The Ringer NFL Show - QBs in the Modern Era With Dan Orlovsky | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: June 7, 2019

It’s easier to be aggressive as a quarterback in 2019, why teams don’t run more motion and play-action (1:00), how defenses can exploit quarterbacks, adopting college defensive schemes in the NFL, Kellen Moore’s potential in Dallas, and second-year breakout candidates at quarterback (14:35). Host: Robert Mays, Kevin Clark Guest: Dan Orlovsky Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Ringer podcast network. I'm Liz Kelly. The Ringer is introducing a new live Twitter after show covering season two of HBO's Big Little Lies with Jam sessions Amanda Dobbins and ESPN's Mina Kimes. Immediately after each episode, they'll be going live to give their initial reactions and break down everything we saw in the episode. And to kick us off, there will be a special season two preview airing this Friday, June 7th at 12 p.m. Pacific. So join Amanda and Mina for that this week and then catch Big Little Live every Sunday night on Twitter. To the Ringer NFL show. on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark. Kevin, today we are continuing our offseason series of big questions and big ideas about the NFL.

We talked about the salary cap on our last show with Jason Fitzgerald from Over the Cap. Today we are digging into the quarterback position. All things quarterback, the most important position in sports, with our man from ESPN, Dan Orlovsky. Dan, we want to start with the breaking news, which is that you destroyed Adam Schefter. in a chugging contest that's now gone viral and will continue to go viral it just broke a couple of hours ago

were you expecting that poorer performance from Schefter to be honest with you yes and here's why as incredible of a person as Shepty is and obviously he's a phenomenal reporter

we love him he went to Ann Arbor you know like I lived in Michigan for seven years and the saying was was go to East Lansing. So for all the Ann Arbor people out there that might not like that,

that's just what I was told, and it kind of played itself out on NFL live today. Now I know Brady went to Ann Arbor, too. I was really proud of my performance. I was at the same time when you go to school in Stores, Connecticut, and it's January, there's not a lot to do. So I have some background and kind of being relatively equipped in that. Okay, we are not going to vote the entire podcast as much as we would like to.

We're here to talk quarterbacks. Dan, 2018 was the year of the quarterback, but so was 2017 and 2016. And basically every year is the year of the quarterback. But when you think about the leaps and bounds, the quarterback partition grew by in 2018, what is the biggest thing? Well, I'd say as much as things have changed, I do want to drill home the point of they still are the same in many ways. Like the things that allow guys to be successful over time, that still is paramount. Can you be really accurate with the football?

We saw that last year. Like, we saw a guy that was six foot come into the NFL last year and break Peyton Manning and in Russell Wilson's rookie passing record for touchdowns. That's Baker. Baker did that because you look at his accuracy. So that's still there. Like it just, we're accepting more of it looking differently when it comes to their size. But I would say the greatest thing that stood out would be the willingness of coaches to allow their quarterbacks to play aggressive football.

Like, for such a long time in the NFL, and I kind of grew up in this era in the NFL. Not a part of it, but it was the last 15 years, so many coaches would be, you know what, just don't turn the football over. That would be coached into quarterback so consistently of, you know, let's get a completion. You know, we heard that in the 2000s was we want to just be completion driven. So just get completions. We'll play good defense and kick the ball well. And really what we saw this past year was even for Baker of being aggressive, obviously Patrick Mahomes being aggressive, golf was super aggressive.

A guy like Mitcher Trubiskew took a massive step forward. It was because these guys were coached to be aggressive with the football. And that's probably a little bit to do with rules, probably a little bit to do with space. It's probably a little bit to do with these coaches just having. a little bit more courage to call plays that are a little bit more risky, but a little bit more reward. And that's probably the biggest thing as far as on the field. Schematically, I would say more coaches are getting to understand how important information is for their quarterbacks before the play. And if you can give that to your guy,

you certainly help him before the ball ever gets that. So I want to ask you about just the aggressiveness part, because I do feel like that's true, but I also feel like, like you said, rules, a lot of other factors have kind of come together to make that possible. Do you think that it's easier to play quarterback aggressively right now than it's ever been?

Do you think this approach would have worked in the era that you started when you came into the league? Or do you think it's unique to what we're experiencing right now? No, I think it's unique to what we're experiencing right now. It's easier, and this is why.

So there's more teams playing man-to-man defense right now in the NFL or a version of man or match defense. When I say match defense, meaning, you know, before the snap, it's really a zone. And then when somebody comes into a player's zone, they match them like if they are in man coverage. More teams are playing defensively playing some kind of a man because of the RPO infusion, the run-pass option infusion that has come to the NFL has scared teams so much

defensively. And the number one way to shut down really RPO's is make sure you're not a zone. So your defenders aren't in the, okay, is it run or is it past? You just play man defense, and it takes away really the opportunity of the big opportunity for the past part of it. And so when you get a ton of man coverage, which is what's happening a lot in the NFL nowadays, you've got an opportunity to be more aggressive. You've got opportunities to push the ball down field or get some picks where, you know, in the early 2000s, the whole craze of the NFL was really playing zone. And it was really two kinds of zone. It was that your Tampa

with two where eyes were on the quarterback or your cover three, which is kind of what the, like, Colts made their run on. And so that's zone defense where just get the ball out of your hands because the pass rush was so good. The completions were there. And that's why it was coached into guys. Just get completion. Just get completions.

Make sure you're not turning the ball over or you don't have the six or seven different sets of eyes on you when you're in the pocket and the ball's coming out early. So it is easier for quarterbacks to be aggressive. now because art of men coverage I like this guy against this matchup and defenses are playing

more of it. Hey, Dan, is there a guy and there may not be or there may be a hundred of them? Is there a guy you think about

who did not play in this era where you liked to have seen them play now with the way things are set up? Maybe they were just born in the wrong

years. Is there a guy maybe you played in years past that you say man, this guy would just crush it right now?

There's probably a ton. You know, I would say Michael Vic right now in this era would be scary. You know, that's kind of what I like in Tyler Murray,

so I've always compared Murray to Michael Vic. Just because, again, he would be a very difficult to guide the game playing against. He always was, but like, could you imagine him being an offense with, that had three or four really good skill players, that had the threat of the zone read and also the threat

of the RPO and the speed that he had, it would be very scary to defend against him. You know, it'd be interesting, like, Could you imagine with a different narrative on a guy like Jeff George, you know, who it was a physical monster and could throw it up and down the lot, but, you know, didn't think that well. I say this, and it's not a slight on guys. There's prime examples of quarterbacks having to think less nowadays for a lot of different snaps in the NFL. Now, there's certain times where you have to more because of some of the different coverages in the middle field open blitz packages you get.

you have to think more, yes, but there's also a lot of times when it's just recess and your in-man coverage and, hey, you don't have to think that much. And that's when the talent reigns supreme. And that's not a slight end, I'd be. So that would probably be one that I'd be interested in. So the thinking less, that part of it just fascinates me because I think that you look at the league and there's so many teams doing a good job of setting their quarterbacks up to succeed while others are still setting theirs up to fail. So both with the information gathering and just the schematic tendencies. What do you see as aspects of those offenses that are really doing what they can to help

their quarterbacks? Well, I'd say the number one thing, and people have heard me talk about this a lot, is you're telling you're cutting your quarterback's coverage, opportunity in half. And what I mean by that is a lot of good team, I've called up to Patriots, and they are telling their quarterback before the snap, is it donor man? And they're doing that, like so many people know and so many fans know by moving. running backs around or moving tight ends around and seeing who on the defense is covering that guy. So now you've taken 50% of the chances, 50% of the potential of coverages are gone

before the snap for quarterback. You talk about having to think less. That's a perfect example. A lot of teams are doing a really good job of cutting the field in half for guys, meaning they're telling them, hey, if you get any kind of middle field closed coverage, any kind of defense that has a safety in the middle field, you're reading this guy. You're reading this side of the field. And then you're getting teams going, okay, if you've got middle field open,

you've got two safeties in the middle field is open, you're reading this side of the field. You know, I had a quarterback coach Greg Knapp who kind of really started doing this with Steve Young, and they called cutting the field in half, meaning you no longer are asking your quarterback to read the whole field a lot. You're cutting in half for him.

So you've really started to speed things up. the good coaches are doing that. And then really good coaches are understanding how much the movement of the second level is to help your passing game. You know, we only so often think of passing game tied to the secondary, but the really good coaches are the ones that are doing things to move the second level, the linebackers or drop down safety down in the box, because that's what really opens things up. Because when you talk about like a quarterback read, they really do. do quarterbacks read where the corner is? They feel where the corner is. Or read where a safety is.

You feel their color. What quarterbacks need is the vision cleared of that second level because that's when you get a little bit hung in between for so many different routes. Can I get it up over him or can I get it through those two guys? But coaches that are displacing those guys left to right side line and the sideline are making it easier for their quarterbacks. So here's my pet theory about this. I guess this is my, whatever, my hypothesis about who does that well and how.

Is motion and play action? It feels like those are the two aspects that would do that. Those two things the best. So why, what's the deterrence to teams not doing those things more often? Is there a reason we haven't seen more teams embrace the amount of play action and motion like the Rams have or the chiefs have or the Patriots have? Yeah, it's a great question. And you're right.

It is with motion and play action. That's how you get that side to side. move, why aren't more teams doing it? It's a little bit of a twofold. One, a lot of coaches in the NFL haven't done it and haven't been exposed to it, but they've been exposed to other things that have worked in the past. And coaches are hard-headed guys. Like, coaches think that I can fix this guy.

Oh, I can make this guy a player. Oh, no, this offense has been great. I experienced it myself. I remember playing with the Lions, and Mike Martz was coming. coming over to be our offensive coordinator. And we would do all the stuff that the Rams did. We would do all the dropback game that the Rams did. And we could not do it.

And Mike Mark kept calling that stuff that the Rams were great at. And one time, I remember having a conversation with John Kittner, and we were talking about the struggles. I said, here's the reality, dude. This offense is great when you have Tori Holp and Isaac Bruce and Orlando Pace and Marshall Falk. Like when you have those guys, this offensive. is great. But we can't run this offense. Joe Lombardi was our offensive coordinator with the

lion. He kept calling plays that the Stink would be very good at. The lions and Matthew Stafford weren't, but he kept calling it because that's all he knew. One, that's all he knew. Two, he's thought be successful somewhere else. And so he's like, no, this works. I've seen it work. That's the biggest reason or one of the reasons why coaches can't do it. And the second thing is this, and this is kind of my analogy of it. You know, I can go on YouTube right now. I'm a six foot five, 205 pound very very non-rhythmic dude i can go on youtube and search i can go on youtube and search how to dance right and i can watch dance videos step-by-step dance videos as much as i want at the end of the day i'm still not going to be able to dance so these coaches can watch all the cut-ups they

want of all this motion and and play action and whatnot but if they don't know how to teach it they can watch it all they want. They're not going to be good at it. And so a lot of it is these coaches just can't figure out how to make it happen. In the same way, I can't just figure out how to dance just because I watch some videos of it. All right, before we get back to Dan, let's take a quick break. Father's Day is around the corner, and a subscription to Golf Digest Schools is the perfect gift. With more than 350 video lessons on every part of the game,

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The RPO isn't the phenomenon it was two or three years ago, but it's still scaring defenses enough. It's still in the back of the mind. Obviously, you see so many of now the McVeigh, Shanahan-type offenses around the league. Andy Reid's offense is proliferating. when you think about what defenses can do, now there's tape?

Is there any sort of coverage, is there any sort of advantage they'll have? Maybe after the Super Bowl and seeing what Belichick did at McVeigh, is there any sort of advantage they'll have in 2019 they didn't have in 2018 or 2017? Well, I've said this for about 18 months now, and I saw one clip of it last year.

I'll go back to the original statement I made about information for your quarterback. And when teams move, they're running backs or tight ends. And we saw this with the Colts versus the Texas last year. And I would imagine you guys saw this clip because, you know, the Texans were in an offensive formation. They motioned their back out and the Colts brought Darius Leonard out and matched him, Darius Leonard, to the running back. So they basically were telling like Deshaun Watson, like,

hey, we're playing man coverage. And then at the snap of the ball, they dropped out and played zone. And actually, Deshaun Watson threw a pick because he was anticipating man coverage. I've been waiting for defenses to start doing this. Now, it's really difficult because you can expose yourself to some issues. Like Gary's Leonard was out playing a cover two squat corner in the flat. But I'm waiting for defenses to be more willing to start to mess with the information that you're giving quarterback. So I would imagine more defensive coordinators will have more packages where they lie to

quarterback, where they'll go match the safety out on a tight end and they're going to place cover three or place them cover two to that. So then the quarterbacks still have to, they don't have to. have that advantage anymore. I want to see more defensive coordinators be willing to do that. Now that being said, you've got to have the personnel to do it. You've got to have some guys that you trust, some guys that can communicate. They've got to be really smart. That would be the number one thing that I'm looking for to defense is doing. And also, I do believe that we've seen offensive coaches in the offseason go down to Norman, Oklahoma, and spend some time

with Lincoln Riley. We need to get more defense. defensive coaches more willing to go spend some time with some college coaches and some defensive college coaches that are good at it. Like, if I was an NFL defensive coordinator, I'm going down to TCU and I'm spending time with Gary Patterson, who does such a great job of, you know, in the NFL right now, defenses really need to start playing schemes more than playing defenses. You know, they, okay, we're cover three, but they've really got to start playing some teams, offensive schemes to minimize the advantages that offenses has, which is something Gary Patterson does really well down at CCU. Those would be the two things that I'm looking forward to

seeing are more NFL defense is doing this. So what do you mean by that? When you say playing schemes instead of playing defense, is it more about just matching what the defense is doing and kind of playing specifically off of them? Or is it about kind of... Exactly. Okay. Exactly. So like, you know, for the longest time, it's a cover three. It's kind of two. It's quarters. It's man-free. It's robber, whatever, and they're playing their defense. What TCU does a great job of is they don't do a lot of different defenses, but okay, your two receivers are in tight splits here, and we know that you guys like to run these schemes out of these splits. So, like, you'll DC defenses do this down sometimes in third down and down in the red zone. Like, they'll get

very specific and what the offensive set is, and then they'll change their defense per what the offense is lined up as. But defenses need to do this constantly. Like, okay, your two receivers are two yards from the tackle and they're in a back position. We know that you guys run these concepts. We're not going to run cover three here. We're going to shut down those schemes by the way we match and communicate,

and then we're going to take all that stuff away. You know, it's almost what New England did in the Super Bowl in many ways where they played some really different defenses with their six guys at the line of scrimmage and the way they rotate. their coverage, they shut down teams more than played defenses. It was very specific to what they were trying to do against L.A. More teams need to be focused on that defensively rather than we're just going to play cover two. So when you, that Darius Leonard play with the Colts,

it feels like the way that more teams could accomplish that is by having second level defenders and even third level defenders that can kind of be a little bit more malleable in coverage. Do you feel like that's when you're talking about getting the right personnel? Do you feel like that's where it's going to go, where everyone kind of behind the defensive front is going to be closer to the same size than they would have been five, ten years ago? Oh, sure. I mean, that's what really happened in college football. If you look at college football and you watch tape or you, you know, watch depth chart,

safetys and linebackers almost look to be the same person. So that's going to be a big thing to see these teams and how they draft and whatnot. Now, that being said, you know, like, it's funny because I said like a lot of the league caught up to New England but New England went back in time last year like that's the caveat

is New England became this punch in the mouth the running running football team and so when you do that when you have your linebackers looking a little bit more like safeties and safety looking a little bit more like linebackers you can be exposed to getting the ball run right at you down your throat so that's like it's this really fine

cat and mouse game in many ways ways of like, okay, what are we going to be willing to sacrifice a little bit because we know that there are some weaknesses to everything that we do. But I would imagine seeing more teams, if that's what they're going to do, because that's, like I said, if you're asking me, that's what needs to happen for defenses to catch up and even the playing field a little bit. Yeah, you're going to have to see some linebackers and safety's kind of be interchangeable part. Dan, you know, one of the things that Robert and I talk about off the podcast is how many changes there are at play caller, the show.

offensive play caller. And it's almost unbelievable how many guys, how many teams basically seem like they're changing play caller every year, whether their play caller gets a head coaching job or they're just, you know, getting rid of sort of bad play callers. The NFL seems to be cycling out of that. With all the movement in the league, is there any sort of coach play caller combination you've circled for 2019 where you're saying, okay, this is the breakout, whether it's Donald and Gase, whether it's, I mean, there's a lot of them, is there any sort of 2019 dream team that you're

saying these guys are going to be much better together than maybe they were in 2018. You know, I've said this. I'm super intrigued what Kellan Moore is going to do in Dallas. Ooh, yeah. You don't hear that a lot. And this is why, like,

I don't think anyone can argue that Jack has been a good quarterback in Dallas. Some people might say he's been really good, but you can't say he's been bad, and you can't really say he's been below average. He's been good in Dallas, and he's done that with a little bit of limited skill player around them, but really

with a very limited offensive creativity mindset, right? Like they've been staticky. It's been this receiver better to win against this coverage or it's going to be a football in the dirt type thing. Like you haven't utilized a lot of modern day football. You haven't utilized DAC as a weapon.

And telling more steps in here, one, everyone knows his background of he was in, you know, kind of the birthright of creative college football. Boise, where they were, you know, as fun to watch as anybody. So we've learned football that way. Two, his brother coaches in college football. So he's been, he's been attached to it just as a, you know, a family member being a part of it for many years now. And he's still only six, seven years out of college.

So, like, I'm interested to see, and a guy that I play with, and this kid thinks outside the box. Like he, and that's McVeigh, Maggie, Andy Reid, Sean Peyton, like, These guys are all outside the box thinkers. He's a guy that I'm looking at going, he might be the next big thing. I don't know, but there's a lot of traits of the outside-the-box thinking, the attachment to college football, the quarterback that's got a pretty unique skill set

that hasn't been used in the right way. Offensive line, great run game, some pretty good skill players. Like, that's an offense that I'm going, I'd be more surprised if Dallas's offense was okay than if Dallas's offense wasn't the, holy smokes, they're scoring 28 points a game, 30 points a game offense this year. I totally agree.

That's one of the ones I'm so intrigued to watch because it does feel like that he didn't get much help. They weren't propping him up. But more, again, as we talked about all these first year play callers, like you said, it's about more than just watching the clips that work. It's about more than just watching YouTube football. What elements of guys that you've been around that you've seen, just as a play caller, even beyond an offensive mind, allows people to, succeed early.

As a play caller? Yeah. Yeah, I would say, you know, the biggest thing is understanding what your guys don't do well. A lot of times we get caught up in like, and this is part of it like, hey, my guys are good at this, but that makes you be too comfortable. Understanding what your guys don't do well allows you to be more free because you're more willing to take risk of what they do do well. You know what I'm saying?

Like, but understanding, okay, if my guide doesn't do that, well, cool, let's not incorporate that. But what does, what do we want to stay away from? And let's figure out all that stuff and we're not going to do any of that. But then let's get super creative in the stuff that we feel comfortable with. I'd say just understanding what your guys don't do well. And then having that courage, that willingness to be open-minded and to think outside the box and to not necessarily like, coaches, a lot of times we'll say like, oh, it's the process and whatnot and don't get caught up in the

result, but then they coach differently. And the play callers that, uh, that kind of take their own advice and just call plays per the process rather than just the result. And that's a really fine mind because it's a result based business. But call plays as part of the process rather than the result. I think those two things stand out as guys that can have success early. Okay, so last year, obviously, there were a lot of recordbacks. There were five in the first round. Baker lights it up early, and then it's a mixed bag from basically everybody else. If there's a second year guy, you're looking at as a breakout candidate, who are you circling?

All right, take Baker off the table because everyone expects him to play. Yeah, everyone expects him to play really well. You know, I would say Sam Darnold. last year was such a unique year for him and he dealt with some injury. He now has a better offensive line. He now has obviously Lay Beyond being there, but really

the big guy for me is Jameson Crowder because as a quarterback, man, to have a guy that could win in man coverage and understand where to be in zone is a big deal and that's Crowder. Sam didn't have that last year.

So if those guys can stay healthy, and be the performers that they've kind of been, that's a really big deal for Sam Donald and his kind of growth this year. Now, there's Adam Gase. You know, Adam Gase hasn't had a top 20 offense outside of Peyton Manning as his quarterback. So I still have to see that happen.

But I'd say Sam Darnold strictly because health and having a second year in the NFL, I will say this. A guy that I was critical of, Josh Allen, showed some really, you know, interesting things last year. And Brian Dable is a guy that I do believe has some really cool creativity there, but I still got to see Josh have planned at the line of scrimmage for bad stuff happening.

I didn't see that last year. So that's why I'll go with Donald. All right. All right. As you look at the league right now and you see so many of these creative offenses, which is the one and which is the play caller and just offensive mind you would want to play for the most? Which scheme would you want to be in right now? Oh, you guys know that answer, Sean McVeigh.

Okay. I mean, Sean McVeigh strictly because there's, and I say this not to knock anybody, but man, he makes it easy on quarterbacks at times. Like you can make some, there's some chunk throws there that guys are relatively open. It also, because I know Sean, and the just the fearlessness that he coaches with, the encouragement that he coaches with, you always feel like things are good, good things are going to happen.

But schematically, just he very rarely asks you to just drop back and play football. There's always a rhyme or reason. There's always a next step, thought in his mind of, hey, we'll come back to this in the third quarter or the fourth quarter and we'll get him on this.

So just the freedom that I believe he allows golf to play with, I would love to just have that as a as a player. So if Sean's off the table, who would it be? Because we probably should have known that. That's not me. I love it.

Probably Andy Reid. You know, Andy's right now, Andy is as, they're Andy Reid or Matt Nagy. I really believe that. These guys are as creative as outside of the box thinking as, hey, let's get all these different people moving before the snap and giving our quarterback a lot of options to go with the football. but making it very clear.

Also, at the same time, it's not gray. It's black and white with flashes of color. I would say Andy Reid. Awesome. Well, Dan, that's all we got for you. We sincerely appreciate the time. It's always great to have you on. So thank you, as always,

and let's not have too much time to go by before we do it again. Yeah, for sure. Appreciate you guys. Good to be on. Thanks, Dan. Later, bud. All right, guys. As always, thank you so much for listening.

We will be back soon with our next big picture topic. Thanks a lot for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network.