The Ringer NFL Show - Rodgers Erupts, Teddy Keeps Winning, Lamar Stays Hot, and the Eagles Confuse Us | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: October 21, 2019

The Packers, Vikings, Ravens, and Saints are beginning to separate themselves from the rest of their divisions after decisive Week 7 victories. Then, Stock Up on the Cowboys, Lamar Jackson, Aaron Rodgers, and the Colts (2:00), and Stock Down on Mitchell Trubisky, the Bengals, and the Chargers. Finally, we throw challenge flags on NFL refs and predict tomorrow's headlines (43:40). Hosts: Robert Mays and Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the NFL show is brought to you by State Farm. When you need a game plan for protection, state farm agents are here to help. With personalized service, agents are available to talk in person, over text, or through the State Farm app. So go with the one with coverage and agents you can count on. Find an agent in your neighborhood today. State Farm. Talk to an agent today. To the Ringer NFL show.

I'm Robert Mays. Joined, as always by Kevin Clark. How you doing, buddy? Robert, you know I'm obsessed with sort of the week-to-week with flash in the NFL and just narratives that reverse themselves and things that were true one week and are not the next. We all have to be. I'm now obsessed with Stephen Cohen,

he works with the athletic, put a screen grab of, I guess, some chat they do with Seahawks fans. And literally half of the fans are saying that Pete Carroll has to be fired right now or retire. The game has passed him by. A team that was five and one coming into this week. And who's lost today,

I feel in no way dings their Super Bowl hopes and their MVP candidate is still in a MVP candidate. But it's, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Pete, it's time for you to go. So around mid-season, I feel like we start to learn some stuff, right? Yep. And I think that this week was an example of that. I feel like some of the teams that we felt pretty good about over, even before the season, and then over the last kind of month or so, really did start to separate themselves a little bit. And that's what I want to start with today. And I think that the four teams we should throw out are Green Bay, Minnesota, who you picked to win that division, by the way, the Ravens and the Saints.

I think they all had very impressive, decisive wins today. And when we're seven, eight weeks into the season and you have wins like this and we have such a backlog of information about these teams, I think you can read a little bit more into it. And that's kind of how I felt about pretty much every single one of those teams today. We talked about this topic before we saw the Eagles lay an egg on Sunday night. I think it's important, it's important, I think, to talk about the fact that, you know, when we start looking at week seven, week eight, at some point, you're just not a good team. And at some point, when we're talking about the teams that are separating themselves, we're talking about teams that are separating themselves from teams like the Eagles, okay? You know, something I talked a lot about last year with the Vikings was I kept looking for reasons that they were good. Even though they kept losing games, they shouldn't, even though they weren't putting it together like I thought they were going to do.

And some of the units disappointed me certainly. I mean, really all three phases of the ball disappointed me last year in Minnesota. But at some point, I have to stop looking for reasons you're good. And that's what I'm doing with the Eagles right now. I'm still looking for that glimmer of hope, the team that we picked to make the Super Bowl, right? I'm doing the same thing. Yeah. And those teams that we're talking about, whether that's the same.

Saints, whether that's the Packers, where that's, oddly enough, the Vikings, these teams have have separated themselves in a way that I think is quite notable. I mean, right now it's undeniable that they're, obviously New England is up there, obviously Kansas City is up there, but from Sunday's perspective, these are the teams where I'm circling and saying, okay, these guys are starting to pull away from the pack a little bit from their, their specific pack. We're not saying these teams are going to the Super Bowl or anything or they're launching in the conversation. What we are saying is, There was a lot of mediocrity in the NFL three weeks ago,

and these teams are not a part of that. I feel like we want everything all at once when it comes to the NFL. When a team has a new play caller, a new coordinator, a new scheme, we want to see it instantly hit. And it really does take time. I mean, think about the dialogue about Kirk Cousins three weeks ago after that game against the Bears, and then think about where it's at right now. I think it really does take a while to find your footing with a new offense, with a new approach, everything.

And I think that the Vikings and the Packers are two really good examples of that. You know, they have managed to sustain, for the most part, through their defense and winning ugly and on the Viking side, you know, running the ball a lot over the first five weeks of the year. And I think both of those teams now have found their footing offensively. And when you consider what they have on defense, the way they've played defense, and now you throw in, okay, these quarterbacks seem comfortable. They seem like they know what they're doing in that system. Now I think those teams are getting really scary. Yeah. So this is what we talked about when we found out the Packers defense is really good, really in week one, which was I was excited to see a team where the worst part of the team was the guy who is one of the best quarterbacks in the history of football.

Right. Like that's really good because that means eventually he's going to know what to do and things are going to get on track. We all saw this coming or at least I saw this coming. I wrote it three weeks ago that the kind of the Rogers breakout was coming. Once that happens, the Packers are going to be on fire. I felt that way, even though it was a lot less popular of a stance, I felt that way about Kirk Cousins. Because I'm not saying Kirk Cousins going to play like Aaron Rogers. I'm not even saying that he's going to play forever like you did on Sunday.

He was amazing on Sunday. But he is a competent quarterback. We know what Kirk Cousins is. And so long as he plays like Kirk Cousins has in the past, I know it's not Rogers-esque, he's not Patrick Mahomes. No one's going to confuse him for that. He's not Russell Wilson. But if he plays like Kirk Cousins,

if he's the best Kurt Cousins he can be, that team can win a lot of games. So I was a prisoner of the moment with the Vikings. I am more than willing to admit it. I was discouraged. Like watching that team and watching that offense, I was like, maybe he's just not the guy. And again, I think,

that I just didn't give enough credence to how long this stuff takes and how a month of games is not indicative of what's going to happen over the entire season. And I was so impressed with them today. And it's so you, I watched them last week. And, you know, I feel like the Eagle secondary is so bad and their defense has been so bad that it becomes hard to gauge what a guy looks like against them. Yeah. So I watched Kirk Cousins last week and I was like, oh, you know, They seemed like that worked well, but is this sustainable? And watching him today, they have a plan. They know what they are offensively and it's working.

And it took a little while and I gave up on it before I should have. But right now they are 100% locked in. I mean, they are a very, very scary team with an offensive identity when you consider what they still have on defense. So I actually think I'm of two minds of that because I I think that Kirk Cousins, I think this can be real. I think his talent can be real. But I also think the Eagles game last week is kind of an outlier because the Eagles defense stinks right now, man.

Well, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, no, no, no, I'm saying that both things can be true. Is that you might have to throw at this point. So Warren Sharp tweeted this out. The Eagles are the only team that have given up 20 plus points in the first half and five games. So watching him do that against them, again, it's hard. hard to gauge. But the Lions defense has been pretty good this year.

No, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, this is a real performance today. It absolutely is. And I just love, so before the season started, I don't want to get too far down the Vikings rabbit hole here, but watching them today, I really liked the plan they had coming into the year. This Kubiak play action system that they were trying to implement. my concern was that they'd go a little bit too far in the wrong direction, that it would be so

run heavy that they wouldn't be efficiency just wouldn't be on the table for that. And then watching them today and seeing these first down play action shot plays, doing it on second and eight, things like that, they have found the balance that is a system I like with the proportions that you should run if you want to have an efficient scheme. And I was concerned about that coming in. And I think for the first few weeks, they didn't show us that they could do that. But I think they found it. And it's the perfect offense for him.

They have two great receivers. And the running game works. So when you combine all of those things with the defense, they're in the conversation for me right now in the NFC. I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be. Firmly. That passed a feeling in the back of the end zone. Two thoughts. Number one, that was a dime.

number two, a little close on that wall there in Detroit for the Lions. So I was thinking the same thing. Is that just, was that just bad luck or do they have an unusually close wall back there? So that was an odd thing because he like rolled a couple times. Yeah. It was just an awkward moment in general. But so the throw though, and it's funny that you say that because I thought this maybe three or four times while watching that game today, he throws like one of the prettiest balls in football. Yep.

And it, we, I, unfortunately, through his career, like, doesn't, hasn't done that enough. So that's the thing is that I completely understand the questions about him and the hesitations about him and the, and people like really being upset, like the Vikings fan base over the first couple weeks. I get it. He is maddening. But when he is on, it looks as good as anything.

And I think that today was an example of that. But when he is feeling it, he is one of the most aesthetically pleasing quarterbacks in the NFL. And I think that's why his lows are so frustrating. But it's also the reason that they were won in my opinion, one of the 16 teams that could have won the Super Bowl. So by definitions, in my opinion, you could win a Super Bowl with Kirk Cousins.

If everything else breaks right, he's one of those guys. He can play really, really well. I could even see him kind of playing a Nick Foll's role and just one day putting up 50 points in the Super Bowl just out of his mind. He's not a consistent quarterback. Again, he's not going to be Patrick Mahomes, not be Russell Wilson, any of these guys.

But on, you know, every once a month, he has the capability to look like those guys. And I think the thing is managing the lows and kind of getting to those high points and putting him in a position to have more consistent days when he's not just absolutely on fire. I totally agree. He is very capable of getting hot. And when you consider the roster talent

overall that they have, him getting hot for a month makes them a dangerous proposition in the NFC playoff picture. So speaking of that, Aaron Rogers threw five touchdown passes today. He did. So I had, I was in Green Bay last week, two weeks ago. And I had a really interesting conversation with David Bakhtiari. And we were just talking kind of casually. And we were discussing kind of a previous conversation he and I had had about.

him getting used to their new scheme and settling into it and everything else because they had done the same thing for 15 years there and they were very comfortable with it. And I think everyone on that offense had to drastically alter their expectations, what they're doing, everything. And I think it took a while for them to really settle into it. And their defense carried them as they did that. And now I think they do feel comfortable. and it was about weathering the storm when it was rough at the beginning.

And now that that's over, I mean, what can they do? Are they the best team in the NFC? I don't think that's unreasonable to say. Nope. I don't think it's unreasonable at all. I think that there's kind of, okay, listen, the Niners are really freaking good. The Saints are really good. The Packers are right up there.

I think the Vikings are probably cut below that. I would say I would put those three teams, the San Francisco, New Orleans, and Green Bay at the top right now. Having said that, like you said, that's the only team, you know, Drew Breeze has not been around in New Orleans. So let's put them aside for a second because we don't know what they're going to look like. Drew Breeze, by the way, told my triple to the ESPN that he might practice this week, hopes to play against Arizona next week.

I don't know what that's going to look like. So let's put them aside for a second. I think that, you know, San Francisco has Jim McGroplo coming back, but it's still from an injury, but it's still kind of, you know, same coaching staff, kind of same system, whatever. whatever. What we're talking about, we've talked about this for two months, new play callers, new systems, new all of this, they will start slow because of how training camp operates now, because it's not like it was 15 years ago. You will, by definition, usually have a slow start when you're changing everything. So they bring back Mike Patton, the defense is ahead of the offense. That just makes sense. If this is clicking now and this is the team that the Green Bay Packers are going to be, remember, the Raiders are not the Raiders of last year. The Raiders are a decent football team. If this was the team, that we're going to see for the next 10 weeks, then you have to put them above the other two teams. However, we just haven't seen the sample size.

I'm not ready to call the NFC, and I still think the Niners and the Saints are really, really good. So it just comes down to how sustainable what we saw on Sunday is from the Packers. I think that's the question. And I don't know the answer to that, but I think it's probably pretty sustainable. And it's what you wrote about,

but it's also like, I don't know, it's so interesting to me because I think it was about the other aspects of the team being able to carry them as they figured it out. And now that it seems like they figured it out a little bit, you allow Aaron Rogers to be Aaron Rogers. Yeah. So it's, I think that right now, I give them the benefit of the doubt just because of how terrified I am of him all the time.

But I also think that we really have to acknowledge what the Saints have done. That's amazing. And Teddy Bridgewater, it's amazing. I think, you know, I saw people talking about this today, but I mean, it really should be the story of the season when you just consider what Teddy Bridgewater has come back for. I mean, there were people who thought who were on that field of Minnesota who were like, man, that that's the type of injury where, you know, someone doesn't play again. And if he does, he's a changed guy. And, you know, I've talked in the past about players who have leg injuries or knee injuries and they've talked to me about this, but it's just sort of the mental rehab, I guess. you could call it as just learning to trust herself. And the idea that Teddy Bridgewater has really, I mean, he got traded last year for a second round pick. This is really his first full action.

And it looks like he was never heard. Obviously, the game plan is a little more conservative. But what Sean Payton has done and truly what Teddy Bridgewater is done with his opportunity, has been incredible. And, you know, I think that when Drew Breeze retires, does Saints know what they have? And I think it's a very exciting proposition. And I also think that the Saints know what they have this year, which is, the team that can win a Super Bowl.

Watching what's happened to the Bears, and we'll talk about this a little bit later, you make... Yes, we will talk about the Bears later. You make bold choices, and sometimes it doesn't work out. And I think that there are teams that have made bold choices and really paid for it.

You know, you trade away a future first round pick, or you do this and this with the cap, and you really do try to maximize your moments in the short term, and it may hurt you, later. And I think that that's why the Saints, everything about them right now is so impressive because the degree of difficulty to pull off what they're pulling off when you consider how many risky choices they've made is amazing. Watching these other teams that have done this

like mine and watching it come back to bite them and then you think about what the Saints have done and they've made much riskier choices and they've all worked out. It's really remarkable. I just cannot even comprehend the needle that they've threaded when it comes to building this team that the way that they have and when it comes to making themselves such a force without breeze and for the rest of the season. It is so, so ridiculous. And what's amazing to me is how much more comfortable he's gotten in the offense just the matter of three weeks. You know, I'm looking at his passing charts right now. He's taking downfield shots. You know, just I think that I saw a stat when he first got in that they were running one of the most conservative offenses, not only in the

NFL, but in the last couple of years in the NFL. And obviously he's but worked his way in where he can basically make any throw now. And it's so, so cool to see. I just, he's a starting quarterback in the NFL. And I think that if any time before 18 months ago, anybody said that, you think they were going to be crazy just because of how crazy that injury was. And again, it's not only the story of the season, it's one of the stories maybe the decade. And so there were games, I think, early on, they really were conservative with him. Yep. And I mean, his average, like, intended to air yards was like three. Yeah. Like, first two games. And I think that there, that was caused for for concern, like 100%.

But what's been so impressive to me is that they can be different things every week based on what they need to be. And I think that is the mark of a really good team. It's the mark of a versatile team and it's the mark of a deep team. That is what the Saints have shown me is that they're just so, the roster talent and the coaching are so good that they can just be everything they need to be on a weekly basis. And I think that's how you sustain, especially without the best player on your team.

You know, I remember. It's blown me away. I remember people saying that it was going to take a little bit. This is kind of predicted because the offense, the Saints were running was so tailored around Drew Brees that they kind of really, I mean, I think the conservative nature of it, yes, it was kind of easing him in. He had obviously not seen this much action in a number of years. But it was also just they're trying to figure out what an offense without Drew Brees looks like.

because it had been, what, four years since another player had started, that kind of a weird, I think, September, October game where one of the McCowns started. So I just also think this is part of, partly just Sean Peyton getting up to speed. I think the ability for coaching quarterback to work together like this and, and look like, I mean, look, if Drew Breeze wasn't coming back this year, we would still be talking about the Saints as an, you know, an NFC contender. I think that's the biggest, that's the biggest testament to what Bridgewater has done so far, is that if Breeze had torn as ACL, we'd still be having the same conversation without the fact that Drew Breeze is coming back, perhaps next week.

Who do you think has done the most impressive coaching job in the NFL this year? The Sean Payton, coach of the year for right now. I think it's between him and Reich. Oh, yeah. It's a conversation to me. I think Sean Peyton is the answer. Honestly, it depends. I think they're two different teams.

I think the Saints are looking at, you know, number one. seed type season and the Coltsman looking at a, you know, AFC South champion type season where, you know, you win 10 or 11 games. I just think they're on different planes of competition. And so it'll just be who sort of maxes out there, their wins there. I just, yeah, I think you're right. I mean, I think the Saints probably because of that reason are, he's in the driver's seat, but I just think what both of them have done in a league where things like not nearly as

drastic as what has happened to the Saints and Colts happen to teams and it allows like it derails their seasons to watch what both of them have done. I just, I'm jealous. Like I mean, that's kind of what I'm sitting here doing. It's like they are so, so good and they have tapped into something that is so hard to tap into. It's just, I'm in all of it like weekly. I said it last week. If you have a bad coach, you should be pointing out that the Indianapolis Colts did this. And this is a, every coach says no excuses and then makes excuses and the Colts have made no excuses. And the Saints are the same way. I mean, you lose a whole fame quarterback and you just keep on rolling.

I mean, it's, I've been floored by both of them. It reminds me, it reminds me a little bit of a couple of years ago. The owners meetings the year after Derek Carr broke his leg, Jack Del Rio was asked, what did you learn about football last year, you know, with that great Raiders team that ended up? I remember this. And he said, I learned to know. not lose your quarterback. And then a year later, the Eagles lost the quarterback and they won the Super Bowl

and put up more points to any team in the history of the Super Bowl. So there you go. You can lose your quarterback. You just have to have a good coaching staff. All right. Let's get to stock up, stock down. What do you want to start with? Well, I think that we already talk.

We will get to the quarterbacks and sort of their MVP situations here. I think we need to talk with Dallas Cowboys. We already dunked on the Philadelphia Eagles. I'm done with them. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, when do we get to pick new Super Bowl teams, midseason? I think so. I can't wait for that. This is the most wrong I've been about that in a very long time.

I can't wait for the Eagles to stop being my Super Bowl prediction. And look, I mean, this is something that we, this is something that we kind of saw coming. you talk about the depth in the roster and some of the special guys, the reason you win a Super Bowl, someone like Malik Jackson, while some Malik Jackson's out for the season is on IR. A couple of those things around the edges. Like,

I thought that maybe they weren't the most talented roster in the NFL anymore, but I didn't expect this. Yeah. I think that's how I'm feeling too. I mean, the margins get worse and worse as you get more hurt, but watching them just come out and lack energy. the last couple weeks

has been surprising to me. Because I think both of, you and I spent a lot of time around that Eagles team when they won the Super Bowl. And it was a special locker room. It was, there was something.

And coaching staff that we now know was, you know, really, really down to because they had Frank Reich. And they, it was a special group

on, I think, every single level. And to watch them come out and just lack, I don't know what the right, word is, but just something. It's an energy. It's some sort of fortitude. It just, this team feels

much different. And I just did not expect that coming into the year. Even if, even as they got a little bit banged up, I never thought this version of this roster was in play. Yeah, I don't think it's a vibe thing. I think it's a talent thing. I mean, I just think they don't have any defensive backs. You can stay with anybody right now. Yeah, that's fair. I think that's, you're probably, right, but I still think that... I'm always ready to call in the body language doctor. It's a ringer special, but I just, I don't think it's a vibe thing at all. But maybe it's not. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

I mean, so many guys are hurt, but they're, like, think about the Colts again. Yeah. How many defensive backs are hurt on the Colts? Oh, I'm with you. I also think I have not seen, no, we were joking about how Robert Sala looks like, like they're just running the same footage on a loop. Carson Wentz, Carson Wentz coming off the field. field slightly limping and looking like he just took a shot that would kill any of us. Like that seems to be the exact same footage just looped over and over and over again.

I just, I've not seen Carves and Wentz jog to the sideline looking 100% healthy in a very long time. And that's the biggest thing. I mean, no matter what's happening with them injury wise elsewhere, if he's banged up and if anything wrong with him torpedoes their chances. All right. So Dallas. I could complain about the Eagles next 30 minutes.

We got to get to Dallas. So what do you? So that's what I wanted to ask you. So this Cowboys performance, are you tacking it up to what we've seen from the Eagles the last couple weeks as a defense? Or do you think that this team was, this is what I think.

I think they were primed for a bounceback game. I think that offense can't be really good. I started the Cowboys. The Cowboys. Yeah, yeah. That's how I'm reading this. Well, listen, they lost at the gym.

Jets last week and one of the most uninspiring performances I've ever seen in my entire life. Yes, they did. So let's not, I'm not here to crown the Cowboys, but I am here to say there was some encouragement here. They had some nice passes past some play action, which is what we wanted to see. Yeah, I'm sure you're happy about that. Like the playwright

I love it. Amari Cooper looks like Amari Cooper again. And I think that that was coming off of the injury last week. I think that there was a lot of concern about that after the Jets game. But I think that like this is a team. They're almost like I mean, they are one of the boom and bust teams of the NFL.

They can play as well as anybody, and sometimes they can lose to the damn jets. And it's important to sort of figure out, it's almost, there's sort of the Kirk cousins of teams right now, right? Like, we just have to manage the lows, and we can get there. That's same with Kirk cousins.

That's what I'd just be saying if I was Mike Zimmer right now, manage the lows, and we can get there. And so I just think that, you know, I just, more consistent games is where I want to say. from them. They don't need to beat the Eagles by, what, 24 points, 27 points every single time. I will say, I thought Barnwell had a funny tweet

today where he's talking about how just, I don't think there's ever been a decision that has been panned more and turned, and the punditry looked worse than the Amara Cooper panning. Like, I think that was, everybody on the planet thought the Raiders won that trade. Yeah. And it's amazing, it's amazing to see how

important he's been to that offense. I think it speaks to situation. I think it speaks to how important it is to be in the right spot in the NFL. And, you know, we have opinions of players and we make judgments on players and we think we know what they are. And then they walk into a different spot and they completely transform. And I think that's what we're talking about here. I mean, it's when you step into a spot that is drastically better, I think you can be a completely different version. of who he used to be. And I think that's what we've seen from him. And it's, I don't know,

I feel like as we talk about the league, and you and I do this twice a week, and it's really tempting to fall prey to the weekly kind of machinations of the league. And I think the thing I've learned the most in this year, and even over the last five years doing this, is that we should never make judgments until like three years with teams, with players, with everything. And I am guilty. I am as guilty as anybody. But I'm trying to be better about that. And I think that he's a really good example.

Yeah. I mean, listen, that's true of everything. I mean, unfortunately, as, you know, I was joking in the last podcast, but the Hershal Walker trade and how universally was praised on the Viking side. And unfortunately, this is not, we don't get the benefit of hindsight. it's so we sort of just have to analyze these things. And listen, a lot of times your first instinct is right. I mean, I've talked about it before how much I was just destroyed for my Carson

Wens praise early on. And the Rams were mad at me. Do you remember that when some of the Rams guys were mad at me for that? Because I was making fun of them for taking, I was making fun of them for passing on Wenz, draft golf. Anyway, let's not get into that too long. But the, I just think that you just sort of have to guess on these things. with all the evidence you have.

And I think that in the instance of the Marri Cooper trade, it looked like he was not performing at a level worth of first round pick. I think very few receivers are worth the first round pick. And I was wrong. Amari Cooper is one of the receivers who are worth the first round pick relative to what he's done for that offense. And we can debate a million times whether or not saving Jason Garrett's job was a noble cause, but he did.

And I think that he's a really freaking time. mounted player. And I was glad that on Slow Newsday, I got to tell him that I'm an idiot. All right. Let's get to our next one here. I feel like both Lamar Jackson and Aaron Rogers thrust themselves into the MVP conversation today. Do you think that's

fair? Yes. Depending on how you... Just the conversation. How you view the conversation. They weren't mentioned. Right. Um, yes. They are on, they are probably both in the top five at this point, wouldn't you say? I would say, Wilson won. I don't know what's going on with Mahomes.

Yeah, that's, I mean, that's, that's a murky situation. I think that Wilson is definitely won. I think Watson coming in today was. Yeah, I would say I was going to have Watson three, maybe. Maybe. That's, that's fair. I don't know. I mean, if Rogers and Jackson, listen, if Lamar Jackson wins 12 games and plays like he

played, he is firmly, I mean, he's just a cup below Wilson. I mean, again, it's all kind of foolish to just. just project whatever everybody's going to look like. Maybe, maybe, you know, maybe Aaron Rogers was like this for the rest of the season and we don't have to worry about the whole thing and he wins unanimously. I don't know what's going to happen. What I am saying is that this is a narrative award. Those guys make sense.

I mean, Lamar Jackson is awesome. I mean, Bobby Wagner was talking about, I guess I saw some quotes after the game where he was talking about just how smart of a runner he was in the sense that, you know, he was great at running when the Seahawks run man coverage and had their back to back to the offense and and Bobby Biden was praising that. And I just think that this is just going to keep happening. Like he's a really smart player. He is a really, I mean, he obviously has the passing skills, which we've seen. But just him as a runner, fourth and two, that was an amazing play. He wants to stay out there. John Harbaugh, kudos to him for just having the guts to go for it

on fourth down. But he's also like, Lamar Jackson, aside from being a really good passer and a really good quarterback and a really smart player, he might be the hardest player to tackle in football right now. So I know how this is going to sound And I don't mean it to sound like this And I'm not trying to make Lamar Jackson Not a quarterback because he's been a good quarterback this year But is Lamar Jackson the best running back in the NFL? Hmm

I don't know I mean that's really hard to say Because you have to imagine You know he only runs when he wants to run It's situational But that's not necessarily true They have a lot of design runs for him.

Yeah, no, I know what you're saying, but it's, I don't, I think that's a really hard. I'm not trying to, I am not trying to take anything away from his ability to play quarterback. That's not what I'm trying to do. Are you, so let me ask you a question. If you put him in Minnesota with Dalvin, Cooke, in Dalvin Cook spot, does he have more or less yards than Dalvin Cook? So I think the answer is less because he's, I think that he's, I think that he's, I think that he's, I don't think he's, you know what he is?

he's a great quarterback. Here's what I'm asking. Is he the most effective, dangerous runner in the NFL at any position right now? Yeah, I mean, I think that you, I think that right now there's like three guys in the NFL

that you'd rather, that you'd want to see less than Lamar Jackson right now. Like, I, and maybe it's, maybe it's just one. Maybe it's, I don't know. I mean, he just beat Russell Wilson, so I don't know.

I mean, I think you would rather see Lamar Jackson than a healthy Patrick my homes. But like right now, if I'm game planning for somebody, I don't want to game plan against Lamar Jackson. I'm with you. Like 100%. I just think that what he is giving them is a runner, it's unlike anything we've seen recently in the NFL. He was nine of 20 today. And they won 30 to 16. I mean, I understand there was a defensive touchdown and everything else. 116 rush yards, rush touchdown. What he is giving them is, I don't know what to compare it to.

I mean, we've seen, you know, there was a time when Cam was running a decent amount, everything else, but this is new. And it's kind of hard to wrap my mind around because we, we haven't a vision and we have an understanding of what efficient offense in the NFL looks like. And the Ravens are kind of turning that on its head. And it's hard for me to grasp right now because they're doing it well enough. to win, but I don't know if they can keep doing it. If that makes sense.

Because it's so different from what we're used to. Yeah, I think they can keep doing it, dude. I think they can too. They just went to Seattle and pretty easily. I'm not easily. It was a hard fault game, but I think that they, they comfortably won that game. It is, it is just so different.

And again, it's just, I've had a hard time kind of filtering it through my understanding of how football works right now. now. It's a very disconcerting kind of off-putting thing because it's just so different. I disagree with that. I mean, like, I actually disagree with that. I think that they are what we should celebrate, which is a team that figured out what they had made a plan around and built a franchise around it. Like, they're not going to have the efficiency numbers of, they're not going to have him drop back 50 times a game. He's not, not a conterminate Philip Rivers, not a term to Joe Flacko, whatever. He's going to be the best Lamar Jackson in the history of football. And there's

I just, I think that it's a celebration. They are celebrating what they have instead of trying to tournament of something he's not. And I think there's a real lesson to be learned in that. I think that they understood, you know, you promote Greg Roman, who obviously has experience running this sort of, sort of run heavy offense and sort of coming up with great schemes.

He's the offensive coordinator. John Harbaugh is clearly aggressive. He went forward on fourth down when Lamar wanted to. I just think that they drafted in a kind of a different way. They went all in on him in a very different way, which is that they built a really unique offense around him, and they celebrated him. And I think there's a lot of coaches who get a quarterback and say, I'm going to make this quarterback a version that I want to see him as. And the Ravens looked at Lamar Jackson and said, we're just going to maximize what we have and enjoy what we have. And I think that there's, there are probably about 25 coaches should be looking at the Ravens and not trying to run the Ravens offense, but trying to do what the Ravens did from a

spiritual standpoint, which is say, we like our guy, how do we help them? I agree with everything you just said. I wasn't trying to say, I believe that. And what they've done is amazing. It's just so unique that it's kind of hard to understand when you think about the rest of the league. The plan is beautiful. And it has worked as well as they, it possibly could have.

But again, it's just so different from our value systems as we think. think about the sport right now when it comes to offensive aesthetics, that when I watch it, and I watch it succeed, it, there's a leap. There is a slight step I have to take to buy into it. And I have. But, and I think that's the beauty of it is they knew they needed to be that different. And they went completely in that direction. And when I was great. When I was doing the Matthew Stafford story, I talked to Dan Arlovsky, who obviously backed up Stafford was in Detroit with him. And he talked a little bit about how there were some Jim Caldwell as one of them, coaches who were brought in to make Matthew Stafford less of a gunslinger. And what ended up

happening was that he lost a little bit, this is where Olavski thinks, he lost a little bit of that sort of, I can do anything mentality, which in some cases is unhealthy when he started talking about turnovers or whatever. But on the on the balance there, it's really important for Matthew Stafford to be Matthew Stafford. And I think that, when you look at how many quarterbacks have had to go through that where a coach comes in or an owner or GM says we're bringing a coach in to make you less like

yourself, I think that that's where someone like John Harbaugh and Greg Roman should be celebrated because they're not doing that. And I think that I know that you obviously feel the same way. We're not arguing in this, but I just want to emphasize how cool what the Ravens are doing is. Yeah, I absolutely

agree. I just think that it takes such a humility to transform your franchise and to be willing to make a bold choice like that and do something different. And especially when you consider the fact that John Harbaugh has been there for so long and we have such an established understanding of what the Ravens are, that's the coolest part of it to me is that the Ravens are a known quantity. We know this franchise.

Obviously, Ozzie Newsom is not there anymore or whatever else. but they are not the first team I'd throw out to reinvent themselves on a fly, on the fly like this. And I think that's the coolest part of it, is that they had no reason to. It's not a new coaching staff. It's not a new front office. It's not,

none of that. They did it because they knew it was their best chance. And that's the best part. Are we going to get a chance to bring up the Niners slop fest against the Redskins? I don't think so. it's not in the dock here. Do you want to? No, I just want to talk about,

you know what? I'm just going to wait for stock down and give it to everybody involved in that game. That's totally fine. All right, one more stock up here, and we can do this briefly. I tweeted a bunch about it. You and I have talked a bunch about it.

What the Indianapolis Colts did today and what they've done all season is just absolutely unbelievable. Yeah. They are four and two. They have as many wins. They've played one last game than the Houston Texans, but these Texans are four and three. They are a legitimate contender in this division. I still think that there's a, if you were to handicap right now, even after Sunday, would you give it to Houston just because of, we both believe that Deshaun Watson is most important person in the world?

Yes. Yeah. Like, I just, I, I, I, I'm ready, despite Bill O'Brien, despite some of the real problems in Houston, like, I will follow Deshaun Watson to the edge of the earth. and I will follow him into an AFC South prediction. Having said that, I mean, this is, I think this is a definite playoff team. They are just a, everything has been thrown at them. Not just luck, but, you know, Darius Leonard injury has been thrown at them. They just keep rolling.

It is unbelievable, man. I don't even know. At some point that you just run into things to say with Indianapolis Colts, but I think that it is one of the most remarkable, franchise, the way Chris Ballard has built that franchise in a short amount of time to be sustainable and tough and a well-illed machine. It's one of the team-building jobs of the decade and like, what, the quarter century, whatever, 50 years, I don't know. Like, it's one of the best things that's ever been done in the NFL when you consider just how quickly he got that

program up and running and how much he's persevered. He hasn't won a Super Bowl. He hasn't even gotten close yet, but just from going from zero to 100, I've been hugely impressed. I think it's a similar conversation of the one we had about the Saints in the sense that they've been able to be different things. And when they beat the Chiefs, it was all Marlon Mack. It was Marlon Mack, 25 carries, 125 yards, all the running game. And today, Jacoby Percette threw for 325 yards and 4 touchdowns. And they don't need him to do that every week. but the fact that they can kind of vastly between these different versions

of who they are, I think that speaks to coaching, I think it speaks to roster talent, and I think it speaks to an overall plan in the same way that it does with New Orleans. I feel like they are impressive in the exact same way, and today was the best example of that for Andy.

So have you looked at the schedule? I have not. Let me tell you what it is. First Denver, first Denver, Flacko Bowl, Pittsburgh, Miami, Jacksonville. Real chance at seven or eight wins.

It's amazing. Getting to seven and two, eight and two in those next four games. That's, that's, there's some real moves to be made there. All right, before we move on, let's take a quick break. With two thirds of guys experiencing

noticeable hair loss by age 35, most guys assume losing her hair is inevitable as they age. Some don't care. Some shave their head, some embrace hats. But what they don't know is there is an FDA-approved medication designed to stop hair loss and even regrow hair. That's why we're excited to partner with our sponsor, Roman. Roman makes it easier to get safe FDA-approved hair loss treatment all from your phone or computer.

And when you go to getRoman.com slash ringer NFL, your online visit is free. Consult with a U.S. licensed physician through their secure online platform. No awkward conversations with receptionists or reading bad magazines in the waiting rooms. Once your doctor ensures the treatment will be safe and effective for you, Roman's dedicated pharmacy can ship your medication to you with free two-day shipping and discrete packaging. If you're noticing unwanted hair loss, starting treatment early is key, and Roman can help. And today, Roman is giving Ringer NFL show listeners a free online visit at gethroman.com slash ringer NFL. That's get Roman.com slash ringer NFL for a free visit to get started.

Go to get Roman.com slash ringer NFL. Do you want to be able to watch every single NFL game this season no matter where you live or what team you're root for? This season, there's a proven way to watch every football game live for a fraction of the cost. ExpressVPN. Use ExpressVPN to buy the International Game Pass. ExpressVPN lets you spoof your location so that you can buy the International Game Pass for just $125 and stream all the games.

ExpressVPN comes with apps for computers, mobile, and digital media players like Fire TV. Plus, use ExpressVPN every time you go online to keep all your network data encrypted, secure, and safe from hackers. ExpressVPN is the fastest VPN, costs less than $7 per month and comes with a 30-day money-back guarantee. Enjoy all 256 games in the 2019 NFL season with the world's most trusted VPN. ExpressVPN. Protect your online activity today and find out how you can get three months free at expressvPN.com slash NFL. That's EXPR-E-S-S-V-N.com slash NFL for three months free with a one-year package. Visit expressfvn.com slash NFL to learn more.

All right. Let's get to stock down. Where do you want to start? I just want to briefly hit on everybody involved in that Niners, Niners Redskins game. Bill Callahan established the run a little too hard. I will say mercifully, so it was 9-0 was the final. Congratulations to the Niners for their undefeated season. But I will say, I believe Scott Hanson said it was the quickest game of the decade. Did you hear that? That's amazing.

All those running, all those runs. They couldn't pass. Right, they couldn't pass. And so they just ran the, both teams just ran the ball a ton. And I believe it took three, three combined pass attempts in that game. Two hours. and 30 minutes it took about. So it was one of the shortest games in a very, very long time.

So I guess they got it over with. Everyone can go watch the Nationals in the World Series or whatever. We get ready for it. And yeah, that was that was that. So I'm not, we didn't talk enough about the Niners in the opening segment, probably because I think there's an editorial decision on our part to not count dolphins, redskins, and Bengals wins as such. Yeah, we'll get to the nine.

When they give us reason and they beat somebody that we feel good about and it's wait well let's let's back up here we've done a ton of celebration of the niners this year we love the niners which is a pro nineers podcast but in this particular sunday i didn't glean a lot from the san francisco 49ers i think that's fair all right what's our next one Cincinnati bangles yikes dude i'm not sure what else there is to say i mean it yikes i remember in the summer when I said on this show that their season was over and you thought it was way too harsh?

Well, no, and then AJ Green got hurt and I got on board. They play the Rams, the Ravens, and the Raiders next. Hey, so, no, here's what I want to talk about. Yonnik and Gokwe, this is from Ben Baby, a reporter in Cincinnati. Yonik and Gakwe in the pick six.

Quote, I noticed when Joe Bernard was in the game, they were looking to pass. And when it was Joe Mixing, they were looking to run. So I thought it was going to be a screen. I got to tell you, I'm not sure about the Bengals tendencies here. I think they're showing some things, Robert.

Do you, what are your thoughts about, like, the Zach Taylor era? Are you withholding judgment at this point because of how, like, I think they're a mess. I think they're a mess. I think that they're, you know, the AJ Green thing is weird to start to see you. That's what I mean. I just think they're so hurt and they have such little. I still think they have talent there. Really?

They have, I mean, no, I mean, they have Gino Adkins, they have guys like that. I mean, they're not, they're not the dolphins. I'm not, I'm not throwing out the Zach Taylor era just yet. Are you? I'm not either.

No, because I just think it's really hard to judge what they are because they, they're so, so just devoid of talent on the office. I got to tell you, dude. They should be better than this. I'm not right. They shouldn't be 0 and 7.

They shouldn't be threatening. They're going to play the dolphins in December, you know. Listen, Zach Taylor is going to, I think Zach Taylor is a smart guy. Do you think the dolphins are a better team right now than the Bengals? I think it's close. I think it's close too. We pumped up that Washington Miami game as like the tank bowl. I think Cincinnati Miami is actually a better version of it.

I think the Redskins are trying to win some games, dude. Yes. I mean, I just think that with Cincinnati, we've talked about this a lot. I feel like this is the reset button offseason. I mean, they can move on from Dalton. We'll see what happens with AJ Green. They're going to get a top five pick. I do think that this is where the page turns.

I really do. Yeah. Let's not do another word. Andy Dalton. I have no interest in that. All right. Mitchell Trubisky. Tarit Cohen,

three, Cohen, nine receptions for 19 yards. I don't know what else there is to say. I mean, it's... Do we make a move? I don't think this season. I mean, what are you going to do? No, I meant just not having to be the quarterback anymore.

No, I think you write it out. I don't think there's... I mean, why? What's the benefit of going to Daniel? I don't know. That's why I was asking you. I was just curious. now.

I think you write it out and I think at the end of the season you figure out what your options are. Coming into this year, my stance on this team was if the quarterback isn't better,

it's a loss season because the defense is not going to be as good. And if the defense isn't as good, the offense needs to pick up that slack. And if they don't, then this is a eight,

nine win team. And I think that's where we are. they just dude what's up with Matt Nagy yeah I don't I'm gonna step back and kind of really kind of evaluate this stuff over the next week or so here because

I sound like a GM well I just I mean it's one of those things where I still believe in him and I think that with the right players with the right talent that he can be a really good offensive play caller but it's been really discouraging their complete lack of a running game

is startling. I mean, they have not been able to do anything with that. And I think that a lot of that stuff can be created schematically. So I don't know. I had so many thoughts about this team

and I thought I knew what they were coming into the season. And I've really, that's been challenged. And I, you know, when I threw out like the Andy Dalton thing or whatever their quarterback could be next season,

that was like, maybe a month ago. And I had an understanding, I thought I had an understanding of this team. And I was like, oh, this is what they are minus the quarterback. And now I don't know what they are minus the quarterback. I feel like every other aspect of this team is not as good as I thought it was going to be coming into the year. That's where I sit right now. I think you want to move on desperately, don't you?

We can. Let's talk about the Chargers. Let's talk about a more in Neff team, the Chargers, who, last week they have about 700 fans in their their home stadium. They get in a situation where somehow they get in a feud

with their in stadium DJ and everyone spends the entire week talking whether they should move back to their home city or like St. Louis for some reason. I'm not sure where that came from. And they follow that up by going to Tennessee and being more embarrassing. They lose to Ryan Tannahill, and most importantly, they lose on a goal line

fumble at the end of the game. Robert, what are we going to do about the Los Angeles Chargers? My concern with then is Rivers is in his late 30s. There's always been the question of what he was going to do moving forward. Was he going to retire? How long did he want to stay there? This team coming into the year, I think, you know, if I had thought about this, them in April. I thought they were a legitimate contender. And they've been so hurt and so many things have gone wrong that they're not anymore. And now I feel like that's changed so quickly that it's kind of hard to comprehend what the future looks like because they don't have a long-term plan. So I have no idea what the next three years of the Los Angeles Chargers look like.

And that is a scary proposition. A lot of empty seats. I can tell you that much. I mean, that's 100% true. Even beyond the stands, the stadium, all of that stuff, just in terms of a roster construction overall team building plan, I feel like they are entering a no man's land that is not conducive to anything good.

It's so strange because they have good players. I mean, producer Craig said this. They've basically got good quarterbacks, running backs, tight ends, and wide receivers, and they suck on offense. That's not good. I am, the quarterback thing is what I'm most

curious about. Okay. I am, I'm wondering what, how long he's going to be there. Uh, yeah. I mean, that's, I don't, it's, it's very, very strange. And I wonder if the Los Angeles thing, he's still doing the van commute, right? It's miserable. It's, if they don't have a chance, it wouldn't surprise me if he just, if he's just, after the season was like, I'm done. He, isn't he going to be like, I'm not going on his van anymore? He and I had a long conversation last year before the playoffs. And in his mind, it was all about, are we good enough to get on the dance floor? As long as we're in the tournament and we have a shot, I think that random things happen. That's what he told me. But if they're not even that level of team, I'm really curious about

how long he's willing to stick with this. I'm with you. I bet, you know, listen, charges have a 20 release, baby. All right. Let's get to challenge flags. NFL referees. What about them this week? The Chargers and the Titans game was just ridiculous. And I think that something that's happened, I remember Mike Pereira saying this to me years ago, and it rears its head every week,

which is that replay has now kind of taken over the minds of, of NFL officials. And so what ends up happening is that they're hesitant. You can almost see, I remember his exact phrasing it was basically like, you can kind of see the wheels turning in the head of the referee. It's not just, will this hold up in our view? It's, what will the league office think? It's, what are the 11 exceptions to this rule?

Like, there's so much a ref has to think about. So I'm not necessarily blaming the refs, right? But what I will say is that there's so much hesitation on the field. Nobody wants to make a call. Like, at the end of that Titans Chargers game, it was like everybody was afraid to say anything. And they were just huddle up and it would take a minute and a half. they'd review everything.

They would throw flags. I was just, I hate part of the NFL experience right now. I just absolutely hate it. And I made fun of the fact. So the NFL introduces this pass interference thing because of one call. And I do think, and I was there in Arizona when they passed the rule. And Sean Payton said, I don't want anybody to have to go through this again. That Rams Saints game, we're not going to have anybody go through this again.

And I'm glad they have the rule in. because of an egregious case like this. But if you're going to have past interference be a reviewable thing, you can't just blanket say we're not going to change any call, which is clearly what they've done, that it's clearly what they've done. I don't know what the point of this whole thing was. And also, why coaches like Pat Schumer still challenge it?

When we were talking about this before the season, I was okay with the rule. I was curious and skeptical about how they would implement the rule. And I think that's been the problem is that the bar, the barrier to overturning these calls is so high. And it's created so much more scrutiny, not only on past interference calls, but I just think on officiating in general. I mean, maybe this is anecdotal, but don't you feel like you've seen significantly more just slow-mo replays of penalties this year than you have in years past? Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, you mean just like, we're just looking at something and yeah. trying to figure out if it's a thing yes yeah absolutely and you know when i did that story last year about blandino and perrero joe buck was talking about how you know he used to sit in the booth with his dad when his dad called monday night football i think um in the radio and he said that he said that you know he didn't remember at any point over his dad's entire tenure anyone ever mentioned their referees ever and it would just be like i'm not saying they were they were they were be, you know, the same level of skill that they are now. Yeah, the refs aren't worse now.

It's just, let's be clear about that. It's just there's a couple of things. Number one, replay leads to long breaks and a lot of scrutiny. Beyond that, everyone has HD TVs. You can sort of see the slow-mo there. They didn't have those capabilities 30, 40 years ago. And then beyond that, there's just, the rulebook is bigger by definition. They haven't shrunk the rule book.

There's exceptions to every single rule. And Blondino kind of goes on a rant about the semi-story. about, you know, there was some like Jeremy Shockey spike once that then advanced the ball during a delay of game or something. And they're like put in some crazy rule just to, so that doesn't happen again, even though it would never happen again. And so all of a sudden, referees are spending, you know, three days learning this when it doesn't actually mean anything. And those are the types of things the NFL has to fight against. And so I don't know, man. I mean, it's, it's an uphill battle. I don't know. I'm sort of a,

The theory, the part of it is that the NFL is just, you know, as it gets faster, is becoming an unrefable game from the vantage point that they're at. I think that maybe, you know, I think I might do a take shot this week. We need, we need some, I'm not saying robot refs, but different vantage point refs that are maybe not on the field. Create something creative. I think that we need to kind of, I feel like somebody needs to kind of, you know, huddle up and see, you know, even if there's not a definitive answer.

Let's try to throw something against the wall and see what sticks. That's where I'm at. Agree. What's your challenge flag? We've done this one a couple times already the season, but I feel like I'm, I have to come back to it. What is going on with the Atlanta Falcons? Yeah. I saw, I saw another.

The cap guys, the cap guys keep tweeting about how much money the Falcons have tied up. I tweeted this like maybe like a week or two ago. There is no team in the NFL whose plan and results are more incongruous than than Atlanta. Because the teams that are bad, at least they haven't spent that much or they understand what they are to a certain degree. I mean, there are exceptions. I mean, Washington is pretty much up against the cap, which is hilarious.

But Atlanta went all in this offseason. and they're an absolute mess. I just don't know what else there is to say about them. I mean, it just feels like, I don't know. Like, what happens now? What are they next season? No, it's not good. Watching them play, I just, I don't even know how to process it.

The defense is so out of sorts. And for Quinn to be in charge of that, And again, for not that many guys to be hurt, everything else, it just, they are the hardest team for me to comprehend when it comes to what we expected before the year and what they actually look like. It's the cognitive dissonance is strong. That's what I would say. They're one of the most disappointing teams in a long time when you consider how much we thought they had. And also the other thing is we thought, and even though Matt Ryan, by the way, Matt Ryan was in a walking boot, but they don't they don't consider his injury serious. even though Matt Ryan has been good this year,

we thought there was a baseline that, okay, they'd score X amount of points. They'd be fine in offense. The defense is just to be fine. First of all, the Falcons defense is just got off. And so even if Matt remarkable,

even if Matt Ryan were putting up, you know, even if he had Kyle Shanahan back and all this stuff, this is just not going to work. It wouldn't matter. I believe they're 31st in points. against, yes, they are. And they're in the middle of the pack as far as points for, okay? And so what you have here is an offense, I would say that being middle of the road for offense,

I think is probably underachieving for that offense. And so you're, considering how much they spend on that offense? Absolutely. And also just Matt Ryan and Julio Jones, you know, that's it. That's, that's the tweet, right? Like, those are some good players. And so I think that you're looking at an underachieving offense and then a way underachieving defense and decide you get this. All right. What's your headline for tomorrow? By the way, how did the Falcons beat the Eagles? It's a great question.

I know absolutely nothing about the NFL apparently. That's true. I think there's going to be a lot of Rogers type, and it's going to be more referee furor. Those both sound right to me. I think the Rogers thing is real. And I think him coming out and playing like that today, and again, them kind of weathering the storm

when the offense was figuring it out, those two things kind of coming together at the same time, it bodes well for them. It absolutely does. Yeah. I mean, I just think that there's, you know,

I think that we're going to talk because whenever the presumptive MVP favorite, in this case, Russell Wilson, and also you have Patrick Mahomes, whenever those guys have stumbles that reopens up the MVP talk. So there'll be a lot of, a lot of breath spent on, on Rogers and Jackson as,

as MVP candidates. All right. Thank you for listening. We will be back. on Thursday with the midweek show. Thank you for joining us on the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network.