The Ringer NFL Show - Reaction to Washington's Hearing, and Top 5 RBs and TEs

Episode Date: June 22, 2022

Kevin, Ben, and Nora react to the news of today’s congressional hearing on the Washington Commanders and Roger Goodell’s testimony. They follow up by listing their top five running backs and tight ends going into the 2022-23 season. Host: Kevin Clark, Ben Solak, and Nora Princiotti Associate Producer: Stefan Anderson Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Joanna, do you ever wish you could definitively prove that you have the right opinions about movies? Uh, yeah, Neil, because I do have the right opinions about movies and television, right, Dave? No, because I'm more right about those things, and I demand trial by content. Oh, boy, what is trial by content? Each week, we'll take on a huge question. Each of us will bring a choice and combine with listener submissions and your votes, we will come to a decision. It's trial by content every Tuesday on Spotify, the ringer.com, wherever you're listening right now. Don't let Neil win.

Don't let Dave win. It is the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer podcast Network. I am Kevin Clark joined on a rainy Wednesday by Nora. Nora, Nora, hello. Hey, Kev. You don't have to sound so excited about it. Am I, what am I, what about, was I sad about just introducing the show or just what? It's okay.

It's sad boy summer. You're on theater. It's kind of a gross day. And we have a bunch of gross topic to talk about. We just went through, we went through congressional hearings. I just went through a tour and I want to say hello to Ben Zolak. Hello, Ben. Out of Cove. Give it rolling.

I was trying to find the hearings on TV and I went through cable. Is television okay? Like, there's so many things on. I kind of feel like kind of random midday shows have been hurt by streaming.

Like, there's some weird stuff on now at like 11 a.m. on cable. Like, first of all, Steve Wilco's show is still around. The former Jerry Springer Security Guard show. Watch about a couple minutes of that. Didn't really get it. There were three C-SPans. None of them including a channel that is

devoted entirely on my cable to hearings, and it was a different hearing that was on. It got bumped. It got bumped to whatever the version of C-SPAN Plus is. It wasn't even on. So, anyway, that's my tour through cable television.

What's going on, buddy? I'm just Googling the old man yells at Cloud meme and trying to figure out the best way to hit you with it. I just said it's the exact opposite. It's just the exact opposite, which is I'm so modern. I never have to fucking go through this stuff. And now I did. In that you've had a single thought about cable recently,

your old man yells at cloud status. Can't tell you last time I thought about cable. Do you not have cable? Nope. What do you do about sports on television? Hulu has live sports. Do you not watch commercials? Hulu has live sports to say 10,000.

what? I'm not even going to get, I'm not even going to get that. I honestly not even getting into that. Like that's tried and failed on many different, on many different streaming services. Cable is quietly the best option. All right. Every time I get one of those services, it ends up being more than cable. Because I'm like, I need to get this channel to watch this obscure sport and all of a sudden, you've lost money on the deal. So that's my take. That's my old man, Yel is a cloud. All right. I'm sending the tweet. All right. So let's, all right, we're going to do best tight ends and running backs on this show.

Next week, we have something really cool, which is we're going to do past catchers, best pass catchers. Best pass catch. Best receivers in the NFL. We're going to do receivers this week. And we're delaying it to next week because joining us on the receiver pod to break down his top receivers is going to be Justin Jefferson, who I presume is going to be on our list. It'd be very funny, Ben Zolak, if we shared our list and just none of them, none of them, none of them. included Justin Jefferson. Yeah, I'll be honest.

I will be cooking the books to make sure that Justin Jefferson is at a good spot on that list. Beak pie in the curtain here, how the sausage is made. When there's a receiver on the pot where we rank receivers, I rank that receiver highly.

What a way in for different receivers now going forward to know that they can just book themselves on the show. Alan Lazard comes on next year's show. I'm like, buddy, you know who's an underrated receiver? Sneaky top 10 guy. Dude, what if Alan Lazard like makes the leap this year. That could be

possible. Huge for you. Big prediction. First guy in on the Allen Lazard train roller coaster elevator. All right. So let's get to the hearings today before we get into the rankings of the players. The news

is that Representative Maloney issued a subpoena for Daniel Snyder next week. We'll see that develops. Roger Goodell testified remotely to day. Dan Snyder was in France on a boat during all of this. On business. On business. On business. Which shows you he just does not care about the optics of this. So we'll see what happens next week. Goodell and the NFL will not be releasing any further written report.

As we know, looking into the toxic workplace investigation and the harassment investigation, they released a summary, not the report. We've covered that on, in previous podcast. The NFL will not be any more forthcoming. The NFL, Gaddell said there won't be any further punishment. He said, this is correct.

He does not have the capacity to remove Snyder because the representatives kept asking him if they would. That's not how that works. Owners who have to vote, they have to have, I think, 24 ownership votes in order for that to happen.

And then there were all sorts of weird questions. Lots of representatives said this was a waste of time, et cetera, et cetera. It was a bit of a slog, to be honest. So some news that did come out of it was there were some findings in the House investigation that Snyder conducted a

quote shadow investigation of some of the allegations and that his legal team used private investigators to harass and intimidate witnesses created a hundred page dossier to target victims witnesses and journalists who had shared credible public accusations of harassment this according to the new york times. Nora, you saw this today. You thought what? Well, I think we should just underline the point that they, the House Oversight is planning to use their subpoena power to subpoena Dan Snyder, which is fairly rare, even though that committee does obviously have subpoena power as one of the few that does. They usually don't use it. So that that's fairly significant that they're going there in this case. I think a lot of the other stuff, frankly, doesn't matter. I think. I think,

think you see through events like this that there are a lot of Congress people well-meaning and otherwise who just don't really know how the NFL works. So they ask questions that don't make sense. There's a lot of grandstanding on a lot of different sides. But a subpoena is one of the few things that can at least literally or figuratively get Dan off the boat. So it seems like that's happening. And that's probably one of the few sort of measures of, you think we're until he's zooming in from a boat. I know. And then the other thing was that,

now, don't get me wrong, I don't think Dan's doing a lot of work on the boat, but there was a little bit of a contradiction and kind in that. Roger Goodell was testifying that he's been removed from day-to-day operations with the team. And then Snyder's people said that he couldn't cooperate with the day that he'd been asked to show up

because he was away on commanders-related business. something's got to give there, but I suppose international waters are what they are. Ben, what do you think? Yeah, I agree in the sense that watching the stream of the hearing and the questioning was like, all right, there's nothing here for my purposes in terms of understanding what's going to happen to Dan Snyder,

understanding if anything new is going to come out about Dan Snyder during this hearing. It was the report that came out beforehand that I think was actually interesting. The shadow investigation stuff, while not surprising and groundbreaking, is still notable, right? In the report released by the committee, they say that because the NFL and Snyder entered into this common interest agreement where Snyder gets to be updated on the results of the Wilkins investigation, upwards of 40,000 documents from the Wilkins investigative file have just not been supplied to Congress. the NFL's withholding them because the commanders claimed

have privilege over the documents. I'm saying a bunch of words I don't really know what they mean. Like, I don't know how legally or judiciously like verify what these claims are. But it feels pretty important to me that there's 40,000 investigative documents that are not appearing in front of Congress because Washington and particularly Snyder has the ability to make comments and provide direction

for the investigation of his own team. And so while like, again, like nothing there, I think is like groundbreaking in its newness, it is important to note like there were new accusations that came to light. There were new things like, you know, we learned that in 2009 Snyder was responsible for

revealing to the lead that he had a sexual assault accusation for a 2008 rule and he did it. Came out on the Washington Post Tuesday night. Yeah, so these state like even though they continue to kind of land on a pile, we should not say, all right, well, they're just on the pile and then mentally move forward.

Like the continued discovery and and like it's minute newness, but it's still newness, and it still matters and still needs to be understood and heard as adding to what's an extremely large and terrifying sequence of events for Washington. Which is again why the subpoena power is sort of the essential piece, because if there's 40,000 pieces of paper in a box somewhere up to this point, all that's really been happening, and this is how it works, is that Congress is saying we would like you to give us those,

and the commanders are saying, we would rather not. No, thank you. We don't have to. And until a capital S subpoena comes into the picture, like, that's how that goes. So there's obviously some politicking that is probably still left to do in terms of how much muscle they're going to be willing to use on this case. But that can substantially move this forward. And it does seem like there's just stuff out there that, we don't know what's there. And maybe there's a chance that we will end up finding out. I don't know.

But that's the progress of some kind. The biggest thing I think that's going to come out of this is Roger Goodell said that he does not recall Snyder informing him of that 2009 accusation and the subsequent investigation payout all that stuff that that Washington Post reported on Tuesday night. Lindsay Jones from the Athletics said that 2008 personal conduct policy. required teams to inform the league of any such allegations. So there you go. I don't see any value that keeping and standing by Daniel Snyder brings to the league. And when I saw that Roger Goodell, even seeing him today sitting there on the Zoom while Daniel Snyder's in France, like, that's what his job is.

That's why he makes $40 million a year is to take bullets for owner. and stand there on virtually on Capitol Hill and get yelled at by Jim Jordan while Snyder sneaks out the back door. But we're getting to a point where Dana Snyder bought the team in 1999 and there's a whole generation. I barely remember that Washington was a crown jewel franchise.

A crown jewel franchise of the league. They'd won Super Bowls in the 90s. They'd had Joe Gibbs. They'd have been, you know, some of the best built teams of their generation, huge fan base, national fan base. I mean, I just, there's an older generation in the South when there were no teams in North Carolina,

certainly Virginia, obviously, that goes out saying. South Carolina, even Georgia, depending how old you are, like Washington was the team, was a national fan base. And Snyder has not only wrecked that, he's wrecked to beyond all recognition. And the longer he stays there, the more damage it does, not just to that particular brand, but to the league as a whole.

And Roger Gale talks about protecting the shield. Like this is actively damaging. And now they're talking about a new stadium. Nobody wants to get politically aligned with Daniel Snyder. And it's only, they're going to take some terrible deal. They're going to move an hour away in Virginia. There's going to be a point. The latest thing I saw was that basically, I mean,

with traffic might be even further, but you're looking at being equidistant with the Ravens from Washington. in D.C. if that new stadium of one of the stadium proposals goes through. And if you're growing up in D.C. right now, what is the point of being a commander's fan? And what is the point if you're Virginia and even taking the commanders,

which is a politically toxic brand? And I don't think I think we're about done here, frankly. And it's very, very strange. If all of this stuff, I think the biggest thing over the past year that's come out about Snyder from a

getting 24, owners to vote against him owning the team anymore perspective is the ticket scandal and some of the business practices they've done taking money from other owners is probably unfortunately for us the red line like we probably think there's some moral things that would be the red line that's that's just not true um but the business practices is a sort of red line within that that room um when all 331 owners are together um plus the packers and so i don't know where this goes but if if if danel sniders owns the team in three years. I wouldn't be surprised. That's how cynical I am about this whole thing, but I would be disgusted. I do. I agree with the point that we would like for there to be a moral red line,

at which point 24 of 32 owners say, well, now Dan Snyder is gone. And the reality is that there is a business red line, at which point 2432 NFL owners would say Dan Snyder is gone. With that said, I do think that there is value in terms of the future of the league, in terms of the future of how sexual harassment is handled within team organizations and team building. if Dan Slander is removed and all of this sexual harassment stuff over the past decade plus, over the past 15 years, all of these accusations, all of all of the cover-ups, all of the little, you know, concessions and turning a blind eyes, if all of those come out and then dance-lider is removed,

even if for a separate reason, I do think it is to the benefit of the league that all of that is, is revealed, it is discussed publicly, as discussed as clearly as we can. can while respecting victims and respecting their anonymity, such that in the future, when these sorts of things are inevitably and disappointingly happening again in team buildings and happening again in a very male-dominated field, there is a case to point to to say, this is what happened in Washington, and he was removed. And yes, it had a lot to do with tickets. Yes, it had a lot to do business. But it also definitely had something to do with the black market that put on the league, with the horrible actions of this one man, and the way that it trickled down through an entire

organization. I do think there is value in that. So even if we don't get there the way that we should get there from a moral perspective, the result has benefit to it when you look forward in terms of future league decisions of future league, you know, catastrophe. Yeah, I'm really glad you said that then. Just because I think, and like the league has given us plenty of reason to think this way, but there's this real sense of sort of defeatism of, well, they're all borderline evil and they're never going to do anything for sort of a public good and the only thing that's ever going to matter are business interests and the league is essentially amoral and doesn't care and nobody cares unless it directly affects their bottom line and that's the only way that

anything is going to change. There may be a lot of truth in that. But at a certain point, if there's no even like compelling argument that there are people trying to make the league better. I've got to think that it's at some point, at some point, maybe even if that point is sort of invisible as we look at the horizon right now, at some point that turns people off.

At some point people are just like, no. Like, I love the game, but it's not worth it. I'm as cynical as you could possibly be about this. Like that's the point I'm at right now. And I don't, do you mean like fans would be turned off by it? Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, like, I think that, I think that part of this, I mean, there were similar things like the Ray Rice scandal, which again, that keeps coming up because part of the, um, anytime Roger Goodell and the, Roger Goal doesn't directly handle punishments anymore. But anytime you're talking about league discipline with anything, you're talking about Ray Rice because that was sort of the informing thing. They made changes after that, et cetera, et cetera. Um, but like the whole thing there was, okay, this, this might turn fans off. you know, it's become a national story, all that stuff. And I think ratings went up, like, that week and never went down. And, like, a year later was the high mark of the entire league. I think that the most watched AFC championship or championship game ever,

non-super Bowl game ever was, I think, the following year. And I think the NFL, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying the NFL can take a posture of nothing we've ever done has ever affected anything, frankly. Like, we're a compelling TV product and that's all that matters. And I think that somehow, that is how you get the attitude that currently exists in the league. And I think where you're right is that that is the attitude that exists. I do think like, I'm just thinking about everybody.

Everyone I know, like friends, younger siblings, everyone I know under like 20 or so. And they just do not care about sports in the same way. They do not think of it as like a thing that is so indispensable and will always be a part of their lives. There are too many things that are available to them for entertainment. And they have a specific sort of value around things that are supposedly good. And now that can be shaky, right? And people change. But I just, the NFL has been incredibly adept and incredibly consistent at being in some ways,

like this last bastion of true monoculture. But being the last woolly mammoth that's held on for the longest, longest time, like at some point that still means that you're in danger. I don't think there is any evidence of that right now. But at some point for everything that suffered that way, there was a point where it seemed like it couldn't happen. So I just am sort of in a long-winded way, reiterating Ben's point where I think it is valuable to not just completely be like,

it's never happened before, so it could never happen. I agree. Unfortunately, we're dealing with the same allegation we dealt with last year, which the NFL just didn't want to deal with and gave a fake suspension for.

Snyder was at every game wearing sweatpants and acting like an idiot the entire season. You know, like that. And Goodell said, again, there wouldn't be further punishment. So, like, I'm cynical because the NFL, in this particular situation, has given us every reason to be cynical.

All right. Let's do, so we're going to do best tight ends, best running backs. I'm excited about this one. Let's start with tight ends. Ben, why don't you give five through three and we'll go from there. Five through three, okay. For me, the top four tight ends are extremely clear. The order is a little bit discombobulated.

Five was the most difficult decision I had to make. I put Dallas Goddard here, the tight end out of Philadelphia. I knew you would do this. And the reason is because go birds. No, the reason is, is for a couple. Number one, it is something I talked about a lot last year we did these offseason pods. I like to see things over time. And for as good as Kyle Pitts, the tight end out of Atlanta was last season.

For as record setting of the rookie as he has, for as much of a unicorn as I believe him to be, I would like to see him full on dominate for a whole season. And Kyle Pitts was tremendous last year. But you know who led the league in yards per route run from the tight end position this past season? Dallas Goddard, baby, from Philadelphia Eagles. And on top of being a very good receiving tight end, who works the middle of the field in an excellent way. And he's very different from pits.

Pits is all vertical pits. It's all downfield. He has to catch. Goddard's going to be working that middle of field. He's going to be working, breaking routes. On top of being tough as nails and making some difficult catches, even though he has a couple of drops, on top of being able to break that first tackle because he's a big guy

and he has more explosiveness than people realize. Goddard is actually a why, right? Goddard lines up in line on 47.3% of his. snaps plays, right about 50%. That puts him in the Darren Waller, George Kittle group instead of the Kelsey, Mark Andrews, and Kyle Pitts group. All of those guys are 27% or lower.

And so Goddard is a Y. The Eagles running game, which is one of the best in the league, most varied in the league, an incredible offensive line. One of the straws that stirs that drink is Salis Goddard, is the fact that they can put him on the field, line him up out wide, and then all a sudden go hurry up, attach him to a tackle and expect him to win against an edge 101. He is that caliber blocker. We're like, he's going to lose to Joey Bosa.

You know what I mean? He's going to lose to a boss or lose to Garrett. But he can handle some solid starting edges. Like him against DeMarcus Lawrence has always been so fun to watch over the years in the running game. And so a little bit because I like to see it over time, a little bit because I'm a football nerd and I appreciate a tight end who, you know, kind of does the job the old-fashioned way and a little bit because he goes birds. Dallas Godder is five for me.

That then puts Mark Andrews at four. Lovely, lovely player. I hate that somebody in this top group had to be fourth, but I put him at fourth. and I have George Kittle at third. Nora? So I had Kyle Pitts at 5 and was went with the flip side of Ben's argument and ultimately

absolutely love Dallas Goddard, love what he can do as in-line guy, I work in-the middle of the field. I am sacrificing a little bit of consistency and being able to see it over time for just saying 6-6-2-40 and you're not really worried at all about him matching up

against an outside corner, like, enough said, I'm taking it. I think either is a totally valid argument. Pitts is just a little bit more my style. I had Darren Waller as number four for me. Just taken ginormous ex-receiver, essentially. Injuries, obviously last year, not great, but when he's healthy, maybe the most physical and explosive capabilities on my list. And then I had Mark Andrews at three.

And maybe that, my three and four, there's a little bit of recency bias because Andrews was just so good in 2021. But super reliable, incredible hands, great ball skills. Ravens really need that. Really good blocker. He's the guy you want going over the middle in traffic. In terms of the sort of big slot guy who can still create explosives, love what he can do. So that's my five through three. then let me ask you a question because i had

pits on my list i did not have um you i didn't i didn't i didn't have your go bird slant on my list um i have a couple questions so first of all part of this to me and i get what you're saying because there were times i mean kyle pits played like an ex last year and you look at some of the numbers uh connor mciston from pf put some interesting numbers up there about um pits against press coverage where he's basically playing cornerback and he's one of the most productive players in the NFL in that situation He was fourth in yards per route run

when playing against press coverage. And that's special. A.J. Brown is first, Tower Lockett, his second. Justin Jefferson is third. To give you an idea, Cooper Cup and Jemar Chase are behind Kyle Pitts. So to me, this is almost like positionless basketball, right? So here's my question.

If you were a GM and you were starting a team in an expansion draft, would you rather have your guy or would you rather have Kyle Pitts? I have written down in my notes when Kevin asks me about starting a franchise. Because it's what you always do when we do these. No, because the questions are different. It's who's best versus who am I building around the next few years.

That's not, but it's not a question because I think you're saying that... The question is not a question, Ben. No. Don't you see? It's the same thing. Like, it's Goddard is more of a tight end than Kyle Pitts. So I guess we're getting into like, you mentioned it.

You like the in line lining up, toughest nails, all that stuff. I think, frankly, the thing to, if you're going to criticize Pitts for anything, he had one of the worst run blocking grades in football last year. I'm not going to freak out and not pick him over that. I think he has a 55 grade. That was pretty bad.

But there's a bunch of guys. Micah Secki was bad. Earths last year didn't have a good. Yeah, I'm Eric Eber and Noah fan. All those guys are kind of near the bottom. going to not start a franchise with those guys if I had my, Johnny Smith right down there. There's a lot of guys down there

who didn't have a great running blocker. I love playing the let's name some bad run blockers game. You should have a few shamed. Kyle Pence over Dallas got her because Zach Erz wasn't good at run blocking. Because Johnny Smith had a really bad was one of the worst run blockers in the tight time position last year. But no,

I'm going with the sort of future positionless sport here. And that's why I want Kyle Pitts on my list over Dallas got it. They're both great players. I'm just saying that that's what we're arguing there's only one, there's only going to be one player that's on my list,

not on yours and vice versa. And so arguing each other's why each other's angle, what angle each other has is probably important. Yeah. So right, if you gave me a blank rostersy and told me to start grabbing players across the league, wouldn't take me long, get a quarterback, get a corner, get an edge,

and then I go grab Kyle Pitts. because Kyle Pitts is a uniform, right? That's the word that we said. They don't make him like Kyle Pitts. I don't think we're going to see another. He's not going to come to your franchise because you don't have him in the top five. He's going to go, is this the guy? Yeah.

But when I bring in Kyle Pitts, I'm going to bring him in to do that which the Falcons asked him to do. Yes. To align out wide more than almost any other tight end. To play down the field, he had an A.D. of 11.2, highest of any tight end last year. To win, you talked about the press, to win in the air against tight coverage. He had 33 contestant.

targets last year the most of any tight end. So what he's going, what he does, or at least what he did last year, dictates a certain role on a team that is different than the one that Dallas Goddard dictates. When we talk about building out a team, I say, all right, I don't have a gotter in the building, cool, whatever. I'll go get Kyle Pitts. He'll be my tight end, but really he's my ex-receiver and then I'll build it from there.

It's different than Waller, too. This is critical to note. Waller lines up in line, 45, 50% of the snaps. It is different than Kelsey. Kelsey's in the slot 40% of the snaps. We don't see a tight end. in the league, used like Pitts as effectively as Pitts is. Period.

So, Unicorn. Who is the best tight end right now? Well, grading for all of the various things that tight end can do, I think that Goddard is like probably better. But at the same time, I fully expect next year when I'm making this list for Pitts to be in the top five. So I fully expect him to have a tremendous, beautiful, incredible season that puts him in undeniably the top tier. As of right now, this is a better player. In terms of what they do on the field, what they're asked to do when they do it, that was got.

Two questions. So one, you're actually a question in a statement. First, the question. When you say that if you look at it holistically, Goddard is a little better, does that mean, is that the same statement as saying what he does is more valuable? No.

What it is is saying that like when I watch Dallas Goddard play and the amount that he has asked to run block, the and then the routes that he runs, the targets that he gets and what he does with them, I think that he is better at. He performs better. Yeah, performs better,

right, then what you're getting from Kyle Pitts because Kyle Pitts is, as a young player who is still growing in some things. You've got to remember that Kyle Pitts, for the first half of the season wasn't really, like, taken off yet at that point. He's still growing into his role.

That's what makes, like, like ranking the running backs is a freaking nightmare because there's 98,000 good ones. And if we're grading best, to me, we're creating performance. That's splitting hairs. here's the statement. The way that we really solve this

is that we extend invitations to both of them to come on the ring or NFL show. That's right. And whoever comes first is the better tie-down. Yeah. Only one way out of this. The thing I always go back to with Pits, something Daniel and Jeremiah,

our buddy said before the draft last year, which is some teams view them as a receiver, but even if they view them as a receiver, just draft him and make him a good receiver. Like, he can just do anything. So it's a bit of a, like, there are probably teams that we're probably like, I don't care, don't run block. You don't have to ever.

And he doesn't. He doesn't. There could be a situation when the Falcons is like, you know what? He's blocked the thing. Fine. And if he doesn't get better. By the way, he probably will get better at it because he's a damn rookie. The Falcons also last year had Lee Smith, who is the poster child for.

Would you like a sixth offensive tackle on the field? Yes. May I interest you in a Lee Smith? And so, right, it is perfectly intuitive. it is however for the ranking of tight ends in a vacuum puts him at six but like honestly I don't care put pits at five like it's they're both wonderful

wonderful players wait a second wait a second you just did it I don't care after a 10 minute argument yes because I knew we were going to get into this and it's like I still don't know what I'm going to save my fifth running back I have three names down I just they're all good stop everybody's beautiful you're all perfect in your own special ways expand the lists. Don't make me sticking five.

All right. I'm going to go through the rest of my list, Darren Waller. It's obviously number four. Mark Andrews, by the way, fourth best, Mark Andrews, fourth best run blocking grade in the NFL. Most targets and receptions of over 20 yards, we kind of know what that offense looks like.

Mark Andrews is super duper valuable. He's my number three. All right, let's do two and one. Nora start us off. I have this I really I really wanted to be subversive here and then I just like couldn't pull it up. Number two, I had Dallas Carter. Dallas Carter. Actually, I have Dallas Carter as number two and number one.

In my, like, I really, really, really wanted to rake George Kittle first. I wanted to do it so badly. This is exactly how I felt about Kelsey at one and my number two, which was Waller. I very much wanted to knock Kelsey not on the spot, but I didn't have the gutter. I want, he's so, he's just too, I'm talking about Kelsey now. The best pure receiving tight end on this list, he is lapping anybody else here in production over the last four years. PFF says he's got 274 first downs or touchdowns, which is 86 more than anybody else. I tried to make this argument about, oh, he gets a ton of single coverage.

Maybe that's going to change without Tyreek Hill. Kittles a better blocker. he might be a little bit better in space. He's 28 versus 33. And then I just was like, who am I kidding? I can't do this. So I threw my hands up, accepted defeat, put George Kittle at a very respectable number two

and ranked Travis Kelsey number one. Yep, I'm with you. I got that same two and one. George Kittle, we know what he is. One of the best tackle breakers in modern football history. loves to block laughs maniacally top 10 run blocker in this league Travis Kelsey though it's just a different sport like last year part of this was health so

it's interesting because Travis Kelsey led the NFL in yards per catch by almost 200 yards at the tight end position but George Kittle actually per catch had more it's just that Travis Kelsey had more yards more receptions and just just played more and so and this is also kind of a bit of a, even though he is the best tight end of football, and we saw that, we saw his ability with Mahomes, the ability to turn around that Buffalo game so quickly.

But it also is still kind of a lifetime achievement award. Like if Kittle was still doing this in five years, I'll rank him above somebody too. So, yeah, I mean, that's just where I'm at. I mean, you can, as we talked about, the top four tight ends in football are kind of interchangeable. You'd all take them on your franchise. I presumably Ben Soak would take all four of them on his franchise. were starting it tomorrow. But I just think Travis Kells is the best in the game.

So like, what do you got? I'd probably take Pitts over all four of them. We really want to have that conversation again. But. Well, for right now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So I have Waller at two. I've always been a massive Darren Waller fan. Waller gives you a lot of what Pitts gives you in terms of the downfield in terms of the vertical winning at the X, winning the contested balls, winning against press. But he also can line up in line. Like I said, he spent 45, 50% of his snaps in line.

He is a very functional blocker, which the, as, as Nor alluded to earlier, the multiplicity that gives you from a scheme perspective, the way that that allows you to do hurry up, no-haddle stop to hide intentions is to be really, really valuable. But I left Waller at two and I put Kelsey at one. With that set, I spent a lot of time last year,

especially when the Chief's offense was a little bit stuck on idle in the middle of the season, asking for more of Travis Kelsey. They were running into an issue where they just needed a guy to beat a press coverage one-on-one situation, and they continued to look at Kelsey, and Kelsey wasn't really delivering for them. He picked things up in the playoffs.

And that's wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. But we do need to start asking if the 33-year-old is going to begin consistently doing that, where the regular week 9, week 10 is not going to mean the same thing to him as week 19 and week 20. Travis Kelsey last year had 1.9 2 yards per route run. That's his lowest number since 2015. His ADOT was 7.6, which is lowest number since 2016.

Some of that is because of where they are now aligning Kelsey. Kelsey was in the slot for 45% of his snaps, which is the most since 2017. His out wide alignment was the lowest in three seasons. His in-line alignment was the lowest ever. They are taking Kelsey and making him a bit more of a possession player, a bit more of a big slap player, which just brings down his explosives and means that he, I think, becomes a little bit less of the receiving credits. So high volume, still 1,000 yards, six straight seasons incredible, but a little bit less like the holy smokes big play going to destroy the world, sort of threat that he was. We will see what happens now that there's no Tyree.

But I will say that age is a cliff. It's not a gradual decline. It hits and you're down. And I'm worried that we started to see the beginning of the tale for Travis Felston. So still number one. But last season was certainly not his best season. He's worth monitoring as we as we go into this now, Tyreek Hillless future for the Chiefs. Sure. Hish or what he thinks about cable. He's old. That's what I'm saying. Kevin knows how he feels about the magic. That's all I talked about.

on the Newsday. We talked about many things, but yes, we did. We did take a detour about 2009 Eastern Conference finals, and it was very special. December 16th and onwards

for Travis Kelly. No, but getting out of that rut. 191 yards against the Chargers, doesn't play against Pittsburgh. Touchdown, touchdowns the next two weeks. So four touchdowns

in his last three games to end the season. A touchdown in each of the playoff games they played and over 95 yards to each of those, including 108 in the first. one. So if that's, if that's him getting like, I, I, if that's his floor, I'm, I'm good with

that. Are you saying that there's going to be decline further this year? Because I, I think without, without Tyreek, I agree with you. We have to see, but I, I think we could see, a little more eating, frankly. I think every team that is preparing to play the Chiefs in 2022, we'll watch them in 2021. And if they watch the breadth of the film, not just the best galaxy games at all, the Kelsey games. They'll say, let's get our biggest guy and shove him a lot and see if he's going to continue to deal with that. Because if Kelsey only turns on the answers, he only turns on the full effort, full physicality for that sort of coverage against like, you know, the chargers, the bills, the Patriots, and everybody they've seen the playoffs, that's fine. That's okay.

A lot of players have done that in their 30s. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just worth noting we go to rank tight ends. That's going to affect kind of where he sits. If he becomes a little bit more of a postseason than he has a regular season player. I'm okay with that fate. Really good postseason player, brother. We're going to win ourselves in January games. He just becomes the Robert Ory of tight ends. Just shows up every January and says, stick with me.

By the way, Rob Mankowski, quote-unquote, retired yesterday. And then Drew Rosenhouse within five minutes was like, uh, if Tom Brady calls. Talk about a post-season player, maybe. Maybe like in 2025, they're just going to be tight ends, just showing up for January. I too would like to retire from training camp. I don't, as was pointed out, so like, Rosenhouse makes a statement.

And then I say, okay, well, he must be retired from training camp. And people were like, well, yes, but he didn't have to announce that he's retired. No one was asking him to show up for training camp. So I don't really know what the announcement is for. I mean, like, we went from Robert Kovsky's retired for a year to Robert Kovsky's retired for three minutes. Like, that's what happened. Tough one. I think he's a little more.

tired than that, actually. I'm making jokes. But... But why would Rosenau say that? Because he likes to... Because it's fun. Yeah, about to say, yeah. And just like, genuinely, like, you sort of never know, but at some point, his body just is done. Listen, there are many of social engagement, which I know I'm not going to that social

engagement for days before I fully commit that I'm not going to that social engagement. Because it's fun to be like, yeah, no, if I have, yeah, for sure. If I have time, I'm not sure, I might be busy. Yeah, so it's great. Yeah, exactly. Drew Rosenhaus, just given the soft no. What percentage of social engagements do you show up for then? Pre-marriage, 35.

Post-marriage? Not as easy as it once was. So it wasn't high hit rate going into the marriage? Yes, not as easy to cancel as it once was. Got it. I'm a homebody. I like to, I love. As John Mullady once said, canceling plans is like crack cocaine.

Oh, baby. feels great. Love that. All right. Should we get to the running back? Should we get to Ben listing three at number five for the running backs? No, somebody else is to go first.

Is Miles Sanders one of them? Absolutely not. Okay. I'm just making sure this didn't become... I'm just making sure... I didn't know how far the Go Birds agenda goes. I would like to not go first.

I like for somebody else. No, I'm about to tee up Nora. I'm just... I wanted to see you squirm. Um, Nora, number five. Let's do, let's do the, uh, actually, I don't know how to do this. I'm like, do we all agree, do we think we all have the same like five through two? Is it, is it going to be chaos?

I have no idea. I thought very good about one through three and then was just like, oh, God. I agree with Nora. One through three, I think is clear. One is clear. Can I give you my, can I give you four and five in that order because it's helpful to explain the thought process? Yes. All right.

So I had my top three and then there were like 900 running back so I felt could have married its election. I kind of narrowed it down and I was working with Dalvin Cook and Christian McCaffrey. And I was trying to figure out who's going

for and who's going five. And I ended up putting Dalvin Cook at number four. Frankly, because I am less just less concerned about injuries. I think if he is healthy and you are running a zone scheme, which I expect that offense to be doing. He's one of the best running backs you can have for that offense,

and the concern for injury is just not quite as big as it is for McCaffrey, who I think at full health is arguably the best three down back in the NFL, but we have not seen that in over two years. And in any sort of full-throated way, it is very hard for me to predict that he would be available for an entire season. So that was how I worked through four and five. But it really, like, those were the two of both categories here where I was just like, eh?

Yeah. I think so. And didn't have quite as much conviction behind it. So tell me if you guys agree. Christian McCaffrey has worked his way off my list due to inactivity. Fantasy on your list? Christian McCaffrey has worked his way off of my list due to inactivity. Due to inactivity.

Yeah, I'd like, when I went, like, I made that, that third tier. Because me, the top two are a clear tier and then there's a second tier and then there's that third tier. It was like, guys who miss. I was like, all right. McCaffrey, Barclay, hmm, Zeeke, whoever you want, man. Just anybody that anybody might be, anybody might be mad at for me not having. Throw them in there, baby. The jersey sales guys?

Just like guys who, like super famous, but not actually you want to, I mean, Zika, I'd take on my team. I also have Dalvin Cooket for it for. and I'm extremely happy. Cook obviously has the injury history that is concerning. I would say expecting Dalvin Cook to play 17 games. It's silly. I would say he's a 14 game of a season player probably in terms of like your average expectation.

And that's tough. They have a nice back of them as opposed to Christian McAvery, who is a four game of season player. With that said, Dalvin Cook, he's such a good runner. He's delightful. just a delightful athlete, a delightful mind, wonderful creating explosives.

Last season, 10 plus yard runs. Taylor leads the league with 50, Chub at 41, and then Dalvin Cook is third at 36, 20 plus yard runs. Taylor has 14, Nick Chubb is 12, Rashad Penny is 11, and then Dalvin Cook has 9. Don't ask me about the Rashad Penny season. I refuse to answer any questions about the Rashad Penny season.

Cook's ability to create explosives in an offense that uses that running game to set up the explosive passing game, right? The whole point is like, let's chunk, let's chunk, let's chunk, let's chunk, and then him with the explosive. The fact that Cook can buy them explosives in the running game as well is is a testament to just how talented he is. And a lot of these outside zone teams have a really good offensive line. The Vikings have a fine, okay offensive line.

Cook still does so, so much work behind them. I think Cook deserves before in that regard. My five, the names that I have down are Aaron Jones, slash Joe Mixen slash Austin Escher slash IDK I would Yes

The player that when I think about them Just in a vacuum That I think is the most talented Is Aaron Jones I watched more Joe Mixin today Because I felt like I was too low on Joe Mixin And really I think he's just Super Rock Solid

But I think Jones is better in past protection Which he's worked on a lot Over the course of the time in the league And I think he's a little bit better As a receiver as well Aaron Jones numbers without Devante Adams. Really, really exciting to see what he could be in the receiving game with Devante

Adams gone. This is from RotoViz. Eight games since 2017 without Devante Adams. He averages 4.5 catches as opposed to 2.5 with him on the field. He averages 48.5 receiving yards as opposed to 17.8 with him on the field, especially with Dylan behind him as well as kind of their bruiser and their enforcer between the tackles. I would not be surprised to see Jones take on a dual threat back load, similar to what Austin Eckler eyes, similar to what we've seen like Prime Camara in New Orleans,

and deliver on that with really, really, really high efficacy. He's also delightful Red Zone, target and runner as well, because he leaves no meat on the bone. He regularly breaks the first tackle, finishes through contact, unbelievable balance. You could have a mix here. You could have an echo here. I wouldn't take a single grain against you. But for my predilections and players I like, I think Aaron Jones, really, really good, deserves me on top five. So your, Jones is your pick. Jones is fifth.

Okay. So I had all three of those guys in my mix. I wasn't shameless enough to rank them all at five and then do a soliloquy on each of them. But I did a soliloquy on one of them. I heard three soliloquies in there. I actually chose Eckler. 647 receiving guards last year. You know, the NFL by nearly 100 guards. Shout out Cordero Patterson, who was number two in that department, our guy. Anybody, I kind of wanted to throw them in the mix here.

See, me too. Me too. But no, I mean, Eckler, I always have a soft spot for guys who can catch out of the backfield. I think it's the most, I just love the, it's such a safety valve for a quarterback, especially a young quarterback. And obviously, Justin Herbert doesn't need it because he throws perfect passes down in field. But it's just a nice little thing to have when a guy can catch out of the backfield. I mean, like, I just, there's a, there's a heritage there with guys like Adian Tomlinson and with the Chargers where it just seems, seems right that a guy with that franchise can do it. And I just love the skill set to do it.

Dalvin Cook is my number four worried a little bit. Let's go, baby. Everybody ranking Dalvin Cook makes me very happy. Eric Eager this morning, I actually posted that his yards per touch has been going down the last few years. And it was the first year it was under five. But still, one of the best in the league. Still, the number four guy.

Like, I don't think he's in the conversation for one. And maybe that may have been the case a couple of years ago. but I'm taking in with my franchise if I need it. And then you guys want to do three and two now? I mean, actually, we'll do three, two, and one, because we're going to know who the one is if we do three and two. So, Nora, take it away. Okay. At number three,

I'm a little scared to be in the fray here with the two of you on this. But at number three, I have Derek Henry, who in a different world would sort of get the Travis Kelsey treatment, where there's a little bit of lifetime achievement award going on here. Quite dramatically the most productive back for the last several seasons, even including the injury, but you're just concerned about the wear and tear. He is over that 1,500 carry threshold,

which gets a little bit concerning. We obviously saw him get hurt. Going into the seventh season, I would knock him down a little bit, though obviously Derek Henry has deserved to be number one on this type of list at, various points in his career. Number two, I have Nick Chubb.

And at number one, I went with Jonathan Taylor. Nick Chub is kind of the guy. Well, if Jonathan Taylor is sort of the guy that I really, really don't want to tackle in the open field, just exceptional speed at 220, incredible vision. Nick Chub is the guy I just sort of don't want to tackle, period. Over the last four years, he's led the NFL in yards after contact per rush and missed tackles forced per rush.

Every four tackles, every four rushes, Nick Chubb forces a missed tackle, which is just, I just love thinking about that. I just, I think that's delightful. Just every four carries, Nick Chubb is just like, ooh, made you miss. He finds a Josh Norman, a wild Josh Norman appears. Totally.

A wild Josh Norman appears. And the results are just delightful. I think Jonathan Taylor probably, this is a little bit of the same. same sort of what role do you want the guy to fill? There's a little bit more of like all around ability that I felt like made him deserve to go number one, but I could have gone either way with number one and two on the list. So there you have it.

So I had Derek Henry third as well. A couple of things. Number one, he played eight games last year and still had 937 yards. He had 15 yards per game more than he had in 2019, which we all know. I'm so excited for that. You can already see Ben shaking his head. No, no, no, that was in appreciation for how good Derek Henry is. Henry is my free.

Incredible, incredible player. I don't know. Like, he's the one guy where it doesn't matter what test you do, stats test, eye test. Like, you can just see it. Like, the dumbest football watcher in the world can watch Derek Henry and realize that he's one of the best people on the planet at football. Like, I don't know how he'd be. I mean, third, if he'd played a full season last year, he's in the mix with the guys who were at the top of this list.

Even, even above, frankly, a guy like Jonathan Taylor, um, like if there's a theory, if he played all 17 games last year and the full playoffs, I'd say, okay, you know what? There's a, you can bring so much value to a team. And I think he does that he's in the mix to be as valuable as Jonathan Taylor. It's just, the eight, the eight games just keeps him from that conversation. Yeah, I very much agree. We're like, I knew that my top tier was Chub and Taylor.

and then I knew that Henry was the next guy. And I was just like, all right, it's because he played a game. You know what I mean? And it's like he's, he could very easily be in that top tier as well if we had, don't have like the availability knock. And obviously, we're all wondering what the mileage is for Derek Henry.

It's definitely like, I'll believe he's going to tail off when I see it. He's just such an incredible build and such an incredible runner. But that question is kind of always looming a little bit more than it is for Chub and Taylor who are a little bit younger, a little bit healthier. That top tier for, so Henry's three.

That top tier for me, Taylor and Chub. I have Chubb at one and tailor it too. I don't. Again, this is a situation in which, like, we're splitting hairs between two of the best to the most beautiful runners, most physical runners, most unbelievable tackle breakers, most clever runners. Chubb last year wasn't the workhorse

that he had been in years previously because of some unavailability and because of the general struggles of the Brown's offense. The offensive line injuries that the Brown sustained should be worth noting at this time. They really had to shuffle constantly, which changed the amount of runs that they could do. but Taylor, who had more gross explosives, right,

more 10 plus more 20 plus yard runs, didn't actually have at the same rate. Chub was more likely to produce an explosive. He had a 10 plus run on 18% of his carries, but Taylor was at 15. He had a 20 plus yard run at 5.2% of his carries. Taylor was at 4.2%. So while, and Taylor drastically outpaced him for touchdowns,

but I really don't care about touchdowns too much because that's just like an opportunity thing as opposed to to a skill thing. So to me, while Taylor's gross numbers look better from an efficacy perspective, they were roughly the same. Nick Chubb also continues to be the premier player in terms of running against loaded boxes, something that the Taylor did not have to deal with as much because the Colts are an 11 personnel spread team or as the Browns are more of a 13 personnel condensed team.

Nick Chubb is the only player to ever average more than two rushing yards over expectation per carry against loaded boxes for next gen stats. He did it in 2021. He did it in 2020 and he did it in 28. no other back has ever done it. So no back has been as effective once as Chubb has been three times at running the ball against stack boxes, eight plus players. Nobody creates space in the tight areas of the field the way that Nick Chub does.

So to me, Chubb is one. And Taylor is 1B. But, you know, I would not take much for me to flip that. They're both just wonderful, wonderful players. So here's where I flipped it. I went back and forth on this. I watched both the guys today. Taylor took over the league at one point last year,

and I think that there was kind of a runaway momentum train where I was thinking about it a lot, especially kind of early December, where it was nobody wants to play the Colts, right? And that's all Jonathan Taylor. It certainly wasn't Carson Wentz. They were the hottest team in football. And then what happened, right?

That's the question. But they got jagged. They got Duvald. But with Taylor, I saw a staff the other day that basically, you know, if you just took his yards after contact, he'd be one of the most productive. of running backs in football.

And I guess different, different stat services calculate yards after contact differently. But Provenball Reference, which I think is probably the most conservative, has some 941 yards after contact last year, Taylor. Having said that, on an attempt basis, Nick Chubb has more yards after contact. It's just that Jonathan Taylor got 100 more carrots.

And so there's two things that would put Chubb, Chubb above Taylor. Number one is he just got less opportunities last year. But number two is if we're saying this list is for 2022, he's just got less wear and tear. And if we're doing the mileage thing, then if there's nothing between these guys, I'm going to go with the guy who had 100 less carries last year.

So I'm going Chub 1, Taylor 2. Love it. I'm very happy. You know Hooper SIS led the league in yards after contact for attempt among running backs? Hold on. I do, but I want you to announce it. Rashad Penny, baby. Fricking science will never be able to explain the month of December

that occurred in the Pacific Northwest for Rashad Penny. Ben, would you like to discuss Rashad Penny's season, perhaps? No, I don't understand. And the best thing, the best thing is it was the first ever flash of Rashad Penny being remotely worth a first round pick. And what did the Seahawks do three months later? draft Kenneth Walker by the top 50 pick baby Hey so I want to make one point about

You talk about how you don't care about touchdowns I went on the fantasy show last summer And I don't play fantasy football necessarily Unless it's very very very casual But so when I went on there They're like what gimmick can we do? And I was like, well on why don't we just do fantasy hot takes And my number one

And I truly believe this I really do not think touchdowns should count in fantasy football Like if you're truly trying to like draft the best players. Touchdowns carries so much weight that it actually just skews everything. It should just be yardage leagues. Yeah, but touchdowns are cool.

I understand that. I'm not the demographic, so it's fine. I'm not the fantasy demographic. I'm just saying that if I started a fantasy league, it would be different stuff. I have no opinion about what should or should not be included in fantasy football scoring on the basis that,

in that it is fantasy football, they do whatever you want, man. That's the whole point. You know what I'm saying? Let's make a yardage-only league, but then also leave all the other leagues and do whatever is fun. I don't know.

I'm forming a runaway yardage league, a break. I'm forming the live fantasy football. Just who creates the most yards after contact for attempt league? And we just kind of drafts some sick tackle breakers. Dude, Cooper Cup.

I was going to ask Cooper Cup about that because he's actually crushing it the last two years. Nobody's noticed. Those are my notes. Yeah. Yards after contact is also a fake stat. But if we do this, we're going to get every stats.

We're going to get back to teams or wins or not a team stat, which is where I got by the end of last season. Yards after contact is vaguely fake because there's different types of contact. Yes. And there's different types of people making the contact. And there's different charting services which have different grading points for contact. But this is also true of like accuracy. Like grading accuracy is extremely difficult. Contested catch is totally subjective.

Everything we talk about isn't real. Nothing means anything. Watch football, eat Rvies. This has been the ring around. We'll be back. We'll be back next week. Justin Jefferson will join us. So I think with Jefferson, it's going to be me,

Solac and Ruiz. Nora will be on the main episode. Rankin the wide out. No, Kevin, I'll be on vacation, actually. This is how this news gets transferred to me in real time. So Solac and Ruiz will be on both segments. Where are you going, Nora? Uh,

I will not be, we can talk about it later. Wow. This has been the ring around athro show on the Ringer Podcast Network. Thank you to find Anderson for discussion help with additional productions provision by Arjuna Ramqbal. See you guys later.