's, I think best

defense or I think the people's favorite defense last year. was Baltimore, right? The most interesting one schematically. And I'm still confident in what they are because the core pieces outside of the defensive coordinator are all there. And for as much as I think Mike McDonald transformed what they did, what they do defensively tracks all the way back to like Marvin Lewis, you know, being there as a defensive coach. You know, so this is, there's an infrastructure there. And that's another piece of it for me that I try to consider is what the defensive infrastructure is. If there's a clearer vision, in terms of how they build. And Baltimore has a clear vision and how they build, right? It's getting strong up the middle. They don't prioritize edge rushers, which is a point that I want to come back to talk to you about in terms of just like roster building.

And then what they do on the back end in terms of changing coverages, right? You think about the 49ers game. The way that they look against them is totally different than the way they looked against the Browns, the two times that they played, which is totally different than the way they looked against Miami, which is totally different. And you can just go down the list of all, exactly.

all these different ways that they played when they need to pressure they can when they need to place off coverage they can they were actually really good in man coverage and they did all this without having a top fly at drusher which to me speaks to what they are schematically and why i feel so good about what they can do you know if there is a concern it's that they don't have that top flight tear off the edge three four outside backer like a calil mac in his prime where you can just lean on him to be you know the game record but they have so many tools schematically and you have rocron smith in the middle who has just been a problem eraser for them from the moment that they traded for them, I have no reason not to believe that they're still going to be a top two degree. Yeah, so obviously they lose the McDonald who takes the Seattle job, the head coaching job. They lose Jadavian Clowney, who had a Renaissance season under McDonald. They lose Patrick Queen, who kind of rebounded after the trade for Roquan in 2022. You can actually see Roquan just like pointing things out to him,

and you can see the lightball flip on for Patrick Quinn. Yeah, it's amazing to watching Queen. To his credit, became a good player. last year. I don't want to take anything away from him. He's going to be a valuable addition to that Pittsburgh Front 7. They also lose Anthony Weaver, an assistant who, I assumed would be the guy that would take over from McDonald, but he goes to Miami and he takes over the same position. And Zach Orr, an under-experienced coach, a guy who has never called plays at this level or any level he's playing linebacker not too long ago in the league. He takes over as DC. So that's my one

concerned. I had the Ravens a little lower on my list because of these losses. But I do have confidence in this infrastructure. As you mentioned, I do think, like, McDonald is leaving. You killed the man, but you didn't kill the spirit. Like, he left behind this system he set up. And it, like you said, it goes back to, like Rex Ryan. It goes back to Wink Martindale, D&Ps, all these guys that came before, Marvin Lewis. But I do think McDonald took the teaching to another level. Like there are some like black market coaching materials floating around the internet. And one of those things that I know you've seen it is the outside linebackers manual from I think the 2022 season, McDonald's first season in Baltimore. And I've read playbooks.

I've seen these similar resources. I've never seen one that good. I've never seen one that detailed that a guy like me, a layman like me, can read and be like, holy shit, man. I feel like I could go out and play outside lineback for the ratings tomorrow. Like I know the calls and everything, baby. Like, I want to, after reading that, I wanted to go on Madden and, like, set up my defense, like, in that vision. So I do think there's going to be some carryover, but I need to see it. I need to see it.

I need to see it. I need to see it without Patrick Queen in that athleticism he brought to the table. Jaday and Clowny, I thought, brought a level of athleticism. They didn't typically see. You talked about them kind of skimping on this position in the past, and it's seen as a premium position. It's the quarterback of the defense, you know, edge rusher. They get paid like quarterbacks. And Baltimore has famously never really invested in that.

I will say this. With Clowny, they did have blue chip talent in terms of physical talent. So I do think that's kind of a loss. So let's talk about the edge rushing thing and how they kind of get by without paying that position where as other teams needed. Like a team like the Browns can't get by without their edge rushers. I think for them or where I think that they, where we can see that they, where we can see that they value building depth and building top in talent is all up the spine of the defense, right?

They will spend if they have a great defensive tackle. We obviously saw that with Just a Matter BKK's contract extension. They will spend resources to bring in linebackers, right? They've drafted Trenton Simpson in the top 100. They drafted Patrick Queen in the first round. They traded away draft capital to bring in Roquan Smith. So clearly they prioritize having guys up the spine of the defense to help them solve their problems, which makes sense, given the fact that they are kind of that three, four style of build.

You do want to have linebackers that are more cerebral, that are great athletes that are comfortable, you know, fitting in the box and getting out in space. Like I said, being a racers, right? You can tell that by the athletic profile that they're after at that position. And then the thing that they have, the thing that they also invest in that I think is underrated is a safety position, right? Obviously, I think they might have the greatest chess piece in the NFL defensively and Kyle Hamilton, right what you think about Can I throw a take out real quick?

Can I throw a take out real quick before you continue? I'm all ears. Top three defender in the league. I don't even know how. I don't know why you would argue against it. I can understand if you want to say positional about you. Micah Miles and then Kyle Hamilton. If I'm drafting defensive players, that's where I'm going with it.

I'm getting those top two edge rushers. And if I can't have them, I'll take Kyle Hamilton, right? And then you think about the way that they're able to weaponize them, specifically in this defense. It's different than everything. else in the league, right? Like, the only other defense that I could say is similar is Kansas City, and that's not about a player. That's about Steve Spagnolo and just how he likes using safeties and corners and dime packages, right? Like Kyle Hamilton is that in one, right? If you put

him at the nickel, he can be the best nickel player in coverage. You can be the best nickel player as a blitzer. He can be the best nickel player as a run defender, right? Like, that's different. And that's not even talking about what he can be deep down the field. And they just value that kind of versatility in a way that I think is lost on a lot of other defenses and franchises in terms of roster building. Even Marlon Humphrey, right? He might be better in the slot than he is outside. And he's one of the better corner and one of the better outside corners in the lead. So that to me is why, again, why I feel just so strong about what they can do to be a top five, top three units still, is all of those pieces in terms of personnel are still there. They have so much depth that corner.

We saw that as guys got hurt last year. I love what they have in the middle in terms of lineback and talent. like Trenton Simpson when he was drafted a couple of years ago. They still have Kyle Hamilton. They still have Marcus Williams. It was almost become like this forgotten commodity now. Yeah. You know, he was an all pro in New Orleans and everybody knew who he was. And now he's here.

And it's almost like he's also ran because they have so much other defensive talent there. So there's just so much already there. Like I said, the schematic infrastructure has been in place for two decades now. I will always feel confident in what they can do defensively. Okay. So I want to talk about your third place team, but I also want to bring in your fourth place. place team because your fourth place team was my top team. And that's the Cleveland Browns. And I want to

talk about Steve Spagnolo. And I want to talk about him in conjunction with Jim Schwartz, two of like the more veteran defensive coordinators. Last year, there were a lot of young guys getting a lot of love, including Mike McDonald. But two of the best defenses, including the one that won the Super Bowl were led by old timers. Guys that if they got a head coaching job like two years ago, the fan base would revolt and be like, oh, no, this guy. But in 2024, it's the year of Jim Schwartz. It's a Last year was definitely the year of Steve Spagnolo. I don't think I've ever seen an assistant get so much love at a Super Bowl as I did with Spags. And he earned it, obviously, with that performance.

So let's talk about those two. First of all, let's talk about Spagnolo and why he has endured. I mean, this guy was one of the best defensive coordinators in 2007. I mean, that's almost 20 years ago now. He took down maybe the best offensive of all time, the most intimidating offensive all time, in those 2007 Patriots, Tom Brady, West Welk, Randy Moss, he shut them down in the Super Bowl with that four-man rush. And then fast forward nearly two decades later,

and the most versatile offense I've ever seen in terms of personnel, he took them to the shed too in the Super Bowl and beating the 49ers. How has he been doing this? And where does he fit in like the philosophical landscape of the NFL right now? If he does fit him? I don't know if he fit. I think that he's a unique commodity. in the NFL is what I would say.

And to the point that you just made of us to Spagnolo, you can argue that last year's playoff run in Kansas City might be more impressive than beating what would have been an 18 and O Patriots team. Right. Like that says a lot about what this guy can do defensively in terms of beating Josh Allen, you beat Lamar Jackson,

and you beat Kyle Shanahan in that 49ers offense that looked unstoppable throughout the year. Right. And I think a lot of that is, I think a lot of that kind of boils down to the fact that he can be specific in game plans in ways that you just don't see other defenses across the league, right? Like one of the things I wanted to look at is just how many defenses play in dime on like clear third down passing situation. So again, third and four or more, he's number one in the league and the only defense in a league that plays dime 80% of the time in those scenarios, right?

And then you look at the blitz rates and they're near, they're like middle of the pack there. I think they're like 12th on blitzes on clear passing downs on third down. their top 10 in split safety zone shells. They played like in the top 10 in man coverage without blitzing last year. What I'm describing to what I'm describing to you guys for a lot of teams is their entire identity. Wing-Martindale's entire identity is we're going to blitz you on third and clear passing downs. You know, I think about Dean Peas, like a lot of his identity is we're going to play a lot of

dbs on third. You know, we're going to play a lot of dime on third and passing downs, right? You think about Dan Coyne, who I mentioned, on passing downs, we're playing man coverage with the four-man rush. Or we might send a five-man rush, but we're playing man coverage. He has a bunch of snaps at all these things. And they perform like top half, top 10, top five in all these different ways. And I think that he just has a unique knack for understanding how to develop talent and how to maximize it. When it was Tyron Matthew and Daniel Sorensen playing safety, it was a bunch of just cover two shells.

and we're just mixing up all these different cover two rotations. And a lot of Matthew in the hole. Right, exactly. And they're able to protect these guys mismatches that way. These past couple of years, you draft Trent McDuffie. He shows that he can play outside and play tough physical coverage outside and in the slot. And now you can play a little bit more man coverage when you need to. And I think that that really helped them, obviously, in the Super Bowl this past year,

is that they were one of the few teams that could actually play physical man coverage down the field against Devo Samuel, against Christian McCaffrey, you know, against what, against George Kittle, and against Kyle Shanahan, who knows maybe better than anybody else in the league, save for like, Shaw McVeigh, how to make victims out of teams that play a bunch of man coverage, right? So there's just an understanding of how to deploy packages, how to use guys like Leo Chanel, who might not play for a lot of defenses and can be like, even if it's only for eight to ten snaps a game, one of the most impactful defenders on the field. You get Drew Tranquil, who didn't look like much.

in Los Angeles. And now all of a sudden he's a really strong backer, you know, Nick Bolton, Willie Gay, all these guys who have played that position throughout the years for Steve Spagnola have all had their best and most productive years for that guy. I think it just speaks to how, knowing how to deploy guys. It almost transcends the stats. He just knows defense is better than almost everybody else in the league. And I guess it makes sense when you think about how old and crusty of a defense

coordinator is. He's carrying the torch for Belichick in that regard. The guy that has seen it all. I didn't want to invoke Belichick, but that's the name I think about. I mean, I think it's fair at this point. He's earned his flowers. He's won on the big stage with good. He's beating Kyle Shanahan twice.

He's beaten Belichick himself and Josh McDaniels and Tom Brady on the biggest stage there is. Like, I think he deserves the credit he's finally getting. I think one thing he does, we talk so much about his disguise in terms of past defense. I think one interesting thing he does. Something that a lot of the best defensive coordinators I've noticed are doing more often. It's always been a thing teams have done it. And that's disguising run fits is how I would put it. Disguising fronts, like lining up in one front,

and I don't want to get too bogged down in terminology, but maybe you're playing like an odd front and you're trying to, you know, cram up interior gaps. And there are certain runs that work against that. And then there's the even front, the four down front. There are certain runs that work against that. And a lot of the time, these quarterbacks are going to the line. They have two runs called maybe depending on the front

and they can get to a different run call, depending on what the defense is presenting before the snap. And one thing Spagnola does really well is change that look. So maybe you're running a counterplay because you've got an odd front. And after the snap, they switch it to an over front or whatever, a four down front and just eats up whatever you're trying to do. It ruins your double teams. It ruins your angles. And that's something he does so well.

And I think that's one of the keys to modern defense, not only like stopping the pass, obviously, but also just having answers, multiple answers that aren't just like we're better and bigger. and stronger than you to stop the run. And that's something that he's done really well. And let's talk about Jim Schwartz now because he, he's done it in a different way. He's still accomplishing a lot of the same things, but he's done it in a different way. And he's leaned more a little more on his personnel, I would say. He has more traditional personnel for a top defense. I would, with Miles Garrett, obviously Denzel Ward, one of the better cover corners in the

league. And they played the most man coverage across the board in the league. They played the most single high across the board. this was a defense that took it to offenses where the last couple of years, I feel like the most popular defense have been ones that are more passive. They're trying to put a ceiling over the offense, trying to limit explosives. This defense took the game to opponents. How did Jim Schwartz do that?

I mean, you kind of laid it out, right? Like, I think that a lot of conversations about modern defense has been like, can defense coordinators play a whack-a-mole game with coordinators and quarterbacks and just try to hide and tension? that is not the case of Jim Schwartz. You know where the guys are, you know what they're running, and they're playing whack-a-mole with you. It's, can you get the ball?

Can you hide before Miles Garrett comes and takes your quarterback's head off? Right. So, and I think that there's a lot of merits of that. Miles Garrett literally has played whack-a-wack-a-ball field before, by the way. Very true. Yeah, I don't know, Mason Rudolph would appreciate the reference as much as I appreciate it. Moly is honestly the nicest thing I've ever said about, and Rudolph. But yeah, I think that, you know, you kind of laid it out. It's man coverage.

It's single high coverage. They're allowing guys to tear off up the field. You know where the vulnerabilities are, but they've done such a good job at just overwhelming you with their strengths, which is the fact that they do have a top-in cover corner, right, in Denzel Ward. Even Greg Newsom, when he's healthy and playing at his best is about as good an option you can have as a number two corner in the lead, right? You have Miles Garrett. They've been able to, to get, I think, just enough pass rush at other spots, and I think that you're starting to see them invest now, which is why I think you can make an argument for them being a top defense, because they're starting to invest a little bit more in the supporting pieces on the

defensive line or along the defensive front around Miles. So there's just not so much pressure on him to be a transformative edge rushing talent. So there's that piece of it as well. Schematically, they take away explosive play so well by being able to just get a pass rush and force ball out of quarterback's hands. And the thing about shorts that I really appreciate is where I think we're seeing more defense to say, and we're so concerned about what quarterbacks are going to do that we'll play a more soft zone coverage, he leans in the entire opposite direction. It's, oh, if I can't solve this problem with cover three and cover one, I'm just going to blitz you. That's going to be our answer. You're like, we're not stepping

backwards, right? Like, if there's a college football listener out there, I think that can appreciate this, you reminds me a lot of like Don Brown, right? Where it's like, solving problems with aggression, right? Exactly. That was the same. Yeah. If I, yes, exactly. If I can't cover you, I'm not going to try to cover you better. We're just going to try to hit you harder. That's the solution. And I think that that's boring out in what they do. And I think that past teams that are built around having a high-level pass rush

when you have legitimately a guy that can make an argument for being a Hall of Fame talent, maybe our first ballot Hall of Fame talent based on where the numbers are tracking and how productive he's been and all pros and all the accolades, that's always going to work defensively in this league. because there's just nothing that our offense can do about having a pass pressure that they can't block or the amount of resources you have to pour into stopping a Miles Garrett when he's going takes away so much in terms of the passing game how far you can push the ball down the field. You know, he's grown so much as a run defender as well. So you can't just run at the guy when he's healthy and just take him out of the game that way.

That to me is why I think there'll be a top five defense again this year. Yeah, I had him at number one. think they're due for some better injury luck and i think some of the the down moments during the second half of the year especially like in the playoffs they got torn apart by houston i think had to do with injuries like ward went out some secondary injuries where they weren't able to play man over the second half as often as they had that turnover luck like they were probably always going to lose that game based off injuries it just got away from them so quickly because of the flacko turnovers so but yeah my my one concern is how good cj stroud looks because this is i i would say

this is a defense that can have trouble against the best quarterbacks. I don't think the best offense is necessarily giving it problems. Like, you look at, you look at Schwartz's history against top level, like, play callers, like Shanahan, like McVe. And he's done really well, actually. Right. Which is kind of counterintuitive because you expect the Shanahan's to be able to tear up cover one and cover three.

And you expect Sean McVeigh to be able to do that too. But they really haven't had success. I think the big reason why, especially in Cleveland, is because he just has to do it. So I think this is like the perfect marriage. of one, they're due for some positive regression. Two, personnel-wise, they have some of the best dudes on the planet, which makes things easier. And then three, they could play man coverage. And, like, that's a big deal for me.

I think it's a big deal for you. Speaking of a team that I think deals with similar problems, your number five team is the 49ers. And I had the 49ers at number nine. This was the biggest discrepancy between our two rankings. I am curious to hear why you think they're due for a bounce. back after the down year under Steve Wilkes. And do you think it's because of the coordinator change? Obviously, Staley has been brought in as a pseudo-advisor.

It's almost like the Vic Fangio role in Philadelphia a couple years ago. But Nick Sorensen, who Jaguars fans will remember as a white safety with long hair. Yeah, yeah. I feel like back in the day, like when he played every NFL team was required to have a long-haired white safety, who was only good for helmet-to-helmet contact. Everybody was chasing their John Lynch, man. everybody was chasing their John Lynch. And he was that for the Jaguars Nick Swarston.

Like he's a Jaguars fan favorite. My brother was a Jaguars fan. I heard a lot about him. But he's going to be the DC, but he does have Brandon Staley kind of lording over him. So I wonder how much do you think that schematic change or that change at coordinator is going to, is going to change things for San Francisco? Because Sorenson is a holdover from the previous staff. Well, and I was listening to a press conference to his during their mini camp practices.

I think it was like the phase two stuff when they first started getting out on the field and kind of installing stuff and doing some, you know, some defensive work, Indies and team periods and all that type of deal. Right. And one of the things I took away from that is that he was very steadfast in the idea that we are getting back to exactly what worked. Kyle was very clear that he wants to go back to the kind of defense that we, that they had been running with Sala, with Ryan's, you know, for that half decade prior to making the seat walks higher. and Sorensen has obviously been in the building and been with Kyle for this amount of time. So he understands exactly what it is that they want to get back to, which makes the addition to Brandon Staley really fascinating to me. He was asked about it in the press conference, and I think he just kind of gave a little ho-hum answers as to,

well, he thinks a lot about the coverage side of things. So it's interesting just to get a different perspective on coverage. I don't know if I really believe that Staley is there to influence Sorensen as much as Staley is in the building. to absorb some of the influence of that defensive tree and see how he can apply it. At least that's kind of what I take away from that. Otherwise, I don't think you hire Sorensen in the first place. So you think this is more for Staley's benefit and personal growth as a coach.

I think that there's, I think he might be there more to kind of throw ideas about in terms of like, hey, in the Fangio tree, this is how we handle certain things. In the Fangio tree, this is what we call it here. Here's how we build, you know, maybe more specific designer game plan stuff. from a coverage perspective, right? Like, I know that that's a big fan jail specialty, right, is understanding how to develop a game plan for star wide receivers, you know, more than anything,

or quarterbacks or offenses that want to attack certain areas of the field. I can see that. But in terms of just like defensive infrastructure, they're going to be getting back to some of the things that have worked for them really well. So to me, I think it's less about, do you trust the scheme and more about do you trust the roster attrition, not catching up to them again, the way that it looked like.

like it did down the stretch last year, right? Like, Hufunga is young. I think that he'll bounce back from his injury and be fine. And when he's there, it does change their defensive backfield is having a guy that can play from depth, do some different things in terms of playing like in the scene, playing a deep path, still showing up and run support, right? Like, that's what makes Hufunga a special player. If Charveraer's Ward is healthy again, I would like to trust that he could still be the

player that they signed. You know, he's obviously been even better there than he was in Kansas City. So I think that there's reason to have some trust in that. My big question is, is Devondre Campbell going to be an adequate Drake Greenlaw replacement for as long as Greg Green Law is out? I don't know what the timeline is on the recovery from his Achilles injury for a green law. And he's a big piece of that defense. What he is as a thumper, not only is it uniquely special in that defense,

it allows Fred Warner to be the Fred Warner that we see, right, in terms of playing more coverage deep down the middle of the field. deal, right? So that's a big question for me. And it's, they've lost DeForest Buckner and it didn't hurt them this much. Now there's no DeForest Buckner. There's no Eric Armstead anymore. Right, yeah. You know, Javan Hargrave is much more of a pass rush specialist than he is a guy that's taken on blocks away that Eric Armstead and take on double teams as like some six eight, 300 pound guy, right? Like that's not what you're going to get out of Hargrave. We haven't seen very much from like, you know, Jordan Elliott, Kevin is the guys that are behind him. Malik Collins is

more of a pass rusher type or gap shooter than he is a guy that's going to play double teams. And to me, the defensive interior is what I think they need to make sure that Nick Bosa stays as productive as he's been to make sure that, you know, Fred Warner doesn't have to play as downhill all the time, even though he's grown so much as a run defender. That's not a guy that's coming and thumping in the A and B gap, right? Like he's not taking on pullers the way that you would expect, you know, Juan Bentley to take on pullers. And it's not a knock, right?

That's just not the strength of his game. What makes him unique in the best linebacker of football is what he can do to tight ends, right? What he can do as a deep zone defender and intermediate zone defender. So to me, that's the real question is can they get healthy? And then when they are healthy, is there enough still up the spine of this defense that separates them from a lot of the other four down defenses that we see in the league? Yeah, that's kind of the worry with them. And it's always the worry with San Francisco. If you think about it, like over the past couple years, when they've had down years, it's been the result of injuries.

And like this defense has quietly gotten old. Like in 2019, when they were in the Super Bowl, it was similar players. Everybody's on their first contract. You know, we're just starting their second contract. It's different now. Right. That's the best way to put it. It's different now.

Yeah, it's just everybody's on their second or third deals. They've played. They've been hurt. There's a lot of deep playoff runs, man. Like, I think that fans, I think it's easy to overstate it, you know, in the media. And then it's easy for fans to maybe underrate the effect, right? It's kind of one of those weird things where we spend too much time talking about Super Bowl hangovers or deep playoff runs affecting teams. But we also don't pay enough respect to the fact that there is a real wear and tear factor that comes from this.

And then you've got to deal with the fact that these are two heartbreaking Super Bowl efforts in a row, or not in a row, but in the same tenure. And I just don't know how much gas you still have in the tank emotionally to continue doing this. And this team has played a very specific style. And the time that they tried to break last year, you think about all of just the acrimon. that we heard down the stretch of, oh, we can't stop the run, how we used to stop the run. This team, you know,

guys are kind of mentioning behind the scenes how Kyle is uncomfortable with the amount of blitzing that they do or with how much man coverage they play and when it's not working. And then you get to see the fallout and Kyle calling timeout before, you know, that pivotal conversion down in overtime

because he doesn't want the blitz. And then they run the blitz anyways and it still doesn't work. So it's like all these different things that I think, you know, kind of blew up in their face last year. I want to trust. that there's enough already there institutionally to kind of paper over some of the things that

I'm not feeling confident in right now, but I do want to acknowledge it as a real thing that might knock them out of being the top 10 defense, even though I think that a lot of their top-end personnel fits the mold of what you want in the top 10, top five type of people. Yeah, that's why I had them at nine is these question marks. And I think like it's a real delicate build for them. Like if Fred Warner goes down, which we haven't really seen, like I could see that thing just collapsing. Same with Nick Bosa.

I don't think they can afford to lose him. So that's my one concern with them. Just to recap our list so far, your list goes Jets, Ravens, Chiefs, Browns, and 49ers. That's the top five. My list is Browns, Jets. I'm going to keep my third team of mystery for now because we haven't gotten to them on your list.

And then the Ravens. And then my next team is the Cowboys, who you have at number six. Speaking of a team that loves to play cover one, well, at least they did under Dan Quinn. They have a new defensive coordinator after finishing as a top five defense, I believe the last two years by EPA, that is. They're replacing Dan Quinn, who takes the job in Washington with an old friend of ours.

Everybody loves him. Mike Zimmer is back in the NFL after, was it, a two, three-year hiatus? He went to Colorado and coach under Dionne Sanders. I don't know what went on there, but he is back in the NFL. And this is a man who once famously said, you can go down to 7-11 and find yourself a cover two cornerback. That's one of his famous sayings. I think he said that and he has been cursed by the cornerback gods ever since.

Because when you think about the efforts, the lengths Minnesota went to find a cornerback in the first round, Mike Hughes, Trey Waynes, Jeff Gladney. Have you heard that name in a while? Like they drafted three guys who, like, Trey Wains was fine. He was a decent player, but he wasn't the guy they were expected when they drafted him in the top 10. But now that isn't a problem. Maybe he's made amends during his time away. He got the coach Travis Hunter last year for a little bit. Now he gets Trayvon Diggs, your old friend, Trayvon Diggs, and Dron Bland, who has to beat the Trayvon Diggs allegations.

Trayvon Diggs was able to beat those allegations last year. I have a lot of interceptions, but I also get burnt a lot thing going on. It's definitely around. Yeah, that's definitely that. That's Seattle game. That one's burned into my memory with D.K. Medcaf due to that man. It overshadowed all those touchdowns he had. But Mike Zimmer does have cornerbacks now.

So he can play some man coverage. And from what I remember of him in Minnesota, it was a lot of cover one, cover three, which is similar to what we saw out of Dan Quinn, obviously. But it is different. It is different. You're going to have a little more seasoning on this defense. There's going to be some more change up.

You're going to see a lot of double A gap blitzes. That was his big thing in Minnesota. So how much do we trust Mike Zimmer at this point in his career? And can we expect the Cowboys defense to get better? And how will it get better if so? So I will say, I'll start with this. If I'm Michael Parsons, I'm as happy as I've ever been. Because one of the things that, one of the things that Mike Zimmer does better than almost anybody else in the league.

And this is basically been for as long as he's been a defensive play caller, is scheming up ways to get his best edge rusher free. Right? He's looking at like the Zedarius Smith years, like the 2019 through 2021, double digit sack, double digit sack, double digit sack. Like that's really where he kind of made a name for himself as being a regular high pressure, high sack conversion guy. Right. So if I'm Michael Parsons, I feel really confident. that changing from Dan Quinn to Mike Zimmer is not going to come at the cost of my production,

right? Where I'm really interested in, what I'm really interested in is what he thinks of these corners, right, and how he uses these corners. He was much more of like a zone coverage guy beforehand. He would play probably about league average in terms of man, right? And a lot of man for him came with pressures. So I think that, and I think the Dallas is probably built well to do that, to execute that. Dan Quinn has always done a really good job at finding,

safeties that you can play in the slot, finding a slot corner that you really like. Obviously, you get Trayvon Diggs. He gets much better over the last two years of his career. And had he been healthy, I think that that helps Dallas's defense a bunch. For sure. I mean, and they were really running out of bodies by the time we got to the Green Bay game as well. So there's a lot of that that exists with them similar to what we talked about a second ago with San Francisco.

So I think that they'll just be better on health regression, assuming that guys are going to be available. I think that Mazi Smith should be better because he's probably not going to be asked to be a gap shooter, right? I'll probably get closer to the weight that he should be at based on his play style, right, and play a little bit heavier. But that's really where the question is, right? Like for me, Mike Zimmer, what he was able to do defensively, I think it's a little bit more reminiscent of what we've talked about with like the new era Legion of Boom guys. And by that, I mean Robert Sala, I mean D'Amico Ryan's. I mean Jeff Obrick.

You know, I think about guys that are four down, but they've embraced this era of. of needing to have more weight on the defensive interior and not asking your linebackers to play so downhill. So that way you can take away the play action passing game. You can play a little bit more soft coverage in those intermediate areas. So that way quarterbacks can't work the middle of the field the way that they like to. Eric Kendris's best year, his is all pro year. A lot of that came from playing behind great defensive tackles and being able to play more patient and not have to go fit gaps right now. And taking away those intermediate throwing windows, right?

Zimmer was one of one of the coaches on the forefront of that I have decade ago. So I'm really fascinated to see if they can replicate that up the middle, because if you look at the depth chart, that's not entirely clear right now, right? Odigizua is more interesting as a gap shooter than he is as a guy that takes on double team. Mazie Smith, like I said, was not the player that I think they wanted him to be right out the gate. I do think he'll be better.

Chauncey Goldston, we have to see how that fits in this defense. And then they don't have great linebacker player. around Eric Kendricks who's there, and Eric Kendricks is older, right? Even looking at him in Los Angeles, he didn't move the same in Los Angeles as we had seen him in Minnesota. So there are some questions as to whether or not they can get consistent play out of the spine of this defense. But on the perimeter, I'm really fascinated to see whether or not we see the same amount

of cover two quarter quarter half the way that we did in Minnesota because he does genuinely have some tall, lanky, versatile guys with great speed on the perimeter where you might be able to play a little bit tighter coverage. So we might see a little bit more in terms of blitzis, a little bit more in terms of aggressive man coverage, and maybe, you know, not as much soft zone as we saw in Minnesota because they just had such a dearth of cornerback talent. Yeah, that's why I kind of dropped them from my list, but didn't drop them out of the top 10 because I do, I don't think like over the course of the season, they're going to be as good as they were last year or the last two years, you could say. But I do think in January, having Mike Zimmer, that's where it's going to pay off.

Like having him, having him in those meeting rooms, having him putting together those game plans, I think is really going to help things. Speaking of another defense that I think kind of falls into the same bucket as a lot of the teams we discussed, like the Browns and the Jets, the Chicago Bears, who I was looking around some other rankings for defenses just to get an idea of what other, like, what the landscape is and how teams are thinking. I feel like the bears are one of the most underrated defenses because of their full season stats last year.

If you look at their stats over the course of the season, they were like a mid-defense. They were like around 16th and EP. EPA and all that stuff. But once they got Montes sweat and once they got Kyler Gordon back in the slot, maybe one of the best defenses in the league, statistically, by EPA, they were a top defense in the NFL over the second half of the season. So the question mark, or the question with them is, can they carry that over? And the reason why I have them lower on my list is that I still don't trust Matt Everflus. For all the same reasons why we've kind of questioned the trust we have in all these DCs. Like when push comes to shove, does he have a better answer than just throwing cover

one at his problems? And I think last year, that was an issue even when the defense was going well. And I do want to see what it's going to look like over the course of the season. He's got a full off season to kind of put together this defense now that he knows what his personnel is going to look like. I think it's going to be better. I think the results overall are going to be way better than they were and look more like the second half. But January is where my concern comes. I agree with that. And like the thing with the Bears is I really kind of, I really agonize over whether or not I wanted to put them up at five and bump Dallas and 49ers, Dallas and San Francisco down a peg. But I think ultimately, I don't know if I'm ready to make that leap to say, even though I think a lot of the data like you mentioned forecasts well for them post trade deadline when they were healthy.

A, they were one of the better run defenses in the league, especially after the trade deadline. I think that that's going to maintain. They went and drafted a few defensive tackles a couple years ago. They continued to add. I think that Tremaine Edmins has been better for them that I thought he would be coming in a door. I like the bear's depth chart at linebacker, period. Not just having Edmonds, but having T.J. Edwards, who was great in Philadelphia before he went to Chicago and he's kind of maintained his consistency. I think that they've built themselves in a way that fits the modern paradigm.

of defense, especially if you want to be a soft zone on early downs type of defense and play those split shells. And I think that you need to see a little bit more of that, right? If they're going to be the best version of this defense, they're going to have to get the best coverage year that they can out of Tramade Edmins, out of T.J. Edwards, so they can get back into playing some of their two-deep stuff. They can get back into playing some of that quarter-quarter half stuff. So that way you can take away top receivers, especially in their division. I think that's going to be necessary because they have a lot of the pieces to stop the run in the door already. Right. And that's why they've invested so heavily in the lineback position. You can argue that

they haven't been the best investments, but I do think some of these players have played better than we expected. But it matters in that type of defense. If you want to play that much zone, you have to have playmakers in the middle of the field. You have to have smart players in the middle of the field that can cover grass. We've always seen that with any zone defense. In Seattle, it was KJ. Wright, and it was Bobby Wagner. And Carolina was Luke Keechley and Thomas Davis in San Francisco, Fred Warner is like both of those players and won. So I do think if they're going to be a high-end Super Bowl caliber defense, I think we need elite linebacker play, which I'm not sure they're going to get.

I think you need elite changeups and game plans in the playoffs, which I'm concerned you're not going to get from Everflus. But I will say this. I think Jalen Johnson is one of the most underrated corners in the game. Like every time I watch him, he just looks better. I watched him last year. I always knew he was good, but I watched him last year because he was, one of the trade candidates at the deadline. And I was, I was taking it back. I was kind of shocked at

how good he was. He's a good player. But let's move on to your number 18. This is a team whose coach is in the news today because he signed a three-year extension. Mike Tomlin will be in Pittsburgh for at least another three years. It's your number eight defense. And it makes sense, like, it makes sense to extend Mike Tomlin. I know there's been some question marks about how far you can take that team in this era of the NFL. But, The Steelers, since 2020, which is I think is when Ben Rothesberger lost it and became like, just like a sludge, like a slug on the football field. The way he was playing quarterback was offensive.

We can be honest. It was hard to watch. I was offended as someone who is forced to watch these games on a weekly basis. But since then, since 2020, the Steelers have the six best winning percentage in the NFL with maybe the worst quarterback play outside of the Jets. that's an astonishing step. And maybe the worst offensive coordinator that was in the league prior to bringing in Arthur Smith. Right, right. Matt Canada was not doing any favors for Mike Tomlin in that win column.

But the sixth best in a league where everyone tells us you can't win without a quarterback, the Steelers have won without a quarterback. It's because of their defense. It's because of Mike Tomlin. It's because of Terrell Austin, who I think, I mean, what is this guy going to get another head coaching look? Like in Detroit, he led one of the better defenses in the league. He got a lot of buzz back then. he's leading this the Steelers defense.

He picked up the reins from Keith Butler and they haven't missed a beat. And they are one of the more interesting defenses to watch on film. And one of the better coach defenses with the volume that they do. Like Mike Minko Fitzpatrick is utilized as a weapon and like the coverages they play. They're bracketing a lot of guys. They're passing off routes like we used to see it with Belichick. They're running it at that level. And they never seem to get the credit because I think the quarterback situation over Saturday is that.

So what makes this? the Steelers defense so good and what makes Tomlin such a good coach? I think that you can kind of invoke some of the things we brought up at Baltimore. I think that they build things a little bit differently, especially when you look at the edge rusher position, right? Like, I think it's more of a priority for them than it is in Baltimore. But in terms of, like, a defense that borrows from an infrastructure that's existed in that building for decades, that's really what it is, right?

Like, this goes back to, and they've been able to, I think the reason why they consistently land in the top 10 to top 12 defensively is because they know how to change gears based on the personnel that they've got, right? Like, I remember when I first started at PFF, one of my favorite things to do was to just pull up Steelers film and just count how many Mike Hilton slot blitzes you would get. And it was like every early down, he's going to bring in some kind of slot blitz, playing three deep, three under, right? And that's very, I think that's very typical in what you would expect to see from a Pittsburgh

Steelers defense, right? That's Dick LeBow. That's, I'm missing the last guys. And who was the other old coordinator? I'm not thinking of that that was in Pittsburgh. I feel horrible because I'm like meshing their faces right now. I can name the players. Like I know like Greg Lloyd was out there.

Kevin Green was out there. Levant Kirkland. I can't name the coach. It's slipping my mind. I'll have to look. I'll have to look it up. But yeah, I mean, they've been playing the same style of defense for so long, right?

It's the fire zones. It's aggressive three, four defense. It's setting hard edges. It's playing cover one. It's playing cover three. You know, and I think that. the thing that they've built now on top of that. And this goes to your point about having Mika Fitzbratrick and why he's such a special player within the context of this defense,

is now they do have a way, I think, to better attack offenses on passing downs. If there was something to poke holes in, it was their corners are either good enough to play man or they're just not going to be a good enough past defense. Now I think that they've kind of, I think, conceded a bit. And they've been working on bringing in guys that can add to the, you know, that can add to their defensive backroom. Obviously, Joe Porter, Jr., is showing some flashes. They continue to try to build on the defensive backfield around those two guys being Fitzpatrick and Joey Porter Jr.

But at the end of the day, now they have the option to play cover two, to play more dime if they need to play dime, to bring different types of pressure packages. I think that when T.J. Watt and Alex, my high Smith are healthy, while they're not, while they're not always, I think, the flashiest pass rushers, they're so consistent in the data bears it out year over year that if those two guys are on the field, they're going to have a good past rushing unit. And then with Tavon Larry Ogenjobi, Keanu Vinton, some of the guys that they brought in at defensive tackle, you can see the thought process is to just pass rushing waves.

And that's why I think that they consistently perform, at least by the data amongst the top in the league. And I'm really interested to see a guy that we mentioned before in Patrick Queen to see if they can finally bring in a lineback that helps them solve problems because they have been desperately looking for that every year. I'm really optimistic about the Queen acquisition. I think they overpaid a little bit. do think Queen's production was a little inflated in that defense, but he's going to a good

coaching staff. He really did develop into a good player. I think that's going to be a sign that we kind of have to revise our takes from the offseason on. And like, that was the name I was thinking of. It was dumb capers. All that ass dom capers. Damn, I should have known that. He was the, he was the Panthers first coach. That was the best hair in football for a while, man. It was a little artificial at the end there. It was unnaturally dark. He went to the coach K's school of, hair design. But yeah,

and we talk about the Steelers drafting wide receivers. When are we going to talk about them drafting just beefy dominant defensive linemen? Like I feel like it's been a decade. They just keep bringing them. Cameron Hayward comes out. Keanu Benton comes in. And you talked about Highsmith.

Like you stack, I know T.J. Watt brings more to the table than pass rushing. Obviously, he's a defensive playmaker. But when you stack like their pure pass rushing stats together, High Smith is better. Like in pure pass rush situations

on third down, and there's no blitz. Yeah, he's more consistent. So, like, those, that's quite the pairing those two have. And they have Nick Herbig who looked great, you know, when he was on the field at times as a pure pass rusher. So clearly like, like you said, man, I mean, they've just had this mill running of being able to draft guys, basically anywhere in the draft and turn them into good edge rushing talent, even if they're just part of the rotation and not a top top in guy. So I'm really interested to see what they look like. You have Peyton Wilson.

I'm interested to see what that looks like. Patrick Queen, we mentioned. Cole Holcomb, I think, can be a good number two linebacker of Patrick Queen as a kind of player in Pittsburgh that he was in Baltimore. There's a lot there. And Dante Jackson, you know, they have all the names across the dev chart, I think,

makes sense as to why they are consistently in the top 10 because you don't find many weaknesses across the depth chart. Dante Jackson is very fast. That's the nicest thing I'll say about him as a disgruntled Panthers fan. He's very fast. I don't know about his covered skills, but we finally get to my number three team, who is the number nine team on your list. And I told you before when we were playing in this spot, I'm going to say some your responsible thing about the Patriots. Just because I love the players on this team.

I love Christian Gonzalez. I love Kyle Dugger. I love their front and the way they play. The Patriots are the number nine team on your team. I want to throw a stat at you because I think we talk so much about how the game passed Belichick by. And usually we hold up the offense as the proof that he is behind the top. times when it comes to scheme. And maybe he's not the best coach in the NFL anymore. He obviously doesn't have a job right now. But he was not, the game had not passed him by on the other side of

the ball. He was still one of the very best defensive minds in the league. And the numbers bear that out. We talked about at the top of the show, the name of the game is stopping explosives in the NFL today. And no defense was better at that than Bill Belichick. It's Patriots. And if you look across the league at the other teams that are very good at doing that, you have Brian Flores and the Vikings who coached under Belichick. And then Patrick Graham of the Raiders, who quietly turned that defense around in the second half after Antonio Pierce took over,

another Belichick acolyte. We always talk about Belichick's coaching tree and how disappointing it is, but he's got a bit of a defensive tree brewing here, and they have a distinct style of play. What makes the Patriots so good and what makes their style of play conducive to hanging around with the big guns in the NFL today,

the big offenses, I mean. I would say, again, we're going to bring back a basketball analogy. I would say they built their defense. like how Pat Riley used to talk 20 years ago before it actually became the meta, or it's like, oh, the ideal is to have five, six, nine guys with seven foot wingspans who can switch everything. When you look at that defense, that's basically how it's built, you know, at all three levels. You think about what they are up front with Christian Barmore, Devon Gachow, you know,

having Keon White on the field, Dietrich Wise. These are names that would be, that will probably be key starters everywhere in the league and can do so much. And that's why you see them, I think, be a top run defense year over year, is if they need to get into the old odd front and play like 1980s ball because Detroit wants to run power and gap schemes out of 12 personnel, they can do that. If you see Miami and they want to play more perimeter run game,

they have the facilities to just get in a four down and play with more speed on the field. And they can do that better than anybody else in the league when they're clicking and at their best. That to me is, and that's just the front. four guys, right? That's not even talking about Kyle Dugger being maybe the second best eraser behind Kyle Hamilton when you just talk about playing them in different roles and being able to do different things. Don't run bubble screens around Kyle Dugger. He takes personal offense

to both screens. He's blowing them up. And that's, and to me, I think, again, this comes back to development. And we've talked about, I think, some of the best defensive coaches, what they all have in common is that they're great developers at certain positions. And at defensive back, man, what Bill Belichick has built in terms of developing guys is as good, if not. better than anybody else in the league. Kyle Dugger has always been fast, but now he's a thumper, right? You mentioned the bubble screens. You mentioned, you know, you can think about him as a dying backer and being able to step

into the box and fit the run, playing in big nickel and he can be lined up outside of a tight end and help set an edge, right? Like, Jabil Preppers, I would say that this has probably been the most consistent play he's gotten as being in New England and playing in this defensive infrastructure. And even though Bill's not there anymore, to me, these players, and the style of defense, all this stuff, I would have to assume is going to stay under Dharab Mayo. And this is a guy who obviously played there. We talked about Zach Moore in Baltimore and why we feel confident that him being a guy that's been there,

played in the system, has developed as a coach within the system, will understand all the levers to pull. I would have to think that D'Rod Mio, who played linebacker for the guy who maybe asked more out of their linebackers than anybody else in the league is going to understand how to run this defensive scheme. I feel really, really confident that when Christian Gonzalez is healthy, Jonathan Jones stays healthy, having Kyle Dugger on the field all year if he's able to stay healthy as well. Like, I know we're playing the contingency game in terms of health, but I'm going to assume that if these guys are on the football field, I expect them to play at a top 10 level. And the only reason why I don't have them high is because they don't have like all pro edge rush talent or like all pro corner talent yet, even though I think that Christian Gonzalez has a high ceiling. Yeah, they got a lot riding on Matthew Judon coming back from a major injury at his age, which like it's not a bet you want to be taking.

this year. But it does seem like this franchise, like, you know, obviously they closed the door in the Belichick era, but they did re-sign a lot of the players that we talked about, a lot of the players that he has developed. And it's been a while since the Patriots have been able to re-sign a guy and invest in a guy that they developed themselves. Like, Kyle Dugger got a new deal. Christian Barmore got a new deal. I think Anthony Jennings got a new deal. And I cannot wait to see Christian Gonzalez healthy, man. I feel like everyone forgot about him. That first month of tape was fun to watch. The biggest bummer is that Belichick,

one of the best secondary coaches in the history of football doesn't get to coach him. I am a little bummed out about that. But we were talking about Kyle Dugger and his ability to just blow plays up. I want to start our next discussion, which is the Texans,

your number nine team, with Jalen Petrie. One of my favorite players, man. I've been watching the Texans on tape recently, just watching their defense for the most part. And that man is a, is a maniac. And I say that in the most, like, the most positive way possible. You need, you need a defensive back that isn't wired right, you know, in today's NFL. You need a nickel

who isn't afraid to just run in there head first. And he does that for them. But I think his style of play kind of speaks to the style of play for the whole defense and how that front seven in particular gets after it under Damika Ryans. And it carries over from what we saw in San Francisco, just so active, just, you know, firing off the ball. And he's just, you know, firing off the ball. And like one thing I have to say is Will Anderson Jr. man, I knew he was good and I enjoyed watching him throughout the season, but being able to watch them like down to down. Yeah. That was a smart pick, man. I'm saying to right now, the nerds were wrong about the trade and the trade up and everything they did in the draft. Like that was a wise investment. And he is a player worth building

your defense around. I feel confident saying that that dude's a special, special player. Honestly, my favorite thing, one, maybe my favorite thing to watch last year defensively was how Houston played the run. It was, it is an insane level of energy. You kind of mentioned like every good defense needs a maniac. Like I think a lot of the teams on this list has at least one guy who's just not wired right to set the tone, especially if he plays linebacker or defensive back, right? I think it's a little bit different when that guy plays off the ball than when it's like a defensive tackle. You kind of expect those guys to eat with their hands, right? But to me in terms of like setting edges and getting, you know, beating guys to.

blocks, getting in gaps, gang tackling. And this dates back to his time in San Francisco, right? Like, I know that we've talked off air, even when I was working at the athletic, you know, in text messages and group chats and things of that nature, where the thing I will be remarking about while everybody is talking about playing quarters and quarter quarter halves and all the creative stuff, you know, on the back end, it's like, dude, are you guys watching Dre Greenlaw and Fred Warner and how downhill they play? And he's able to take that and transfer that over to two much less talented linebackers immediately last year. You know, and they were all bought in. And that to me, I think

that speaks not only to what D'Amico can do schematically, but how easily he's able to get buy-in across the board, right? That all these guys step in the door and they all know what time it is and it's 100% effort getting to the football, setting the edge, stopping the run. I mean, I think that that's carried them. And now I think that because you've established that C.J. Stroud is who he is, and they have some cap space. I think you're starting to see them spend a little bit more. So you go bring in a Danil Hunter just to have a guy that can convert pressure into contact from the quarterback, right? So there's not as much stress on Will Anderson. And Jonathan Garnard, for as good as he's been,

and his pressure rate is consistent. You haven't had that kind of pressure conversion turning into quarterback hits, turning into sack. So I understand making moves like that. You bring in Fadu Kasi, you know, you have Danica Autry. So guys around Will where now you can kind of use him to be that high energy, you know, kind of set the tempo as just like a consistent pressure guy and not have to ask him to get 12 to 15 sacks a year. And then you start thinking about what it can look like if Derek Stingley is healthy. Because when he was on the field, it started to look like the way that I thought it might look when he was drafted a couple of years ago, right? You see the ball skills. You see the versatility and coverage. I think that there's a lot to like there. And, you know,

I think of Kamari Lasseter can be the kind of slot corner that I think he can be. Now you're talking about building out that defense that fits the mold. of what we saw when D'Amico was in San Francisco. And I've got every reason to believe that if these guys all click and you can maybe find one linebacker to play, you know, a side of Z's that can give them something in terms of playing in coverage and maybe that's Christian Harris, you might be cooking with gas. Yeah, and I think that's why it was so important for them.

Like, they didn't have great results last year on defense. Right. They were outside the top 10 EPA. They were fine. But that foundation was set. It was laid. and now it's all about talent acquisition and building upon that

and getting guys in there. The DeNeil Hunter acquisition is a perfect example of that. A move I don't think they would have made if Damiko didn't have this thing up and running like he did by the end of the season. And you can use numbers to kind of question how much of an upgrade they're getting over Gernard with DeNehle Hunter.

But I do think there's something that's not going to be captured in the numbers and it's just having another disruptive force. And I do, I mean with a capital F. Because the Neil Hunter is like a weird pass rusher and it's just a weird guy. Like the way he approaches is not an orthodox edge defender. And I think having him and Will Anderson on the edges of the defense,

like that just makes it easier to play that style of defense that we mentioned where the linebackers are running with their hair on fire. They solve a lot of issues by just being so dominant on the edges. So I'm really looking forward to seeing how that kind of progresses in the next year. they do get they get trapped to hell i would say this i would say about their defense in the run game like a lot of traps a lot of way and plays and it's because of how they fly downhill i actually think it's a compliment how often they get trapped by i agree i agree i mean it and that's one of the things i think that kind of marks what they are defensively is they're going to take away whatever it is that you do

best you can beat this defense don't get me wrong for as much as i love them you can't beat this defense because they aren't overwhelming in terms of personnel quite yet but they're going to force you to beat them doing something that is going to be unconventional to whatever your offensive identity is. Right? Like you think about that Baltimore game in the playoffs and just how quickly D'Amico had an understanding of if we're going to beat them, we're going to have to pressure the hell out of them and they got to beat us a different way. They're going to have to, you know, just sit on the ball, run the ball, you know, take little chunks here and there and it took Baltimore until basically the second half or late in the third quarter to really just kind of

wrap their arms around the fact that they weren't going to beat them with downfield passes or getting yards after the catch. Right. And I think that that speaks to just what they are defensively. The Browns game, doing a great job of just playing soft zone coverage and understanding the fact that, hey, we don't have to heat Joe Flacko up. We're going to get opportunities at the ball if we're just in the right windows. Right.

And I think that that really just speaks to their ability, as I said, to change gears. Some defenses that we've mentioned, you know what it is that they play. They're going to try to overwhelm you with force, whether it's with personnel or just a certain type of play style. And then there are defensive coordinators like this who are a little bit more cerebral in their approach. They're going to just try to beat you with energy and mixing up looks and causing you to hesitate as a quarterback or causing you to hesitate as a play caller because you're

not exactly sure if what you prepare for or what has worked for you for five, six weeks going into that game is going to be adequate to beat that defense in that matchup. Yeah, if you go back and watch the early part of that Browns game, the Browns had some success on offense. And they were running like the same base. basic pattern. They'd have like a guy run a little like sit route, a little hitch route, and then have like an inbreaker behind that. And it was messing with the second level of their defense. But like you said, like D'Amico found the answers. And that's not something we see

out of this style of defense very often. I think that's what makes them so special as a player. The reason why they're not higher on the list, on my list, their number 10 on your list, they're number 10, is because I still think there's some talent acquisition that I need to see before I'm willing to elevate them. But I wouldn't be surprised at their top five by the this year and some of their guys make believe like stingley but uh those are our top 10 we had the same 10 teams we had a slightly different order just to recap you had the jets ravens chiefs browns 49ers cowboys bears steelers patriots than texans i had the browns jets pats ravens cowboys bears bears chiefs steelers 49ers texans my question to you is which fan base is going to be mad most by no

mission for me i'm probably going to hear it most from browns fans for having them forth after the year that they just had last year. I could definitely see them yelling at me for that. How about the Eagles fans? So just to get this clear, Deante is an Eagles fan because we needed more of those on the feed. I was frankly, we didn't have enough. The one thing that the ringers didn't have enough of was Philly fans.

There's more of them. There are more people to yell at me about my Jalen Hertz ranking. But you left Philly off. I left Philly off to get Vic Fangio. That's the one team that I'm worried about kind of popping into those lists. Because even with their problems last year, they were still kind of hovering it around that area when they were going good. So I could see them turning it around.

They do have the pieces on the defensive line. I mean, me being the embarrassing fan that I am, I've been taking in every bit of minicamp intel that I can find. And the one thing that has been encouraging to hear as a fan, and one thing that's been interesting to me as an analyst is the fact that it looks like maybe all the investment they've made at the defensive back position might pay off a little bit sooner than they imagine. You know, I hear that Keely Ringo looks really good.

obviously everybody has high hopes for Quinean Mitchell. You know, the Cooper Jean can be a really good football player. They have Chauncey Gardner Johnson back. So I can see some of the things that dogged them last year in terms of giving up explosive plays in the passing game may be improving. And then you have a defensive coach that I assume is just going to do a better job at understanding how to teach this defense, how to adjust this defense, how to solve its problems.

And just on the base fact that it's not going to be Matt Patricia calling the defense, I should probably feel a little bit better. That's a win. But they're definitely a team that I thought about. I thought about Jacksonville as well. I love Ryan Nilsen. I feel really strongly just as a coordinator change that that might, you know, kind of give them a boost.

And they've got a lot of pieces in place already. It's just a matter, I think, of young guys hitting or starting to take that big leap in terms of Devin Lloyd, Trubon Walker. You know, we'll see if they can get a little bit more out of their young DPs as well. So that does it. Those are probably the two that I have an eye on most. and then like Buffalo and Miami are teams that you can make an argument based on personnel that can be a top 10 defense. I just don't know if I trust the health.

Yeah. Miami lost. Miami lost Christian Wilkins. Yeah, not having a Wilkins hurts. You know, Xavier and Howard wasn't as good as he had been already as it was, but they didn't get a clear replacement that you can feel great about in the defensive backfield yet. Jalen Ramsey is getting older. There's just a lot there that's up in the air for me for Miami. And same with Buffalo.

You know, what they've spent at edge hasn't hit. I know that's a topic that's been beating the death, not just on this, not just in this podcast network, but across the league nationally, everybody knows that those investments haven't hit. And they're aging as well. Notre Dameus White anymore. You know, you lose both safeties. I think that they're kind of full, they're kind of turning a new leaf, you know, just as

Philadelphia is. And it's time to see whether or not those young players are ready to hit and kind of take over for the guys that have parted before them. Yeah. And I'll just throw Seattle out there. I'm not going to count out Mike McDonald's. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets them up and running and close to the top 10 in year one.

And I'm excited to see what Jesse Mentor does in Los Angeles with the Chargers. He's kind of the next Mike McDonald. He came over from Michigan just like McDonald's. So some interesting teams to track outside of the top 10 as well. That's going to do it for us. That's our top 10. We have 85 days till NFL season.

Are you ready, Deontay? Can you feel it? Can't wait. Man, I cannot wait. Can't wait. I should be going to a minicamp to see the Chargers this week. I'm going to try to travel around a little bit when training camp season gets around. And, man, I'm really excited to be here and be talking ball with my guys.

I'm excited for all of us. I'm honored to be potting with you. But that's going to do it for us. Thanks to Isaiah Blakely for producing the show. Thanks to Arjuna, Graham Kapul, and Connor Nevins for additional production supervision. We will see you next week.