The Ringer NFL Show - Preseason Week 1 QB Review, Best NFL Teams of the Quarter Century, and More

Episode Date: August 13, 2025

Steven and Diante return to recap their favorite moments from the first week of the NFL preseason, with a special focus on the young quarterbacks looking to make some noise, including: Shedeur SandersCam WardJaxson DartJ.J. McCarthyBo NixBryce YoungAnthony Richardson They end the pod by taking a look at The Ringer’s Best NFL Teams of the Quarter Century Bracket and debating which squad will make it to the top of the mountain. Click here to check out the bracket at theringer.com and cast your vote for the best NFL team of the 21st century so far! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.rg-help.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Steven Ruiz and Diante LeeProducer: Chris SuttonSocial: Kiera GivensProduction Supervision: Conor Nevins and Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is presented by American Eagle. Whether you're hanging out at home or headed out for a training session, American Eagle has you covered with a ton of new stuff. We're talking super comfy, heavyweight hoodies and joggers that look and feel great, sweat wicking to active shorts that are good to go anywhere, anytime. New move-free jeans made from a crazy comfy, real-looking denim, and their biggest underwear collection of the year with stripes, solid, and print styles to fill your drawer. You can check it all out at A.e.com or just visit the store. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Ringer NFL show.

I am Stephen Ruiz. I'm joined by Deonté Lee. And Deonté, we actually have real-life football games to talk about. It's only preseason. I know we joked last week about not like pouring into the film and watching this, but I got a confession to make. I couldn't resist. I didn't really watch any action live.

But once that film dropped on NFL Pro, I was all over it. I mean, it is real life in the sense that the people on the field do have heartbeats. They are real human beings. playing football, doing very football-esque maneuvers and strategies. I don't know if it necessarily rises to the level of the football that will be shouting at each other about in the regular season. But it was there. I'm just like you.

I started watching Colts Ravens on Thursday. And at first I was like, what the fuck am I doing, man? This is Colts Ravens preseason ball. And then they actually walk out on the field. And I'm like, oh, shit, dude, I'm back in. I'm locked in on everything that's happening on the field. So I'm just as much as sicko as our fans. I think you were the one that said, like, every Anthony Richardson throw and dropback

is going to be the most important one, like the last one. And you were totally right. I feel like that sack that he took that ultimately knocked him out of the game and dislocated his pinky, launched like a thousand breakdown videos from every analyst across the NFL landscape. It was amazing to be back. I just love living and dying with every dropback. And that's basically what we're going to do today. Like a lot of young quarterbacks had notable performance.

performances over the weekend. And we're going to just checking on those guys. I'm going to get your thoughts on what you saw out of those guys, including JJ McCarthy played. We got Cam Ward, the first overall picture. Or Sanders played. I believe you're writing about that. We got a lot to dig into. And then later on in the show, we have a cool feature going on on the ringer.com. We're doing a bracket of the best teams of the last quarter century. We have a 32 team bracket. I know we kind of put together our ballots and that's how they formed the bracket. We're going to run through that. We're going to make our picks. You can vote on that on the ringer.com.

There's some tough matchups in there, man. I don't think that everybody got a fair draw in this bracket. Some of that was kind of rough. No, some of those were like made for TV matchups. The 2015 Panthers and the 2024 Eagles, like, that one hurt me. Because I can't even make the argument for that one. But we're going to get to that later. Specifically despite me as a Camden fan.

Yes, but we're going to get to that later on in the show. But first, we're going to talk about the rookie quarterback that everybody's talking about. No, I'm not talking about the first overall pick. Of course not. We're not talking about him at all. We're not even talking about the second quarterback off the board. Or the third for that matter. We're talking about Shador Sanders, who played the Panthers, started the game.

I think you have nine drives in this game and led the Browns to 23 points, fairly successful in that regard. He threw the ball 23 times, completed 14 passes. Only average 6 point yards per attempt. I think it was like 5.7 per dropback if you include sacks, 138 yards. There are a lot of people on the timeline doing victory laps after the two touchdown, zero interception performance, because that's all we care about touchdown to interception. show. I'm interested in your take on the performance as a whole.

What did you see that you like? What did you see that you didn't like? Let's start with the positives, if you have any, from Shador's first start. Well, brother, it wasn't just people on the timeline. Nike decided that it was time to put together an ad post about how it was just a matter-in-time for a guy.

Did they haven't made before the start? Do you think they had to be able to... They had to have been ready to enact this, the moment that he completed a pass. And then the fact that he threw two touchnails just made it that much sweeter. But I'm with you. I want to start with the positives.

I think that when you look at the second touchdown throw, that's really where I want to start. That to me is the exact encapsulation of not just what should do or can do with this skill set, but the best manifestation of what it can be like if he's going to be a functional starting-esque type of quarterback in the league. So for the got people who don't remember, this was close to the end zone. They're in inside the 10, inside the 15. he gets a blitz, moves to his right, resets his feet,

throws the ball to an end breaker for a touchdown. Right? Like that to me, first of all, that is like quintessential quarterback play, the way that we talk about it on the podcast, the way that former quarterbacks

talk about it on their various platforms, the ability to move your feet, you definitely saw him think about rolling out, and he stopped himself, reset his feet, and knew he had a route he could deliver the ball to and the fact that he was able to do that. I walked away from that feeling

really good about who he was as a quarterback. Now, with that said, there was, on the very next drive, he had these like two plays and maybe like five or six play sequences where he threw a dig really, really well, worked through the progression, knew where the ball was. It's like coming out of their own end zone. And you kind of see he felt he was feeling himself a little bit after that dig. And I think they came back to a similar concept on the other side of the field. A few plays later, laid on it, trying to wait until it got into the perfect window. Corner almost undercuts it and picks it off. And like in that, that's kind of like the duality of what he is as a quarterback.

And I was thinking a lot of Jimmy Garapolo, honestly, when I was watching him play. And I was thinking a lot about his skill set and just what it took in terms of manicuring an offense and allowing him to develop himself and find confidence in the pocket. And I think that that would be, I don't want to necessarily say a lofty or an aspirational projection for Shadur. But that kind of player is the kind of player that Shadur can be. is he going to have the greatest arm talent? No. Does he have the greatest pocket movement? No, but you can definitely coach a guy that works the way that he does to be on time, work within the progression, and get the ball out the way that you're supposed to.

So I would say in terms of positives, that was what I walked away from, is he can work in the middle of the field. I think that he understands how important it is to do so at the NFL level. And it seems like he is prioritizing doing that to make an impression, not just on his coaches, but to make sure that his players know that he's that level of quarterback that he can be trusted to do those kinds of things. And I feel like you have used the term he's a hyper-trained quarterback, and I think you saw that on full display, which you're kind of getting at here.

Like, he kept his eyes up when he was moving in the pocket. He made the right throws. I think he was a little late on a couple throws because, like the ball patting thing that, I think it became a big deal. I forget, which was a Darius slay. It was some quarterback had called it out in the pre-job process. And I hadn't really paid it much mind, but like watching it, it was apparent. Like even his first completion, I think, it was a little like spot route, a little stop

route. And you can see that he decides to throw it on time, but he does a little ball pat. And the ball is kind of late because of that. And you saw that throughout this, throughout this performance. I did like those in-breakers, especially the one you mentioned, the one coming out. I did think the ball kind of died on him a little bit on the touchdown throw, which is speaks to the armed talent, which I think is fine. It's good enough if he has the right infrastructure. I think Jimmy G's a good comp in that regard. But to me, he's like one of the those quarterbacks where you worry about the margin for error? Like, what is his margin for error with his physical talent as a mover, his physical talent as a

thrower? And I thought we saw, I think he needs to be a very, very, very, very accurate quarterback, like 95th percentile style accuracy. And I think in this game, that was the big red flag for me was the lack of precision. I don't think he missed any, like, egregious throws. I think there was the one when he got outside the pocket and he had like a fullback wide open and he kind of sailed it on him. It might have been the sight end.

But I'm talking to. about like the quick in-breakers, the slant routes, the in-routes, and there are a lot of rip cage getting exposed by those high throws. And if this was another team with like maybe more instinctive defensive backs, I think some guys might have been sent to the blue tent with some of those throws. And I don't think he can afford to not have near perfect accuracy. And I haven't seen it from him so far. I'm with you on that. I think precision is the exact word I was thinking about as you were speaking to. And it's not just precision in terms of ball placement. I think that outside of a couple of the high throws that you mentioned, for the most part,

and this is him at Colorado and Jackson State as well. He always has a relatively well-placed ball, right? Like when he knows where he wants to go with it, he can usually give it to his receivers the way that they like it. The issue is, is he precise pre-snap in the way that he needs to be to get the most out of his accuracy because he's not going to have the Josh Allen arm where I can technically be a beat late or a beat off with my footwork based on a progress. based on the progression,

but I can always just torque this ball into a window if I need to. That's not him, right? And I think that you see that show up on the handful of plays, not handful, but the couple of plays where he ends up wheeling out of the pocket and trying to find something that isn't there, right? Like the second instance of it, the fourth down is kind of its own thing, and we can talk about that a little bit because some of that is pre-snap stuff. But to me, like the second time you did it, they were running a curl flat passing concept.

This is something that's made to beat single high, right? So your job as a quarterback is I have to diagnose whether or not I'm getting the coverage that this is designed to beat. And if I'm not, it's an immediate checkdown, right? Like, I've got to get the ball out of my hands. This is not a play that is long developing. My wide receivers are not even going to be in position to transition into a scramble drill. This is very kind of quick game, back foot hits the ground, ball is out type of thing. He's looking at a curl route that's not open.

And you can see him kind of have that panic of he was not prepared for him not to get the look that he thought that this route concept was going to work against. And now he's trying to extend into nothing. So you get him wheeling out to one sideline. Then he flies all the way out to the opposite sideline. And that was like Mansell-esque in a way that cost Johnny Mansell a lot of opportunities to develop himself as a passer. And you just don't get away with that in the league.

Lamar Jackson is a 99.99-99th percentile athlete. You don't even see him bailing out of the back door of the pocket, right? Like he's wised up to that. Josh Allen is wised up to that. Patrick Mahomes can still have problems with that. at times, but he's been able to get away with it when he does it because he has arguably the greatest arm control we've ever seen at the position. I think that for Chador is going to be paramount and it's going to be difficult for him to do because he's fourth on the depth chart,

which means he's not always going to get the highest quality reps throughout training camp in the preseason. He's got to be extremely precise with understanding exactly what defenses can do to and having a list of contingencies he can get to based off of what he sees, right? And that takes time, that takes repetition. I will say just based off the baseline thresholds, you see a functional quarterback, but for us to get the version of Shredor Sanders at, I think his fans want to see to get him an opportunity to start in the NFL, some of those small things like that fourth and one that turned into a disaster play and turnover on downs, like that curl flat concept that I mentioned, like him being late on that dig route like we talked about earlier, those are

the kinds of things that are going to make me concerned for him and his future. And I don't wanting him to have the bad Jimmy Garoppolo experience, where Jimmy G is now so concerned with pressure and what pressure is going to do to him as a guy who can't work the ball deep down the field with a lot of armed talent. Then now he's just flinging the ball when he doesn't feel good about something and putting the ball in harm's way. That was an early Kirk Cousins problem too. It just took a while to kind of massage that out.

I think that as he spends more time in the league, it should get better. But this is just going to be the duality of him, is that when it's all teed up, it's going to look fine. And if it's not there, I think he has a lot of bad habits that manifest themselves in the worst kind of ways if he doesn't see it and doesn't anticipate where he needs to go next. Yeah, I think he cleared the bar with the performance. I just don't think it warranted a Nike ad and everything that we heard about. And like just the books of to relitigate where he was drafted. Like it's okay. No, no, none of that. It's too early for that. It was six yards per attempt. And just to add to pour some cold water on like the traditional stat line, he would, and I,

I know I'm a sicko for doing this, but I looked up the EPA numbers for a preseason game on true media. He was minus 0.13 EPA with a 33% success rate. I mean, we're doing Nike ads for that. Yeah, and that's a good point. Seven points came off the short field, 23 points on nine drives. So I think there was definitely some good. I just don't think it warranted the reaction that we got. Let's talk about the first quarterback taken in the draft, shall we?

Like, I feel like we said this last week. I know there's been some pushback to this, but I, I feel like he, Cam Ward, I'm talking about, is under disgust. He went five for eight, 67 yards, 8.4 yards per attempt. Imagine if Shador would have done that. They might have elected a statue for him, put a billboard up in Times Square. Zero touchdown, zero interception. He had two drives, and one of them was a touchdown.

I believe the other one was a three and out. I guess I'll start because you started with Shador, and I'm just like, I think I'm the biggest Cam Ward fan on this show. I will say that I thought that. there were times when he bailed out of the pocket, or drifted in the pocket unnecessarily. I think he got away with a terrible, terrible decision. We were joking before

the show. He almost threw a pick. It was a cover two whole shot. The cornerback didn't really fall off the route and he kind of carried it down the field and almost picked it off. And we were joking that if you like the quarterback, you're like, oh, that's a bold decision. You like the rookie test in his limits in the preseason. If you don't like the

quarterback, you call him a bozo. I'm leaning towards the ambitious side. I think it was a good way of testing his limits. He didn't get away with it. But after that, I did feel like he had some really good moments where he was moving from his first progression to his second progression. He was delivering the ball in time. I think accuracy was a little bit of issue where he made some wide receivers kind of die for the ball. But outside of that, I think he checked all the boxes. The one thing we didn't really see was the out of structure play and the armed talent on full display. But there's going to be plenty of time

for that throughout the season. What did you think of what you saw out of the first overall pick? I think in terms of the quality of throws, he probably is right up there with all the young quarterbacks that we watched this weekend in the preseason. I did notice, like, he still does not have calm feet in the pocket. No, that was something at Miami. That was certainly something that existed at Washington State. And I think that that's just throughout his career is something he's really going to have to hone in on, is having calm, quieter feet because he does get very bouncy, bouncy,

pat the ball. You talked about Shadurra Sanders, pat in the ball. Some quarterbacks kind of built up this natural, almost like, automatic rhythm to themselves. Is there waiting on something to get open? you can definitely see that with Cam Ward and you don't want to put yourself in positions where defenders can take advantage of that.

But he threw the ball outside the numbers well. I will say maybe the best thing that I saw from him is that this is a quarterback that clearly understands who his best receiver is. Because on most of his passing attempts, he was trying to find Calvin Ridley. Where are you? Calvin really in the middle of the field,

Calvin really on the sideline. As long as you're on the field, you're my first look. So I think if you're a Titans fan, you should feel good about that. If you're a fantasy football guy and you know you're going to be carrying three receivers in your league, You might want to think about Calvin really because he should be a high volume receiver, given what we saw in the preseason.

And I think that for me, the issues came up in terms of, okay, I'm leaving the pocket or my feet aren't set or as I'm working through a progression, it might be time to go extend, okay, wait, something just snapped open. I want to get the ball out now, but I'm not in the right body posture. I'm not properly prepared to deliver the ball accurately. That's something that for him, again, he's going to have to iron that out. But in terms of taking the chances against different coverages, work in the middle, of the field, flashing some arm

talent, a little bit of mobility. I think that Cam Ward showed that he's exactly what everybody who was a Titans fan and people who were paying attention to Cam Ward over the last few months. That's exactly the kind of quarterback I think you can expect. It does not seem like he's a guy who scares or spooks very easily, and that's going to

bode well, I think, in an offense that needs a quarterback to be that way for them to thrive in their passing game. Yeah, I thought he did a good job of finding completions later in the down. Like, it wasn't just one read, like first read stuff. Even but I do think the third and nine conversion to Ridley over the middle of the field. I think that's a perfect encapsulation of what you're talking about.

Like, he obviously, he finds that receiver. He completes the pass. I thought he did a good job of kind of holding the linebacker with his eyes before, you know, snapping and throwing the ball. But his feet were a little, they weren't quiet at all on that one. He kind of like buckled when he made the throw. He still was able to complete it, but I think your margin for error in the NFL, especially in regular season games when the windows close a little tighter.

You can't be throwing like that. You've got to be throwing with a more. sound base. And I don't think we always saw that with his dropbacks in this game against the bucks. But overall, I think it was a fine debut, 8.4 yards per attempt again. That's an efficient outing. He moved the football on the second drive.

He led him to points, convert it on third down. That's what you want to see. I have question marks about his ceiling for this season, just because I have question marks about Brian Calle and I have questions about the receivers surrounding him. Even Calvin Ridley, I don't think, is the most reliable route runner at times.

But I'm excited to watch play. And I think he showed, at least in this preseason game, that he's going to be able to, I think he's going to be all right this season. That's how I would put it. Yeah, I'll let you on that. All right, let's move on to another rookie. Let's move on to the second quarterback off the board in the draft. Let's go to Jackson Dart, who, I mean, this was a pretty good stat line from him. I thought he had some really good moments in this, too. Like, I know, I think both of us are a little bit lower on him than where he went. I think a lot of people are lower on him compared to where he went in the draft, but he goes 12 for 19 against the bills, 154 yards. It's 8.1 yards per attempt, one touchdown,

and most importantly, zero interception, zero sacks. And in four drives, he led them to 13 points. I, to be honest, I didn't really dive too much into Jackson Darts tape before the draft. I don't have a strong take. I just see a quarterback from that Wayne Kiffin system, and I'm skeptical. I have to admit it, I don't think he had, like, the greatest arm. And you're going to have to see him process on the NFL level. But I thought in this game, he did. One, he showed that he has good timing on the deep ball with the one deep ball throw.

He had the little Jordan Humphrey for the touchdown. And he also took a hit. Like, he stood in there and took a hit to deliver that pass. And then you saw him kind of evade pressure, keep his eyes up. He made one throw on the run to either get like a convert on a first down or get close to convert into first down. He also had a scramble after escaping pressure. So I'm not ready to join Brian Dayball

with the Josh Allen. but I think it was a good start for him and he's not dead on arrival at the very least. Definitely not DLA. Definitely not DLA. I will say that like if you've ever seen like these quarterback installs or quarterback manuals, right, they usually have this page of like these are the fundamental things that you have to be able to do on the field to be a successful quarterback. A lot of it is like do no harm to the offense, right?

Like protect the ball. If you see the alert, just throw the alert, you know, play very basic. You know, come within the lines. year, right? Exactly. And I would say that, like, Jackson Dart did a lot of that against the bills. Now, there are some throws up the sideline. You do have the touchdown. You had a couple opportunities where it could have been interceptions. I think that that's going to be him. I will say, contextually, that's not exactly the same as I don't know what I'm looking at. So I throw the ball in harm's way. A lot of it was, okay, Buffalo's playing single high or they're playing press man

and we're running like a stick concept, meaning outside receivers are running fades, the playbook says, I can take this throw if I want this throw. So I'm going to take that throw from that perspective. I think at least Jackson Dart knows, like, hey, if I color within the lines and stay within the strict parameters

of Brian Daywell's offense, I probably am not going to go broke, taking a profit that way. And I think that if he continues to do that, he'll be okay. I was not blown away, though, I will say. Scramble was okay. He had like one throw in the middle of the field,

late in the progression that I did kind of mark off as a plus. But for the most part, this is just like very basic 101 quarterback stuff, like you said, Bo Nix-esque. And I do think that it's going to be easy for people to see the way he throws and assume that he has a lot of armed talent. You don't necessarily see a lot of velocity out of it. No, right? Not in the way that's impressive.

I think it's functional velocity. I would say he probably has a better arm raw talent-wise than Shador, who we talked about earlier, but it's not much. Not much. And I think that he does give some things away in terms of accuracy, right? Like the ball placement is not always going to be perfect. And that's going to give opponents an opportunity. And I would say of the quarterbacks we've talked about so far, he's definitely one that if he sat for the full year in New York just decided to roll with Russell Wilson, because that gives him the best opportunity to win. I think that actually might serve him best.

Because I do think that he's the kind of quarterback that can get in his head if he turns a ball over or takes a bunch of sacks or gets beat down upon in the pocket by pass rushers. So I think that what we saw of them was good. And if he continues to build on it, obviously I'll continue to come to the microphone and give him his credit, but not blown away at all by what I saw. And hopefully if he can just keep up the basics, and that'll give them a nice foundation to build upon.

No, no, it wasn't the type of performance that's going to make you readdress your priors or anything like that. Like, I thought it was an easy game plan for him. Of course, it is its preseason. and I think there are still question marks about his ceiling as a thrower of the football. And I think you hit the head on the nail. Like he's some guy,

I think he's a guy that will eventually be able to color in between the lines. But I don't think he's at that point yet. And when you combine that with question marks about his physical ceiling, it's hard to get excited about watching him in year one. I do think he's a guy that can benefit from sitting on the bench,

seeing other pros do it, getting another year in the playbook. But I think the problem with that is Brian Dayball might not be around next year. Probably won't be around next year if we're being around by the end of the year. And we know how much that brain trust in New York really fell in love with Jackson Dart compared to the rest of the league. So it's a tenuous position to be in for a young quarterback.

But it was a decent starting. I think people around the league that maybe weren't paying attention, like deep attention to what was actually going on in that game, were very blown away. I'm not ready to start the conversation about whether he should start or not. I still think Russell is ahead of him. I would put James Winston ahead of him, for that matter. but decent start for him. Do you want to talk about Tyler Shuck? I didn't really watch the game.

They didn't put the film up on NFL Pro yet. I wasn't watching that game live. I don't know. I saw the pick. I saw the deep throw, which seemed like an open throw. We know the guy can throw deep, but it wasn't a performance

that would move me very much from what I saw. Not moved at all. The pick is like very emblematic if you were a Tyler Shuck skeptic of why you're skeptical of them. Because it is like a lot of arm talent. I would say like he spins the ball, short of Cam Ward, the best of all the guys we've discussed so far, right?

Like he has a very natural arm talent. I would hope so, I guess, for his age and how many hours he's probably put in to getting his mechanics together. You can definitely see some of the arm talent, some of the arm strength when it comes to just ripping the ball. I don't know if the processing is all the way there. Like you said, if you throw a lot of that is like guy wide open, you put the ball where it's supposed to be based on the design.

But that out route, throwing the ball outside the numbers, the timing was all, the placement was bad. And that's exactly what happens in the league when you do those types of things as a young quarterback. And I would say the rest of what I saw was a lot of underneath throws, man. It's a lot of five-yard end routes. It's a lot of hitches. It's a lot of slants, which is cool, but there's nothing to evaluate here, really, if I'm being honest, outside of the interception. And I think that that's actually probably going to be a net positive for him learning what you can't do.

This isn't college where you can just see off-corner into the boundary. we've got a speed out there. I just throw the speed out, and I'm looking at the speed out the whole way, right? I think that that's a learning experience, but for the most part, this didn't move me. And if I'm being honest,

if I were killing Moore, what is really the difference between playing him and year one and playing Smitter-Radler and giving him a shot to... About three years of age, not in... Not in Chuss's over either.

Exactly. I can't even do that. That's the good news. He's very young and has plenty of time to learn. The guy's 26 years old. They're similarly talented in terms of how they throw.

And I would say the Spencer Rattlers are more ambitious faster than Chuck is. So I'm kind of leaning on your direction. I think I'd give him the shot. You're joining? You're joining the Rattler, the Ratman boss. It's filling up. It's not filling up.

There's still plenty of seats left available. So, yeah, so we hit on all of the rookie quarterbacks of note. Let's take a break and then come back and then talk about some second and third year quarterbacks. On Tuesday, August 26, it's Fan Duel Futures Day, a new holiday for football fans. It's 24 hours of deals on all your football season predictions. So take a flyer on the MVP race.

Me personally, I'm going to take Lamar Jackson for that one. Crown your champion in August. I'm going to take the bills to hoist the Lombardi in February. Or parlay your division winner Dark Horses. Mark your calendars. This is your day for your hunches, your hot takes, your calls, and your odds. Visit the Fandul app today and start planning your futures bets now because Futures Day is one day and one day only.

FanDuel, play your game. Must be 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus and present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800-G-Hallorpe, or visit RG-8-8-8-8-8-8-9-7-7-77 or visit ccbg.org slash chat in Connecticut. All right, welcome back. We just talked about the rookies. Let's talk about a guy that might as well be a rookie. J.J. McCarthy obviously went down with an injury last year, lost his rookie season. he made his 20-25 debut.

Was it on Saturday? I think he was on Saturday or Sunday against the Texans. He goes four for seven for 30 yards. That's 4.3 yards per attempt. That drive did end with three points, and it did go 13 play. So we only got him for one drive, but we got plenty to talk about out of that one drive. I guess I'll start. I think we've been harping on the difference.

He has a strong arm. We've been saying this. He has a strong arm, but we don't know about his armed talent and his ability to layer the ball over the second level defenders. And I think we saw that actually play out in this game. It was on a third and four, I believe. He had an endbreaker. Lucky Johnson was the one running the route. It was open. It was there. There was a linebacker in the way. I thought JJ McCarthy did a good job of using his eyes to kind move that linebacker and wrong foot him, get him to go in one direction opposite of the route. But then he just fired in a fastball that was about five feet too high over Johnson's head. Incomplete, it goes to

fourth down. Now he does scramble for a first down after that next play, which is a good sign, because I he's going to have to be a scrambler to really get the most out of him this year. But there were several bouts of inaccuracy. I don't know how much you saw this, but what did you see out of J.J.M. McCarthy's 2025 debut. I think I saw a guy that I think people maybe just had improperly pegged coming into the league, right? I think that people looked at him at Michigan and saw some of the efficiency in terms of completions and not turning the ball over and assume that there's a level of polish to his game. But when I watch him in an NFL context, it actually comes across a lot more raw,

a lot more in need of a very specific kind of molding, because I don't think he really understands how to layer the ball. And that was the story at Michigan, right? Like, you would turn on the Michigan tape in every ball, straight line, 95 miles an hour down the middle of the plate, right? And if he's off platform, now that starts to spray a whole lot more. And I think that we saw that in the preseason game. Even the comeback throw to Jordan Addison, like, impressive throw.

He put some serious RPMs on that ball. But Jordan Addison had to reach way back to be able to catch that and try to land in bounds, right? Like it doesn't have to be that way. Some of the mistakes he's going to make will probably be because he's trying to put everything on the ball at all times in a way that's not necessary. So I do think that Kevin O'Connell kind of have to reel that back in. But it definitely made me think of Sam Darnold, especially what he was early in his career. And hey, maybe if you have a Sam Darnold-esque talent that's young enough that is not the, been jaded and scarred by his poor experiences.

Maybe when he's running with the first team and they have a legitimate NFL type of game plan in, that he is able to make those throws in the middle of the field. And we know that the Vikings offense is going to be so heavily manicured to designing those throws that McCarthy can make that for the most part, his play-by-play stuff will be fine. I will just say, though, some of the biggest issues for me is what happens when the pocket is moved, right? When he's off his platform, when his timing is.

is disrupted by a beat or two. That's really where the accuracy issues come up. That's really where the decision making is going to be stressed and strained the most for a guy like him who comes from Jim Harbaugh, where the protection is always perfect, and we're really not asking you to stress or strain yourself as a quarterback to find completions. That's going to be a layer of his game that he has not really had to work upon

at any time in his college career or last year because he was injured. So this is going to be a lot of learning on the fly. And I think that what Justin Jefferson said at the start of training camp was like, you can't put any veteran expectations on a guy like this. This is not just a rookie. This is a guy who really has not been a dyed in the wool, true dropback quarterback yet. And it's going to take some time, I think, for him to figure out what that means for him in an NFL context. Yeah, I think last year, what we saw out of Minnesota's offense,

when we saw it of Sam Darnold has generated a lot of optimism about the offense and what it could be. You plug in a guy like Sam Darnold, he plays like that. If you imagine plugging in a talented first round pick, our first round pick into this offense, then you're expecting something similar to what you got out of last year. But that might be to his detriment. Because like you said, this is going to be a learning experience. I don't think he's quite the thrower Sam Darnold is,

like in terms of touch throws and layering balls and doing all that and throwing outside the numbers. I also think you're going to have to pair it on the offense because he's a rookie essentially. He's a second year player. Sam Darnold has had experience in similar systems. He's been around the league. He's been in different systems. Like, you're not going to be able to run as much stuff. I think if there are accuracy problems, if the decision making his inconsistent, he's going to have to add another layer to the offense.

And I think it's going to have to be with his legs. And then you get into the frame concern, like the size concern. And if he can take those hits, if he is a scramble. He does look small back there. That's what has me concerned. I think it's going to at least take another year for us to give. him to a place where he can replicate what we saw out of Minnesota's offense last year.

It wasn't like an overly concerning performance outside of the layering of the one pass. It's a small sample size. But it does make me feel like I want to pump the brakes a little bit on whatever optimism I have about the Vikings. Even though I still love that

defense. I love the infrastructure around him. I love Kevin O'Connell. I think Justin Jefferson is the best receiver in NFL, which is going to make his job easier. But we saw things fall apart at the end of last year. I'm not sure if J.J. McCarthy has enough in them yet to kind of breach that gap and make up for the change of quarterback and the lack of experience they have a quarterback now. Yeah, I mean, he's got to go on the Jared Gough Plan in 2017-2018, man. This is very paired

down. Probably do a lot of tempo stuff. Obviously, they've added a lot to their trenches to be able to get back. So I think some of the more tried and true run concepts that you know this offense for, and that's what's going to have to be the driving force. The only issue is that he doesn't have Todd Gurley behind him to be the engine of this thing. So there will be games where he can't escape what's going to be asked of him as a quarterback. But I do think that if Minnesota's as smart as I think they are, if this staff is as as I believe them to be, I think they know that this is going to be a training wheel season

just to make sure that they're not leaving him out there to drown on his own. Yeah, let's move on to another quarterback. A quarterback we've mentioned already, both nicks, who I think probably surprised both of us. I think we had lower expectations for Nicks going to. to last season. I thought he showed off more scrambling ability than I anticipated. I thought he showed off a little more arm strength than I anticipated. But I think he is a quarterback that still has plenty to prove, especially with those expectations in Denver.

They're like the sleeper team, the hipster team. If Shield was here, that's what he would call them. The defense is made for a championship run. Sean Payton, we know, has won a Super Bowl before. He can set quarterbacks up for success. They have great offensive line. They have a potentially very good wide receiver core. If some young guys take a step up, But I will say this. I was expecting a little more out of Bo Nix. I know it's preseason. He only had 11 attempts.

It was against a 49ers defense. I don't know if you saw any of this game, but Robert Sala was like pitching gaps in preseason. Some of the buses. I was like, hey, man, this is like week five, weeks this material. I don't know if we need to be bringing this out in the preseason opener. Yeah, I was like, if I was Bo Nix,

I'd be like, what the hell is this? Why are you doing this? What are you trying to prove? Do you have a point to prove? Come on, man. Like even on the scramble where he kind of threw the ball out, took the safety. He had like seven guys.

There was a lot of moving parts up front, man. I would have been annoyed. I would have been annoyed. But even outside of that, if you give him a break for that, just a lot of inaccurate throws. Like he alerted some two go balls. The first one was a little bit outside of

Cortland Sutton's frame. The second one was just a terrible decision. Like the quarterback or the quarterback had the route cap. He left it too far inside. He hung it up in the air. Really could have been picked. He had a deep crosser to Troy Franklin that he kind of under throw.

that was like a great play by Chase Lucas, the cornerback. Yeah, it was, it looked like Bo Nicks from last year. It looked like the guy that kind of struggles with the deep accuracy, the guy who kind of panics in the pocket when it starts to break down and makes checkdown throws on the run instead of like setting his feet and doing it. He did that on the third down. Even the fourth down conversion, which is probably his best play of the game, Troy Franklin again, he has to like rise above his head and catch the ball.

It's a high throw. and it should be an easy throw for a second year quarterback. So I come out of that game, kind of concerned that, like we have said, Bo Nix needs to take a step forward for this offense and this team as a whole to really take a step forward and become a playoff contender. He went six of 11 for 31 yards, 2.8 yards per attempt. It was against the 49ers backups and three drives. He had three points.

It wasn't the most convincing performance. And again, it really reminded me of Bo Nix from last year. 1,000 percent. I'm always here for the crossboard analogy. right, like you hear in the NBA, they talk about Summer League, like you'll rarely, you'll rarely make yourself a star in the Summer League, but you can make yourself look like you don't belong, right? And the guys who look like they don't belong are the ones you have to be most concerned about. For a second year quarterback who got as many reps as Bo Nix got

as a dropback passer last year, because Denver could not run the ball at all, I would expect him to be able to spare a lot better against the defense, even if they're blitzing, because you are literally playing across from the blitzing defensive coordinator, day in practice. So I would expect him to have a little bit better preparation for some of the looks that he got from San Francisco in the preseason. The accuracy issues were just as much an orange flag, I would say, for me as it was for you. I think that the mistreads at times, the pocket mismanagement at times, that's all stuff that like you can explain away as a rookie, especially for a guy like him who I think is still going through this evolution process and what kind

a quarterback he wants to be based on what he was at Auburn when he started his college career, then transferring to Oregon and now in Denver. I think he's still working his way through that. But even with all that said, man, like you've got a lot of reps. You should know what you can and can't do when you're working with one of the preeminent quarterback gurus that we've had in the modern iteration of the league. It was just not a good showing at all. Again, it was 11 dropbacks. So I don't want to read too far into it. He could look great. We've seen guys look great in preseason and then be terrible in the regular season. We've seen that the opposite of that happened.

But it did look a lot like last year, which I would be concerned about how was the Broncos fans, because the bar has been raised this year. There are expectations for this team. This team could win. If they get top 15 quarterback play, it's a team that can win a couple playoffs games in mind. That's a Super Bowl level if he's at that spot.

Yeah. So if you're a Broncos fan, I feel like your expectations should be a lot higher. It should be in line with what we had going into this game, and you just didn't meet them. But there's another game next week. There's 17 regular season game. He has plenty of time to prove us wrong.

And just to prove that we are not guys that are stuck to our first take. Let's talk about Bryce Young. Because I thought Bryce Young was really impressive. This guy that I've been hard on as a Panthers fan, didn't really want to draft him with the first overall pick. Thought he was undersized. Thought he didn't really have top-level armed talent. I think he proved a lot of people wrong down the stretch of last year. And I thought this game against the Browns, where he goes four for six for 58 yards,

that's 9.7 yards per attempt, a touchdown. He takes one sack, but it was only for one yard. and he leads the Panthers to seven points on two drives. I thought he looked more comfortable, and I thought it was a continuation of where he picked off last year. What did you think of it? Same thing. I think that not only for him,

I think that for Dave Canales as just like a play designer, it definitely feels like he has a better grasp on what he wants Bryce Young to be within this offense. I think having Teterraulta McMillan also goes a long way for that, right? Like I think his first big completion was that one-on-one ball out to McMillan, in one-on-one coverage. It's like right there, you instantly see why Bryce Young was so effective at the college level coming into the league.

He can identify where he needs to go with the ball early and do so accurately. And now that he's got a guy like that, just having that as a pressure release valve goes a long way. And then just looking at him in the pocket specifically, which was really where all of his issues were. Pressure would come, it would break down. Or he would try to bail out the pocket. And obviously, he's just not that level of athlete mobility-wise to be able to escape NFL all pass rushers.

And he definitely doesn't always have the size to be able to reset, find a convenient window to deliver the ball accurately from either. I think that what we saw in the preseason, while it was relatively limited, is a continuation of what we got down the last five or six weeks of the regular season where it started to look like he was turning a corner. And I think that if he can continue that, and I think bring some of that third downplay that we saw at the end of last year and transfer that over to his early downplay. by getting the ball out early on time accurately,

and he has these one-on-one winners and guys that they can design things up for and McMillan and Xavier Leggett, if Leggett continues to grow as a player, then I'll feel pretty good about it. I don't think that they're a playoff team. I'm not saying he's going to be a top 12th quarterback in the league, but if he can get to, if he can cross into like the top 20-ish, that's a huge win given the way it looked after the first two weeks of the 2024 season where we were on this podcast, not sure if he was ever going to get the job back.

after they had benched him. So things look good and hopefully it continues to build. But I was really, really encouraged based off what I saw in the first quarter of last week's preseason game against Cleveland. Yeah, he really showed a good rapport with McMillan in this game. He should have had a TD throw to him on the little anticipatory throw. I thought that was a very good decision that he placed the ball perfectly. It kind of caught McMillan off guard.

So I can excuse the rookie for that drop. But yeah, the throw down the sideline was perfect, dropped it into a buck. That's a throw that Xavier Liggett would have a drop last year for sure. So it's refreshing to see him have a wider seeer that can actually make good on those catches. The TD throw was a little weird to me. I don't know if you caught the All-22. I think on the Broadcast it probably looked better than it did on the All-22. He has Jalen Coker wide open.

He breaks the pocket. He's flush outside the pocket and Coker's kind of running towards the back of the end zone. And he's like open in the corner and there's plenty of room to make the throw. And it doesn't seem like Young feels confident making the throw fitting it in a tight window and kind of like points them back towards the inside towards where the defensive back, the Brown's defensive back is recovering. The defensive back plays it horribly

and the guys are able to cross his face and get open. But like, I don't know. Just I think, I want to see Breach Young make that throw. I want to see if he has the arm talent to make the throw. I want to see him have the confidence to make that throw. Because in the NFL, like during the regular season, I mean you're going to have to make those throws to be the guy that I think he wants to be. But I do think he's cleared the bar.

It's a far cry from last year after week two where like you said, he looked unplayable. He was making jump throws there were defenders. It was hard to watch. There was no surprise that the Panthers ended up benching him. But I think I'm back to where I was

with him pre-draft. Where I liked him, I just didn't love him. And I didn't love him as the top picks in the draft. My comp before the pre-draft was, honey, I shrunk Joe Burrow. And I'm right back there. Like, he doesn't have elite arm talent. He clearly understands the sport

and has a feel for the position. I just don't know if he has that Joe Burrow pocket presence where Joe can go through his progressions from the pocket even if the pocket starts to crumble. Bryce has to get outside of that and get a clear view. He can't reset like you said and throw over body. So I'm still

pumping the brakes on like, oh, he's the franchise quarterback and the Panthers have their guy for the next 10 years. I still need to see a full season of this. And honestly, I think like you said, if he becomes a top 20 quarterback, I do think that's a win compared to where he was last year, but it creates a world of problems for Carolina, which has to make a decision on its

fifth year option next off-season. If he's only like 20, he like, he makes some strides, but it's not convincing. I don't know if he could take him in a bit of 50. That's tough. I don't know what you do that. But I also think if he continues to grow that way and you don't pick up the fifth your option, what message are you sending to this quarterback who has fought his way back into this?

Like, it can get thorny. I think that ultimately that would probably be a Baker-Beeleged situation too with the to have, though. Yeah, yeah. No, that's what you want. But like, maybe he'll ascend even higher than we think and he'll become like a top 10 guy. All right, let's talk about a guy that was also taken in that same draft. The number three, number four, Anthony Richardson. He got four dropbacks. But like I said,

there's a lot to dig into these dropbacks, especially the one that got him hurt. So just to recount the play, the Raven send like a sim pressure. The line is sliding to its left. There's a free rusher off the right side. Anthony Richardson never considers him, even though I think he should have been able to flip his eyes, like the defensive end to the left side. the side he was looking at, drops out, that's the telltale sign that they're coming from the other direction. He has a receiver open in the flat. He doesn't make the throw. Every single former offensive lineman, former quarterback on Twitter posted a breakdown of this video. So if you want to check that out, you can check it out on Twitter. What did you see from Anthony Richardson? I know it doesn't

take much for me to be optimistic about him. You're a little more realistic about him. Did it move you at all? He did have a nice little completion to start the game. I will say that. He did to AD Mitchell. I would say we got to see some of the same things we were talking about before we even got to the preseason game that we had heard reported out of camp, which is that the arm control was improving. It didn't necessarily mean it was good or great, but that he clearly had a lot more control over his mechanics and his delivery of the ball.

I would say the opening drive of that game after they got the pick on Cooper Rush early, it looked like a quarterback that was starting to make some strides. There was a third down that, you know, ultimately where he was laid on the ball, but he stood in the pocket, tried to find a guy open, delivered it with great arm talent. It was just late. So I think it might have been Jalen Armour Davis who got underneath it and almost picked it off. But even than that, I was more so focused on the pocket management and I saw something positive

there. The second drive is where we get the sack that ultimately knocks him out of the game. And like you said, a lot of ink has been spilled on who's to blame, why things work out that way. I was part of that discourse in pointing out, you know, what the. mistakes were in that situation and what you would expect of a quarterback to try to mitigate those problems. But regardless of that, I think that as long as it's just that dislocated Pinky, you know, it seemed that he got right back out to practice after getting it treated and taken

care of. And we haven't heard anything negative out of Indy's camp after that in terms of how he's handled things. I think that we should feel in the same, we should feel like we're in the same holding pattern now as we did before we got to the preseason opener. Right. Like, he just needs the reps is the truth of the matter. He needs the rest. He needs every preseason rep he can get. He's going to need every early season rep he can get. And a lot of this is going to be about his availability. He can't miss games.

The dislocated pinky is not his fault. The guy lands on you funny while you're trying to brace yourself. What can you do? But we do need to see him on the field so we can continue to evaluate it because we definitely didn't get anywhere near enough to say that the problems have been addressed quite yet. No, no. Even I'm not going to try to sell you on that.

If I said Bo Nix looked a lot like he did last year, I feel like Anthony Richardson. We saw the highs that we've seen with the throat A, Mitchell. Like, we've seen that before. We, like, I don't know. It doesn't, it's not any new evidence. We've seen him miss plenty of reads and take plenty of hits. But I think it does fit the theme that, like, I know the pinky was in his fault, but it does fit a recurring theme where he makes a mental mistake and it leads to an injury.

Like, this has happened a couple times so far throughout his career. But he was back at practice. He has been having a good camp by all accounts. Our old buddy, Ben Solac, the traitor himself, was at Colts camp today. And I think he was saying that Richardson was slinging it around. So it seems like he's going to be fine and we won't be subjected to Daniel Jones for a full season. I'm not ready for that.

Did you watch any Daniel Jones now? Did you turn it off? Not a chance, man. Not a chance. That's a healthy brain you got on now. Well, I'm trying. We're fighting the fight for as long as we can. I don't know if Shane Steichen is going to be able to keep us

from avoiding some Daniel Jones throughout this season if anything happens, Anthony Richardson. No, so the Anthony Richardson hype train, which we're still taking a wait-and-see approach. Get back to me in October. or whatever. I want to see him string together a few good NFL games, regular season games. We kind of saw a couple of flashes at the end of last year. The Jets game was really impressive, especially the second half, but I'm going to need to see him put together a full game

that I don't have to make excuses for a couple of the plays. And that certainly did not happen against the Ravens. It wasn't going to happen in four dropbacks or whatever he had. So I think that's going to cover all the quarterbacks that we wanted to hit on today. There's going to be more preseason games, more quarterbacks to break down. I'm sure we're going to check back in on Shodon. later on in the month. But for now, I feel like I got a good feel for a lot of these quarterbacks. I want to see more at Richardson.

But like Bryce Young, I feel like I got a good feel for him going in the season. Bo Nix, I want to see a little bit more of. Is there any quarterback that you really are anxious to see again next week? I would say not just next week, but just throughout the rest of the preseason. Jam of Milro, for me, who he didn't spend a lot of time on today. We got to watch a few. I got to watch a few of his throw in the preseason game against Vegas. I mean, it's very Richardson.

ask honestly, like watching him is very Richardson-esque. Like the ball is not where it needs to be very often. He had a lot of accuracy issues. The thing that I will say about him and it's true of Richardson, it's true of some of these guys that have come into the league lately. The tuck and run, like we talked about that with Jaden Daniels last year. Like I remember week one against the bucks and you'll scramble in a ton. Like there's just this effect of when he tucks the ball and starts running where you realize like there's maybe only two people on the football field on either side of the ball that can run with this dude if he really turns it up to top speed. And that's a maybe.

So, you know, obviously we don't expect to see him much this year, if at all. So the preseason is going to be the only time we really get to evaluate him. Arm talent is there. He's got a strong arm. Arm control is not. The athleticism is very tantalizing. And hopefully there's enough quarterback development there to where after Sam Donald's tenure is up, maybe that's a guy that can kind of give you a couple of

bridge years, be a great athlete, run for a bunch of yards, do the kind of just Fields and Pittsburgh thing. And I think that that's an aspiration that I think he can meet if I'm only working off of what we've seen so far in training camp from the first free season game. That's a lot of progress from where he was as a college prospect. I mean, you don't talk about a guy that might have been unplayable. Like some of it was really bad. It sounds like a quarterback right at my alley.

Armed talent for days, scrambling ability, can't hit the broadside of a bar. That's my type of quarterback. So you don't have to really say anymore. I might have to watch him go back and watch that tape against. the charges and watch them next week too. Let's take another break and we're going to come back and we're going to talk about the best teams of the last quarter century. All right, welcome back.

Like I said earlier in the show, we're doing a cool feature on the ringer this week. We're doing a bracket with the best teams of the last 25 years, the last quarter of century. I think we've played 25 seasons of NFL ball this century. We have a lot of great teams that we can remember right now. And I wanted to get your thoughts on this. I wanted to see how you're looking at the bracket.

I know the voting has already started. there's already some big, huge leads. I don't want to spoil anything. You can go check that out on the ringer.com. But let's just run through this bracket real quick and see what your thoughts are on that. I want to start with the top half of the bracket where we have the 2013 Seahawks as the number one seed.

We have the 2009 Saints as the two seed in that region, and then the 2010 Packers as the four seed and the 2008 Steelers as the three seed. If you're looking at that bracket, which team are you taken out of that thing? I think it's a no-brainer for me, 2013 Seahawks, but any contenders that you might think could upset them maybe? In that bracket, no, I actually think the closest comparison for really talking about team quality versus team quality

and not just the outcome of the season. I think that the 2011 Packers is probably the closest team and team quality to them. I think that we have very rosy, fond memories of like the 2012 Ravens because of what we got out of the playoff run. That was like a very mid-team that just happened to go 10 and 6 with a bad quarterback that just went on a hit. heater for a month and won a Super Bowl. I said maybe the 2009 Saints.

I think that that defense is very underrated because some of the metrics I think maybe aren't the friendliest compared to some of the other teams that are in this bracket. I think that watching them in that year, watching what Drew Breeds was, watching that pass rush and how aggressive the 09's defense for New Orleans was. Maybe they can give them a game. But the closest matchup, I think, is the 2011 Packers. And even with them, I think when you stack up the accomplishments and the legacy of the Legion of Boom and what that

2013 Super Bowl was, which was like maybe the greatest defensive performance of the last decade, decade or so, it's going to be hard for anybody in this racket to compete with Seattle in that way. No, that Super Bowl performance was just, I still remember. The way

the Camt Chancellor hit on the Demarius Thomas drag row. Oh, my, like, after that play, I think I was like, oh, this game is over. This game's over. That was after like the box snap. After the safety, that game was very clearly over, very early. Those were two teams playing very different sports at that time.

No, I'm definitely, and I'm with you on the 2009 since. I think that's an underrated team. They cause a lot of turnovers, a lot of havoc with that Craig Williams defense, and two breweries was at the top of his game. Sean Payton, frankly, was at the top of his game. But yeah, nobody's touching 2013 Ciox. So let's put them in the final four for us. Let's go down to the other side of that bracket.

We already teased this matchup before. 2,24 Eagles are the one seed. and they're going up against the 2015 Panthers. A team very near and dear to my heart, but I can't even make the argument. I feel like the 2024 Eagles, in hindsight, one of the best teams, like if you look at their statistical profile

and their point differential and how they won games, especially after that slow start to the season, I mean, this is one of the better teams that we've seen in the last 10 years. I mean, it went by kind of quietly up until like the end, when it looked like they were made me in contention

for the one seed with Detroit, where I think people kind of looked up and was like, oh, wait, Philadelphia. really hasn't lost since their by week. You know, like, it was a commander's game was basically the last game that they had that they lost going down the stretch of the season. I think that it's tough for me,

and maybe this is a little bit like being too close to the elephant. For me, since I watched Philadelphia really closely, it's hard for me to extricate what ultimately happened with the way that the offense scuffled outside of Saquan Barkley's touches. Because it was rough. The defense was dominant. The defensive performance was dominant. That's one of the best coverage units that we've had since the 2015 Broncos that beat that Panthers team that you're talking about in the Super Bowl.

So the Eagles are high up there. I will just say for me, this is me and my childhood, the 2002 Buccaneers, like that has a very special place in my heart and soul. Like I can just think of the Monday night footballs and Simeon Rice and Booger McFarland and Greg Spires, Derek Brooks, Rondea Barber, like John Lynch. You were talking about a who's who of defense. And I mean, that underfront, that underfront Tampa 2 style of defense that they built over, you know, four or five years before John Gruden even got there under Tony Dungee and Monty Kiffin, that has an influence on the defense that D'Amico Ryan's is running in Houston right now. That has an influence, frankly, over the way that the 2024 Eagles play their split safety defenses today,

like in terms of being ahead of the curve and having an influence on the modern, style of game defensively. I think of the O2 bucks, the 2000 Ravens, I think of those mid-90s, Jimmy Johnson, Dallas teams that brought in cover four at the time. That was one of those kind of trailblazing units. The O2 bucks were.

And for anybody who doesn't remember what it looked like, you have to go batch and watch those playoff games. They forced three turnovers, at least in each of their three playoff games. They saw a really good Eagles offense and basically blanked them in the snow on the road as a team from Florida, which was kind of unprecedented in a history at that time. Like, warm weather teams usually really struggled in the snow around that time

and got to the Super Bowl against the Raiders. I mean, it just made Rich Gannon's like a living hell. So three great sixes, it was ridiculous watching that game from beginning to end. I remember the narrative after that game was like, oh, Gruden knew the signs and knew the signals, and that's why they were able to really tamped out on what the Raiders did. No, hell no. That defense was going to dominate that game no matter what. And another team, man, I feel like you kind of left out that they influenced was the 2013 Seahawks.

Yeah. Pete Carroll was a Monty Kiffin guy. Monty Kiffin was obviously the defensive coordinator there. Big influence. I think Kyle Shanahan said it himself. Tampa 2 was basically three deep. Like Seattle's three deep. When it plays out, you have three guys deep and you have four guys underneath.

It's the same kind of the same concept just with different structures and different run boxes and stuff like that. But no, I really feel like that was the team. I think they could have given the Eagles a problem, the 2024 Eagles, but the offense kind of stuck. The offense, the offense. I'll say Brad Johnson specifically is a problem. Kishar Johnson, I think, can play in the air. It would be fine. Kenna McCardell will be fine.

You know, Joe Jure or vicious, like that trio of receivers, I think could show up in a modern context and be just fine. Brad Johnson, based on what we've seen, from what big fan jail does to other mid-quarterbacks, Brad Johnson probably would have been in hell that game. No, Jalen Carter would have eaten him, like, eating him. He would have been done. Like, I don't know what he would have done. The other team off the round from this bracket, 2013 Broncos, I know they got smacked by the Seahawks,

but that was a very, very, very good defense. A great, very good team, a very historic offense, a very good defense. They just ran into a juggernaut in the 2013 Seahawks. Let's go to the other side of the bracket. Hold on before we go, one more team in here that I'm interested in, and I know I'm really interested in what your takes are about it because you spend a lot of time covering this team for the ringer.

The 2021 Rams is a really confounding one for me. Like that's one of the, you know what they are. To me, they're the perfect example of a one game versus full season type of thing, right? Because that offense sputtered at times. They were gangbusters to start the year. You couldn't blitz Matthew Stafford. You couldn't play man against Matthew Stafford. They couldn't really run the ball for a little while.

They sucked on early downs for a little bit. So I think that some of the luster kind of came off of what they were by the time. and they got to the playoffs. But you look at the quality of teams that they saw. They eliminated the 2021 bucks, which is basically the same team that it just almost blanked Tampa Bay, or she didn't blank Kansas City

in the Super Bowl the year before. They go and beat a really good 49ers team. And again, they probably didn't deserve to win, if we're being honest, if they're able to catch interceptions, that game probably doesn't go that way. And then they get the gangbusters, 2021 Bengals offense that was just go balls all the time.

and they're able to win that game. I think that if you put the 2021 Rams against the 24 Eagles or the 02 bucks, that's one of those like, I think that Matthew Stafford can beat those teams. I don't know if the, I think Aaron Donald can wreck a game. I don't know if they have enough

in terms of the supporting cast around those two guys to beat those loaded rosters, but I would not count them out in any matchup against those teams. No, and honestly, I feel like they just had that one three game stretch where they, I think they lost three games in a row. there was like a game against the Packers where Stafford threw six.

It was an embarrassment against the Packers if I remember right. But outside of that, they were like one of the dominant teams of that season. I think that kind of belies how good they were, their regular season record. I'd also throw the 2005 Steelers as that Tommy Maddox started to end their losses. Kind of forgotten by history, honestly. Yeah, I wrote the blur for that one on the site. Like, I think they had the record for like their playoff run. The teams they beat combined for 51 wins.

Like they'd be the Colts on the road. They beat a good Bengals team with that was flying high with Carson Palmer. I know that Carson Palmer got hurt in the beginning of that game. They beat a Broncos team. That was like the Mike Shanahan, the peak of the Mike Shanahan, Jake Plummer offense. And then they just killed a very, very, very talented Seahawks offense. I was just running over every team. So I thought that team was a lot better than it's gotten credit for because it went 11 and 5 during the regular season.

Let's go to the other side of the bracket. I don't know if you had to spend too much time in this bracket. I know they didn't win the Super Bowl, but the 2007 Patriots are the number one seat here. I don't like, I want to watch 2007 Patriots versus the 2000 Ravens, but I think I know how that's going to end. I think Bill Belichick's going to get the better of Trent Dofer. What do you think? I mean, that game probably ends like 13-0, 10-0.

Like Bill Belichick absolutely puts the cobra clutch on to Trip Delfer. The 2000 Ravens probably force a Tom Brady turnover or two. But I mean, that's Randy Moss, man. That's the peak of Randy Moss, the peak of Tom Brady, and the peak of the Patriots brand and their evolution offensively, honestly. Like, it's tough. The closest competitor is probably whoever you think is better

between the 01 Rams and the 06 Chargers. And even in that, like, we're talking about, we're talking about a Patriots team that was hanging 35 plus on teams very, very easily in that era. I don't know if anybody can compete with that outside of Eli Manning, apparently. Yeah, you just need a Asante-Safe

Samuels dropped interception. You need a helmet catch and a miraculous Geli-Manyxcaped. If you get all that, and then you get Michael Shrayhan and O.C.U. Or did you get a light-tile performance from your front four? Maybe. And a brilliant Steve Spagnolo game playing. You get all that, then you can upset them by three points. But we saw the 2001 Patriots beat the 2001 Rams.

The 2007 Patriots are a lot better. And I went back to watch. Yeah. Yeah. I went back and watched some 2001 Rams games because I was, and like Jim Johnson was taken Mike Martes to school with his Blitz packages. I'm pretty sure Bill Belichick would have something cooked up for him. So we're going to, let's pencil into 2007 Patriots in the Final Four. And then last bracket, we have the 2019 Chiefs,

that's the one team, which I think is the best Chiefs team that we've seen. It was still the high-flying offense. And then that was the first year of Spags and Tyron Matthew. They kind of got their two-high stuff going, their disguise stuff. It took a little while. Over the first half the season, their defense was still pretty bad. But over the second half, they were top-ten unit, and they carried that into the playoffs. I know they had a tough game against the 49. and needed a miraculous comeback there. But that was the best Chiefs team of the Patrick Mahomes era so far. I'm looking down the list in which teams would really challenge them.

And that 2004 Patriots team, man, I was looking back at that era. They went like 30 and 2 over like a two-season span and won the Super Bowl twice. That was maybe perhaps the greatest stretch in NFL history. I mean, I remember the conversations at that time was exactly that, right? I remember them holding up the newspaper on the field after they won the Super Bowl. I think Teddy Bruske is talking about like this is the greatest run any NFL team has ever had. And that's how it felt. I mean, basically between 2001 and 2007, it felt like a miracle if you beat the Patriots.

And this was like you said, kind of at that nexus where the defensive identity that Bill Belichick originally had with this team had met, was starting to meet Tom Brady as he was swinging into it. prime. And that was a big reason why they, I mean, you just couldn't do anything with them, especially in a playoff context. The Colts were good that year, had no shot against the Patriots. I mean, the rules get changed, right? After that, because the how bad they got to be down. You know, the Pittsburgh Steelers, we talked about that team that was a championship level team the year after could do nothing with prime Tom Brady. And then you get to the Eagles game and like, that's maybe my favorite example of close score, not close game. Philadelphia hung by scoreboard, you go back and watch that game.

I mean, after the first quarter, it was pretty clear. There was one team hanging on for Deer Life and another team that clearly knew they were about to win a championship. So do you think they beat the 2019 Chiefs? I think they would. I think they would. I think they're probably your best bet in this bracket. I would say sneakily, the 06 Colts against the 2019 Chiefs would be a really fun matchup, hypothetical matchup to put on the field.

Because just like we talked about with the O4 Patriots, we're talking about a team. team with a quarterback in his prime and a defense that has finally figured itself out. You have those pair of pass rushers with Dwight Freeney, younger Robert Matthews. You have Bob Sanders healthy in his prime. You have prime Marvin Harrison. Like they had checked every box basically. And that was a team that was kind of teeming at Super Bowl contention over the last three years and had finally kind of had, you know, the alchemy they needed to be able to go get over the hump.

I think they could give 2019 a shot. I think those would be my two picks that could play with them. Ultimately, I think 04 Patriots probably has the best shot. And I actually think I might pick that team over the 2019 chiefs, if I'm being honest. Yeah, I'm definitely taking them. I think that's one of the greatest teams of all time. And I think it's a culmination of those two years. 2003, that team beat the Panthers.

I will never forgive John Casey for kicking the last field go out of bounds, given time to the time in the Eagles' game. In the Eagles game, like you said, it was a little – it wasn't as close to the score implies. But all right, let's go to our final. and then we can get out of here. 2007 Patriots versus 2004 Patriots is a heavyweight match.

And I'm not sure who I would take. I think that 2007 Patriots team, we know about the offense, but with a Bill Belichick game playing against that offense, like you look at the roster, Wes Welker was a very, very good slot receiver. He wasn't known as a superstar back then.

Randy Moss very much as superstar, one of the greatest receivers at all time. No need to, you know, reconcile that. But like the rest of the team, the lines of line was pretty good. Benjamin Watson was there. Lawrence Moroney was there. Dante Stallworth was the number two receiver.

Like, I think this 2004 Patriots team could give them a run for their money. And the Patriots defense had gotten pretty old by 2007 and kind of needed to be transition out of that. So I'm not sure that 2004 Patriots don't pull the upset here. I would pick the 04 Patriots straight up. Like, that was just a better roster. I think the 07 was a more impressive year for Tom Brady. But like you said, you go back and you actually look at that 2D.

It's honestly not as impressive as you think it is. It's a lot of Bill Belichick being a lights out play caller and Tom Brady having a number one receiver, right? Like that was kind of what powered this whole thing. And no team, like they were the first team to go, hey, how about we get into the gun and put three odd receivers on the field? Let's make Ray Lewis defend a stick route by West Welker. Like, I don't know. I think Bill Belichick would have better answers for that. Like, yeah, the O4 Patriots don't have an impressive wide receiver for, but I think if you go back and look at just how capable Dion Branch and David,

Givens were you think about, you know, you mentioned a young Benjamin Watson with the 07 team, but outside of that, there's really not a whole lot. Besides he and Moss, you have Corey Dillon for the 04 team. You have a good offensive line for New England. That's still when they have young guys that are moving bodies, they were able to control the line of scrimmage. And then on the other side, like, that's a who's who of Patriot of Prime Belichick defense. Willie McGinnis is still there. You have Richard Seymour still at the peak of his powers. You still have Teddy Ruski playing at a high level. You've got Thai law still playing at a high level.

It would be hard for me to imagine that 04 Patriots team losing almost anybody in this bracket. Like that's one of those teams. It might not be my favorite. But if you're asking me to be honest about who can beat anybody in this 32 team bracket, the 04 Patriots is probably the best bet for that. Also, are we playing with the 2004 rules because if we are pre like, definitely illegal context.

No chance. Nobody has a chat. They're locking them down. Because the only reason that Patriots is, team kind of popped up in that offense was because they had to, you know, you couldn't really press, you couldn't beat receivers up like you used to be able to, and that kind of introduced the pass appierre, which was spearheaded by that 2007 Patriot team. All right, on the other side of the bracket, we have 2002 bucks. 2002 bucks versus the 2013 Seahawks. We just talked about the connection between

those. I'm taking the Seahawks. I'm taking the Seahawks as Russell. I don't think Russell Wilson was the star, but he was much better than Brad Johnson. Marshawn Lynch, they had a underrated receiving Corps. I don't think the offensive line was that great, but the same was true in Tampa Bay. And then I'm taking the more modern defense. It's a similar approach, but you have aliens on you have Earl Thomas, you have Cam Chancer, maybe one of the greatest performances we've ever seen by safety ever in that Super Bowl. Go back and watch that film. It's insane. The two linebackers, K.J. Wright and Bobby Wagner. Richard Sherman at his best. Richard Sherman at his best.

Byron Maxwell was still a pretty good player in that system. The pass rush, Michael Bennett was insane because play inside, could play outside. Averill was insane. God, that team was so good. I don't see how the 2002 bucks hang with them, to be honest. The offense to me is the differentiating factor. I think that the 02 bucks, and I said this in the blurb I did on them, like, you could line that defense playing the way they played then right now,

up against the modern offense. And I think I'd feel good about my chances. Like, I think they can run the Tampa 2 against any and everything. that a modern offense can throw at them in this era. I think that, like you said, the differentiating factor is that Russell Wilson at that stage, how athletic he was, something that I think people are starting to forget, as he's gotten older, is how athletic and how strong of an arm he had when he was younger and in his prime. And I think having Marshawn Lynch is a huge differentiating factor as well.

That to me as a team, they can kind of beat you any way that you want to play. You think about the Packers game, they were able to air the ball out, right? You get that overtime win, if I remember in right, when they play in the playoffs. Then you get that war against San Francisco in an NFC title game where they can just go punch for punch, you know, pound the ball, three yards in a cloud of dust.

If you put the ball in the air, we're going to hurt one of your receivers types of football. They can do that with the best of them. Like in that decade, that's the gold standard, is a 2013 CHawks. And I think that they would beat out the O2 bucks if they were to play head up. Yeah, I love that.

defense very near and dear to my heart like you said but you introduced the zone read to those light boxes and you have to do stuff yeah they don't have the tools to handle that and I honestly would take the 2013 Bucs over the 2004 Patriots I think the 2013 Seahawks are the best

team I've ever seen that would be a hell of a game honestly it's probably the best matchup we could have put together in this where am I at with that but I picked the 13 Cs I think I'm still going 04 Patriots. I think I'm still going 04 Patriots.

I don't hate it. I don't hate it. That was, I will say stylistically, that's a tough one to line up because teams weren't running offenses than the way they were by 2013. I mean, it's going to be real uncomfortable for Teddy Bruske having to step out and play, play the zone read on Russell Wilson, you know, or have to go play tight ends, run an option routes underneath. You know, or you put Golden Tate.

or somebody like that at number three in the slot, and he's running right up the middle of the field. I don't think that's going to be a very comfortable place for Brusky in this defense to be. But I think having Thai law, having Willie McGinnis, having Richard Seymour to control the line of scrimmage, I'm going 04 Patriots. This is not me just working for the ringer and doing the New England thing.

I promise this is not ringer homerism. Everybody knows I am not a Patriots fan in that kind of way. but that 04 team had no holes on it. Not the other team, Seahawks team did, but that O4 Patriots team is close to a perfect run from beginning and the end

as you can have in the lead. No, I think you're right. I do think you're right on the right track, at least, but I'm taking the 2013. I'm sticking with Seattle, it's still the best team I ever seen, but you can't go wrong with either of those two teams. And really, you could throw the 2007 Patriots in the fold.

I wouldn't go as far with the 2002 bucks because the offensive limitations, but there have been a lot of great teams. And I feel like we're going to look back at some of these recent teams more fondly at the further we get away from them. But yeah, go vote on the ringer.com. I think we're going to be doing it all week.

I think we're going to be down to the round of 16 by the time this airs. But it should be a fun exercise. That's going to do it for us this week. Thanks to Christopher Sutton for production. Thanks to Kiar Givens on socials. Thanks to Connor Nevins and Arjuno Rampball for additional production supervision.

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