The Ringer NFL Show - Rising Rookies, Great Value Guys, and the Twitter Mailbag Returns! | The Ringer NFL Show (Ep. 285)

Episode Date: August 22, 2018

The Ringer's Robert Mays and Kevin Clark link up to give their early impressions of Baker Mayfield, Josh Allen, and Josh Rosen (02:00), then list some of their favorite non-QB second-year contracts (21:30), and wrap up the show by answering some Twitter questions (38:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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all you have to do is enter promo code, Ringer NFL. Download the Seatkeek app or go right to seatkeek.com. To the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark. Kevin, how you doing, bud? I am fantastic. We're getting closer, Robert. We are getting closer. We're there. It's August 21st. We're We are recording this. This is a third week of the preseason. It's a dress rehearsal for everybody, including us. This is what a regular season podcast will sound like from us.

I don't. I hope that's not true. But we're recording this in the afternoon on August 21st as the world burns around us. So that's been an interesting kind of backdrop for the day. Now, hold it. That's not, that's no way to characterize my appearance on Calhurt. I heard what you said about Mitchell Chubisky and I'm not going to bring it up. We're not going to talk about that on this podcast.

It's out there. it was me and Colin together. We're both driving the Deshawn Watson as Michael Jordan bandwagon along with Dadbo Swinney. That's fine. I'm totally okay with doing that. I just feel as if Mitchell Trubisky is going to be Hakeem Olajuan in that situation. Well, and Patrick Mahomes is he Lajuan? No.

I'm not comfortable with that. Who's Mahomes in a scenario? The analogy no longer works. I'm not conceding that Trubisky is David Bowie. I'm not doing that. Sam Bowie. Sam Bowie. Whatever.

David Bowie. Mr. Chibisky was David Bowie. That would be a whole other set of problems. Sure. But we are not going to start today talking about last year's rookie quarterbacks. We are going to start off today talking about this year's rookie quarterbacks because in the preseason there's some interesting stuff to watch. I mean, I feel like if you're interested in fantasy, there's a lot of bottom of the roster

guys that could be intriguing, you know, watching them. You get the first chance to really see those guys in action, a lot of the rookies, et cetera. But the most important part of preseason this year especially has been. getting a look at this class of guys. And early on, I think that Donald and Baker looked fantastic in their first games. There were some mixed reviews about Josh Allen and Josh Rosen. Lamar has been kind of underwhelming since this has gotten started.

I think that he was always a guy that made sense that he was taken by a team that was probably going to sit him for his entire first season. He had the role as expectations in 2018 of any of these guys, except maybe Josh Allen, but that's a different story. So why don't let you throw out the guy that you have been? the most impressed with, and then we'll follow that up with the guy you've been most surprised with. Okay. So who have I been most impressed with? I think that the group at the top there, Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield have all shown me really good things. I think that the highs have been

incredible. I mean, even, hell, Josh Allen's highs have been really. We're going to get to that. Josh Allen's highs have been very, very impressive. The lows have also been interesting. And that's that's true of all of these young quarterbacks. You know, the way I view it, I've said it a million times, this quarterback generation is going to benefit just from the fact that it's really relatively easy to play quarterback in 2018 as opposed to 2013 or 2008. It's middle of the field is wide open. It's RPO's 70% completion percent.

You can scheme and manufacture a quarterback in a way you couldn't. So I think that most of these players will become really good NFL starters at some point. Sam Darnold, I suppose, is the one who has impressed me most. But I see a lot of good things from a lot of them. I think that Baker Mayfield's done some nice things. I just think that the way the Browns have approached Mayfield, which is basically banning him from the starting conversation, has been very interesting to me.

But he's going to play almost an entire half this weekend. So I'm really interested to see that because I really do think that he is the most, he has the highest upside of any of those guys in 2018. So he's picked first, obviously. I'm all in on Mayfield. Yeah. I'm all in. If he starts week one, are you all in?

So this is the conversation that I feel like I want to have about him. We're getting a little bit of ahead of ourselves, but, and we can do this now if you'd like. Let's do it. Who cares? My question now, watching him play the way he has, I understand the logic of bringing Tyrod in as kind of contingency plan. it gives you a certain floor no matter what happens with Baker. That's why you wanted him on the roster.

And even if you're having to pay him relatively decent starting quarterback money for this year, I think it made sense in your overall kind of trajectory as a franchise. But now, lay this out for me, what is the reason for not playing Baker Mayfield if he's ready to go? Is it just that it doesn't matter what you get out of this season and you'd rather just take out all the risk and all of the uncertainty and give yourself one more year to build a better support system for him?

Other than that, I don't know what the answer is. I don't know. Let me take some... I don't know how to say this. Let me take some bad points of view and defend them. Certainly, I've done that in the past. Yeah, would you just say... Yeah, yeah.

No, I'm saying you can make the argument from a... This is a football guy argument that maybe you need to rack up some wins because they're 1 in 31 in the last two years. That could be an argument. There could be an argument that Hugh Jackson,

just wants to win seven, eight, nine games to try to save his job. The easiest path to do that is to bring in the guy who's one, you know, who's put together a lot of good seasons in his career than Taylor. There's just less risk, I guess, and this is a risk. Less volatility. You see there's less, there's just less, it's a smaller like range of outcomes on the Tyra Taylor side, the Baker may may fill side to you. Yeah, exactly. And, and that's, that's the argument I could see being made inside Breweria. If John Dorsey, and by the way, it's not like John Dorsey, thinks they should start start Baker in week one.

He likes Tyrone a lot. He probably thinks the opposite of that. He really likes Tyrod. He mentioned me, they might sign into an extension, which I'm sure they won't do, but he did say it. And so I do think that they,

I think they see 2018 as a tailor year and bring Mayfield along a little bit slowly. Don't, even though it's a rookie league and it's a young quarterback league, don't ever

underestimate how much all coaches, And all football people are obsessed with experience, even though we know it's not that important anymore. And I think coaches, but here's my problem when you do these scenarios every once in a while where there's this guy in waiting. And the Bears saw it. And a lot of teams do. I was talking to some guys in the Texans today about it. Just what they saw in Deshaun and kind of that bubbling energy that putting him in the game would have brought. with the Browns, I think that they're in such a different spot that you don't necessarily run into that.

One, because I think that their temporary veteran starter is much better than a lot of these other guys have been. So they're not looking at Tyrod and being like, oh my God, this guy is garbage. How the hell isn't the rookie plan? I think Rosen is like that too. That's probably true. So this is not necessarily a Mike Glennie,

Tom Savage situation. If Teddy Bridgewater starts, it's similar to that. So that's totally fair. And I think all of these situations are similar in that regard. Also, I think that there's been such a wasteland of quarterback competency in Cleveland. Even talking to the guys there, I remember talking to Jarvis Landry and Joe Petonio about this. And just kind of the reverence, which they talked about, Tyrod Taylor, was like, it was pretty impressive. I mean, essentially, Joe Botanio's just like, this dude, this dude went to the playoffs last year with not a good team.

like this is better than what we've had. This is okay with me. And the fact that the roster, it seems like, is doing more than kind of towing the company line. And they legitimately believe in this succession plan over this two-year stretch, that's important. Because if you haven't convinced your roster to be patient and the veterans on that team to be patient, that's when the mutiny starts to happen. And I feel like Cleveland personality-wise and the players they've chosen have done enough to make that happen, I don't know if the coach can keep it from happening.

I guess that's what I would say. It's interesting to me because so many of these things have been, so many things in the Cleveland have been brought about because they want to change the culture. One of the reasons John Dorsey told me, they went out and got a Demaris Randall, a Jarvis Landry, and those sort of guys, Tara Taylor, is because they wanted to announce immediately

and before free agency that they're not going 0 and 16 again. And it's going to be a concerted effort to try to win as many games they can this year and then that in turn brings the price down on free agents both this year and next year. And then it's like, okay, we're not joining the worst team in the league. We're joining a team with veterans who we like.

And by next year, presumably Miles Garrett will have developed a handful of those young, talented guys will look like real starters and they've built something for next year. So that's the reason when they went out and got those guys. They wanted to announce themselves as a regular

functioning NFL team. And I think it will work, and I do think they believe in Taylor, at least for the short term. I totally agree with you. It just to me, every time I watch Baker do anything, it's like, oh man, I cannot wait to watch this dude play football every week.

I just think he's really special. His traits as a quarterback just stand out to me in such a pronounced way. He reminds me so much a breeze, and I know that's kind of a trait comparison, but there are so many elements to his game, and I'm like, oh, God, the way he is able to look down field, the way

his maneuvers the pocket, It's just so much of it is so cool. I was talking to Sage Rosenfelds about this. I'm not sure if I mentioned on the podcast or not about Mayfield's throwing motion and about how his ability to torque with his upper body and not move his back right foot mitigates his size. It's the same way that Jimmy Garoppolo throws. There's only like three or four guys in the league that do it, like maybe a handful. And it's something you can't really teach. And it really is antithetical to how most players are taught to throw a football and a baseball.

and he just has this mechanical soundness about him that very few quarterbacks have. And when you combine that with the feel and the instincts and everything else and just the crazy, crazy accuracy, it's hard not to get excited about him. And then he starts doing stuff like the John Dorsey video today and I become just all the chips

in the middle of the table. I'm ready to go with this. It's going to be really fun. And you combine that with Miles Garrett and a couple of other of those guys, those are some funny dudes. The Browns are going to, when the Browns get good,

That group of players are going to take over the world. I totally agree. So you know John Dorsey. You guys have, you guys have chatted several times with the last couple of years. I was there and talked with him in Cleveland when I was there. The day I was there in Cleveland, it was seriously like 96 degrees. And that dude is just sticking to that sweatshirt, man. There is nothing that can get him off of that thing.

I'm sitting there in shorts and just a t-shirt just dripping in the end zone. And he's just walking past me with a hat and that's. sweatshirt or not. I was like, how are you doing this? And he tried to say that it was light enough that it wasn't a thing. And I was like, nah, I'm not buying that. I do not know how you're surviving right now. What do we think about the Jets battle?

So, the Teddy thing is fascinating to me. I just think that him being good again and them making that bet for $5 million and possibly getting a high pick out of it, it could go so well. I mean, I did not, I didn't like it when they did it. I'll admit that

readily. And good on the Jets. I mean, it's a good use of resources and cab space if they can trade him for something. But the question becomes,

where do you trade him now? And I know the conversation about that has kind of been focused on the fact that most of the teams in the league feel like they're set at quarterback as a starting group.

But I think that there are enough quarterback rooms elsewhere that you could look at that $5 million deal and just think of him as a breaking case of emergency option. Agree.

And one of, So one of the, and they're not, financially it wouldn't work. I was looking at it yesterday. But something I was considering was, let's say you're the Rams and you think that you're a Super Bowl team this year. And you don't necessarily believe that Sean Mannion can be Nick Foles in the right situation. Would a team like that, again,

hypothetically, if they had, say, six more, six million more in cap space, go out and get Teddy just to make sure they ensure their floors at a certain level. Is that worth doing? And I think it might be. I don't know. That's an interesting question.

Are we sure? I mean, here's the problem. A lot of these teams, like the Jaguars, are pretty capped out. So it's hard for them. That's the other problem. It's hard for them to take a flyer in those situations. Now, I think with Teddy, I think, so first of all, what's funny to me is that it flipped from why did the Jets sign Teddy.

Now the head scratching move is why they signed McCown for $10 million. Yes. And it's funny A very overpaid assistant quarterbacks coach It's funny because the Jets fans got mad at me Because I was like there's no reason to have three potential starters Because the reps just can't go around And I didn't I actually thought that maybe Teddy was going to be the one

That was sort of odd man out Just because of the recovery process Turns out they just gave Josh McCown 10 million dollars For no reason Did you see the story about his brain training? No, I've not It's the story of the year It's the story of the year

It's better than the Jalen Ramsey quarterback story It was from last month, and it's about how Josh McCown trains his brain. And there's a scene in there where he talks about, he does this thing where goodwill hunting appears to him in black and white. What? I'm just going to read from this. When his brain is performing at an optimal level, Goodwill hunting appeared in color. when he slipped below that level it turned to black and white

is Josh McCown's life an aha video because he's wearing a neuro brain training cap that's terrifying it's to monitor his brain activity and it gives him feedback it's the story of the year it's the only thing we should be talking about

is Josh McCown's brain training this has gone too far I just want these dudes to like drink more beer and hang out that would not be happy unless it involves that's a different type of brain

training. All right. Can we talk about Josh Allen now? Yeah. Josh Allen looks pretty good. Oh,

yeah. I mean, the highs are high. It's exactly what I saw in camp. The highs are high and the lows are kind of the lows

for AJ and McKern and Nathan Peter Minster. Who cares? Like, they all have the same lows. I think he absolutely will start. I agree. I agree,

especially, with that injury that basically even though that that injury to McCarran is not serious but it's enough to just knock him out of the competition for right now. Yes. And I think that when you get that far behind at this point in the calendar with the top 10 pick, you're done. There's just no reason based on how he's looked to not play up.

And I'm not saying that Josh Allen is you know, the second coming or whatever. When I watched him in that second preseason game, I just rewatched all of his throws today. there is some good and there is some bad. I mean, he's airmail, he's throwing some swing passes, the back hip of running backs, he airmailed a couple balls,

missed a couple intermediate throws. But then there are some other throws that it's like, wow. I mean, I understand that the arm strength can be overrated and people falling in love with it was kind of the issue in the pre-draft process. But that touchdown he threw to Rod Streeter over the middle when he kind of had to extend the play in the pocket in about the five-yard line.

He ripped that thing in there. I mean, that's the type of stuff where, I don't care if you can throw the ball through a human being, if it's not the human being you were trying to throw at. But if you can put a ball like that on the money, then I'm listening. And Heem had a couple throws that were extremely well placed with a lot of pace on him.

So I don't know. I'm willing to admit I was wrong if it comes to that. But I'll say so far he's looked better than I thought he was going to. Yeah. And the one thing I want to make clear about the entire Josh Allen experience is no one is rooting for him, aside from Bill's fans more than me and you, like that would be hilarious.

If he just dunked on all of us. Oh, it'd be great. Also, it's not like we stuck out our neck and we're like Josh Allen isn't looking that good in the draft process. So every single media member. So some guy, Josh Allen, just owning the media, that's hilarious.

Yeah, I'm into it. Own me, Josh Allen. I was going to say something about how that play looked kind of Rogers'-ish in the red zone. I'm going to hold off on that, just because I feel like that's one step too far for where we are right now. Rod Street or,

Streeter quietly born in 1988. I feel like he's been in the league for 10 years. He was on the Raiders since I was in like third grade.

He's only been on the Raiders since 2012. I mean he's on the Bills. He's on his fourth team now. Wow. Rod Strader's been the lead for a long time.

There was a Rod Streeter moment. I remember when we were trying to make Rod Streeter a thing. He's a big karate guy from what I understand. That's his big, that's his big thing. He's really good with his hands.

Josh Rosen very quickly. Josh Rosen is what I thought Josh Rosen was going to be. He just looks very polished. He made a couple throws up the seam in that second preseason game against Noah when's that. I was like, wow. Like, just really ripping balls to exactly where he wants to get his head around really quick. We saw that in college. Just as a very aware quarterback in his sense of being able to kind of direct traffic, understand coverage, quick decision making. I've been impressed with him, but I expected to be impressed with him.

So it's not necessarily surprising. The one surprise for me is that all these guys, look decent. I assume there was going to be one or two or it's like, uh-uh. Because as we've discussed, Lamar's having his issues. Sure, sure. But I mean, he doesn't look like a complete disaster. And one of the things that, as we've talked about, a lot of the coaches say around this time of year, you can't figure out who has it. You just cannot figure out who has it, but you can figure out who doesn't have it. And by the process of elimination, I kind of like all of these quarterbacks still. Yeah, we're in the same boat. I feel that way too. And that's exactly how I've kind of framed it. It's like, ah, I can't eliminate any of these dudes based on what I've seen.

Including Josh Allen. I didn't necessarily expect that. Josh Allen. Josh Allen. Here it comes. Just turning heads left and right. All right. It is value week during the NFL preview this week, which we always love talking about. It seems like Value Week is every week on this podcast. So it's not going to change the material here very much. Before we get into some of the value-based conversations we want to have today, though, we're going to take a quick break. This season, be your GM. Be a winning GM. Turn this season into a fistful of epic wins

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ZipRecruiter.com slash ringer NFL. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. All right, bud. So here's what we want to do today because we have kind of value-based conversations and how you build a team the right way all the time on this podcast. I think that's kind of the goal is to figure out the smart ways to go about maintaining an NFL franchise. It's also the conversation every NFL team has,

every single day. Yes, and that's what's most interesting about the league, I think, to both of us in a way. So the two elements we talk about all the time are, one, a good quarterback on a rookie contract is the most valuable asset in the league. I mean, we've seen what it can do for Carson Wentz and the Eagles. We're seeing what it's doing right now for the Rams being able to stockpile talent with Jared Goff. So we're going to put that aside.

We're also going to put aside just rookie quarterbacks or excuse me, rookie contracts in general. because again, we know it's important to draft well and stockpile guys on cheap deals. I googled like yesterday or this morning when we started talking about what we're going to do and I was like I googled biggest bargains in the NFL. And almost everybody when they do like the top 10, it's just rookie contracts. And it's like, well, no shit guys. It's the same list every time. It's not fun.

Like of course Adrian Amos is underpaid. I got you. Exactly. So it's just there's nothing to be gleaned there. Really we know what that means. So we're going to take a slightly different approach today. We're going to talk about, in our opinion, what are some of the most valuable non-quarterback, non-rooky contracts in the NFL? So these are guys that have gotten extensions or have been signed in free agency.

And whether it's the first year of their deal or the last year of their deal have provided some modicum of value over the life of their contract or we expect that they will. So we're going to talk about kind of a few contract archetypes that we feel are valuable. and what teams should be looking for when they're either resigning their own guys or going out and getting people in free agency. So, Kevin, let's start with you. Who is your first one that you want to throw out there? So the cap has been rising $10 million a year for six years. That's the explosion of the cap we talk about.

So essentially, every year, if you wanted to, you could add a $10 million, $9 million guy. And I feel like that's where the bargains are to be had because you can go out and get a really good player. And when we talk about not only is the cap rising, that much, but if you take a more value-based position, a more value-based look at a position. And a good example of this is if the Vikings had not gone for Kurt Cousins, but instead gone for Case Keenum,

you save $10 million. Boom, that's another $10 million player. Add in the cap rise, that's another $10 million player. You can stack these $10 million players, and all of a sudden, you've got a hell of a team. So I wanted to focus on that sort of range. With that in mind, Casey Hayward, making $6 million this year, next year, and the next three years he'll be making $10 million.

Gino Adkins, $9 million. I mean, he's in the last year of his deal. He'll get a mega contract, but $9 million for Gino Adkins is unbelievable. We'll get into that in a second. Keenan Allen, 9 million, injury prone, but still, when he's healthy, that's a hell of a bargain. And then sort of the, I guess you could say the bargains to watch, because we don't know what they look like. Honey Badger at $7 million.

Sheldon Richon in Minnesota. for $8 million. Those guys, if they are themselves this year, those that we're talking best contracts in the league, best second contracts in the league. There's a couple others, you know, Adam Thielen, obviously, which you're going to get into.

Antonio Brown, completely separate conversation, but for 2018 is cap number $7.9 million. Just from a 2018 team-building standpoint, that's amazing. It explodes over 20 starting next year, but if you're looking for 2018, you're going to want to talk about Antonio Brown.

So I just feel like the more of those guys, the sort of middle class that everybody else neglects. Two years ago, and we're writing the story about Tom Brady, Tom Brady's contract is an incredible bargain. It is the only thing that rivals a good rookie contract as far as value in this league. He could be paid $10 million more than maybe more. If he hit the open market, God knows what he'd make. But just from the Patriots, you could command a lot more money. And what the Patriots spent that money on is this range we're talking about. about $8 to $11 million.

Nobody makes more than Brady, but a lot of guys make just less. And that's how you win. That's how you stack talent on a roster, unless you're going to be the Seahawks and just hit on a bunch of third, fourth, fifth round picks. So let's stick into some of this. I feel like what you said about Honey Badger, especially in Shelton Richardson, it doesn't, it's so not hard to find examples just like that from recent really good

teams. The ones I'm thinking of are, even last year, that's exactly. the range that Alshan Jeffries signed for. Yep. It was a $9 million deal. It was one year. I think that when you, it requires your team to be at a certain point on its path to a championship for it to usually be worth it.

If you feel like you're a team that's close to maybe Super Bowl contention, but being able to win your division, being able to make some noise in the playoffs, and you're looking at a low risk option that can add. some upside to what you can be on either side of the ball. Those are great contracts to shoot for. And that's why I love the Honey Badger thing in Houston. I just feel like his best case scenario and what he can give to a defense

that already has a decent amount of talent, you do that 10 times out of 10. And I'm writing about this for a little while from now, but I think it's interesting, and we're talking about, he's just a free safety for that. He's not doing all the stuff he used to do in Arizona. He has one specified position.

And what he's given to that defense that already has Jonathan Joseph on the back end, Kareem Jackson, who's seen a lot of football in his day at the other safety spot, you have a secondary that now has so much collective knowledge combined with a pass rush that can literally wreck games. That has the makings of one of the more surprising units in the entire NFL in my mind. And he's also doing a ton to help Deshaun Watson kind of figure stuff out in year two. just bringing in a guy that has that sort of stature and is still willing to kind of put in the work

is kind of invaluable. One of these guys, Richardson or Honey Badger, we're going to be talking about in April on this very podcast and just saying how the hell did the league let this happen? Now Honey Badger says he took less money to come with the Texans, but if anyone had offered sort of fair market

for a good Honey Badger, he wouldn't have been able to take a $7 million dollar contract. I mean, I think there's... I don't know, man. As I talked to him, I don't know if that's true. How much you think he turned down? $3 million? He turned down multi-year deals that were, I think, pretty, not small.

You're supposed to, I mean, you can turn down multi-year deal. I would say the most he gave up was two years 20, right? I don't know, man. How quick he was to dismiss to me the idea of ever playing for a team north of the Mason-Dixon line is it was instant. like, nope. He's like, I got multi-year offers, but I'm not playing in the cold ever. There goes. There goes his leverage. It's, I mean, he was very, I, it's really seemed like he had no interest in playing anywhere that it's ever going to be cold consistently. Wow. Yeah. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it's, he was adamant that he's like,

he's like, I don't like, I was not, Ricky Rubio's thing. Rookie. Ricky Rubio didn't want to go to Minnesota because it's cold. That's possible. But yeah, Tyron was, when I asked him about, he's like, I got multi-year offers, but they were in cold weather cities and I'm not doing. in that. What were the cities? So he did not say that that I could not pry out of him. Oh wow. So, but that was our conversation a couple weeks ago.

So, all right, let's get into Adam Thielen a little bit. Because I think that Let's do it. This is, this speaks to two different things in my mind. One, let's first dig into the numbers first. Adam Thuwen's cap hit in 2018, $6.1 million. Pretty good. He is the 10th highest pay.

player on the Minnesota Vikings and the 30th highest paid receiver in the NFL. And the 256th highest paid player. Correct. In the NFL. So that is less than he's worth. That's correct. So, I mean, that guy is at worst, a top 12 receiver just based on talent alone at this point.

His career is 27 years old. That contract was signed by a local agent for a local guy. from Minnesota. He went to Minnesota Mankato. He had just kind of broken out. He's a former practice. He's a opportunity. Let's sign you now. And I think they understood what kind of value they could get out of it. I almost guarantee you that that will be restructured after this year. But all of those elements are part of the way that you get value out of guys. As you say, all right, we're going to make a commitment to you right now before your value hits its peak. and we're going to try to make that work for us.

And it speaks to one other thing, and I know it's something you and I have talked about a bit recently. That facility in Minnesota, the culture in Minnesota, everything about what's going on with the Vikings right now, people will take less money to be a part of it. Everybody's rowing in the right direction there. I just kind of like it.

I kind of want to play for the Vikings. The Diggs contract is the same way. He took less than he had to because he didn't care about hitting free agency. And this shit matters. Yep. If you can convince guys to not even care about hitting the market because you've made a place for them that they want to be, that is how you maintain players up below market cost.

Can I say something? Seattle did for years. Honey badgers should just look into the Vikings because it's a very warm facility. A lot of like hot tubs and stuff like to work to recover. It's the one position they don't really need. No, but I'm just saying if you're the honey badger, you could you can be above above the the Mason-Nixen line. Yeah.

In terms of like, it's a tropical climate within the, in our like the indoor practice bubble. So you'd be okay. And they play indoors. They have so many. I was surprised by the amount of cliff bars everywhere, which is just heaven for me. So many.

So many. That's just heaven. That's all I want. I would only sign with the team with just a plentiful amount of cliff bars throughout the facility. All right. Let's get into a couple more of these. You talked about Gino Atkins.

Yeah. was the one of mine. I feel like another one. He's due for a payday. But that's his thing where, you know, he signs that deal five years ago, I want to say. And he's making on average about $8 million a year as a very effective penetrating defensive tackle when the market for those players has more or less doubled from that A.A.V.

I mean, you have guys like Fletcher Cox making $16 million who knows what Donald's going to make. You've gotten significant value out of Gino Atkins over the life of that contract. Awesome. I feel like the Bengals actually have a lot of good contract. it's a shame to me that they were never able to have sort of all their elite players on good deals at one time and then put it together for a run because they've had a lot of talent.

2015. 2015 Bengals team. I agree. They were one thumb injury away from a nice little run there. To this day, I believe that they could have won the Super Bowl that year. I maintain that to this very moment. Who's your next guy? One more potential bargain that I kind of like

because you have Adam Thielen, who's the 256 highest paid player in the NFL. Who's 251, Robert? I don't know. That's a good question. Richard Sherman. Wow. I'm not saying, by the way, Malcolm Butler is 259,

but that contract escalates. It'll be 13 by next year. But Richard Sherman at 6.1, if Richard Sherman is half of Richard Sherman, 75% of Richard Sherman, that's a pretty good deal, dude. And we talk about this, and I think it's overstated every once in a while, but I do think it's important, is as you're taking kind of incremental steps as a franchise, bringing in guys like Richard Sherman as you're trying to take step number two, is that doesn't have value. Like, he will have an impact on that team that goes beyond whatever his on-field performances this year.

Yep, yep. I mean, that's that's it. And it's a culture thing. I mean, it's, I kind of like what they're doing in San Francisco. And I think that's the kind of thing where if he's healthy and I have no idea if he's healthy. But if he's healthy, that's the kind of deal. We're just sort of lumping in with those guys and saying, okay, this is what, why the hell was Richard freaking Sherman available for this much money? A couple more guys I wanted to throw out in my realm of the world. The fact that Mitchell Schwartz makes $7.7 million. after what Rob Havenstein just got paid yesterday is a crime. It just is an absolute crime. He is probably the best right tackle in the NFL. He has been that for a couple years. And I mean, breast right tackle in terms of like the guys paid to be such, Lane Johnson is making much more because there was that bridge situation

where they're trying to get from Jason Peters to him at left tackle. The guys that are paid to be right tackles, no one is a better value for performance in Mitchell Schwartz right now. I mean, that guy is just, I mean, you could set your watch by him. He hasn't missed a snap in how many years. I mean, he is such a solid player, and I feel like Chiefs got an absolute deal there. Another guy that this is the same kind of deal as Gino Atkins in a way. And I think that similarly, they had some injury issues, and that may have driven down their price a tiny bit.

But Jason Kelsey, you know, is not making very much money this year compared to some of the best centers in the league. He was at 7.2. He was at 6.2 last year. He's at 6.5 and 7 over the next two years with no dead money on his deal over the next two seasons. And this is when you sign a guy to a huge deal, six years, this is what can come of it, is that you can get fantastic value for him in the latter years of those contracts when the cap explodes the way that it has. So those are two guys on two of the better offensive lines in the league that are just completely paramount in how these teams perform and where their strengths are. Yeah, I mean, that's that's it.

And this is how you win a Super Bowl. You have to hit on your picks, but then you win a Super Bowl by just having a bunch of value contracts. The Seahawks run as an elite team is over. But what we just saw over the past five years is a masterclass in how to build a team owner of the 2011 CBA. And the Eagles just finish it. I mean, like, that's it. All right, before we move on to a couple of your guys' questions from Twitter, we're going to take one more break.

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Exclusive student discounts also available. The weight is nearly over. Football is almost here, which means it's fantasy football season. And Fandul has never been more fun or easy to play. If you're not a fantasy expert, then Fandual is clearly the best place to play. Fandul is something for everyone, and there are more ways to win than ever be. before. Don't believe us? How's this sound? This season, Fandul is running a free $250,000 survivor contest. This is the biggest free survivor contest ever. Here's how it works. You pick one

team to win each week, and you can't reuse that team again for the rest of the season. This locks before week one, so don't miss your chance and sign up now. To get into that free $250,000 survivor contest, just go to fanduel.com slash the ringer. That's fanduel.com slash The ringer. Plus, new users get a $20 bonus when they make their first deposit on Fandul. Come play with me at fandul.com slash the ring. Before we get out of here, we've not done Melbag questions in a while. Let's do it. This was a good time to do it. There's a lot of preseason stuff.

So we're going to take a couple of these before we hit the road. We're going to start with John Police at J.P. Trace 98 on Twitter. He said, which team do you think we have the most inaccurate perception of? Is there a team you expect to be much worse or much better than conventional wisdom? Ooh. So when he says we, he means the public. Yeah.

I feel like the conventional wisdom on the Browns has shifted so much. We can't even really discuss that. They don't even count anymore. That's one of the... I totally agree. It's over for them. The bucks are going to be a disaster.

I totally agree with you. I feel like the two of teams in Florida that we just always write off as like, oh, shucks, they're fine, whatever.

There's average and forgettable. Yeah, they're the seven and nine dolphins of the seven and nine bucks. I think both of those situations could go south,

even further south than they are right now in a really big hurry. Yeah, what do you think about the Cowboys? They're one of the more intriguing teams in the entire league to me. I have no idea what to make of them.

I have no idea. Because if Zekul Elliott is 2016, Ezekiel Elliott, then they're a playoff contender. They're a freaking Super Bowl contender. Zhek Elliott is the best running back in the league. But I mean, that's a pretty big gift. The defense still concerns me. I really have questions about how many playmakers they have on that side of the ball even now. Yeah, of course. If they go get Georgia Loka, I think that could help them a little bit. I still think he's a good player.

I love George Lerick. It's so weird that they did that. I don't understand anything about the safety market, but whatever. The question about the Cowboys to me much more so than Elliot is how is that offensive lying in it? be health-less. Can Tyrone Smith come back? He seems to be feeling 100%. Both Travis Frederick and Zach Martin have had weird health scares over the last week. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So you've got those guys dealing with stingers and knee problems. And it's just like, if that's going to be a question going throughout the season going forward, then I have serious doubts about that team, period. The other team that I feel like I'm just further out on than most people because I kind of want to be one year, I want to do it one year too early and not one

year too late is I think Seattle could just be a dumpster fire. Everybody's mad at us. Why? Because we keep saying that. All the Seahawks fans are like, we're going to go 10 and 6. Fine. Go to go 10 and 6. Yeah. We don't, I know. When we say something, it doesn't mean, that doesn't make them go four and 12. We don't write the season. we're not the writers. This isn't this isn't television. Don't be mad at us.

I clearly hate the Seahawks. I've derived no pleasure from them in the last five years. They just built the most fun and interesting team over the past six years and we celebrated it all the time and then we decided to hate the Seahawks entire franchise. That's how it goes.

We constantly talked about how impressed we were with what John Schneider and Pete Carroll built until the day we decided to hate the Seahawks. How about, I'll throw out one more for you. I think we kind of see them as the 2017 version of them, and I'm not sure if that's correct. Do you think the Broncos could be kind of good?

I like Case Keenham a lot. I don't know about that roster, though. I mean, they're actually kind of a, with the exception of the quarterback position, they're kind of a low-grade version of the Seahawks, and that they just have a bunch of really good blue-chip style players, and then just a massive drop-off. Yeah, I guess we're kind of forgetting just how many players they've lost on defense. Like, you think, I think that the recipe to them being better than expected would be that you have the jump from whatever that was a quarterback last year to an average option like

Heem and then hopefully if the defense maintains. But no more Taleb, you know, your secondary depth is not nearly what it was. They fight as Taleb said, they fired all of the dogs. Um, if Chubb gives them a lot, then they've got. two good edge rushers and that's enough to keep you in games. But I don't know. I guess I'm not excited about them as I thought I might be as I kind of think about it a little bit more. That seems, Chubb and Von Miller seem like the kind of team is really excited about.

But I just don't think they have as completed unit on defense. I mean, obviously they don't have as complete a unit they used to. But I don't even know if they have the potentiality to be like a top five group. Even at their best case scenario, I don't know if they're a dominant defense. Yeah. I'm no no I don't think they're going to be a dominant defense how many okay let's let's back up here how many dominant defenses will there be this year Jacksonville Rams Rams Chargers maybe

Chargers maybe depending I mean I don't know what's going on with that health there Casey Hayward limped off today yeah Jesus Christ I forgot about that I I'm really gonna have to stop just saying anything I'm just gonna have to remove one move One man pod? No more chargers. There's no reason to talk about them anymore before like week nine. Okay. Okay.

So, uh, Eagles? Yeah, it's definitely there. And the Vikings. Is that it? Yeah. Probably. Yeah, I think that's fair. I think the, yeah, every other team that was pretty decent last year that you might be trying

to plan like another step forward for is actually probably headed toward regression. a team like the Saints groups like that. I feel like they probably won't be able to maintain the same level. So, yeah, I think that's a fair list. All right, what's the next question? Trey-Miller asks, which NFL coaches have the best and worst music taste? Okay, so let me get on a minor point that I've been making for a few years.

I think that all NFL head coaches stop listening and consuming new media at the time they became a coordinator. because once you become a fascinating point once you become a coordinator you have no time for anything you don't watch movies you can't listen to a new album

you definitely don't have Spotify on your phone you're not going to a concert and so everything stops that's why you get a lot of older head coaches who are really into say ACDC or Led Zeppelin then you have the 80

like your guns and roses you have those guys who are now in their 50s. And I probably bet there's a lot of Pearl Jam Grunge type guys now because they're in their 40s. And that's it. So it's really hard to say oh, this guy is going to like this

because they're not updating their music tastes at all. Like Jim Harbaugh at Michigan meets with Migos, but that's for recruiting. He's actually like Migos. Yeah, absolutely. So your point about when you became a coordinator is so spot on because have you heard about this Kyle Shanahan Lil Wayne thing exactly what I'm talking exactly what I'm talking the Carter 3 which

is a great album and means a lot to me came out on June 10th of 2008 okay Kyle Shanahan's first season as an offensive coordinator in the NFL was the fall of 2008 I look it's that's amazing not even it's not I'm not even excited being learned that because it's it's not even a theory I have. It's just a fact. You don't learn anything new. You no longer develop tastes from the moment you become a coordinator. When you're a quarterbacks coach, when you're a defensive backs coach, you're learning everything.

You're getting albums in the first day. After that, no way. Anything on this for you? So the other thing I'll bring up about this is that I've started to come around on Mike McCagnan, as we were talking about earlier. And doing some more Mike McCagnan reading this week, apparently. his favorite band is the replacements, which is just a level of taste I would not expect from someone in the football world.

Where's Mike McCa? He's from Jersey, right? Yeah, which is... The replacements have a New Jersey feel to them in some way, but also very much not. Like, they're a quintessential Midwest band, but I can understand why someone from New Jersey would like that. Mike McAggen, you'd pencil him in. He started in the NFL with a scouting under 1990. You'd pencil him in as kind of a Springsteen-Bon-Jovey, just typical New Jersey guy.

Yeah, but apparently not No, okay, there you go What's next? How do you feel about the Belichick-Banjovey thing? Do you feel like it's just something that we've had to live with for too long? You know, Belichick likes Kenny Chesney, which is the one sort of wrinkle to the coordinator rule

Because obviously Kenny Chesney was not around What do you think Andy Reid listens to? I could just imagine Andy Reid just being like a big steely Dan guy Uh, Andy Reid, great question I don't care because I'm on a site called No Shoes Nation and looking at a photo of Kenny Chesney with Bill and Steve Belichick. That's all we need. That's what this podcast brings to people.

All right. Next question. You love this one. Teddy E. Moss asks, how many Super Bowls does Carson Went start in his career? I love this question. It's going to make people angry. What's your answer?

I don't. Let's talk about it. Let's walk through here. So he started zero. Zero so far. He is in his third year. I'm going to guess he starts over the next 10 years one Super Bowl. I was going to say two, but I can understand where you'd say one.

Do you think the Philadelphia Eagles play in the Super Bowl next season? Like in this fall, in 2019, do you think they will be in Atlanta? Okay, so do I think they had the capability? Absolutely. Are there so many good NFC teams that it's hard to say with any certainty? Absolutely. That's sort of my view on it. The Eagles have the deepest and best roster in the NFL right now. That will not continue because of the realities of winning in the NFL. You have a four, five, possibly six-year window. So let's say Wence is under contract on his rookie deal. for three more years, then they'll sign them to a mega contract, and you'll start having to shed... Assume it'll be the year before. I mean, I think they won't let it get. You can keep the cap number low until then.

Sure. And so you start to just shed talent from there. And then it comes down to is Carson Wentz the best quarterback in the NFL to the point that he can overcome some of those salary deficiencies? I think he might be. I think in 2022, 2023, we're looking at 2021, looking at an absolute superstar of a quarterback. but I just think it's really freaking hard to build a consistent Super Bowl team

with when you're paying a lot of different guys and that's just the reality they're going to have in 2021, 2021, so I would just guess that he makes one in the next three years and then I don't know after that. I think he makes, I agree with you in the sense that I think he makes one in the next couple years and then I think that there's just one more like Carson Wentz gets back to the Super Bowl.

I'm going to guess one and a half, one and a half Super Bowls. I think one and a half is the proper over-under, which I think speaks more to how hard we think it is to get to the Super Bowl in the NFL than it is to, then we do about Carson Wentz. Carson Wentz is awesome. Howie Roseman is awesome.

Doug Peterson is awesome. Let's not confuse anything. We're both on board with all of those people. It's just hard to make the Super Bowl. Philip Goad asks which one non-quarterback injury in the preseason could completely derail a contender. Which non-quarterback injury? Mm-hmm.

Chargers Joey Bosa. Fair. Only, and that's not even if you count the 150 other seasonning injuries they've had this year. Or the foot injury he already has? The foot injury he already has. Okay, I have a question. I'm just posing it to you.

If the Jaguar has lost one of their cornerbacks for the year, what happens? Ramsey or Bois? Is that just such a, is that dominant defense just dependent on those guys being so good at covering married with that defensive line? Or is a defensive line so good that kind of a backup cornerback can be okay in that system? I think they can survive one of those guys. I tend to agree.

Especially if it's Boisie. Honestly, I don't think Jaywin Ramsey or AJ Boyer are the most valuable players on that defense. Oh, I agree. That's the reason that I'm going to... You're going to say Clay's Campbell is. 100%. Yeah. Just everything you can do along the line.

But if Clay's... I mean, that defensive line is such that... I mean, there's a lot of good players in that defensive line. They would still have... If they lost Clias Campbell, they'd still have a top five defensive line, right? Sure, but that's the thing is

with the way that their offense is probably going to take a step back, the fact that they didn't add much talent to that group outside of Andrew Norwell. Really, the projection the optimistic one is that you get better running the ball this year, which that's never something I get excited about in terms of like, is the offense going to take a jump?

So if the offense is going to be stagnant or a little bit worse in terms of overall production this season, you have to be a top three, top two defense in order to be another, like an AFC championship team again. So that's the type of small steps back that matter when you're that level of contender. Aaron Donald? Yeah, definitely.

I mean, their past rushes, such that they need him. They do not have guys that threaten you off the edge. And if they don't have him wrecking games inside, and it's going to be a problem. And you know the other thing? Everyone talks about the pass rush with that team. They need him as a run defender

because that group of linebackers is not something to be excited about either. So if you feel like you're going to be weak on run defense and you're not going to be able to threaten teams off the edge, you desperately need him. Okay. Alvin Kamara. They'd be okay.

They'd be okay. Even though you saw how much he added to the offense last year. Yeah, I think they'd be okay. Because here's why I think that. They would have to transition back to a different version of that offense, but I think they have the pieces to do that. Okay. I think that they can run the ball well enough with Ingram and that offensive line,

and I think bringing in Cam Meredith and what I expect from Michael Thomas this year, if Drew Breeze has to be somebody that throws for 5,200 yards, I still think he has the capability to do that. I feel like it's more dangerous to ask for that version of this team than the one we saw last year, but I still feel like they can transition to that mindset and be pretty dangerous. Okay, I have one more for you. Dionne Jones. He's so important to them.

He really does change the way they play defense because they do so much stuff to funnel throws underneath because he can clean it up. And I know when you look at the numbers of how much they give up to running backs, it's larger and just more, it's more robust, the average, the amount of receptions, everything else, then you would ascribe to a team with that type of speed at linebacker, but they purposefully let those catches happen in order to clean them up. And so if you took him out of that defense, you wouldn't even be able to be allowed to play the type of defense that you want.

And I feel like that's where you start to become kind of a house of cards. Yep. Yep. I mean, if you have to change everything you do because of one player, you're kind of screwed. As far as an injury goes. And that's the other one that I throw out there as a result of that. what Harrison Smith does for the Vikings

and just kind of how he defines their identity defensively and their ability to mask stuff and everything else, I feel like he would be an underrated one as well. I like that. This is a good question.

We should do more mailbags. Yeah, it's a really good one. It's a really good one. We'll do more mailbags. We will come back later in the year with more mailbags. For now, though, that is all we have this week.

As always, thank you guys for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer podcast network. We will be back next week, which is the last week. Hell yeah. Hell yes.

We're back, baby. That is pretty damn exciting to me. All right, guys, thank you so much for listening. We'll talk to you guys soon. If you're not a fantasy expert, then Fanduel is clearly the best place to play. Fan Duel has something for everyone,

and there are more ways to win than ever. Don't believe us? How's this set? This season, Fanduel is running a free $250,000 survivor contest. This is the biggest free survivor contest. contest ever. Here's how it works. You pick one team to win each week and you can't reuse that team again for the rest of the season. This locks before week one, so don't miss your chance and

sign up now. To get into that free $250,000 survivor contest, just go to fanduil.com slash the ringer. That's fanduil.com slash the ringer. Plus, new users get a $20 bonus when they make their first deposit on Fandle. Come play with us at fanduil.com slash the ringer.