The Ringer NFL Show - Richard Sherman, Desmond Trufant, and QB Prospects With Daniel Jeremiah (Ep. 94)

Episode Date: April 10, 2017

The Ringer's Robert Mays and Danny Kelly discuss Richard Sherman's availability (02:00), teams that could make the trade (07:00), and Desmond Trufant's contract extension (12:00). Then Daniel Jeremiah of the NFL Network calls in to analyze Deshaun Watson (16:30), DeShone Kizer (33:30), and the value of Davis Webb (43:45). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Download the Tunein app for free and start listening today. To The Ringer NFL show, my name is Robert Mays. I'm a writer at the Ringer. We've got a fun show today. Daniel Jeremiah is going to join us a little bit later to talk about this year's quarterbacks. We're going to break down some individual guys. Talk a little bit more generally about quarterback value,

all that good stuff. Before we get to that, we are welcome by the ringer's own. Danny Kelly, Danny, how are you? I am doing great, man. How are you doing? You know what? Not a complaint in the world. It's beautiful here today.

As soon as we're done recording this, I'm going to go work outside because I'm apparently a child and I still really enjoy that. The Cubs are raising the banner at Wrigley Field today. There are really no bad things going on in my world. Thank you for asking. It's a good time to be alive. I'm happy for you. Thanks, bud.

That means it means the world to me that you're in my corner. So before we get into the quarterbacks with Daniel, I wanted to have you on because a few kind of housekeeping news items that I feel like we should address. And one of them is very near and dear to your heart. You wrote about this last week for The Ringer. We haven't had a show since then. So I wanted to chat about it with you. Richard Sherman is apparently available. And we've learned more details about that over the last week or so.

Originally, it seemed as if he was the, the Seahawks were the ones that were trying to extradate. some value from him, get what they could for him. But now, based on other stuff we've heard, it seems like Sherman is the one that asked the Seahawks to start exploring this. So as we've sifted through this scenario, walk me through your emotions. How do you feel about what you've learned about this, what's going on here in the last week? Man, it's been a really, really weird year just for the Seahawks and Richard Sherman in particular.

I mean, obviously last year, he had like two or three pretty major. like blowups on like the sideline he the first time around he got into a shouting match with chrischard after the see oxy have a touchdown pass to i think it was julio jones against the falcons early in the year um that kind of turned into a shouting match with cam chancler and you could see like it was more than just like it looked like more than just like a friendly like disagreement you know what i mean like it was intense and so that was weird and then he went off on darrell bevel when you know bevel called a pass from the one one yard line again, you know, kind of dredged up the old history from the Super Bowl and all that.

And then he got into it with some reporters. And it was just a really tumultuous season for him. And so it was, that was just kind of like setting the stage for what's happening now where, you know, at first it looked like the Seahawks were kind of looking to trade him or at least pretending to look to trade him. Maybe like to motivate him or whatever. And now it's kind of come out that he's asking for a trade. So I don't, I mean, who knows what's happening? My basic just thought on it is I really hope they don't trade him because not only, you know, he's a really, really good player who's still, you know, functioning at the top of his game. It's not, I think a lot of people kind of thought he fell off last year. I don't think that's true. Maybe a little tiny bit, but he's still really, really good top five corner in the NFL.

So trading him, I think, would be really dumb not only because he's really good, but because they don't have anyone really behind him right now. I mean, Deshaun Shed towards ACL late in the season. he's not going to be ready to start the season. And I mean, Jeremy Lane's not really an outside guy. He's better in the slot. So, like, who do they even have? It's a bunch of guys who really haven't even played. So to me, it would be stupid to trade him.

So it's been a fascinating process because one, at first I thought it was just talk. And now it's kind of feeling more real. I saw Peter King actually talk today. I think it was that he said he thinks it's more likely than not that Sherman gets traded. So it's kind of feeling real right now. And I feel the same way about any talk about him falling off. That seems overstated. I think the problem more is that when he was starting with Seattle,

and he was really that number one corner in the league, people were thinking in that way. The Seahawks are playing a lot more of that cover three that they tend to lean on. Now they're just playing more man and he's coming inside often. And even when he's outside, he's having to stick with in breaking routes in a way he didn't when they play that cover three. So you're just seeing him exposed for the things he doesn't. do well more often than he had been in the past. I'm not necessarily certain he's a worst player.

They're just doing different things. And I also think the league is going that way just as more of a trend. You're seeing more teams play man more consistently. So his value probably isn't what it would have been three years ago. But I do think that he is still a really valuable piece. And when you look at his contract, it's not onerous. He's going to be paid just based on his based salary, so not the signing bonuses that the Seac still owe him, about $11 million a year for the next two seasons. And if you look at the cornerback market in the league, that's doable. If you're a team that needs quarterback help, his contract does not preclude you

for making a play for him. Right. So, I mean, and you basically sum it up. It's like, to me, there's no sense in trading him right now. I mean, I guess they could be doing the sort of, you know, the Patriot style thing where you trade a guy a year before he starts to decline or whatever. but man, I think they're still really in their sort of, you know, time to win with like the, like the nucleus that they have on that team right now. It's still a Super Bowl caliber team.

And I don't know why they would want to try to start breaking that out. It just doesn't make any sense to me. But, you know, we don't really see what's happening behind the scenes. Like maybe the sort of the chemistry stuff is a bigger deal to the Seahawks than maybe that we know about or whatever. But yeah, I mean, like, he's perfect for their scheme. He's really, really good at their, the step kick technique that they do that that's kind of, I guess technically it's pretty difficult to master. He's really, really good at that.

And yeah, I mean, it just doesn't make any sense for me for them to trade him. So let's just play this out a little bit as a hypothetical, which I know will pain you, but it's still something we should probably do. Yeah. So if you're looking at what teams may be interested in which teams would be, willing to pay the price necessary, whether that's a first round pick, whether it's a first round pick and something a little bit later. I know that the Dorel Revis price tag a couple years ago when he was traded. It was a first and a fourth later on. And that's kind of been the thing

thrown around is maybe the baseline for what it would take. So take all those things into consideration, which team in your mind would be the one that would be the most motivated to go get him for that price? Well, I mean, right now, like the Titans kind of look like a team that have the, the ammo to do it. You know, they've got two first round picks. They still have needs. I mean, they sign Logan Ryan, but he, you know, is a good slot corner. So they could still add an outside guy and get way better in their defensive secondary.

I think they're kind of a team on the come up that they're still going to be competitive. You know, that could be a team he could be interested in going to in theory. So that that is kind of at the top of mine. Obviously, like the Patriots have been talked about. I don't know if they're going to be willing to pay. two corners that top money. But, you know, the Patriots are kind of hard to predict. So who knows?

I mean, past that, I don't really know, like, who else could afford it or who else would want to do it at this point. I mean, I think part of the thing, part of the reason the Seahawks are making it so public right now and kind of, you know, they've talked about it like five or six times in the media is because they want to, like, put it out there that he's available. And I think the end game is to basically tell him, yeah, we didn't, get the kind of interest that you think you maybe were going to get. Yeah, that's understandable.

What I'm looking at right now, just when you kind of see the intersection point of cap space and draft value, is these teams that like the Titans. I think they're the perfect example. They have those two first round picks. They have a defy a need of corner. And if they traded for Richard Sherman, that becomes a really interesting defense.

Logan, Ryan, Jason McCordy, just like what they've done is safety. I think that and that front seven, They have $40 million in cap space still, but we've seen from Tennessee recently that with the Brandon Cook's trade, they're not necessarily willing to part with some of these high value draft assets in the way that we think they are. They want to hold on to them. All players aren't the same.

It's not a one for one comparison. Maybe they've viewed Sherman as someone who's more worthy of a first round pick, but he's also making $11 million with Brandon Cooks is on his rookie deal. So I feel like even if you feel Sherman is a better player at his position, there are other things to take into consideration. So it's going to be interesting. I think they might be in play just when you think about need and cap space. I think the Colts are another team that is very, very needy for cornerbacks right now.

But this is Chris Ballard's first year? Is your first huge move going to be a splashy thing where you go get an $11 million cornerback for a high value draft asset? I don't know. So we'll see how this plays out. You know, this is one of those things where the draft is pretty much not a deadline, but that's going to spurring teams to actually make some moves. So maybe in the couple weeks as it ramps up,

that's when we'll see teams either stick their heads up or more names come up in terms of who's available or in terms of who's interested. But right now it seems like this is something that Cioxx are trying to put out there as much as often as they can. Like you said, they want people to know that he's around because they're trying to get something for him

and trying to do what they ask. So I'm sorry, buddy. This is never easy. When one of your long term, like I have seen him give me success, stars starts getting a little disgruntled. It's never an easy moment. I apologize for your life.

It's not going nearly as well as mine, apparently. Dude, we went through this with Marshawn Lynch, too, where, like, he was everyone's hero for a long time. Then he starts getting disgruntled, and then now it's kind of a more complicated legacy. I don't think anyone still harbors anything against Lynch, but when he was starting to, like, you know, talk about retirement and stuff,

and, you know, there was bad blood, sort of between him and the team a little bit. I think it was kind of complicated how people thought of him. So we're going through the same thing with Sherman now. It's just one of the things that how many people can you pay really? And the Seahawks have a lot of their top stars getting paid at a high price. So I don't know if they're looking to start to start playing for the future or what. But it's just weird.

As a Seahawks fan, it's weird to think about the Seahawks trade Sherman because he's been such an integral part of everything they've done. Totally. You know, Marshaun Lynch is obviously a hot button topic. I know they talked about that on the latest episode of GM Street with Michael Mardi and Tate Frazier. If you want to hear some Marshaun Lynch talk, please go listen to that show. I am sure that he will come up as the Oakland Raiders thing actually comes to fruition here over the next couple of weeks, which I am personally very excited about.

But, Danny, before I let you go, I wanted to hit one more piece of quick cornerback news. Desmond Truffant signed a very large contract with the Atlanta Falcons last week. five years, $69 million, $42 million, which comes out to an average about 13.8. And I don't know, man, I don't mind it. He is that good. I know he's had some trouble staying on the field. But when we look at Sherman's contract, it's interesting to see it through this lens where this is the going rate.

You know, if you are at top of the market NFL cornerback, which Desmond Troufant absolutely is, at his best, few guys are better. You're going to get about $14 million a year. Did this surprise you? And overall, what do you think about Atlanta's defense right now? I mean, it feels like it's a group we should be excited about. Oh, yeah. And that was kind of what I thought when I saw it.

I'm like, man, this team is turning into something. I mean, we saw glimpses of it last year. They're really, really fast. You know, obviously they're super young. And so they were learning kind of to play together and, and, you know, play more discipline and everything like that. But they're really fast. They really compete.

Dan Quinn, you can see his stamp on that defense already. And I think getting Truffat, locked up for the long term gives them a pair of really good cornerbacks, which is huge in that cover three scheme. You know, as we talked about with the Seahawks, it's just, it's really, really important.

So I think, you know, it's, yeah, it's the going rate for top corners. I think cornerback is still considered a premium position. So it's not that surprising. It's not that,

it's not like a shocking number to me. So I think that, you know, getting him locked up is big for them. He kind of plays that, he does play that Sherman role in the Falcons defense. So, it'll be really cool to see how much they improve next year because I think as we saw

towards the end of the year, they were starting to really kind of find their groove and, you know, they're a young, fast, aggressive defense. And I think they're on the up, they're on the up and up. And that defense, when we looked at kind of the huge improvements they made over the second half of the year, you know, they were pretty much a top 12 defense, past defense by DVOA over this last eight weeks of the season. And that was without Truffat. He wasn't playing.

And he just made more money. that either Boyer or Gilmore made in free agency. And it's not surprising. That's how good he is in relation to these guys. And you add him to that group. So now it's Alford, Truffant. You have Jaylen Collins who made really good strides in year two. Like that was one of those second year players they needed to get better.

And he did. Brian Poole, who was an undrafted free agent last year and just gives you depth at that cornerback spot. I mean, he wasn't a revelation in the slot, but he was solid. They could rely on him. And he's just now another piece. So right now you just look at the. roster they have.

They didn't have Adrian Claiborne at the end of last season, who's going to give them some interior stuff along with Brady Jarrett on those nickel pass-rush situations. You have those linebackers. You have those two safeties with Keanu Neal and Ricardo Allen. So now you signed Entari Po, you get an extra pass rusher here in the draft. Stuff gets real interesting, real fast with this group. And just throwing Desmond True Fop back in there is kind of an added bonus.

It's a little mind-bite. logway. I know. And I mean, I've always been of the belief that you can't have enough corners. And so the depth that they're building there is so, so important for a full season, you know, cornerbacks are typically kind of small guys and you're playing a high impact position because if you're getting run at on the corner, you know, you have to tackle. So I think having that many guys is huge and it'll help them, you know, throughout the whole

season as we saw last year kind of, and their defense actually, you know, this isn't anything to say against Truvon, but their defense did play better after. he got hurt just because they started playing as a team more. And, you know, just as the rookies just got better, frankly. And but bringing him back is going to, it's a big impact. I like, you know, I like the po move. I think that'll be really interesting. I don't know.

I think you get a nut, like you said, you get another top tier pass rusher. And there's plenty in this draft. Like, even in the early second round, there's some really explosive guys. So, yeah, they're a defense to watch. I, you know, that was my first thought when the true. on news came out was like, man, this team is turning into kind of like, it is reminiscent of the Seahawks when they first started kind of turning into a top defense. It's like you start locking up your core guys. And, you know, that's just kind of the way that Dan Quinn's going to go about it.

So I think they're on the right track. All right, buddy. That's all we got. Daniel's going to join us to talk about some QBs. Please go check out Danny's newest mock draft. It's going to be up on the ringer.com tomorrow. We are rolling forward with our draft coverage. It is going to be here before you know it. Danny, thank you very much for doing this. And of course, we will talk to you soon. All right. Thanks for having me on, man.

We are joined now by NFL Network analyst, Daniel Jeremiah. You can follow Daniel on Twitter at Move the Sticks. You can see him throughout the week on NFL Network's path to draft at 6 p.m. Eastern. He does this in a way that I really appreciate and in a way that I trust more than pretty much anybody else. So we wanted to have him on to chat about the quarterbacks. Daniel, how are you doing? I'm doing great. I'm finally starting to poke my head up here and see the, see the, see the,

finish line. I feel like I've been running with my head down for a long time, and now it's time to realize we're almost there. And I don't do this constantly, but even when I kind of dig into the tape world for a few hours, you do feel like you don't see the rest of the universe. I mean, anything could go on while I'm really digging into this stuff. So the fact that you do it all the time, I mean, it feels like, you know, frozen caveman. You go away for a day and then the world is completely different. Yeah, I've got, you know, the weekends right now, because we've got past the draft going five days a week in LA, and I live about 100 miles away. So it's a lot of commuting during the week.

So I get what I can done during the weeknights, but I have really at this point in the year just going heavy, heavy in the weekend. So the little routine I've got now because you're in your office and it can get the pressing just being inside. It's beautiful outside out here. So my little deal I have with myself is I got to get three guys done. And when I get three guys finished, I go outside and shoot jumpers. with my son.

He gets his son outside and hang out with him. We'll play a game at 21 or just mess around outside, shoot around. Okay, now I've got to go back in and watch. And so that's kind of like my little, my little doggy treat for finishing my task. I was going to say, do your kids recognize you? Do they know who you are anymore? It seems like there might be a little bit of confusion at this point. They're young enough.

Yeah. Yeah, no kidding. I just keep telling. We're almost there, guys. We're almost there. We'll have a great summer. I promise. All right.

Well, let's dig into this. With all these positions, we've pretty much started with the two guys at the top. and going back and forth about what your preference would be. And quarterback-wise, I think the consensus that's solidified is pretty much Trubisky and Watson in some order. So I wanted to go back and forth about those guys with you. Just first and foremost, what is the pecking order between those two guys in your mind?

Yeah, and this is the interesting thing. Like, with this group, and I would put Kaiser in there as kind of the third member of this trio, I had gone from what I watched last year, I thought one thing. Then I went and saw Kaiser live early this year, I did not see Trubisky live. I did see Watson live. So, like, throughout these different phases from last year to this year,

and then the more I watched, the more I watched, I was just going back and forth, back and forth. I mean, they're totally different guys. But finally I got to the point. I'm like, look, I've watched seven or eight games on each of these guys this year. You know, with Watson and Kaiser, I've watched all their stuff from last year. I just put it to bed. I ended up settling on Watson, and I'm like, I can't do this more inside my head any longer

because I think they each have their strengths and their weaknesses. And I'm, to be totally honest, I wasn't overly enamored with either one of them. But I'll give you the reason why I settled on Watson. Start with the things that I think are that you've got somebody that's, when you talk about the off-the-field stuff, you got somebody that's very intelligent from everybody that I talk to. You got somebody with an incredible work ethic. You've got somebody that's incredibly tough.

I mean, you can just hone in and watch the Alabama game and look the shots he takes in that game. so we check all those marks. The leadership, all that stuff is great. I think he has enough arm strength to make the throws you need to make at the next level. Not a huge arm, but he has enough. He meets that threshold. He's a good athlete to be able to get out of trouble.

So those are the things on the plus side of the ledger. Now, when you go over to the negatives with him, you talk about some of the offense that they played in. A lot of first-read throws. when I went through and charted all of his third and six plus throws over the entire season, I jotted down. I said it felt like about 80 to 85% of his throws were his first read. Yeah. So, you know, pretty much pre-snap decision-making, not a lot changing after the snap.

And then you look at some accuracy down the field. He had some issues there. And then you look at, especially early in the season, the decision-making underneath. I thought when the post-snap looked changed a little bit, he got locked on and he forced some balls underneath. So he got the 17 picks, and when I broke those down, I had five of them as forced throw. He was usually just underneath coverage, not seeing it.

And he had the four tips before they put on him, one just poorly thrown ball accuracy-wise and one misjudication. But to me, it's the 11 combined picks that were either forced or just a plain simple poor read. So that's on the negative side. Now, to his credit, as the season went along, I thought he did a better job of cutting down on those. And as everybody likes to say,

you know, when the big moments, he played well. That's hard to ignore for me. And just on the very baseline level, just on the totally surface, watching that fourth quarter against Alabama, it's like,

oh, wow. This guy is just, you could hang your hat on him as a franchise and feel good about it when you look at that kind of stuff. And here's a couple questions just based on everything you just said. So the one read,

kind of knock on him, which I've heard for a long time. And when we have quarterbacks at this level, you kind of dig in a little bit more. You're more critical because you have to be. How much is that prevalent in college football as a whole? Is he unique in that way? Or do most guys play in that sort of offense in this version of college football? It's over 50%, you know, probably closer to 75% of the guys play in that. Now, the thing that's interesting, though, is if you, you know, you watch him, you know, here's the number.

So I watched, there was 86 total plays this year where he had third and six plus. So throws he made on third and six plus, I watched the cut up of 86 plays. Trubisky had 84 plays in that same scenario. So it's a sample size almost identical in terms of watching what these guys did. Now, when you watch Trubisky and break him down on the field this year, I thought he played better this year than Watson did this year. And there was a lot more full field reads with him. You see him get one to two to three a lot more often.

and then you do the Watson get there. It's under a lot of heavy pressure. Yeah, he's under a lot of heavy pressure. He falls off on some throws. His ball placement can be inconsistent. But, you know, the decision-making, you know, it is what it is. I know he's played one fewer game. But in that 84 sample play versus 86 sample play,

the decision-making was better. When you break down all of his interceptions, the 660 through, two on four reads, two or just poor throws, one tip and one force. So in terms of the poor read and the force, you had 11 of those such mistakes with Watson and with Trubisky you had three.

So from just purely on the field this year, working through progressions, accuracy, anticipation, I'd give the edge to Trubisky. Now, the problem with him, obviously everybody's talked about the sample size, the one-year starter, I do think that's a big deal. Although the people will make the case

on the other side of the argument I think he had 40 fewer throws than Carson Winston last, you know, incoming in his career because Trubisky had played in some other games. But still, though, that sample size is a concern. And then, again, if I'm going to give Watson the bonus for playing well on those big stages and those big games, Trubisky coming down the stretch, man, it's just hard to get through it when you look at a guy that lost three of his last four games and had opportunities to make plays in those games, made some, didn't make enough.

And, you know, I just, I don't know. At the end of the day, I ended up just saying, you know, I'm going to go with Watson in terms of the floor that he brings, whereas Trubisky, I think, does have a little higher ceiling, but I think the floor is a little lower as well. So in terms of where these guys could go, you know, Watson, even if he's the number one quarterback in this draft, most of the people that have done mock drafts or are talking about value overall. He's not going in the same range as the quarterbacks we've seen the last few years. Where do you think he ends up going? And I guess the same goes for Trubisky if you think they're that

close. Yeah, this is, I mean, it's darn near impossible to predict where these guys are going to go. Yeah. You know, because when you get down to it, the teams that would take them aren't talking. You know, the teams in the quarterback market aren't saying. So you're relying on people from outside, you know, that have, you know, sources inside those buildings and that information is not, the most accurate of all. So, I mean, literally, you know, there's so many people, if you talk to half the league, they prefer Trubisky, you talk to the other half, they prefer Watson. So there's no pecking order there.

And I honestly think, you know, San Francisco at number two, I mean, I tend to believe that they would rather have Kirk Cousins and wait for that next year. If not, they'd be in the mix for those quarterbacks in next year's class. But would it totally shocked me if they took one of these guys that do? Probably not. and it wouldn't even shock me if one of them were there when the Saints picked at 32. So I can't recall a year where we've had this much guesswork. It seems like 2014 was probably the last year that there was this much uncertainty about the range.

You know, I think that everyone kind of conceded that one of those guys would go high. They just didn't know who it was. And we knew Clownie was going one. But after that, it was a little less certain. And then when Bortles went three, it really could have gone. any other direction after that? You know, was somebody going to trade up again? Is somebody going to do it in the middle of the round?

And the idea that those guys didn't go until the end was very strange. So it feels like we're dealing with the same variety of outcomes here, where one of these guys could go at three. I mean, the bears need a quarterback. Not necessarily that high because they sign Clinton, but they need a answer for the future. So it just feels like anything is on the table, which makes it fun.

I mean, who the heck knows it's going to happen in the next three weeks? I mean, I talked to an executive with a team this last week. This happened in a span of one day, literally within a couple hours. I talked to one executive, and he said, they said, there's no way to Sean Watson will get out of the top ten. There's no way. Seems that. That feels right. Yes.

So that's what he says. Hang up the phone, go about my business. Two, three hours later, talk to another executive with the team. I don't know how Sean Watson goes in the first round. How do you bounce that? I got no idea. That's why it's like, it's fun for us to kick this around and talk about it.

But like from an analyst perspective, look, I can give you the order of which I have these guys. I think Watson is my 27th overall player. So the questions, you know, are these guys worth top 10 picks? No, I don't think they are worth top 10 picks. And I can give you the order in which I have them. But then when you're trying to sit here and predict, you know, which of these teams are going to do it,

it's hard, man. This year is really hard and especially hard because the draft is so loaded at so many other positions. So to me, if you're picking in the top 10 and you take one of these quarterbacks, number one, you've elevated them beyond their grade. You've, number one. Number two, you lost the opportunity to take a great player at another position, a great player, you know, with very little risk. And number three, you've, for all intents of purposes, pulled yourself out of the quarterback

market next year, which if everybody comes out that we expect is going to be first period of this group. So, I mean, that's like a triple whammy. And that all of that makes sense. And we're dealing in logic now, which is probably the way you should. But then you get closer to the draft. And logic has no place in any of this. I mean, that's exactly what happened last year. No one thought Jared Goff was the best player in the draft last year. No one thought Carson once was the second best player. But teams, as we get closer, there's a sense of desperation that creeps in and it starts to affect decision making. And what you're talking about with missing a surefire defensive player, look at what

Joey Bosa just did. That's exactly what happened last year. You had two quarterbacks go one to. The only difference I would say, though, Robert, if you look at last year, like for me, just for me personally, I had golf and went as, you know, 9, 10, you know, 8, 9. Like, so it's a little bit different. I thought, I had, I had Went first, you know, I had a golf, but they were in that, they were in still due to top 10 players.

So I don't have much of a problem if you're, I mean, now the trade that what the Rams gave up is another conversation. But to move a quarterback, you don't have one and you move a quarterback up five, seven spots, you know, over a different position. I don't have a problem with that. This draft, we're talking about guys, I think are, you know, 27, 31, 33, like in that neighborhood. Now you move those guys from that range all the way up to the top. It's not. But that's the whole thing is that it's often not good business when we have. have certain people and their voices getting involved here.

If you're a team in the top 10 and you're a quarterback needy, I mean, there aren't that many, which is interesting. But if you see Watson start the fall and your owner is even slightly involved in this process, he knows who Deshaun Watson is. And that matters. Like a guy who did what he did on the stage that he did it on, that eventually creeps in. When's the last time we saw a quarterback that was Heisman caliber, national championship game winner, that sort of guy, not go that high.

I mean, it just doesn't happen very often. I mean, I know what, with, I don't know, what's the guy's name, but now he's in Buffalo. He was in Ohio State. Okay. Yeah, Cardel Jones. Cardel Jones. Cardell Jones. Like, he, you know, he did it, but it wasn't, Watson was, has been a staple of college

football. It's been a while since a guy who was that around. I was in, I believe I was in Baltimore when we picked Troy Smith, right? With Troy Smith? Yeah. during that time. I remember at some point in time late in that season after a big Ohio state win, a prominent, you know, Collins have the number one pick. They need to just take Troy Smith. Don't let him get away. And it was like in the scouting world was like,

let's not get caught up in the team success. This guy's not a first round pick. And obviously ended up going, what, fifth round six rounds. It was all said and done. So I think there have been some instances where there's the reputation at the collegiate level, where there was a little bit of a disconnect there. I mean, the other one I would think of is, the one that could be comparable to Watson, probably closer than any other comp would be. I was in Baltimore the year Brady Quinn came out. And we all kind of thought Brady was going to be a top five pick.

And we had, I believe we had McNair at the time, obviously, but it was getting towards the end. And, you know, we didn't think there's any chance that Brady Quinn would be there. And I remember he just kept, once he went on that slide, we were kind of a little bit in scramble mode, you know, because we were picking in the 20s and we thought, oh, we need to make sure that we, you know, if we think this guy can be really good, we don't want to pass on a young, you know, franchise quarterback. We just didn't think he would, he would be in the range. And then Cleveland ended up trading back up and taking him.

But, you know, that could be a situation where a team's picking in the 20s this year. And, you know, maybe they assume that Watson's going to be long gone and could find themselves doing similar homework. Yeah. No, I mean, you look at what they have on their roster. They've got a bunch of bridge guys. So they need somebody to be a foundational piece for them moving forward, especially when you look inside that division and no, you know,

luck's not going anywhere. Marcus Mariotta's not going anywhere. And Jacksonville's starting to build a pretty talented roster. It hadn't come together yet, but they're getting there. You don't want to be caught, you know, in a situation where you're constantly trying to trot out the bridge quarterbacks. They've got to find one. All right.

Before we dig into the rest of the quarterbacks, let's take a quick break. Major League Baseball is finally back. As the new season gets underway, the Ringer Podcast Network has baseball fans covered with the Ringer MLB show playing for free on the Tune app for the month of April. Download the Tune at at for free and listen to Ben Lindberg and Michael Bominb break down baseball's biggest stories throughout the opening month of the MLB season. As a bonus for Ringer listeners, the Ringer Podcast Network has partnered with Tunein to get baseball fans a free 60-day trial of Tune in premium to listen to every live home call for every MLB game around the league. That means a lot more Pat Hewes. Cubs games in my life when I am on the road, which is what I need. You can catch the Ringer MLB show only on Tune in for the entire month for free.

And when you upgrade a Tune in premium, you can listen to live MLB games. Just go to Tune.com slash Ringer and subscribe. Download the Tune at for free and start listening today. So let's dig into the other guys a little bit here. The person that just watching him play football, watching him throw, especially early last season those games, the guy I like the most is Kaiser. You watch that Texas game and it's like, man, can this guy play? There's so many of those plays, it's like, hell, I can work with this.

And then later in the season, it all changes, which is, I think it makes him just a fascinating overall quantity. I mean, it's, I have no idea where you land on him. Yeah, you know, it's funny because I came into the fall with him as my top quarterback. I get out to some games the first week before the NFL season starts and I have to work on Sunday. days I can get out to games that first weekend. And I went to the Notre Dame, Texas game. And that was the, I mean, I left the stadium. And I think I wrote about it after the game.

I said, this guy, you know, I think he's the favorite for the Heisman trophy. I think he's the best quarterback in his draft class. I don't, we're kind of forbidden from saying how high they're going to go because they're underclassmen working for the NFL. But in my mind, I thought this kid's got a chance to be the number one overall pick. Yeah. And then it just went downhill quick. And you look at, you know, I think you can find excuses in there for him when you talk about, you know, your center's gone, your left tackle's gone, your number one receiver's gone.

You played in some awful weather games, you know, on and on and on, drop passes, this, that, and the other. But there's also, you know, plenty of blame you can throw on his shoulders just in terms of locking on receivers, not being purely accurate. that's the you know he's got he's got a shoulder some blame for that and then you know I just thought okay one thing I know about him is he's he is a outstanding thrower you know like the rest of it okay we can work through but he is a big so smooth yes but then we get to the combine and I don't care about you know connecting on balls down the field with receivers you've never seen before but there were more than a few you know curl route stationary target he was just they went it all over the

place. And you sit there and go, okay, he's under 60%. That's not a great predictor for guys going forward. When I looked at it, when you look at guys with the losing record, their final year in college, guys that are under 60 percent, there's only two of the 32 starters in the NFL that fit both those criteria. And one of them is no longer starting. Jay Cutler was one and Trevor Simeon is the other. So that's not a great neighborhood to hang out in. So I, I, I, I, ended up, I ended up dropping him down a little bit. I thought he lost some confidence. If you can rebuild that, you can rebuild him from the floor in terms of some of the footwork

stuff that fell off. Man, he could be really, really good. I mean, he's what you want from a size and arm talent. He just, man, it just, it all, it all fell apart for him this year. He made a throw in that Texas game. It was probably the most impressive throw I saw from that game. It was actually an incompletion. Yes, when it was incomplete, it was the one where he threw it into traffic in the red

zone. Yep. It was, that was the best throw I saw I'm making that game. I saw that. It was like, God, that's a throw. I mean, it was just, he made a couple of those. And the thing with him, and we could to probably say this about any prospect, but his strengths become his weaknesses when you take them to a certain extreme. He's incredibly comfortable in the pocket. He's never frantic. And that's the, but at times, he's way too comfortable. He doesn't hit things that are quick. He allows windows to close when he probably should have pulled the trigger early. so he's never going to be out of sorts, but at the same time,

when you take any virtue to its logical endpoint, it becomes a deficiency. And with him, it seems like that happens a little too often. No, I agree with you 100%. In fact, I just pulled up my report, and it's funny the way you mentioned that.

So this is a section from my report. I love his poison the pocket, but he needs to speed up his clock at time. He takes unnecessary sacks. He is very poison, uncomfortable in there. But at some point time, you also got to get things rolling a little bit.

You know, park it in there. You got to show a little bit more urgency in your play. And that's something he needs to work on. And it's funny because, you know, I think that if I had to choose, I'd rather have the guy that's poised.

You know, that's, I would rather have the guy that's not frantic. And then it's funny that one of the other guys that's right near him in this conversation is Patrick Mahomas, who is literally the opposite player. He is just watching him is fascinating. And first of all,

I watch the, Oklahoma game again this morning. That is not football. It is a meditation on football. It's like if you were riffing on the idea of what football is, but you watch that game and even though it resembles nothing like actual quarterbacking, it's hard to walk away from that tape and not be intrigued by him. Yeah, you know, it's funny. I have, I have my game notes from in another notebook, but I have my notebook out here for our conversation. That's kind of when I went through those those cutups right so I did the same thing for him third six plus from home so here it was 93 plays so a few more than trisky and Watson but 93 pros third six plus so these are just the

sample of the notes that I wrote always off script always off platform huge arm no no way transfer completely reckless tough to figure out mansell question mark that's what I wrote down on my that all sounds right I mean that's like it's amazing So I looked at his interception reel, 10 picks. Four of his interceptions, I classified as three flies up. I don't know if you played that when you were a kid, but we played growing up. You take a tennis ball. You could be in the pool or whatever, and you get all your friends down on one end

and one person throws the ball up as high as they can and the first person to catch the ball three times, you know, wins. That's literally what he does. He's got two guys from his team, two guys from their team. Just play it up high. Just play at 500. That's it. That's it. So, you know, he had four of his picks were simply just up for grabs, you know, go get it.

Hopefully my guy can win. Three were poor reads, two tips and one poor throw. Just got away from him. But, yeah, I don't know. I mean, traditionally, it is tough. It is tough to transition to the next level when you don't play in structure. You have to be able to be successful inside structure. Arm strength, outstanding.

He can move around. He's a good athlete. I thought just watching the pro day footage, I thought his feet are a long ways away. He did not look comfortable at all. Throwing to his left, he struggles. But yeah, I mean, he's got a huge arm. He is not scared.

I give him that. And he's a play creator. But I just, there's, you know, outside of Brett Farr, it's tough to find guys that live outside the structure and have long-term success. I think that if you're trying to spin it the most positive way you can, just in terms of overall armed talent. and it's mostly changing arm slot and still being able to maintain velocity

and make plays. There's like shades of Matthew Stafford and some of the stuff that he does, but that's the most optimistic way you could possibly spin it. Matthew Stafford is actually a real quarterback who understands how to function. Patrick Mahomas is the furthest thing possible

from that right now. I could understand taking him as a project, but by beyond that, spinning him as a first or high second round pick, that's really hard to do. Yeah, that's a little rich. for me. And I did. I saw some of those plays, and I think I even tweeted out at one point

time I'm throwing, said, you know, he can look like Matt Stafford on some of these. But the, you know, in scouting, one of the things you do in reports and then when you're in the draft room is you want to be able to kind of paint that picture, you know, and be able to let the people in the room

that maybe haven't seen him understand what he is. And so, like, the image I have of him, the best way I can try to explain his playing style is he's on a balance theme. And sometimes he falls off on the side of excitement and most of the time it's off the side of irresponsible. So, I mean, it's just like,

it's a balancing act for him between those two things. But he's, I'll give you that. He is, we used to say, just get a, get a soda, kick your feet up on the desk and enjoy it because it is fun tape to watch. The one thing I'll say that gives him a slight edge over a guy like Mansell is that

he looks the part more than Mansell does. Like just in the pads. He's 6-2-2-25. his arm is, it's much better. He's got more zip on it so he can get away with some of the nonsense to a slightly larger degree. But it would still worry me to no end. And the guy that is, oh, go ahead.

No, I was just going to fear when your most successful plays have nothing to do what was called, you know, like it's not to do with a play call. Yeah, absolutely. And part of that, I think, is because he faced so much three rushers, a lot of eight guys back. So he's having, he has to improvise a little bit just because there's so many bodies back there, but that's still not what you want to lean on. I mean, that is not the recipe for sustained success at all.

Look, another thing that you'll give him a pass on. I mean, I got a text from me, and he was telling him, I said, how'd he look? He said, ah, you know, he struggled a little bit here or there, but let's be honest, he's not throwing to rice and that Taylor out here. Yeah, that's very fair. That's one of my favorite parts of watching quarterbacks is digging into some of the receivers and just like the guys that pop out. I was watching Trubisky, and I'm like, this Switzer kid can play.

play, man. He could be on my team any day. The other kid, Mack Hollins, is really good, too. He was a nice deep threat for him. He's huge. He popped his hamstring at the Combine, but he's 6'4, 220 pounds. He's got a 4-4 kid, legit, and he he's one of the best special

teams players from a receiver that I've seen, covering kicks, and then you got Switzer, who's one of the best returners. So, you know, normally you think of a quarterback coming from North Carolina, you know, I don't know, what is he working with? Another receiver in Bug Howard, it'll be a free agent. You've got two running backs that'll be in camp. So, you know, watching, we kind of, some people ding him for all the talent that he had around

him, you know, Trubisky had a pretty good group too now. Yeah, absolutely. And watching those guys, it's very clear. So I want to dig into one more guy here really quick before we get out of here just because you wrote something this week that I thought was particularly interesting. The guy who Patrick Mahomis actually unseeded at Texas Tech was Davis Webb, who, you know, really prolific Texas high school quarterback, but got hurt. Mahomis comes in, takes over the job. we've seen it a million times.

He transfers to Cal, big guys, 6-5 looks the part. And you talked to some executives this week. And one of them thought and kind of stood by the fact that he thinks Webb is a first-round pick. I mean, what is your reaction to that? Yeah, I have different teams that think he's going to be the best quarterback in his draft. So now that's not a sentiment that's held league wide. But I know at least two teams feel that way. There are two executives for teams feel that way.

The thing about him, when you start with some basic things, you know, again, I try and just say, okay, what can we write down as fact? And then we can try and figure out the other stuff. With him, you talk about prototypical. Very, very football smart, board smart. And they say, you know, the coaches that kick him out of the facility, like he's there 24-7. So he's all ball. He's all in on that stuff. So you feel good about that.

Leadership-wise, great. They love him from that standpoint. Now, he's not the most athletic guy. decision making at times can be an issue with him. Again, same thing. 100 total plays of him, third six plus. You'll see some impressive whole shot, but he falls off a lot of throws and does not have great pocket awareness.

So those are some things he needs to work on. But, you know, you just start with the basics, you know, with the size, the arm strength, the intelligence, the work ethic. That's what I think people are excited about. And then, to be honest, he did a nice job down to the senior bowl. I believe he might have been the MVP of the game the way he played down there being coached by Hugh Jackson and the Brown.

So there's some people I know that think if the Browns hold off in the first round that maybe this is their guy in round number two. And that makes sense. I mean, he just has all the stuff you want to work with. And it's not just that he has a big arm. I think that watching him for a couple of games that touches there in a way,

it isn't always with bigger guys, which I really like. So I think that he's just a functional thrower plus being that big. You know, I've seen some people just Osweiler is a name that's been thrown around a lot overall in the NFL recently, and people have mentioned him along with. I just think that he's more functional athletically than Osweiler is. Throwing the ball in intermediate areas of the field. Yeah, just different.

I mean, I think Osweller's is really long on everything that he does. And I think Webb has a little bit more twitch as a thrower, if that makes any sense, a little more compact and has a little more pop. And, you know, so I think, I think. Osweiler is, if you want to put them in a race, I bet you Oswald probably win. But, you know, neither one of these guys, you're not drafting them for their athletic ability. Overall, though, this class outside of Webb, the thing that really

struck out, just jumped out to me and was striking, everybody has a ton of functional mobility. I mean, Trubisky moves extremely well in the pocket and even outside of it. Underused. Under use. Yeah. It should have used him more that way. And when you consider, like, he moves like,

I mean, I don't even know how to, he's really athletic. I mean, like, Romo athletic. I mean, the way that he moves is really impressive. And that's the same with Watson, same with Kaiser. And Mojomis, even if it isn't in a good way all the time, is the same kind of deal. So that's kind of interesting is that there's one unifying trait that they all seem to have. Yeah, no question. I mean, the other thing, though, Kaya is not very mobile.

Yeah. You know, down the line. So he's more of a stationary pocket guy. Let's hit one more. And then I'm going to run to our production meeting. But Peterman, that's interesting. Yeah, Nate Peterman from Pitt, and let's go through the little project here again, third and six plus, only 69 total place for him.

This kid can climb in the pocket. He's got touch underneath and down the field. You'll see him work the full field working through Reed. The knock, you know, does not have a huge arm, an average arm for him. So from that standpoint, you don't get too fired up about the arm talent, but just quick mind, quick feet, quick delivery. You like those things. and the touch the displays.

Seven picks this year, three on four reads, two were tips, one force and one miscommunication. So overall, though, I thought with him, decision making was good, was solid. So you've got somebody there that to me is like, you know, some people, we've talked about it. We've compared him a little bit to Kirk Cop, a little more pop as a passer passer than Peterman. But I think he's a better version of, you know, like a Hoyer. I think he's a better version of somebody like that who, you know, maybe he's not. not going to be your long-term starter, but I think it's capable. Yeah, and that's a guy that, I mean, kind of like where cousins went, you know, that range

where you're looking for backup quarterbacks. And even a team like Dallas right now, they're kind of in the same boat that they were in last year where if DAC were to get hurt, they're in a lot of trouble. They probably need to draft a backup quarterback. So a guy that can come in and just be functional for you is important. And those quarterbacks matter. That is an actual position in the NFL right now. And if he's that exact type of guy, then that has value.

There's no doubt about it. Well, if anybody wonders about, and it's the one way you answer to this, if anybody doubts the importance of the backup quarterback position, everybody needs to remind themselves real quick. I think universally, we all agree, the smartest man in football right now, where's the hooded sweatshirt in New England. And he's probably had several standing offers for his backup quarterback with some serious value, and he doesn't deem that value worth parting with his backup.

Yeah. I mean, that's all. you really need to know. And the fact that teams are actually talking about trading for AJ McCarran in a similar way. And the Bengals are like, nah. And Duke Tobin said that the combine. He said, that is a position.

It isn't this thing where we think he has no value to us just because he's not the starting quarterback. That's not how you view that pecking order. And it's not how you should. I mean, it's that fast to go from potential contender to we are completely sunk because we don't trust the guy back there. So, all right, man.

Thank you very much for doing this. This was fantastic. I always love chat with you and there's no better position to do it about. So thank you for the time, my man. I hope you get to the light at the end of the tunnel sooner rather than later here. Yeah, let's just focus on getting a few jumpers up and then eventually we'll be a... There's nothing wrong with that. That's always a good thing.

All right, man, really appreciate the time. You can check out Daniel's podcast as well, the Move the Sticks podcast with Bucky Brooks. Again, he's at Move the Sticks on Twitter. He does fantastic work. Please go check them out. And we'll be back next week. We'll talk to you guys later.