The Ringer NFL Show - Steelers, Bucs, and Browns With Jeremy Fowler. Plus: Which Teams Will Go From Bad to Good in 2021?

Episode Date: December 17, 2020

Kevin is joined by ESPN’s Jeremy Fowler, and they start by discussing what’s wrong with the PIttsburgh Steelers (4:18). After that they talk about the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, the coaching carousel, and much more (15:42). Then The Ringer’s Nora Princiotti and Danny Kelly join the show to talk about teams that are bad this season but will be good next season (43:23). Host: Kevin Clark Guests: Jeremy Fowler, Nora Princiotti, and Danny Kelly Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It is the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Kevin Clark. Great show today. Jeremy Fowler from ESPN joins me to talk about the Steelers, the coaching carousel, and the future of Dak Prescott and Carson Wentz. And the Nora Prince ofati and Danny Kelly join me to talk about the teams. They're going to go from worst to first next year. A lot of really good insight in both segments. Let's get to the show.

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like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. All right, Jeremy Fowler, senior NFL reporter for ESPN. What's going on, man. Kevin, it's a pleasure. We're just, I'm still recovering from the Ravens game. We were just talking about what the heck does happen. Two days later. I feel like in 10 years, I'm going to be doing a piece on what happened. ESPN's been making it 30 for 30. There's going to be a narrative podcast about it on Spotify. Like, this is, that's the game. It has it all. It's the story that you were born to write, actually. Yeah, I don't know if that's a compliment or not. But yeah, it's definitely a compliment. It was a hell of a game. I will say this. I want to start with the first Jeremy Fowler story I ever read,

I was in college, and you, I think, were about to start covering the Gators, but you wrote a piece about the high school I went to because we were playing Miami Northwestern that night in the state championship game. And we had this long feature. And I remember reading it and saying, this guy's pretty good.

And I also knew, because we were playing Miami, Boom was playing Miami Northwestern that night, because there were so many future NFL guys on that team that we were about to just get trounce. So I was getting, I was getting all the positive. of clippings we could before that game because I knew exactly what was going to happen.

That's awesome. So that must have been like, oh, what year was that? Seven. Oh, seven. Okay. I want to say. It's funny because it turned out, it turned out that Levanti David was the best player in the field that night, but no one thought that back that. No one knew that.

Because no one knew that because that was, I'll tell you a story about that game. I, so they lost, my high school was like 40 to nothing. I didn't have been there in tears. I didn't really care all that much. But the, uh, Jacori Harris was the starter for Northwestern. Yeah. And he was just throwing. darts all night and then he gets hurt and has to come out of the game. And this, I'm thinking,

okay, well, maybe there's a chance here. And then the backup comes in and throws like the best past the night, like 40 yards for a touchdown. I think it was like Tommy Street or something. And a couple years later, Teddy Bridgewater is at Northwestern. And I'm thinking, oh, well, the backup must have been Teddy Bridgewater. I don't know. I don't know the roster that well. And then I I see one of the guys from that team a couple of years ago. And I'm like, hey, was that guy who came in and through one pass, it was a dart? Was that Teddy Bridgewater? I think I was like, no, no, no, no. that that team was so stacked. Teddy Bridgewater wasn't even on the quarterback depth chart.

He was playing receiver. Okay. That's what you need to know about Miami High School football. Is it Teddy Bridgewater was not on the quarterback depth chart of that state championship team? Eventually, I think next year he was a starter. But that's Florida. When I have to tell people about Florida high schools, it's that story. You're Teddy Bridgewater.

You're on a $60 million contract and you can't even get a rep. Can I just get like two throws? He was a starter as a sophomore. I was a, you know, Kimberl Tompkins on that team, Sean Spence, all those guys. Speaking of, it's insane. It's insane. It's insane. All right. So you cover the Steelers for a number of years before you went national. And I want to start there because I don't know what's going on there. Because this was a team where I spent the past four or five, six weeks wondering if they can beat the chiefs.

And now I'm wondering if they can beat any good team. I don't know. A big picture, Jeremy, what's wrong? I think right now they know they can't be good teams. Like you can sense it. Ben Rothersberger was talking this week. He's like, hey, if the playoffs started now, we might be in trouble, but we got three weeks to figure it out. And he's right.

I mean, there's a feeling there right now that they have to find a way to move the ball without throwing four-yard passes over and over 50 times. Like, they know that. I think they started that year early in the process to try to protect Ben. But now they know they have to adjust. And, you know, I don't think his arm, from talking to people over there, I don't think his arm strength is completely gone. Like, there's not a ton of worry around.

him right now. I mean, the drop passes are a huge issue. But, you know, he's, he's been inaccurate with the deep ball. So when you can't run the ball, the offensive lines beat up and you can't throw a deep ball, all you're left with is just sort of like the middle range stuff. And so, like, teams are just sitting on it now. So until they can show them that they can beat that, that's the problem. The defense is beat up, but it's going to, it will at least like keep you in every game still. With Rappasperger, do you think he can, you know, they sign him to a two-year extension, I think, a couple of years ago, both years over $30 million. I talked to Kevin Colbert before the season. He said, you know, the only reason Ben is still

here is to win Super Bowls. You said you think his arm strength is still good, but, you know, obviously there are limitations on him. Do you think he plays beyond this year? So when I say good, I mean, like, not as good as before, but like still. Right, right. Like, it's not what it was. I would say even like three or four years ago, like some scouts and people you talked to like, I don't know about Ben's arm. Like, he's kind of perpetually banged up. right i mean it's just it's going to catch up at some point so what was it sorry i got caught up oh no the question was do you think that that he plays beyond this year do you think he has that kind of i think he's going to ride this out like i really do and he's you know he's always

made pretty clear that like hey i'm going to play until they kicked me out you know guys say that but i do think in this case it is true um because he's got this is the time they're going to do another deal probably but they're going to be faced with a huge question because he's got one year left after this, they're going to do it. That's what they've always done. Now, you know, they got to protect themselves in this case. You know, and as cap hits humongous, you almost have to unless, you know, you just want to part ways. I just don't see them doing that yet, even if they want to draft a guy in the first round or get somebody or do a Carson Winstey or something crazy, like, you can still do Ben for another year or two. Like, I think he wants to play to least 40, maybe a little

longer if he can, you know, but I don't know. I just, I don't know if. I don't know if. he's taking a lot of hits, a ton of injuries. Yeah. And, you know, if the arm strength's not the same, nobody would look at him as like the TB 12 method of like training on the side.

Like he's not the avocado ice cream guy. He's just not. Even though he's in pretty good shape this year compared to previous years, but that's all relative, Jeremy. That's all relative. It's very relative. It's very relative.

So I think like Tom Brady's 45 is his 40. Yeah. Right. Right. You've talked about that in the past about how much. many hits he's taken because Robesberger and Brady, I think, are going to be the two most sacked quarterbacks of all time. But that, that's a little different because Rathesburgh obviously came in the league after Brady. So he's taken just a ton of hits. How has Rathesberger's game changed over his career? And I know we talked about it a second ago, but where is it as

compared to where the style they wanted to play, maybe even five years ago? Right. Well, it's funny. You mentioned that because we were talking about doing a story like even last year, hey, Ben's coming up on the all-time sack record. We should do like a fun graphics story and look at all the hits he's taking and talk to all the people who have sacked him. We're thinking he'd break it pretty soon. And then all of a sudden he gets sacked like one time every three or four games. I mean, he's just not taking hits. It's gone the complete opposite way, which is like, again, it's good that they're getting

the ball out and, you know, they're doing all those things. But, I mean, defenses are now sitting on that. So I think he's going to have to take a little more pressure. They're going to have to get creative with him or just let him do the no huddle thing, which he likes to do, you know, it's predictable. bullets five wide, maybe a running back, and just let him toss it around and take the occasional deep shot. But, I mean, he's found a way to avoid those sacks now where, like, he used to just be

nine seconds in the pocket. I'm going to spin four times and I'm going to find Heath Miller. And then, you know, now it's like, it's really not a semblance of the old Ben at all. I mean, occasionally he'll do a little spin move. But it's very, like, restrained and just like a thoughtful passing game. game now. You've been at locker room a bunch and, you know, and no one can be in any locker room right now. And obviously, you moved off the beat. But I guess my question generally is we've seen them in some dark times before, especially when Rotsberg was hurt. They've had lost seasons or they,

you know, even last year, even though they, they, they had a respectable record. It looked pretty lost once Routhington went out. Um, Mike Tomlin as a coach. I think people have probably, uh, recalibrated their, their expectations last couple years. I think Mike Tomlin is, is a much better coach and I think he was given credit for until maybe last year. What is what is the vibe around this team when you talk to people right now? And what does a coach like Mike Tomlin do when things are bad when you, when you were around them? Yeah.

So the vibe around the team is actually like, it's almost weird. It's like it's almost one of validation with some of the credit that you've seen Tomlin get like on social media. And you've seen, especially when they're 10 and 0, 11 O, it's like, wow, this guy's finally getting his due. They're like, well, he's not only won a Super Bowl. he's never had a losing season. He's awesome with players.

He just interacts at them in such a way that makes him feel comfortable that makes them want to play for him. And then they finally got the defense. It took like six years to rebuild this defense. And they were mediocre for a good five years. And then now it's like you've got superstars everywhere and they get a bunch of sacks and they're elite,

despite some of the injuries. And so there's a sense of wanting to kind of almost do it for him. You talk to some of these guys. They like they love the credit. that he's gotten. And there's a lot of veterans on this team that have been with him a very long time. And so they want to get it done. But, you know, Tomlin, probably, you talk to people close to Tomlin.

Like, they'll say, like, they'll point to 2013 when they went eight and eight. And it's like, that's his best coaching job he's ever done. Because they'll say, like, he's really good when you're down and when you're struggling and it's ugly, you know? And so, like, because he can help grind out some wins. So he'll, like, he'll just do, like, settle motivation. and, you know, he'll get guys kind of locked in to get to work and they'll get a little creative with the game plan on defense and they'll usually find a way to figure it out. So I think there's

really not a sense of panic there right now as a result. It's just like, you know, I mean, Ben's tried to spell it out multiple times publicly like it's ugly with the offense right now. He knows that. It's just a matter of getting, kind of like seeing the ball go through the hoop, getting a big play, and then they think it'll be an avalanche after that. It's really amazing to me how blown here. Like he, he, Brooke, asked for me, Span asked him what was going on. He basically said,

not very good. Like, he didn't, that's just how he talks. I mean, he's pretty blunt in those situations normally. And, you know,

remember the Todd Haley stuff when you were there? I mean, he likes to be very honest when it calls for it. Last thing on the Steelers, speaking of Tomlin, because I think that one of the things

that we're starting to realize is how good of a job he did when Lev Bell was there and Antonio Brown and all the different characters who have cycled out. Give me your best story from that era,

that goes to what kind of coach he is and just how off the rails, whether that's A.B. or somebody else got in that era of Steelers football. Ooh, that's a good one. You know, the, I would probably say the time when A.B. went AWOL before the Bengals game is a good one. Because basically, like, he was having issues of Ben. He was mad at everything. He was mad, including it, like the MVP team award. the juju got over him.

He was upset the whole year. He and Ben are just like, we're not on speaking terms. And so they basically sent him home. And then like late that week, Drew Rosenhouse calls Tomlin. And Tomlin recounted this story. He's like, hey, you know,

A.B. is ready to show up and play today. And then Tomlin's like, look, it doesn't work that way. Like, he can't play. Like, it's over. And so like, you know, A.B. showed up randomly in like this. jump suit. It was like 18 different colors and glasses. And we all thought it was he showed up like 35 minutes for the game. And he goes on the field and talks to Andy Dalton and talks a few people

and then just like leaves. And then he's not in the locker room. So essentially like Tomlin sent him home. And so he got like labeled this players coach that were just enable, enable, enable, enable. And he did do some of that for sure. But it was just because he had to kind of keep the train moving with these guys that were combustible. But he had limits. And I think that was an example of like, you know, he found a balance between when, you know, you had to send a message and then when you had to kind of, I don't know if Kyle is the right word, but just gently pull a superstar along, you know, for the greater good. The only time, I talked to AB, maybe five times in my life. And one of them, he just clearly did not want to do the interview.

He was with DJ Collwood as I was talking to him. Okay. And we went, my last question, AB. AB, okay. And so, and I said to him, I was, we were doing this thing. He was, like, he was doing this thing and the whole time he was basically like I don't want to do this and I was like okay cool we have 10 minutes in the phone let's just try to get to this so we're doing this thing called starting five I think it was called it was a going to be a ringer thing where everyone just says like they're five favorite people in different fields and so I explained the concept to him and he goes uh DJ collid and I was like okay like what who the other for and he just goes DJ called five times and then he ended the interview and say oh that's pleasant you were there that

day when he had like the like the trainer there on the field. Yes. And he had like like a flamingo outfit. A guy feeding him water. And then apparently he just yeah. And he met the he had met the guy on a beach like a month ago, a month prior in Miami. It was it was the it was that training camp was wild. I know.

It was one of like his 28 trainers. Like he. You worked through trainers. You worked through trainers. And I just remember I was. Yeah. I was there that day. A.B.

I remember it was a backup quarterback that day. And the backup quarterback was throwing kind of bad passes. And so he was going over to his friends and loudly explaining why the backup's passes were bad. He was like, well, Ben's passes do this, this, and this. And then it was like, everybody could hear it. It was the strangest thing. Anyway, Antonio Brown, not that last training camp, not exactly a model professional. He was the gift that kept on giving, man.

He was great for my purposes. I was only there one day and I got the full experience. Oh, he's great. It was like the best team to cover it. It was the gold standard of like characters. I can imagine. All right, let's move on to Brady and the Bucks because I don't know what to make of this team. And I'm hoping you can help me because I don't know.

I mean, I think that there was, Bruce Ariens comes out and says our identities, we can do any damn thing we want. I don't know if they're good. What are they going to keep forcing Dan Bailey to give up 10 points? and it was an inconsistent, you know, it wasn't like they won me 50 points here. And so I can't get a handle on the vibe down there. What's going on in Tampa? Is that, you know, Jake Lays is on this podcast last week and said that Ariens and Brady

are fine, but obviously there are issues. When you think and talk to people in Tampa, what's going on there? Yeah. So, and that comment was interesting because you're right. It wasn't like it was a 40-point win that you boast about, right? They kind of grinded that out. So I think they were feeling the pressure a little bit. As an organization, they knew they had to win that game.

Like, I really sensed that or I was going to get ugly and they knew it. You know, like, I agree. I think Tom and Bruce were fine from what I have heard. Really, I think they overcomplicated it is sort of the feeling. They got Antonio Brown, and now you have like six weapons that you have to throw to. And so I think everybody was forcing it, you know. And really, you know, Bruce tried to simplify by stressing, hey, let's go to Ronald Jones 20 times and saying that publicly. You know, because like, look, look, let's run the ball and get a little play action if we can.

But let's, you know, stick with what we know and just keep it simple, you know. It's like when you have Mike Evans and Chris Godwin, a lot of people around the league consider both those guys top 10 receivers. So it's like you add Antonio Brown to that and Leonard Fornet and all these pieces. It's like, it was just a muddled, jumble pot of, like, options. And it was, it was too much. So I think, you know, you saw Antonio Brown snaps decrease a little bit. Now the challenge is, what do you do? Is he going to get upset?

And does that create another issue, which he's done in the past, you know? So it's, I think there's a sense of relief over there right now that they got that done because they knew it was going to get ugly, but didn't. Yeah. I mean, the AB thing, I think, is in one way, it's. fascinating. By the way, they have the Falcons this weekend. So, I mean, they have the Falcons, the Lions, and then the Falcons again.

And so if they drop one of these, listen, it's not panic time, but it is, I think we, especially when teams are under the microscope, we default too quickly to, oh my God, it's panic time. But there would be questions if they lost one of those games. But the AB thing, you know, Bruce Ariens basically said, if he

screws up one time, he's cut. And so it'll be interesting to see if he does kind of try to see if he can gripe a little bit and whether or not that comes to a head because I think that, especially if he's not producing, Bruce Ariens would probably love to cut it complaining Antonio Brown if it came to that.

Right. Well, and Bruce is kind of like Mike Toml where he's pretty good of managing that stuff, I think. Yeah. He'll tell him to straight, but he's not going to,

like, draw hard lines where you have to do push-ups if you say the wrong thing. So, you know, it's not like he'll, you know, and I think his,

from what I've been told, like, this stage in his life being older, he wants to try to enable, not enable like emboldened people like if hey if if tom Brady wants Antonio Brown and Antonio Brown's been troubled in the past let's try to make all this work and bring people together and so the what helps them there with Brown is like and this was strategic you sign him to a one-year deal his case with the former gymnast

Britney Taylor is going to be going on is not going to be resolved before January or February most likely so you know he can say in good faith like hey you know if if there are issues of this case, we'll drop them. There are going to be no issues with the case because it's not going to be done. And there'll be no resolution. So they know they have them for the year. And then next year they don't have to worry about it. And they can just hope for the best.

But they're counting on a motivated Brown to know that he can't cause any sort of trouble, even if that's been his M.O. in the past. All right. Let's talk coaching carousel. Give me a coach, a name that might be connected to a job this year that we're not talking about enough. a coach and a name connected. So I think, I'll try to go beyond the obvious. You know, because I think Eric Bienemy and Brian Dable

or two guys will probably get a job. I look at Arthur Smith, O.C. with Tennessee. You know, I think he'll get, I think he'll get pretty healthy run. You know, the jets can be an option for him. He's just, he's, you know, he comes from his family, like his dad was the CEO of FedEx. So he like, yeah,

I know. That's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, I mean,

like, he knows how to run and manage a program. Oh, no, no, no, no, I know what you mean.

I know you meant, you meant it from football standpoint. I just meant it from a cash standpoint. This is how we view the world differently. You're trying to talk about football. And I'm just talking about trying to talk about how much money he has. No, I get that organizationally.

It just makes sense that his dad, his dad would be, I believe his brother was a backup quarterback at University of Miami as well. and also mentioned was also a minor character in the book The Blind Side, Sam Kid, Cannon Smith, from what I remember. Okay, so the Jets job with Arthur Smith. We'll just extend that a little bit. Is the Jets job considered a good job because of Trevor Lawrence?

Because I put this on a poll last week. And I said, would rather coach Justin Herbert with the Chargers or Trevor Lawrence with the Jets? And it was about 90% Chargers. And I was a little bit surprised by that. And I understand why, because neither of these franchises are model franchises. So it's not like you're going to go in and have, you know, some, some great situation in Los Angeles with the Chargers. And so let's first start with the Jets. Is that considered

a good job because of Trevor Lawrence despite all the drawbacks, Jeremy? It's mostly considered a good job because you have the two first round picks. You got a ton of cap space. And most people think, like despite the mess there, that Joe Douglas is actually a pretty good talent evaluator. Yeah, I agree with that. Because their first two picks, Mackay backed in, Denzel Mems, those guys look like players, especially Beckton. And that was his first draft and crack at it. He got great value out of the Jamal Adams trade. So, you know, despite some of their issues there, like, there's a feeling that if you can

partner up with him, if they find the right coach where, like, they're, you know, they kind of have the same synergy as, I don't know. I mean, hey, we're using the Browns as a positive example right now. Sure. For once, Kevin Stafansky and Andrew Berry, where, like, you know, they look like they're going in the same direction as opposed to, like, tension. So that's why I think you'll have a lot of influence on the hire. He'll kind of get his own guy.

I mean, look, if Doug Peterson is available, that would not shock me at all if he's at least interviews for that job with this history with Joe Douglas, you know? Wow. That's a, yeah, no, that makes sense because when I'm thinking Joe Douglas, I'm thinking he's got connections to Philly and he's got connections to Baltimore. And Philly's tapped out right now. Okay? Like, I'm not saying Frank Reich and all those guys, those are gone.

And I'm not seeing a lot of innovation down there in Philly. And so then I look to Baltimore and I'm thinking maybe there's a connection. there with with one of their coordinators or one of their position coaches if they've been there long enough, they would obviously know Joe Douglas. So I think it's an intriguing job because, and I also think the egos of NFL people, and you know this more than anybody, the egos of people who work in the league are so high that they think they can be the person to change it. And so I think that those guys are almost always up for a challenge. With Los Angeles, I actually haven't heard with the Chargers in particular, obviously McVeigh is fine.

with the Chargers, I actually haven't heard much speculation. It's almost like they're kind of a ghost ship. Like, no, you know, like everyone just makes, oh, Adam Gase is gone. Doug Marone's going to be gone in two weeks, whatever it is. Matt Patricia, Bill O'Brien, whatever it is, all these rumors. I mean, I assume the Anthony one's going to be gone at the end of the season. What are you hearing and what could happen next with Justin Herbert? So you're right.

That one's tough because it's like, you know, they're kind of, and this is brought up to me by a source that they're, the charges are kind of like, the Bengals of the West. I was absolutely going to make that comparison because they're both such weird franchises that I can never predict anything. Right. Like they're not overly stable, but yet they're really stable. You know, they don't really want to like, because they're predictable and they don't want to.

They're stable and their instability. Right, right, right. They don't want to really fire coaches or, you know, like it's, uh, and they like Anthony Dylan a lot. I know that. Like they really, he's a sharp guy. They respect him a great deal. So it's not like they're waiting to fire him.

It's just, it's true. friending that direction. I mean, I know like a lot of people were asking about him four to six weeks ago before it got even uglier and all these weird curious losses piled up where you're running the ball in the final minute down 10 the goal line. Like, and then you lose 45 to nothing to the Patriots. I just remember coming back from that. So there's a feeling around the league right now that there's not coming back from that. But, you know, maybe, I mean, if, look, if they went two to the last three or something and at least show some respectability, then you can, you can justify it that we've made good strides with Herbert with the offensive staff we have let's keep that together

yeah what's the what is considered the best job when you talk to coaching agents or assistants or whomever you know it's funny and this is not consensus at all but i know a lot of people like the jacksonville job yeah that's like seriously jake goes on this podcast last week i mean i really do i think there's a lot there they'll get as long as you don't screw it up they'll get the number two overall pick yeah building blocks they've got they don't have to do a tear down because they already started the Terodyne when Marone was there. Like, it's just intriguing. I kind of like it. Right. And like Dave Caldwell was there almost 10 years.

Yeah. I think they had, what, was a one winning season? They had the playoff year. I mean, like, they're inclined to give some time to these people, too, to figure it out, you know, so. Dave Caldwell also got layered and just got a boss for like four years and then just got his old job back once Tom Coughlin got fired. Right. You just kind of, like, the loyalty there is actually like kind of admirable in a way. And I think that if you're looking for a job, I kind of want that, you know, no state income tax, no pressure. I mean, we got a question, a reader question on this show on Sunday that was like, they asked what happened?

What would happen if Carson Wenz played in Jacksonville? And I was like, that's a great question because there wouldn't be, there's criticism. Obviously, people make fun of the Jaguars or whomever, but it's not so urgent where it's like you play, you have one bad month and things look hopeless. And then it's like, when are we going to make the move to the backup? You know, if there's just not that that pressure cooker environment. And if I'm a GM, that's what I want. I want time to build up. Right.

And then Jacksonville knows whoever the coach is for the GM, you're going to have to get like a seven-year deal with a ton of money just because of where you're at in, in like the NFL space, you know, like you need security. So, you know, Justin Fields, some people think the gap with Trevor Lawrence is not all that big. Some think it is big. But like, if you're a Justin Fields fan and you can work with it. And then you got your guy for the next 10 years.

They have a ton of cap space. Some pieces, like they have some reasonable pieces. You know, maybe like Josh Allen types, guys you can work with. I mean, there is some talent on that roster. Yeah, no, I'm in total agreement with you. With the top of the draft, is there something that the NFL is talking about right now that the media is not that we need to be knowing, that we need to know about as far as a name or a team or, hey, this team might be looking for a quarterback or this quarterback is way better. then we think what's what's going on at the top of the draft right now?

Yeah, because I would say I've focused mostly on quarterback so far. Yeah. I haven't really gotten to other positions just yet. But I would say the intrigue with like the Trey Lance, Zach Wilson dynamic, like what exactly are these guys? Yes. And like teams can't really answer that just yet, especially with Lance,

they just haven't seen a whole lot of game film, but some are they might not be able to answer that. There's just not going to be game. If they're on, if they're more of a tape, you know, I've heard GM say, this before that they you know they're 80% tape 20% combe you know 10% combine 10% workouts or whatever if you're missing 80% or you know he played one game but if you're missing that huge chunk of his last year in college I don't know if those questions

will ever be answered you know Kevin Colbert told me in in August that he's always if there's a tie he's going to take the guy who played last year and I don't know if one game counts is playing and it wasn't a great game and that's 80% that's just basically gone but then guy like Josh Allen is having success You're going to look at Tray Lance. He's big and he's strong and he throws hard. And apparently like his intangibles are great. Like he's like a great guy.

So that's going to help him. And he's going to interview well and all that stuff. And like, you know, Zach Wilson hasn't played anybody this year. Like they just, there's been minimal competition, but like people love the way he throws the ball. And then, you know,

Kyle Trask is a guy that some people think is like a third round pick. Like he's not that great, you know. But then he's done so well. There's like some kind of like some Joe Burrow to him a little bit, you know, he'll squeeze a ball and third. tight windows and he's confident and all that stuff. So it's a, like the intrigue from like spots three to six and the quarterback

ranking are really what's being discussed a lot right now. Like Mac Jones at Alabama, some people love him. Like they think like one exact brought up Tom Brady to him with a caveat. Oh, no. No, he said like he's got a lot of the, like he looks like him when he plays. That's what he said. He's got like the story. I'm going to leave that one alone.

Lanky frame. Oh, is. lanky i'm lanky i'm lanky i'm not i'm not i'm not about i'm blanky i'm not i'm not about to like the way he throws a ball into like some decision making he's obviously not no no i get you i get you um college coaches because you know i think you've covered college football um the the last decade has been defined by the merging of the schemes at the two places and it feels like owners are are just more open to college coaches is there is there going to be more of a college coach exes to the NFL in the future or starting this year or is that is it going to be more

the arthur smith eric the enemy type type guys getting that nod i think there probably be at least one i mean like these guys see what man at rule did getting like a seven year of 69 million dollar deal whatever it is like that's intriguing you know um i do think matt campbell of iowa state is he could go either way he could be a college or pro guy i think but like you know from what i've heard he's like he's a diet tried and true exes and o's guy and you know some of these guys don't love recruiting. So I think he would have some interest if he wanted to. And I think there's maybe some intrigue from him, at least some mild intrigue.

I think Dan Mullen is intrigued by the NFL, maybe not this year, but at some point. I don't know how much interest there would be in Mullen yet. But, you know, I mean, all things considered pretty good three-year stretch there to start. I had an amazing discussion with Mullen a couple of years ago. Because he met with, I guess you weren't on the beat then, but he met with Jackson Daniels in 2006. And that was, they wanted to, Belichick and McDanielers wanted to learn all about Urban's offense and all that stuff. And it was fascinating that the kind of roots of that 2017 with the slot receivers and how they, how they used shotgun and all that stuff. A lot of that started in Gainesville in 2006.

So I think it'd be really interesting, especially, I mean, like, listen, there's so many guys who've gotten jobs because of Belichick's endorsement, you know? And if he's in that zone, I don't know. I actually don't know how close Belichick and Mullen are. Obviously, Belichick and Urban Meyer quite close. But I think that if Mullen gets in that zone, then I think he might be taking a little more serious. But listen, owners will spend money for offensive production. And if they think Mullen can get a little bit of an edge,

they'll give him a contract. Are you surprised Urban Meyer never made the jump? A little bit. A little bit. I think he's such a college, like, program builder, though. Yeah. You know, I do think he'll get back in at some point. I think maybe he's waiting for him.

You do. Yeah, I mean, why not? I think he's waiting for Brian Kelly. Whenever Brian, I mean, and Brian's a guy who, if he wanted NFL interest again, he could go that route. I think he's got such a good thing going on Notre Dame and you have good lines every year. And, like, you know, he knows he can win 10 games worst case there. So, but I think he's a guy I'm shocked as not an NFL coach.

I agree with that. He was an Eagles candidate around the time of Chip Kelly, if I'm not mistaken. Right. Yeah. And then he kind of took his game out and then Notre Dame struggled a little bit. but like now they're sort of leveled out and back on top. I mean, he just seems like an NFL coach to me. That's one.

I've always been surprised that he didn't jump. You know, like James Franklin or something like that, they look, they're a college coach, right? Like some guys are college coaches. To me, Urban is a college coach, but, you know, Brian Kelly's an NFL coach. That's just me. I just based on what I know about this guys. A couple more for you. The Browns, obviously, you know, you know that team well.

I don't think, you know, it's funny. I mentioned Kevin Stefanski's a coach of the year candidate the other day, and we got in this discussion, and I heard from some fans who were basically saying, you know, isn't it strange that the Browns are good for the first time in 18 years, and we're acting like it was supposed to happen? And like Kevin Stapansky's not a miracle worker. Like, it feels like, I feel like Browns fans have a case

if they're saying that Stavansky and Drew area being overlooked. Even though there's, you know, three GMs contributed to this, a handful of coaches, whatever. They took a step back last year. we should give them credit. What is the number one thing we should know about the Browns right now and the success that they're having, Jeremy? So I think a lot of it is just that they finally have,

like they've been looking for years to kind of have this synergy. And I hate that word because it's overused, but it is true. So when they fired John Dorsey, everybody was shocked because he had put together a good roster. And now we see that, right? But they wanted to hire Kevin Stefansky a year earlier and didn't. They went in Freddie Kitchens.

And they just decided, hey, let's do this the way we wanted to and get Andrew Berry and Kevin Stafansky and pair them up. Give it a modern approach, whatever you want to call it. And then, but, you know, Stefansky is a huge part of it because he's, you know, if you hired him in part because you want to run. line analytics, then he, you know, he can satisfy that. But he's also got the old school coach mentality, too. Like he marries both really well and keeps it simple and just says,

hey, we're going to run the ball a ton. And then right when you think they're going to run the ball time, like the other night they come out passing. And so, like, he's got a good, like, play calling process. He's getting the best out of Baker. So, you know, Kevin has a lot to do with it. I think they were largely, like, crazy unorganized last year and just had like, like some of the issues of the coaching staff were a mess,

and Baker didn't know what to expect every week, and it was ugly, you know, so, but the talent was there. So they should have been good last year, to be honest. They probably should have been like a nine or ten-win team. And so finally they should have. I mean, I had egg all over my face because I was like, oh, wow, this is, you know, the end of the process, all this stuff.

And I wrote all these stories, and they came out and they looked like the Browns again. And I'm just, I'm, well, listen, I think there's a lesson in it because they're kind of one year post the hype and they saw what their flaws were and they patch up the offensive line and all that stuff. And so I think that there was, there's probably a lesson in the post type rounds,

but I'm just, I'm just glad to see it. Two more for you. Number one, when you talk to people in the NFL, who is the best team of the NFC? Who do they think is the best team in the NFC? Best team in the NFC,

still the Saints in a weird way. But here's the problem, though. Like, if you ask who the best roster is, right? It's still probably the Saints. Well, it's funny because if you, if you probably, if you ask personnel guys, they probably default to best roster.

And if you ask assistant coaches, they probably default, you know, on the field product. Yeah. That's the problem. But it's so, you know, but the thing is with Breeze, right? Like you saw it earlier in the year, he still drew Breeze. Like he's still good. But, you know, there's some limitations physically now because of the age and everything else and some of the injuries.

So is that going to be the issues? I'm going to catch up to him. But, you know, I think if I think if you ask teams right now who's going to win one playoff game for you, it'd probably be Aaron Rogers in the Packers. It just feels like their time a little bit. And I think people were expecting a spite season from Aaron Rogers coming off the Jordan Love Pick and all that stuff. And they're getting it, you know.

And so that's why, like, nobody was really, when I was doing like some quarterback stuff this summer, like a quarterback series, nobody was ready to put Lamar or Deshaun and any of those guys above Aaron. They're just like, look, he's still, his stats are pedestrian in last couple years, but he's still that guy, you know. And their defense is caught up a little bit, you know, is a little more well-rounded than it was a year ago. So it's close between those two. I think the best roster, probably the Saints, best team, people are leaning toward the Packers. Last question. We'll put you on the spot

here. If there's one quarterback who might be on the move this offseason or any big free agent, biggest free agent storyline to watch in 2021, what is it? Or trade, by the way. See, I still think it's DAC in a weird way. That's what I was hoping for. I was hoping this was an entrant to a DAC discussion. Okay, go ahead. Segway. No, it's a It's $37 million. It's just, that's insane for this cap year. I don't know, for one year, right? Like, and his leverage is so outrageous right now that I think Dallas missed the window by year, you know.

And so to try to recover is going to really hamper them. But, I mean, maybe they say, look, look how bad we are without them. We have to pay what we want. They could do that theoretically. But just, you know, any like cap cruncher there is going to say, look, this is just going to be tough. This is like the one year where the salary cap. really matters. Like, if it's going to be $175 million this year, I'm going to drop by $25 million, $23 million, like usually it's not about that. You can just cut a few guys and it's about whatever

cash you want to pay, but it's different now. So I think, you know, so Carson Wentz is two, DAC is one for me. And that would be fascinating. We could get a Dan Mullen deck Prescott reunion. I love it. I love it. Yeah, Detroit. Exactly. So just a quick one on that. So with that, do you think that's a tag and train? Do you think they just let him go? Do they draft a guy at five? Because they had the fifth pick right now. And obviously they're not going to win another game because of Dallas.

Yeah, certainly. Well, I think they're going to try to resign them and then see where it goes, right? But if the money is just crazy. Yeah, the tag and trade is tough. Right. Well, you can put the non-exclusive on them, I guess, the franchise tag and try to. Yeah, they could do that. I mean, man, that would be after all that, though, that would be crazy.

They'd have to try to get something for them. But, yeah, I mean, they're looking at what? the seventh pick right now, the eighth pick. I mean, they could play Andy Dalton one more year and develop the draft guy. They could certainly do that. Ben Danucci. They could play Ben Danucci all next year. And I guarantee you to get the number one.

It's for a guy. Jerry Jones compared him to Kendall Hinton. That's not good. Poor guy was the sidearm throw was trying to make it happen. And like Jerry just killed him afterward. You did some reporting on Carson once a couple weeks ago. And it informed me a lot because it led me to know that the league. thinks a lot higher of Carson Winston, the media does.

What is his future? It's shocking that people still really like them. I just feel like they're still stuck with him. I do. I don't know because even if you trade him, you take a bunch of like dead salary cap. I think they're going to try to quietly shop him, knowing that he's already a bit broken anyways

and you're not going to hurt his feelings more than you already have. Because like when they drafted Jalen Hertz from what I was told, that was significant. for him because he's like i came i overcame nick foals and all these hurdles and then bam you pick a quarterback in the second round um so that was an issue and so you know he's that process is already a bit broken so it's like well why not at least you know flurr with the idea of a trade um you know a lot of some people i've talked to think indianapolis is sort of you know because of the frank right connection they really did have uh for what i understand a pretty deep connection and a lot of

based on like, you know, their Christian values and Frank was a minister at one point in his life. So that did play a factor. So, you know, the pieces add up there. But the Colts have a good thing going. And Frank has said, like, Rivers can play multiple years or is capable of that. At least you know what you're getting with Rivers. You don't know what you're getting with Wins. So I just don't know.

I think there's going to be some trade value. It would probably necessitate a reworked contract from Wince. That's the thing. And he might be willing to do that at this point. otherwise you're stuck with them to be honest it's just it's just an insane situation we've never had that before with it with his mega contracts we never had it before i mean listen nick foals was traded so i guess anything is possible but it's wild jeremy fowler senior NFL reporter at espn thank you so much man kevin appreciate it man thanks again all right now it's time for the dream team Danny kelly norah princiotti

danny you're somebody fancy team what's going on i lost this week in the ringer league and it's devastating but You know, life goes on. I did better than Danny and Craig, so I'm happy about that. So Isaiah beat you, producer Isaiah? Yeah. Is he the host of our fantasy football podcast? I guess so.

I think that's how it works. So it was a good run. You relegate a host. That would be funny, actually. It's like Bloodsport. There's just one winner, and that person gets to host a podcast. I believe that's how Bloodsport ended. Highlander.

There can be only one. There can be only one. I'm worried Bill's going to listen to this podcast, and then this is going to be a real thing. Did Isaiah host the pod now because he defeated Danny in single combat? A staff-wide competition winner hosts the next episode. That sounds like a Pete Carroll gimmick. Just like we're going to compete and then someone,

we're going to give a podcast out. Pete Carroll, Danny, you probably saw this. Pete Carroll is now having COVID-spacing competitions. Have you seen this? I'm not making it. I haven't seen that, but it makes perfect sense. You're either competing or you're not. You're either competing or not.

Pete Carroll's ability to turn anything into a mini game is unbelievable. Yeah. Live to compete, compete to live. Compete Carol and Nintendo are the two creators of mini games of the last 30 years who are just icons. Oh, man. All right. We're here to talk about football. And we're going to focus on who's going from, we wanted to say worse to first,

but we just mean bad to good. And I don't, listen, there are teams that are on the border right now where we don't know if they're good or whatever, but they might be, and we're not considering those people. We want teams that are just legitimately bad, they are going to turn it around next year, okay? That's the criteria. It could mean anything.

We'll start with you, Nora. Give me your first team. All right. So I want to make a case for the Carolina Panthers. Yeah. Who are an interesting one to me because most of the teams that I was considering at first, clans thinking about this are teams that have a good quarterback and a bad record.

Because that's safe, right? That's the hardest problem to solve when you're building a football team. So if you have, say, a Deshaun Watson, you should theoretically be pretty far ahead of the curve and being able to turn that around. The Panthers have Teddy Bridgewater, who has been good at times up and down is one of the reason that they have had seven one possession losses this year. He has not been great at the end of games. but I do think that them being able to stay in games with good teams is a good sign.

Teddy's played well enough that I can see it. And so this to me is just sort of an infrastructure pick because they've been, they've been without Christian McCaffrey for most of the season. They're in a division that is very good, but you're actually not super clear on the deal with the quarterbacks with two. of the good teams going forward. So there's at least a flicker of an opening there. But in general, I just really have been impressed this year with what Matt Roll and all

of those guys seem to be building. They're still in those early stages where they're fine cap wise, even considering all the constraints that'll be in place next year, they would have to build up their secondary, probably got a receiver in there, keep collecting pieces. is Jeremy Chin has been fantastic for them this year. So you hit on one, two more guys like that. Things can turn around quickly. The quarterback piece is the biggest question mark to me,

whether that's Teddy or someone else just taking a step forward and getting better play there. But I think for a lot of these bad teams, we don't know who the coach is going to be. We don't know who some of the leadership is going to be. And this is one where I really trust them to make. smart decisions. Yes. So I think that the biggest question is whether or not Joe Brady's

they're going forward, as we discussed. That's a huge part of infrastructure. I also think the timing is a part of it. You mentioned this, Nora. And, you know, Dan and Jeremiah, when he's on his podcast a couple weeks ago, he said that the Falcons should blow it up because they need to rebuild for when Brady and Breeze

are not in the division. Okay. So let's say that takes a couple of years for them. Well, it's, Breeze could be gone next year. Brady could be gone in two years. And we also, it's not like the Bucks are playing elite football right now. It's not like they're the chiefs and that we just have to give up on the division. Well, and even when they have, even when the Bucks have been playing elite football,

it has not always necessarily been because of Tom Brady. Right. Exactly. And so I'm, I'm with you and that there might be momentum building towards a 20, 21 or 2022 Carolina Panthers run where they, they make a little run in this division. So I think it's fascinating. I think the Brady thing is hard. And it's interesting because with Brady in particular, I think that I've always said, I've always thought the offensive push is a little bit overrated.

And this whole, you know, got to be with Sean McVeigh thing with the hiring trend of the last four or five years. And I've always said, you know, you look at a coach like Brian Flores who comes from the defensive side who is as good as any offensive coach and football as being a head coach. I just think we got a little too ahead of ourselves with offensive coordinators. Having said that, the argument for hiring offensive coordinators as head coaches is if you have a good offensive coordinator, he's going to be hired away immediately as a head coach. And that's what they face now with Joe Brady, is that there are going to be four or five teams, especially teams, especially there's a lot of openings this year, where they're going to say, screw it,

we're going to hire the young guy. I think he's like, he's younger. He's definitely going to be the head coach who's younger than me. McFey's older than me. But I just, I think that there's, I think that if they get him for another year, that's,

that is a massive, massive boost. Danny Kelly, Carolina Panthers. Where are we? Yeah, I almost had them on my list, in fact.

And I, I think the thing that kind of just made me think twice about it was the uncertainty around Brady because I think that he's been a big factor in making that offense, you know, work so well this year and be so dynamic and get a lot out of their skill players and all that. But I think just like on paper, they make a lot of sense as a team that will get a lot better next year. I mean, they basically remade their entire defense from scratch. I mean, they used their entire draft class on the defense. They picked all defensive players.

And so, you know, I think that was always going to take a while. You know, there was a talk coming into the season. The Panthers were going to be the worst team in the NFL. And then they, I think, started out like three and two. And people are like, oh, maybe they're not as bad as we thought. And obviously things have kind of, you know, not gone well since that start. But I think that, yeah, they're the type of team that if the defense kind of like starts getting a little more experience, get a few more pieces in either free agency or the draft, you could see that group.

make a big jump going forward. And obviously if they keep ready or, you know, maybe if they, even if they don't, I could still see this offense being pretty good next year as well. So they were definitely a team that I had on my radar as a potential jump. Kevin, I don't know if you remember this,

but you made a joke early on in the season about, I think it was because Dan Quinn got fired after losing to the Panthers. And you were like, that's just what happens. And again, they've had 7-1 possession losses this year. Every single time they're in a close game against a pretty good team. I root for them so hard just because I want to text you and just be like,

Mike Zimmer, hot seat, Zimmer, hot seat. It hasn't worked out, but I'm rooting for that turnaround next year. I think it can happen. The Panthers wins this year. So let's see, the Panthers beat the Falcons. They beat the Cardinals. So, you know, that's, we'll leave that. leave that aside for a second. They beat Matt Patricia and the

Lions. And who was their fourth win against? Chargers. Really? Yeah. Wow. No, you're right. So with the exception of Cliff, there's a real case you made that everybody involved should be fired here with the Panthers. Now, I love the Panthers. And by the way, it's not like Cliff said in the world on fire, okay?

But I love the Panthers. The other team was 7-1 possession losses, I believe. The Cardinals? Yeah. Is Matt Rule a better? coached in Cliff Kingsbury. Yeah. I think so too. Danny?

I honestly don't know. I don't know if we have enough track record to be like to make that determination quite yet. So I would just plead the fifth on that one. I saw DeAndre Hopkins route tree recently. And I'm just. It fixed it last week. It was a little expanded this last week. So at least I think the one thing I will say about Kingsbury is when he gets

roasted for something or when he gets, you know, completely buried about one thing or the other. seems to learn from it. You know what I mean? And like make changes. He's adaptive. Is Cliff Kingsbury the first coach who reads the comment section? Yes.

No, we already know that about Sean Payton. Sitting in his living room and, you know, reading, reading Twitter. Yeah. By the way, producer Arjuna says that Joe Brady's 31, which I refuse to acknowledge and will not be dignified with a response. Danny Kelly, your first team, go. So speaking of the Chargers, I didn't want to do this because. this is something that I think we do every single year.

Didn't want to do it, but I'm going to do it. But I'm going to do it. I have to do it. And it was exactly what Nora said. Maybe it's just the lazy way out. But I believe quarterbacks can sway the outcome of a team so much, you know, over the course of the season. I think Herbert is really good. I think he's going to just keep getting better. And I'm kind of going under the assumption that Anthony Flynn is going to get fired.

And they're going to have a new coach come in that will maybe be a little bit more offensive-centric and, you know, not pass or not run so much on first and second down, not be such a terrible in-game decision maker, all that stuff. I think, you know, I've soured on land a little bit during the season just because to me that just doesn't seem like a very smart pairing for the long term for this franchise just based on everything we've seen this year. So I just think, you know, obviously they're going to get Doran James back. They've got a lot of good defensive pieces.

The foundation is there. The chargers are going to just keep chargering. until they don't charge her anymore. I don't know when that's going to happen. They're going to charger themselves out? Will they ever stop charging? I don't know. I'm kind of just going to keep guessing that this is the year they'll stop charging.

But no, I don't know. Just to be totally honest, I just have faith that Herbert can kind of like get this thing righted and make that offense really dynamic. They have good pieces on both sides of the ball. And they just need someone that will come in and like smooth everything out. I don't know who that's going to be, though. Nora, fix the chargers for me.

Okay, so the first thing you do is you stop having the worst special teams literally ever. That is square one. That's where we start. We bring in blank check to Bill Belichick to be the special teams coach. We can bring in Brian Belichick, frankly. Any Belichick, Steve Belichick. Worst of all time. Worst of all time.

The drafting dog, Nike? Nike. Nike Belichick. I believe in Nike Belichick to fix the special teams unit, at least to get it middle of the pack. Do you know how much middle of the pack would do for this team in terms of avoiding just these ridiculous debacles? Because at some point, and I'm with Danny, the Chargers were my other team because at some point they have to stop doing this. Maybe they beat the Falcons. maybe there was a transfer of the ghost that haunted the chargers

and is now squarely focusing its energy on the falcons and we're good to go now. Like maybe that's what's going to happen forevermore. But even if it doesn't, if you switch up the coaching staff, and I think there's a lot of, there's a lot to like about Anthony Lynn, but the mistakes this year with clock management, just with sort of the cadence that they play at, and then with the special teams nightmares,

that were bad and then he took over and they were still bad. And it just doesn't, I'm not sure that all of this stuff like correlates one to one with Anthony Lynn. Like this can't all be Anthony Lynn's fault. But it's just time for a change is probably why I would expect that something happens there. But you get a little bit of new energy in there. You have the young quarterback who seems like a legit star. That can kind of change the vibe of a place.

and so with my hands sort of over my eyes, I picked the Chargers because the roster is just too good for them to keep doing this. Look at what happened with the Browns this year. I mean, they're the post type team or whatever. Like last year we were talking about them as going to be really good. And they just needed a coaching change to kind of bring in a new outlook and smooth things out. I mean, I don't know who it's going to be for him. Maybe this is like Dave Tobbs chance to finally get a head coaching job after being, you know, on that circuit for a while.

That's an amazing idea to bring in the best special teams coach in football to be the head coach of the team that can't figure out anything. I actually think I would go, maybe you throw a blank check at Dave Tab to become assistant head coach slash super. It's like what colleges do when they just give a defensive coordinator like $5 million. Like here you go. Just around the defense. I guess when you don't pay the players, it's, you get more money for. linebackers coaches. Anyway, the,

for me, I think it's it's an Arthur Smith type quarterback guru who also has, you know, Jamie Fowler has on this podcast from a, you know, structurally, you know, son of the FedEx guy. Like this is, he probably has some insights into how to build

something. So I think Arthur Smith could be good. I think that any of those, I mean, Brian Daibble would obviously be amazing with his work with Josh Allen. So I would go with an offensive guy who at least understands the other side of the ball, or maybe even a college guy. I don't know.

I mean, I'm open to anything, but they just, they have to get a guy who understands the totality of the game and clock management and all the things that, listen, the Chargers Charger. And the Walsh Journal had a piece today about how they lose, you know, more games of the past five years than anyone there. their termed, quote, horrible losses. And you can probably figure out what those are. And a light went off of my head.

And I was like, you know, I remember five years ago, very similar story in the Wall Street Journal ran. And I looked it up. And it was about the 2016 chargers. And we're just, we're stuck in this loop where the chargers have to solve a problem that starts with them charging. And they, in the process, end up charging more. And they have to figure out a way to break that cycle.

They've done the horrible loss thing for years. They've changed coaches and cities and quarterbacks. And they just need to change the culture of failure. That is my advice to them. Stop failing. There is a good team trapped inside that cycle of failure, though. Yeah. Yes, but I mean, I just, I don't know if, I don't know how much talent they need in order to overcome it.

Because it's apparently not enough at this point. It is apparently not enough. I'll tell you what, wait until that stadium opens and there's 28,000 people in that stadium. It's going to be even worse, it's going to even more depressing. So there's that. Listen, I hope the chargers are great because I think that Justin Herbert is an electric quarterback.

I think that Joey Bosa is one of the best players in football, full stop. I just think that there's so much there. I want to see them be great. I want to see them be super successful. I wish the city of Los Angeles well. I hope they have two great football teams forever. I just don't see it happening.

Kelly, who's your second team? So my second team, I feel equally as weird saying it, but the Cowboys, I think, have a chance to be good. And it starts with the offense, obviously, which could be elite next year. You know, there's so many things that have happened to this offense throughout the season. Obviously, Dak Prescott getting hurt was the biggest thing. But also the offensive line has disintegrated.

They've lost guys to injuries. And it's just not the same offense that we saw early in the year at all. And so... You know, I don't know exactly what the answer is with the defense. It's been a defense that has talented players. They just haven't been able to put any of it together kind of over to both of the last two seasons. And so I don't know if they're going to make a big change. But just from a big, like a high level point of view, defense tends to be less like consistent year over year.

Offense is more consistent, more reliable. I think this could be an elite offense again next year. And hey, maybe the defense finally takes that turn and this, or at least just becomes league average. And then this team, to me, would look like a potential playoff team. And especially in a division that I think still next year is just going to be kind of up in the air. So, yeah, I'm going with the Cowboys, mostly just because I really believe in DAC. And I'm assuming DAC is going to be back in this exercise. And he'll be the starter in that offense is going to be really good.

Score a ton of points. And they'll be probably like a little bit of a high variance team. But I still think they can win a lot of games. If you want to see something amazing, it's over now, but it was an amazing time in NFL history is looking through the passing yardage leaders and seeing how many starting quarterbacks were still below Dak Prescott like two weeks ago in passing. I know, right? Yeah.

It was unbelievable. How many yards Dak Prescott accumulated in like five weeks. I've never, we will never say anything like that. What is that type of chart where the different, you see the different numbers go up at the same time and they race? like they'll do it for athletes' career earnings and stuff. And you'll see Tiger Woods like rise and fall and whatever. They should do that for that.

So I'm just kind of bummer. Nora, did you consider listing the Cowboys here? Yeah. Yeah. Briefly. I didn't give them strong consideration, mostly because there's just a lot of uncertainty with

a lot of uncertainty, And unfortunately, the certainty is that Mike McCarthy is going to be back. That's the certainty right now, is that the coach is coming back. Excellent. Great building block there, Jerry. By the way, Jerry Jones has got on a media tour over the last like 24, 48 hours to just be so offended at the very idea that they could switch coaches. And I've found that a source of entertainment, mostly because Jerry Jones is just funny.

But the thing with the Cowboys is, yes, there's totally a path where that could all fall into place and they improve a ton next year. But you are relying on the thing that you are relying on is that Dax good, Dax there, that offense gets totally back up to speed. And the rest of it is what that unit would have to overcome, right? The play calling, the coaching, the defense. And so the thing that's going to make. them good is the thing where we're like, yeah, okay, well, if it, if it turns out well, then they could improve a lot. But there is so much up in the air there that I didn't feel comfortable choosing it. So both of my, both of my considerations were already named. I chose the Cowboys and

the Panthers. There are a couple of teams that are going to get better next year. And, you know, one of the one team that really disappoints me is the Bengals because I thought that they had a real chance to be decent next year and now Joe Burrow is going to, you know, that that's a year-long injury. And obviously, it's, it's more than just the ACL. So they're off my list. The Jets are going to get better because they're going to have Trevor Lawrence. That's just something that's going to happen. They're not going to win eight games, but they're not going to go winless next year. I agree with you on the Chargers, I think, but at some point it just becomes, I think that that organizations sometimes need just total tear downs. And I don't know what it is with

the charges right now. I'm just in a different place. The Jaguars have been hyped up a little too much in this podcast the last two weeks. Jeremy Fowler and Jay Glazer have named them as a great job. I agree with that. They're one and 12 this year, but I just, at some point that, you know, they have Justin Fields and they have nice building blocks or whatever. And then, I mean, look, the lions are probably not going to get better in a year. The 49ers, I think, aren't even included in this exercise because they have five wins.

I don't think, did anybody consider putting the Eagles on this last? I think that's I think that's an option that you could consider I don't to me like I mean it's an option to consider if you think they're going to get good which is different matter entirely I don't think they're going to make a big big jump but I mean it just depends on what we see from Hertz this last few these last few games like if he's a revelation and is looking really really good then that would change the conversation or if but if he just kind of middles and we don't really know what we're getting then we're having like a quarterback competition between him and wence next year and it's just

like, I don't know, that doesn't sound like a recipe for like them taking a huge, huge jump. The other team I want to throw out here and forgive me if we already mentioned them, but the Broncos, potentially, I think they're another team. Now, let's dive into this. Let's dive into this. Is this a continuation of what they have now as far as keeping Fangio, keeping Drew Locke and keeping the roster in place? Or do you, can you diagnose changes they're going to make? Let's dive into the Broncos here for a second.

Yeah. My biggest worry is not necessarily the coaching. staff, but just kind of what happens at the quarterback position. And we don't know enough about True lock. I don't think it. I guess right now, like if I had to choose, I would say he's not going to work out. This is, of course, coming off a game where he had four touchdowns and he looked really good. But, you know, his overall, you know, piece of, like his overall play this year does not, to me, like, paint the picture of a guy who's going to be like a long term high level starter or a guy that can elevate a team.

So that's the big question. but I mean just if you look at the guys they have on defense, you know, they're going to get Vaughn Miller back. They have some really, really talented up-and-coming young skill players. I think they can build an explosive dynamic offense with. So those are kind of some of the factors. I'm kind of bringing together if maybe they make a change at quarterback or maybe Locke makes a big leap, you know,

late down the stretch this season and then early next season, that could make a big change with them. I'm just thinking of some of the things that, that you see teams make a big jump, it's always because something happens that you're not quite expecting to happen. Like, this guy got way better than we thought. You know what I mean?

And so I think they have the foundation in place to be one or two guys away from being a good team, if that makes sense. No, totally. It's a great point. And I don't know what's going to happen with the coaching situation. Is Fangio on the hot seat? I think so.

He hasn't lost to the Panthers, but he's definitely. there's definitely some some at least some there's a heating pad on there now let me say this one of the things and that's why i think the charges are so appealing on this list is because it's really just clock management some of just the basic stuff and you don't have to necessarily depend on on people getting much better now i mean Herbert's got guys in his face all the time i just saw a pff step he's leaving the NFL in yards under pressure which i mean i don't know if that's if that's a good thing or a bad thing, although Mahomes is number two and Russell Wilson's number three.

Kind of both. Yeah, but I think that there's just... Good that he can do it. It's bad that he has to. Sure. I mean, he's made some amazing throws with guys in his face this year. So obviously you can have some improvement there. But I just think that with the chargers, there's not a lot you need. You don't need a huge jump from anybody. But that's it. Norah, is there anybody else on the cusp of your list?

Well, so they, I can't honestly say that they were on the cusp because they freak me the heck out, RN, but did anybody give thought to the Houston Texans? I did. Well, I mean, my problem is before this year, I was like, Bill O'Brien sucks, but Deshaun Watson is so good that I think that the Houston Texans might win like eight games. Okay, that was my take. And I even got mad at the fact that they, their Super Bowl odds were below the Broncos. And turns out you shouldn't have bet on either of them.

I wouldn't have bet on anybody, except the Chiefs, or the Ravens, I guess, who I think to win the Super Bowl at that time. Um, anyway, uh, but the, uh, the, I, I, I got burned by thinking Deshawn Watson, uh, could overcome the organizational stink. And that might take a little longer than I thought. Yeah. That's kind of where I ended up too. Was how could you not pick the team with one of the best quarterbacks in football? And then I thought, well, Deshaun Watson is playing like one of the best quarterbacks in football as we speak. And they are very bad. they lost the damn bears the problem is they don't have a lot of tools to make their team better

in the in the offseason right like they're they've traded all their picks away which is like they don't have a first round pick after trading dachan watson away or not de chan watson away i mean that just to me is ridiculous and um don't speak that into existence sorry sorry uh but yeah to me that's the biggest problem is like they don't have a lot of ammo to make the team team significantly more talented during the offseason. So they're going to run into some of the same problems they ran into this year. What if the Texans trade Deshaun Watson to the Broncos and Danny Kelly looks like a genius for predicting something unexpected that allows the Broncos to take advantage of all their skilled position players. Boom. I just accepted that. There we go. We've solved

it all. We got through I think like 30 minutes nobody hyped up the Jets. I'm proud of us. Yeah. No one did the exercise. You get Trevor Lawrence in. You get Eric Biena or whatever. Here we go. No one, no one even attempted it.

I'm really proud of how we acted today. All right. Thanks, guys. Bye, Kevin. Thank you. All right. That's it for us. Thank you to Jeremy, Nora, and Danny for joining me.

Next week, a little bit of a different schedule because of the holidays. On Tuesday, Warren Sharp and Joe House will be here for their excellent gambling show. And then on Wednesday, the 23rd. It's going to be a roundtable. Super, super episode. Myself, Nora Prince Yati, Warren Sharp, and Danny Haifitz from The Ringer Fantasy Show. It's going to be really fun. So catch us then.

This has been The Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network.