The Ringer NFL Show - Rebuilding a Team From Scratch and Redrafting the Last Three Years of QBs | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: April 5, 2019

The guys tackle how to rebuild team from scratch, including which positions to value first, which to wait on, and how to evaluate talent (0:35). Then draft expert Danny Kelly stops by for another edition of NFL Draft Stock Watch to cover this year’s pass-catcher prospects (28:45). Finally, the guys redraft all the QBs from the 2017, 2018, and upcoming 2019 drafts (50:30). Hosts: Robert Mays and Kevin Clark Guest: Danny Kelly Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, it's Liz Kelly, and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. April is a huge month for TV, and starting this weekend, the Recapables Feed returns to give you in-depth analysis on your favorite TV shows, including Killing Eve, billions, and many more. There will also be a special pre-capable series on the Recapables Feed on the final season of Game of Thrones, where our staff forecasts what will happen every Sunday on the show. So make sure to subscribe now before the premiere of Killing Eve and Game of Thrones on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

To The Ringer NFL show. I'm Robert Mays. Joined as always by Kevin Clark. How you doing, buddy? I'm a lot better because producer Craig and I just spent five minutes just banging out different NFL film songs. Yeah, I was listening on the other end. We just started talking about it and then we started playing it through the headphones here. And I got to tell you, NFL films had some bangers. It'll get you going. It'll get you ready for this show. So today we're going to be talking about a few different things.

First of all, you and I are going to break down something I think is pretty fun. We're going to talk about how you would build an NFL team from scratch. Essentially, if you were starting one right now, what positions would you want? What would you value all of that stuff? Which, by the way, the Miami Dolphins are doing right now. Exactly. So the dolphins are pretty much doing this. So we're going to talk about it through the lens of the dolphins.

But really, it's just a thought exercise on a broader scale. after that, we're going to welcome Danny Kelly in and we're going to talk about some of the past catchers from this year's drafts, some guys that are moving up and down, both a tight end and receiver. And then, since I am no longer necessary, apparently, you and Danny are going to do a quarterback redraft

from the last three drafts as a way to kind of talk about this year's class as prospects as they relate to some of the guys from the last couple years. Not to break the fourth wall, but Danny is sitting across me right now and not talking, and I feel like he's just judging us the whole time. Am I on here? Am I on?

he usually is judging us the whole time anyway, I'm assuming. So this isn't anything new. He's just live and in person. It'd be a great bit of every 20 minutes. He just leaned in and said, am I on? Is this thing on? Hello? Hello?

All right. We'll talk to you in about 40 minutes, Danny. We will get to you, Danny. We will get to you. It's probably not going to be 40 minutes because then we'll definitely be running out of time. But we'll be getting to Danny at some point here over the next hour. So let's start with this build a team from scratch idea. And I don't know where you want to kick off this conversation, Kevin.

I think that the first thing. the first thing I want to say, as we're looking at the dolphins in this year's draft or any team in this year's draft, that would be kind of going through this process, if you don't have any players, you should pick the best player available, period. Yeah. But I also think that if everything is equal, there are certain positions I'm going to prioritize over others. So I just want to put that as a disclaimer at the beginning. Pick the best player available because you have no reason to not stockpile your team with talent. You don't have needs. You have needs everywhere.

So that's what I want to say right off the bat, but then we'll get into some of the positions. I think, again, all things being equal, I'd rather have as the pillars and the foundation of my team than others. So why don't you start about, why don't you to start us off? What was your kind of first thing that came to mind with, all right, I'm building an NFL team. I have nothing to go on. What was the most important thing to me right now?

So I want to talk big picture for one second. And what I found fascinating when I was thinking about this is how much, you know, how much the rookie wage cap has changed everything. It really has changed the entire sport. And we get accused of talking about it too much. I don't think you can talk too much about it because it's unbelievable. It wouldn't be in this Kyler, Josh Rosen's situation. If it wasn't for the rookie cap and you could just kind of stack those guys on top of each other,

if it was still the Sam Bradford situation, Josh Rosen was making $40 or $50 million guaranteed, they would not be thinking of drafting another quarterback. Everything changes because of that. Having said that, what's interesting to me is that if you started this and said, You have to have a quarterback. That would have made sense for 80 years, right, of NFL football. But now, because the whole thing is about maximizing rookie contracts, everything needs to happen simultaneously.

You need to have talent by the time you get your quarterback. So I'm with you. If it happens to be the quarterback first, that's fine. You're not going to pass on a quarterback. But if you're a team starting from scratch, I think you can, you're okay going with the pass rush. You're okay going with the dominant quarterback, cornerback, excuse me.

and then the quarterback is a piece of that. You can't really go two years or three years without getting a good quarterback if you're going to start moving forward. What I'm saying is quarterbacks can be the last piece and not the first piece of a rebuild. Okay, so let's talk about the quarterback first. I think that's a very good place to start. The quarterback is mandatory, but it doesn't have to be first.

It's mandatory at some points. It doesn't have to be first. I'm totally with you on that kind of order of operation. when it comes to the quarterback. If I were the dolphins right now, so let's just use them as an example here. They have the 13th pick in the draft, correct? So let's say, for instance,

they love Drew Locke, and Drew Locke is there at 13. This is quite the hypothetical. Well, I'm just saying, let's say that he's there at 13 and they love him. They think we would, Drew Locke is as good as any quarterback prospect we think we're going to get next year.

That's probably not true, but just for the, Our purpose is here, let's say that. I'm okay with drafting him there if you think he's the guy you want long term, but that is the scenario where I would not play him this season, if that makes sense. You would play, that's where I would sit my quarterback because I would want to build the infrastructure

for a year and then put the quarterback I want in that infrastructure. If you're tanking, though, this fits when you less games? But I think you need to take the long view with that. it's not a matter of who wins you less games. It's a matter of are you going to ruin your quarterback that you spent a first round pick on by throwing him in a situation that's not conducive to his success. I get it. I get it. I understand that.

Yeah, I think that it's one of the more interesting wrinkles. Again, it used to be you would draft a guy in the top 10, in the top 15. He's already going to make a ton of money. He's going to make a ton of money's entire career. So it doesn't matter where you get him. Now, if you don't maximize that five-year window, that four-year window, at least, you're screwed. And that's the lesson of a lot of these teams.

And Brady obviously is an outlier because Brady takes less as a long-term veteran on his contract. But the lesson of these teams is figuring out how to build a team around a guy making $6 million a year of the quarterback position. And so that is the path everybody's going to be taking. If you're the Cardinals and you draft Kyler Murray and you don't get good value for Josh Rosen, you basically have a four-year window to get a hell of a lot of players. I mean, I don't even know. It is, it is, I don't even see a path forward with the Cardinals. I'm sure that I'll be wrong if power solves are their problems, but they've got a lot of holes.

And they don't have enough draft picks. They don't have enough draft picks at this point to fill those. That's why I think, this is off topic a little bit. But if I were the Cardinals, my goal would be to keep Josh Rosen and trade the number one pick for a shitload of other picks. Or, no. That's what I would want to do. That's what I would do too. The other option that I wrote this week is just keep both of them.

and what's the point of trading Josh Rosen after surrounding him with the crappiest coaching staff offensively in years, tanking his stock, hiring an offensive coach who's now going to solve the quarterback position and getting rid of Josh Rosen before that? Why not let him play September, October? There's no way the value of Josh Rosen goes down.

I wrote about something similar last week, I want to say, or two weeks ago. If you took Murray, I wouldn't trade Josh Rosen just to trade him, but I would probably trade him before the regular season started. I would not. I would not. I think, I may be keep him another year.

I think that that's the one. I understand where you're coming from, but I think that seeing him in the preseason in that system, you're going to see him play better than he probably did last year. I also think that there is a personality management aspect to it, bringing in your franchise quarterback with a guy you drafted in the top 10 also sitting there. I think that gets a little bit naughty. times, I think teams like having the guy and having it be clear.

And I think that would be a really difficult kind of minefield for a first year head coach to navigate with both of those guys on the roster. All right. So if you're the dolphins, getting very off topic. No, no. I mean, it's fine. If you're the dolphins right now, you go after what? You're starting.

We're using the dolphins as a proxy for any team that just has every hole to fill. So if I was a rebuilding team, I said that, I said that. if you love Locke, maybe you take them. But I would not take a quarterback in year one. I'd probably wait if I had the 13th pick like the Dolphist. Especially in this, you know, Daniel Jeremiah does not have a quarterback until number 11 on his top 50. So, and when you consider the next year's class with Herbert and with Tua and all of that,

and you think you're probably going to be one of the worst three or four teams in the league, I wait. So if I'm waiting on quarterback, and again, all things being equal with where these guys are on your board, what I want to build first is an infrastructure for my quarterback that I'm going to eventually draft. And if you look at this year's class, again, just for example, you have Dillard that left tackle from Washington State that could be there in that range. You have the right tackle from Florida that people are projecting as a left tackle.

I want to make sure when my quarterback eventually comes in that he's going to be upright and he's going to have guys to throw to. So the things that I want to make sure I have in place for next season are an offensive line of some quality. I would draft a tackle probably because I think that digging into free agency for tackles is really dicey. But if you look at the free agent class of interior line next season, when the dolphins are going to have $120 million or whatever this hypothetical team would be,

you're looking at guys like Brandon Scherf, Austin Blythe, Ronald Leary, Andres Pete, Cody Whitehair. You can build an interior offensive line for not premium value in free agency. So that's what I would do. I would draft tackles. I would draft past catchers, and I would try to build the rest of my offense and piece it out in free agency next year with all the money that I had. So, I agree.

I think that offensive line is a big part of this. And we've seen a handful of young quarterbacks coming into situations that border on malpractice. A lot of Texans fans accused me of bringing up too much the fact that Deshaun Watson was hit so much he couldn't fly on an aircraft. Well, I have very few rules in life. and one of them is if you get hit so much that you can't fly on an aircraft, people should bring it up all the time. Yes.

That's one of my core tenants. And Deshawn Watson, there were parts of last year where I thought that the offensive line and he used to threatening his career, legitimately. All it takes is one hit and everything changes. He got out of it, he got healthy. Obviously, they got destroyed in that playoff game

by a buzzsaw of a Colts team that's really hot at that point. But I just feel like when you watch, the Houston Texans, they have not done enough to make him put in the best position to win. And that starts with the offensive line. And I think that if you're a team watching it now, you say if we hit on a quarterback, and I think that Deshaun Watson, his rookie year was better than anybody thought he was going to be. Maybe the timetable sped up with them a little bit, but certainly in year two, coming off an injury, they could have done more. And now in year three,

I don't even know how much that improves going into year three. But what I'm saying is if you're a team, when you look at the Houston Texans, you're probably saying to yourself, if we hit on a quarterback, we better keep them up, right? It's exactly what you're saying. You know, you look at some of the teams last year just totally derailed. You know, the Minnesota Vikings, you talked with them last week, totally derailed by that offensive line. I remember Joe Banner saying something a couple years ago on Twitter.

I think about all the time. I think it was the Bengals were being hyped up a little bit because they had some exciting offensive players. And, you know, they added John Ross that year, which obviously was not as big a deal as we imagined. And I remember Joe Banner saying on Twitter that, you know, The mark of an overrated team is a lot of skill position guys with no line. Absolutely.

And when you look at it from that perspective, yeah, you've got to start up front. I would say both lines. I would say both lines because offensive and defensive lines are equally important. I think that in this era of spread, in this era of get the ball in space, basketball and grass, all that stuff, we've overlooked some of it. And I know it's so lame and people don't want to hear it, but this is still trench warfare. It is still so important what happens in front of you. And I still deeply believe in drafting for the lines. So this is the problem when a lot of these teams have to go get their quarterback.

So when I was kind of trying to do this exercise, I was thinking of the ways I wouldn't want to do it and teams that in my mind have made mistakes and how they've done it. And I think Buffalo last year is a good example. They had a terrible offensive line, arguably the worst receiving core in the entire NFL. And they drop their top 10 quarterback in this scenario where it's going to be really hard for him to succeed considering the talent around him. And part of the problem with that is that in order. to go get that quarterback, they had to give up players that would help him. You know, they trade

Cordy Glenn to Cincinnati in order to swap picks and move up a little bit further. You talked about the Texans. It's the same kind of deal. You know, they had to trade a second round pick to go to get out of Brock Oswalders contract. They had to trade a future first round pick to go get to Sean Watson. So that's the problem. I think that when you have to give up other resources to get your quarterback, it's going to come at the expense of your quarterback oftentimes. So that's why I want to just build a scenario where I can drop my quarterback in and he can be successful. Look at the damn Eagles. The Eagles built through the lines.

And they dropped Carson Wentz behind a line that was already established. That is so important. And you talk to people in Philadelphia. You talk to people in Philadelphia. And we talk about sort of the Eagles model or the Rams model. And both people in L.A. and Philadelphia say everyone has learned the wrong lessons. One of the things that both of those teams did really well was build through the lines. and it's not, it is about offensive coaching.

It is about maximizing the rookie contract, all the things we talk about. But by the way, they have damn good lines, and that's really important. I think that the Eagles are a good example, and you know who else is a good example? They had some issues at tackle last year

because Joe Thomas retired, but this is how the Browns built their team. One of the first things they did when they said, okay, we're going to start spending, we're going to start building, was they handed out contracts to linemen. Kevin Zitler, J.C. Treter, Hubbard is there now at Wright tackle,

Joe Betonio is a guy they resigned. That is an area where they put a lot of investment and a lot of funds because they wanted to make sure when they got their quarterback, he's a guy that could succeed and could survive. So I think that's a really good way to do it. And then I think you need a pass a pass catcher, at least one. You know, in the, if I'm kind of going through the rounds, I want in the first few rounds, I want a guy that can catch the ball. Because I think that again, you need to help out your quarterback in some way. Wait, do we have a quarterback in this situation already or not? No.

No. I think in this situation, I'm picking a quarterback in year two because I think that I'm going to be, again, maybe one of the two or three worst teams in the league, especially when, you know, if we're doing it right now,

and we know next year's quarterback class is coming, I'm waiting until next year. That's my thought. When was the last time we weren't like wait till next year's quarterback class? Last year. I don't know. I think there's always, even when there's a good quarterback class,

it's always like, who you think this year is good. I think last year, we all knew that next year was going to be a little bit rough. And this was the year to go get somebody. I can't wait till Brian Brom comes. Well, that's the funny part about the Giants decision, is that they were like, oh, we're good.

And then now it's like, all right, Daniel Jones, come on down. Let's do this. So let's move to defense because I think that even though the quarterback infrastructure is most important to me, I want to talk about some just value conversations about the defensive side of the ball where you'd build first. So I wrote about this today. And we talked about it a little bit on the show, but the idea that the Patriots are hesitant to give out these big,

contracts to edge rushers. They always have been, they've always traded a guy. They traded Chandler Jones. They let Trey Flowers walk. You know, they haven't drafted an edge rusher, a true edge rusher in the first round other than Chandler Jones in the entire Belichick tenure. And I think only a handful of guys in the first two rounds. Jermaine Cunningham is in that conversation.

But for the most part, they've gone elsewhere with their high value free agent signings and their draft picks. They've chosen to give a lot of money to. corners. That's the only position they've really spent a ton on an outside free agency. So that's really kind of colored my thinking about this. I was talking to an executive last night just about this idea and how you spread out the resources. And we were just talking about how if the ideal kind of rotational snap counts for defensive alignment are in your 60s or 60 percent, 70 percent, and Stefan Gilmore or whoever your top corners are are playing 100

percent of the snaps, that's value. It's a lot easier to maximize the dollars in that guy than it is your edge rusher most likely. So if I'm building my defense, there would have been a time maybe three or four years ago where the first thing I would have said was give me a defensive end that can bother the quarterback. And now I think the first two positions I would go for are corner and if I could find a dominant interior rusher. I agree. And that's something that sort of we've been on for a while, which is a lot of the really, really good teams to figure out that you need seven, eight defensive lines. Chris Ballard came out and said he wants every defensive lineman to be in the 60s, 60% snap count area, right? That would be the top end for a good defensive lineman.

As you said, cornerbacks affect every single play. They can literally take one side of the field away. And, you know, that was something, you know, I keep coming back to PFF saying that Bobby Wagner was more valuable than there. Donald because you can scheme Aaron Donald out of the game and you cannot scheme a dominant pass coverage lineback. I'm not saying here that Bobby Wagner is Patrick Peterson here, but what I'm saying is that he can do a lot of things and he can cover the pass. A cornerback can cover the pass.

I think that's really interesting. And I think that that changes the game in the way people don't think. We brought up the Earl Thomas heat chart a couple of weeks ago where basically when Earl Thomas is out there and he can cover and he's dominant, he takes a way. way an entire chunk of the field. He's like Dwight Howard was 10 years ago, where teams are just not going to go anywhere near Earl Thomas and they're going to change the way they play.

How does that change going forward? I don't know because of his health, because it's fit with the Ravens, whatever. Danny, by the way, is getting really sad and bring up Earl Thomas. Sorry, buddy. Wait till the point I'm about to make about Bobby Wagner. But I just,

okay. Oh, wait, is you going to say, you're going to say, Bobby Wagner's not going to be as good without Earl Thomas? I'm going to say Bobby Wagner is a free agent next year. So if you're a team with $120 million in cap space. I mean, I might lose Russell Wilson, too. I mean, the big question is, can they sign Wilson, Wagner, and Clark at the same time? They're not going to, maybe not.

And then we're going to be losing all these. There's only one franchise tag, baby. Okay. But what I'm saying is that I'm with you, Mayes. I think a guy who can cover, I've come around to guys who can cover being more important than guys who can rush the passer. And by the way, it looks like the chiefs agree with that. Yeah. I mean, the chiefs went this direction.

You know, the Ravens in recent years have spent way more on their secondary than they have on their defensive front. I looked at the Patriots last four Super Bowl trips. The highest percentage of the cap they spent on edge rushers was 23% of the cap. Or excuse me, it was the 23rd ranked cap like percentage of the cap spent on edge rushers in the league. The other three teams, 32, 32, and 30. Yeah. I think that's telling. And there are different ways to do this.

the Eagles were number two when they won the Super Bowl. I absolutely think that those guys are still valuable in the right scheme. Also, the Patriots schematically are different than a lot of teams, so they can afford to do that. Their linebackers are double as pass rushers. You're Dante Hightowers, your Kyle Van Noyes. And also, they're just so good at figuring out exactly what someone should do. I mean, Kyle Van Noy was seen as a massive bust, and now he's going to be a Patriot Hall of

Famer. The Patriots are unique. But I still think that there's a way to start thinking about this. The guy was talking to last time we were talking about Khalil Mack, and he just said, even if the Patriots do it this way, when you have a premium player, you can still pay premium money. Because Kalil Mac is affecting the game in a hundred different ways.

But it's the same way that Aaron Donald is probably worth his contract when most interior rushers wouldn't be. You can't look at the outliers talent-wise and use them as an archetype for the position as a whole. You have to consider them for what they are as individual talents. And that's why I don't mind what the Bears did with Kalil-Mack, but I think overall I can understand this kind of changing of tides for how people view edge rushers and how people view them

compared to secondary players. I don't, looking at the Patriots as a guide for anything is, is a bit misguided because nobody's as smart as they are. And for some reason, I still can understand it. We know all of the guideposts of Patriots dominance. We know that they ask what a player can do instead of what he can't do.

We know that they only ask players to do exactly the role that they can do and nothing else. That's sort of the lesson of Kyle Van Newell or someone. before that, Rob Nankovic, who had failed at other places and then was able to exist in a very specific role in the Patriots world. And yet, no one has figured out how to do that. And I don't know, I don't know if that's just Belichick being smarter than everybody or guys who when they get their own program just are afraid to do everything they do because a lot of it's so counterintuitive. I don't know. But for whatever reason, I almost see the Patriots as existing completely outside the modern NFL because they're just so much better than everybody else.

It's so interesting to me. I mean, this is a perfect example. You look at Bob Quinn and Matt Patricia go into Detroit. The Patriots let Trey Flowers walk. And the lions are like, let's do it. Let's be first in line. Take all the money. And it's just so fascinating because these are guys that theoretically should come

from the same school of thought about how to value players. And they went in the exact opposite direction. It's like they weren't paying attention to anything that ever happened there. But Matt Patricia wasn't sitting up in his seat, so he didn't quite notice what was going on. So let's, right, before we get to Danny and we talk about the past catchers here, I want to talk about just the idea of the later rounds, the mid to later rounds. So for you, I know, you're a traits guy, you know, through and through. So if you're looking at guys, let's say, I'm a traits guy. I've never been described.

Okay, I'm in. You like physical traits. I love it. I love it. I love it. I just never, I'd never phrase it that way. I'm a traits guy, big time traits guy. You're a traits guy.

Production is not as important to you as physical athletic traits are when it comes to draft process. Production is for college production is for losers. I didn't produce in college. I tend to agree with you. So if you're looking at, so if you're looking at receivers, safeties,

linebackers, stuff like that, for you, it's give me the guy with the best testing numbers because these are all dice rolls anyway and I'd much rather have somebody that I can mold and that has the athletic ability that I want over somebody that is not quite there, but is a decent player. Yeah, I mean, I don't necessarily, I remember the, the Alvin Kumar thing that I take a lot of victory laps on because I was really high on him and there were people who were saying people and people who are other journalists saying, why are you so high at Alvin Kamara? And the lesson I learned

from that A is that athleticism matters, especially when you're taking a flyer on a guy in the third round or later. But the other thing is, like, he was coached by Butch Jones. Like, Bush Jones is an idiot. Like, I don't know if you know this, but a lot of college coaches are just not good. You know, who else is not good? A lot of pro coaches. So I just think that taking, okay, he didn't look good in blank scheme, or he didn't

look good in this offense, or he didn't get enough carries, or he didn't throw the ball enough, or he got benched for a, you know, I remember people saying this, like, you know, about Mitch Trubisky. didn't get enough opportunities, maybe his coach, he didn't believe him or whatever. It's like, well, maybe Larry Fadora is a bad coach. What about that? He was on his way getting fired. I'm with you, man.

I do not disagree whatsoever. So I just think that looking at college career can be helpful, but on the other hand, like, it's a very different sport, and B, reading too much into how they were viewed by a coaching staff or an opposing coach staff, whatever it was,

is it can be a little bit full-hearted. I think there are a few different things that I look for that I would, these are the guys I would shoot for if I was building a roster and I'm looking at lay around picks. Just pure athleticism, like from the, let's use George Kittle as an example. He didn't have no college production whatsoever, but you look

at the testing and it's like, holy shit, this guy can move. Another thing is, with defensive backs, I don't need a guy that necessarily is a burner, stuff like that. But if I'm picking a guy in like the fifth round, fourth round, just three cone times. That's everything I would go on. You and Belichick, maybe.

Desmond King is a good example. A guy that was a good college player did not necessarily test well in terms of, you know, North-South speed. I can't even remember what his documented 40 time was, but he'd an awesome three-cone and he was a good college player. He's been fantastic for the Chargers. And the last thing for me is just undersized guys. I feel like all the time, these guys in the fourth or fifth round,

the people are like, ah, he doesn't have the prototypical frame for the position. I mean, just list them off. Tarique Cohen, Grady Jarrett. There's so many guys that just end up becoming impact players because people look at them and say, that doesn't fit my understanding of that position, and they end up being really good. So I had an interesting talk at the Combine

with Charles Davis from NFL Network, and we were talking about size and corners and speed in corners. And those two things are very, very related. Because I think someone had brought up Joe Juan Williams, who is a six-foot-four cornerback from Vanderbilt. Danny's just furiously shaking his head. I'm nodding my head because I like him a lot, yeah.

Yeah, okay, okay. Of course you do, Danny. It's everything you've come to value about football. Right, right, right, right. Exactly. So that's what we're getting at. And one of the things Charles Davis said, and this was completely separate from Joe Unw Williams,

was the thing no one understood about Richard Sherman, and Davis had watched him in practice, and a lot of people have watched him in practice, and I guess this was in college as well, is that Richard Sherman never made a mistake. And he anticipated in practice and in games exactly what was going to happen and he was always there. And he said he proves the exception to the rule because he played so fast because he was so smart. And it's really hard to glean that from combine measurements.

It's probably hard to glean that from game tape, really, because, you know, it is a bit of a limited sample size, especially in college. In practice, you see it more. But he played faster than his 40 time. He played faster in his three cone time because Richard Sherman understood the game better than anybody. And I think that those are the sort of exceptions you have to make when you say, okay, this guy is not an athletic freak, but he plays faster than this 5 foot 11 guy next to him and he's four inches taller because he's smarter and knows where he needs to be. I think those are the sort of things this time of year that you get overlooked is just why you're making an exception. Absolutely. I think again, you look at guys in this draft like Rishon Gary or D.K. McCaff, these guys that are. unbelievable athletes but didn't necessarily produce.

And it's like, okay, well, why? You go look and you see what the tape says and why do they move this way? Why don't they, why aren't their numbers better? All this stuff. And that's why the tape matters. The one more thing I want to say before we get to DK when it comes to traits, if it's three cone for secondary players, in my opinion, it's 20 yard shuttle for pass rushers.

I think that that's the number that if you see guys that were typically underdrafted, they usually do very well. Carl Lawson is a really good example of somebody who's been very solid, had an awesome 20 yard shuttle didn't necessarily blow anybody away with his other stuff. Both sides of the line for that. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Yep.

So, all right, let's get to DK here. Yeah. Okay, Danny, so today we're going to talk about some of the past catchers in this year's draft. And more than the guys that have kind of risen and fallen, I think with this position group especially and 100% at wide receiver, there are a lot of guys that are tough to figure out. There are so many guys that become a Roershack test for scouts, I think.

Some people see one guy. some people see another value is all over the place with some of these guys. So let's dig into some of the more controversial receivers first all. So let's start with D.K. McCaf, who I think a lot of people have as the number one receiver in the draft. And I went back and watched him today. And I know we've had some conversations about him on this show just because of his testing numbers and what seems like a lack of flexibility and change of direction problem. So when you watched him, what was just kind of the first thing that jumped out to you? To me, the first thing that just shows up is, like, his combination of size and speed, like his ability to get downfield in a hurry. He's just,

he has no problem getting off press. He's very, very explosive as a downfield threat. I think that's, like, the thing that defines him. I think that's why a lot of people are comparing him to sort of Josh Gordon or whatever. It's not necessarily his route running chops, obviously, with his three cone short short short times, which were just atrocious. You know, there's huge concerns and I think legitimate concerns about his ability to change direction and be a factor sort of in the short and intermediate areas. But his ability to take the top off of a defense is really what stood out to me. That's why I have him as my top receiver in this class right now. I think just his potential to develop those, you know, those physical traits like you guys were talking

about, those physical traits I think really stood out to me just off the tape immediately. I'm the traits guy. That's true. You can't be the traits guy. I'll be the tape guy. Kevin's the traits guys. So I watched three games of his today. And he is such a weird player to watch and a weird player to kind of evaluate. So his stop and start ability, I don't know if I've ever seen a man that big get going that quickly. He's got turbo boosters. Yeah. It's unbelievable because we see guys that are big body and have huge frames that have a great top end speed. They're able to get there. They're 40 time as great as a result. But his ability when he's releasing outside to put his foot in the ground, be at a dead stop and then be zero to 60 instantly is unbelievable. I'm thinking about that

touchdown he had against Alabama. It's like, holy shit, you watch that play, and I think it's easy to fall in love with him. But I can understand why some people have some reservations, because one, you look at those change of direction testing numbers, they're about as bad as they could possibly be. I mean, his his 20 yard shuttle was 4 or 5. You have linemen run faster than that. His 3-8. Again, linemen run faster than that.

But everything else was off the charts. And the other thing that you kind of mentioned, he didn't run routes. He did not run routes. He ran no routes. There are some of the plays in the red zone where he'll bend in and kind of come back out on what looks like a fade, but it's this weird

kind of spread out fade. That's not what you normally see in the NFL. And outside of that, it's just a lot of go routes. Goes and posts. Yeah. That's it. With him, it's really about projection. You're looking at this specimen and you're saying, what can he do for us?

And I can, when you see him and you see the 40 time and the broad jump and everything else, you think, how was he the 25th ranked prospect in this class, according to some people? And then you watch the tape and you're just like, okay, I get it now. I completely understand. So to your point about the acceleration, um, I, that's, That's definitely, I think, to me, the biggest thing. His incredible start-stop acceleration is what stood out. His 10-yard split at the combine, his official 10-yard split was 1.48 seconds. Brad Kelly of the Draft Network pointed this out.

That's faster than guys named Odell Beckham, Julio Jones, John Brown, Brandon Cooks, Will Fuller, Calvin Johnson, T.Y. Hilton, Kenny Stills, Deshaun Jackson. That blazing speed off the line is what makes, like, that is the most intriguing thing to me about him as a prospect. His size is really, you know, intriguing too. So, you know, there's the old cliche in the draft or whatever in draft study. Tell me what a guy can do and not what he can't do. And what he can do, I think what he has potential to do at an elite level is just be a really, really good deep threat. This is a guy with 67 career catches in college.

And he's probably going to be a first round pick. And that speaks to this class in general. Part of that is because of a neck injury, which I know is also a huge. concern. All right. Let's get to some of the other guys. This is, in my opinion, the most polarizing player in this entire draft. I've listened to a lot of conversations about prospects.

There are some people that see this guy as the number one receiver in the class. And there are some people who don't see him in the first four rounds. And that's Hakeem Butler from Iowa State. He's fairly high on your draft board, Danny. I think he's 22 in our ringer NFL draft guide. Would you check out if you have not? So what do you see from him that kind of makes you more bullish on him than a lot of other guys happen to be.

Well, I think it's just a combination of things. So, well, I think he has that Metcalf maybe lacks. He is a little bit more agile. I think his ability to change directions in the short area, you know, on comebacks, on whip routes, things like that. You can see that show up on tape. People are definitely concerned about his hands. And I think that's valid concern.

But part of it, too, is, you know, he's just got such a huge catch radius that some of these passes that you might call drops are, passes that no one would ever have gotten to, like other players would not have gotten to. He's 6'5. He's got really long arms. He can jump out of the stadium. So he has this incredible catch radius that I think makes him really intriguing.

In the same sense as D.K. McHaff, he's an excellent deep threat. I mean, he had almost 22 yards per catch this last season. So he's able to get past the defense, but he also has that sort of intermediate and short zone effectiveness, I think, makes him, you know, like a potentially dominant receiver at the next level.

There's a lot of question marks with this guy, but I really just like him. I think his potential to develop into that overall guy who can do a little bit of everything is there. So he is a guy that I think, you know, is maybe one, if not the most polarizing guy in this draft. Because there's, you know, a lot of the, you know, big names in draft Twitter and just draft media in general have him sort of down into the second or potentially even third round. So there's other guys that have him as number one. are the big names on draft Twitter. I meant to say big name in draft media. You, Danny Kelly, are the big name in draft Twitter.

So like Daniel Jeremiah, I don't think had him in his top 50. He does not. Lance Zero Lane from NFL.com has him quite a ways down the list. So they're, you know, the NFL, and I heard actually Dan Ruggler said on his podcast, I think it's called Trusted Tape, that he, that he like draft Twitter and NFL, or I guess just draft Twitter in general, does not, or likes him way more than the NFL likes him. So that to me is just very, very fascinating.

I'll see how that all plays out. It only takes one team to fall in love of them. And then, you know, that narrative goes out the window. But he's also kind of guy you can see fall a little bit more. The things I like about him, the speed is undeniable. I think that he definitely can get down field. He does play big at times. He's not one of those guys that's going to catch in his body.

He does seem like he's 6'5 a lot. What I really liked about him that was a little bit different than what I saw from Metcalf is, his ability to work back to the ball is excellent. It's really good along the sideline. He can change direction in that way. There's just a, what's what I'm looking at? He reacts.

He reacts to the ball. He adjusts to the ball. And I think that's what's really encouraging. I can understand the questions and the cautiousness because he is not sudden out of breaks. He's very tall and he's not fluid. You think a lot of people are saying the highest upside is AJ Green. He's just not nearly as fluid as AJ Green to me.

me. I think AJ Green doesn't play like he's 6-5. He moves so much easier than that. And I don't think Butler gets in and out of breaks like that. I just don't see the short area quickness that I do with a guy like AJ Green. He's a little legy. Yes, he's very legy. And I think he has trouble kind of shuttling or throttling down, all that stuff. But I do understand why people would love him. And I understand why you're a high on him. Lance Airline has De Niro Alexander as his cop, which I love so much. That's such a throwback. Like, I'm the only one who, appreciates that as the man who covered De Niro Alexander's only good college season.

We need more. I feel like we only go back like five, six, seven years in draft comps. I just want to see like Yancey Thigpin as a draft comp. Like I feel like we need to just, we need to go back like 25 years now. Lance is really good at that. He has some way backtrack comps. I love that.

So I want to talk very quickly. If we're going to do in comps, we're going to get to Nick Hill Harry in a second who is somebody else that people a little bit split on. But I want to talk about AJ Brown very quickly for doing comps. You mentioned him as somebody I should watch just because he seems like a consensus first round guy. He was the more productive receiver on D.K. McCaff's team. Right.

My comp for AJ Brown, I want to hear what you think about this. I think he's yoked Golden Tate. Yoked. I like that. Yeah. I mean, so. Shots fired at Golden Tate's a thing. Here's the thing.

Golden Tate weighs 190 pounds. It weighs 200 pounds. AJ Brown was 225. Yeah. Here's why I like that. they both run like running backs after the catch. Yes. Yeah.

I still think the golden, the Golden Tate thing, it's very hard for me to compare anyone to Golden Tate because Golden Tate has an internal gyroscope that he just refuses to go down. I don't think it's amazing. He's incredible. He's amazing. I don't know if Brown has that natural.

He told me he was a running back one point. Yeah, in high school. I believe. So, yeah. So he's one of those guys, Golden Tate is that I don't like comparing anyone to, just because he's got this rare ability to just, you know,

spin out of tackle attempts like crazy. But I definitely see the stylistic comp, I think is absolutely there in the sense that very good after the catch, very physical, almost just like a running back after the catch. The stop start is amazing. His ability to just stop on a dime

and then get going again. Guys just fly by him in the same way they do golden tape. That's what it reminded me of. I also, but he's six foot 228. And if you want to send him on deeper routes, he goes and gets the ball. I really like him.

him. I'm not sure what his ceiling is, but I think he's just a guy that you put him on your team and he's going to produce instantly. I really like him a lot. You know who else who else I kind of jotted down as a conf for AJ Brown is DJ Moore. Very just a bigger DJ more. Yeah, like explosive, good yak, you know, just tons and tons of potential. Um, the thing that worries me a little bit about Brown is like his tape is a lot of just really easy check down or slant type stuff over the slot. I think he'll have to kind of prove that he can play on the outside. I think he can do that. But if he's going to be like a Z receiver in the NFL or whatever, you know, he'll have to kind of show that, I think, a little bit more to improve that he can do the stuff on the outside as well.

Oh, see, I'm putting him in the slot. Well, I mean, Z or slot, like have him come, like, have him motion into the slot all the time. I think, like, he can just play, you know, all over. So that's interesting. I would just have him be my slot receiver. Like, that's where I would draft him to play. Yeah, I'm not going to talk you out of that. That's where he's where he made hay in college, but I guess there's a question of like how valuable is that? I think in today's NFL, it's extremely valuable. Yeah, fair. I don't mind doing that at all.

If you're picking a guy to have him be your slot corner, your slot receiver, I don't buy that anymore that you can't draft the guy in the first round and have him playing the slot for you. I'm totally fine with that. I am too. Has the NFL caught up with that thinking? I don't know. Maybe they should, though. The NFL is not caught up with any thinking.

Whatever it is. Right. All right. So let's talk about Nikul Harry briefly. Nikiel Harry, D.K., of all these guys, he's the guy I like the least of the guys that I watch. Just because he doesn't contested catches, he does a good job of going to get the ball in traffic. That's fine. He posts guys up pretty well on the sideline.

But when you watch him, he just doesn't really have an idea of how to get open. And when you're not that fast and you're not that big, I worry about that. It just seems like you watch him. And when you talk about how to run routes, you want to be up on a corner. You want to be stepping on his toes when you're trying to make your breaks. This is a guy that'll do it five yards away from somebody. And when you watch him, very rarely when he makes a catch on tape, is he in any open space? There's somebody right on him almost every single time.

And that concerns me. Yeah. So, yeah, like you said earlier, there's a Roershack test, I think, in terms of like how much you value separation and all that. So on, speaking of Lance Ealing, on his scouting report of Nikiel Harry, he had a wide receivers coach from an AFC team, give him a quote. And I thought it was super interesting just in general overall of the receiver position. So this guy, this receivers coach from AFC team said, all this talk of his lack of separation is overdone. In the league, nobody gets that much separation anyway. You have to know how to use your body and route leverage and you need strong hands.

From what I've seen of him, he does all that stuff well. So I don't necessarily 100% agree with that. I'm not buying that. I think it's super interesting. It's true. Like, NFL quarterbacks have to throw with anticipation regardless. I just think that it takes such a unique receiver to succeed when you don't get separation. Like, we're going to look at Deandra Hopkins and say, well, you don't need separation.

he's the only one who doesn't need separation. Outside of that, I still think that creating room, creating easy passes, giving your quarterback the best possible target, allowing your quarterback just easy completions, that stuff still matters. I don't buy that. I think that if you're a guy that's going to have a cornerback

draped on you at all times, you have to be a special talent to succeed in that way. So my question is, if you put him in the slot, how different is he than A.J. Brown? is he the guy that you can trust to have like if you're drafting him just put him in the slot immediately give him like that cushion

at the line of scrimmage let him make plays over the middle field he's extremely physical he's extremely tough at the catch point all that stuff does that change your thinking of him if you look at him as like a slot guy I like AJ Brown a lot more in space from what I've watched I just I haven't seen the Q. Harry do that kind of stuff

it takes you know think about a guy like Anquan Bold and somebody like that that's not necessarily going to get a ton of separation when it comes to speed but he's such a good route runner and Nikiel Harry just isn't that to me. I just don't see that from him. I do not like him very much. I could absolutely be wrong, but first blush, he's not my favorite. This is the draft, maize. No one knows that. No one knows anything. I think, I know. The thing about Harry that I like is like what I said at the catch point, body control, all that, but I definitely understand

all those concerns. His production is kind of hard to ignore also, but at the same time, like college, it's not, it's not the end I'll be also. Yeah, these, this is, these are the questions that I think you have to ask yourself with like a lot of these guys. And it's what makes the draft so just impossible to predict. All right. Let's run through these two tight ends that you mentioned. I'm not sure how much there is to say about T.J. Hawkinson.

Like, you love him, don't you? Why wouldn't I? What is there not to love about his game? He's athletically, he checks every box you could possibly want. He's plenty fast enough.

You know, it's not as if he's a lumberer. He is a willing and able and dominant blocker at times. I just think that if you look at the best offenses in the NFL and you look at the teams like what Shanahan does, you look at what the Patriots do, just so much multiplicity when it comes to personnel. And I just feel like a guy that can do what T.J. Hawkinson can do and can be two different players at once depending on the situation. I just think there's so much value in that. He gives your offense such a hard to predict feel to it. He's pretty. If he went to Green Bay and got to play in that Shanahanian system with Matt O'Fleur, I would be so, so upset. Yeah.

I mean, a lot of people are mocking him there. I think, what is it, 12 or 13? And it makes a ton of sense. That's exactly why I like him a lot. And the question is with the tight end position, because historically, tight end just hasn't been highly valued at that, you know, that high in the draft. I mean, there's been a few outliers, Eric Ebron, the most recent, I think. and, you know, going back all the way to 2000, there's been a few top 10 guys,

but I think what he brings, like you said, his ability to be on the field for all three downs and factor as a blocker, factor in as a dynamic pass catcher. He's not just a pass catcher. Like he has yak ability. He's very athletic. He's agile.

He's tough. That's why, you know, there's shades of George Kittle there. I don't think he's the same athlete as Kittal, but just his utility in the office. offense, I think, is very similar. He's a really good athlete, though. I mean, his 40 time doesn't match up with kiddles, but I mean, his vertical and his broader really good. He moves well. To me, he's Tyler Eifert, if Tyler Eifert was a better blocker. That's, yeah, that's a very good.

I think that's a good, you know, con. Obviously, stay healthy. But yeah, I mean, like a dynamic pass catcher, a guy that you can use in the red zone. Um, you know, like you said, in the Shanahan system, like, he's the kind of guy that could get a ton of yards after the catch because they, they manufacture like tight-end, you know, ability to run after the catch and all that. So I like him a lot. Did you watch, were you able to watch Fant too?

I did watch Fant. One more thing about Hockinson before we get to Fant. Yeah. This is a silly, stupid thing that might not matter. But I love how in play action, on play action plays, he has that little bit of hesitation

where he can sell blocks for like a one moment and then get out into routes very quickly. Like, Kittle does that extremely well. That's a tiny thing. But I think that, again, and these types of offenses where there's a ton of play action, I think it's a real asset, and he does it really well already.

Again, silly thing, but I just noticed it. Fant is just one of those guys that he's a weapon. I'd want him on my team any day. I just see the Patriots taking him at 32 if he's there, understanding exactly how to use him and just wreaking havoc with it. He's not the same blocker. You know,

he's not as willing. He's not as physical, all of that stuff. And I think that's why he's not as valuable as Hawkinson is. But in the way the NFL works right now, I'd take him in a heartbeat. he fit my offense. Yeah, exactly. I mean, he kind of reminds me of O.J. Howard,

you know, just complete guy. Not as good a blocker as O.J. Howard. He's not, not as big a physical. He's not dominant. Hawkinson, like, Barry's guys in the run game and everything. Like Kittled did. Yes. I think Fant can be effective, you know, both as a blocker and as a past catcher. He's way, he's really dynamic, you know, athlete. He's, he's, the way he moves is crazy. I think he was, uh, let's see here. He was like a two sigma.

Yeah, he's a two sigma athlete in terms of the spark score. And so, You know, his athletic ability, his movement skills are off the charts. Just, you know, flexible. Kevin just perked up over there. Oh, yeah. I was thinking about a debate we had the other day about what our signals would be. What, what? Well, we would be.

Negative two? We had a debate in the office the other day. We were, like, the lowest we saw there was like a negative three and a half guy. There's a guy from Cal. No, there's a guy from Cal. There's a guy from Cal who's not particularly athletic. Right. Let's say that.

If you look it up, he's a non-nativele athlete. I'm terrified what my 40 time would be like right now. I really wouldn't even want to know. I don't think I would break five. What is Rich Eisen get? Like almost seven. Oh, 602. Excuse me.

He ran a six. I thought it was higher. Yeah, seven is like, yeah, that's not. It's like you felt that. I thought it was hired that. I'm sorry for persershing Rich. Rich has taken shots at our colleagues. on his show, so it's only fair that we come back at Richard.

I, no, I, I, I don't, I, trust me, I, I, I, give Riches do. That was a joke. All I was going to say was that, uh, I would run in a suit as well, but that's not for a shit. That's just what I like to wear. That was, that was why I wasn't taking a shot at Rich in this instance. Danny, I will tell you right now, I love you to death. You absolutely could operate five, uh, but I don't know, I'm not sure what the time would be.

But yeah, I'm fascinated. What do we do? Do you actually throw out five seconds? Is it potential 40 time? I ran in the, I believe it was in the mids four sevens, like in college. How long? I read my. It was about four seven high school.

So that's a long time ago. Yeah. That's why I said five. I mean, I don't know. I'll try and beat five and a half seconds. How about that? Can we do this?

That would be my goal would be five and a half seconds. I'm absolutely going to just tear my hamstring. When do you leave? Later this afternoon. Craig? I'm just going to do this in my slip-on vans. Let's do this. We don't really, the problem is where there's a lot of concrete.

around here. I'll be here for the draft. I'll run it. We'll try it. We'll try and find some. You didn't throw out, Mays, you didn't throw out five seconds as a potential 40 time. Because I'm realistic and I understand. Oh, come on. I know. I'm saying, I don't care about what you run. I care what Danny Kelly runs. I don't care what I run. Okay. That's

all we got. I will be back next week, so you guys have fun. I enjoyed my, I enjoyed my podcast. I'm glad I had one for a while, so we'll try later. All right. Now it's Danny Kelly and I. Yo. Maze is gone.

Yeah. So what we're going to do is we're going to look at the last two drafts, specifically the quarterbacks, and we're going to figure out what we should think about the 2019 quarterbacks when we're looking at the 2017 and 2018 quarterbacks. I have putting some context to this class compared to the last couple of class. I have one big, so I don't think that the rankings of the quarterbacks from both 2017 and 2018 are going to be much of a surprise.

Baker Mayfield would go number one again if we were your draft. right now. In 2017, Mahomes and Watson would certainly be above Chubisky. But I think that the details within that are pretty interesting. I have one big question before we even start here. If the Cleveland Browns in 2017 had drafted Patrick Mahomes, what does that change? Oh, man. Instead of Miles Garrett. So Baker-Madfield's on a different team. Well, everything changed. I mean, it's like the butterfly effect. It changes everything. That's what I'm asked. Yeah, it's crazy to think about. I mean, am I supposed to

to have a specific answer. You're supposed to just literally have the record and the stats for every single team in the last two years. Okay. No, I think, yeah, I mean, obviously that's, I think that's what makes, you know, quarterbacks always define each NFL draft. Right. Changes the history.

It literally changes the future in the history of the NFL every time there's a quarterback taken because they just have such an outsized effect on the whole league. And they get coaches fired or hired. Exactly. anything else. Everything almost is related to the quarterback position. There's a story in Bleacher Report today about Aaron Rogers and Mike McCarthy. And the crux of it is that when you read it, Mike McCarthy's not a particularly good coach.

And if he did not have Aaron Rogers to save him, he would not have been employed as NFL head coach still. And so I think that the failure of certain quarterbacks gets coaches fired, but the success of certain quarterback's irrespective of the coaching job keeps coaches employed. Oh, absolutely. So I think that's an interesting wrinkle. So let's look at 2017. Quarterbacks. Mitch Chubisky goes number two to Chicago. The Bears traded up one spot to get Trubisky.

Is that correct? Well, the first three quarterbacks were trade-ups. Right. Trubisky goes two to San Francisco. When I pick that was going to go to San Francisco, he goes two to the Bears. Mahomes goes to the chiefs at 10 from Buffalo, and Houston takes Deshaun Watson at 12 from Philadelphia via Cleveland. Now, we've litigated and relitigated the Jacksonville Jaguars taking over for and at number four.

That changes everything because any of those two quarterbacks would have been a home run. Corey Davis, Tennessee, I guess they believed in Marietta enough. Jamal Adams. I mean, the Jets should have taken Mahomers or Watson. Yeah. Come on. But to continue on with the whole butterfly effect thing, like, is Mahomes the same guy if he's not with Andy Reed and in Kansas? Well, so there's a couple of things with Mahomes.

Number one, Alex Smith had a lot to do with his initial success because Alex Smith was... He was able to sit for a season. He was just like a legendary mentor. He also had a personal quarterbacks coach, Mike Kafka, who essentially was his coach while Matt Nagy and Andy Reid dealt with Alex Smith in that current offense. So there were a lot of built-in advantages that Mahomes had with the Chiefs. Having said that, Mahomes is really freaking good. Right.

And he would have at least been better than... I mean, Jamal Adams is good. Go play. Okay, well, let me ask you this then, because we're trying to give context to how good this class is this year. Why the hell did the Bears take Trabisky and not Mahomes? Like what? The thinking at the time was, I remember, and I've gone back and read some of the scouting reports on Mahomes, because I always think that's an interesting exercise is to just kind of figure out what, I guess, the book on these guys was.

Mahomes. The book was he was a little reckless, right? Right, exactly. He was reckless. He played out of structure a lot. He was a sandlock guy, right? Which the NFL just loathed sandlot guys for some reason, even though they make huge plays. They just want guys that are going to play in their structure because you have to have timing and all that, whatever. That might actually, that narrative might be dying a little bit, I think, or at least lessening a little bit with like the success of Wilson and Mahomes, those guys. But yeah, I mean, those were the two main things. He was like playing hero ball a little bit. Obviously. It was because his team was giving up 70 points every game. Right. I mean, but he was a gunslinger. He was the definition of a gunslinger in the sense that amazing physical traits. But was a little wild.

I remember thinking to myself, like, even when the chiefs decided to move from Alex Smith to Mahomes at the beginning of last year, that it was a big change that had some risk because Mahomes, I mean, Alex Smith was legendary for not turning the ball over, right? Like that was his thing. He never turned the ball over. And Mahomes, like I said, the book on Mahomes was he's just a little bit reckless. So when you add in a bunch of turnovers or potential turnovers, like, how does that change their personality? Obviously, that worry ended up being completely absurd because Mahomes threw 50 touchdowns and he was just a baller. And he actually did protect the ball really well for the most part.

And so, you know, in retrospect, like hindsight's always 2020. But like the concerns about Mahomes were completely misplaced. And I do think the landing spot matters because they put him in a system that really, really fits his skill set. And they didn't ask him to play right away. But, I mean, looking back now, it's like, how the hell was Mahomes not the first pick of the draft? So the Bengals would have benefited from not taking John Ross at 9. Could have taken March on Latimore, could have taken Mahomes or Watson. I mean, it's amazing to me there were – this is Pro Bowl.

right. There were six pro bowlers in the first 13 picks. And then, I mean, it gets kind of, T.J. Watt is good. Buda Baker is good. And then you get down to the third round. And that's, you know, the 60 and below second, end of the second round. You get Juju and Alvin Kamara. But this was a top heavy draft at this point. And if you missed, I mean, I think that, so, you know, you look at three, Solomon Thomas. That's a guy who, yeah, it's better to have taken another player than. Solomon Thomas. Right. Exactly. For a net. Davis is fine, but probably not the fifth pick in the draft. Yeah.

Yeah. I just think that this is what we're talking about, where if you need a quarterback and there's a quarterback available, you should probably just take them. Don't overthink it. Yeah. Now it gets into this draft, Kyler and Haskins and these guys, where do you stack them against Mohomes and Watson? Coming into the draft.

coming into the draft, yeah, that's a great question. I think I'm actually higher, and this is probably has some of the lessons learned baked into it, like you said. Like you don't worry about some of the things that maybe people worried about as much back then. But I think as a prospect, Murray seems a little bit almost cleaner and more, you know, just like a safer bet. That said, I mean, there's still huge, huge caveats with all that, you know, Murray's height. I think is obviously a concern for a lot of people. His lack of, you know, he's like not very good frame. Not a very big frame, I should say.

And then people are worried if things just like go awry right away, he'll just leave and go play baseball. Is that a concern for you at all? No. Well, for some of it is, I believe. Could you imagine being a young person and wanting to see baseball? This isn't a discussion about you as a viewer of baseball. It's about him making.

You have to watch if you play professional baseball. It's unbelievable. There's so much baseball. It's kind of like the argument with Joe Thomas, where the worst thing that Joe Thomas had to go through was how much Browns football he had to watch. Like, if that's it, you think about just from a practical standpoint. Right.

Just watching a lot of baseball. You're 22 years old. Yeah, but you're making millions of dollars. I'm not concerned. To be clear, I'm not concerned about that. I think he's going to stick to football for at least the length of his rookie contract. Right.

But he's not going to be, what, he's going to flush out of the league? That's not a concern. I mean, that's just, you know, that's just one of those things. Look at Blake Bortles.

Big Bordels got a two-year extension worth huge of money, and now he got another deal from the Rams. It'll be worse than Blake Bordels. Well, yeah, that's true. You can just stay in the league as long as you want. If you're a quarterback and you're breathing and you were drafted high,

you can just stay as long as you want. So, looking at, answer your question, though. Like, hindsight, I think obviously I'd put my home's number one, Watson or Mayfield. Where would you take Trubisky? I mean, he'd be way down the list. I didn't like Trubisky coming into that draft. I think a lot of people didn't, and it's proven to be an accurate opinion. Would he be a first round pick and a redraft? Trubisky? Yeah. Oh, man, how desperate, how desperate are teams in this draft? That's the question, I think. I mean, he is a starter in the NFL, and he still has that upside. Yeah, would he be a starter?

I mean, yeah, man. Probably, yeah, like a late rounder. He's above replacement level. Yeah, so like a late round, first round. Right? Is he above replacement level? It's close. Is he a top 16 quarterback?

It's close. Probably not. I don't know, to be honest. That would be a fun discussion to have, like a lit to make that list. I don't know if there's, like, our Bears fans, even Bears fans are probably not very excited about Trubisky at this point. I know Mays is not. He is not.

Okay. So that tells you. Let's talk about the 2019 drafts in a scenario of them. So you have Arizona, San Francisco, the Jets, the Raiders, the Bucks. Are there teams you're looking at? You're saying these are teams that are going to regret passing on a quarterback. Because I think that the big thing when we look at 2017 is the Jaguars set their franchise back by not taking a quarterback. There's a couple of teams like that.

Are there teams right now where you look at maybe the top 10 and you say these guys, these guys are going to regret if they either don't trade up and get one of those two guys or pass on them for another position. So the Raiders, to me, are one. Derek Carr has proven over the last few years that he's just not going to, to me, I just don't think he's shown anything the last few years. There's obviously always circumstances like that, that affect all that. But to me, the way that the Raiders are building their offense, I think that's sort of tailor made for what Kyler can do in terms of the deep passing and all that. So if the Raiders pass on him and decide to just keep building around car, to me, that's like a Jaguars situation where they end up really regretting it a few years down the line. You could even still make the argument that Jaguars might end up regretting it again because you've got Nick Foll.

That'd be kind of a funny development. It'd just forever the Jaguars just picked wrong and didn't impassement to a quarterback every single year. Okay, so let's talk about 2018 for a second. Yeah. Because if you redraft, Baker still goes number one. Okay? Right. Just this draft?

Yeah. Does Sam Darnold go number two? I think so. You do? Yeah. Over Josh Allen. So there's a couple of things about this draft that we need to talk about. Number one, someone like Darius Leonard would go way higher.

Someone like Derwin James would go way higher. Layton Van Derrash would go way higher. Quentin Nelson at six probably stays where he is. Denzel Ward is really good. Oh, yeah, he's really good. F.I. Bradley Chubb did well as a rookie. He did very well.

There's a lot of things about this draft that we know just after year one that are really interesting me. But the quarterbacks, let's just do a ranking of the quarterback. So Baker's number one. Would you say Darnold's number two? Yes. Okay. Now, here's where it gets interesting. Would you say Lamar Jackson's number three?

I think it's real close. With Russian god Josh Allen? Yes. They are essentially, I mean, they essentially had the same strategy last year. Except Josh Allen would throw 70 yards down the field and every eight times Foster would catch it. So here's the deal. They were both inaccurate. They both struggled as passers and they're both extremely dynamic runners. The Ravens clearly are building around his ability to run. They're zinging while the rest of the NFL is zagging in terms of they're building their whole full. philosophy around running the ball.

They have no receivers on the team. I don't know. To me, they're essentially, I mean, they're very similar in style and the way the teams are using them. So I can't say, I mean. Josh Allen was rushing at the ball at historic rates from a yardage standpoint. Yeah, yeah. And the Ravens were running the ball at historic rate from just a volume standpoint.

I think that the, it was actually incredible when you saw the list of teams were running the ball as much to the Ravens. I think they were all from the 1970s, quite literally. And so both teams sort of, as you said, ziggged while everybody else zagged. I don't... These teams are doing it like... I don't know. I don't know in five years.

I don't know. To be honest, re-drafting after one year is very strange. I think that Baker Mayfield is going to be the best quarterback in this class. I have no confidence on anybody else. Josh Rosen included. Josh Rosen was put into the worst scenario ever. And so I want to talk to you about that because when you look at the 2019 NFL draft

Is there someone that you look at who could be this year's Josh Rosen where they get drafted in the top 10 and they're just dropped into a horrible situation? Maybe you look at a team like 10, the Denver Broncos. I think just talking about like the players, there are some similarities, I believe, in Haskins game with Josh Rosen

in the sense that Rosen, the story on Rosen, is he's a very good passer when he plays on time. When he drops back, hits his back foot, let's the ball go. He's got accuracy. He's got timing. He throws, you know, with good anticipation, all that stuff.

Like, there's all those traits that made him that 10th pick. The problem is when he gets pressured or, you know, is forced to move off his spot, things start to fall apart a little bit. And he was obviously pressured way, way too much, like at a rate much higher than I think any of the other, you know, rookies or whatever. So you have to kind of take that with a grain of salt. But I think the same deal could be said with Haskins. He's not as good when he's forced to move off his spot. He can move around the pocket and do his thing. But I think his mechanics and stuff fall apart a little bit when

he's asked to move around. He's not a mobile thrower, if you will. And so if he gets into a situation where he's just getting pressure in his face all the time, a lot of quarterbacks are going to fail, but he could especially have trouble with that because he's very much to me a timing. and rhythm passer, if that makes any sense. So I think there's some similarities there. If he falls into a team that just has a terrible offensive line or doesn't have enough weapons to get around him,

it could go bad really quickly. And he doesn't have a ton of experience with dealing with those kind of issues just because he was on a good team last year, very good offense, well, that's weapons. So Baker is the opposite of that, dropped into, after week nine, once you Jackson was fired,

dropped into a pretty good situation. Right. And now that situation's even better with O'Dell Beckham and the situation around him and a year in Freddie Kitchens' offense. So my question is, is there a matchup here where a team could draft a quarterback this year and you could say they could have the immediate success that Baker had from in the second half of this year? Going back to the Raiders, I think if you, like, say either Kyler or Haskins ends up with the Raiders, they've done actually a pretty good job of, you know, obviously, you know,

they traded away some guys that a lot of people were last. at, but they added Antonio Brown. They added Tyroo Williams. They've added some speed to that offense. If they end up, they've got two extra first round picks so they could add even more talent. But, you know, just looking at what they have as a foundation for a rookie quarterback, I think they could be a type of team that could take a jump if they get a guy in there and put it, like, drop him into that offense.

There's potential there, I think. Antonio Brown is game changer. So I think that's one that kind of stands out. I mean, obviously, if the Buccaneers move on from James, I don't think that's going to happen, but they have very good skill position players. I don't know, but the Broncos to me don't seem... I mean, they've got some good young talent at receiver.

Manuel Sanders is coming off of an Achilles tear, so you don't really know what his deal is. The offensive line is always a question there. So to me, they don't stand out as a particularly, like, attractive landing spot for a rookie quarterback. Is there anything else that stands out when we redraft these quarterbacks that we'd talk to before we wrap up?

I want to ask you what your opinion of getting back to Josh Allen. Like, is Josh Allen a franchise quarterback? I don't know. I don't think so. I don't think he's a franchise quarterback, but I don't think he's like... He's not the worst option. He's not Nathan Peterman. Like, I think that we...

I think that they feel good about the bills, feel good about what happened last year. I think that, you know, remember, he was the third quarterback, taken. It wasn't like he was trapped first over Oliver Baker. You know, he has a lot of weaknesses. He still has, but at the same time, he could chuck the ball down the field with just legendary confidence. And they've actually added a few guys. They've added a few guys. Absolutely fit that structure. I am putting Josh Allen and the John Gruden, I'm ready to believe anything zone. Okay. That's fair. Our boss refers that as the Tyson zone. From on the field perspective. Both Gruden and Josh Allen are in the Tyson zone in that respect.

Keeping your mind open to whatever. Well, I just like, if John Gruden won the Super Bowl next year with Dwayne Haskins, I'd be like, yeah, that's fine. If Josh Allen threw for 50 touchdowns, all of them over 30 yards, it'd be like, yeah. Is Trubisky in that camp, too? No. I don't think Trubisky's ceiling is nearly as high because Josh Allen at least has this ludicrous arm strength that in a weird way just should. Josh Allen would scare me. in a very peculiar way

if I was a defensive coordinator. I think we're on a Josh Allen tangent right now, but... A Josh Allen tangent is exactly the place we should end. Danny Kelly. Absolutely, yeah. Thank you for joining us. Robert Mays joined us earlier.

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