The Ringer NFL Show - Secrets, Rumors, and Takeaways From the NFL Combine | The Ringer NFL Show (Ep. 241)

Episode Date: March 2, 2018

The Ringer's Robert Mays and Kevin Clark team up in Indianapolis to discuss the dirty little secret of the NFL combine (02:00), what they most anticipated heading into it (05:00), rumor-mongering from scouts (09:00), the draft value of Saquon Barkley (14:30), Jon Gruden's comments regarding data (25:15), the new confidence of the 49ers (33:15), the brash remarks regarding the QB situation in Minnesota from Mike Zimmer (40:15), and the upcoming on-field workouts for the quarterbacks (48:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, Robert Mace here. On today's Ringer NFL show, we talk about what we're looking for and have already learned at this year's NFL Combine. As always, we're brought to you by the Ringer podcast network, where you can hear a ton of great Oscars conversations right now, including Sean Fentasy and Wesley Morris, revisiting the 2013 Oscar race on the Bill Simmons podcast. I missed Sean and Wesley talking about movies together. It's always a blast. Also, please go to The Ringer.com and check out the piece our good friend Danny Kelly wrote about some of the prospects that could. wow us at this week's combine. That's a fun one and should get you ready for all the testing here over the next few days. All right. With that, let's get to the show. To the Ringer NFL

show, part of the Ringer podcast network. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark. Kevin, you're sitting three feet away from me, a hotel room in Indianapolis. There's a piece of furniture between us. Yeah, there's like a weird ottoman, two Ottomans, a dual Ottoman. They're not that weird. It's a strange color of orange. Yeah. And I don't know why that there are two, maybe for each person on this weird couch? I don't know what to tell you. It's your hotel room, buddy. Yeah.

So we're at a hotel in Indianapolis because we're here for the Combine, man. Yeah. This is, uh, we do this every year. Great. It's been a lot of years now. We first met here at the Combine in 2013. That sounds right. And famously,

was it 2013? I believe that to be the case. Okay. I believe 2013 or 2014. And you made a comment about the 09 Magic, which you had to, to send an email apologizing for at a bar. Yeah, that happens a lot. Just me sending apology emails.

And me getting mad about someone sliding the 2009 magic. Sure. Yeah. So this week is something that we're pretty used to at this point. I mean, it's just one of those things where, you know, it feels like the same machinations over and over again. But it's always fun. I mean, there's just a lot to be learned. There's a lot that kind of comes out this week.

And yeah, I'm happy to be. There's a fundamental problem with the way this is set up, which is that all the coaches and general managers talk on Wednesday and Thursday. The testing starts in earnest on Friday. Yes. And so the dirty little secret of the combine is that the vast majority of coaches, and a lot of GMs have not seen the bulk of these prospects. It's not even a dirty little secret at this point.

A lot of the coaches just are upfront about the fact that I haven't watched any of these guys. A good example is Anthony Lynn was asked about Lamar. Jackson on on Thursday and he was like yeah I watched two games on TV and that's that's pretty standard these guys have not dug in the GMs have dug in if there's a position of need or you know I think on some of the quarterbacks they'll have gotten a little more in depth but I mean generally they start talking about these guys before they've seen them I think if they if the NFL actually wanted rational analysis of prospects from coaches and GMs they'd have media availability of the end, but coaches and GMs don't want to publicly analyze these.

Of course. And also, I mean, as a lot of head coaches said today, you know, Mike Zimmer pretty much said, I haven't lost any of the quarterbacks. Right. They're doing free agent stuff right now. I mean, free agency is the more pressing issue here. They just happen to have the combine in February for a reason that I don't totally understand. But that's how it goes.

So, yeah, there isn't a lot of material about the players from coaches and GMs this week, but there is a lot just about team building. you know, kind of their own free agents. I mean, those are more of the conversation, more of the information that comes out here over the two days that we've talked to with coaches and GMs. So we've added a couple things. We'll get to some of them later.

Sean Payton drew up a game plan for Philadelphia after the Minnesota miracle because he wasn't ready for football to end. Really? I did not hear him say that. That's some creepy stuff. How long do you think he spent on it? It was like a whole week-long endeavor. It's literally Shutter Island.

We're just going to let him... Is that surprising to you? I don't think it's that surprising. Did he drew up a game plan? Yeah. Football coaches are weird people. It surprises me that he was specifically for Philadelphia in sort of a, like he was getting ready to play the game.

It doesn't surprise me he was doing work the week after. I'm really curious if he thought the game was actually happening. Like if you asked him on Tuesday, do you guys play on Sunday? What does your response would be? Yeah. I, that was, that seems like a weird situation to me. We also found out that John Gruden thinks it's 1998 literally as well.

We're going to get to that and we're going to get to some of the other things we've learned already this week. But before we do that, I want to start with more of the outlook here. So what would you say, Kevin, is the thing you are most anticipating this week? So the Combine is the weirdest event on the calendar. And the reason is because you don't know who won and lost immediately. You don't even know what's going to happen. I mean, at least, I mean, the draft is sort of an abstract event,

but at least you know who's on the team, right? And with the combine, the medical stuff is probably the most important thing. Yes. Completely private. We have no idea what happened. And even if there are leaks, they're not relevant. And if you don't have all the information, you have no idea, okay? Sure.

The psychological evaluation, completely private. And again, even if we had the information, we wouldn't know. what to do with it. So the only thing you can take from this as a public draft observer, unless you're hacking the system and finding out everything that's done in private is the athletic numbers. Now, you just have to figure out through basic, you know, years of study, really, what matters. You know, Barclay just did 29 reps on the bench press. It's absurd. It's absurd, but Nile Davis did 31. You know, and so I understand he has strength.

Jerich McKinnon did 32, I think. Jerich McKinnon's quiet combine monster. His combine was unbelievable. Yeah, great. He's the third round pick. I'm just saying. I know, I know. I'm just saying... Like, we talk about great combines in the last, like, 10 years. Jerich McKinn doesn't often come up.

He was incredible with a combine. His spark score was like off the charts, which I don't know why you don't love Jerich McKinnon more. It seems like he's up your alley. No, I'm just saying, I mean, the bench press is okay. I mean, I think the bench press is probably more of an elimination drill, where if you do like, if you do too reps, maybe that's a red flag, but if you can do 50 reps, that's fine. You know, who cares?

I think that we've gone over this. Vertical jump matters to me. Broad jump matters to me. The three cone matters a lot to me. Change of direction explosion. Those are the things I look for. And they're really the only things we can take without sort of getting information handed to us. And also, I'm sort of against.

sort of combine rumor mongering. I think it's dangerous. I think it's bad. So I like to go off of the pure numbers, and that's how I view the combine. So just to throw one out there, so Orlando Brown, the tackle from Oklahoma today.

Did he what he said? Did 14 reps on the bench. What do you say? He said, I've been fat my entire life, which is a great quote. It's a great quote. Is that a rationalization of only doing 14 reps on the bench on the bench?

I don't think he was a tackle. I don't think he was addressing his, his reps. I just think he wanted to let everyone to know he's been fat since day one. Me too, but I, if I did, like, if I, I wouldn't, I couldn't do 14 reps of 225. But if you do 14, sure, sure, a lot of tackles have long arms. 14 is troubling. I don't know if I have long arms. I don't think I have long arms.

I think I have normal sized arms. Like when I go get a shirt or a suit, it's regular. I get regular. I'm not a tall man. I have an abnormally large head. Interesting. I have to, I almost have to like not be able to,

I can't really, like I can buy fitted hats, but sometimes they don't have the size because it's a little bit. Seven and a quarter for me. I'm a little bigger than that. Yeah, I don't buy fitted hats anymore,

but I've never had a problem. Yeah, I can most, buy mostly just standard fit clothes. I don't need any alterations in terms of length. I'm a very like normal size human. Yes, but, but he's not strong. He's like,

But he's not strong. I couldn't do 14 reps to 225 and I've been fat my entire life. Sure. That's not my job. Unfortunately, it is his job. Can you do 225 once? No,

not right now. I could before. Yeah, I think it was younger. Probably times. When I was younger, I could do like five times. Sure.

But I couldn't do it once now. About once a year I got hit by a car and, uh, and lose all my strength. But I'll build it back up. There you go. Um, so there's a couple of things.

I want to get back to the rumor mongering for a second because the more combines I come to, the more upset I get at some of the things that I hear. Because I have a tremendous amount of respect for scouts. I have a tremendous amount of respect for front office people they do and coaches. They do a lot of work on this stuff. But I think the flippant nature of some of the rumors that get spread around here about guys or so-and-so is lazy. So-and-so is stupid.

So-and-so can't read the playbook. He doesn't practice hard. You know, sports. figures tend to deal in absolutes. And there are facts and then there's conjecture and innuendo. And the amount of innuendo and rumors you hear around here is incredible, considering how long we have of a track record of those things just being flat out wrong. And if you and there's so many guys say, oh, this guy's a top prospect. Oh, well, he's stupid.

He doesn't work hard. I mean, I just think that we have such a long track record of rumors being disproven that I can. can't believe we still fall for these sort of rumors around the combine. Yes. I mean, I just, this whole cult of thinking that scouts are gospel, when by the way, every team has a different opinion of a player. Yes. Every scout is a different opinion.

Every single scout has a different opinion. And every single team has different scouts. And yet, when you hear one scout say one thing, you go, oh, that's it for that guy. And I used to be guilty of this. When we were young, you would hear one scouts. say, okay, this guy is just not going to make it. And then you believe that because he's the only scout you talked to. But then you're in year five and year six.

I'm in year five and a half of covering the NFL. And I've heard enough scouts say, this guy's going to flop and he doesn't flop. To say, okay, I'm going to take everything with a grain of salt. There's just too many people around the combine. And it frustrates me who just take these rumors and innuendo as gospel. And not just, or just rogue scouting reports are not even true. Yeah, I don't even buy

most of that anymore. I just don't listen to most of it anymore. Like I just, the combine for me, the thing I'm most looking forward to is just what the running backs look like on stopwatches and tape measures.

I deal in facts. Yeah, I don't like. You hear all these coaches, right? And when I don't deal on hypotheticals. I don't deal on hypotheticals. Well, all of this combine stuff that's not raw data

is hypotheticals. Yeah. And I think, and by the way, some of the, this whole thing, oh, I got a bad recommendation

with a coach or whatever. I understand there's some of that. I also know I can tell you, and I've been, you know, these are a million miles off the record. I could never say names. Some of the greatest players in the history of football have been absolutely dunked on by their college coaches. Don't draft them.

Don't draft them. So what I'm trying to say, I guess, is that take everything that happens in pre-draft anything with a massive grain of salt. Yeah, with a bag of salt. I completely agree with that. And that's why it just, all the noise and everything that goes into it. I think Shanahan said it today, which I thought was interesting.

He's like, we get 15 minutes with these people. So you get to the real person 13 minutes in. It's like, you don't put stock in this. It's like, you can. He's like, in my career, I put too much in and I put too little in. And I think that for the most part, it's too much. That's where people lean. What I want to see is like, I'm curious, at Sego on Barclays, 6 foot, 233 pounds.

What's his 4'10? Like, just three count. What does he move? Like, what does he look like at that size? All those running backs, I think, have a chance to do something really fun. I mean, those guys just are incredible Uber athletes. And just seeing which guys really stand out, that's fun to me. It's not the most important thing.

We've learned that a million times. But that's the stuff that I care about coming from the college player side of the combat. I totally agree with you. I mean, that's how do these guys move? The medical stuff is super important. Yes. I do think there's things in psychological evaluations that can come out if, they're done correctly.

I mean, there's some teams that love throwing, you know, Tyler Boyd revealed this and I'll never forget it. Tyler Boyd revealed that the Bengals asked

him about the Civil War. Now, that's really funny. I don't know that's effective or not. I assume there's a rationale behind it. It's possible

that just history buff Mike Brown just wanted to talk about the Civil War. I don't really know. But how would you deal with the Civil War question? What do you mean?

Is it like about a specific part of the Civil War? Yeah, how's your Civil War knowledge? Solid? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's not as good as it once was. I was a big Civil War nerd when I was a kid.

But it's, that's falling off a little bit. It always does. Yeah. Can't keep up with it. No. There's too much. The Civil War expanded universe is just too big. I mean, you had probably bouts in your life where you got really into specific errors in

history, correct? Oh, sure. Yeah. Every history. Well, you know, mostly just post like 1800. Yeah, I didn't, nothing before that. I've been an American Revolution guy I took it I never was

that was the thing I was least interested in in terms of like American armed conflicts I took a 20th century the 20th century the 20th century in the 20th century class in college incredible like that was like that I just like dug in Germany in the 20th century 20th century in Germany so essentially just kind of like how

like the rise of even like what happened how we got to World War I and then just all the ramifications from that there out of that I took a class like that too there was just so many elections I got bored and stopped paying attention And then there was, I swear to God. It was like, then there was another election. There's a lot of elections.

Okay, guys, I got this. I got it. I got it. One of the other things I wanted to just before we move on here about the running backs, and I kind of noticed today, I was looking at, obviously it's not filled out yet, but Zach Whitman's just a spark page with all the heights and weights. There seemed to be a lot of really big running backs. Barclays 233, Chubbs 227.

The couple other guys, Royce Freeman's 229. These guys are getting up there in the, you know, 220. 25, 230 pound range. Not a lot of small guys in this class. And we always talk about this. You know, Barnwell did speed score however long ago. I mean, this is about 40 times don't exist in a vacuum. How big are these people?

And I just think if some of these guys rip off times at these sorts of weights, I mean, that's intriguing. I mean, those are big fast backs. I mean, there are a lot of, we've talked about this a lot. I think everyone's mentioned that the running back class is very good. I'm just curious physically and athletically how good are they? I have a question. I don't know the answer to this. Maybe you do.

So last year we saw a lot of first and second round DBs who had the requisite size. They had the speed. And the explanation was that six, seven, eight, nine years ago, high school coaches realized where the passing game was going as far as the spread. And they said, okay, we need cornerbacks because there was a real shortage, you know, in high school ranks 10, 12 years ago. And we saw that in the NFL where there was just a shortage of really good shutdown. cornerbacks. And so high school programs all over the country started to flip the dominant receiver to

a dominant cornerback and then that has made its way to the NFL. Okay? You would think that having seen the way sports and football has gone, that a similar thing would have happened against the running back position. The running back position had become so devalued in the NFL,

the great athletes would not want to play it and they would find another area to play in. To make money, to have a longer NFL career. Yet, it seems like the athletes at running back are better than they ever have been. I was going to write about this like two years ago. There's something that was like, I'm going.

Why is the running back still here? I think there's a lure to the position that it's just endures. I also think if you're just that explosive and can cut that way, there's nothing else you can do. Because you play it early. If you were the best players as a kid, you play running back.

I mean, you don't play quarterback. That comes a little bit later. Safety, you could play. That's what I always thought is if you were really good. If you don't want to hit, that's all another issue. I always,

I think it's just that from the younger, the youngest you are, when you're five, six years old and you're playing football, they just toss you the ball outside and you run for touchdowns. That's how you affect the game when you're really good early.

And I think that's what kids do. They just fall in love with the position and they keep playing it. All right. Here's my question about Barclay specifically. Okay. We have a nice whole uptick, nice last couple years of top 10 running backs.

Todd Gurley, 1004 net, Ziki. knowing what we know now would you take a guy like Barkley in the top 10 as Robert May's industries running a team do you take a guy like Barkley in the top 10 maybe I think I would if I was the right team it was the right situation depends on the breath how about this how about this cop-out

answer it depends on the rest of my roster great stuff Robert thank you thank you for that analysis Dave Caldwell said he talked yesterday and he said that he said that he running back, specifically Leonard Fournett, obviously, as they always viewed that at the last piece. And my guess is the Cowboys viewed that. The Cowboys viewed that as well. Sure. That makes a lot of sense. If you're the Giants and you're looking at and what's that? I think that's a great point. Like the Giants have so much to do. Yes. That you're not going to do. What are you going to do with Barkley? What are you going to do with them? Have them run for five and a half yards per carry and go two and

I think that the running back that can transcend his supporting cast is extremely rare. I think that you could argue that there was a period where Marshaun Lynch could. And I think that there are a lot of eras of, there's a lot of versions of Adrian Peterson that could. Those players are exceedingly hard to find. And I think that if you don't think he's that guy, he's probably not worth the top 10 pick. I also feel like, okay, let's go it this way. This version of Todd Gurley this season, is he a top 10 pick? That's my question.

I think that the past catching is what really changes the game a little bit. Shannon had said this today too. He said that we're talking about running back value and he was talking about Levion Bell. He said if Levi-on-Bel was in this draft, you'd go in the top five. Yep. If you have a guy that can do it all, you don't necessarily say we need to do this by committee. We need to change a pace. We need a pass-catcher.

If you have a guy that can fill all those roles, he becomes increasingly valuable. And I think that if Berkeley can do that, which apparently by all accounts, he's a very, good past catcher and can, then I think that it starts to become a conversation. I wouldn't necessarily take him in the top 10 because I do think that running back is just a difficult position to clean that much value from. But Fournette's not a pass catcher. You know, things like that. I mean, he's not going to get that value for you. If Barclay can, then I think it opens a door to possibly being worth it. So here's the question. So there doesn't seem, I'm still hesitant, though.

If going by our guideline and Dave Caldwell's guideline that the running back, the explosive running back needs to be last, I don't necessarily see a team in the top 10 where you could say that. Now, obviously I think Barkley's going to go. I obviously think that Barclay will go in the top 10. But if you have Cleveland, Giants, Colts, Browns again, Denver, Jets, Bucks, Bears, are we intrigued by the Niners with Barclay? I am, but I also think that they're the further, I mean, they're extremely far away. Oh, sure. And the interior of the offensive line, everything else. And I'm intrigued just because I feel like Barclay, Jimmy, the receivers that they already

have, Gerson, Goodwin, whoever they go get at that position, if they do go get somebody, that becomes a really fun, really fast. It's kind of the Elliott thing all over again in my mind where maybe it's not necessarily the best value, but the entertainment value of it in that offense with the rest of those pieces is something I'd still like to see. If he's, I don't think he'll be there. Again, I want to emphasize that I don't think he's going to be towards the back half of the top 10. I think he'll be selected earlier.

If he's there for Oakland, knowing what John Gruden, it's intriguing just because you have the line there, you have a team that did compete two years ago. My only thing is that John Gruden has never valued. God, Tom Cable. I mean, Tom Cable is not playing on the offensive line. Sure, but he's coaching the offensive line. players are good, but I'm still like, I don't want to put Sakele and Barclay behind

a line coached by Tom Cable, even though the players are good. Also, Gruden has never although he was the coach of a team that drafted Cadillac Williams fifth overall. Yeah, that was strange. I think that Cleveland is more interesting than you do. Because

I think that Cleveland does have the offensive line to make it work. You have those guys on the interior. I think if you plugged him in behind that, it becomes pretty intriguing. John Doer, He's all over it. I mean, I'm very curious to see what he ends up running. John Dorsey gave me a hug today.

Never had that from a GM today. Look at you. Good job, buddy. Never had that. All right. Before we get to what we've already learned, not what we are hoping to learn, after two days at the Combine, let's take a quick break. Hey, it's Bill Simmons.

I wanted to tell you about the revamped Ringer NBA show podcast. We are Monday through Friday on Mondays. John Gonzalez hosts Heat Check. bounce around, talk to a bunch of different ringer staffers about the weekend that was and what's coming up on Tuesdays. Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor, America's favorite couple.

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or wherever you get your podcast. All right, buddy. So this is the smartest move of the month brought to you by ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. Kevin, I'm going to go with every team that sees Lamar Jackson as a quarterback. Yeah, pretty smart move. Because I think that if you're looking for an

If you're looking to better your workforce, the most important thing I feel is to build your approach around the skill sets of your talent of your employees, of the people that you can bring on. And I think that looking at Lamar Jackson and not seeing someone worth acquiring and worth trying to build around is just short-sighted. It's not the way to accrue talent. It's not the way to move forward in the current NFL. And if you can watch that guy and say, you know what, I don't want that. I want something I've never seen before. I just don't understand that. Andy Reid said it best said you want to exhaust what you know they can do before going to option B.

And I think that's the best way to put it. So for me, I think the biggest change in the NFL this year is going to be analytics. Every team's going to get all the data for all 32 teams. They're going to be able to build models. They're going to be able to do things they've never been able to do with data. And a couple of teams, Oakland Writers, have come out and said, we're not going to do that. We're trying to take football back to 1998. We're going to do it with the old-fashioned way.

And I just think that you look at the teams who have gone forward thinking. The Philadelphia Eagles just won the Super Bowl using analytics. The Jacksonville Jaguars have built analytics. Going back, the Baltimore Ravens for five years have had it. I think in order to be a forward-looking organization, in order to maximize what you want to do with your 53-man roster, your coaching staff, the management, you have to give your employees the best tools. and that includes all access to data. That was the smartest move of the month brought to you by ZipRecruiter. 80% of employers who post on ZipRecruiter,

find a quality candidate through the site in just one day. Try it free today at ZipRecruiter.com slash ringer NFL at ZipRecruiter.com slash ringer NFL. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. All right, buddy. So what would you say is the one tidbit that you have learned so far that has stood out the most to you? Okay. So I'm intrigued.

And again, let's, let's, let's, let's preface this by saying that the coaches and GMs talk on days when there are no workouts. So they're talking and they're mostly giving updates on their team. I'm intrigued to see what happens with John Gruden. And I don't want to read too much into, if you don't know what happened, John Gruden was asked about analytics and data. And big red flag off the top, he openly wondered how to pronounce data, data or data. which I think is a kind of a tomato tomato thing.

You can say data. Yeah, you can say data. Yeah. Data data. You can do it. I don't think it matters. You're fine, John. That's the only part of this that was fine, though.

Okay, so he said, I want to take the football back to 1998. So there's a couple things I want to talk about. So number one, the reporter said I googled your playbook and it was online, which is actually quite common in the NFL. If you Google, especially in, um, you, you Google, especially in, um, you, you know, guys who've been around longer, all it takes is sort of, you know, one guy who was a volunteer in minicamp and, you know, he puts the PDF from 2009 up, okay? You can find playbooks online. Sure. And Gruden seemed sort of nonplussed about this, but he also said, well, we're going to

change the presentation of the offense, but what I know stays the same. What he knows, and John Gruden is a great football mind. He's going to have good people around him. But it, it's, it's, it's, suggests a certain level of comfort in what he did 20 years ago and 10 years ago. And I think the game has changed three or four times since then. I'm hoping that, you know, he suggested that he's going to steal some place from Oklahoma. I hope he does that. I love to see Gruden run a little, some spread concepts. That'd be fantastic.

And so I'm slight, we were talking a couple of weeks ago about kind of whether or not Gruden would update his coaching palette and he seems to be suggesting he's not going to. Having said that, this is the last point I want to make. Bill Belichick can't stop talking about how he's confused by technology.

No one uses analytics more than Bill Belichick. Tom Coughlin didn't... This seems different than that though. Tom Coughlin did an extended bit where he said he did know how to work his cell phone. Specifically his GPS. He didn't trust the lady in the GPS.

My NFL sources have told me My NFL sources have told me that no team, at least a couple of years ago when Kaufflin was coaching the Giants, no team used GPS and practice more. And that includes Chip Kelly, okay, than Tom Kaufman's Giants. So it's possible this was just an elaborate bit. What do you believe, Robert Mays? I don't think it was an elaborate bit. I think it'd be an incredible bit if it was. It would be really well done.

He's really committing to the bit. I'm worried about this. I think that maybe I'm overreacting, but there's part of me that's a bit concerned, just because it's not what you want to hear. We just got done last week talking about this idea that the team is willing to really dig into the information available, willing to kind of derive some pleasure out of finding the next step in football or the ones that are going to succeed and going the opposite direction of that is concerning to me. What I will say about the playbook and the offense and everything else, I think that a lot of coaches use concepts that have been around for a very long time as the basis of what they do. Oh, sure. Like even the best, most forward-thinking coaches, I mean, Kyle Shanahan runs a lot of West Coast offensive principles. There's a lot of the same kind of zone blocking stuff that they've been doing forever in the Shanahan type offenses.

that just really works because of the way they dress it up around it and because he's a very adept play caller. I think McVeigh is the same way. There's a lot of cool stuff, but there's a lot of stuff that's been the foundation of professional football for a very long time. I remember talking to John Harbaugh two or three years ago, and he was saying,

you can close your eyes on some Bill Belichick's plays and open him, and it looks like he's running Bo Schembecker, Woody Hayes plays from the 70s. I mean, I wrote about this. Yeah. But before the Super Bowl, the Patriots offense, while there had been iterations for sure, a lot of the plays have been there forever.

Yeah. I mean, so I think that that may be overstated, but I don't think it's a matter of necessarily the tangible construction of the offense, the X's and O's on the paper, whatever else. It's about mindset. It's about approach. It's about just a willingness to embrace an air of creativity and ingenuity more than it is about trying to remake everything on the fly here. So I think that's my concern is just putting a wall up at the start is not what you want.

It's the opposite of what you want as things currently stand. May I drop a nugget? Sure, buddy. Get a little nugget for you guys. I'm waiting. Recently heard a story from a guy, big analytics guy, told me that there's evidence when you look at the player tracking that there are a number of players. who exert all of their energy,

100% of the allotted energy they should have for a game in pregame warmups. Think about that. That just seems like a terrible use of time. Think about that. And this is not an isolated incident. It's rare, but it's not an isolated incident. Knowing that 60% of the teams, 70% of the teams,

utilize this data, knowing that if a guy is prone to exerting himself, self too much in pregame warmups that other teams will dial it back. And this is just one example, but this is a tangible example. You're going to want to use the data because other people are. And this is a league of little things. Yeah, I guess you call it the aggregation of marginal gains where little things get tiled upon each other and then they become big things. Yes, that's exactly right. And for me, when I look at the data, not one data points going to win you a game.

But if you have hundreds and hundreds of little tiny data points that all make sense and all go in your brain in the right way, if you're a coach or a GM or a position coach, eventually you're going to put that into good use and you're going to win two games over the course of 20 if you're trying to win the Super Bowl. And it's not going to make, it's not going to close a talent gap. but it's going to break some ties between two teams that are very similar.

And here's the thing about those tiny little data points. You have to be looking for them. Yes. And if you aren't approaching this with the mindset that you want to look for them, you're already at a disadvantage. That's my concern with all of this. It was just a weird thing to say. It's just the number one concern people have about the guy is that he's been out of the league

for this long and that the game might have passed him by. and he starts his like forward facing presentation to the league at the combine with I'm going back to what I used to do. The visors of air in 1998. Hey, maybe visors are the new market inefficiency. I'm not arguing with anything Doug Peterson does ever again. Doug's visor seems slightly more modern. In what way? Because I don't know.

I can't tell. I just don't look at the visor that Doug Peterson's wearing. I think 1998. I don't know. I know what I tell you. The thing that I took from today, especially, I mean, there are a few different things. Not one stands out more than the others.

Sure. But just listening to John Lynch and Shanahan talk today, the tone of the conversations around that team could not be more different than they were a year ago. Lynch answered questions about Garapola for four and a half minutes at the start of his presser. Do you think it was awesome? Somebody asked him,

One of the questions, just verbatim, this was the question, do you feel like he won the lottery? Which is fine. That's a reasonable question. He's very happy. I mean, they're, when you listen to those guys talk last year, they sounded like guys that just got six-year contracts, incredibly patient. We're not going to make a move that we don't feel was right in terms of that position for the long term. They knew they could slow play this a bit. Shanahan said today, we wanted our quarterback by year two.

and the fact that they have him now, it changes everything. I mean, they are, I was talking to somebody today, they told me that when the rookie pool is taking into consideration, IR, things like that, they'll have about $55 million in space. They don't have a lot of clear cuts to make. So they'll probably be at about $55 million. It's only four or five teams ahead of them. You know, I think the only team,

I think the Bears will probably be number two when it's all of a sudden done after Cleveland. In cap space? Yes. I think they'll be at 85. So the Bears are going to be up there. The Jets, obviously, you know, the Colts, and the Browns, but the Niners are right there.

I mean, 55 is enough to do a lot. And one of the things I was talking about with people about the Eagles before the Super Bowl was just this idea that when they brought Carson in and when Carson took over as the starter, it changes everything about how you can acquire players, not just receivers, but players on the defensive side of the ball as well. The quarterback just becomes a beacon in free agency. And I feel like both Shanahan and Lynch said that today.

I mean, just the idea that they can go into free agency meetings now and they don't have to answer the question, who's your quarterback? Yeah, I saw that. That answer is given. And the excitement around him and around Groppoa period, it has become like a full-throated roar.

I mean, it's kind of ridiculous, but you can also understand it. Okay. So what I think is interesting about that in particular, is that, I don't know, say this, but all of the teams with a lot of cap space, but the vast majority of them suck, and there isn't a clear path to victory.

Yes. And if you're one of these guys, it's going to sign sort of a bloated contract and you know you're just eating up cap space, you know the type. Wouldn't you rather eat up cap space with the quarterback? Yes. I mean, it changes everything.

I've been in a lot of crappy locker rooms with a lot of bloated contracts, and those guys are just so sad, if you're making a lot of money because one team has $55 million in cap space, you're going to want to go on the team that at least is going to go 500 because they have a quarterback

who can win you games. And I think you cannot overstate how important it is to not only have a lot of cap space, but be able to sell guys and have a clear path to victory. Because if you sign for the Jets right now, man, you know what's coming.

Yeah. You know what's coming. what's coming. Or the bears. As much as I love Mr. Biscuit, Mitch Trubisky, I don't see a lot of hope in 2018, even 2019. Oh, I disagree with that.

We can get into that. Here we go. This is a conversation for later. But, I mean, I think that with the cutting Glenn in, with moving on from Sid and all the cuts they've made, they can really just remake the team. Sure. Oh, yeah.

And it's, we'll see what they choose to do. I mean, every avenue is kind of on the table. I've talked about it with a few bears guys this week, just about, you know, the Tetris kind of blocks can fall however you want them to. If it's Nelson at 8, if it's a receiver and free agency, if it's, you know,

there's so many different ways they can go now because of the money. But with, and I totally agree with you on that. And here's a question for you. And I, this is something I was thinking about earlier today. And it was kind of crazy that it came into my mind, but I do think it's a reasonable question.

Would you rather sign right now? Okay. Would you rather play with Andrew Luck or Jimmy Garoppel? Jimmy Garoppel. Isn't that insane that you just like, instantly, that's the answer, and it's probably the right answer. I mean, there's no way to know about luck at this point, but luck used to be that for the Colts, right? That's what they hoped to would be. I don't mean, I'm not saying anything

that we don't already know. What are the chances luck just doesn't play football again? I'd ask somebody that this morning. It's a non-zero chance. Yes. I'm pretty sure Jimmy Garoppolo is starting in September of 2018. Yep. And so even like, when you look at the cult and you look at Andrew Luck and just the fact that he's supposed to be that alluring factor for them, it's just not the same. So there's nobody really at the top of that list that has a selling point in the way that the 49ers do. Without a doubt, Andrew Luck, I love Andrew Luck. By the way, Andrew Luck can't stop, you know, taking hits. He's a physical guy. His toughness is a core part of who he is. What does Andrew Luck play like when he gets back? It's a great question. He loves

taking hits. I've talked to him about this. He loved, you know, he's famously said this, I'm sure you've heard it. He likes taking a hit early in the game. Yep. Because he loves to just get the ball rolling, because I'm going to be hit all day long. Our man can't stay healthy right now. What happens when he takes his first hit? Is he going to want to take another hit like he did a couple years ago? I mean, I love, we're talking about one of the smartest athletes around. We're talking about ever. Ever. We're talking about a three-time ringer NFL show co-host with me. And I just, at some point, I just worry about his style of play when he gets back because he's human. Yeah.

And I worry about, at this point, I love his ability as a passer. I love all of that stuff. I just am curious what he looks like if he can play in September 2018. By the way, Frank Reich and all this guy, they said, oh, yeah, he'll be back. I can't, I cannot believe any Andrew Luck injury news, right? No. Until he plays football, there's really no reason to put any stock in it. It's like, well, remember like the Cubs pitchers that kept getting hurt?

Yes, I do. It was just like, Mark Pryor's close. Yeah, he was always close. And then his calf exploded. Yeah, exactly. It's like, it actually is more analogous to like last two years, Tiger Woods. Oh, God. That's even sadder. Well, no, I'm not comparing

the two athletes. I'm just saying like, the injury updates. Yes. And also just the going away of a supposed transcendent player. I don't, I think Andrew Luck, I want to be clear on something. I think Andrew Luck will be back and I think it will again be a good NFL quarterback.

I just don't, I am not ready to accept anything on its face about Andrew Luck. Totally fair. The other thing that I thought was interesting today is just listening to Mike Zimmer talking about the quarterbacks of Minnesota. Yeah.

And he really kind of disregarded every single quarterback option for this offseason because he, was very, Mike Zimmer doesn't give fuck, first of all. He will just say whatever he wants. He sure doesn't. He essentially just tore down

all three of his guys from this year. It's like, well, we don't know if Teddy's going to be the same guy. I know it anymore. We don't know if Case Keatom is just the product of a very good team. We don't know if San Braver can stay healthy. So, and then, he didn't mention Kirk Couss by name, obviously, but seemingly alluding to Kirk Cousins,

the idea that we've been good. We've won 40 games in four years because it hasn't been about one guy. You don't want to pay one guy too much at the expense of everyone else. So essentially the four... Just to be clear, they paid, they had like nine quarterbacks on, on, they, those, those added up. Yes. So it's not like they had like this Russell Wilson making less than a long snapper thing like

Seattle had a couple years ago. They had Bradford, Bridgewater and Keenham under contract. Yes. They had the equivalent of a mega contract among those three guys. Totally fair. But I just thought that, you know, it just. seems like every single thing is on the table. And I, the cousin stuff is not going to go away. I think it's only going to get louder here over the next couple weeks because it doesn't

feel like they're comfortable with any of the options. I think they know what Keenum, why he was good this year. And we've talked about this before. It's about slowly removing the pieces of the infrastructure. And as you take one of the Django blocks out and then another, Shermer's gone now. You know, just one of those things that it's really hard to replicate the circumstances under which quarterbacks are successful when you lose pieces. And if they can't do that, do you really want to bring Case Keenum back on a monster contract? You also don't know who's responsible for what and nor do the teams. I mean, we might find out in eight months that Pat Schumer was exactly what made the Vikings go.

Or we might find out that he had nothing to do with it in the Giants start 0-and-5, right? I mean, I think teams never know, players never know, coaches never know. And so, you know, that's part of the sort of the great unknown. Apparently, Kyle Shanahan was the most valuable coordinator on the planet. This is another interesting that popped up today that I thought I took notice of is that at a dinner, at a breakfast with local media this morning, Mike Zimmer talked about how he blocked his coordinator or his quarterback's coach from interviewing for the Giants office coordinator job. And we don't really think about that when it comes to sustained success in the NFL, the fact that when you're good, eventually your guys are going to go. And replacing them is difficult. It's really hard to do.

And Shanhan's the best example, obviously. When you lose a coordinator like that, it can change the entire complexion of that side of the ball. And it's just something that I never really thought about before. But it's like, well, yeah, I can understand why you'd want to keep his coaches. Like, when you lose all the guys that made you good, it's hard to be good. There's also just the argument that Pat Schumer is going to be the offensive coordinator of the giant, so it's not even really a promotion. Yes. Sure.

But it's in title matters. Sure. Title matters. I mean, the reason the NFL put in the rules were basically, unless the only way you can force your employer to let you interview is if it's a head coaching job. The reason they put that in place was because there are so many gray areas about titles and whatever. I mean, because that was the, that's pretty much, you know, there were, there were years where it just became a farce because of that stuff. And I understand why offensive coordinator is a sought after title, but when you're under Pat Shermer, is it just a quarterback's coach job? Well, we've talked about this before with regards to a lot of the coordinators that are being hired that were hired this year.

I mean, Madela Fleur has never called plays before. He will call plays in Tennessee as the offensive coordinator. Yeah. Matt Nagy was not the full-time play caller in Kansas City. when you're around, Frank Wright didn't call plays, and he's not the head coach. Doug Peterson didn't call plays. So it's just one of those things where-

One year of plays or having, being the offensive coordinator in title does give you more opportunities. It is a better job, even if you're not the one calling plays, than being a quarterback's coach. I mean, that's not a super lateral move because you're going to get more looks,

even if you didn't call plays. That's just how it works. Totally agree with you. Robert, real quick, you revealed last night at dinner, you're afraid of the sea. I fear the sea. I wanted to just circle back,

on that. Why are you afraid of the ocean? Because you don't know what's in there. When you get, when the water is murky, you don't understand what's below you. I will snorkel in clear water, but I will not go into dark water because you, who the hell knows? How are we on lakes? I don't love lakes, but I feel better about them than the sea. You would have had a tough time in Florida. Yeah, I don't don't go in the ocean. Well, no, it's also just gators everywhere in the lakes. Yeah. Oh, yes. Yeah. I wouldn't go in the lakes there. Absolutely not. No lakes. No, no Florida lakes. Just stay away from their nests.

I don't know what a gator nest looks like. They're not going to attack you unless you mess with the eggs. Here's the thing. I don't need to go in water. Not a big beach guy anyway. If you're chased by an alligator, you zigzag. Don't they run like 40 miles an hour? You zigzag.

They can't. They can't go out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They'd be awesome with the bench press.

Yeah. they'd be terrible at some of the other events. Terrible at the three code. Just even measurements. The arms, the wingspan is terrible. Every alligator would get transitioned to guard when he was coming into the NFL.

No tackles for alligators. The other than they teach you in Florida is if you're being chased by a bear, people sometimes think it's good to try to like run up a tree or something. No, the bears climb. That's their,

I see the office. That's their domain. Yeah. You don't want to, that's their home turf. Yeah, you don't get in a tree climbing contest. Is it a bear?

Is it a play dead thing really? Is that what you're close to do? I didn't get that grade of a bear education. Yeah, me neither. That's a lot of bears where I'm from. A lot of bears in Florida. Nope. Not a lot of bears in the suburbs of Chicago.

Sharks should punch in the nose. Did you know that? Yeah. Yeah. Punch, yeah. I don't have to deal with sharks though because I don't go in the sea. I have a feeling that all of these things are wrong. Like, I have a feeling that they're just all complete myths.

If you actually did some animal safety. Yeah. Observations or some training. I haven't really get tweets from like zoologists who are like all the things you said were wrong. What animal do you fear most? A tiger? Really?

Yeah. I'm not winning a fight with the tiger. That's a very practical answer. I love tigers just in terms of their majesty, so I wouldn't say that. But I understand your fear. What's yours? Snakes. I have a phobia of snakes. I have a phobia of snakes.

Like if I saw a snake outside, I would like go inside and I come back outside. When I was in Florida a couple months ago, I left my sneakers out because it was raining. No. Don't tell me. Snake in the shoe? Yeah. What kind?

Oh, just a garden snake. Well, that's okay. Those are not, I'm not that afraid of. It wasn't a king cobra. Rattlesnakes I'm most afraid of. I'm terrified of rattlesnics. Why you left Los Angeles? There aren't that many rattlesnakes in Los Angeles.

You don't golf enough. All right. Have you seen a rattlesnake on the golf course in L.A.? Sure. Oh, fuck. That, like, seriously gives me chills. Orange County. Oh, my God.

Nope. All right. Let's wrap it up. Looking forward to the weekend. Saturday, the quarterback's throw. Sam Darnel will not be throwing. Sam Darnel will not be throwing. I don't really care about the quarterbacks throwing.

They just a huge accent. The throwing is not what matters to me. I'm excited to see the quarterbacks. I'm excited to hear the quarterbacks talk tomorrow. That's always one of my favorite parts of the combine. Baker talks at 2 o'clock. I mean, to be right at the beginning of things. So that's something that I'll look forward to.

It's just hearing those guys for the first time. I am much like the NFL coaches in this regard is that I have not watched quarterbacks really sure i've not dug into them i'm i care more about free agency now than i care about the draft so i'm a little bit behind here's one of the reasons i don't care about the quarterbacks throwing andy reed said this who all someone else said it today too i'm very prepared someone else now and someone else oh it was tom tulesco okay they both said the the advent of the spread offense and just the new offenses in general at the college level one of the things it does is for the first time in a lot and in probably the history

of college football, this era means we see thousands of college passes. Yeah, I heard of Tosco says. And that wasn't always the case. No. I mean, college offenses are pretty conservative, relatively speaking, certainly in, you know, 50, 60, 70s, and even the 80s, 90s, I mean, there was a run first game. Even in the early 2000s, you, there were college games where they throw 18 passes. But think about so how many yards do you think Matt Liner threw four in his last?

year at USC. It wasn't like five thousand. Yeah, well, I mean, you had, Reggie Bush and Lendell White. Sure, but I'm just saying like, no, I get, no, but I'm just saying, but it coincides with the era of the dominant college football running back. Correct. Yeah. And so I guess my point is that because we've seen thousands upon thousands of these throws from these guys, you know, it doesn't really matter. I guess not thousands. Thousands when you, when you, when you, when you, What I mean by thousands is you add together the top prospects. You have a lot of tape.

The year that Matt Leonard won the Heisman trophy. You don't need 15 throws to some Rando in Indianapolis. No, 100%. I put no stock in whatsoever. The year he won the Heisman trophy, he threw for 3,322 yards. That's great stuff. I mean, it's just, we're not that far removed. Lamar Jackson threw that against UCF.

Exactly. I mean, the game has changed rapidly. And I totally agree. I mean, we've seen these guys throw enough. If you work out a quarterback, you're going to see the type of throws you want them to make. I mean,

it really does not matter. So it's more to me about just seeing them for the first time, you know, hearing them talk. I mean, you don't glean much from that, but I always enjoy it for the first time. Well,

anything else? That's it, buddy. We will be back next week. Indianapolis, good host city. Yeah, I always enjoy coming here. We're going to go get some shrimp content

and stay a little warm. in the 86. Yeah, and it was apparently a disaster. Yeah. I mean, I think that NFL types, when you get them together, will have beers no matter what the city. So if you put them in a drinking city, they will drink more.

Yes. I think that got out of hand very quickly. I'm not sure that would end well for anyone. Tell you what, huge red flag here is that in Indianapolis, is that convention center is massive, long hallways. Very long hallways. So if you see someone you know, You have to do the weird thing where you see them.

So true. And then you do like two minutes of like, I don't see you on my phone. I'm doing it. And then you do that. Oh, hey. Yeah.

Like two minutes later. I, my combined problem is her as human to human interaction is that I see a lot of people who I should know and don't. There's a lot of people I have met before whose names I do not remember. And I always feel really bad about that. Oh. See,

I have the same problem except I don't feel bad. There you go. All right. We will be back next week to really start taking into free agency. I mean, we're here. It's going to be here before we know it. So, yeah, I'm fired up. Let's do it.

Quarterbacks galore, AJ McCarron. Yeah, the quarterback conversation is the biggest one. I just, in a weird way, just contextless, just yelled at AJ McCarran. His addition just underscores just how many choices these teams have. And it's not a typical like Mike Glennon style quarterback free agent year. Thanks, buddy. There are a lot of ways these teams can go. There's a lot of ways this can shake out.

It's fascinating. I can't remember a class like it. And we will chat about that next week and a bunch of other stuff. As always, thank you for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer podcast network.