The Ringer NFL Show - Sorting Through the Playoff Picture, Joe Burrow’s Future, and Jameis Winston | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: December 30, 2019

The NFC playoff picture (02:00), the Patriots drop one to the Dolphins (25:45), Joe Burrow in the NFL (43:30), and Jameis Winston caps off a historic season (51:45). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When you need a game plan for protection, state farm agents are here to help. With personalized service, agents are available to talk in person, over text, and through the State Farm app. So go with the one with coverage and agents you can count on. Find an agent in your neighborhood today. State Farm. Talk to an agent today. Welcome to the Ringer NFL show. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Cawley, how you do, buddy? I just witnessed one of the most completely, in the context of what it was, most completely ridiculous.

last few minutes of a football game I've seen in a long time. In the context of the division being on the line, the buy being on the line for the San Francisco 49ers, like for that game to come down to that situation was perfect. It was so funny because

you're sitting there and it's like, all right, well, the Niners have this and then the Seahawks start driving and then they get down to like the two yard line. It's like, oh, this is over. Because there was a moment where it's like, all right, now it's fourth down. Like the Niners did it. They got the stop. and then the Seahawks get the first down.

It's like, without the Seahawks are going to win this game. And then they don't win the game. It was just a level, as you have tweeted many times, the Seahawks cannot play a normal football game. And this was a perfect example of that. I was thinking about that a little bit today when watching the game.

And I was thinking that it's not just true from a game by game basis. It's also true from a play by play basis. It really is. The Seahawks don't do normal play. like it's always Russell Wilson drops back the pocket is a good example like the pocket will collapse he'll just see a hole he'll sprint

straightforward and then he'll like do a jump pass or something and like that's you kind of see that more than than you like entire franchises have seasons where they don't do a play like that and Russell Wilson will do like

three per drive it's just nothing happens normally in Seattle I don't I mean, there's a lot of reasons for that, but it was, uh, this is, this is just proof that, that there will never be a normal thing ever again in the history of the Seahawks. So it's, we, we say this as a joke, but I actually do want to kind of break down that idea. Because their point differential, I believe coming into the game was like plus 12. Yeah, it was negative, it was negative one, uh, midway through the game.

So if that team had gotten, you know, the one the division, whatever, with the C-12, with the that it's been in the NFC, it'd be kind of like, really, like this team is going to get the buy. And I think that we've had this. They wouldn't have gotten the buy. They wouldn't have gotten the buy. Well, they would have won the division.

So it would have been, you know, Green Bay and New Orleans. Yes. But it's, we've, I think that, you know, we've said this is a joke, but I do think it's something that's worth evaluating. Because they've won all these close games.

And as we've talked to, about the Lamar Jackson Russell Wilson thing over the course of the season and how the Seahawks don't put Russell Wilson in the best possible situation. I think that's an extension of this because they don't. This team has gotten

by on the skin of their teeth in a lot of very close games. I think they're dangerous, but I don't know how good they are. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, I understand what you mean. And I understand that the point differential is important

and that is, I was actually looking at that this week and, you know, there are not a whole lot of teams that didn't have a good point differential that had success in the playoffs, deeper in the playoffs in the last four or five, six years. You know, obviously there's going to be exceptions. The Denver Super Bowl team

that won the second Peyton Manning Super Bowl, that was, they didn't have an elite point differential. There are some exceptions, but typically... But they had an elite defense though. No, no, of course. Of course. And the Seahawks That was a little bit different. That was a little bit different. And, but, you know, it was, if you play the, the, the, the Panthers Broncos game 10 times, I think the Panthers probably win eight of those. Anyway, but let's, let's, let's at least five. I think that's fair. I think it's like, at least, I don't know. Let's not get into that. But let's not relitigate the 2015 Super Bowl.

No, you don't spend the whole pod doing that after week 17. But when you when you have somebody like Russell Wilson, things happen. I know that most things are explained by statistics and point differential and analytics. And certainly we believe in all of those things. But Russell Wilson makes things happen. Russell Wilson rises above his scheme. He rises above oftentimes the players around him despite having more talent than the last couple of years this year. But, you know, I just think that there's there's a.

case to be made that Russell Wilson can can make things that shouldn't happen happen. And that's from play to play. It's from game to game. And it's from season to season. So I would not, despite everything, I would not have been shocked how they won this game. Because by the way, they were one yard away from it or half a yard at one point. They were an incredible stop away. It was, that was just an awesome game.

It was an awesome performance to everybody. I wish there was a way for both of these teams to get a home playoff game. I tend to agree with you. But all right, so if we're looking at the NFC playoff picture, the playoff picture in general, if you were playing in the, let's say the divisional round, because one of these teams is going to get,

the Niners got the buy. Would you rather face the 49ers of the Seahawks? I'd rather face the Seahawks. I think so too. Are we talking about like, I mean, obviously you'd face them on the road and all that stuff. I mean, the problem with the 49ers.

I know. Neutral field. I'm just saying kind of in a vacuum. In the outback bowl. I would rather face I'd rather face the Seattle Seahawks I think dude I think the Niners are really freaking good

I think the Niners are going to Super Bowl So I think the Niners are really good too And I think that The reason I believe in the Niners Has shifted over the course of the season Because there was a point You know halfway through the year And there have been a lot of smart people

Who have done studies on this In the sense that you know Defense and defensive statistics are often based on the offenses you face. You know, the quarterbacks you face, everything else. I think that's proven out over the course of the last few years. And over the first half the season, the Niners played shitty defenses and their defense looked great.

And then over the second half of the season, they've won all these high-scoring games. And that's why I think they're so dangerous in the sense that they've been able to kind of evolve into a different sort of team by the end of the year. Like, I think the scariest part about the night, right now is the fact that they have Kyle Shanahan and a lot of really interesting skill position players in offense. Is that wrong? No, not at all. I mean, but we hope that was,

it's funny because that was probably the preseason conventional wisdom. That's exactly. That's exactly right. Kyle Shanahan, it's, you know, the 49ers are a flat circle. And so they return to we love Kyle Shanahan, the scheme lord. And that all makes sense. And they still have talent on defense. It's just they need to get healthy on the defensive line to be as good as they could possibly be. As someone like D. Ford has to come back. They obviously invested significantly in that. And so I think that there are this team that we saw tonight can get better. Once the pass rush gets healthy, you know, I don't know if to deal with Jimmy Ward, but, you know, they've had, they've been really banged up on on defense.

D. Ford. I mean, yeah, there are a lot of guys that need back for sure. Yeah. But I think this team is currently constructed can can win the NFC. They don't, I don't. I mean, not this is not kind of the Houston Texans type thing where it's wow they really have to get JJ Watt back or whatever in order for them to be in a contender I mean this is the number one seed in the in the NFC and I think that they are they are I don't know I mean I they're the best team in the NFC there's a reason of the number one they beat the saints in New Orleans I this is a kind of classic at this is kind of a classic kind of balanced football team that we actually in an era you and I have talked about this million times in an era where if you have one elite unit,

you can compete in this league. There are some balanced teams. All right. So you say they're the best team in the NFC. They have a very good chance to win the NFC. If you had to put some fake money down right now on an NFC team, who would you bet on? The 49ers. Do you think they're the best team in the NFC as currently constructed in this moment?

are you I've I'm answered I've answered this question three times yeah I guess yes yes oh see I don't okay are you think it's new Orleans Saints I think it's the new Orleans Saints okay so but here's a there's a there's a chicken and egg thing here right like we're not playing the Outback Bowl right we're playing I think New Orleans can go to San Francisco and win yeah but New Orleans has to play an extra game now they don't get the rest they don't get I I know I know what the road is tougher. I know. Right.

And I think that there's an amazing, you know, one of the lessons of the Eagles in a weird way was how significantly they changed what they did during the buy week. Remember that with John D. Filippo and Frank Reich and Doug Pearson and all these guys. We heard so much about it before they started their run. They essentially treated it like a second training camp. They installed all this stuff. And nobody's changing quarterbacks here. So it's not that deep. But what I am saying is that you can take that week off and you can do a lot of different stuff with it.

And I think that that's important. And I think that that's not only the health part of it, but just resetting the batteries a little bit are important. And then again, I can't do, I can't separate. I think that the Sunday Night Football had the stat about the last six Super Bowls had teams with the buy. Well, I mean, also the last six Super Bowls had really good teams. So that's what I want to talk about. Yeah, you cannot separate the talent that gets a buy from the fact they had to buy. If the Patriots or the 2015 Carolina Panthers had to take the sixth seed and had to play their games on the road, they'd still probably make the Super Bowl.

Like that's sort of how this works is the good teams make the Super Bowl and good teams happen to get the buy. So it's hard for me to divorce those two things. Having said that, I do think the fact that the Saints will go into San Francisco if they get that far is important. We've had that discussion on the show before about how, you know, typically the teams with the one or two seed have gone to the Super Bowl, but those are, it's because they're the best teams. And the Saints, like, so let's just play it out, right? So they're the three seed in the NFC. So if they beat the six seed who are going to be the Vikings, which is not an easy game, even though the Vikings aren't playing particularly well, they will likely go to Green. Bay. Who would you pick in that game? It's absolutely the Saints right now, right? It is absolutely

the Saints right now. So if they beat Green Bay in Green Bay, then they go to San Francisco. And the Niners obviously have the advantage of playing at home. But I do think a lot of the teams with the buy, the teams with the number one seed have gone to the Super Bowl is those are the best teams. And I just think the NFC is so stacked right now at the top that even if the Saints have the three seed. As I look at these teams and I love the Niners, we both do. But I still think that at this moment, with Breeze coming back, being fresh and just the level of talent they have top to bottom, I think they're the most dangerous team no matter where they have to play. I understand that. I think that, you know, listen, let's let's not do a Drew Bree's outdoors discussion here.

But I mean, I doesn't matter where he's fucking playing right now. I think the guys just put no points. The Drew Breeze is a really good quarterback, and I think that if they had the one seat, I'd probably pick them to make the Super Bowl, just because I think that they are pretty much unbeatable in the dome unless Nickelle Robby Coleman assaults a wide receiver. I'm jealous that you were at that game last year.

As I think back on like the way the league played out, I kind of wish I had been there, even though the AFC championship game last year was amazing. It was very strange. It was a very strange game to be at, because everything, as you probably know, if you go to a big Saints game, is the energy before the game is incredible.

It's crazy. And walking around the blocks around the stadium, it's unlike anything in football. And when I got out of the game, which obviously, I don't know, 90 minutes, two hours after the final whistle, everything I cleared out,

everything. And I remember there was, I was really hungry and it was Jimmy Johns, maybe four or five blocks down the street. And I went in and, got a sandwich and there was just nobody in there. And this is like, I've seen, I, I kind of did that weird like, like, end of la la land type thing, spoiler art, where you're like, wow, what would this be like? What would this street be like if the Saints had won that game?

Like, you're not, especially in a city like that. You're not even seeing. That's what I'm talking about. You're not even seeing. You're like rolling in your head, like, wow, like this street would be completely filled with people. I would not be at the Jimmy Johns. I would be elsewhere. Like it was, I would probably not even have gone out, you know, been able to walk down the street. Like it would have been crazy. But, well, the stadium is not far from like where things are very hectic late at night in New Orleans. It's like, it's not that far from craziness. Right.

And what I'm saying is that there was no one on the street, even in the crazy parts where, where, you know, things are going 24-7, there was, everyone was just like, you know what, we're done. We're going to be done now. We're done. I was watching that game with, I'm trying to think of who was all. there. It was me. I think Jeff Darlington,

Greg Bishop, maybe from Sports Illustrated. We were all because in Kansas City they have like a really long, like a big area. Yeah, yeah. The back of where everyone sits in the press box and even watching it was strange. But anyway, I so, okay, I think we're on the same

page in terms of who are the best teams in the NFC. So let's have a very brief Seahawks discussion before we move on here. So I think both of us believe that Russell Wilson was probably the second most valuable player in the NFL this year. And that the Seahawks really relied on him to be where they were. The Seahawks finished 11 and 5. They had a very nice season, but they played a lot of one-score games. They had a lot of

things go their way. Maybe the Seahawks make the Super Bowl. I don't think they do. But let's say they lose in the divisional round, whatever. How do you feel about where the Seahawks franchise sits right now. Oh, are you trying to get yourself in trouble again? I'm really not. I'm really not. I'm going to make you do it in order to not get myself the next game of Thanos video when they win Super Bowl. I've been extremely consistent on this.

Russell Wilson is good enough to make your franchise better full stop. Do they have a nice young floor? But should the franchise be better? That is my question to you. Well, okay. So you look at it right now. They have guys like D.K. Maccalfe, who they hit on. they still have a defensive core

that I think is pretty good. They still have Bobby Wagner. They still have, you know, KJ Wright was making plays tonight. I think they've still got... Shaquille Griffin's a really nice player. Shishka, Griffin. Yeah, there are pieces there.

Should they be better as a franchise? Shouldn't everybody be better as a franchise? I mean, shouldn't the Patriot kind of lost to the Dolphins today? If you have Russell, wouldn't you be better? Shouldn't you be... Shouldn't, if you have a second best player in the league,

shouldn't you have a team that can be the best team in the NFC and not somebody that has to scrape by? That's my question too. I mean, I think they're in a different cycle. I mean, part of why you made the, part of the mistake that, that you made before this season

was you thought that the down cycle of the Seahawks could, was really down instead of just a little bit down, right? Yes. Right. Really down in the sense that they would go eight and eight. Yeah. Okay. And so, and so I think that,

the floor on the Ciox is much better than, I'm more optimistic on what the floor of the Ciox is than you are, because I think Russell Wilson is really good. I think the floor is very high. I'm talking about the ceiling. That's what that's, that's my question here. Right. Right.

Yeah. I mean, I think that they, I think that, you know, like the Houston Texans, who I'm watching highlights of right now, I think that they probably rely a little too much on the, the heroics of their quarterback.

The Texans are obviously extremely different scenario. But I think could they get in two years an offensive head coach who lights it up and makes us wonder what we're doing the last four or five years of Pete Carroll, possibly. But I do know that Pete Carroll. I think for all the stick he gets, he's a really good football coach. And I think that there's the Seahawks have for all of the strange games and the strange plays and Brian Schottenheimer thing, they could be significantly worse. Look at freaking Dallas.

I think you're right. And Dallas is a really good comparison because I, the Pete Carroll offensive head coach thing is kind of where I'm going with this. And I think that their floor is extremely high. And I think that what John Schneider does and that moves he's been able to make over the last five, six, ten years, whatever are remarkable. I think it's an incredibly well-run franchise. I just wonder if there is something there that's untapped based on how they're currently constructed. That's it. It's not an indictment of who they are, what they do, all of that stuff.

Because I do think that it absolutely could be a lot worse. I just look at what Russell Wilson has been this year. And I look at all the cap space they have next year, the fact that next year they're probably not going to be in that downturn when they're rebuilding a little bit. And I just wonder what they want to be and who the best people are to bring them there. That's it.

How many games would the Seahawks win with Sean McVeigh? I don't know if he's the right guy to answer that question. I mean, I, who's the right guy? Who's the right guy in this scenario? Maybe it is Sean McVeigh. Maybe like a good,

a good coach who has the answer. I kind of think the answer is 12 or 13 games. But do they win 12 or 13 games in the way they did this year? Or do they win 12 or 13 games in a more convincing way? Yes, it does that. Okay. I mean, I think point differential does matter.

I think point differential on how you win games does matter. Okay. I know what you're saying, but I'm just, I think that Pete Carroll winning a bunch of games for a long time. I think there's some earned credit there. I 100% agree with you. Again, this is not me judging the Seahawks or trying to say they're not good or whatever. It's really just kind of a thought experiment about what does this team want to be and how do they get where they want to go? And I just, I don't know if the question is answerable right now, but I think the question is, is Pete Carroll, the guy to bring them there is this style.

the style they need to play to get there. And I don't know the answer to that question. That's it. Man, I got a lot of friends who live in England, right? And they used to talk about, not a lot, like three,

but we talk a lot. No, we talk a lot. And so it seems like more, right? They're all big soccer fans. And they used to talk about, one of them is a huge Arsenal fan.

And he's talking about this guy, Arson Vanger, right? And everybody, I know who Arson Vanger is. He was the coach. Don't talk down to me. He was,

I'm talking to the, I'm talking to the listener who might not know. He, was the coach for like 20 years of Arsenal and it's it became in the same way like Bobby Bowden was like this of Florida State. There's a lot of people where they build the team into something and then everyone forgets that they were the one who were responsible. Actually Marvin Lewis was a little bit like this. Marvin Lewis is exactly what I was going to bring up. So he that he takes a job from either bad to good or good to great or great to elite, whatever it is. And then no one

remembers that it's really easy to screw everything up. It's really, really easy to screw everything up. And it's like, okay, maybe Pete Carroll in the long run has underachieved. But you know what? Oh, I don't think that's true. There's a lot of, no, but that might be the argument you're making. What I'm saying is that. I think in the last couple years, the league has changed. Okay. Okay. That's all I'm saying. I don't think he's underachieved the long term at all. Fine. But the league has changed. But there's, you end up somehow with Zach Taylor or you end up with, with accidentally hiring it's a really good points i mean like there's there's a lot of

could there is there a better coach for the seattle seawks than p. Carroll sure bill bellichick's probably a better coach and there's probably five or six but this is not the situation like we talked about in dallas where like 15 people could win 13 games of them and instead jason garrett can't score any points and then doesn't know what he's doing well i'm sorry i let me rephrase that he's scoring a ton of points, and they have a great point differential, and they suck. They are one of the first teams in history, I think, to have a over 100 point differential,

and they suck. Before the season started, there are two teams that I kind of put in the same category when I thought about the trajectory and the lifespan of the franchise. And they were the Baltimore Ravens and the Seattle Seahawks because you had coaches that had been there for a long time, a GM struck. at the very least that had been there for a long time. And they were teams that were reinventing themselves with those guys still at the top.

And with the Ravens and John Harbaugh and Eric DeCosta, whatever, the power structure involved, that was a franchise that was willing to reinvent itself in an aggressive way. John Harbaugh was willing to sit back and say, let's do something totally different. I don't think even with Pete Carroll as the head coach, I don't think that is ever on the table for the Seahawks. I guess that's what I'm saying.

Because I think to have the same guy for a long time and to have that floor that we're talking about, I think you need to be willing to reinvent yourself and try ambitious, aggressive things within that structure. And I just don't know if Pete Carroll is the person to do it. Yeah, I mean, I understand what you're saying, but I do think that part of the, you know, Remember, the part of the Ravens overall is actually getting a new quarterback, and it's a little bit of a different situation. But I understand. Did you see a new quarterback, though?

No, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying that that was the huge shift. They went from Joe freaking Flacco, who threw short of the sticks and short of where he needed to on first, second, and third down at a historic rate, at a historic freaking rate. And they went from that to Lamar Jackson, who scores every time he touches the football. So listen, I don't know. The Seahawks are about to play in the playoffs. They were a half yard away from winning the division and playing a home playoff game.

And I think that's the problem. I think it's kind of weird we're doing a referendum. I do want to say, listen, this is from Bobby Belt. Since 1990, there are 163 NFL teams that have finished the season with a point differential of 100 or greater. The Cowboys are the only one of those 163 teams to finish with a 500 or worse record. congratulations Jason Garrett. You get a no job. I'm very interested to see what happens with Jason Garrett this year.

And again, I'm not trying to do a referendum on the Seahawks as a team. I think they're really good. I think they're really scary. It's more to me about shouldn't they be something different than they are. And maybe they go to the freaking Super Bowl and I look silly. I think that's on the table. I just look at what Russell Wilson is and I look at what John Schneider has done. and I think, what would this be if it were a little bit different?

That's it. I'm not trying to, like, bury the Seahawks here. I'm really not. I just, it's, that's kind of how I'm thinking about it right now, is that this is a team that's going to get the five seed in the NFC. It's going to be a very hard road. They're likely not going to win a championship. And I just wonder what a couple tweaks would do to what that franchise is with some of the people in

charge and the guy playing quarterback. I think there's a lot more. franchises we could have been complaining about tonight. Like the Browns or the Cowboys. I think that those don't matter anymore. I think that the Seahawks in the very near term are going to be fine. And I think that they were half yard away

from this being a very different conversation. They're going to go into Philly and basically just due to injury. I don't think that Philly has just Burnett, this guy Burnett who they sign on Christmas Eve. I mean, this is, they're down to bare bones.

man in Philly. I don't know half the players on the Eagles at this point. I also don't know half the players in the Seahawks. It's a good thing. They signed Marshall. I know Marshall Run back. Yeah, which is nice. All right.

Do you want to start with those teams we should be bearing? Do you want to start with Stockdown? I feel like that way. I think we should start with stock down. Since since we are, we inexplicably gave the entire Seahawks franchise to stock down. Let's get to some real stock down. I was not doing that.

I don't want it to come off that way. I really don't. Feuding with the, you get in one cable Thanos video and all of a sudden you're feuding with the entire. Now, let's say you're feuding with John Schneider and Pete Carroll. I'm not feeding with John Schneider whatsoever. John Schneider and I are a good terms, even though he doesn't know who I am.

But all right, what stocked out do you want to start with? Can I tell you something? John Schneider is such a personable guy that I don't know. Every time I see him, he is so nice to me that I think he knows who I am, but I guarantee you he doesn't. I don't think I've ever had a conversation with him before. Oh, no. I've had, I've had maybe four or five. And every time he's like, what's up, man? Great to see. And I'm just like, this is awesome. Me and Johnny Schneider are best friends. I guarantee you. He does not know who I am. I guarantee it. All right. Do you want to start with the Patriots? All right. So I do want to be careful here. Because as much as, you know, the cable Thanos thing was, it wasn't a great look for me. the stakes of it are still relative. We're still going with the Seahawks.

But I've said the stakes are still relatively low. Okay. If we bury the Patriots right now, I don't know how that's going to go for either of us. So where are we at? Because they're going to win the Super Bowl. So someone sent me a tweet. Where are we out with the Patriots?

Someone sent me a tweet earlier today that it was like, can't wait to hear Clark explain why we can't write the Patriots off. Like really sarcastically. It's like, well, you can't write a. off because they make or win the Super Bowl basically every year. And until they're eliminated, that's sort of what they do. So this is my question to you. At this point, losing the buy when it was on the line and with the way the offense has

played and with how hard it is to rely on defense to win championships in 2019, do you think that they are a significant step down? from the other teams in the AFC. Do you think this is the year where they do not make the conference championship game? Okay. So this is something that people circled a long time ago, which is you want the one seat in the AFC because you don't want to have to play Kansas City and or Baltimore. You don't have to play those teams in the,

if you're the Patriots, you don't have to play those teams in the original round, right? The Patriots go from nailed on. we, you know, going straight to the one seed kind of thing in September and October to the three seed. And I don't think going on the road is necessarily a problem. I think they won in Kansas City last year. I think it's the teams you're playing against. I think it's going to be really freaking hard to play in Kansas City and then in Baltimore and run through that gauntlet.

Tennessee's no slouch. I just think they're probably not going to lose two games in a row at home. And I also just think that Belichick can handle this. Sunday was a supremely weird game. I think they beat Tennessee, and if I had to guess, if I had to guess, they will probably lose to Kansas City, and I regret saying that out loud. If they lose to the Titans, like 2717 on Saturday,

it wouldn't shock you, right? It would not shock me. I don't think that's going to happen, however. I don't think it's going to happen either, But a couple of things. This is anecdotal. But think about how they've played against Belichick, former Belichick assistants in the last couple seasons. They got blown out by Tennessee last year.

They lost the Lions last season. I think that those guys who have a sense of that team have coached well against them. And now you have Mike Frable who they did it last year coming in. I think that Tennessee team is good. I think that Tennessee team knows what it is in a lot of ways. and I think that's going to be a really close game, even if the Patriots win it. That is not a walkover game with Tennessee winning.

If Pittsburgh had been in there, I think it's a different conversation. But I think that Tennessee team is dangerous, even at home for New England. I really do. Yeah, I just think about the elite guys on that offense, the Tennessee offense. You have AJ Brown.

I mean, Derek Henry, how much money would you pay? So, Derek Henry's running straight towards you. and someone stops time and says you don't have to get hit by Derek Henry, but you have to give me money. What's your price point there? So I tweeted this when I did my all pro team. I was going back and watching tape of all the defensive linemen. And I said that if you would give me a million dollars to block Cam Hayward for one play,

I would take it, but I wouldn't be able to use it because that would be dead. So I think Derek Henry is probably in a similar price range. It starts at a million for you? Wow. Yeah, no, I'm with you. I don't want to get it. If I really had to think about it and it wasn't just a joke. So I'm asking you the reverse.

How much would you give up like 80% of your cash on hand to get out of this situation? No. If you told me... You would take the Derek Henry thing. If you, if you stood in front of me with a bag and the bag had $100,000 in it. Okay. And you said you can have this bag of money if you stand in front of Derek. at Henry for one play, I'd probably take 100 grand, but I think that's where it starts.

So let me ask you a follow-up question. How quickly would you be able to return to normal work? Oh, six months. Yeah. No, I'd say it's like a month. Six months is probably a lot. But at the WSJ, we said this debate about just like, if you played in a full football game, how long I want it to take it to get back to work? If you got a full football game? Yeah. Would it, be longer than a month. Would you return to normal activity within a year? Within a year, I probably could. But it definitely wouldn't be a month.

Yeah. You could do a whole pod on hypotheticals like that. And we will not be doing that. We will be offseason. March 15th. What hits will you take and how quickly you can come back is definitely like a June 1st pod? Yeah, I'm with you on that one. And so I think that,

Listen, the Patriots look spent right now. And this is sort of what they do in December. As we talked about a couple weeks ago, they had that really bad game against Pittsburgh and what week 16 last year. And then they just sort of turned it around. I think it was earlier than that. And won the Super Bowl.

It was in December. I know it was a 17-10 game. But regardless, looking spent and then winning the Super Bowl is kind of what they do. And that's why we're also hesitant to count. them out. I'm not counting them out. I would not be surprised at all if they just start scheming them up and they make the Super Bowl. But if I had to guess right now in two weeks out,

I think it probably ends for them in Kansas City. I think that's probably fair. I think the Kansas City and Baltimore right now look like they're in a different class than the Patriots are. All right. Let's take with stock down for a second here. Let's just talk about some of the coaches that seem like they're on their way out. Obviously, we talked about Jason Garrett. I think that's a virtual certainty. I've had a lot of conversations in the last three or four days people in Dallas about the thought process there, all of that stuff. I mean, that's one we've known about. Can I stop here there? I have not. I've been in Baltimore. I've not talked to anybody in Dallas, but I think the thought process is that Jason Garrett's a bad coach. So it's not even

about that. It's not about whether or not he's going to stay. It's about where they're going to go and the reasons they're going to go that direction. And I think that I'll write about that soon. But I think that what happens with that franchise is going to be fascinating. But we've known that for a while. Things that happen today, do you think the Browns losing this game today is a good thing for them? So Freddie Kitchens is not a good coach. And Freddie Kitchens was not going to be a good coach.

That's kind of my question. Kind of a did it have to happen immediately saying, yeah, I think so. Now what happens next? all sorts of chatter about the front office setup and John Dorsey, maybe not getting along with John Deepedesta, who gets final authority, what authority does the coach have in the situation? Who is the coach?

Is it someone that John Dorsey would really like? It's maybe an ex-packers coach, something like that, or is it someone that Deepedesta likes? Someone like Kevin Stefanski, who we talked about a couple of weeks ago, was Deepa Depedesta, one of Deepedessa's choices, a couple of years ago. So I think you start getting into situations where, and this happens in a handful of front offices where there's just a lot of cooks in the kitchen and it just needs to shake out. So is this going to be a good thing and is everything going to be solved next week?

I don't know, maybe. But I do think that there's a fairly good chance that things, there's an uptick from here because I don't think Freddie Kitchens was the guy. reading that stuff about the structure there and about who gets final say and about who it kind of is the loudest voice in the room all of that stuff it really kind of reminds you that ownership and how things work independent of who's the GM who's the coach all of that truly does matter because when I was reading that stuff I was like this seems like a bad idea. I just think it's really hard to be successful when you have that sort of muddled kind of distribution of responsibilities. And I'm just not sure where they go from here because I think

John Dorsey is good at picking the players. But if we have this really, these blurred lines and this lack of organizational vision, that worries me. And it seems like that's where the Browns are right now. And that's where they've been for a really long time. Yep. I mean, this is the Browns. And that was the mistake that we made was they had the hallmark, the earmarks of sort of a smart franchise. They got good value on guys and they made nice moves. But just because you make moves that make you resemble a smart franchise doesn't mean you are a smart franchise and that football is made up of thousands of little tiny decisions. And there are certain teams who make, a vast majority of their decisions correctly, and there are certain franchises that do not. And guess which teams typically end up winning over the longer period of time? Smart teams always beat dumb teams, well-run teams always beat in the long run over a 10-year period, let's say, always beat poorly run teams.

This doesn't happen every Sunday, but it happens on most Sundays. And if you tally those up, it happens in most years and most decades. and the mistake with the Cleveland hype was mistaking a smart offseason for a smart franchise and it's on them at this point going forward to build a smart franchise because it hasn't happened in Cleveland in a long time. Any other coaches you want to talk about before we move on? Yeah, I think Ron Rivera is, so Ron Navarre is an interesting candidate in Washington. A couple of reporters have said that they're nearing a deal, I guess.

He would get final say on the draft. I think that that's a very, very dangerous game to play with Bruce Allen still in the building. He's out of the football operations. He has to go, doesn't he? I just don't understand. I don't understand how you can bring in a guy like Ron Rivera and keep Bruce Allen. It just seems like the worst idea. Have you checked in on the Washington Redskins anytime in the last 19 years?

Yes, I haven't. I've written about it extensively. It seems like the worst idea. anyway. God. So I think he's the right type of person to bring in there. Yeah, I actually strangely like Marvin Lewis more for that job,

which now was reported a couple of days ago. So there was an interview in the Bahamas, apparently that was the report, Marvin Lewis getting after it. And I think that that makes sense just from a reclamation project standpoint. And Marvin Lewis won games with Mike Brown as an owner. I think that's interesting.

I think Bronner may be better fit somewhere else. But I don't know. I mean, I love Bronner and Cleveland. Yeah. Where are we on Mike McCarthy in Cleveland? I'm not a Mike McCarthy guy. I guess I could just say that flat out.

I just, I'm not. I understand why you'd interview him. And I want to talk about this for a second when we get there. But I understand why you'd interview him. But if I was going to hire one of those types of guys, like the retread who had like some sort of success over a long period of time, I would rather go with Ron Rivera. If you want to do the CEO type coach, I think Ron Rivera is the better choice.

Yeah. Or Marvin Lewis. I would rather have Marvin Lewis or Ron Rivera if that's the type of head coach you want to hire. I don't know. My advice is everyone passes on the Redskins job. Oh, I absolutely would. I'm talking about for all the other teams. So the Mike McCarthy thing, what I want to discuss very quickly, I like how the Panthers are going about this.

And, you know, I'm sure Panthers fans may not be super excited about the idea of interviewing Ron Rivera. But this is, or excuse me, if interviewing Mike McCarthy. But the reason you fire Ron Rivera with four weeks left in the season is to kick the tires on every single thing you possibly can. So like the Panthers apparently reached out to Pat Fitzgerald. I don't think Pat Fitzgerald is a particularly good football coach, but you should be doing everything you can to talk to everyone you can when you're literally trying to build the future of your franchise. So I like what they're doing.

I've met Pat Fitzgerald a couple times. He's coming to the Wall Street Journal and hang out with us. I live in Chicago, so I know a lot about Pat Fitzgerald. Yeah. Anyway, I don't think Pat Fitzgerald can name five NFL teams. I'm sure he can. I don't think he can. I mean, he's, he's so into Northwestern. It's actually unbelievable. But I think that you should talk to everyone you possibly can.

No, I know. No, no, no. I know. Interview 40 guys. He said no. There were reports that apparently Paffetz, it's bears or bust for Paffetz Gerald. I cannot wait for Paffet's Gerald to get the Bears job in 2022. I will, I will walk into Lake Michigan with boulders attached to my ankles. No, we talked. So we talked about this. a couple weeks ago, but the ability to, the ability to, to keep an eye on the NFL is actually a huge part of, I think, NFL success. And that's why I think you, you hear someone like Matt Rule or I've talked to Lincoln Riley,

and they kind of know what schemes are working, which coaches have worked and that kind of stuff. And it's like, oh, this could work at the NFL level. And then again, it's why we said a couple weeks ago. Like, I don't think Debos when he knows who Tom Brady is. Like, some of these guys are just, college brain, college specialists. If you had to put money on it right now, speaking of Lincoln Riley,

we'll move on from the coaching conversation in second year. If you had to put money on it right now, who do you think is the Dallas Cowboys head coach in 2020? I would, you know what my favorite outcome would be? They do a full coaching search, and Jerry Jones decides his guy is Jason Garrett. So here's the guy.

It's funny because if you took the names out of the equation and you just did a coaching search, Jerry Jones would pick Jason Garrett. It's like, remember the Black Mirror episode where people just keep getting matched up and then they run all the simulations? You know what I'm talking about the dating app thing? It's like that.

And they've run 20 million simulations of the Jason Garrett and Jerry Jones relationship and every single time, every single time Jerry Jones picks Jason Garrett. Jason Garrett and Jerry Jones picks Jason Garrett. end up in that like whatever that like weird hotel room is every single time.

Yeah. Well, let's let's leave that part out. So I understand what you're saying. It's not, it's not going to be Jason Gary. It's going to be I kind of want it to be Urban Meyer, but I can also see Urban Meyer.

That's the name I keep landing on. I kind of think the Urban Myers go look at the situation. I mean, Brian Curtis was on this show a couple weeks ago. It is, there's so much that comes along with it. the Cowboys coach. Yes.

It is just different and it's not all football at all. And I wonder if Irvin Meyer's going to be like, what the hell is this? Or if and Brian Curtis made this point, Urban Meyer wanted to be the Florida coach, he wanted to be the Ohio State coach. He likes Crown Jewel type things. And I think that there is a real case to be made that he would want that challenge. If I had to put money out of it right now, I would say it's Irvin-Mire. But the Cowboys are not going to make the playoffs, so let's not spend a ton of time on this.

Let's get to stock up. And speaking of teams not making the playoffs, let's talk about the Cincinnati Bengals because I watched LSU play football yesterday and the LSU quarterback is going to be the Cincinnati Bengals quarterback most likely. And that dude is really freaking good, man. I don't, I'll be really curious to see what happens there.

I think they could get a King's ransom for him if they wanted it. And I am fascinated as to how that's going to play out. So I don't think they're going to do that. I think they're going to draft Joe Burrow. I think they do too because they're a boring franchise. So I think they will do the safest thing possible. I think that the best way to not be a boring franchise anymore is to take Joe Burrow and have them throw the ball over the field.

I will say that. I think so too. Okay. With Joe Burrow, let's just start irrational and hyping him up for his rookie year. What are the expectations for a guy like Burrow coming into, to a team like the Bengals who have two-win talent. I mean, Zach Taylor did probably exactly what

he was supposed to do this year, which is win two games with the roster that was that was going to win two games. I mean, AJ Green, their best player, wasn't playing all season and kind of shut it down after week 13 to 14, whatever it was when, I don't even know a situation, but he didn't play all year, right?

And he just, Zach Taylor had done much to work with. So now you bring in Joe Borough in this situation. Do they go pull kind of an Arizona Cardinal situation where they go out and they build a little bit of a team around him or do they kind of let the bottom fall out again next year. What do you see the Burrow bangles look like? So I love Joe Burrow. I tweeted this this morning. He is my favorite college quarterback of the last like 10 years. I love the style he plays with. I love his pocket presence. I love how accurate

he is down the field. I love his ambition down the field. He is my favorite. I love watching him play in LSU's offense. Joe Burrow, and I wrote about this a couple months ago, and I talked to people in the league about it, Joe Burrow is not an exceptional talent. Joe Burrow is not Pat Mahomes. And I think that's important to keep in mind because I feel like Joe Burrow needs a system that's going to allow him to succeed. If you drop Joe Burrow into Deshawn Watson's situation in Houston, it's not going to go

well. So by virtue of having Joe Burrow, I don't think it makes you great. So, and I think Kyler Murray is similar. I like the, the Cliff Kyler pairing. I think that there was a good idea. I think it's going to go well. But even Kyler Murray, I think by virtue of him being Kyler Murray is a more transformative player than Joe Burrow is. I think you need Joe Burrow in the right situation. And I don't know if next year in Cincinnati is the right situation. I think Joe Burrow is obviously an incredibly special player. I think that I don't know. I actually haven't watched enough film and talked enough people to sort of have an opinion on your specific thought that he's not Patrick Mahomes type talent.

But I do think seeing what I see at this point, I think that he's at least going to make the Browns better than he looks like the type of quarterback. So he's going to be the Browns quarterback now. Yeah, I'm looking at I'm actually looking at Browns Bengals highlights. That's how it happened. But he's going to make, he's probably, I mean, the Bengals did make the Browns better, by the way, by beating them. Absolutely. It's fired. Having said that, Joe Burrow, I think, is the type of player who immediately can almost like Kyler was this year,

even though they're extremely different players, he can show so much of a flash that he makes them competitive in games they shouldn't be. Are they going to win seven games next year? Probably not. But are they going to be competitive because Joe Burrow is going to have some awesome games? Yeah. And those are the expectations. So I, if we're talking about Joe's, I am really curious what's going to happen with Joe Brady

because if I were an NFL team, I would offer him $5 million a year to be my office coordinator. Like right now. Well, does it upset you that he's younger than us? It's crazy that he's two years younger than me. I can't even imagine it. I covered high school football when I was in. college and it was the years that he was playing for everglades high school and i was

very afraid and actually looking through the clips to make sure i never covered a game with this or else i was just going to walk into the baltimore harbor i did not i covered we've done a lot of walking into bodies of water tonight different bodies of water you got to switch it up you got I switch it up. All right. Any more stock ups do you want to hit? No. I mean, I think that there's, I mean, I guess it, the Philadelphia Eagles.

I think that the Eagles and the Titans, they took care of business when they had to. And I think there's something to that because there were a lot of teams today that either one didn't like New England or two made it a lot harder than it had to be. The Eagles made it a little bit hard. I mean, God bless that defense. I mean, I think that, so Carson Wentz, I saw Dan Harlovsky tweet. And in some ways, I agree with him that what Carson Wentz did this year is more impressive than some of the stuff he did in 2017. I love, I love Dan, but Dan, Dan has a blind spot for Carson and Matthew Stafford.

That's that that's Dan's thing. He loves them both so much. And so, but I think that someone had to win that division. So I don't think that we're going to look at Carson Wentz's season and put it up next to, you know, Dammerino, 1984. here. But he he has been competent with an incredibly bland cast of a receiver. Zachert. I agree with that. Zachertz has what apparently is quite a serious injury and who the hell knows what what's going to happen in the short term there. So I think that Carson Wentz's ability to run some competence here in the face of all of these injuries and the defense's ability to just, you know, to just generally, uh, get things done and get to a point where they could win a

really crappy division. There's at least some, some kudos that, that should be thrown their way. I agree with you. And I, I do think that they'll be a good team next year. I think that if they get even slightly healthy, you know, younger guys coming into more prominent roles, we'll see what happens. But I just, again, we talk about smart franchises. Smart, smart franchises tend to succeed. And I think that they're a smart franchise. And I just groaned. I just grinned. I just because I realized I want to pick them to win the Super Bowl next year. By the way, buddy, guess what's on the table now? Eagles Chief Super Bowl.

Oh, yeah. Let's do this. Which we both picked, right? Yes. It is in, it is. Can I tell you a funny story? Can I tell you a funny story? I'm sure.

You sure can. I sent the picks in the preseason to Megan Schuster, and I said chiefs over Eagles. and then I sent my blurb and I was just doing a million things at once and I sent a justification for the Eagles winning the Super Bowl. I don't believe you whatsoever. I promise you, I have the slacks. It doesn't matter.

The Chiefs aren't going to win the Super Bowl either. Oh, I don't know. I don't know. It doesn't matter. And then I had to think about which one I actually believed because it went back and forth on it. And then I decided that I was just going to stick with the Eagles. It was fine.

When the Eagles beat the Chiefs in the Super Bowl, we're going to look like freaking geniuses. It's going to be amazing. Yeah. No, it was definitely, it wasn't, it wasn't that I waffle. It wasn't that I changed my mind

or anything like that. It was just that I kept going back and forth on who was going to win my hypothetical Super Bowl to the point that I'd even outthought myself. All right. Tough scene. Before we get,

before we get out of here, let us tip our cap to the most important thing that happened today. James Winston. 30. 30 for 30. 30. 30 and 30. I was watching that game with baited breath. The Packers, I'm in New York right now.

And I had to watch out because there was the TV situation where I'm staying was not appropriate for watching a lot of games at once. And I made them put on the Falcons, the Falcons Buccaneers game. And it was right next to the Packers Lions game. I was so much more interested in the Buccaneers game and watching James. but the guy sitting next to me, I told him like he's two away from 30. And all of us were like cheering when he threw both interceptions.

It was James Winston throwing picks can, you know, it brings people together. It really is a special thing. So first of all, James Winston after the game was like, if I got rid of those, I'd be the best. Which is an amazing thing to say. It was an amazing thing to say. It was awesome. It was an awesome thing for him to say the Bruce Ariens press conference afterwards was unbelievable.

Everyone, everyone did a great job. Everyone did. It almost reminds me a little bit of part of the reason that the Saints and Rams game was so interesting was that everybody after the game just played their role. Like Tommy Lee Lewis, who was a receiver, like told the story of getting hit like a million times to like five different throngs of media. And then Nicole Robicolm. kept talking about how we just hit the crap out of them.

And it was just like everyone was just in the press conference. It was like, yeah, that happened. And that's kind of the James 30th 30 thing. Is the Bruce Ariens are going to describe these things in detail? James Winston's are going to be really funny about it, albeit unintentionally. Like, this is, we're getting the full James Winston turnover experience here. So James Winston, five years into his career, has thrown 88 interceptions. Okay.

I love it. That would be tied for 141st all time in the NFL. By the way, Mark Sanchez is 140 with 89. He's only been in a league for five years. So number one ever is Brett Farve, obviously, right? Yeah. So Farve through 59 more interceptions than any other quarterback of all time. George Blanda is number two.

And George Blanda played well into his 40s. Man, George Blanda. George Blanda's number two. John Hadole, Vinny obviously is number four because Vinny played, you know, for 37 years. I am really, the only reason I care about James Winston's career at this point is to see how many interceptions he throws if he ends up planning a 15 year career. Dude, John Hedl and Fran Targanton both threw a ton of picks for only playing.

Each friend played 17, Hado played 15. 16. But that was a different era. Passing was not nearly as efficient. To throw 30 interceptions in a world where it's easier to throw the ball than it's ever been is truly beautiful. I just can't. We will never talk enough about the year that James Winston just had. He threw 30 interceptions in 2019.

It's absolutely amazing. someone's just going to franchise tag him i love it i he's asking for 30 million dollars a year apparently so yeah i mean asking for and getting for different things man i don't know man when it comes to quarterbacks i'm not sure they're that different all right that's all we got it is 1 20 a m where i am so it's time to there's a ton i am also on these codes ton more to get to obviously playoff individual playoff matchups coaching stuff i think we'll get to that we'll get to on Thursday. Yeah, there's probably going to be more fallout from the strange non-pass interference

review that would have changed everything and gotten Robert Mays out of his very, very pessimistic Seahawks rant. And so I think that there's a lot to unpack on Thursday. I want to address this very quickly before we get out of here. It's not about Seahawks pessimism. I am optimistic about the Seahawks. I think they're a good football team. It's more a question of if you take it.

path B instead of path A, what happens? I want to make this clear. I think the Seahawks are a good team. If the Seahawks made the Super Bowl, I would not even blink at it. I just am wondering what would be different if they chose a slightly different path. That's it.

That's all. I'm just trying to get myself out of this right now. That's all. Too late. Guys, as always, thank you so much for listening to Bringer NFL show on the Linger Podcast Network.

We'll be back on Thursday.