The Ringer NFL Show - Predicting the Top Five Defenses for the 2023 NFL Season | Extra Point Taken

Episode Date: August 18, 2023

Sheil and Ben come together to predict whom they think the top five defenses for the 2023 NFL season will be. They give their top-five lists and debate the strengths and weaknesses of each unit (01:41). After, they list the defenses they believe will finish 6-10 (63:36). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Sheil Kapadia and Ben Solak Producer: Eduardo Ocampo Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal and Conor Nevins Musical Elements: Devon Renaldo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, everyone, this is Craig Horlebeck from the Ringer Fantasy Football Show. Join me, Danny Hifetz and Danny Kelly every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to help you win your draft, win your league, and most importantly, avoid that last place punishment. Follow the Ringer Fantasy Football Show on Spotify. Welcome to another extra point-taking Shield to Padilla here, joined by Ben Zolak, back for another episode on the Ringer NFL feed earlier this week. Hopefully you already listen to it. If not, you can go listen to it now. We ran through our top offenses for the 20-23.

season, you know, so like it was a little chalky. It's hard. You know, it's offense. You're looking at quarterbacks. I think we had, what, four duplicates in the top five? I think it's going to get a little bit spicier today with the defenses. So let me ask you this, how I started off last show. How many duplicates do you think we will have in the top five defenses here today? At least two. If we don't, we'll probably have just at least three by by, by, I, I couldn't tell you what the third is. I can tell you what the first two will be. Because those were the easiest ones for me to rank.

And after that, I was figuring it out a little bit. They got tricky. I think we'll have three. Three. Okay. I was going to set the over under at two and a half. So you are taking the over. So we'll do the top five.

And then just like the last show, we'll run through six through six through ten. And say, all right, who are the teams that just missed that we think maybe could crack the top five and go from there. So I'll get us started. We start with number one. I went pretty chalky with number one, and I've got the Dallas Cowboys. Are they your top pick or no? Yep, I have a top.

Okay. They're your top pick. It's, they've been a top three defense each of the last two seasons. They're bringing back pretty much the entire roster, except for corner Anthony Brown and linebacker Anthony Barr, not exactly your two difference makers on defense there. Micah Parsons, we know what we're getting from him, a complete game wrecker who probably is not even in the prime of his career quite yet. We're talking about a guy who had, what, 13 and a half sacks last year.

They add Stefan Gilmore on the back end where usually I would say, you know, so like I think you know me well enough where I'd be the guy saying, you guys are all overrating the Stefan Gilmore edition, you know, he's 32, 33 years old. But with the Cowboys, I like it because they're not putting like all their eggs in the Stefan Gilmore basket. Like they're deep at corner. They have guys who played last year, Duran Bland. They have guys like Jordan Lewis who has played before.

They already have a guy I really like at the other corner spot. and Trayvon Digg. So to me, it's like if Gilmore's healthy, wow, this even hires their ceiling. And if he gets banged up a little bit or shows some decline, to me, it's not the end of the world. So they're good at corner. I like their safeties. They're versatile at safety.

And then Dan Quinn, we probably don't talk enough about how this guy has had a great, like, sort of plan B, you know, has evolved over the course of his career from the guy he was previously in Seattle, in Atlanta. When he was the guy, we were saying, oh, we know what the Falcons are going to run. they're going to do this every year. Let's see if they're good or not. He's really evolved his defenses over the last two years. They don't do the same thing over and over again. He changes it up based on his personnel. Last year's defense was different than their defense the year before. And so I don't know that it's the most complicated defense. You know, just looking up that their coverage

rates, they still play what? Cover three, cover one and cover two account for nearly like 90% of their defensive snaps. But I think sometimes you don't have to overthink it when you have talent. And I think when he needs to evolve, he has evolved. So I just feel really good about this group, talent, coaching, pass rush, coverage. They're a little, you know, nits you can pick if you want to. A linebacko is defensive tackle is good. But like you're going to have those for most defenses. Where it really matters, I think this team is really good. What did I miss in terms of their case for being number one? Yeah. So defensive tackle, I think, has been the big question mark. I've had with them for years. Anytime I bring up my doubts for this Dan Quinn defense coming

coming off of 2021, right? They had such a good performance. And like every, the whole summer, 2021, all I would say is like, defense isn't sticky. Performance isn't stable year over year. Like, they had a ton of Trivon Dex interceptions. They had unbelievable pressure rate. They're not going to be able to do this again. Like, you just don't win in sustained formats.

You don't, this is not a format that sustains, right? It's not something that you can continue to do. Well, they did it again into 2022, right? They replicated all of it. They, for those first two, those two seasons, 21 and 2022, they were really paying, around the defensive tackle position, right? They're saying, all right, trade for Jonathan Hankins. Throw them out there.

You got to get a body. We got to stop the run. Like, they were so light on the interior. They would have days and downs where because of injuries and because of unavailabilities, their heaviest guy out there was Osa Degazua, who's 285, right? And it's like a fun interior pass rusher

and like a Dan Quinn defense, but it's not meant to be your like starting first intent defensive tackle. They still have OSA out there as a starter. They have Jonathan Hankins on the devil. chart, Neville Gallimore, who's been there for a little bit, has had a flashy moments. Critically, the first round draft pick, Mazzie Smith from Grand Rapids, Michigan, Kentwood High School, five minutes down the road for me, K. Sam was wondering, go Falcons.

But, uh, I, I, Mazi, who was a flashy player at Michigan, not necessarily a consistent player, uh, not necessarily like the, uh, a high impact player from the nose, right? Like kind of a, uh, a guy who, if you squint, you can see it all come together, but it isn't there yet. they take him in the first round, and I think so much of that selection is about Dan Quinn, who you bring up and say, we have to highlight this guy. Dan Quinn just gets stuff out of players, man. Like, he just talk about at this point being such a good players coach when he was in Atlanta and, like, they had struggles and, like, there was talking about his job and they don't lose

his job and he stays for another year. And like, so much it was because the players would just go out for him, man. Like, they love DQ. He gets the best out of his guys. So Mazzie Smith is a huge bet on DQ, in my opinion, where you say, like, all right, like, we think Quinn's going to get something out of this player in the interior that we so desperately need that other coaches wouldn't be able to. And so Mazi, a hugely important player to them.

The other player that deserves a huge shout out as to Ron Bland. Oh, baby. You remember? That's a Ben Solac All-Star right there. One of his first games, which he played significant time, was against the Eagles. And I was like, who is this cat? Holy smokes. He's a fifth round rookie out of Sacramento State, go Sac State.

He's a Fresno State transfer. just your prototypical nickel who hates everyone. Just an angry slot corner. Just quick and physical and not big enough to play in the NFL, but he doesn't care. He's pissed off at you right now. Such a fun player to watch. Rounded out that secondary so well.

You brought up the departure of Anthony Brown. Duran Bland is why Anthony Brown is gone. He walked into an opportunity where, you know, some reps were available because of injury, and he just took the job, took it by the rain. Such a fun player to watch. And again, like typifies that defense there, fast, they are physical, they're aggressive, they're so fun to watch. The thing about the Cowboys

that I think really has to be highlighted, they're my number one team as well, is last year the Eagles, as everybody knows, like almost set a sack record, right? But the Eagles did not lead the league and pressure rate. By PFF charting, the team that led the league and pressure rate was the Cowboys. And they didn't just lead the league and pressure rate. They had a pressure on 43% of opposing dropbacks. The Eagles were second at 38%. The difference was the difference between one to two is the same difference as two to 15. And by the way, the team at two almost set a sack record. Then the Cowboys had 5% more pressure than they did.

And so if you get more consistent coverage, forced quarterback to hold onto the ball a little bit more, right? I mean, like this, like, if you're looking to predict who has more sacks that here, the Eagles of the Cowboys, you should absolutely take the Cowboys. Because we know pressure to be more predictive of sacks. Their sack number honestly was low for the amount of pressure that they generated. They're probably going to bring the quarterback down more this year, get more drive ads, get more finishes, and accordingly with more games,

Cowboys should be one with the bullet. We had a nice synergy there, Ben. Like, I think we had the difference between one and two to two to 15 or whatever. Like, I did that with the Chiefs. You're doing that with the Cowboys. You love those. Yeah, that's always fun. Because sometimes you're first and you're barely first and there's six teams divided,

you know, separated by nothing. And other times you're first and there's no one who's even close. So, yes, I like to do it. Like, I didn't know that. Like, you informed me. That's good. and understanding like a difference of 5% is significant, right? If an opposing offense is taking a dropback on what,

like, like 500 dropbacks in an offense. I'm making up a number. I don't know if that's accurate. It's probably high end, whatever. 5% is 25 dropbacks. That is very meaningful. In terms of over the long of the season, if you get on 25 total dropbacks in the season of pressure where nobody else did,

that's game winning stuff. That's record changing stuff in terms of your win loss. And so I can't believe we actually. actually this is insane that we talked around everything. They should be won just because of Micah, right? Like, yeah. I, defensive player of the year comfortably. I would expect him to win it again and every single year until someone takes it out from him.

Like, he's such a unique player to watch, such a cool player to watch. I, like, that and that's, that's the final straw here. I was like, I talk about Dan Quinn, Daron Blaine, like all this cool stuff. They also just have like the guy. Like, right now there's no defensive player up against whom I would not want to go. Like, just not want to. have to deal with game planning more than Michael Parsons. Like Garrett, Derwin, like there's guys, Fred Warner, like these guys cause problems. They're huge talents. They're all pros, whatever.

Mike is the number one headache in the league on the defense side of the ball. No question. Yeah, biggest game wrecker in the front seven and he's what, 24 years old? Like this is not, you know, like again, his best football is probably ahead of him. You have Trayvon Diggs on the back end who, whether you love his game or don't love his game, absolutely a playmaker who's going to create turnovers for you even if he played a little different style last year. And just to your point about the pressure rate, I mean, they didn't, they didn't lose anybody. They still have DeMarcus Lawrence. They still have Doran's Armstrong. You mentioned they add Sam Williams. Yeah, Dante Fowler. They've got the players up there. Like you look at all those sack totals and you're like,

wait, how are they? Oh, okay. Well, it helps to play with Micah Parsons for sure because he's going to take a lot of the attention away. All right. We both have the Cowboys. I feel like we're going to have some, it's gonna get spicy here on the next four. Maybe not write at two. You're making a face. I think you, I'm gonna say, you could. Well, you went more chalk to me. One, two was very easy for me.

So if you have someone different at two, I'm gonna be surprised. I think I might have someone different at two than you. You actually do one of those count to three and say it. All right. Three, two, one, 49ers. Jets. Okay. I have the jets at three.

Go ahead. Give me the Niners. I have the jets at three. I have the Niners four. Okay. I acknowledge and accept that Steve Wilkes represents a change, and that because there's a change, there's a little bit of instability, right?

Like, it's funny. I think that when Robert Sala left and Demico Ryan took over the job, there was this moment of like, okay, like, the Niners DeVans can take a step back. Obviously, like, you know, Demiqo Ryan's, they keep it in the coaching. tree, right? He came up under solid. He's a linebacker's coach here, but he's so young. He's so inexperienced. We don't know anything about him. And then the Niners'

defense was lights out. And then D'Amico leaves and they hire Steve Wilkes. And it's the exact opposite argument. It's like, listen, sure, he's old. He's a veteran. He's coached great defenses over his time in the league. But he's not in the coaching tree. He's not in the system. So we're just like swinging the other direction with like the, hey, new DC. It's going to, it's going to be bad news, right? It's going to make the defense struggle. Listen, I have one question about the San Francisco 49ers defense. Is Chris Colesric still coaching the defense of line? Yep. All right. We're going to be good. We're going to win some ball games.

We're going to sack quarterback a little bit. This is one of the most premier positional coaches in the league. Chris Coasterick's been the defensive line coach there for as long as Shanahan has been there. Obviously, the San Francisco rehabilitation program for underutilized edges is now a well-known thing, right? You get Charles of Menahue in here and out of here. Get D. Ford in here. Get Art and Key in here. We're to cycling through guys. Yeah.

Carrie Hider's been around. Who's the guy this year, Cleland Furtle. Everybody's excited about Cleveland Furl. Yeah, he's the guy. He's definitely like the favorite for that, I think. Yeah, exactly. Drake Jackson, they drafted second round, like never panned out at USC and then had like the six best reps of his entire life last year in rotational play.

Like, it's just the very young player too. Drake Jackson. I mean, he's got, I think he came into the league at what, 21 or some. Yeah, he's got some upside there at the other end spot. And he was an extremely high ranked and high caliber recruit coming out, right? He's got the physical tools. Like, it's like, it's like, again, it's like a classic like five star rehabilitation. thing, right? Where you just say, okay, like, this guy clearly has something. Let's get him in here with our

really good coach. This is going to work. Again, to that point, like, okay, D'emiko is gone. D'emiko was the linebacker's coach and then the defense coordinator. You know who's been there the entire time is Johnny Holland? He was linebacker's coach before Domingo. He stepped down because he had a health thing. And then he stepped back in the linebacker's job once Domeco took the defense coordinator job. He's still there as the linebacker's coach. You still have Fred Warner. You still have Drey Greenlaw. And then you have Oren Berks who the Orenberg's thing last year was infuriating. Warren Berks could not get his head screwed on straight in Green Bay. He spends one year in San Francisco.

He's like making plays behind the line of scrimmage, calling out stuff. Like, how do they do this with these guys? Their ability to get athletes and get them functional is insane. So like Holland is still there, right? The defense's coaching staff is largely still the same. And the tent polls of this team, Nick Bosa contracts assumed and nonwithstanding. Bosa, Armstead, Fred Warner, Tallanoa, Hufanga, Charbarius Ward. All the guys from last year are still here.

I just don't think that Wilkes, who like, Wilkes, obviously, like, he has some defenses that, like, didn't measure out good by DVOA, but you're going to look at the talent on those teams. It's nothing like this. Wilkes is a good defensive coach. He's been a good coach for a long time. And the position coaches that these players know are all still there. Like, this to me is a lot more stable than it looks when you go and you, oh,

they hired a guy outside of the tree. Yeah, I don't, I don't buy that mattering too much. And I look at this talent and I'm not super concerned. If there's any reason for doubt, right? Like, you have them at four and I have them at two. You can argue this secondary overperformed relative to talent. I think that's fair. I also do think that, like, Diomador-Lonor-Lonor is better than folks realized.

I've been a big Lenore fan since he started playing for them. Traverius Ward, I also think it's better than folks realized. Traverius Ward's been one of the best press corners in the league since he came in the league. That's including, like, the Tennessee, Dallas, Kansas City. He was at Dallas and then at San Francisco. Like, this is going back to before Demico Ryan. He's always been good at this. He just hasn't been a newsy name.

I think it is a talented secondary. Again, they probably did punch a little bit over their weight last year, but I don't think like dramatically so. So to me, yeah, get Nick Bose under contracts. This is the second best defense. I feel pretty comfortable with it. Javon Hargrave, dude. John Hargrave.

I was going to say. It's the second best defense. It's the second best defense. You're wrong. I'm right. Jvon, I mean, they were first in DVOA last year. They were 26th in adjusted games loss. So if you don't know what that is,

that measures kind of how much you were hurt by injury. So they were, you know, one of the, eight most, seven or eight most injured defenses in the NFL, still first in DVOA. Oh, and by the way, they added Javon Hargrave, who is probably a top five interior pass rusher in the NFL. I mean, he had a fantastic season last year. And when you watch that Eagles game, they lost that Eagles game in NFC Championship. What was the Eagles offense doing? Let's find the defensive tackle not named Eric Armstead and run the football at him, right? Because it was Javon Kinlaw. It was a rotation of pass-sushing

guys who couldn't hold up against the run. Javon Hargrave started his career as a nose tackle. And now is like a double-digit sack guy. Like he fundamentally solves the one problem, the best offense in the conference found last season. Delightful. Yeah. So that front seven,

I mean, Bosa, Hargrave, Armstead, I'm bullish on Drake Jackson. If Warner and Greenlaw, like, it's just,

I mean, they, you're, you're going to feel it the next day after you play them. They're going to be physical. They're going to make plays. So that, that's easily why I have them here in the top,

it's just a talent thing. And you nailed the two concerns that I have, and you absolutely could be right. It would not shock me if they're second. I do think there's a chance to Miko Ryan as like a special, special defensive coach. I mean, when you just look at what, like I think it's two years in a row

they've overperformed their talent in the secondary. Not that those guys are bad players, but you stack them up to some of these other defenses we have in the top five. And I think I would take most of these other teams secondary pieces over what the 49ers have. So just some concern there that is, you know, is Steve Wilkes going to be able to do that at the same level as D'Amico Ryan's,

even though I think Wilkes is a fine defensive coach and was a good hire by Kyle Shanahan. You mentioned it. Lenore and Ward, I think, are fine. You know, in the, in the slot, they've got Isaiah Oliver, they sign, but I just read on the athletic. I think that Ambrie Thomas is taking some first team reps in place of him. So they've got some options there. I'm just like, I would like to see that come together a little bit. So those were two. And then the other one, just in terms of natural regression and what I like to look at in terms of what defense is not going to perform as well. They were second in EPA on takeaways last year. So they really got a big boost from the turnovers. And they could again. They have a lot of good players. And when you

have a lot of good players and you're not playing great offenses, you're going to have a lot of takeaways. But that's an area why I thought, all right, maybe they come down a little slightly there. Maybe the corners aren't quite as good. Maybe Wilkes isn't quite as good as D'Amico Ryan's. And I'm going to bump them down a little bit. But yeah, I didn't have to, they were not a team. I consider do they belong in the top five or not? It was just a matter of where in the top five do they belong. All right, let's take a quick break. We'll come back and we'll talk about the New York Jets. Football season is about to kick off and Fanduil is giving you the chance to win all season long. Because right now, when you bet on a Super Bowl winner, you can get bonus bets every time they win

in the regular season. Just pick any team to win the Super Bowl and you'll get bonus bets for every victory. Let me know what the team I kind of like with that one right now. I might change My mind, but the since, how about the Cincinnati Bengals? They're my pick right now, as of this time in August, to win the Super Bowl. I think they're going to win a lot of games. I think this could be their year. They've got all the pieces on offense, and I trust their coaching defensively. So here's what you can do.

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Max bonus $50 unless specified otherwise. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fandul.com. All right. We are back on extra point taken. So you have the Jets third, you said? I do. Yeah.

which. Okay. All right. I sold me in the Niners or two. But I get why you have the Jets up there. I do. So the case for the Jets is pretty simple. They were awesome last year.

They faced the hardest schedule of opposing offenses last year. And they were third in success rate. There's like no smoke and mirrors with this group. They don't blitz a lot. They're just like, hey, our defensive line is going to be awesome. Quinn and Williams, awesome season last year,

got paid going to be fantastic again. This year. I like their blend of veterans and young players. at edge, you know, they've got John Franklin Myers and Carl Lawson, guys you kind of know what you're getting. And then you have guys like Jermaine Johnson and Will McDonald's where, man, if one or two of those guys pop, now you're talking about a really, really good edge group. So I like the front quite a bit. They've got physical linebackers. They've got a top two quarter, I would say, in Soss Gardner. If you want to tell me you want Patrick Sertan over him, that's fine. But I think one of those two guys is going to have the belt after this year.

If they don't already have it, DJ Reid at the other corner. spot is a talented corner. I have some questions at safety, no doubt about it. And then in terms of the regression, Ben, that I mentioned with the 49ers, it kind of goes both ways with the Jets. So one, they were the healthiest defense in the NFL last year. So their depth is most likely going to get tested more this season. On the other hand, they didn't benefit from turnovers at all last year. They had just 16 takeaways the entire season. That was the fourth fewest in the entire NFL. So you're probably most likely, the most likely outcome is that you're going to benefit from takeaways more than you did last year. So I kind of looked at that and said, all right, those two

things kind of cancel each other out. I like their talent at the premium position. I have no questions about the scheme. They had the scheme continuity that they had last year and they were really good last year. And so that's why I bumped them up and have them at number two. What are your concerns? Yeah, I think like, I think safety deserves a big circle where like they they live in nickel. This team runs 4-25 and nothing else, right? Like, it was actually like a bit of a problem for them last year where teams like, oh, no matter what we put on the field,

you're going to give us the same personnel package. Like, we can screw around with you guys a little bit. And so Jordan Whitehead who played a ton of snaps for them. Is a good player for his role. I think that he's also, you ask Jet fans how they feel about Jordan Whitehead to like get the guy off the team. Just because when there was a bad play, oftentimes it was Whitehead.

It was the dude in coverage. she was kind of getting attacked a little bit. So you have way ahead. You go and you bring in Chuck Clark to try to help solve that problem, right? Lamarcus joiner, 870 snaps. Lamarcus joiner out the door. So you go and you bring in Chuck Clark and then Chuck Clark gets hurt. And so now it's Tony Adams and Adrian Amos.

So I think that like you can pick on the jet safeties. And it's not hard to because they ask those safeties to do a lot. That's the nature of running this Robert Solic Quarter's defense and so on and so forth. So to me, that's a problem. That's tough for me to jump over. The defensive line thing is really interesting. because Jets team pressure, awesome, right? They were six in the league last year.

Jets sack performance, great. They had a good, they had ability to finish down and get the quarterback down and they get it from the interior. When you go and you go to circle the guy who's going to win on third and seven, it actually is like a little hard, right? Like, they've spent a lot trying to get like the one dude at edge. Right? Like, we talked about the Cowboys Parsons.

We talked about the Niners, Bosa. Now we get to the Jets. And it's like, okay, John Franklin Myers. Who's like, Franklin Myers is good players, a solid player. First round pick on Jermaine Johnson. He's not there yet. First round pick on Will McDonald this past year. I don't think he's going to walk in and be that player right away.

Huge contract for Coral Lawson, immediate injury. He's not that guy for them right now. And then they have Bryce Huff, who like on a snap-to-snap basis is like the most effective edge rusher in the league. But they don't put him out there on third and seven because he's like, he kind of wins as a rotational guy. They don't necessarily think he's that permanent dude. Michael Clemens, who was a rookie for them last season.

Clemens is a Doron Bland name. We're getting, we're getting to the hipster, the hipster guys. But Clemens just, just a big old honking edge who likes to defend the run, baby. Like so talented, so strong, great build. Another one of these, like, really high caliber recruits didn't necessarily pan out as much. But he's, again, like, he's not like an elite pass rusher. And so that's where, like, I get a little bit of worry, just because I don't think they have that, like, premier talent at Edge.

obviously they have the guy in the interior and Quinn. And it's just you don't really want to live in that world on third and seven. You don't want the guard. You don't want the divets of tackle to be the one winning. You want to be that outside guy because he's a lot easier to kind of feature and have him win that one-on-one tackles isolated on the outside. And so that's your little concerns, right? There's the safety depth. And then I wish I really believed in their ability to generate like a 15 sack guy at edge.

And I don't think they drafted that. I don't particularly, I wasn't a huge fan of Jermaine or Will McDonald come out of the draft. And so I don't particularly think they had that in the bill. building with that said like the two deep is nuts right on the defensive line and that's where you're gonna make your hay is all right like we might not win on a third and seven in the first quarter but we'll win on the fourth quarter because our guys are gonna be so fresh because we can rotate Quentin Jefferson and Solomon Thomas and Clemens and Jermaine Johnson and Alwood they lost Nathan Shepherd and that's it along

the defensive line they're still unbelievably deep and that's how Salah's always done it that's how he's always won it and and it it's a good formula it works and and it's reliable like there's still gonna be a high pressure defense and successful. So great group. Actually, the last guy who deserves a shout out, Quincy Williams, man. Quincy had himself. Physical. Yeah.

A season. Quincy, Quincy likes to hit. Fence of Robert Salon defense. Quincy's a lot of fun to watch. So two linebackers play great. Like I said, they leave on the field like 100% of the time and they play awesome. So this is talent. It's just I got little concerns. All right.

So Ben has Cowboys Niners Jets. I have Cowboys Jets. And now if you're saying, Sheel, you told me this was going to be a little more exciting than the offensive rankings. Yet, I've heard these names that I've heard all offseason about the defenses that are going to be good. Hit me with something that is going to surprise me. I'm going to hit you with one that's going to surprise you, Ben. Let's do our usual. I'll give you three guesses.

I'm telling you it's surprising. So you know it's not chalk. Who do you think I have at the number three spot that's not chalk? Patriots. Incorrect Commanders Incorrect Stealers

Stealers Incorrect although I did consider them Yeah I have Listen sometimes you take a swing on a podcast We're in the content business

You know And so I'm building us up If this is like the Ravens I'm going to be curious I've got the Cleveland Browns That's way too much That's insane Okay

That's worthy of a season. Yes, that's worthy of the build up because that's bananas. I didn't build it up too much. All right, let me give you the case why the Cleveland Browns are going to be the most improved defense in the entire NFL this season. I'm surprised no one else has had this take. To me, I felt good about it. This isn't just for content.

I don't know if I believe they're going to be three, but I definitely believe they're going to be one of the most improved units and a top unit this year. All right, let's start up front. Miles Garrett, awesome player. We know that. Also, Miles Garrett, most double-teamed player in the entire NFL. This has been a problem for the Cleveland Browns, although he still had 16 sacks last year,

despite getting double-team that much. Who do they add? They had Zadarius Smith, underrated season last year, 10 sacks, 24 quarterback hits. I don't know what Zadarius Smith. It does. It seems like he kind of wears out his welcome at some of these places in Green Bay and Minnesota.

But you know what? I'm talking about one season here. who can get after the quarterback, Zedarius Smith. They add, I think, a Ben Solac All-Star. Ogbo Okaranko? Is he a Ben-Solak All-Star? No, you like him, right? Aubo-O-O-O-O-O-O-Konquo. O'O'O'O'Konquo. Yeah, you find a Oklahoma prospect, Obo-Ocaronko Tweet or two on the Ben-Solak timeline.

Big fan. There you go. So they add him from the Texans, nice complimentary player. Dalvin Tomlinson at defensive tackle. Dalvin Tomlinson is one of these players that offensive linemen love to tell you about how underrated Dalvin Tomlinson is. Jason Kelsey was just doing it this week at Eagles Brown's joint practices, a very good player, a veteran who's going to help them in the middle there. They've added really nice pieces

around Miles Garrett up front to the point where you're saying, you know, we'll do our awards show later, but you were pencil in Michael Parsons for defensive player earlier. I might say, not so fast, my friend, in the words of Lee Corso. So love the front. And then I get to the back end, Denzel Ward, Martin Emerson, Greg Newsome. That is a fine group of course. You have a number one corner in Denzel Ward, assuming he is healthy. I like that. They can rush the passer. They can cover.

And then they made a big change at defensive coordinator. This was a team that was ready for a change at defensive coordinator. I thought they underperformed their talent last year. Jim Schwartz steps in there. Is their new defensive coordinator? Five years with the Eagles, Jim Schwartz, two top five defenses, never worse than 15th. And you could, ah, shield, the defense is about talent. That's true.

Guess what? He produced a top five defense. with Jalen Mills, Ronald Darby, and 30-year-old Patrick Robinson at cornerback. Like, I've seen Jim Schwartz do. Who was on the defensive line? Yeah, he, this is, I just told you this is a good defensive line. It might not be as good as those Eagles. Miles Garrett's better than anybody the Eagles had on those defensive lines that he had.

Who's playing defensive tackle next to Dalvin Thompson again? Listen, you can't be good at every position. That's why it's a sweet. If they had a pro bowler there, everyone would be picking them top five. Really? Real big Jordan Elliott fan over here at Chiaquapadia. Big Tommy Tungi, I believe. Huge Siaki Eco guy.

If you can't coach around the weakness at second defensive tackle, then come on. You don't earn your paycheck. This is Jeff Schwartz we're talking about. His entire career is predicated on being strong on second defensive tackle. Miles Gare is going to take three guys. No one's even going to be worried about that other defensive tackle next to him. Rush the passer, cover, like the coach, big leap, Cleveland Browns. number three defense in the NFL.

All right, Ben Solek has discussed it. Tell me why I'm wrong other than second defensive tackle. Well, okay, so they did sign Shelby Harris. I just remembered that because they also were worried about second defensive tackle. Nice against the past, but yeah, on early down, he's, you know. So firstly, this is one of my favorite things in the world is this Miles Garrett double-team thing. Miles Garrett, one of the most double-team players in the league. Absolutely, 100%.

What is it about, like, do you think offenses are just going to stop? Like, it's Miles Garrett. Like, I think his quiz deep is a double team where he's going to go down. I don't think it's going to be like, oh, no, it's Zadarius Smith. Let's double team Miles Garrett a league average amount. It's still, you're still, Miles Garrett. They're absolutely going to get. That's fine, but now you have someone who can make him pay a little bit at the other spot.

Which I, yes, but to me, like, that's not like the, the, the, the, the, the typical logical train is Miles Garrett was double team so much. He's still at 16 sacks. Zadaria Smith is here. Miles Garrett now defensive player the year. Miles Garrett now is going to have this huge breakout season. I just don't think, like, I think Miles Garrett's going to get 16 sacks while he's double-teamed roughly the same amount

and is going to continue to be one of the best defensive players in league. I don't think this actually like elevates Garrett that much. Garret is one of the three best defensive players in all of football last year. Like the ceiling only goes so high, right? Like I don't think there's actually that much more juice to get out of the Miles Garrett experience. He's already producing like league. sack rates, league high pressure rates. To me, like, he's going to continue to get double teamed a ton

because he's one of the best pass rushers. And he's going to continue to produce like crazy because he's one of the best past rushers. And you're really just banking on Zadaria Smith to be a high caliber second player, which, sure, like, I think that can be really positive for you. I think it'd be great on rush downs. Great on past rush downs. On running downs, on base downs, I'm still concerned. Like, I understand Delvin Tomlinson is supposed to be like the panacea.

He's supposed to be the one cure for all ills. But this is a small bad run defense front. And Joe Woods was a part of that. And now it's Jim Schwartz. I understand. And they're going to play one gap and they're going to be aggressive. And they're going to fly. And they're going to create TFLs.

But Jeremiah Wusu-Koramoa, Siontaki-taki, right? Like Shelby Harris is an interior player. This is not good run defense. And I don't think just being gapped out is going to solve that problem. Let's talk secondary. Let's start to get the safeties in the corners and the fit. This is a small secondary, right? I mean, like, the only thing stopping Denzo Ward and Greg Newsom from being the best corner duo in the league is two inches of height on each one of them, right?

Like, this is a smaller group. Juan Thornhill who plays safety is a cornerback transition, right? Grand Delpit, who plays strong safety for them is a player who is traditionally playing at free safety and does not have the desired mass. He's like 6-2-205. He's like a thin dude. And then Martin Emerson is very big, and I like Martin Emerson. But in general, this is a small defense. And I do not think they have solved all of their run problems in one season by hiring

Jim Schwartz and signing Delvin Tomlinson. That I don't, I don't buy. And it's worth emphasizing that this was not like, oh, a little bit of a bad run defense. This was the 28th rank run defense by DVOA last year. They were a bit small. And so for the Browns to jump as far as you want them to jump, Zary Smith has to be so high impact, right? It's a huge, huge, huge impact on to Darius Smith,

who was available for trade for a long time before the Browns got him, right? The rest of the league was kind of like, we're chilling. And then Delvin Tomlinson, who's like a fine player, but I don't, it's like, this is not Jeffrey Simmons we're talking about here. This is not Chris Jones, right? This is like a third tier defensive tackle. I think there's just, like, I hear the addition by subtraction in terms of moving from Joe Woods to Jim Schwartz.

I get that. I just think that there's too much, there's too much eggs in the basket of two veteran defensive linemen to just solve like all of the, problems that existed for a defense where most of the starters are returning. With Miles Garrett, I actually think there is more, what did you say, juice with the squeeze, squeeze with the juice. More meat on the bone. Meat on the bone.

Yeah, whatever, yeah. Yeah, I think he's been a fantastic player and I don't think he's one defensive player of the year yet in his career. I could be wrong about that, but he's been a consistently great player. And I think that's going to continue. And I think it's only a matter of time until he has one of these seasons where it's like, wow, he absolutely is the best defensive player in the NFL. And I think that could be this year. I think there's more to unlock there. Even if that double team rate goes down even a little bit,

that is going to create more opportunities for him there. I agree with you with the run. I have no real defense for the run defense not being great. I mean, if this prediction looks stupid, that's going to be the case. At the same time, would I rather be good at stopping the pass or stopping the run? Like, I feel very good that they could be very good at stopping the pass. And so I like them there. I do think Dalvin Tomlinson is going to help them quite a bit in terms of their run defense. And also better injury luck will help them as well. I think they were, they certainly had below average. I think injury luck last year, below average turnover luck last year.

So I like the pieces. I like the pieces with the pass rush. I understand what you're saying about their size across their defense. I mean, two years ago, I think they had the 11th ranked defense. So it's not like this has just been a disastrous defense for years and years with this same personnel. Like they were really good, not really good, but they were. were above average two years ago where now I think you make the upgrades on the coaching staff

and on the defensive line. And I think you have a chance to make another leap. So we'll say, listen, a few years ago, I picked the Vikings as my top defense. That didn't go so well. You take some swings. You connect on some. You miss on some. That's my case for the Cleveland Browns. All right. What do you got at number four for Benjamin Sola? I was trying to get a stat before you asked me for the next thing, but I didn't get any time. I know that, like, as of like last season, Miles Garrett's, like, sack per just game started number was like legitimately lead leading. And so it's just like, that was going to emphasize my meat on the bone thing, but whatever. I'll find it later and I'll tweet it out.

What number am I on four? Four. Okay. I, like, so I, I balanced my list off of a couple people before I did this, be like, does this pass the smell test? And this ended up being like more of a conversation than I realized it would be. I have the Eagles at four. Whoa. Yeah.

Let's hear it. Okay. I mean, like, to me, again, like, I didn't expect this to be a thing, but let's hear it. Hassan Reddick, Josh Sweat, Fudder Cox, Jalen Carter, Jordan Davis, Milton Williams, Brandon Graham, James Bradbury, Darius Lye, right? I mean, you're just naming players. What it came down to for me was I, like defense is is is is is is is is defensive line it's pass rush and it's coverage right like that's that's

those are fundamentally the two 10 polls that we talk about right and then obviously just brought up run defense a bunch with the browns their run defense was prohibitive to their success last season the eagles had a shakeier run defense last season but it was not prohibitive to their success it was still like above the bar right but fundamentally when we're building a good defense we're building out pass rush and coverage like that those are the two things which we want to dominate i think the Eagles too deep at the defensive line is not the best in the league as it was last season, right? The loss of Javon Hargrave just kind of necessitates that. Like, you're going to take a step back. But in general, I think this is one of, if not, the best two deep pass rushes, right? I didn't

even mention Nolan Smith first round pick when I was going through that list of names, right? They just have invested so much into this and they've had success winning with this, right? When they were good with Jim Schwartz, they were good because of their defensive line. When they were good with John Gannon, they were good because of their defensive line. They have a new defensive coordinator and Sean Desai, I don't think the formula is going to change. I think all defensive coordinators are good when they have a massively talented two deep defensive line. And that's what the Eagles have on a brunyly.

So they have a yearly basis. And then you go and you look at corner. And like this is where it gets tricky because James Bradbury and Darius Lay should not be expected to both start for 17 games because they're both over 30 years old playing a quick twitch position, right, playing a position like corner where, you know, it's hamstrings and its ankles and it's little injuries and it's easy. injuries. But man, like when they were out there last season, they're able to play dominant coverage and win with the passers. The reason this team had 70 sacks. And it's because it's so rare to

have this blend of we're able to get after the quarterback and we're also able to cover receivers for long enough. Like, that's why they produce. So that number is going to come down a little bit. But if you get healthy slay and get healthy Bradbury, I don't think, I think they're going to remain one of the top three pressure teams. And I think they're going to remain one of the top three sack teams. That's the drive killer. That's the ender, right? Now, the concern is the spine, right? The concern is you have changes at safety and you have changes at linebacker. T.J. Edwards and Kaiser White both depart in free agency. They're replaced by Nicholas Morrow and Nacobie Dean, assuming Dean is healthy. Zach Cunningham and Miles Jack obviously recently

signed. Tj. Garner Johnson and Marcus Epps both depart at safety. They're replaced by Reed Blankenship and Torell and men's draft pick, Sydney Brown. The interior of this defense has dramatically changed. But they, like, Chauncey had five picks. Besides that, these were not super high impact players for the Eagles last season, right? T.J. Edwards was, I think, the best linebacker the Eagles have had in a bit, but he was a plug-and-chug UDFA who is smart and worked hard.

You know what I'm saying? Like, NCOB should be reasonably based off of draft capital, able to become better than T.J. Edwards was. He's got to be able to stay on the field, but that's what you're hoping to get out of him, right? Reed Blankenship is the same thing as T. T.J. Edwards. They get a UDFA. He's smart. He's talented. He's tough. Throw him

out there. If he's a liability and coverage, well, we think we're just going to win with our pass rush. Like, the formula doesn't change even when the numbers change, linebacker and safety doesn't matter much to the Eagles. That's why all of those guys are the ones who left and they're just going to put new players in. So you get to step back, but again, I don't think it's a super substantial step back.

J.1 Hargrave is the one where you got to hold your breath, bench your nose and hope that Jalen Carter and Jordan Davis give you what you drafted. That's the one departure where I think it is really scary. But overall, like, I can't, the Eagles always build the defense to win through pass rush and coverage. And so I can't sit here and be like, oh, four departures.

that linebacker and safety really moves the needle too much for me. This team doesn't care about that. They always lose at those positions. They're just going to keep losing at those positions. And I think they're going to produce a top defense independent of that because of the way they built at the premium spots. All right. This isn't going to be popular with the Philly special audience,

who also sometimes tunes in to extra point taken. There are two defenses, I feel, are absolutely going to regress this season. We'll get to the other one, I think, in a few minutes. And the Eagles are the second one. and I don't know how far they're going to fall. I have them falling pretty far this season. I hear what you just said. I think this I, you know, there's,

they've gotten so much positive press for, oh my God, they just draft Georgia Bulldogs. Look at this. They're taking the Georgia defense. We haven't seen one of those players do anything for the Eagles. Okay, Jordan Davis last year had zero sacks and zero quarterback hits in the regular season. Solek liked his run defense.

I saw a run defense that improved when he got replaced by a guy off the street. in Linville Joseph. So he is a complete unknown. Maybe he'll be great. I have no evidence that he's going to be great. Jalen Carter, I think, was maybe the best non-quarterback in the draft. Guess what? He's a rookie. Go look at production of rookie defensive tackles in the NFL and how often they're getting after the quarterback. We just named Javon Hargrave, a top five interior pass rusher in the NFL. The most likely scenario there is they are taking a big step back with their interior pass rush. By the way, Fletcher Cox had like seven sacks last year. Fletcher Cox is a, I mean, he's going to be a declining player.

Like two years ago, everyone was ready for them to get rid of Fletcher Cox. He's not a bad player. He's a fine player. He's not the player he used to be. He's past his prime. So I think their defensive line, their pass rush is absolutely going to take a step back this year. I think they're fine on the edge as long as they stay healthy. But I think the interior past, I mean, last year, Ben, they stacked opponents on 11.2% of their past attempts.

that's the highest rate for any team since 2000. Like there's just no chance that they're going to be as good up front as they were last year in creating those negative plays. So that's the pass structure, which I agree with you. It's still going to be good above average. It's just not going to be nearly as good as last year. Let's take a look at the other stuff. Injury luck.

They had all 11 starters healthy for the Super Bowl last year. That never happens. That's not going to happen. They're going to get hit with more injury luck this year than they were last year. They faced the second easiest slate of opposing offensive. last year. It's not a murderer's row this year, but it's absolutely going to be harder than it was last year. They were a top five team in EPA on takeaways last year. Again, maybe they'll get good turnover luck this year. Maybe they won't. Not something you can count on. And then, I mean,

those areas, I agree with you. Linebacker in safety are generally not like make or break. Like, this is going to determine your season. But they are searching for linebacker help. I mean, they just signed Miles Jack and Zach Cunningham off the street. Nicopi Dean. I I think we both like him, could not get on the field last year and replace Kaiser White, who we both know was not playing very well for them. And Nkobie D never got a look in terms of playing time last year. So to me, he's a complete unknown, even if you have high hopes for him. And then safety, I actually like read Blankenship at the one safety spot.

The other safety spot is completely up in the air. So you're talking about a team that the most likely scenario is there going to be worse at safety, at linebacker, at defensive tackle. And then you made the key point with corners, which is, a stat you're probably so tired of me repeating. There were three corners 30 or older last year who played 500 snaps on the outside. Darius Slay, Patrick Peterson, and Stefan Gilmore. The Eagles have two corners on the outside who are 30 or older. Those are not going to be ascending players. Now, maybe they're able to maintain the play they had last year. You're right. They were both

great last year. But there's also a very likely scenario where their play starts to decline, maybe where you have some injuries there at corners. So I just add all those. things up and I feel very confident, and I shouldn't be overconfident, that this Eagles defense is going to take a step back. Like, last year was that everything went right type season for the Eagles defense. I don't, like, I've got them coming back all the way to the middle of the pack, and that might be too far, but I didn't even consider them as to be in the top five for defenses this year. I'm not tired of the over 30-year-old cornerback stat. I'm tired of the... Your face said you were tired. Your face said, I want to punch you in the face right now.

I'm tired of the Nacobie Dean didn't play over Kaysier White's nap. They didn't teach Nkobie Dean Will. They just didn't ever tell him. And that's Jonathan Gannon's fault. It's not Nikobe's fault. And like, I mean, it is. I don't know. Okay.

Well, if they didn't like what they were getting at Will and they drafted a rookie in the third round, don't you think someone in the building would say, hey, let's teach him this position and see if he can be better than the guy who's not being very good for us? I would have loved if they did, but they didn't. And like that, again, like I very much struggle to put that on Nukobi. I don't struggle at all to put that on the man who got a head coaching job and immediately signed in free agency, Kaiser White, who very, because Gannon very clearly did not feel like Kaiser was a problem for them, right?

Like, otherwise he would have had Nacobi learn at will, but he didn't. He never did. Like, that's, to me, that's fundamentally coaching. And that's like, you know. Well, hold on. We also have the data point of where Nicopi Dean was drafted. I mean, it was supposed to be a first round pick and he falls to what the third round, 83rd in the draft.

Again, I'm not saying you can't find a great player in the third round, but those are like the only two data points we have with Nacobo B. Dean since draft day are that maybe he is a little overrated by the public. I have a third draft, a data point on Nkobie Dean, which is more, it's not since draft day.

He goes beforehand, it's watching and play football at Georgia. Yeah, right. And that, to me, is a much larger data point than the other two data points. I,

like, there's nothing, like, there's no response to like linebacker and safety change. Like, you're absolutely correct. I just don't like, the Eagles do not

they don't think they win through those positions and I can't argue with it to a degree but when you have such premier talent at the other spots the effects does become nullified I think you bring up a very good like obviously the sack numbers are going to go way down the other thing about the sack numbers going down is that the Eagles are probably

just a lot less likely to be playing as many blowouts as they did and that's where the Eagles picked up so many of those garbage time sacks, right? They picked up so much of, like, the opposing team is down by 14. If the quarterback takes a sack now, it's the same as an incompletion. Like, they're still going to lose. They're just holding onto the ball trying to make a play. When you go and you control for early down pressure rate, when you go and you control for first three quarters, pressure and sack rate, the Eagles still remain one of the top teams in the league. Like, this team was still a dominant pass rush with the players that they had. Again, like, the loss of Hargrave is the one where it's

like, like, you got to pinch your nose and go. But like, as a guy who really like Jalen Carter's film and as a guy who thought William's played great down the stretch, I think that they can find good interior pass rush. And the endomic and Sue and Linball Joseph of it all still sits there. If they're having problems at defensive tackle, they've shown we can just cycle veterans in here and get them in the rotation and be successful. The last thing is like, I think that we didn't do, we didn't talk much about Gannon to decide. And I think that they are going to run a better, more versatile defensive scheme than they ran last season.

Gannon leveraged his work with Eagles defense, which was an unbelievable defense last year and do a head coaching job. I don't think Gannon is a bad coach. I do think Gannon is a very simple, basic lineup and play coach and decide to try to accomplish a lot more. And that can be bad with young players, and it can put too much pressure on the young safeties, and there's going to be ways where that's a headache. But in general, I think that's better for the defense overall

in terms of how you play schematically. And I think that'll help stave off some of the regression. The regression that's inherently going to happen. I think that'll help save it off a little bit. I think they're going to be smarter on third downs. I think they're going to be better against elite quarterbacks. And like, that's something that they desperately need in that building.

I actually agree that the coaching could be better, maybe not immediately. But I do think there's a chance that like Eagles fans come December actually feel better about this defense because they're like when we have to play a great quarterback, maybe we have some more wrinkles here with Desai than we had with Gannon. I mean, just look at it last year. The best quarterbacks they beat were Kirk Cousins and Daniel Jones.

You know, they only face DAC once. He picked him apart. We saw what Mahomes did to them, and the schedule just gets harder this year where I have to see it to believe it. All right. Number five, who do you have for number five? Because I have a big swing at number five that you're at. If you thought you were yelling at me about the Browns, wait until you hear who I have at number five. So you go first and then I'll finish it off with that.

I don't even know how to calibrate to this anymore. I have the Ravens. Is that crazy? Okay, so I actually had the Ravens as of this morning and the Marlon Humphrey injury, even though we don't know how severe it's going to be. When I hear surgery, several weeks, unsure for start of the season. And they refused to say exactly what the injury is. Yeah, that made me go, jeesh.

So go ahead, make the case for the Ravens, and then we can talk about that. I'm a little. No, I literally, I said, like I said, I was bouncing the list of a couple of people. And I literally said to someone, I was like, I'm going to have to move the Ravens out of five because of the Humphrey injury. And then I just forgot to do it. And so here they are at five. It's very, it's very bad. I'll tell you why it's very bad. Because I put the Eagles at four, and I said, you built through the pass rush and you built through the outside corner position and then you win at these premiums. And that's how you do in defense. Here, the Ravens are at five, which is the exact opposite argument, right? The Ravens have built through the spine, right?

defensive tackle, Justin Mada, UK. They have Michael Pierce, Travis Jones, they have a great interior. Roquan Smith and Patrick Queen, obviously unbelievable. Once Roe Juan joined the defense, they were a top five defense last year. Excuse me, a top 10 defense last year, by DVOA, EPA, and success, right? They were clearly one of the best units. And then at safety, right, they add Kyle Hamilton to a room that has Marcus Williams in it,

and they start to get some really, and at the time, they had Chuck Clark, and they started to get some really cool big nickel stuff, three safety stuff. Kyle Hamilton's playing over the slot. He's a unique slot player. he solves the tight end problem, he solves the run defense problem. It's so great.

And it doesn't matter that they don't have a true elite outside pass rusher. They're just living off Justin and Jason Pierre Paul. It doesn't matter that outside corner two besides Marlon Humphrey is a little bit of an issue for them

because the spine here is so good, right? So they're built in the opposite direction of the Eagles, which you're allowed to build defenses multiple ways. I think that last season for the Ravens was such a clear learning curve for Mike McDonald, tried to win with a four-down rush early in the season, realized it wasn't enough. more pressures, more

bullets is more simulated pressures in the second half of the season. Try to play Kyle Hamilton, deep safety, realized he was going to be better closer to Atlanta scrimmage, moved his position. Realized that they were

two week at linebacker to run the coverages they were running. If you're going to be a quarter's team, you need to have good coverage at Mike. So they go and they get Roewan Smith. So they're going to high patch a queen a little bit more. And down the stretch of last season, you just saw this defense really coalesce to come together.

They can take another step if they get something out of Odafe Owe. It was a first round pick in 2021, had some really flashy stuff in his run. rookie season, took a step back as a sophomore, probably need him to be a little bit bigger, a little bit heavier, a little bit more disciplined. You know, O'Dafé has always been a high caliber athlete who's just kind of figuring it out

on the field. And that shtick starting getting a little bit old and it's time like, you know, to know where your bread is buttered for him. And then David Ojabo, who was the second round pick last year out of Michigan, was rumored to be a potential first round pig before he had a pre-draft injury. And he just never really got on the field for significant snaps and certainly was not conditioned and was not out to NFL weight when he got to those snaps. And so out of those two players, now them fighting for a spot opposite Tias Bowser, who's a great, like, you know, Jackal All Trades, outside linebacker for them, they need to get substantial pass rush.

If you get that and Marlon comes back and can play opposite Rockieson, who I think Rockieson is a much better second corner than first corner for them. They have this huge slot nickel third corner battle going on right now with Ardarius Washington and Demarian Williams and Brandon Stevens. I think you're going to get, you've got guys who have started there. You've got guys who have played different roles. They're going to be okay. but if they get Marlin for the season, which, yeah, as the last 24 hours, that's a big question mark. And then with O'Dafay O'A and with David O'Jabo, you just have two dice rolls, one of those hits. And this defense, all 11 is one of the best units in the league with a really, really good defensive coordinator with a system that works.

There's gaps, though. There's holes to poke, certainly, with that corner position, that edge position, which I understand just 10 minutes ago, I was saying are the most important things in the world. Yeah, I honestly don't have that much. it more to add. Like, I liked what I saw from Mike McDonald last year. I actually, with the edge rush stuff, I'm just like, they'll figure it out. One of these young guys will stuff. Like, I do feel like this is like five years running where I'm like, oh, I don't know. Do they have enough pass rush there? And then all of a sudden, I look up in week 14 and oh, the Ravens have like a top seven or a defense. So like, I really trust the infrastructure here with McDonald, with John Harbaugh,

with the style of players they have with what you said about how it just looked like a different defense after they added Roquant Smith last year. I think Kyle Hamilton could really be like a breakout star this year for that Ravens defense. But, man, for me to get to a top five spot where I'm like, don't know about the pass rush, don't know about the cornerbacks. Like, we're not saying that about, you know, a lot of the other teams. I think Jeff Zriebeck of the Athletic, who does a great job covering the Ravens was like Marlon Humphrey was their second player that, you know, the player they could least afford to lose behind Lamar Jackson, which I was like, wait, that can't be true, can it? And then I'm like, oh, no, wait. Yeah, like, I think that that probably is true,

you know, unless you wanted to name an offensive lineman, uh, or you really like one of those wide receivers and think they give them a big edge over everyone, everyone else. But yeah, I mean, there, that was like already a question mark for the Ravens. And now if I'm not sure when I'm getting Humphrey back, well, I love Humphrey, by the way. I think he's, he's awesome. He's one of my favorite corners, uh, to watch. But if you're not sure what version of him you're getting back, if you're not sure when he's coming back. Like, that just adds such an element of uncertainty to me that I had to, I had to move them down.

I just did this. Like I had him at five, like I said. And then I'm like, all right, how far do I want to move him down? I actually moved him down to nine, but that was very. Wow. That was haphazard. I just don't know. I mean, if you told me, hey, you're getting Humphrey week, like week two and he's

going to be the same guy, I probably would have just kept them at five. Like, there's a chance that happens. And they're great. I do like this defense quite a bit, but that uncertainty. just scared me a little bit. So I will never forget 2019 Marlon Humphrey, man. Like after he had a couple years in the league, got his sea legs under him. And that was like prime wink era.

They're blitzed like 50% of their dropbacks that season or something. And Marlon just played everybody for man coverage every Sunday for four quarters for 17 weeks. And it was unbelievable. And then since that it's just battled injury and it's not been the same guy. But I still like every time I think about Marlon Humphrey, I think about that season. I'm like, he can get there again. He can do it. we're going to be fine.

Yeah, and he's 27 years old. So that was the, oh, no, 2020. 2020 was when I found love Ben. Eight forced fumbles. That was, that was his DNA punch era. He was just saving them by doing the peanut punch. I'm like, I love this guy. This is amazing.

How does he do it? Eight forced fumbles for a quarterback? Get out of here. That's like impossible. So, yeah, we both love. The problem with eight forced fumbles is you're giving up too many catches. If you're having eight forced fumbles, that get in the ball too frequently. That sounds like.

like it would be like a Capadia backyard football move. Like I know I can't cover this guy. Let's let him catch it. And then maybe I can like tell him, ice cream truck, he looks over and then bam. But it's like it's like you and I've been going to training camps. You know every single time a player comes through the secondary carrying the football,

offensive player. What are the defensive backs coaches make him do? Hit that ball. Just swinging the ball. You're not allowed to tackle him. It's not a tackle practice. All right. Punch a football.

Watch all we're doing. There are many reasons why I could never be an NFL player we could spend out. But, God, that would really annoy me if I were an offensive player. It's like, you know, August 22nd, we've had, you know, 25 practices. I just make a case. And then this guy is just coming over and trying to, like, leave me alone. Stop trying to punch the ball out of my arms. All right.

Let's take one more quick break. And then you're going to rip me for my number five selection. All right. We are back on extra point taken. So I had the Ravens initially, like I said, I moved them out. I said, who do I want to stop? in there. We've got to make this a good show. And at first I go, you know what? I kind of like that Bill's defense. And I go, Sheal, come. No. No. Bill's the, our social media team isn't going,

oh, Sheila, I really like that Bills, you know, that Bills defense is good take you has. The people, even someone commented on our last one, they're like, you should have just gone through those first four offenses in the first 10 minutes and talked about the rest. I'm like, all right, not a bad piece of feedback there. So I said, if you're going to take a swing, and this is a team I had in the top 10 anyway, I said, so you're not moving them. up that high. I think I had him nine. Take the big swing. Do you want any guys? Gosh, you worry me. You deeply concerned me. You know what? I'll say this. I think you're going to like this one more than you liked my brown one. Okay. Steelers? I helped you or hurts you. No, I did consider them.

Dolphins? No, I thought you were going to have them. I have them. I, I, if Rams you were healthy, they would have been top five for me. But we'll do our six to ten after they. Yeah. Denver? No, but I did consider that. Here it is, Ben. The Carolina Panthers. Wow. What do you think?

What do you think? You like the Panthers Day or no? I like a Giro E. I mean like that. You don't like him that much. If the Panthers are a top five defense, I would be firing my head coach to hire a GeroE ever. I'd be firing Andy Reed to hire a Gero Eadro. Those two seasons, man.

Holy smokes. All right. So here's the case, Adjero Eever, you mentioned. And we talked about him. I feel like a good amount last year on extra point taken during the season when we're like, hey, we know the Broncos are a train wreck, but this defensive coordinator is really doing a good job. And they had a top 10 defense last year. What I liked is he really had to like manufacture a pass rush on that team.

That wasn't a hey, just, you know, line them up and let our guys win our one-on-ones. Like your defense was going to suck if you did that. And he recognized that. They trade Bradley Chub. They didn't have a lot of talent up front. And they still had a very good defense. Now, they didn't have no talent on defense. They had a top two corner in Patrick Sertan.

They had Justin Simmons there at safety. But I look at some of the pieces on this Panthers team. Brian Burns, edge rusher, like him a lot. Derek Brown, defensive tackle, like him a lot. Cornerback, J.C. Horn, like him a lot. Jeremy Chin, safety, nickel. It seems like he's playing in a few different spots. Like him a lot.

Look at the lineback. Frankie Louvre. What did he have seven sacks last year? Frankie Louvo. He's like a hip city all-star, right? Yeah. I'd be tossing football hipsters at you right now for Frankie Louvre. It's a classic.

Yeah, he's the one. I only go to like one meeting a month to the football hipster society. That's when they do Frankie Louvre night. The other ones, I'm like everybody settled down. But I put on the flannel. I let the mustache grow a little bit. You know, I discover I play a little mountain joy on my way there. And then I hit up the Frankie Louvo meeting with the football hipsters.

Added Von Bell in the offseason, good, reliable veteran safety played well for the Bengals. And I'm like, does this? team maybe have enough to be really good. They have nice players at premium positions. They have a coach I like. They have some complimentary players I like. You know what? I'm going to take my swing. So that's the case for the Panthers. Now listen, the Panthers are thin. If they get hit with those players I just mentioned, if any of them goes down for an extended period of time, you're going to be saying, chill, that was the dumbest take you had. I understand that. They need to not have like elite injury luck, but they need those guys that I mentioned to be on the field because I do think.

they're a little top-heavy. I like their complementary pieces when they are complementary to those players who I think can be really, really good. When they have to do more, then I think it could get ugly. But that was the case.

So like I said, I initially had them at nine and then I go, you know what? Just go ahead and take the swing. That one person who commented, wow, super chalky, top offense is boring. Really got to your head. Holy smokes.

Yeah. I would say that feedback gets in my head more than it gets in your head. That's because you read the feedback. Just random, random feedback whether, yeah, it really could be anybody. So I probably, you know what? I thought we haven't talked about the painter's defense. Let's talk about them.

And every time you share the pod, I'm just going to hit it, be like, not enough Ben. She was too mean to Ben. Ben, she gets to talk more and be argued with less. Right, let's get it in Shield's head. Here we go. One thing I know is sure, nobody wants us to argue. The one consistent piece of feedback we've gotten is arguing. you more. We like that. That makes for a fun podcast. The feedback I always get about our arguments

is from my mom who is like, Sheel's the best. Your paws with the show are the best because he's the one who actually like gets you, like makes you shut up. And I'm like, yeah, that's fair. He's good at that. Oh, thank you, Mama So la. See? I have the Jets it too, just for her. All right. What do you think of this panther's defense other than what I said? I'll be honest. I looked at the depth chart and I was like, yeah, I can get there. Why not? They, you forget the degree of stability. Right? Like, they, like, Jeremy Chin, Dante Jackson,

J.C. Horn, Brian Burns, Shaq Thompson, Frankie Louvo, Derek Brown. That's seven of the 11 starters. They, this all be at least their third season together. And I think if you take Louvo out,

no, Louvo and Brown are both 2021. So the young core, I remember, like, writing about Phil Snow two years ago. And when Matt Rul first got this job being like, they got a young core,

they're doing some cool stuff. Like, this is going to get there. And then obviously a bunch of stuff hit the fan for Carolina. But now you're sitting there going like, this is a really solid group of like late 20s to mid-20s established players. And like, yes, it would be great if your turgros modos rounded out the way he wanted him to. But you go sign Justin Houston.

And it's okay, right? Xavier Woods, Eric Rowe, Von Bell. Like, they got the safety room right now to be like really, really dynamic on the back end, which is really what you want out of Averro, right? Averro had in Denver, Justin Simmons, Caden Stearns, and then the third guy whose name I always forget. And that, like, that core was so critical to how to how they operated. So, like, they ran out the safety room really nicely.

J.C. Horn, like, they got the same Ravens problem where, like, corner two, you really got a squint. It'd be nice if C.J. Henderson could really take that step for them that they're hoping for. So, like, besides that, elite pass pressure, good spine, or not elite, nearly past rusher and Brian Burns. And then good spine. Like, there's a lot to like, especially for, like, a big fanjo style defense. I'm, you, you can get me on board.

You cannot get me on the Cleveland on board with Cleveland. You can get me on board with this. There we go. All right. So that was a swing we're taking with the Carolina Panthers. All right. Those were our top five. That was fun.

We disagreed. We're taking shots at each other. And we'll see how it all plays out. We'll probably be wrong on many of them. That's part of the fun. Okay. Six through 10. So like here's who I've got.

At six, I've got the Buffalo Bills. Did you have them somewhere in your... I have the bills out. side of my top 10. Really? Okay. What's the case? I don't think I don't think they have enough impact players, right? Like, Vaughn healthy, there's one. Ed Oliver, to me, is not a high impact defensive lineman. He's a good one. Matt Milano is a probably a high impact linebacker, but not playing a premier position. I think both Poir and Hyde are good players. I don't think they're high impact safeties. I think they're like, you know, fringe top 10 guys.

Trinatus White was a high impact guy coming back from the injury definitely was not last year. I'd love to see him like a year to move be more, more healthy. But then corner two is a huge problem. Do you see the bills released their depth chart? And as I said at Corner 2 is Christian Benford or Kyrielem or Dane Jackson. Love to have a three, a trio.

Love to have a group of three at Corner 2 figuring it out. That's just awesome. That's great. Super healthy. And then like, right, you, in theory, you have a great too deep, right? Because you've added so much to the defensive line. So there's a lot of names that you reckon. When you actually sit down and think about it, like, AJ F, Vanessa, Gregorosso, Boogie Basham, Dequan Jones, Tim Settle.

It's just like, it's like, this isn't the Jets, this isn't the Eagles, this isn't the Niners. You don't actually have like that caliber of a defensive line. And then, you know, Leslie Frazier steps down, needs a break, you know, don't worry, it's fine. Yeah, exactly. And then all of a sudden is working for NFL network, you know, when you step down and then three months later you have a media job. And Sean McDermott is taking over the defense. And that worries me. I think Sean's a good defensive coach.

I just think doing the defensive coordinator plus head coach thing is really hard. I think it's harder than offensive play caller plus head coach. I think defensive play call as head coach is really challenging. And I'm not sure that enough is going to change in how Buffalo plays football to like elevate the team. I'm worried about those defense. I think those are all fair points. The ones I had like their best players are also kind of their oldest players. players. I mean, Von Miller, Micah Hyde, Jordan Poir, I think all those guys are 32 years or older.

So that makes me a little bit nervous. They've taken all these, I think so. They've taken all these dart throws on defensive linemen, past rushers like you mentioned, and they've got fine players, but they don't have anyone who I think, you know, I feel like they would have hoped by now to have gotten more from that unit. And they wouldn't assign Von Miller if they did. So that makes me a little bit nervous. The McDermott thing's interesting. I almost feel like that's more of a case for why you wouldn't be high on the bills because I don't, like, I think the defense is going to kind of be his baby and he's going to be like, I got this. Leslie Frazier's not here. I'm focused on making this defense good. That could result in some game management stuff, but I think he's going to be fine calling the

defense, but I think that's fair as well. So now, then why shield did you have them number six? So they got crushed by injuries last year. They were fourth in DVOA and they had the second most injured defense in the NFL. I mean, Von Miller, Tradavius, White, Micahe, Jordan Pyer, combined to play just 31 games. Now, you could say, but you just told me they're older players, older players get injured more. That's fair. That's why I don't have them quite as high, but I do feel like they got decimated. They're like if Von Miller and Tradavius White specifically, I think if those two guys can stay healthy, I feel pretty good about this defense. And I do trust McDermott probably maybe a little bit more than you in terms of just.

the infrastructure. And I think they're in the same scheme. They're not making, you know, big changes schematically. And they've had a top eight defense four times in five years with McDermott. And they've never been lower than 12. So I feel like I'm with you on the talent. Like if you just showed me on paper, hey, here are the depth charts. I would probably have them a little bit lower.

But I do think McDermott is a good defensive coach. And I'm kind of giving them the benefit of the doubt. McDermott's the pivot there for sure, right? If he actually elevates the unit, it's a top 10 unit in terms of talent. I'm not convinced that's going to happen just because of the bandwidth required to do so. Yeah, that's fair. All right. Seven, I've got the Pittsburgh Steelers.

Yeah. What do you think of the Steelers? You've got them in the top ten? Steelers are nine for me. Okay. It's the Pittsburgh Steelers defense, right? Like, I look at that cornerback room and I feel my gag reflex. And then I'm still like, yeah, probably top ten unit.

Like, I don't know. It's, you know, you set your watch to it at a defense of Pittsburgh, especially when Watt Hayward, Alice Highsmith, they give a big extension to Keanu Benton. Man, oh man. You ready for a football hifter guy

and Keanu Benton? Second round, knows taggbought in Wisconsin. I'll come to those meetings also. I like him a lot coming out. And then lineback room has changed, right? Miles Jack and Devin Bush out.

Cole Holcomb and the Landon Roberts Inn. I think the lineback room got better. And that's kind of the Pittsburgh way, right? I don't think that's controversial. Yeah. Yeah. They slide in these free agents and the contracts don't look huge,

but then you go down a brass tax. They either are the same or improved, and kudos to them for that. So, yeah, Pittsburgh's top 10 for me. Yeah, I think of the teams we're talking about here, maybe no bigger disparity from the front to the corners than the Steelers. It's like, the front.

I'm just like, oh, should I have them three? Like, could just be an unbelievable defensive front. And then I get to the corners and I kind of did what you did. I'm like, eh, don't exactly love these guys, but they'll probably figure it out. And Minka Fitzpatrick's the best safety in football. So at least it's not the entire secondary. It's just corner.

So yeah, TJ Watt missed seven games last year due to injury. I normally don't love like on-off splits for defensive players, but I don't know. They've been pretty telling with T.J. Watt over the years that as long as he's on the field, they're really good. When he's not on the field,

they're not nearly as good. So I like the Steelers there at 7. Where do you have the New England Patriots, Benjamin Sula? If we haven't talked about them, I've got them either. I have the Patriots at 6, and I really thought you were going to have him top 5,

and that just made me feel a little bit better about not having them top five. I mean, like, yeah, like everything you said about the Steelers, but then making a Bill Belichick defense. Also remark on how good this team was in pressure situations last year, a little bit of a no-name sensation. But Matt Juden, to me, is one of the most underrated players in the league. Juden is such a good, fundamental three-down edge. He can play the run. He can play the interior, hand down, stand up. He can do everything. And usually the kicker on that guy is, he's a 10-sac guy. And with Junie's a 16-sack guy. Like, I don't even know what we're, like, he's an

unbelievable plan. So good for the Patriots, but just so good period. Fundamentally, one of the best players in the league. Just does everything well at a high level. And then good Christian Barmore, good Joshua,

and you kind of round things out. And then secondary-wise, I think that that Patriots secondary. Like, I think it's very tropey to be like, oh, you know, the Patriots are going to put anybody out there

and it's going to be, you know, fine, right? No, like, they legitimately like, like Jonathan Jones can play. Jack Jones can play. Like, Jalen Mills, I'm not super thrilled about it, but they know how to use him and they know how to hide him. Kyle Dugger's unbelievable, right?

Like, Kyle Dugger is in like, this is not just like a Belichick secondary being elevated. This is a group of players that would be legitimately good. And then Belichick on top of them elevates them a little bit, right? If Christian Gonzalez, let's say you get from Christian Gonzalez like a J.C. Horn, Patrick's or Tan, rookie season, which I know is like, whoa, but like a really good rookie season. this might be the best secondary league. And that's what you're hoping from Gonzalez, who Gonzalez was going to be like a top 10 pick. You know, like this is, this is a,

I had him as a top 10 great. I loved him coming out. And so also worth remarking this secondary, they got a little bit of an issue in the slot, I acknowledge, but overall, I think the secondary is one of the better ones in the league. Gonzalez hits and then add the Belichick adjuster.

This could be like legitimately the best cover group in the NFL. Yeah, I've got to make the reason I don't have them higher, as I mentioned earlier, There were two teams that I think just looking at it statistically are going to face regression this year. One was the Eagles. The other was the Patriots when you just look at kind of how they did it last year. 30 takeaways. No team benefited from a higher EPA on takeaways than the Patriots last year.

And now they face the hardest schedule in the NFL. So like to me, that's almost certainly coming down just based on the opponents that they're going to play. And then they were top three in terms of injury luck. Their depth didn't get tested as much last. year. We're now if you suffer some injuries there to the key play. I don't mean to say that for every defense. It's just that, hey, why wouldn't this defense be as good as it was last year? I think that's something to look at when you look at some of these defenses that were really healthy last year. So those were two are the reasons I bumped them down a little bit. I think the schedule is going to be

harder. I think they're not going to be able to rely as much on turnovers. And I think there's a pretty good chance. They're not going to stay as healthy this year as they stayed last year. Let me ask you this. So they had 13 players who logged at least 400 snaps last year, 12 of our back. So that's wild continuity. Like, this isn't like, hey, let's change this game. The one player who's not back. I'm trying to think. I'm trying to, I didn't hear it. I'm trying to think. Is it Atlanta? No, no, Atlanta was on the dolphins.

Shoot, who was it? It's going to bother me. You need to when you're like, don't tell me you should do like the safety sign or something. What can we do? Cover my ears when I'm wearing headphones. Okay, who is it? It's going to drive me nuts when you say it. It's Devin McCordie. It's McCordie. It's McCordie. It's McCordie. It's McCordie. It retired. I got it in before you said it. I did.

But it's annoying that took me that long. So is that? I was trying to gauge how, like, McCordy has just been there for so long and no E is just, you know, not to break out the cliches, but coach on the field. That was exactly what Belichick wants to do. And like I like Christian Gonzalez a lot too.

I agree with you. If he's Patrick Sertan as a rookie, then this is too low for them. I also think that that can be tough for some rookie quarterbacks. How much do you think that loss of McCordy, affects them or is it like, you know, they'll figure it out with somebody else.

That would be all right. I think that, again, like if they dramatically increased Jalen Mills's snaps, I'm concerned. I'm really picking on Jalen Mills here, but I think that he and Miles Bryant

were the issues for them last season when they were on the field. Again, Jim Schwartz, coached the top five defense with Jailen Mills has his top corner. Sorry, go ahead.

You're going to be okay? Okay. But Adrian Pheltson, Caldoggers are really nice duo. I think they're going to be okay in that regard. Okay. All right. Nine, I've got the Ravens. You already mentioned the Ravens. Ten, I think I may surprise you with this one. I'm not sleeping on the Tampa Bay Buccaneers defense. I don't think the team's going to be good. I like that. I like that. I think the defense is going to be pretty good. I mean, they were 13th in DVOA last year with Todd Bowles in four seasons.

They've had a top 10 defense three times. I just look at the depth chart. Oh, Shaq Barrett, Levante, David, Jamel Dean, Carlton Davis, Vita Vaya, Antoine Winfield. Yes, I like these players. These are good football players playing in the same scheme for, you know, Todd Bowles that they have been playing for three or four years. And I think, like, there's a chance that their defense is just good enough to prevent them from getting Caleb Williams or Drake May. Like, that was my note.

Like, ooh, you might have to get rid of some of these defensive players. So I've got the Bucks 10th. Who did I miss, whether you have something on the Bucks or not? Who else did I miss in the top 10 that maybe you had? Yeah, so I don't have the bucks top 10, but I don't mind that, right? It's just like Todd Bowles plus a ton of talent. So yeah, for me, it went the top five as we went through, and then six, the Patriots. At seven, I still have the dolphins.

I think even before Jalen Ramsey, the dolphins were just generally an ascending defense, right? I love what you have in Jalen Phillips as a developing star pass rusher. And I love the depth that you have behind him, right, in Zach Seeler. I always want to call him Seiler, but it's Seeler. Zach Sealer, Manuel Agba. Christian Wogan is of Raqwan Davis to me, one of the best young interior duos in the league. Raquan Davis, I learned when I tweeted about the Dolphins defense,

in my opinion, very underrated by Dolphins fans. Raqwan is such a good player against the run, such an important keystone in letting the other players fit in their good roles. I love the linebacker duo, Jerome Baker, and David Long, HVHC president for the, yeah, for one year. Right. they bring in Bradley Chubb, right,

to be that opposite edge rusher to Jalen Phillips. And Chub, sack numbers, since he had the major injury, not as high. I still see a good player when I watch him play. I still see a good three-down player, an impactful player against the run of player can generate pressure. And then secondary-wise,

Brandon Jones and Javon Holland is, I mean, this, this, this, this, like, this is a star safety group. And I don't know, I don't want to just say, like, everybody's underrated on the Dolphins defense. That's not fair. There's a lot of people who appreciate those. Like, Javon Holland is one of the great,

young playmakers in this league. And Brandon Jones compliments him perfectly, right? Can play deep, can still rotate down, can tackle. Like loss of Eric Rose is a little bit, worrisome of they bring into Sean Elliott. I think they're going to be okay. Corner, you know, Byron Jones medically retires. Zavian Howard's not the same player he was. Jalen Ramsey was going to solve a lot of problems for them on the outside, play Cater Cahoo in the slot. Kater Kayhoo is a discount drawn bland on the vent. So it'll actually, fun little nickel. And then Ramsey goes down. And that knocked them down on my rankings. They were going to be five for me. I would wager before the Ramsey injury.

But you bring all this talent, you give it to Vic Fangio, who just is just good. Like, oh, the Big Fangio defense is taking over. Yeah, when Vic Fangio was coaching defenses in San Francisco, they were good. You know what I'm saying? Like, he just is good at this.

Vic is the crowning jewel, my unified theory of defensive coaches. Have I told you this before? No. So I have a grand, so grand unified theory of defensive coaches. In order for a defensive coach to be good, they must be one of two things.

All the good defensive coaches are one of two things. Super old. Super Jacked. It's one of the two. You either got to be ancient or yoked. Okay? And big fans, yo are super old category. Dan Quinn, super old.

Wake Marndale, super old, right? Great. Jacked, Robert Sala, Damiquo Ryan's. Awesome. Brandon Staley's tricky. He's doing yoga. That's why the defense is not as good. Got to get in the weight room.

DMPs was old. Dick Lapeau was old. Pete Carroll, super old. Jonathan Gannon, was jacked, slimmed down in Philadelphia, defense not as good. Who else we got? Who else? I love an old defensive coordinator. Jim Schwartz.

Jim Schwartz. I love an old crusty guy. I was watching Jim Schwartz walk around at Brown's practice. Old. That's an old man. And he was a jacked man and is now an old jacked man. He's kind of was going to say. You know what?

I looked at Jim Schwartz ago. This guy looks like the same guy I covered like six years ago. This guy is in good shape. Old and Jack. That's a. lot. Now, old and jacked can be bad. Aaron Glenn, okay? We love him. Great guy. Super exciting. Bad defense. Why? Because the old and the jacks canceled each other out and it became net neutral. He was too powerful. So one or the other. Yes. I like the old crusty guy. Like,

I want my head coach should want to punch my defensive coordinator in the face at least once a month during the season if that guy's going to be any good. Dean P's theory, I think you have a good theory. Yeah. Absolutely. I like it. All yes. So like anybody you sit at home right now, you're like, man, I'm a, you know, a Raiders fan. I wonder if my defense is going to be good. You look at Patrick Graham and you go, probably still too young, but he's a little bit jacked. So we have a shot, right? And this is just, this is all you need to know for your defense.

Todd Bowles, jacked, and becoming old, right? He's in a transition period. I didn't know which one he was. Yeah, I didn't know which way you were going to go with that. I don't know how old he is. You'd go look at Todd Bulls, a Todd Bulls' picture, that man was jacked. And I think now with the Buccaneers, maybe not as jacked, and that's some of the problems with that team.

Again, the theory literally never fails. Anyway, so Vic Fangio's super old, and it's going to be great, coach the defense for the dolphins. So I have the dolphins up there. I have the dolphins 12th. Yeah. Seven for me.

If they get some Ramsey, I think they're going to be a top 10 defense. If he legitimately can't play until the postseason, I think they're going to be in some trouble. KM Smith, their second round rookie at corner being good, to be really huge for this team. At nine, I had the Steelers. I'm skipping eight for right now.

Tan, I put Denver. Denver, to me, is just like a talent thing, right? I think Vance Joseph jacked is just a good defensive coach overall. And then the Broncos defense, we talked about them a little bit on a previous episode. Love it, Joe Everald, love what he did, but you just can't argue with the fact that he had good tools, right? I mean, that's like DJ Jones, Baron Browning, Randy Gregory, and then obviously your Pats are Tan, Justin Simmons, Caden Stearns. Cream Jackson is the guy that I always forget. Like this is just a fundamentally a good group.

There's some issues, you know, I think that linebacker Alex Singleton, Josie Jewel, caused them some problems last season. They drafted Drew Sanders at Arkansas, who I absolutely love and I think you can play for them. And Vance is a pretty big schematic change. They've had some losses on the defensive line. Shelby Harris, Draymont Jones, obviously Vaughn and Bradley Chub over the last couple of years. So I think they're a little bit thin there.

But altogether, I still think this is a top 10 unit by talent. And I think that Vance can get them there. So I have them. I had Broncos 13th, so I don't disagree with you. that they have a chance to be pretty good. The team I have at eight is the team I wanted to end on, because I think they're probably my biggest swing of this list. Okay.

I think the Bengals are going to be a top 10 defense. Now, interesting. We're going to do this in stages. The front seven for the Cincinnati Bengals is almost entirely unchanged and buttressed, right? You still have all of your starters in terms of Trey Hendrickson, Sam Hubbard, you still have DJ Reader, one of the great interior run stuffers.

DJ Readers, like your classic like discount Javan Hargrave. Like you probably, oh, Dalvin Tomlinson's going to save the Browns. DJ readers is like a world better than Dalvin Tomlinson, right? So these like, like such an important player,

BJ Hill. They, they have Joseph Osai who came around very nicely for them last season. And then they go and they draft Miles Murphy. And they say, we're really going to be deep up front. They have extensions for Jermaine Pratt, extension for Logan Wilson.

Kim Davis Gather is still in the building. Marcus Bailey is still in the building. It's the exact same group. Like this front seven is as strong. as it's been. And they have more depth than they've ever had before. They have the extension for Trey Anderson.

I still think this is going to be a really, really, really dynamic front. So you feel great about the front seven. They lost 2,400 snaps in safety. All right? So let's, we're not going to, you know, brush over that freely. They lost over a thousand.

That's Jesse Bates, who went to Atlanta and Von Bell who went to Carolina. They lost over a thousand snaps at Corner coming off of last season. That's Eli Apple. who has since signed with the dolphins after the Jalen Ramsey injury, right? So we're losing about 3,500 snaps out of the secondary. So that's, I am worried.

I don't act like for the single overall ignoring that. There's two things that make me feel good about it, or better about it, I should say. At corner, Cheeto Ouzier comes back from injury, was a great, great, great player for them when he was healthy 2021 and to begin 2022. Mike Hilton, they retain, who Mike Hilton is a really important player to this team in terms of the way that they use him and the value he brings him as a blitzer. He's the feature part of their blitz packages. He's such a good player and run defense, a really nice little player.

So healthy Cheeto, Mike Hilton. And then the third guy is Cam Taylor Britt. Who Camteller Britt, they had a fifth round pick in Nebraska. They had to throw him out there when Cheeto got hurt. And I tell you, that's solid film. He hung out there. Like, he's long and physical and drew some penalties. and, you know, rookie corners tend to do that,

and you've got to bring that down, but he has ball skills. He has enough physical tools to compete. Like, he's, he's a guy who I don't think you feel bad for him out there. And if he loses the job, he's losing it to DJ Turner, who, for me, was like a top 30, top 40 player,

and they drafted in the second round this past year. So Turner, there you go. Safety is a little bit harder. I feel okay about corner. Cheeto, Hilton, like, they're still talent, though. Safety is, we're moving on from Von Bell and Jesse Bates, who they asked to do a lot in this defense. Safety is a really, really important to Lou.

And instead you have Nick Scott, comes in from the Rams, the thing is an average starter, and then Dax Hill. Dax Hill is the big one here. Like, they love Dax. They talk glowingly about Dax. He had to play like 100 snaps last season. They were not good. But they say they love the way he prep.

They love his athleticism. They love his intelligence. And they can go out there and be an impact player from day one. That's the pivot here. That's the hinge. I mean, like, Cam Taylor Britt, corner two might present some problems. Nick Scott's not going to make as much impact play as Von Bell did,

But this is the one where you're putting a Dax Hill out there and asking him to be an impact player at safety. You're asking him to make the plays that Jesse Bates is able to make in terms of being able to play with range and then being to step up and tackle. And Dax is going to spend more time in the box than Bates every day. He's going to spend more time in coverage than Bates ever did. But he's the player who you, like Nick Scott's not going to replace the high impact plays. You need that to be Dax Hill. They draft him in the first round and they really love him. They feel great about him.

They have Jordan Battle as a third round pick this past year as well. This is what they're living on. But I trust Lou. Like if there's a defensive coordinator in the league, Lou and Rumo, by the way, old. I trust Lou to figure this out. I trust Lou to be able to say, he's one of the DeVis coordinator's in league who's earned the most trust in terms of coaching around his guys, putting them in positions to succeed. And so I think with the talent that they have in the front seven and Lou's ability to kind of handle the secondary, this was almost a top, this was like 11th

offense in the lead by Divi away. It was like ninth and success rate. I think they have a chance to be that again. And you know, good, good roll of the dice. They could be a little bit better. So I put the Bengals up there in the top 10. I think the Bengals will be better than I have them ranked and they will be better towards the end of the season than they are in the beginning. I actually think they're going to look a little bit maybe more like that defense two years ago where I think if you looked at it statistically during the regular season, they were 15th to 20th or something. But then in the playoffs, they have the great game plan against Mahomes. They beat the Chiefs on the road and they advanced to the Super Bowl. I don't have too much more to add from what you said.

I just, those safeties were really good. And so just replacing those two really good veteran reliable safeties who knew that scheme inside and out with two new guys. And I like Dex Hill as a lot as a prospect, but, you know, I acknowledge there's going to be uncertainty there with him and Nick Scott. So I bumped them down to kind of the mediocre range there. So I did not think that was going to be a team in your top 10. All right, we've gone long, but I want to mention three teams here and you tell me why you don't have them in your top 10. New Orleans Saints who I had 11th and there was a version of this where I would have had them in the top 10. That's one.

Actually, just two. The Washington commanders. If you're a commander's fan, you're listening to this going, wait a minute, we were ninth last season. We've been good two of the last three seasons. We didn't really like lose anything major on the defensive side of the ball. We still have our great defensive line. Maybe we get Chase Young back here. We didn't really benefit from turnovers last year.

How can you two not have our team in the top 10? How do you respond to that? So the commanders and the saints. Yeah, the commanders I feel legit bad about. They were when I sat, when I got to it, there were 11 teams that I was like, these teams alone being the top 10 and the commanders were the 11th to me. Like I knocked them for Denver because I have like more of an agenda with Denver where I like, oh, this is an important thing to say.

Like the commanders are just right. Like Jack Del Rio is a good defensive coach, old. And they have a great lot of talent, right? And so it's just like they're pretty eddy steady. I'm interested to see what this corner situation looks like. Draft Emmanuel Forbes in the first round, which to me was a weird pick, Benjamin St. Juice,

who I thought was already a good outside corner. Kendall Fuller is obviously going to play your slot for you now, but you're relying a lot on the young guy on the outside. That can be a really shaky thing to do when he's not a top 10 pick. So I'm interested in that. No more Cole Holcomb. So Jamon Davis has now got to be what he looked like he was becoming last season. Like there's little stuff.

But in general, like the commander's a really good defense. I feel poorly that they're not in the top 10. It's tough. There's a lot of teams to fit in there. And then, yeah, for the Saints, for me, it's, um, it's always frustrating because, like, I tend to like the players that the Saints bring in to plug their many gaps. Like, I was a Marcus May guy when he was with the Jets and then he ends up on the Saints. I was a Nathan Shepherd guy with the Jets, Saint.

Kaelin Saunders guy, saint. Like, they go and they get like the third and fourth level rotational dudes that I like on other teams. Like, overall, I'm like, oh, I like all these players. But just from a talent perspective, like this defensive line is just so demolished from where it was when the Dennis Allen defense was really, really good. They continue to need DeMario Davis to just solve problem after problem after problem for them. At some point, that's going to have to stop.

Corner, they're great. It's so obnoxious that they can just draft Paulson Adibbo and then draft Alante Taylor and they're just great next to Marshall Ladamore and it's never a problem. But, like, I don't think their slot situation is great. Bradley Robey in free agency is, I think their best plan there right now. And then I certainly, I think that like having to start Tyron Matthew is not where you want to be right now in your life. Tyrant's just not the player that he was. Like, the Saints, they are, as they perennially are,

they're just grasping for straws, grasping for stopgaps, and trying to hold the ship together. Dennis Allen's a really good coach, but eventually the dam bursts. And like, I think that the dam is bursting. Yeah, I think Dennis Allen might be my biggest disparity between do I think he's a good defensive coordinator and do I think he's a good head coach in the NFL?

Their defense has been one of the most consistent defenses in the entire NFL, five straight, top 10, finishes over the last five seasons, including last year when they were eighth. And by the way, no defense benefited from turnovers less than the Saints last year. And they still had a really good defense. So that's something that could swing in their favor. You nailed it with the defensive line. It could be fine, but they lost one, two, three, four defensive linemen who logged at least

400 snaps for them last season. So you have that. And then you have their best players or older players. I mean, DeMario Davis is awesome. He's 34. Cam Jordan is awesome. He's over 30. Tyrant Matthew, Marcus May, both your starting safeties are over 30.

So these aren't like ascending players who I'm like, ooh, these guys are going to be better than they were last year. So I still think they have a chance to be pretty good. I had him 11th overall, but that was Kai. Nathan Shepherd is going to have seven sacks to them, and I'm going to just hate everything because it's just like, oh, good rotational player, get him out of here, start, put a little Saints dust on him.

He's good now. You guys can't keep getting away with this man. I do like their corners quite quite a bit, as you mentioned. Alante. Yeah, that's a good corner group, but the way they play so aggressive, like they'll, you know, they're going to use those guys as much as they need to. Commanders was really tough for me. I just looked at the, you know, depth chart and I go, do I trust like this depth chart to be a top 10 defense specifically at corner?

Like you mentioned, that was my biggest concern. I thought about how three years ago they were a great defense and then, you know, two years ago, they were not a good defense. And then last year, so I was like, all right, well, they've kind of been

a little bit up and down the last three years. But other than that, I didn't have a great reason for it. And I would have looked at this depth chart last year going into the season and gone, no, it's not a great corner group.

And they still were a very good defense. So I've got them coming down a little bit, but if you're a commander's fan saying, you didn't convince me, they absolutely should be top 10. I think that's valid. I just went through and I'm like, I like these other teams more than them.

And so I'm putting them above the commanders. So I think we hit on all the big teams we needed to. I didn't have another one in the year that I was like, ooh, I really thought about putting them in the top 10. We went a little long. We gave you surprises. We yelled at each other. Now, we're going to have to put, so my biggest disagreement for you was the Eagles in the top five.

Your biggest disagreement for me was the Browns in the top five. So I feel like there's some Browns Eagles hoagy type bet in our future before the season. Or you, well, we already have a bet where you might wear dead. Benham, what don't I like to wear? I feel like I'm pretty versatile. I'll throw in a jogger or a suit, a jean pan. I don't have anything that I'm totally against. Whatever steak you would like to pick, because you're currently backing the Cleveland

Browns defense, and I'm backing the Super Bowl NFC champion Eagles defense. I'm fine with our current circumstance here. Yeah. And I'm living 10 miles away from where that Eagles defense practices. So I don't know that this was a smart move by me, but hey, hey, what the heart wants, what the heart wants. All right. That was fun.

Thank you to Ben. Solac. Thank you to Eduardo Ocampo for filling in as our producer today. Additional production supervision by Connor and Evans and Arjuna Ramgapal. Appreciate everyone listening. We will be back next week with another episode of Extra Point Taken. Until then, have a great weekend and we will talk to you soon. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Vandul is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino LLC gambling problem. 1-800 gambler or visit fandul.com slash RG in Colorado, Iowa, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Tennessee, and Virginia. Call 1-800-nextap or text next step to 53342 in Arizona, 1-888-78-9-777.

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