The Ringer NFL Show - Rookie Quarterbacks With Mallory Rubin. Plus: A Midseason Predictions Draft | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: November 12, 2020

Nora Princiotti is joined by The Ringer’s Mallory Rubin to discuss the success rookie quarterbacks are currently having and what to expect from Justin Herbert, Joe Burrow, and Tua Tagovailoa in the future (5:56). Then, the Ringer’s Danny Kelly and Kaelen Jones join Nora to draft some award predictions and make a Super Bowl pick (41:09). Host: Nora Princiotti Guests: Mallory Rubin, Danny Kelly, and Kaelen Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Ringer NFL show. I am Nora Pryanti. I am not Kevin Clark, who would normally be here with you on Thursday. Kevin will be back with me breaking down all of the week 10 action on Sunday night. But until then, we're going to have a really fun conversation with Mallory Rubin about some of the young rookie quarterbacks that we've seen play so well this year. And then we're going to talk to Danny Kelly and Kaelin Jones and revisit some of our preseason picks. Today's episode of the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer podcast network is brought to you by State Farm. Getting great car and home insurance from State Farm at a surprisingly great rate,

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All right, so we have Mallory Rubin here. Hello, Mallory. I'm very excited to talk to you about some quarterbacks today. Oh, my God. Nora, what a delight to be here with you. Thank you for having me. It's an honor. It's a privilege.

Can't wait to chat. How is my pal halo? He's crushing it. to be honest. He is currently napping in a particularly vibrant and expansive Sun Square. And, you know, he like me, he like you, just loves to watch rookie quarterbacks. Has a lot of thoughts on Herbert, has a lot of thoughts. He's a long time to a stand, you know.

Okay. So he's doing great. He's excited about our focus today. And I will, I should probably just tell all of our listeners, I will be doing this entire a podcast with a paper bag over my head as the result of maybe a two attack of I Lowa related conversation that took place on this podcast that in hindsight not looking so great, but I'm excited to unpack all of that. Listen.

Listen. I just want you to know that Ben Glickman has forgiven you. Okay. Now, he is not going to ever say that. you directly, but I have known Ben for a long time and he has a pure heart. And so I think you guys can find your way forward together. We did offer Ben the opportunity to call into this very podcast and just like yell at me for 10 minutes. And he declined because as Mallory said, pure of heart, kind of soul. But a fellow college football fan like you are, which is why I'm

pumped about this conversation because I kind of want to get a vibe check. going on these rookie quarterbacks who've been so exciting this year. Yeah, we love a vibe check. Just because you're a huge college football fan, watched all these guys. And I'm curious just what it's been like seeing Joe Burrow, then Justin Herbert, now Tua playing as someone who had a lot of history as a football watcher with all these guys before they were in the NFL. Do you want me to feel bad and then you issue your formal apology to Tua and to Miami

Dolphins fans? or do you want to take that first? I thought I already did that. Didn't we already cover this? Aren't I scoffrey now? I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I just, I believe in the infrastructure of that team so much that I'm on edge.

It's just because I want the best for them. I promise. I have this long history. This is a little weird, but let's just unpack it. Let's do it. The dolphins have this weird mascot. He's a dolphin. And they have this blowout.

up dolphin who kind of patrols their sidelines. And I used to cover the Patriots, so I would cover a game in Miami once a year. And that guy haunts my dreams. He is, so he's not a, I guess, a fabric mascot is how I would put it. It's like a blow up doll. And he is bulbous in ways that are just terrifying. And he sort of wiggles and wobbles along the sidelines, and I would spend games. Like, it's shocking that I didn't zone out during the Miami Miracle play because I was just, I found it very hard to look away like roadkill or a train wreck with that guy. So I think I'm probably destined to have him haunt my dreams forever more, especially after being way too spooked by Tua's first start.

But anyway, this is, I have to say, a masterful attempt at redirection on your part. You know, the words bulbous, the words wiggle and waggle. You're trying to get everybody to think of basically jello molds instead of thinking about the two-a-take, Ben will not be fooled. And I respect the effort on your part, though. So to actually answer your question, I, I would say, you know, we can take a player by player here, but broadly, like the overall snapshot,

I am the least surprised by what we saw from Tua this past weekend because simply put, had one of the best careers in the history of college football and the only question with him ever was his health, right? I am the most surprised by far by how well Herbert has played. So, borough i guess is is i feel like borough might almost emerge as the forgotten rookie of the group in this chat just because you know the tua thing is fresh and herbert has been kind of one of the the shocks of the season bro is playing exceptionally well so we should just say that up front and i'm sure we'll we'll dive into his case for for rookie of the year and his uh his short term and long term outlook as we go but But to go a little deeper on the Tua and Herbert surprise angles there from the college football perspective, you know, again, with Tua, and if you remember, like, we, in the weeks before the draft, one of the narratives that was really picking up steam was the question of whether Herbert might be drafted ahead of Tua, right?

Remember this? Yep. So I think that one of the things that ended up happening is that a lot of... Sorry to interrupt you, but including potentially by the dolphins. Correct. Right. So I think that one of the things that happened is that a lot of fervent, this is an indefensible consideration positions in terms of the Herbert perspective, came out there in the days before the draft. And maybe people were ragging on Herbert's draft bonafides a little more than they otherwise would have been. specifically because whether you're an NFL draft Nick or somebody who had watched a lot of college tape, it was not a reasonable thing to suggest at that time that Herbert should be drafted before, Tua, based on, again, anything other than really the question of Tua's long-term health.

Now, that's that that that is worth talking about for a minute, though. when the draft evaluation process was underway, Tua returning to full health was not a sure thing. You know, it was the hope, of course, for people who had watched him, obviously for the teams that were considering drafting him, but he was coming off a major, major hip surgery. So my position on Tua was always that he was the best quarterback in the draft,

even ahead of Burrow on the prospect list, if he were healthy. So he looks healthy, and so I'm not surprised that he's playing well. obviously, you know, he's only started two games. I think the fact that he's on the best team of the bunch by far is a variable that we have to throw out there. But just this most recent game, you kind of saw all of it. You saw the physical skill. You saw the ability to invent in real time.

Like his instincts for finding a way to just make a play happen, rally the team around him. You can just feel already in the press conference. sound bites from his teammates from the coaches. There's that, like, energy that he brings to a locker room. And again, like, look back at his college career and what he did at Alabama. I mean, he, one of the, one of the fact toys that college football fans like to throw out the most is that he threw touchdowns on 12.7% of his passes in college, which just absolutely

obliterated and shattered the prior mark. He had a 199.5 pass rating. I mean, he was in the running for the best college quarterback of all time. Seeing him play well in the pros is not going to be a surprise to me. Have you been surprised by Tua? she asks pointedly. So I've been surprised week one to, or not week one, but start one to start to really surprised me.

And I just think it's incredibly unusual to see a quarterback develop before our eyes in a way that looks like it's taking place on a possession to possession basis. because the way that I saw it, the first game, they really did not ask him to do very much, and he looked a little shaky. The second game, they start out most of the first half. It's a lot of play action, some rollouts, some nicely designed stuff. It's getting him in a rhythm.

I think, by the way, we're going to probably have to work in a little bit, a bit of Chan Galey standing here because I think he's having a really good year. But then towards, so they're running their two minute offense before the half. And he hits Laird on a hot read that gets them in position for the field goal that ends up being kind of why they won the game. And it's like no longer is he just in in rhythm and having the easy completions. He's sensing pressure. they had a lot of max protections where he didn't have a lot of receivers out on routes. And he was still able to find the right guy, be patient.

He was feeling the rush, but not bailing and scrambling. There was another really impressive throw to Devante Parker. I forget exactly when it was. But he hit him on an out where he was pretty far behind the line and he could have bailed out and run. And he just stepped up in the pocket. So it's like he's going from not the most impressive first start to some 100 level stuff early in that game. And then all of a sudden it was just like, oh, that's the guy everybody was talking about. Okay.

And I think that's a little bit of an unfair expectation for the rest of this season. I think still we have to keep in mind that he is being asked to do the least of these guys. And when we get to Burrow, it's funny, I don't think I realized until I started going back and looking more carefully at some of these guys' tape that he is in a rough situation. I think he's played so well that it's massed things where if you watch games live, you're like, oh, okay, like Tyler Boyd,

he is getting them out of disasters. And they're still not winning. So it's not great. But I think Tua's going to have a lot of advantages that those guys don't. I mean, Herbert obviously is on a good. a good but cursed team. So I don't know how we parse that. But if that is the kind of improvement that we're going to see, I mean, they'll probably make the playoffs. And then you go from this situation

where health is a huge factor and when he's going to play as a huge factor to a really good opportunity to learn within an infrastructure that I think is pretty clearly the best of all, all three of these. So a little bit of hedging, a little bit of jury is still out, but that was a pretty remarkable second start. I think that what you're describing, though, the ability to basically capitalize on being in a good situation is part of being a franchise quarterback in the NFL. You know, you have to be able to work within the system.

Let's put a pin in that when we, for a second, when we go to Herbert, because the idea of the system is relevant not only for his NFL prospects, but actually for looking back at how people were fairly or unfairly assessing his college play. But with Tua, he's such an intuitive player, right? He just, one of the things that I always just love about draft season and then rookie campaigns is the harmony that emerges when college football fans and NFL fans can agree on something. And then the chasm that emerges when they can. can't. And so often that that is anchored in the idea of of measurables versus intangibles, right? And this like question of basically what shows up at the combine, what shows up in the 40-yard

dash, what shows up when you're when you're checking somebody's box scores and what they did in indie, right, versus what just shows up on the tape. And I think that's just the thing with Tua that is to me like inextricable from assessing him as a prospect is there is really something magical about watching him on the field. That was part of what was so fun, of course, about not just seeing him this past weekend, but seeing him against Kyler Murray, another player who we think of in that way, right? There's just something absolutely electrifying about watching them work wonders and watching the offense and the game come alive around them. And I think that that doesn't, in any.

any way to gate the point you're making about, it's more about from, you know, what you're saying, like him coming alive within the offense versus him making the offense come alive. But I think we would agree that those things can inform each other in the best possible situation for a quarterback in a team. So that's probably the best transition we'll have to Herbert. Right. Because it has not always been that way for him. Right.

Well, and I'll stop you for a second. I think the pre-draft discussion with him is fascinating. Yes. Because it could. he could be polarizing from these two totally different directions, right? So one is that he's your classic traits guy who wasn't super efficient. Right. Tall. In college, Josh Allen, kind of big arm, six foot six, looks great in shorts or whatever it is they're saying. Then there's this whole other element where he loves to read. He's smart. He likes school. He's supposedly a little

quiet. He's not Mr. Ra Ra. And if you go back through some of the scouting reports, there is some weird stuff there about how he didn't have the right leadership qualities and was he going to be able to galvanize a locker room. And we got to be done with that. Like, that stuff is always stupid. I'm so with you. It's so dumb. It has never once been valuable. But in this case, it's kind of fascinating, right? Because, and I'm totally. I'm putting people into boxes here. So this is sort of unfair. But you think of the more analytics-driven group of thinkers as being people who would be less into Herbert because he is that classic tools guy, but someone who didn't have a lot of efficient performances in college,

those are also the people who are not going to be inclined to care about whether someone is yelling in the huddle or I don't even, I even have trouble. talking about this stuff because I just don't know what it is. Like, what exactly is the problem here? So he read a, he read a book. Are we, what? Just what are we doing? But there could be, there were these totally different populations that could look at Justin Herbert and pick them apart in all of these different ways. I think some of it's valuable. Well, I don't, I don't want to spoil the end of this conversation. I'm still going to let some of my, my priors inform how. how I view him long term, at least relative to these other guys.

But the floor, I think, the assumptions about it have to have risen. There's just no way that they happen with how he's played so far. Yeah. No, I think that's exactly right. I agree with you 100% about how absolutely confounding and bizarre all of the conversations about his demeanor were, you know, I'm cognizant of the fact that mere moments ago on this very podcast, we were talking about intangibles and the value of it. But it's a different thing to say that because somebody is more reserved and, you know, quiet and you'd see all these comments about, you know, can he inspire a team?

It's like, is he a hard worker? Is he focused? Is he respectful? Is he talented? Is he capable of playing well? I mean, you know, it's, I, I, I remember during during the, the pre-draft window when all of those comments were surfacing, thinking back to a lot of the conversations around Josh Rosen during draft time.

Yeah. How many NFL teams seemed afraid of the fact that he was well read and outspoken. Now, he was, the concern there was that he was outspoken, not that he was quiet. But again, you know, these, these moments of NFL teams focusing on things that confuse the football viewing public, certainly not new, right? But in Herbert's case, it just seems, as we watch him play now in the NFL every week, to be completely ill-founded, right, as it did at the time that those comments were surfacing. I think that the questions in the draft run up about his play are more worth focusing on now. You know, those were, again, as you said, never about his arm strength,

Right. Huge arm. Cannon arm. We see the deep ball. It's beautiful. It was more about decision-making, consistency, efficiency, as you noted. You know, the Josh Allen comp is interesting because I don't think that to me, watching Herbert in college, it never felt like the accuracy question was really on par with the accuracy question with Josh Allen coming out of college, where it was like, we're literally talking about, can this guy complete more than 50? percent of his passes in the NFL, which is amazing to think about now. But with Herbert, what you'd see often is that he would make these miraculous awe-inspiring throws, where you would say, you know, only somebody with arm strength on that, on par with what he possesses could even attempt something like that, let alone pull it off. But they would just miss wide open receivers. You didn't have these like lapses that were really bizarre. And a lot of that was about what seemed to be maybe the lack of like an anticipatory instinct, right? And how that then translated into the accuracy of his throws.

So I think the question now is, was that fair? Has it changed? And I think one thing that's worth citing, because we mentioned earlier the idea of how player and team inform each other and the importance of consistency, coaching staff scheme, all of that, you know, people have mentioned this a lot with Herbert, but I think it's important to always remember that he, as well as he played in college, and, you know, he was an elite prospect heading into the draft. And if he had come out the prior year, would have been even more touted prospect. Yeah. He never had a chance to establish a consistent rhythm because the

situation kept changing. The coaching staff kept changing. You know, we went from Hellfridge to Tagger to Cristobal. That's a big deal for a player who's young and developing. And the other thing that again, is it's not a new observation, but I think it's just worth resurfacing as we assess the, you know, surprising nature of his play is that he just did not have the talent around him at Oregon that Burrow had at LSU and the Tua had at Alabama, right? Like, he didn't. And now he's throwing to Keenan Allen and Mike Williams. That's a big deal. Now, he's also throwing behind a line that has struggled with injuries, has struggled to protect him,

and is in general on a team that is incapable of pulling out a win, which we'll talk about more shortly. But I think seeing the consistency from him this year has been the most surprising thing when comparing it to what we saw from him in college. You know, you separate it from what they've been able to do as a team in terms of actually finishing the game, which they're not currently capable.

off. But the charges are at a point where the one thing you don't doubt heading into the week is whether Justin Herbert's going to play well. And I think that that is just frankly, kind of astounding. As talented as he was at Oregon, that has been one of the shocks of the season. You're just expecting him to deliver 300 plus passing yards every week. It's amazing. It really is remarkable. We should say with Herbert that it's not that all of those inconsistencies are totally gone because he's had some of the best downfield throws, the best of these three rookies. He has also had the most quarterback fault in completions, which is something that PFF tracks. So there's still a little bit of that that push

pull there that existed in college. But I think we're seeing two things. One, just the talent level being so much better. I think one thing that, and not to keep bringing it back to, you know, love of my life, Josh Allen, but someone who also had some anticipation and touch questions, I think you see that that's something that NFL caliber talent really, really helps, particularly as the league gets better at bringing along these young quarterbacks. I think one thing that's been fascinating to watch over the last few years is the way that receivers are being coached slightly differently, just to understand space and leverage and finding pockets in a defense as opposed to run 12 steps and then break out right here.

There's a little bit of a shift in thinking that's going on there that I think is helping a lot of these guys, particularly if they're playing with a Mike Williams and Keenan Allen that can actually execute it because the deep balls with Herbert have been spectacular. He's also been throwing to wide open pass catchers with at least five yards of separation. on 23% of his targets. So that's something that I don't think you can fault him for. It's context, but it's a credit to him that he's taking advantage of those. But I think when you look into it, it's surprising how well he's played.

But you do, you see the threads coming through there a little bit. And you see how much just using his athleticism more than they did at Oregon, using a little bit of play action, letting him use all of his tools, can open things up for a guy like that. And we also have to remember he didn't, he didn't prepare to do this in a normal way. So we're going to get into, I think we'll do this now, just who we would take for the rest of this year among these guys and then for the long term. But I do just want to say that with Herbert, what makes it so impressive to me is the way that it started. And that's in some ways true with Tua, too.

But I just can't imagine what that must have been like when he was on the. sideline and was just told get in there and get in there. Yeah. But I'll bring it back and just ask you, this year, we can do that first. And then the great beyond the future, how do you kind of stack these guys up? So I think that the question we have to ask ourselves there is, are we separating the player from the situation, right? because despite everything I just said about how surprised I've been by Herbert's record-setting rookie play,

he's still on the Chargers right now. So now, of course, Burrough is also on a struggling team. Let's be clear. I mean, the Bengals are he is getting hit a ton. Tua is the only one of the three who's on a likely playoff team here. I think that in terms of just what we have seen from them individually in a vacuum this year, I would pick Herbert in this thought experiment, but I can't do it. I can't do it because he's on the Chargers and they just seem either determined to blow it every week

or as I know you believe there is perhaps a demonic influence at play here. I'm not like a Cosmos person, but I am out of other answers with the Chargers. I'm just, when Kevin and I were doing the show on Sunday, I felt myself starting to say this thing about the urgency with which they were calling plays on their final drive. And I just felt that pit in my stomach where I was like, this isn't it. This doesn't explain the Chargers. Nothing Earthly explains the Chargers. So yeah, I'm going to be going to be looking at it.

to that. I will tell you that I am ready to, to give it to Herbert. I think he's just being asked to do a lot more. He's averaging 306 yards per game. Tua, it's only two, but he's at 116. We have to acknowledge that at a certain, but let's get totally, I'm right there with you. But also, but, but, but so, okay, this is a, this is a good, a good distinction to draw. What is, what is the at the heart of this thought experiment? Is it which quarterback is going to position our our thought experiment team to win the game? Is it who's going to put up the glossiest stat line for a fantasy football type of execution? Are we thinking about rookie of the year? You know, I think, I think that lens probably helps determine the answer. Like, again, as predicted, we've spent

more time talking about Tijuana and Herbert than Burrow, but, you know, PFF had this, had this great nugget about Burrow last week, just crushing those. intermediate throws, Nora. Those 10 to 19 yards. Crash in him. He's ranked in second, according to PFF, among all quarterbacks since 2006 through week eight. 92.1 grade for those intermediate throws. So there's something appealing about that, right?

But again, I worry about the Bengals' ability to protect him because they have not been able to do that. He's, what has he been sacked? 28 times? 28. We're at the midway point of the season. 28 times. As the kids say, it's not what you want. It's not.

It's this like 10,000 hour rule thing where he's either going to emerge at the end of this season and all of the pressure is going to have turned him into like a diamond. Or it will crush him and he will turn to dust. Like this is not, I think in some ways he's been so stabilizing, which is such a credit to him that we almost don't realize how crazy it is there. Like I was the story of that Titans game. right was that the Titans don't have a pass rush and how bad of a situation that is seemed so much worse when they couldn't get home against this totally banged up Bengals offensive line.

I was looking at a few plays from that and he was, they were almost getting there. And I know that's not saying a lot, but he was just from a borough perspective and what it means for him, he was pulling plays out of, I'm not going to say. There was a third and nine that I watched like 25 times to try to understand what was going on. I have no idea what they were trying to do on that play. It was a completion. They converted it for the first down. He threw what I'm going to call a slant to Tyler Boyd.

But that's a, it was a squiggle. Like, and he just, I think, had a lot of presence of mind. understood that it was third and nine. He threw it so that it was not going to be picked, that there was a defender that was kind of coming down on the receiver. So he put it where it wasn't going to turn into a disaster play. And all I can chalk that up to is Joe Burrow being a badass and going, okay, it's third and nine.

I got to try to make a play to get a first down here. And I'm just going to go for it, even though there's a guy blitzing from my left, a guy blitzing from my right, and they're breathing down my neck. And also, I don't know what route this receiver's running and I don't really know what's going on on the outsides, but I'm just going to find a way to do it in a way that that doesn't end in disaster. And I think in some ways, the more I look back and sort of look at what's going on there, I think more of that is happening than we realize, which is in some ways a huge credit to him and why I do believe that his play is the most sustainable. He's the one that I would want to build around for the long term.

And part of that does have to do with those passes up to 20 yards because that's a much more stable and predictive indicator. He's also making a lot more tight window throws than Herbert is. Two of the sample sizes just love. So it's hard to say. So for Burrow, those are very good signs. The situation, the nature versus nurture that we're always going to get into here, it's dicey. and I think he's doing a good job of masking how dicey it is. But when they play the Steelers, I mean, his,

his worst game this year was against the Ravens. And the Steelers are the only other team that blitz comparably. And I just, well, boy. Yeah, it's, it's almost unfair to have a rookie quarterback out there facing that kind of pressure. It always makes me think of, you know, I watch a lot of baseball. I'm a hundred years old, so I watch a lot of baseball. And it always makes me think of when elite pitching prospects get called up a little too early and get shelled.

And it's not a perfect comp break because he's playing quite well. He's not playing poorly. But when you face something that's that out of the norm for what you're used to as a player at that point. And I think what's interesting about everything you just said about Burrow is the context could not be less similar for him comparing his rookie NFL season to the LSU run last year. It's the opposite end of the spectrum in the sense that, you know, record-setting Heisman campaign, national title, just leaving opponents in the dust week after week. And, you know, you're looking at a Bengals team right now that's, you know, two, five and one in last place in the AFC North. And again, can't protect their franchise quarterback. But the through line is exactly what you just described, which is that.

Joe Burrow just plays with a remarkable amount of conviction. Like the inventiveness and the determination is always so central and on display. So, you know, I think to the question of which would you pick long term, this is like a horseshit cop out. But I kind of think there's no wrong answer in that that's just a really good thing for the NFL. You know, there's this, these three rookies are part of this larger movement, this influx of young quarterback talent, you know, obviously Mahomes, my, my deal. Lamar Jackson, Deshaun Watson, Kyler Murray, your beloved Josh Allen, now we've got Herbert, Burrow, too, on the mix. You know, I guess your mileage may vary on whether you wanted to toss like Baker and Darnold and Drew Locke and Danny Dimes into the mix, right? But we're also

about to have... Mileyledge may vary is a very kind way of saying that. Myledge may vary. We're also about to have Trevor Lawrence and Justin Fields. Trey Lance come in in the draft. Like there's a remarkable, remarkable amount of young quarterback talent in the league. And all three of these rookies are, I think we have already enough evidence to say there are quarterbacks you'd want to, you'd want to build around. So again, I think even the long-term question, you have to think about the position that they're in with the franchises.

And so I have to pick Tua, both because I just, of everything I said earlier and how much I believe in him as a player, if he can stay healthy. And yes, I know, I know health is a skill. everyone will always say that. But if he can stay healthy, I just think what he is able to do on a football field is potentially generational. I really do.

I think he could be that special. And he's in the best situation, as you noted. So while that may be a demerite in your mind in terms of assessing how impressive what we've seen so far is, it ultimately positions him the best long term, I think. I love it. Our dear Ben Glickman is very happy that you said all of that. You're welcome, Ben.

So I think we're going to finish this up, but I just want to ask, do you have a rookie of the year pick at this point? I think it has to be Herbert right now, right? It just has to be. He's going to absolutely shatter the rookie passing records. I mean, he's on Fandler right now. He's the favorite right now in the odds.

And, you know, again, I think that the factor with Tua is the fact that he's on a playoff team, but he's just so far behind in terms of games played and the stat log that he's been able to amass. His potential path is the combination of the playoff team narrative. People love a narrative, Nora. And the fact that he gets a chance to go head to head against both, against both Burrough and Herbert,

if he outplays them head to head and is the face of a, like, exciting, contending hopeful, he could maybe work himself in there, but I think right now it's, it's Herbert's to lose just based on the stats. And he's going to shatter the rookie quarterback touchdown mark. That's pretty notable. If I met Justin Herbert,

I would introduce myself very nicely, strike up conversation. And then I would say, Justin Herbert, have you ever seen a ghost? The ghost that haunts the Chargers facility. All right. On that note, Mallory Rubin,

this has been fantastic. And I would be remiss not to mention that a Halo wearing a Ravens jersey is behind you on your Zoom background. And it has been just wonderful to stare into those eyes, all eight pairs of them or whatever the tiling situation on the Zoom background is doing. So this has been a delight. Thank you for having me. I look forward to you and Ben, Glickman, finding your way to repair and mend to get. And I wish you and Josh Allen a lot of luck in the future. Josh Allen has great Justin Bieber takes. And we'll leave it at that. Add a little excitement to your sports watching experience by betting on all the action on Fandul's sports book this football season. There's a reason why Fandul is America's number one sports book.

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or visit www. www.1-800 gambler dot net in West Virginia. All right, Danny Kelly and Kailen Jones. How are you guys doing? Danny, what's up? You're wearing a hat. I know, it's strange, isn't it?

It's kind of like off-brand for me, but no, I'm doing well. How are you doing? I'm doing pretty well. I'm not wearing a hat, but what is that hat? It's for Nico. It's a cat cafe. There's one in Bellingham and Seattle. My friends own them.

It's really cool. That's a better answer than I possibly could have been expected. Looks pretty smooth. I like it. Just far beyond my wildest dreams. My friends went to Japan and lived in Japan for a while and cat cafes are big there, apparently. And then they brought the idea back to the Northwest. So yeah.

Wow. Kailen, you got any cat cafe stories? I do not. I wish I did. You know, I do love cafes, though. My year in New York was pretty cool because I didn't have many friends out there, but I would just kind of find these random cafes shop. They're little coffee shops and, you know, befriend people want to go.

That's fantastic. I love to hear that. All right. Well, I'm glad you guys are here. We're going to do something that I think will be very fun. We will be redrafting some of our preseason picks. We're going to do Super Bowl matchup and winner, MVP, defensive player of the year and comeback player of the year. And so we're just going to go one by one.

We're going to do it, Snake Draft, Danny Kalin, Nora. Nora Kael and Danny. Alphabetical order by first name. No favoritism here. And we're just going to see who can come up with the team that we think would hold up over the remainder of the season, given what we know now, a little past the halfway mark. So I will remind you guys what your preseason picks were. Danny, you had Kansas City over New Orleans in the Super Bowl. Your MVP was Patrick Mahomes.

creative. Your defensive player of the year was Nick Bosa. So it's a little tough. Comeback player of the year. Ben Rathesberger. Sorry, I didn't mean to drag you while I'm explaining this. It would have been fine if he didn't get hurt. But yes. Yes. Very good player. Just not not playing. Kalin, you had Kansas City over Tampa Bay in the Super Bowl. Your MVP was Lamar Jackson. Your defensive player of the year was T.J. Watt, and your comeback player of the year was Cam Newton. I had New Orleans over Kansas City in the Super Bowl, Patrick Mahomes as my MVP. So two lucky winners will be able to draft Patrick Mahomes as their MVP in this draft. Miles Garrett is my defensive player of the year and Alex Smith as comeback player of the year. So, Danny Kelly,

you are on the clock. I got to say, most of these feel pretty accurate. Um, There's a few obvious outliers that aren't going to happen. But I'm going to go, I'm going to pick my own Super Bowl pick to start with because I like it the most. Casey over New Orleans. And based on everything we've seen over the last few weeks, it feels like a pretty good guess. All right. Kaelin? I'm going to go with Patrick Mahomes MVP.

I'm going to steal one of you guys's MVP picks because I did pick Lamar Jackson originally, but, you know, the regression was going to happen. But, you know, Patrick Mahomes' second best odds across the board on most Vegas betting sites. And, you know, his schedule is pretty favorable as far as if he performs well, it'll look a little bit better than some of those other guys like Russell Wilson and Aaron Rogers. So I'm going to bet on the guy who's the flashiest and kind of the face of the week for, you know, carrying the 1-8-1 team left in the AFC. All right. So then I am going to take Kalin's Super Bowl pick of Kansas City over Tampa Bay and not. be scared off by Saints bucks.

I'm still riding that Buccaneers wave. Oh boy. You're not like one of those people that's totally given up on the whole thing based on one game? You know, I'm not.

I think if you look back to when they played the Packers, one thing I thought was interesting from that was that the Bucks were so able to kind of confuse Aaron Rogers, it seemed like, and that is a tall task. and they were not able to do that against Drew Breeze.

However, I do think that their linebackers are going to be able to put that spell back on some quarterbacks. And I'm trusting that it's going to be maybe not a complete one game fluke, but I don't think that they're going to be getting blown out of the water like that. So I have taken, okay, I have Kalin's Super Bowl pick of Kansas City over Tampa Bay. And then actually, Kaelin, I'm going to take another one of your picks. So good job by you. I'm going to take your defensive player of the year pick of T.J. Watt, who I think is a really strong candidate playing on one of the most aggressive and best defenses in the league, the Steelers. I guess all of my picks are just like, if week nine hadn't happened, would look a little better.

But I'm not scared off by one game. I can't blame you. Did Danny take one of the Super Bowl picks already? Yeah, I took Casey over New Orleans. See, that's a really good pick. Oh, man. I'm going to go with Miles Garrett then, defensive player to year. I think that he has a legitimate shot at it.

I know that Cleveland is not right now, you know, looking, they're on the outside looking in as far as the playoff picture, but this guy who, honestly, he's been one of the most efficient defensive players in the league, and, you know, he has a legitimate case for it. that was my pick. That was my preseason pick. And I think he's played spectacularly. The only reason I didn't go for that straight up at the top was I just worry about his health.

But I think that's a strong move. Let's see. We're back with Danny. Oh, man. So you guys have really screwed me over on the defensive player of the year award since the guy that I'm going with played like two games. So I'm going to, I'll just wait on that one until the very end since that would be the obvious move. I'm going to take Mahomes because at this point it looks like. like for MVP because it looks like there's not really any shot lamar jackson's going to you know

claw his way back into the MVP discussion at this point he's um i wouldn't say he's been struggling but he's definitely falling off uh his performance from last year mohomes on the other hand looks more like the 2018 MVP that he was 20 i think i saw this 25 touchdowns and one interception on the year he's the first guy to do that through 20 through nine games in his season 25 to only one or fewer interceptions so I mean, he's just been incredible. Just passed Dan Marino for the fastest quarterback to 100 touchdowns in his career. He did in 40 games.

So, you know, Mahomes playing the way he is, doing the extraordinary plays that he's capable of doing. And then also, obviously, the Chiefs being, like, one of the top Super Bowl favorites in the NFL right now. I think all those things add together to make Mahomes a pretty good choice. and since Russell Wilson wasn't on here, you know, he's kind of out of the conversation anyway. So Mohamed's to me looks like a really, you know, obvious pick for MVP this year. I also think as so much of the top of the league looks sort of murky right now, there aren't a lot of teams where we're like, oh, that's a complete team with no weaknesses that hasn't had any one game where they've looked bad. I think that's going to, we're probably around the corner from just, lot of, oh, here come the Chiefs.

Did we forget about the Chiefs narrative stuff coming back? Because they're waiting. I got the ball rolling on that. Actually, in my power rankings this week, I was like, man, the Chiefs quietly are just extremely good and no one's really talking about it. So, yeah, I totally agree. I think they could be a second half team in terms of like narratives and stuff like that. I want to say, I want to point out real quick,

Nora, I believe you and I both mentioned Josh Allen as Dark Horse MVP. candidates. Heck yeah. I can't remember if Kaelan did too, but we were on this a little bit. I don't know if we necessarily truly believed it. You know, if we were just like maybe throwing it out there. But yeah, I mean, he's definitely lower, I guess, in the odds now than he was a few weeks ago, but big game against Seattle, put him back on the map. So we'll see. He's wonderful. And I was talking to Mallory about some of the young quarterbacks earlier on the podcast. On the and I would be remiss if I did not mention yet again, extremely good takes on Justin Bieber.

I really want that to like penetrate the discourse about John Allen. Danny, I think you get to make another pick. All right. So I'm going to go with, oh, this is tough. I'm going with a comeback player of the year, Alex Smith, which I think was a great choice, Nora. I think Ben Rothsberg is definitely in it too. just based on the way he's been playing.

I wouldn't say he's done anything that's super, super impressive at this point. He's kind of just been a game manager for them. You know, the Steelers have been more or less a dink and dunk offense. They've gotten the job done. I wouldn't say he's been super, you know, he's not playing like he wasn't his prime. On the other hand, Smith has not been impressive either in his lone start. I guess he's had, you know, a start plus a little bit of action in another game. But if he ends up being a starter going on,

going forward now with with Kyle Allen out for the season, then, you know, he has a chance to be, I mean, just the fact that he's playing, like makes him like a part of this award. So coming back from that gruesome injury, if he can get it going a little bit more than he did last Sunday, then obviously then it'll help his chances here. But I'm going with Alex Smith purely based on the fact that it's incredible to be that he's even playing football. Kalen. That's a good pick.

I'm going to go right after you and steal Cam Newton back as the comeback player of Nier. I mean, when we talk about Cam Newton, I know that, you know, obviously this year is not gone as planned for the Patriots. It's been super unfortunate over the past few weeks. And then even last night or Monday night with, you know, them barely squeaking out a win against the Jets. Not the strongest a comeback player picks here. But, you know, looking at the schedule moving forward, there is a chance, at least a pathway where if Camden were to somehow channel MVP form and we've been saying this all season,

like Kenny channel that form that led him to be an all pro type player. He hasn't really shown it so far, but there's still eight games on the stretch. The AFC is kind of wide open in terms of that last two playoff spots. I mean, especially with this primetime matchup against Baltimore this upcoming week,

it wouldn't be shocking if Camden had a vintage performance and everyone is suddenly talking about him again. Cam, I think, is playing better than people realize. I think the Patriots in general are such a dumpster fire, and he's taking a lot of criticism for that. And he's actually, except in a couple instances, like, losing the game against the bills at the very end, he's been not their biggest problem. However, I do not think that a burgeoning connection with Jacoby Myers, when they're almost definitely not going to make the playoffs, is going to be enough to wrap up comeback player of the year. I will make my selection. I love Jacob Myers.

I too love Jacobi Myers. Comeback Player of the Year voters, I'm not convinced, feel quite so strongly the same way. I will choose Ben Rathesberger, comeback player of the year for my next pick. I just think even though they're basically just asking him to not lose games,

it's still a famous quarterback on a good team who had an injury last year. So it's at least, in the cards. It's in the realm of the narrative. We're not relying on Jacoby Myers at the very least. And then,

let's see. So I have Kansas City over Tampa in the Super Bowl, T.J. Watt, defensive player of the year, Rathlisberger, comeback player over the year, which I believe leaves me taking Kalin's Lamar pick for MVP.

Yes. Something I would have something I came close to selecting myself in the preseason. I don't think it looks quite as good now, but he could turn it on. I think that's, that's, I don't think that's a horrible situation for me to be in. Yeah, is there, is there a scenario where he could if he just all of a sudden go scorched earth? I mean, obviously the Ravens are a very good team and they're going to be a playoff team. So that foundation gives them, gives them an opportunity to like change the narrative

over the second half of the year, right? Yeah. possible. And it's also, again, the league is wide open enough that he could squeak in there, especially if the chiefs aren't putting up 50 points a game anymore.

And we start poking holes in the Wilson. I mean, Wilson's has seven turnovers in the last three games. I think you can hear in my voice that I don't believe in this, but that's it. That's my team. I got it. Yeah.

Kaelan, I believe it's back to you. Yeah. And I'm going to, I'm taking your Super Bowl pick of New Orleans over Kansas City. And I take it with the caveat that I do not believe in New Orleans at all, despite them being a kind of, they don't have too many, you know, obvious flaws. But they're kind of like the clippers of the NFL. You know, like they're, they are. They are. The phenomenal, phenomenal regular season team, right?

But over the past three seasons, and actually over the past decade, you know, aside from that ring, that was 10 years ago, 2010, 2009, you know, they haven't really been that good in the postseason. And it kind of reminds me of like the Clippers where, you know, in 2015, they have the Lopsity era. We have Blake Griffin, Chris Paul, with Clippers, and they ended up choking the West Conference semifinals. And then this past year, 2020, Clippers choked the 3-1 lead against Nuggets with Kauai Leonard and Paul George. But I know the Saints have a ring, but look, 2010. They lost the 7-Nine Beast Mode Seahawks led by Matt Hasbeck. 2011 was a good loss. They lost to Alex Smith and the Niners.

But 2013, they lost the Seahawks, led by Russell Wilson, but they only scored 15 points all in the fourth quarter. And then you have the last three years. Case Keenham and the Minneapolis Miracle, 2018, Jared Gough, and the Rams who looked off on the Super Bowl. And then last year, the Kirk Cousins, Vikings. The Saints are the Clippers. They can't get it done.

They're so not that. Yeah, they have a depressing. They have a depressing playoff history when you think about it. That was masterful, Kailen. Yeah. And he got the Hasselbeck reference in there. It really got Danny jazzed up. I love my house.

I was just thinking about that. I forgot about the other Saints win in the playoffs. The Seahawks went over the Saints. I completely forgot about that one. I'm just thinking about the Beast Mode forever, though. So that leaves me stuck with Nick Bosa for defensive player of the year. I was just waiting until you realized. I've played this terribly.

In our preseason pick three draft, Mr. Irrelevant is Defensive Player of the Year, Nick Boza. We're very sorry you got hurt. You are a fabulous player and we are all worse off for not getting to watch you. So true. Yeah. Can I get a like a replacement in there at all or what's the deal? Am I just stuck with the guy who's absolutely not playing?

Since I did provide you. guys with limited options here. If you wanted to make one awards prediction now that we are midway through the season, what would it be? Among these choices, right? I'm going to go, I'm going to... Anything.

That's a good question. That is a good question. I mean, I actually really like my team for the most part. I feel like I'm going to get all these right, except for the Nick Bosa one. So can I just change mine to Aaron Donald? Is that too easy? Yes, you may.

I'll see. I want to switch up my Super Bowl pick. Sorry, go ahead, Danny. No, no, no. I was just going to say, like, Aaron Donald's just the easy choice. I mean, he's still in the race. Best defensive player in the NFL,

pretty much obviously. I don't know if he'll get the award, but he's going to be in the race. So I'm putting him in. So you think the guy that gets triple teamed and is still healthy and on a competitive team, is more likely to get it than Nick Boza

than our guy Nick. Probably. Yeah. I think that's sound logic. Kalin? I want to, you know, change a lot. But I'm going to switch my Super Bowl pick. I'm going to steal my Kansas City over Tampa Bay back

because like you said, I think Tampa Bay is still a legitimate team, even though they look bad this past week. And then defensive player to year, I want to switch Miles Garrett for Aaron Don. Like Dan just mentioned, he's been the most dominant defensive player in the league, still leads the league in sacks,

even though like nor are you mentioned, he's being triple-teamed as an interior defensive linemen. And also my comeback player of the year, I love Cam Newton, but, you know, Alex Smith is a pretty strong pick, I guess, just because of the fact that he's going to end up starting these next few games.

As much as I think he's a miraculous person, I picked Alex Smith to win comeback player of the year, and my hope was that he would play like two snaps, and it would just be this like, you did this thing that you really cared about and we're all really proud of you. now he has to play for the Washington football team and behind that offensive line. And it gives me a weird taste in my mouth, but I still think that he is a miraculous human being.

And if this is the choice that he's made and it's meaningful to him to play, then I support him. I have a question. Are we missing any obvious Super Bowl matchups that we haven't really discussed here? Slash winners slash matchups? Well, we all have. No one sucks about the Packers or the Steelers. We also all have Kansas City. Yeah.

In it. Not necessarily winning, but we have eliminated the rest of the AFC. Yeah. With apologies to them. I actually feel more confident in that than I would have maybe even preseason now. Yeah. The NFC is a whole, the NFC is just wide open. I feel like it could be one of eight teams in the NFC.

The AFC is like two or three. but yeah. Yeah, maybe, I mean, maybe we're missing a little bit of what would it be for you, some Steelers love. If we're talking about the AFC, I still think the Ravens are dangerous.

I still think the bills are really interesting in terms of like if they get hot, they could beat anybody. On the NFC side, I honestly think any of the Saints, Packers, bucks, Seahawks, and then like throw in a random-ass team,

like maybe the freaking, in Rams or something could like just make a run in the playoffs. It's it's that wide open to me. The random ass Rams. I think that was a daft punk album. Are we going to talk? Can the dolphins make the playoffs? Are the dolphins going to the playoffs?

The dolphins are in the playoffs right now. Yep. Yeah. I love that. I love it. They might make the place. Tua's going to get hot and then all of a sudden the dolphins are going to be like the real dark horse in the AFC.

Spicy. Danny. Jumping in here. All right. I think that's where we're going to end it. Thanks, guys. This has been fun. This has been the Ringer NFL show. Thank you for listening. Next up on our feed is going to be Warren Sharp and Joe House. We'll be in on Friday. Previewing week 10, getting into some betting nuggets, lots of other juicy stuff.