The Ringer NFL Show - Stop Blaming Shanahan, Debating the 49ers' and Chiefs' Futures, and Big Coaching News Around the League | Extra Point Taken

Episode Date: February 13, 2024

Sheil and Ben get together to share their final takes from Super Bowl LVIII, including a thorough analysis of Kyle Shanahan’s coaching decisions during the big game and what the future holds for his career. They then dive into some hot coaching news around the league, like Mike Zimmer's hiring as the new Cowboys defensive coordinator and Leslie Frazier's agreement to be the Seahawks' assistant head coach (39:25). They end the pod by debating the success of the Chiefs and the Niners going forward (55:24). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out theringer.com/RG to find out more, or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Sheil Kapadia and Ben Solak Associate Producer: Chris Sutton Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal and Conor Nevins Musical Elements: Devon Renaldo Social: Kiera Givens and Eduardo Ocampo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey there, humanoids. This is David Shoemaker. The pro wrestling world is currently on fire. And so we've got you covered five days a week on the ringer wrestling show. Every Monday and Thursday, hang out with me and Kaz on The Masked Man Show. And this is Peter Rosenberg, the host of Cheap Heat. Join me and my guys, Stack Guy Greg and Dipperstein on Tuesdays and Fridays. We talk wrestling. We have bagel breakdowns, mage interviews, and so much more. And Ben Cruz here. Come kick it with me, Cal and Brian, on Wednesday. Worldwide, where we hit the most interesting headlines and even react to some of mass mans, cheap heats, or even your hottest tics. Don't tap out. Tap in to the Ringer Wrestling Show feed. Now on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And stay Mage, everyone.

Worldwide. Welcome to Extra One. Taking Shield Kapadi here, joined by Ben Solak back from a week at the Super Bowl. We're home. I got snow on the ground outside. We got a snow day here. Yeah, how much you get? I don't know.

Measure it. It looked like a couple inches, I guess. I don't know. Nothing I love more than walking out there with the ruler, putting it down, seeing what we got. My pops was sending me pictures. They got big snow up on Northeast Pierre. It was enough to have a school day canceled. So that's all I know.

But we're back here. We've got takes on both the Super Bowl and the non-to-lism. The off-season's here, baby. We got free agency. We got trades. We got draft. This is the good stuff. Only two fan-based.

really cared about the Super Bowl, all 32. I mean, you're excited about the months ahead. So we're going to get to all of that before we get started, people. Listen, do your pause. Don't do Solac. You don't have to multitask. You can pause. Ringer NFL on YouTube. It doesn't make sense to pause a podcast. It plays in the background. All right. So I am right on this one. All right, go ahead and do it while Solac's talking. I don't want you to miss what I'm saying. You can miss what he's saying. But subscribe to Ringer NFL. on YouTube, that baby's going to be loaded with off-season content. There's already stuff out there.

You can see what we look like as we're podcasting. That's going to be a lot of fun. All right, Benny Soles. You give unbelievable directions. You say pause the podcast. You can open to YouTube. You gave Lindsey Jones and then from Lindsay to me directions on how to leave the stadium after the game and they were terrible.

It made no sense at all. That's wrong. Okay. Are you going to read them? Okay, read them. That is wrong. The first half was excellent. It started with take elevator closest to where we're sitting down to 100.

So where we're sitting, take the elevator closest down to 100 level. Bang. Easy, excellent. Then take a left and stadium exit is on your left. Excellent, great. That works for me, right? So you're out of the stadium now. Okay.

Look for the stadium, right? So you're out of the stadium. Now, to give those who didn't attend the Super Bowl a little color, when you leave the stadium, it's not like a regular stadium. It's the Super Bowl. There's the usual ticket gates. And then there's like several layers of constructed, like, like boundaries and like cues and like fan experience over here and like here's a little billboard.

Talk about excuse. No accountability. America's youth. So go ahead. So I step out of the stadium. I step out of the north exit to the stadium. Once you walk out, make a right and then a left and you're there. Literally the easiest way.

What? So easy. No. So firstly, the north exits from which I exit it, right, take a left and then the stadium makes on your left. There's about 17 doors spanning like 30 yards. So I would you, okay, so I exit here and I take it. Immediately I take it right. I just leave.

So do I have to go to a certain landmark? Here's the next line. Here's the next line. You'll be able to see the hotel. The hotel's a pyramid shield. It's a 104th floor pyramid. I can see it from everywhere. You'll be able to see the hotel.

I couldn't find the bridge for like 15 minutes. And then eventually I found it going way, way, way further left than I initially believed. And then taking a right and then taking a right. and then taking a left and it was there. Take a right and take a left. Luckily, I have third party evidence, and we'll get to football, but I'm not going to let this slide with all I care. I have a slack message I'm looking at from the wonderful Lindsay Jones at 155 a.m.

And I am reading verbatim. Sorry, I didn't check. I should have checked with there if this is on the record, but I'm going to assume she's okay with this. Just got back to the room. Your directions were very helpful. Bam. I got them from.

Two people looked at the directions. One of them, a very competent person, we know Lindsay Jones, said they were very helpful. She got back, no problem. The other person, excuse making, no accountability says the directions were terrible. Listeners, you could judge. Let me send you Shield's directions. They were so helpful. Exactly.

And then I got them. So there you go. And halfway through, I was like, this is great. Sheel killed it. Take a right, then take a left and you're there. Listen, I'm sorry. Next time call me, I'll come hold your hand. I'll get a stroller or something and push you around.

So bad. And bring you back to the hotel. Okay. My first take. That felt good. Honestly, I'll do a whole hour arguing about that. All right.

Sorry, go ahead. I love direction. All right. I give excellent direction. You need to get anywhere. You call me. Yeah.

My first take. Please stop blaming Kyle Shanahan for this 49ers loss. I understand that we want to. And notice, I didn't say Kyle Shanahan is blameless. Like, there's absolutely stuff that Shanahan could have done better. in this game. I think that if you took Andy Reid and you took Patrick Homes, you took

Brock Bertie, you took Mitch Wischnowski and to Sean Wharton, there's stuff that they would say they could play better in this game. This was a mistake riddled and an addled game of football. And I understand that Kyle's own one as a coach and he had a lead on the 419, a lead on the Chiefs in 2019 and he blew it. The big lead is the Atlanta Falcons Office of Coordinator and they blew it. And he had a 10-point lead on the Chiefs in this one and they blew it again. Like, I understand all of that. The instinct to say Kyle's team lost a game in which they had a lead, ergo, it's Kyle's fault because they've done this before. I understand that.

But there were seven fumbles in this game. The Chiefs put the ball in the ground five times and the Niners only recovered at once. They got some bad bounces, right? The swing point in this game was a punt bouncing off of a dude's ankle and then dribbling into a one-throw 16-yard drive for the Chiefs to score touchdown even get back into this thing. You had a Steve Spagnolo defensive game plan that was excellent. And Kyle was working around this and he was getting positive drives and he was getting okay, they got their three and outs, but also they're getting down the field. And then you have a Christian McCaffrey fumble when Christian has put the ball in jeopardy at all, you have a drive

that stalls inside of the 10 because your backup right guard has a mental error on a pass protection, right? You have George Kittle in the backfield on the third and four, the Trent McDuffey Blitz that came free where Kittle just doesn't look weak side at all, right? You usually have you have a backup in Burford, you have an excellent player in Kittle, both making errors, mental errors, in protection, right? You have Legerius Sneed versus Debo Samuel,

or excuse me, Tren MacDelphi versus Debo Samuel, Ligerius Sneed versus Brain Naif. You have like your best versus their best and their best be your best, right? Like, there's just so much that went down in this game. I thought Brock Purdy missed some throws. I thought Brock Purdy was late on some throws. I thought that Trey Williams didn't play super well.

I thought that, you know, Fred Warner played excellent, and then didn't play excellent on the one play that matter, the third and seven, the big catcher run of Travis Kelsey. Like, there's just so much that this is a five-quarter game that I understand. I was like, Kyle abandoned the run. I don't think he abandoned the run. I think that the chiefs were structurally taking the run away.

He went and play action pass. He went for like counter runs and kind of misdirection runs. And they just couldn't win the matchups that they needed to win. Okay, Kyle should have been better in pass protection. Like, Kyle should have solved the past protection issues. You're right. But this is always like this is, if you want to run a motion heavy offense, an offense with five on the concept, you're going to lose in protection, right? You always lose

somewhere. We said for two straight weeks, man, this is a bad matchup for Shannon versus Spags. This is not a good matchup. They are motion and condensed. Spags is what he beats. So we said X's and O's wise, this was not a good matchup for him. And then he loses on the X's and O's and it's because he's a bad coach. Sometimes you're going to have a weakness to your offense. There's always a cost of something. Okay, now, like overtime. He should have kicked, you know, kicked the ball and got in a second. Maybe we don't really know that, Right? We're not positive. Like, these are new rules.

There's a lot of debate to it. You and I were debating it in the press box, screaming up to Mike Garrylophone on the third level. Steven's talking about what he does on Madden. We were all trying to figure it out live. Should his team have been more prepared for the overtime concepts? Like, absolutely. Like, to me, like, that's the biggest issue where you go,

okay, Kyle, like, you know, walk your team through the new rules they're going to see in the postseason. That's a big mistake. But to say that Kyle had a bigger hand and the Niners lost than anybody else in a game that ended 25-22 with a blocked extra point and a block 57-yard field goal that still went in. Like, there's just way too much that happened in this game for me to say, like, man, Kyle blew it.

I think that is an oversimplification. I think that is going for, like, the easiest take, like the lowest hanging fruit. I don't think it encapsulates the nature of this game at all. No, I'm not asking you to name names, but you know I always have to add. Like, this is, because I haven't seen this take like all over the place, but you're saying this is a take that is pretty common in the post-game analysis and reaction that she and Ann's getting crushed for this? I've seen a lot of like Niners fans.

Okay. He abandoned the run. And I think that like in 2016, Falcons Patriots, he kind of did. I don't think in this game in which the largest lead that they ever held over the Chiefs was 10 points that you can fairly, like, he abandoned the run. They never led by more than one possession in the second half. I don't know. It's not abandoned. Like it's my home.

You got to try a point up. So I've seen that. I've definitely seen a lot of like. like, man, Shanahan late game management. Like, I had a, I had a big conversation with somebody about, like, you know, they're blood, like, why are they pulling the center in protection and all these protections that they're messing up? It's because they don't have a big menu of protections.

And they weren't even that good at the center pole. Like, they were trying to solve a problem that they knew they would encounter. And, like, they didn't execute it well. And I think the right guard injury was a big part of that, especially late. But in general, like, this is not a team that has a lot of mass protection. They had a couple of max protection reps. You know what happened? Brock dropped back.

felt seven blocking six in the pocket, got a little antsy and left, right? And I don't think this was like a bad Brock game. I do think it was a game that kind of illustrate some of the limitations of having a quarterback like him. The third and five that they failed to convert on the second and five, yes, George Kittle opened for a first down. He can't get rid of the ball.

He's not big enough to get around Nick Bolton. Like there's limits to a quarterback like this. And Kyle brought this guy to the postseason. And so I don't think it's like a, you know, a 1A block. Stephen A. Smith, Kyle Shanahan, blew it. But I definitely think there's like a solid portion of Niners faithful and a solid portion of people who were like, Kyle needed to be better in this game. And could he have been better?

Yes. Did he do his part? Absolutely, in my opinion. He did. And like, it came down to little margins lost by a lot of different players in this one and gained by a lot of different Chiefs players that led to a Chiefs win. But there were so many chances that could have gotten the other way. This was a coin flip game.

We shouldn't be drawing big conclusions out of it like that. I generally agree. And I've been when Kyle Shanahan has screwed up game management stuff. off in the past. I have ripped him for it even in their wins. I don't think he coached a bad game here. Now, I will say, I think if you want to criticize Kyle Shanan, I think the most fair area would not be the game management here. I think it would be the performance of the offense. I mean, you said, yeah, this wasn't a good matchup, but like, that's what you're paid to do, Kyle, is to like, you have two weeks, figure it out if it's not a great matchup, what are you going to

do? And this was the 49ers' third worst offensive performance of the season based on EPA per drive. Now, some of that's missing. Christian McCaffrey fumbles. There's nothing, you know, Kyle Shanahan can do about that. Now, they did have six possessions after halftime and scored one touchdown. And so, like, for as great an offensive coach as Shanahan is, and he had his guys on offense, like, you know, Debo, Ari, Debo was a little bit injured, but you're going to deal with some of that.

He had his, and obviously the guard injury hurts, but still, you would hope for more than that. You know, they had a three-drive sequence, I thought, to start the second half where they went three and out, three and out, three and out. Remember when the home was about interception and they didn't score it? It was like, oh, man, that hurts. They had nine plays for minus two yards. Now, you're always going to have ups and downs throughout the course of a game. But I think if you're a Niners fan and you say, Shanahan has been such a great offensive coach with this group of offensive skill position players, we would hope that we could do better than we did in terms of offensive efficiency than we did in this game. I think that's

fair to say. No, that is. And those three drives, I broke them down for the play sheet. And particularly I broke down the first and tens on those drives Because those are the drives where Kyle came out and said, Okay, you're going to run blitz on every first and 10 I'm going to play action. Or he like, you know, I'm going to make you think I'm running this way And then I'm run that way. And every single time they lost, right?

They blew a protection that led to a Leo Chanel free rusher, Brock has to throw it away, second and 10. On the ensuing one, they went play action. George Carlottis and Chris Jones read it out. And it was the throw to Joan Jennings. That was an eight-yard loss. And then the final one, they did a little misdirection run. And Mike Penel beat Trent Williams, right?

And you're just looking there being like, we need Trent Williams to beat Mike Pinell. Like we need that. We have to be able to win that. And it was a very tough block for Trent like angles-wise. But in general, you're like, you're waiting for IEUK to snap off a route that goes for 15. You're waiting for Trent to win a block. And it just wasn't landing for them.

They were trying to go counter punch. You know, it wasn't working. You can look at those and say, all right, Kyle, this was your change up, right? This was, okay, if they're going to come out and run blitz us, this is how we're going to adjust. And it fell totally and completely flat. That to me is where, uh, Kyle failed, right? That's where, okay, like, they're giving new run blitz on first down.

They're adding guys to the cuts. They're taking away the run. You could have seen this coming. Play action pass is going to be your solution here. Why can't we get guys open? And, like, Chris Conley for 18 yards. That was spread, actually. But Ray Ray MacLeod for 19 yards.

Like, they had some chunk plays, but it's Conley and Ray, Ray. Like, you want to be figuring out how to get Debo and Ayuk open on these. And, man, like, McDuffie and freaking Legerius Sneed, Mike Edwards, Justin Reed, do the way that they passed off routes. This was film nerd. like, you know, what film? Just, oh, look at the chemistry, the adjustment, man. They were, the chief secondaire was lights out in this one.

Yeah, even for what I said, I tend to, and I haven't gone through all the film, but I tend to give Spags more credit than I do. Shanahan wasn't good enough. That's a great way of putting it. Yeah. So it's like, there are times where you say, but I mean, sometimes, yeah, the other team gets you. And I think Spags did that in this game.

Now, I have two actually 49ers sort of Shanahan-related tastes. one of them's big picture that I was going to lead with, but I think I'm going to lead with the other one. Can I just say real quick, the way that you've got me Pavlovian dog trained where I go on one of those big rants and I can see you just kind of nodding and like listening, and then I'm just waiting for the, like,

there's always a pregnant pause, and then you do one or two things. You say, I completely disagree. Or I generally agree. You never completely agree, by the way. That would make for a terrible show and that's not going to happen. So yeah.

Yeah, exactly. And it would make me feel too good also. It would be very validating to me. You're not going to let me have that. I just sit here. If I just said a good take and moved on to my next one, yeah, that's not going to have. I just sit here like a young boy hoping he made his dad happy, right? And then his dad goes, I generally agree, son.

And I just like the relief that washes over me. Oh, my goodness, what a feeling. That is unhappy that a son can't follow instructions on a nine-minute walk. All right. My first. I'm going to get to the big picture one later because I want to touch on the one point you made here. And this was one of my takes. there was nothing wrong with the 49ers decision

to take the ball first in overtime. And I'm glad I'm talking about this with you because I was flipping out at the time. I thought I was going to do this alone. I was like, there's no way Shield's not bringing this. I was like, I'm going to let Sheel have the overtime decision as his wheelhouse. This is new game management stuff.

I mean, we haven't had to do it. So this was fun for me. Uncharted waters. And I'm flipping out at the time going, I thought the Chiefs won the toss. Honestly, I thought the Chiefs won the toss. I'm like, wait, they won the toss and they're taking the ball. And then credit to Stephen Ruiz,

who made the point right away, which is the key point. So let's get into this and clarify this once and for all. Because this is one I ask you, it as name names. I mean, I've just seen people ripping the Niners for this. Like, this was the wrong decision. It wasn't. First of all, it's a toss-up decision, which I know you're the person who generally compliments the NFL.

I do not like to do that at all. It's a sign that they got this thing right. Because if it's hard to know whether you should take the ball or not take the ball, and it's 50-50 regardless, then I think that is a good way to do overtime, because you're not giving a team a big advantage just by winning the coin toss. So I like the general rules of the overtime. So the case for going first is very straightforward. And I thought Shanahan explained it well.

And like he's kind of getting ripped for it. I don't know if people didn't understand it. But I thought he explained it well saying you want the ball third in the event that the game is tied after the opening possessions. Like, does that make sense to? That made perfect sense to me. I thought he explained it succinctly and clearly. Do you get that or not? Yeah.

There's one thing you know for certain. when the coin flip lands. And it's that whoever has the ball third, if they score, they win. That's the only thing you know for sure. And so you would say, okay, like, let's go be that team. So I thought, no, he explained that well. There's more to that that goes off like some of the chief's logic, but I'll let you keep going. Okay, yeah.

So if neither team scores, if both teams kick a field goal, if both teams score touchdowns, you get the ball next and you win the game with a field goal. And it's like the old, it's like regular. It's like the old sudden death over time. it's like winning the coin toss. I mean, we know that's a huge advantage. That's why they changed the rules. My friend Mike McRoberts of Championship Analytics was messaging with him on this. And he says, yeah, the team with the ball third, if they get the ball third, would win the game 60 to 65% of the time. I mean, that is a huge, huge advantage. So it's totally rational to say, we want that advantage. And that's why we're going to take the ball first. Now, the case for going second is very different. You know exactly what you need to extend.

the game or win the game. And the big key there is you get to play a four down game. So the chiefs got the ball and like there was no scenario in which they were punning and they knew they could go for it on fourth down. They needed to at a minimum get into field goal range. And obviously they want to score the touchdown there. So that is a huge, huge advantage. Now, analytically speaking, if you take the ball second or if you're going to choose to take the ball second, you really should go for two. Exactly. Yeah. You should go for two. So, so, if the first team scores a touchdown and then you score a touchdown, you should go for two, because generally speaking, a two-point conversion is 50-50. And if you're just kicking the extra

point, you already know, like I just said, you have like a 40% chance to win the game. So that's a, that's a big deal there. Now, Chris Jones told Lindsay Jones after the game that that's what the chiefs were planning on, that they practiced it. I really would have loved to see this play out and see if Andy would have had, because Andy is not the most aggressive coach. I really would have love to see that if it came down to it, if he said, you know what, Howard defense is playing pretty well, maybe we can stop him and get the ball back. I don't want to put it all on the line, the whole Super Bowl with one play here as a two-point conversion. So that would have been really, really interesting. So I just think, you know, again, there's in the past, in the playoffs,

plenty to rip Shanahan on with game management stuff, even in this game. If you want to say, I think the one thing you would criticize him on is the end of half tie at the end of the first half. He could have been using some timeouts and tried to steal a possession there and gotten the offense, the ballback. We know that's generally not how he operates. But this wasn't one of those things. Like this is literally a 50-50 proposition. And his process was fine. He said he talked to analytic staff.

Like he was prepared for this. He wasn't just like, oh, give me the ball. You know, we'll see what hey. Like he said, they had prepared for this. He talked to analytic staffers and it was a reasonable decision. So it's a toss up. It's based on preference. There's actually no right or wrong answer.

Like, this is one where you're, you really aren't going to be able to kill the coach based on what they do because you could do either one and justify it and you could justify it with data or just your rational thinking about what's happening in the football game. So I just wanted to get into that discussion because I feel like there's a lot of wrong stuff out there.

And that's the way I see it. I don't know if you disagree. Now, the point about the chiefs going for two is the point that's critical here, right? Because the value of taking the ball is that you get the ball third. You get the ball on the official sudden death drive. However, if you look at the other sideline

and you think that that coach is going to go for two when he's down seven, then all of a sudden that third drive doesn't exist. There's just no chance. Either you're winning by one, you're losing by one. And so in that moment then, which I think like you can make this case for Kyle, okay, and he's probably going to go for two.

Like that's the way that they, I think that you can look over historical data. I don't know about that. Okay. Maybe, maybe not. When I think of the chiefs of the last five years with Mahomes, I think of them as a heavy go for two. team. Now, they haven't been in the circumstance that much for their down seven, right? Typically,

there's winning games with my home. So maybe, maybe I'm remembering two plays and like, it's complaining in my head. I can't remember where I saw it now, but I don't think that that's backed up by the numbers. Yeah. So let's like, yeah, let's not put it to this exact environment, then let's put it just like a generalized environment. If you look on the other sideline, you think that guy's going to go for two. It makes taking the ball and getting the third drive less valuable. So now that becomes some gamesmanship, right? If you know that, just the most turtle coaches over there on the sideline, right? You're playing Joe Judge.

You're playing Matt Rule. Got to take that ball, brother. You have an edge. Otherwise, you have to start doing some two-point conversion math. Who do you like better on a two-point conversion? You or them, right? And that kind of is what ends up deciding this game. Because whoever scores second has got to be going for two.

There's no doubt that if you score a touchdown second, two-point conversion is the right call. Do you think Shanahan would have gone for two, though? If the Chiefs won the toss and got the ball first and scored a touchdown- If he spoke to an analytic staffer about it, then if I were the staffer making the presentation, my number one note would have been, if we get the ball second, we go for two. And it would have been presenting the idea of never getting to a third drive. That would be against what we, he went for a big fourth down in this game, which, again,

it was a similar scenario to the Lions one and no one, you know, obviously everyone who rips the Lions for that as I tweeted out. They just knew in their gut that it was the right time this time and he got it. Like, yeah, some of you got that. That's why guts are so helpful. because of how they happen out. Yeah, that's another great what if. I really wonder because history would suggest he probably wouldn't have, but he did do it in this game.

He knew he did say in the post game press conference. Like going for that fourth down was also because Mahomes is on the other side. So maybe he would have. Maybe he would have gone for the two point conversion there. But that was interesting. That's, it's fun. Again, I think that it's a good rule for the playoffs for overtime. I don't think Shanahan did anything wrong there.

it obviously just did not work out for him. All right. Yeah. Let's take a break. We'll come back with more takes. I've got what? This is 49ers. This is a little 49ers heavy, I think,

because I've got one more 49er Shanahan take to get off my chest. And then we'll get to some other stuff around the league as well. All right. We are back on extra point take and Solek. Hit us with your second take. What do you got? This Travis Kelsey, Andy Reed thing is a total nothing burger to me. It's a complete.

It doesn't interest me very much. For those who missed it, big, huge catch and run, Miko Harmon, just catch, actually, no run. Miko Hardman, Chiefs get the ball inside of the 10, hand the ball off to Isaiah Pacheco first and goal, and then all of a sudden, Isaiah Pacheco fumbles it away. And after that play, you know, kind of a couple plays later, the cameras in the broadcast had caught on the sideline. Travis Kelsey, real frustrated, real mad at Andy Reed. he is barking at him. He is bellowing at him.

And he gets up in his grill. He gets into his chest, right? And he's got a super big, angry face on. And Andy's just like totally not prepared for it. Nonpluss. They didn't notice it. And Andy gets knocked off balance. He was careening off to the side.

And like another coach grabs Travis Kelsey and whatever. Kelsey was really upset as we kind of found out through the reporting during the game and afterward that he wasn't in on that play. And back up tight of Noah Gray, who was in on that play, was trying to, block the dude, Diomador, Lenore, who end up creating the fumble, right? And so Kelsey's like, yeah, if I were in, you throw me the ball, I would have blocked it, like, whatever. Like, he's like, you know, like this, they fumbled it after a big play.

Like, this is like a big, big deal. After the game, Andy Reid gets asked about this. Travis Kelsey gets asked about this, obviously. And firstly, I thought Andy did a wonderful job of just de-escalating it. Andy was like, listen, come off guard. I was not ready. I, like, you know, Andy stopped one sentence short from being like, if I had time to build a base, right?

if a low center of gravity or activate the defense alignment. His ball would have been on the ground. Yeah. And he wanted to make things very clear. I could, I could absorb that contact if I was ready. All right. That's what Andy really wanted to get across.

But he said, listen, like, Travis is an emotional dude, and Travis gets emotional all the time. And we like it. We live for it. Like Albert Breer wrote a story 24 hours before this, where he was like, Travis Kelsey just gave the greatest pregame speech ever

and multiple sheets players removed in tears. Like, is a heart on the sleeve dude, always has been. Remember, like, earlier in the season, Travis and Andy were getting, the Raiders, Kelsey threw his helmet, and Andy got in his grill, and Andy gave him a little, like, body check,

a little shoulder check, right? Like, these, like, Travis gets very vocally mad on the sideline he has, and Andy deals with it in the way that Andy, who's been a head coach for over two decades, thinks his best, right? The thing is the right way to go about it. we also like

this was the Super Bowl it was Travis Kelsey who's dating Taylor Swift he's the most visible player he's a player that everybody wants to talk about and there's clicks there I understand that

I we had we had 17, 18 weeks of NFL regular season I would say on at least nine of those 18 weeks a player got into it with a coach on the sideline and then they talked about it

on Tuesday and then by Sunday it was like Mac Jones and Bill O'Brien arguing right now like did we get as bad of pictures as like Travis Kelsey with the big beer looking like a Viking

neck vein popping out, ruddy-faced, and Andy Reid's just there, like doesn't notice it's happening. Like, no, like, the photo looks scary. But in general, like, this happens. Edible players are keyed up, man. They are at a 13 out of 10. They are, like, this is war.

This is intensity. This is the Super Bowl. Of course Travis is pissed. They just fumbled the football. So, you guys, and I don't think he meant to knock Andy as far as he did. I don't think Andy meant to get knocked as far as he did. But I don't think it matters much to either one of them.

And that's win or lose. Like, obviously, lose, like, it's a little bit more difficult of a conversation. But oh, Travis, only had one catch in the first half. He had nine in the second half. I don't think that's because he yelled. I think it's because they wanted to get him going and he's their best player.

To me, this is like the sort of thing where it's a story because of the picture. It's a story because of the image, a story because of the moment in the building for them. I don't, I think this is a Tuesday. You know, I don't think this registers very much. I think this is how Travis and Andy's relationship is. Andy made that clear.

Travis said he owes his entire career to Andy. Travis says that he lets me be me. And he works with me on a lot of stuff. And he helps me get through all my emotions. Like he, and he means the world to him. To me, this,

this doesn't register to me. I mean, it's mostly a story because who Travis Kelsey is dating. And it was the Super Bowl and everyone was watching. Yeah. In my opinion, I generally agree. I mean,

you said, you know, nine and 18 weeks. You have a dust up like this. All right, making, players should not be making contact with a coach, you know, especially when the coach is like not looking there.

I think Travis Kelsey would say, that's over the line. I think most NFL players would say, man, yeah, I would not do that with my coach. So if you want to make that argument, that's fine. It's still like I don't get.

Like I'm surprised we're, you know, like, we wouldn't generally be talking about this. I think you're right on a Tuesday podcast. I mean, you see it all the time. And the history is so important there. It's like these guys have a history of 12 years. Like, like, you know, Andy, Andy Reid has known Travis Kelsey for a long, long time. And they have had all sorts of things behind the scenes that we never see that they've had to deal with. and their relationship is obviously very, very strong.

I would say Andy Reid, maybe his best attribute is his relationship with players because he does a great job of walking that line of, I support you, I'm here for you, but I'm not a pushover. Like you screw up and like, I'm going to hold you accountable for that. Like that, he's been doing that for a long, long, from his early days as the Philadelphia Eagles head coach when no one knew who he was. And it's only like I remember Eagles would let so many guys go in free agency during that era and they would be so mad at management during that stretch, but you could never get

them to say anything bad about Andy Reid. They were just like, no, no. Yeah, like he was, you know, the guy they wanted to play for him. So yeah, I generally, I agree with you. I, again, I think the reason why it's gotten blown up is because, you know, Travis Kelsey is like a new level of famous now since he started dating Taylor Swift compared, excuse me, compared to where he was a year ago, or six months ago. And so everybody feels like they have to have an opinion. They have to have a take about it. But, man, Kelsey, the last two games here, it's like this is, I feel like we don't talk

about him as a player probably enough because of all this other stuff. But the run he went on here in the AFC championship against the Ravens and the second half of the Super Bowl. I mean, I love that stat about the speed he got to. But I say, the literal run he went on. He almost hit 20 miles per hour. I mean, the fat, what was it? The fastest he's run in seven years or something.

It's like, you could tell on his face, like, I almost thought he wanted to win so bad. Like, he wanted to win a Super Bowl and say, like, I'm good. You know, I'm retiring here, although he said over and over again that he's going to come back and play. But you could tell how much he wanted it and how well he played. I mean, this was an offense where they were just been funneling targets to Travis Kelsey and Rashi Rice here. The last, uh, Rashi Rice, right? Yeah, why did that feel weird coming out of my mouth? I'm like, did I get his name wrong?

Listen, it was a long week. So, yeah, so I agree with you that it's not that big of a deal. And you have these intense moments on the sideline all the time against hyper-competitive people. And as long as that trust is there and that's been established, again, for over a decade, that it's really not that big of a deal. All right. Number two for me. So like, this is good. I feel like this fits now, now that you mentioned Andy Reid.

All right. I want to know what you think about this take. Because I don't know if it's a fully baked take or whether it's a take that I'm still kind of workshopping and trying to figure out whether it makes sense or not. So here it is. Kyle Shanahan is Eagles era Andy Reed. So I was looking at these two men after the Super Bowl. And I was listening to Andy Reid, okay, talking up there, just won his third Super Bowl. And I was like, is he a different person than the guy who coached the Eagles for the first 14 years of his career? I mean, that stretch he had 2000 to 2004, his team's won 11 more or more games every season.

They lost in the conference championship four times in 14 years. They lost the Super Bowl once. He was in this spot where he was widely considered one of the best coaches in the NFL, but he was also talked about as a guy, well, he can't quite get over the hump. And I don't think he's a different guy. I don't think he's a different coach. I don't think now that he has three titles, he figured something. out and he's different than he was back then. Now he's considered an all-time great. Then I started

to think about Kyle Shanahan and oh man, Kyle Shanahan looked sad and depressed and trying to process just minutes after. I mean, it's the minutes after a game. You have to go out there and answer all these questions. Last five seasons for Kyle Shanahan, two NFC championship losses, two Super Bowl losses. Like Reid back then, Shanahan considered one of the NFL's best coaches. I mean, if Shanahan's available on the open market, teams are going to come. They're going to be big. hitting and everyone's going to want this guy, but he still doesn't have a ring to show for it. And these runs in the NFL, and I think we got into this last week. We had a good conversation on this, but like they generally last like three to five seasons. I mean, you just, you don't

get these extended windows unless you have like Mahomes or Brady basically where you're in it for a long, long period of time. And even then, you know, sometimes you have downstretches within then. So now you look ahead to next year. Only once Ben since 2000 has a Super Bowl loser gotten back to the Super Bowl the next season. It generally does not happen. So this could have been Shanahan's best chance. It could have been his last chance with this specific core, and it still didn't happen. So let's take the comparison a little bit further. What happened to Andy Reid? He bottomed out in Philly. Okay, he was out of ideas by the end of his run in Philly. He was four and 12. He starts over in Casey. They get the best quarterback in the NFL, and now he has

three championships. But Andy Reid coached 20 freaking Andy Reed. The guy we look at now is Hall of Famer, one of the baby five best coached. He coached 20 seasons before he got a championship. Kyle Shanahan has coached seven. I mean, if you're a Niners fan, that's got to be a bit of a like a sobering thought that it's really, really hard to finally get that once. So many things we just talked about it have to go your way in the given year. I mean, in this, This game, if a random punt does not hit Daryl. George Odom? No, Daryl Luter.

Daryl Luter's foot. What are the conversations we're having on this pod? We're talking about Shannon. If Drey Greenlaw doesn't pop his Achilles coming into the game? Yeah. They were so good with Greenlaw on the field. Running onto the field. And so I think Shanahan's going to get one at some point.

I don't know if it's going to be in San Francisco. I don't know if it's going to be with Brock Purdy and Christian McCaffrey and Debo Samuel and George Kittle and this court, I don't know, but I just think he's too good. At some point, he's going to get one. But as Andy Reid's career shows, there could be so many ups and down, so much more pain, so much more heartache before that eventually happens. Obviously, it's not a path to just, hey, go draft the best quarterback in the NFL. That's not going to happen.

I think he gets one eventually, but man, it could be a long time. And I think if you look at the guy on the other sideline, it's a good reminder of that. and I do think there's like a fair cop between these 49ers with Shanahan and those Eagles teams with Andy Reid. I do think like that you've seen these comparisons drop now. I think like, you know, the amount of NFC championship games they appear to and then they only got to a couple Super Bowls. And then did they, you know, win though they didn't. Those Andy like, you know, late 90s and then that early 2000s run where he was getting NFC championships, they couldn't win those games and they got in the Super Bowl, they couldn't win that game.

Like I think that comparison is very apt. The thing I would say for Niners fans is Andy did. didn't do it with the team that he was losing with. Right. And he did it with a different team. And I, and Kyle's got everything he wants there in San Francisco in terms of like John Lynch is his handpicked general manager. And like he's got the weapons that they've accumulated and the way those weapons worked for the offense. They went traded for Christian McCaffrey. George Kill him the fifth round. Depot Samuel. He's our perfect players for his offense.

He has everything he wants. It is hard. I'd say this all the time. It is hard. to get close and keep losing and to keep everything together. It is so challenging to be able to say for like the third, fourth year in a row, we're so close. Just stay the path. Just stay. It's around the next bend. Just keep chopping wood.

Keep believing. It is hard in the lead to do that. Just, you know, we've already got people screenshot and Brandon Iuke's brother on Instagram saying, well, my guy only have three catches in the Super Bowl. He's going to the Raiders. Like, you know, it is just so tough to keep it all. together. And so I, I, we're going to get

into this a little bit later. I strongly believe Kyle Shanahan is going to win a Super Bowl at some point in the relatively near future. He is far too good of a coach for it not to happen. I am less certain that it's in San Francisco. And that's not because of anything that's been leaked or has

happened, anything. It's just that it is really tough. Ask Andy Reed and the Eagles. Ask, ask, ask, nine-year-old Ben and how he felt about Andy Reid. It's just so hard to keep everything to And when you have that switch, when you have that change and you, and you lose a job that you love and you have to relocate, it can also create some more internal self-awareness of kind of who

you are as a coach and what you need to work on. Like, I think that Andy is far from perfect at time management, but I think you certainly got better at time management in Kansas City than he was in Philadelphia. That's Mahomes. I just think that's the quarterback is taking care of most of it. I think Mooms is certainly some of it. I think, like, a lot of what's better about Andy's offense is just Mahomes. But, like, I think he also deserves credit for growing.

And you could say, oh, he would just grow if you stay in Philadelphia, and that might be true. But who knows? You know, when you get fired and get that second chance and kind of change your perspective on life. And so I'm confident Kyle wins one eventually. I just, for San Francisco, you stay the path, stay the way, stay on the trail. It's so hard, but you got to try to do it. I mean, he could coach 15 more years and not have a group that's as good as kiddle. Samuel Ayuk McCaffrey, right? Is that fair to say?

Oh, absolutely. Probably. That's the most likely scenario. Yes, but also he can coach for 15 years and in eight or nine of those years have a group that's good enough to win the Super Bowl with, right? And that's the thing. It's like, you know, it's a margins thing. It's okay. Once you clear this, this bar, there's diminishing returns. Yeah, Eric Armstead had a good, like, quote after the game where he was like 2019. There are different types of Super Bowl losers. And he was like, in 2019, we felt like the young, hungry, like on the rise type team. And without saying it, it was like, this feels different.

You know, like this feels like, oh my gosh. You know, we're like everybody's little old. They sell a lot of good players in their primes who are young enough. But it's just a different type of feeling when you keep climbing, climbing, climbing, get there, doesn't happen. And now you're thinking about I'm showing up in April for OTAs and we're doing this whole freaking thing over again just to get to this point and we have to get the right bounces and we have to get the right injury lock it it wears on you man yeah it is uh it is a lot all right let's take one more break we'll get to our third takes all right third takes what do you got so lack uh now that it's official i think mike zimmer is a great defensive coordinator choice for the dallas cowboys uh you're giving

me a nod i'm worried that you've got this as well no i don't but we talked about this on the last show and i always said i thought he was their their best option to hire so you now it's official. Yeah. So now that it's official, I want to highlight, I think the Mike Zimmer higher is a good hire. And in particular, I think I'm really interested to see what happens

with the Cowboys defense next season. Upcoming, Cowboys right now, personnel-wise, actually in a pretty good spot. Major free agents for them upcoming, Doran's Armstrong, Dante Fowler, Jonathan Hankins, Neville Gallimore, all along the defensive line. All those guys are rotational players.

Dante Fowler follows Dan Quinn, wherever he goes. You don't have to worry about that one. He's leaving. But everybody else, like, okay, like, you can bring back Hankins. He was a viable player to you. Doran's Armstrong got some good reps. You know, okay, whatever.

Linebacker's pretty set. You have Stefan Gilmore and J. Ron Curse in the secondary, Jordan Lewis as well, who are up in a free agency. But again, like, nobody here is like a key foundational player for you. A lot of those guys are set. However, Zimmer's going to come in and present a different defense than the one that Dan Quinn ran. Dan Quinn four down fronts, and we're going to kind of, you know, play one gap,

and we're going to fit from the second level, and we're going to play some man coverage, some cover three. They actually have done a better job under Quinn than his Alameda's like mixing up coverages, but fundamentally they kept losing to the Shanahan offense. And it's because their fronts were too predictable and their coverage checks were too predictable.

They're kind of a play simple, so we can play super fast defense. And for a Kyle Shanahan or a Matt LaFlor or a Bobby Sloick, like just having seen this defense for so long and kind of knowing where the weak points are, how to get you to your bad spots and then beat you there,

This defense was really, really poor over time against the Kyle Shanahan defense, against the Kyle Shanahan offense, excuse me. I want to bring this up, John Owning of PFF. Since Dan Quinn was made the Cowboys DC in 2021 versus Shanahan coached teams, they allowed a 36% success rate. They allowed a positive EPA per play, and they allowed 5.5 yards for play against non-Shanahan coaching. Wait, this is Quinn or Zimmer? Sorry. This is Quinn.

Quinn, okay. since Quinn lower success rate negative EPA per play and fewer yards per play allowed. They were just generally defensively a lot better against non-Shanahanahan teams and then we're against Shanahan teams, right? That's your not graph there.

That's your headline. Mike Zimmer, we didn't see like Prime Zimmer against a lot of Shanahan teams. We kind of saw the end of Zimmer in Minnesota against early Matt LaFlor, Aaron Rogers. We don't have a ton of data. It's good.

Like it implies that Zimmer is good against the Shanahan teams. Structurally, though, like, I'm more convinced that they'll be good because they change their fronts a lot more. Zimmer is just known for being a guy who can blend out of a 4-3

and into a 3-4, and you can get a linebacker on the line and off the line. He can put a linebacker in the A-gab and they will blitz and they will sim pressure. They just do so much more talking about like Spags against Chanahan

here in the Super Bowl to change the picture on that style of offense. I think it's important for the Cowboys to get better against the 49ers. I think when you sit down right now in Dallas and you go, what do we need to do?

High on your answer is, we gotta get better against 49ers. Like, we have to be able to beat that team if we're gonna make it through the NFC and into the post season. So I think overall, like, it's a good, it's a wise approach.

It's a bit of a schematic change because what you do with the front, but you can still play a lot of man coverage on the back. That's what Trayvon Diggs needs. That's what Duran Blan needs. So in the league hooker fits for that. Like, that all makes sense. What's interesting is that Mike Zimmer's defense

is a learning curve, dude. This is a complex unit, all right? A lot of coverage rotations, a lot of match coverages, a lot of putting the guy on the ball, dropping him, and then spin into this area, fire zones. Dan Quinn, man, the presentations are short and brief. All right, get out on the field. Let's run.

Let's play. Let's hit. Mike Zimmer, you've got to learn. Like, this is a complex defense. I would not be surprised if we are doing a nice, big, Dallas screwed up Zimmer, this Dan Quinn. It's the Jonathan Gannon, Sean Desai, Shield Capadia prediction.

where early in the season, by overall numbers, this defense is going to look worse. From a snap to snap basis, from a game to game basis, this defense is not as good as the Dancuin defense where we just put a bunch of really fast big bodies on the field. We ran around, we hit some guys, and it was great. But then they're going to run into the Green Bay Packers, who they got to beat.

They're going to run into the Detroit Lions, who they got to beat. They're going to run into the San Francisco 49ers, who they really, really have to beat. And they're going to be better in those games. And the objective is going to be by November. and by December, think about Todd Monkin and this Ravens offense. Such a shift this was last year. And they weren't incredible throwing the football early, but they got better week over week. By November, by December, against those teams, performing a little bit better, being able to win those, being able to slow those offenses.

And hopefully, by playoff time, Dallas is in a better position defensively to match up against the top teams in the NFC. So I think this is a good hire. I think it makes sense. I think it is logically sound. this is also the year for Michael McCarthy. If it doesn't happen this year, Sianara, it's done. And this Zimmer defense is a learning curve. So there's a big difference for Dallas if they figure this out in October

versus in December. They got to be able to figure this out fast. Really, really important defense to watch. Yeah, I think that's right. He, I feel he gives you a better chance in a one-off playoff situation than Dan Quinn to come up with, like you said. I mean, we're talking about Spags this whole week

and rightfully so. That type of game plan against a really good offense because you're going to run into a really good offense and multiple really good offenses on the way to where you want to go, the NFC championship and the Super Bowl. So it is interesting from the perspective you mentioned, like, this could be a one-year thing. I mean, if the Cowboys don't play well this year, it's like a one-year agreement. And then all of a sudden, they're looking for a new head coach and Mike Zimmer's out there. But I love having Zimmer back in the league like Crotchety, you know, your old theory about

older Jack. He definitely fits the old thing there. He's seen it all. I mean, who knows? he could come out with a scheme that, you know, we're talking about in Thanksgiving, December, like, oh my gosh, look at what this version of Mike Zimmer's defense looks like. So they've obviously got talent.

They've got Parsons. They've got DeMarcus Lawrence. They've got good corners. I think linebacker, they need some help there. And obviously defensive tackle, they need some help there. But it's not like the cupboard is not bare. The coach is paid to do more with less, as we always say. And so they'll make some moves this offseason.

I think if you're a Cowboys fan, like process-wise, outcome-wise, this is great. I mean, this is what you, if you were like, Dan Quinn's going to leave as a head coach, who do you want as your defensive coordinator? I would be like, yes, please sign up for Mike Zimmer any day of the week. And to what you said about, hey, they could struggle early in the season. That's true. The offense should be good enough early in the season where you can weather that. I mean, you're thinking, hey, you should have a top five, top eight offense

with the pieces you have coming back next year where even if the defense isn't completely buttoned up. You should be able to withstand that and you should be okay. So, yeah, defense, NFCE's defensive coordinators. I was thinking that is pretty interesting now. You know, you've got Fangio in Philly. You've got Zimmer in

Dallas. You've got your boy, Shane Bowen, right? Where did he went to the Giants, right? Why am I boy Shane Bowen? Oh, I thought you loved Shane Bowen. Now you don't love Shane Bowen? I like Shane Bowen. I thought it was interesting. As listeners tell me, I say your boy to, you know, everybody. Yeah. Yeah. I just, anytime, anytime I've mentioned a person more than you have, he's my boy.

Just, but they all fall into the same bucket. I would agree with that. Yeah, I think that's fair. So there you go. And of course, Dan Quinn takes over there in D.C. with the commanders. All right. My final take here, I'm going to another NFC team. This is with the caveat that this stuff is very hard to predict.

And this take, like many of mine, could look horrible a year from now. but I love what the Seahawks are doing with this with this coaching staff. Like if you would have put on paper, hey, they're going to move on from Pete Carroll. Here's what it's going to look like on what's today. February 13th, I would have been like, ooh, that is pretty interesting. That is a nice group to take me in to the next era of Seahawks football. So we've talked about Mike McDonald. I think we both like that higher quite a bit.

Again, he could stick. Who knows? But just based on what we've seen so far, that one made a lot of sense. Creative defensive mind has worked under two. great head coach is a guy who you could see yourself sticking with for a long period of time. So that's a win. O.C. Mike McDonald.

Most important hire for a defensive coach is the O.C. He doesn't just bring in some of this guy's, you know, called place, retread, a little outside the box thinking. I don't know that anyone else even interviewed this guy. Ryan Grubb, the O.C. of the Washington Huskies. And then I guess for a couple weeks there, the OC of the O.C. of the Alabama Crimson Tide leaves Alabama. Certainly introduced himself to recruits

as the OC of the Alabama Crimson Tide. We know that. I really like the big swing here. I mean, this is a creative, innovative coach. This is a guy who at Washington the last two years average 487 yards per game, nearly 37 points per game. Will there be an adjustment going from college

to the NFL? Sure. But I love taking the swing on the upside here with Grub. This Seahawks group, they have talent on offense. Like he's not coming in having to be like, who are these guys? Like you have talent at wide receiver. You have a veteran quarterback. O-line is a key here. I think, you know, they had a fantastic O-line at Washington last year in college. I think Grub is bringing his O-line coach with him. So you need to figure that part out. But again, they have two young offensive tackles. It's not like

they've got no talent there. So I really liked that hire with Ryan Grub. Could work out. Might not work out. But he's a guy who would absolutely make sense in my opinion. to take a swing on. And then McDonald brings in Leslie Frasier as an assistant head coach. I love that move as well. You're a first time head coach. You're a young guy. Frasier is like one of the most well-liked and respected assistant coaches in the NFL.

I mean, he will be respected by peers. He will be respected by players. Great guy to bounce ideas off of. Like that's what you need if you're a Mike McDonald. Like Leslie Frazier has seen everything in the NFL. He's not like, listen, they had some bad times, you know, as he's calling defenses with the bills in those playoff games. I'm not saying it was perfect,

but I'm saying in terms of a guy who's not bringing politics or drama into the building, a guy you can trust, a guy first time head coaches always say, oh man, I'm surprised by all the things that come across my desk. I wasn't expecting that.

Well, who's someone who can help you with that? Leslie Frazier, he's been a head coach, he's been a defensive coordinator, he's been in the NFL and had to deal with all kinds of issues at his various stops. So if you're a Seahawks fan, I mean, this is shaping up pretty nicely

from a process standpoint, from head coach, from OC, from the staff that McDonald is putting together where, like, I'm not ready to immediately say they're going to be a bounce back team and in the playoffs next year. I might get there eventually. Let's see what they do in the offseason. But I think it's hard to move on from a Pete Carroll. We know that. It's going to be hard. He's going to be a hard guy to replace. But what I've seen so far, I really, really like what they've done with that coaching staff. What do you think? Yeah. I very much agree. I think that of the guys,

they interviewed for OC. Like I was very interested in the Chip Kelly thing. I wanted to see Chip back in the league, but I think Grub is giving you the same thing where it's like, okay, like innovation creativity.

I think it gives it to more in the passing game, which obviously where your bread is buttered in the NFL. I think the upside is higher because he's been around for less time and so you're going for a high tail, right?

And there's more risk involved, but you're taking a swing on a young coach if you hit, excellent. Now you've got to worry about him getting hired away in a year, but that's the nature of having a defensive head coach.

The Leslie Frazier thing is enormous. All right, it is a very big deal. Mike McDonald, five years ago, was the linebacker's coach for the Baltimore Ravens. Five years ago, Ryan Grubb, was the assistant head coach slash offensive coordinator slash offensive line coach

for Fresno State Bulldogs. Before that, he was the running game coordinator of Fresno State, all right? There are a defensive coordinator. He's Aiden Dirty. He's the defensive line coach previously with the Dallas Cowboys under Dan Quinn. He is a feature

of the player pathway program, the international program. He came from from the UK. Five years ago, he was a defensive quality control coach for the Atlanta Falcons.

Okay, five years ago, none of these guys were running a unit. I mean, Grub was, it was his first year. And he had done it

at season's past. Grub was a little bit older than these guys. He did it at like Sioux Falls, he did South Dakota, to say, Eastern Michigan, whatever. But in general,

is a very inexperienced staff there at the court. You absolutely unequivocally needed a Leslie Frazier to be like, hey, like, you know, this is like,

let's, said things this way. Think about it this way. Oh, I've seen this before, right? You have to Week 7 and D.K. Metcalf is pissed because he's had two, two, and three targets over the last three games. Leslie Frasier helps you deal with that, right? And so I like the grub higher.

I think McDonald is an excellent defensive coach. Dirty is very interesting to me because Dirtye is the defensive line coach of a four-down. We only ever rush with four defense, only ever coached under Dan Quinn for his entire coaching career. And he's being introduced to McDonald, who I would describe as like maybe the antithesis of Dan Quinn. And so like that combination is very interesting to me. There's a lot schematically. I think that's super cool. But you wanted a little bit more of a veteran presence in the room. So Frazier adds to that. I agree. I think they're putting together an

excellent staff. I continue to really like their personnel overall. Like I think that this is a fairly well-built team. They got a lot of phrasy stuff to figure out. They're going to lose some guys in the interior, Leonard Williams and Damien Lewis, Noah Fan. They got, they got their bodies to figure out. They have corner rotation that's been weird, wide receiver target distribution. What's Tyler Locket got left. How much is Jackson and the Jigba being used? There's a ton of questions. But the Seahawks are a Ben Solac-approved team for 2024.

I'm very interested in this group. Ben, listen, early, early buzz has a potential team of extra point taken for 2024. I don't think their odds are going to be very good. Huge. I was looking at, I mean, I was looking out in the here. Let me bring it up. Teams that have worse Super Bowl odds than the Seahawks, the Steelers, the Broncos, the commanders, the Patriots, the Titans, the Giants, and the Panthers.

Seven teams have worse Super Bowl odds than the Seattle Seahawks. Are you surprised by that, right? Yeah. Yeah, that was a little low, I thought. I mean, there are teams above them. Yeah, like the Falcons are above them. You know, that's like a little surprising to me. We'll see.

We'll have plenty of time to talk about all that. But the Seahawks offseason approved by Solek and me. All right, extra point taken. What do you got? All right. Giel, my extra point taken for the week, I have three takes, and I would like for you to rank them. Okay. All right.

Do I need pen and paper? Am I going to be able to remember these? I think you should because they're very short and they're very brief. They're very easy to remember, but you're getting a little old, having eaten your almonds. I have been eating my almonds. People saw me at the 49ers availability last week. It was kind of around lunchtime. And I just brought out the bag, the bag of almonds from the laptop bag and was snacking, like a little small.

Squirrel. Now, are you a roasted almonds man? Are you a spicy, the blue diamond ones? No, these were Trader Joe's. I usually don't get salted. I wanted to try a salted and I enjoy to salt it. Yeah, I tend to go for like any no sodium when I can because I got, I try to keep the salt intake down. I tell you, she'll a blue diamond, honey roasted almond now. Syracia almond. That's a good snack. Okay. Three takes. They're really three predictions. The three universes. And I want you to tell me which one is most likely to happen

and then middle most likely and then least likely to happen. Makes sense? Yes. All right. First prediction. Kyle Shanahan wins a Super Bowl in the next five years.

All right? Now I say Kyle Shanahan. Obviously, we talked about the 49ers and the end of potential, whatever. But Kyle Shannon is the head coach of the team and he wins a Super Bowl in the next five years. Okay.

Number two, the Chiefs do not win a Super Bowl in the next year. three seasons. The reason why I brought this one up is because people obviously did the Tom Brady to Patrick Mahomes comparison for much of this week. Oh, when Brady had won his three Super Bowls, he was 27, Mahomes was 28, three times Super Bowl MVP, whatever. Obviously, very famously, the Patriots won all their Super Bowls and then kind of went on a little bit of a cold run, right? They appeared in only two of the following six. They lost to the Giants in both times,

and then they were out for a couple more years before they started winning again. So second prediction, the Chiefs do not win, didn't say appear, do not win in any of the next three Super Bowls. And the final prediction shield, the final universe, the Chiefs three-pee, the Chiefs win next year. They win the Super Bowl and they win three in a row. Something that they were talking about in the post game, Mahom said the words three-peat. And he said it with no fear, no, no qualification.

He said, that's what we're going to do now. We won that one. We won this one. We figure why not we just keep winning some more, causing some problems. Ever heard of a dynasty? Andy, Andy came up to the press. And before he even took a question, he said, I'm real proud of these guys.

They've really great, play really well. People were talking about dynasty. And he goes, I don't know. I don't have my thesaurus. Andy, it's a dictionary you're thinking of there, Andy. Dictionary is the one that tells you what a dynasty is. You guys, you have to find out. I don't have my thesaurus.

I was like, I'll let you get away with that one, Andy. So, to review, Kyle Shanahan wins at least once who rule in the next five years. The Chiefs do not win any of the next. three Super Bowls or the Kansas City Chiefs three-peat shield, which is most likely, middle, and then least likely to happen. This is hard. I'm looking at these.

Like, normally when you do these, I have strong, I'm just like, I can answer this right away, and I'm struggling a little bit more. I was finagling with the numbers. I was like six years, four years. I was messing around with it,

trying to get it, you know, nicely balanced. Yeah, I do like, okay, so I think that I'm going to start at the least likely. Can I do that? Is that, can I go reverse order? Yeah, please, please, please. I think Chiefs three-pied. I'm putting as least likely

among the three just because it's really hard. You mention it. Those Patriots teams with Brady. I mean, they won in 2004 and then they didn't win again until 2014. Nine seasons in between

for a Brady Belichick team. Now, they're in the mix all kinds of times in there, no doubt about it. But, man, it's just really hard. A lot of things have to go your way. Even this run, like I feel like they're,

you know, as we just said, and, you know, people don't like want to acknowledge this. And I get it. It's kind of like a boring point. But if a random punt doesn't hit Darrell Luter's foot, what are the narratives we're talking about on the show? We're talking about Shanahan. Shanahan finally got, you know, his Super Bowl. Where does he rank among great coaches of the last 20 years?

You know, what do the Chiefs need to do this offseason? The Chiefs had, what, they scored one touchdown on like their first 12 possessions in this game. And that was after the punt. Like, like they only had, I was thinking of this. Last year in the Super Bowl, they had eight possessions in that game. Like, their first eight possessions in this game were terrible. You know, it was just the 49ers couldn't keep the ball out of their hands.

And when you give Mobs enough chances and, like, finally, he's going to do it. But, like, they were not clearly the best team in the NFL this year. I think Chiefs fans can even acknowledge that. They had a great defense and you have the Holmes. You're always going to have a chance. I found that out the hard way. So I'm going to go three Chiefs, three feet as least likely. Do you agree with that or no?

Did you rank these? I do. It's worth remarking. Fandle right now, Chiefs plus 650 to win Super Bowl 2025. That is now, taking implied odds out of a market like this is terrible and like I would need to go through all the calculation and get an actual number plus 650 flat out is implied odds of 13.3%. So that's that that's just, that's, Fandle's telling you there's a 13% chance that Kansas City wins Super Bowl next year. Again, it's lower than that because they got juice out of this market, but there you go, operate off that number. Okay. So the next tour, interesting. Chiefs don't win in the next three years,

or Shanahan does win in the next five years. Woo! All right. So I'm already saying I don't think they're going to three feet. Okay. So I'm really really hard. Now, I have to take that into account still that they could. I'm saying I don't think they will, but they could.

So the next three seasons, could the Chiefs go without winning a Super Bowl? Like it's hard to say yes to that in my head, or I'm like, no, three years. Come on. They're going to get one of those. But I have to remind myself, it's hard to do. is that more likely where is Shanahan in the next five years? There could be a reset next year. Oh, my goodness.

Good podcasting. I just went on a whole rant about how Andy Reid took 20 seasons. I'm going to say the most likely out of those two is that Shanahan did. does win one in the next five. Yeah. I think Shanahan winning one in the next five is more likely than the Chiefs not winning one in the next three.

I don't know if that's right or not. Where did you land on this? I had the exact same order. I had, the most likely thing is that in the next five years, which is the biggest sample of the three, Shanahan wins at least one of them. I think that he has been to the NFC championship game

in four last five years. He's been one of the last four teams remaining very reliably. I think in Brock, he has a better quarterback the next thing I have with Jimmy, which is how he got half of them done. They're going to start having to deal with some talent departing. That's obviously a reality. But I think that they've shown that they can draft well and then they can also develop well. And they have that on their staff.

Steve Wilkes is not D'Amico and it's not Robert Sala. I think that that's a little bit of a disadvantage, but I still expect the Niners to just be the best team in the NFC until being shown otherwise. I have the Chiefs failing to win one of the next three right in the middle. I think that that's decently likely. Like, it's just, it's really hard to win one of the next three Super Bowls. Like, obviously, I just gave Shane to hand five Super Bowls. But, like, every team in the league is going to be aspiring to beat them.

Like, the objective is going to be to knock them off. And it's worth remarking how strong the AFC field is, right? And they went through that field, went through Miami, went through Buffalo and Baltimore, in Buffalo and in Baltimore, the best Super Bowl run, toughest run we've ever seen by DVOA. It took a lot, it took a lot of luck. It took a Stefan Diggs drop. It took fumbles. it took fourth down tries, it took, you know,

mistakes. Like, the AFC is really, really tough. I think that them missing the Super Bowl outright is a lot more likely than people realize. And then absolutely, three Pete is the least likely because it's a, it's a one off. It's a, they have to win the next one.

They're talking about it. They sure would like to. They very well can. I will not be betting against them. No, I will not. I will not be betting against the chiefs as an underdog probably for the rest of my life. I learned that.

So, yeah, those are your little futures. I'm glad that one. That one got you. That was a great one. That one really had my head spinning. I'm like, I'm like, Chiefs don't win. I was like, well, wait, am I thinking Chiefs do win? Okay, I finally got it together.

All right. Now, do you want to thank the listeners? Are you going to get emotional? It's like the official last extra point taken of the 2020 three season. I feel like you're, the Capadias are not good about, like expressing emotion, appreciation, gratitude verbally. You know, we're more of a show me type. Once it starts getting the.

communication, things get very dice. It's a long story for another pot. But I give you a floor. I don't know. You want to anything? Sounds like you're carrying a lot. Yeah, no, there's no doubt about it. It's been, it's been an unbelievable season. Sheel and I are really, really thankful. I can't attest for for Sheel and his experience, but in terms of- No, no, just a test for me, because I don't want to express anything in my own. I can attest for Sheel in his experience. But in terms of people reaching out off of pods and sharing their experience and why they enjoy listening and when they listen and what their favorite segments are. And I mean, it's just been, I've been blown away. The amount of, expats who care so much about the show, they want to make sure they tell us about it. It's,

it really, it's a good feeling in a cheap way because I'm like, oh, yeah, like people like me, but it's also a good feeling in a very real way, in a very substantive way where like, you put a lot into this work, you put yourself out there and sometimes it really, really sucks. And so when people say, like, hey, this matters to me. That matters to me and it matters to Sheila. It validates us and it makes us feel like we do good work. So thank you to everybody who listened. It meant everything to us.

We're going to keep going. Like we have the extra point dual threat taken duo crossover show, which is coming later this week, the clips and full episodes will be up on the ring or YouTube channel, which you can subscribe to while you're listening to a podcast or while the podcast is paused. Either way it works for me. And then we'll be still be going two times a week in the offseason.

and we have free agency coming up, which obviously, Shield Capadia does better than any right or it's ever grace to the earth. We have the draft coming up, which I do decently well, and we'll do pods for Martian and April all the way through that. And then May,

the young Solac will come and I'll step aside for a while. But we've got two times a week episodes coming up for the next couple months. So stay around, enjoy them. Have a great time. But yeah, for everybody who listened throughout the season and enjoyed,

thank you so much. We really appreciate it. I'm like in awe. Incredible. The man, just communicating, communicating emotions and feelings in such a succinct, you know, clear way. You didn't have to love.

Listen, one day I'll get there. Yeah. I tried to tell Shield listeners this week at the Super Bowl how much he means to me and how much I look up to him. And he physically recoiled and moved away from him. I was like, I know. You absolutely did. It was an instinct.

And then you killed the instinct and you went and you came back in. But when I said, I came up to you, I shook your hand. And I was like, Shield, man, I appreciate you so much. You physically took a step back. Listen. You did. There's a lot. I told you. Like, this is what the Capati is still. We let it fester for months, years on end. Then it blows up in some kind of conversation. People start crying. And then you move on from there. So that's how. Every family is different. I appreciate Ben Solac. I appreciate the listeners. It's been a fantastic season going twice a week. All the jokes, all the stuff. I mean, I could make a top 100 list of the stuff. I got really, really, really wrong. Like, big. stop this year, but you know what? That's part of the fun. You say what you're thinking at that

moment in time and then you laugh at yourself later. Everyone who said hello in Vegas. That was fantastic. Nice to meet everyone. There met one listener, saw, you know, getting a little workout and at the Luxor gym. And, you know, guy just, I thought he just needed the machine and he comes up and says, you know, hello, I listen, big Niners fan there. So that was fantastic as well. All right. Sick gym brag. Yeah. Well, listen, we get older. You got to, you know, you got to do a little strength and you got to do a little card.

The heart, the Capadia Heart. That's another thing we could talk about on another episode. But you've got to start early making sure that heart is in good shape. All right. Thank you so. We did directions. We did emotions. We did the gym.

What a show. We did. Yeah. Good times. Thank you to many people, Christopher Sutton, for producing. Great to spend time with him in Vegas. Thank you to Edward. Ocampo, the video production. I mean, all the clips you see, another big addition this year.

Those have been fantastic, loved having those all season long. And of course, Conor Nevins and Arjuna Rom Gopal, the people who decide, you know, whether we should have a show together or not. So, you know, we got to thank them for that as well. All right. Like Solex said, we are doing another four-person show with Nora and Stephen later this week. Be on the lookout for that. Again, Ringer NFL on YouTube. Check that out. All right. Thanks to everyone. Thanks for listening. We will talk to you later this week on extra point date. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Fandwell is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino LLC. Gambling problem. Call 100 gambler or visit fandle.com slash RG in Colorado, Iowa, Kentucky, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Tennessee, Vermont and Virginia.

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