The Ringer NFL Show - Super Bowl Reactions and Offseason Story Lines With Mina Kimes, Ty Law, Ted Nguyen, and Geoff Schwartz | The Ringer NFL Show (Ep. 398)

Episode Date: February 8, 2019

Robert Mays is joined by The Athletic’s Ted Nguyen to break down the Patriots' dominant defensive performance against the Rams and Sean McVay’s future (1:20), before speaking with former NFL cornerback Ty Law on his recent Hall of Fame induction and his experience of playing in a Super Bowl under Bill Belichick (15:15). Later, Mays is joined by former NFL offensive lineman Geoff Schwartz to break down the Patriots' play-calling in the trenches (32:45) and by Mina Kimes to look ahead at the biggest story lines of the offseason (48:30). Host: Robert Mays Guests: Mina Kimes, Ty Law, Ted Nguyen, and Geoff Schwartz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We're going to start by talking to Ted Wynn from the athletic NFL about the Patriots game plan and just how brilliant it was. From there, we're going to talk to Hall of Fame, cornerback Ty Law, about his time with the Patriots and the process of getting elected into the Hall of Fame. From there, we're going to talk to Jeff Schwartz, former NFL offensive lineman who works a whole bunch of places about the Patriots game plan on defense and how their offensive line played, just how impressive this season from them is. And finally, I'm going to chat with Mina Kimes from ESPN about the most pressing topics of this offseason. With that, let's get to the show. I am thrilled to welcome Ted Wynn from the athletic NFL who did an unbelievable breakdown about some of the stuff that the Patriots did in this game schematically. Ted, thank you so

much for doing this. I appreciate it, man. No problem. Is this how it feels to make it to actually actually be on the ringer podcast. That is definitely, I hope to God that is not what it means to make it. But they're selling yourself way too short if this is what you think. But let's get into this because I was so interested in, obviously the Patriots game plan was such a story coming out of the game, but we really couldn't break it down in depth in our Sunday show because there's no way to know in the immediate throws after the game what they did without looking at some of the tape.

So now that we've had a couple days to digest it, the first thing I want to ask you about is just what they did against the Rams running game. Obviously, we've heard about them using a six-man front with one linebacker. So walk me through some of the specifics and some of the aspects of that that you found just kind of most effective and most surprising. Well, I think you probably read some of Warren Sharpe's work that preview to Super Bowl. and he put out a stat that the Patriots were one of the worst, or maybe the worst team in a league at defending a run against 11 personnel.

And a reason for that is because when teams go in 11 personnel, they'll go in their nickel and they'll just have a four-man line. And their interior defensive line doesn't aren't good enough to demand double teams. And that gives them a lot of trouble, especially against outside zone, which Rams run really well. and they've ran some six two in the season and it has success with that. So I think the idea behind running a six-man line

was really so that the Rams' offensive line couldn't double team and get to the second level. And it really worked well because once they couldn't get to the second level, it's really hard to run outside zone. And another reason is when you have two outside edge guys, it's really hard to run boot play, which the Rams is another bread and butter play for the Rams.

And it's really hard to run. their fly sweeps again. And obviously one of the staples of the ramps offense is getting people displaced with the fly motions. But when the interior guys don't have to worry about the fly motions, because there's two edge guys that take care of those fly sweeps, they don't get displaced. And that kind of just takes a lot of the illusion out of the Rams' offense, which they've had a lot of success with.

And that's, the illusion is such a good word because that's what McVeigh always says. And that's all the Rams staff always says. They always say the illusion of complexity. What they're doing is actually very simple, but the illusion of it is complex. And when you take away that illusion, you realize just the simplicity in front of you. And so the fly sweeps, I thought were interesting in a couple different ways because they go into that boot action. And a lot of ways, they'll use those jet sweep motion guys to run short quick patterns into the flat. And that'll be one part of those kind of flood concepts they use with those boot legs.

But with the outside guys we're doing for the Patriots, you could see it on film. They're just knocking the shit out of those guys going into the floor. flat. Like, they just knocked Josh Reynolds, like, completely flat on his back. And it takes it away. And it's little stuff like that, just getting drilled in of every time this, that happens, where this guy's running out into the flat, you were going to knock him on the ground. That's the little tiny genius stuff that the Patriots do that other teams just don't do as well.

No, I absolutely agree. And they had their end, since they had outside edge guys, they had bad noi play one edge, and they had Patrick Chung play the other edge. And they had their true. offensive ends condensed. And instead of having their ends fly up field and play ultra-aggressive, they had them play more of a two-gap technique on the tackles. So the tackles basically told them exactly where to go.

On a fly sweep, the tackles been engaged with them and took a wider pass to try to get outside. So the ends that followed them and put them in a good position to defend the fly-sweep. When it was bootlegs, the offensive tackles blocked away, and that told them those bootlegs So they were able to get inside that slam block and chase golf. So it was just a bunch of little brilliant things that just made the six one front, which they didn't do, you know, the patient didn't do a lot of crazy things of defense. It was just this one front that kind of had an answer for all of the Rams base,

base plays, which is kind of the brilliance of the whole game plan. And when you're running plays, especially outside zone, you talked about getting the second level, but the bubbles within the offense and the defensive line are important. because it allows your uncovered guys to climb to the second level. The difference between covered rules and uncovered rules and blocking for the offensive line are stark. And by having no one essentially be uncovered, you screw with those rules. And McVeigh, his genius the entire all year, was being able to look at the rules associated with defensive football

and use them to his advantage to kind of pull these strings. And that's exactly what the Patriots did. They kind of flipped the whole thing on its head. Yeah, exactly. and, you know, they only had one inside linebacker on a second level, which was Tim Hightowell, I had Dante Hightower. And the idea was that by clogging up the lanes and covering up those offensive linemen that the run is going to muddy up the reed for running back so that Hightower had a chance to pursue from the weak side

and the secondary didn't have to overreact in a run. They could react to run when they saw the running back had the ball for sure and then come up against it. And that's the second part of the game plan, was playing a lot more zone, which limited big plays. And against those condensed formations where it's very difficult to play man coverage, they just totally counter that by just playing zone and just playing outside of those condensed alignment, the stack alignments. So going forward with this a little bit, especially the six-man front stuff, is this an answer to what the Rams are offensively? or is this just a failure for the Rams to adapt in the moment? I mean, if the teams just consistently do this against them moving forward,

is there an answer they could have to say, all right, if you do this, we'll do that. I think that the Eagles, Bears, and Lions started doing some similar stuff, not exactly what the Patriots did. I think Belchuk kind of evolved that their strategy they use in regular season. But it is a formula to counter what McVeigh is doing for sure. and it will give this offense a lot of problems, and it has given this offense a lot of problems.

Especially because since you have a lot of these condensed formation, the way to punish that 6-1 front and that soft defense is with a quick passing game. But you can't have a quick passing game when everybody's so close together because it's hard to get a horizontal stretch. You can't run double slant. You can't run slant flat. The only thing you can really run out of it is a stick game. and the Patriots kind of saw that coming.

So you need a better quick passing game. They're trying to get little better or solid chunks of yardage, like maybe five yards, you know, hitches, that kind of thing. But it's really hard to do that with those condensed formations, which is one of the reasons why the Patriots just play the zone against it because they know they couldn't get a quick passing game out of those formations. And speaking of quick passes, even if it's not the quick game, how we normally describe it,

your dropback game, even quick decision-making. was a huge problem for them in this game. And I think that part of the reason the Patriots understood, they could use so many line games up front, they could be a little bit slower in their past rushes because they were going against a quarterback who doesn't process information very well. When you watch this game and you see how much trouble Jared Goff had

with these various zone concepts, do you see a quarterback that can't improve in these areas? Or do you see a quarterback that just needs a little bit more experience, a little bit more just time? am seeing these sorts of concepts and understanding how to decipher them? Or do you think this is something where he is locked in mentally and this is something to worry about moving forward?

I think it's an issue, but I think that he can improve in this area. I think it looks, I think he's been inconsistent with his anticipation, because there are games where you watch him and you see him anticipating windows and making those

type of throws, especially when Cooper Cup was in the lineup. He trusted Cup and through the ball with anticipation and early before breaks with cup in the lineup, but he just didn't do that with Josh Reynolds. I mean, he started building some chemistry there,

but during the Super Bowl, I mean, you're right, he was just extremely late on throws. There were opportunities for him to hit in certain windows where he just hesitated, and part of it falls on the receivers because they need to slow down a little bit in those void in the

zone, but I was just very surprised that they could not adapt to zone coverage at all. I know that they probably spent a majority of their time at a two-week preparing for the Super Bowl against man coverage. But as a third-year veteran and as the NFL team that's seen it all, you should be able to eventually adapt. And they just couldn't do it throughout the entire Super Bowl. It's he really is, he's not an anticipatory thrower. For the most part, he'll do it every once in a while. But he really does rely on his guys getting open. And when teams are playing so much man like they are in the NFL these days,

that happens with the types of route concepts that the Rams use. But when they're sitting there in zones, and even when they ran cover one, remember the play that got tipped at the line of scrimmage and probably would have been intercepted by McCordy if it hadn't been tipped. That was like a cover one robber where McCordy was down in the box and then backed up.

So even when they were playing man, it just seemed like they had a buzzer robber guy in the middle of the field the entire game because they knew that golf probably was never going to see him in those moments. So again, it just speaks to how brilliant the game plan overall was because they knew the Rams wanted to throw the ball in the middle of the field. And when you're running cover three with a buzz or cover one with a robber and you're having a guy just sit there, you're counteracting everything the Rams want to do offensively.

Yeah, for sure. And there were times where I did, I mean, the Rams don't run a lot of different types of plays. You'll see the same play over and over again, and out of different formations. But that's part of the illusion of complexity. And when you watch how the Patriots brought. in certain zones, it just looked like they knew exactly what was coming. And that's part of what makes the Patriots so good is they're able to find all these tendencies and little things like just how far a receiver split is might tell them exactly

what the play is, and they'll know it. So just with the ramp, they just don't run that many different concepts. And I just think that the Patriots are so good at finding those little tendencies, they just knew exactly what was coming. So what do you think about McVeigh going forward? What is your attitude about him moving forward? Have you soured on him after this game or just how they've struggled down the stretch over the second half of the season? Or are you hopeful that this team can kind of find another gear, find some new tricks and be in a potent offense again next year?

I think Big Vey has proven that he is one of the brightest minds in football. Obviously, everybody is trying to get a piece of Big Vey and his quote quote coaching tree. And this is just a really bad game against him. one of the best defensive coaches of all time. And I think that he's smart enough to take the lessons that we're taught them by Belchick in the Super Bowl. And he's going to build on it and expand that offense a little bit. I mean, he has to be able to find a way to build a quick passing game out of his base formations and kind of vary up his formations a little bit more.

Maybe his offense starts trending towards Kyle Shanahan's a little bit. little bit where they could spread the ball out from under center. One thing I was really surprised about is I don't think they went empty the entire entire Super Bowl. And that would have been a great answer against Belichick 6 to 1, especially on early downs. And it's not like it's so far out of their what they normally do. They went empty a lot during the regular season.

And if they just lined up in their base formation and the Patriots came out in their sixth one and he just shifted out into empty and had Todd Gurrey. really out there against Van Norr or Hightower. That would have been extremely effective. Especially after Chung got hurt. Especially after Chung got hurt. I was shocked that they never tried to take advantage of Hightower in space after Chung got hurt.

It's the one area where he would have struggled against GERley and they didn't do it one time. Watching the game over again yesterday, I'm sitting there like, what were they thinking? It is the one answer that just seems to be so plain and they never, ever did it. It was shocking. That just tells you how completely lost they were, that they didn't go. to the simplest answer to what the Patriots were doing. Yeah, exactly.

And part of it is, I don't know if it's a big game experience where he just froze up, but it just seemed like he just wasn't willing to go empty and take those risks. Maybe he just didn't trust off in that situation to make the right decision, because when you go to empty, you're putting a lot of trust in your quarterback to read the blitz and get rid of the ball quickly. But that was just one thing that was really shocking to me, because it's not so far outside of what he normally does because they've done that during the regular season. And it was an optimal time to use those empty sets, and they just didn't do it at all.

I'm with you. We're on the same page here with pretty much all this. Ted, thank you so much for doing this. Please go read Ted's recap of the entire game and just really the nitty-gritty of all of this. It's much better than any way I could ever explain it. So thank you very much for the time, man. No problem. Thanks for having me on.

Thanks. I am now pleased to welcome Hall of Fame cornerback tie lots of the program. How is it hearing that for the first week or so? I'm sure it's been a little bit surreal. It is, man. It's only something that you, I've dreamed about for a long time. You know, you strive to get to this level, this plateau, which is the highest that you can get in football.

And it's a blessing. I still haven't, it hasn't really sunk in yet. Even, you know, I was asked to sign some autographs. And it's natural for me to do Tile Law 24, which I've done for so many years. So, you know, put HOF on there. I'm like, oh, that is right. You know, and, you know, so that's something. I got to get the hang up.

I got to get used to hearing that, but I'm so glad to be in that position. And, you know, it's awesome. I mean, I still haven't, you know, it's still really hasn't sunk in, you know, yet. You know, everyone's telling me Hall of Fame or Hall of Fame. But it's, man, it's surreal, like you said. We'll get into all of that because the Hall of Fame process is always fascinated me. But first and foremost, I wanted to talk to you about something that you're uniquely positioned to analyze because you played in two Super Bowls under Bill.

You were on the team for three. And I feel like so much of the conversation about this week and this game was just the unique game plan, how detailed it was, how specific it was to what they were doing. And we've known this about Belichick and those Patriots teams for the longest time because it started in that 2001 Super Bowl just with how you guys went about beating the Rams, how you approached attacking their offense, all that stuff. So I just wanted to ask you, what is the process of preparing for a Super Bowl under Bill Belichick? What are those two weeks like?

It's a continuation of what we do in the regular season. I think more people put extra emphasis on the Super Bowl, and that's just not how we did it in New England. The game plan is the game plan. I mean, you don't go, I mean, you made it to this point doing it things a certain way. So why change? We're here. You know, so you can't say, oh, because it's a. Super Bowl, we're going to go against the brain, you know, and do something that we're not used to

because that doesn't help anybody. So it's just a continuation of the fine details of each game plan, each team that we're playing. And the one thing that's unique about Coach Belichick, compared to other coaches, every week, we don't even know sometime what we're going to be doing, you know, depending on who we're playing. That's why you have so many interchangeable parts from week to week. So it's not that much different, you know, is what I'm trying to get to and I think people make more of it than what it is.

So that's not surprising to me at all that the process of it is sort of similar. But I'm talking more about timing. So I know when he kind of presented that, the story goes, as least, when he presented that Rams game plan initially, some of the guys were like, oh, really? Because it was a little different

just schematically than what you guys had done, even if the process of implementing it wasn't different. So when did you kind of learn about the details of what you guys were going to do in that game. Does it happen during the off week, or does it happen after you guys get there? Well, actually, when it came to our game plan in 2001, I think the players, especially myself and defensive players, and I think I recall I was the first one to say something, because we had a totally different game plan going into the Rams game when we played.

We was going to play it similar to what we did the first time. And then, you know, I just had to say something. I was like, man, we can't play these guys like that. It was Romeo Cornell. He was putting out the, you know, giving us the game plan, talking about this is what we're going to do. And I had to just stand up and say something. I was like, oh, hell no.

You can't do this. You know? And I was like, let's get up in their faith. Let's challenge them at the line of scrimmage. I mean, they were the greatest show on Turkey. They had a lot of speed, a lot of athleticism. So, in my opinion, the best way that we can be effective is let us play our game and let's play with just brute force.

And that's what we did. And, you know, once I said, I got eyes at Bruce. Otis Smith was like, I'll take Tori Holt, Terrell Buckley. And everybody starts standing up. We start tying in and cheer like a bunch of kids. And then let's go. And guess what, that game playing got scrapped. And we did it that way.

When was that? Was that the week before? Was that the week of? Do you remember the timing on it? Oh, usually when we do the game plan, we start practicing. who you know he's going to play. So the first time they put the game plan out. Gotcha.

Okay. So it was almost two weeks before the game is when the initial conversation started. Yes. Okay. Yes. But you have two weeks before the Super Bowl. And you have a week before the season game. So as you put the game plan out, that's what it is.

And what do you think it says about Belichick and about Romeo and about that staff that they were kind of willing to listen to you guys and willing to be a little bit flexible in that situation? I mean, it says a lot because, I mean, that you trust the player. I don't think, you know, coaches that are as experienced and as smart as they are, they don't have to do anything. But I think if you want to get the best out of your team, you have to listen to the players because we're the guys that's out there on the field playing.

Coach Belichick can't cover nobody. Romeo Cornell attacking nobody, you know what I mean? So that's just the way it is. You know, so you have to listen to the players and I just think that's the smartest thing to do. And they did that. But it also says the type of. of group that we had. We had enough veteran leadership in there,

and like I said, they trusted us. I mean, could a young player go out there and say or ask for the same thing? Probably not, because you don't know enough. But we've been together long enough

as a group, and I know a lot of responsibilities going to fall on the second day just because their office, what it was made up of, and we played them earlier in the season when we had more of a game plan and we backed off of them,

and, you know, they kind of picked us apart. So I didn't want that to have a half And again, this is the biggest game of the year. Yes, we know what's coming now. This is what it is. But let's show them something a little different and let our play do the talking. And that's what we did.

And we gave it all we got. But at the end, we was tired as hell. I don't know about them because they was used to it, but we was tired as hell. I went back and watched that game about two weeks ago. And it was just everything about it was so odd to watch. I mean, just the shoes, the turf shoes and how you guys were playing on AstroTurf, the pads were so big. some of the hits that you guys were laying, you could never do now.

It was just so interesting. It was only 17 years ago, but in a way, it feels so much longer ago than that. I don't know how that feels to you. It feels like yesterday, to be honest with you. Yeah, I'm sure. It just so happened that we're playing, but it just so happens that we were playing the same team, again, that started the dynasty. You know, you got those guys that, you know, I already have, you know,

few Hall of Famers, you know, which Orlando Pace, Kirk Warner, Marshall Falk, and, you know, we finally, after 17 years later, you know, we get a Hall of Favor in there, too, the team that beat them. You know what I mean? So it was about there. Yeah.

But it was amazing, man. And it took me back. But we earned that. We knew we could win. Even though no one else in the world thought that we can go down there and put on that type of performance. But within that locker room, we knew that we could win and we had something for them.

Even when we came out as a team, you know, you know how much. Bickham, we had to do prior to the game because everything is scheduled as far as the TV is concerned. Yeah. We were, yeah,

we were like, well, we just Mr. Crabbbbb and get fined because we're coming out to state. You know,

we wasn't, I mean, so just the whole dynamic, not only do we, we, we changed the game. We changed the game a lot of ways.

And one of you, as you see now, everyone's coming out as a team. Yeah, pretty much everyone since. Yeah. Yeah, we started that. Yep,

I remember. They were talking about, no, we can't, we can't, we can't do it. I said, well, stop us then. Now you're going to stop us? We come down to the team. And so, so everything with that,

we realized the impact that it had, and there's still today, the New England Patriots is playing team ball. How many pro bowlers they have? Two? How many did it? And not in my area. We have two, three, four guys,

everybody else, seven, eight, nine guys in the pro bowl. How do we have this many years of sustained success? and we're only getting one or two guys. That's crazy. That's what I was going to ask you. I was going to say, was there anything about this team, how they were made up or this game plan that you saw on Sunday that kind of reminded you of the teams that you played on?

You know what? They played lights out. I'm so happy because, you know, just, you know, through this whole season, there was always, and rightfully so. I mean, it's hard to, it's easy to get, you know, overshadowed when you got Tom Brady, Ronkowski, Giuliani, and then offense putting up the numbers that they put up year in and a year out.

You kind of get lost in the shuffle. But the game was won, just like with our game, through the defense. Offense wins games, defense wins championships. And this defense played lifestyle, held the Rams to three points in a Super Bowl. We didn't even do that. So I'm just so happy for those guys and just to see the way they played together, even when one of their key calls that defense, Patrick Chung went out,

someone that was stepped right in and the train cat rose. So I'm just so happy for those guys. I mean, you know, I mean, what else could you say, man? This is a defense. It was a hard-fought defense game. And it's finally that they get there just due because they seem to get overlooked all year long.

Anytime something went bad, it was always defense's fault. So I'm glad that they brought it through and brought that six championship home. Also, I want to ask you about the day. before the Super Bowl because I'm always so interested in the Hall of Fame. It matters to me who gets in. It matters to me what positions get in because I know how much it matters to you guys. I've talked to guys about this and some guys, you know, they angle certain parts of their

career because it matters so much to them. So that morning, when you were, first of all, Friday night, how did you sleep? Did you sleep at all? That's not like a damn baby. Okay. It's not, it's nothing that I can control. You try to enjoy and have good. time you get more of the, you know, anxiety and the nervous, you know, that day, but there's

no sense of, you know, dwelling on anything because I've been there before. So this wasn't my first time, you know, this is my third time actually as a finalist, you know, and some guys, you know, they've waited six, seven, eight, nine, ten years. You mean, in Great Lance Juan, I think he waited 14 years. I'm like, oh, goodness. You know what I mean? I couldn't imagine doing it that long, but, you know, it's like, I can't go back out on the field. I can't go out there and get one more season. I can't go out there and get one more interception. It's over. So it's up

for those guys in that room to see fit. And my advocate to make those guys say I'm worthy of such a title as being a Hall of Famer. And, you know, hats off to Ron Borges for going out there and, you know, putting my numbers up against

some of the best and some of the other Hall of Famers of the past. I think Camp Bailey coming in, and everybody, you know, who's pretty much marked him down as being the first ballot, Hall of Fame room. And it was also like I said, also a good friend of mine we played together,

both number 24. And it's just, our numbers are so eerily similar, you know, it's like, how could you put one in without the other? You know, so I think in a sense that outside of my performance,

on the field over the period of time, you know, him being who he was, you put the numbers up against each other. It's like, you know, we're always, you know, I got more, I get more interceptions, you know, like one more interceptions. I got championships.

He has more provosts, you know, but everything else was so similar in numbers. So if you talk about, what is this game about, what is the criteria, is it the numbers, is it the consistency? We all play to get a championship. I got three of those. So how could you deny, you know, something like that, you know, when somebody, yes, may have more Pro Bowls. So we had this whole, you know, thing going around,

a whole similar to Randy Moss and T.O. Yeah. Early similar numbers, but on the defense side of the ball. You know what I mean? Sure. You know, when you look at that and stack it up, you talk about the best that ever played the game. I'm tired with Dionne Sanders as far as interceptions.

You know, I'm tired with A. A.R. Reed, as far as touchdown. You know what I mean? So I'm glad that he was able to put that out down the table because the perception, I think, is Bill Brady, Tom, I'm sorry, Bill Belichick, Tom Brady and everybody else. Sure. Yeah, that's how it's talked about.

Yeah, exactly. So, but when you look at the numbers in the production, you don't get, you can't win Super Bowls and championships to have this much for run without other good players out there in the field. So, you know, it all lined up perfectly. You know, it was my third time in. It was New England's, third time. in the Super Bowl in the row, and it was like icing on the cake as far as me getting the knock.

I knew it was something special, and now we got to go out there and get the win, so I think that was the start of something big because last year, Brian Dockis, he was up again. He was up again. He got the knock, and I didn't. And Philly won. This time, I got the knock in New England one. So, hey, I don't know what it is, but it all worked out how I was supposed to, and I'm just happy that I'm in the position.

go in there, you know, with, you know, my classmates, my friend, you know, I play with Champ. And it's like, you know, he was saying, we're going to go in together. You know, I hope so. That's fantastic. And now we're here. Is there anybody that you covered that you played against that you just can't believe they're not in? Like the one guy, you're like, that guy's a Hall of Famer? I would say, Isaac Bruce.

I mean, Isaac Bruce, even though we're out there on the field, you know, I mean, I ain't trying to be friends. I ain't trying to do none of that. We played him in the Super Bowl, but Isaac Bruce is going to make you work. He was consistent over a very long period of time, and I think he's been a finalist for the last few years. You know, he had, of course,

Randy Moshe's a little long jam there, but when you put Isaac Bruce numbers up, and he has the hardware, which when is that going to account for what's supposed to account for because when, you know, on the outside looking in, and before I was considered

a Hall of Famer myself when I was still playing. It was about how did you, do you got some hardware? Do you have a rent? Was you a key component of that of that championship team? And I was a boost was all that.

So he got 15,000 yards. I think at the time of retirement, he was second and third all time. You know? And he's in the top five as far as receiving yards. He has hardware. T.O. Great receiver.

Randy Moss, great receiver, but none of those guys have a rank. Yeah. You know what I mean? So what else do is Isaac Bruce need to do in order to, you know, accomplish what Ethan out to accomplish and that, you know, get that gold jacket.

So I'm a big advocate of Isaac Bruce, and I think he's very deserving as well. Awesome. Well, that's all I got for you. I sincerely appreciate you taking out the time. This couldn't have worked out better. So thank you so much. And congratulations again.

You deserve it. I can't imagine. Did I say, sure, you guys? Yeah. I know we're talking about the Hall of Fame and all this stuff, but I want to really say, you know,

before this all happened, you guys, I was keeping myself busy, you know, you know, with launch. I got to sit there and plug my, my business.

It's been a long time since I've been playing football, and I really want to put, you know, my business launch, trampoline park, family entertainment out there and say, you can still continue to grow, you know, and just like honing your career as far as football

and become the champion, I'm doing the same thing in business right now with my training park. I have 23 locations open right now. I got 15-1 to development, 65-fold, across the East Coast. Now we're going to the West, so I just want to put that out there. You've got to still keep grabbing. You've got to still work and, you know, launch Travelling Park. We're out here to stay. So I just wanted to put that out there too.

And I thank y'all for letting me add that platform. Sounds good. No worries. We thank you for the time. Thanks a lot, Ty. All right. Appreciate it, brother. Thank you.

All right. See you. All right, before we move on, let's take a quick break. I want to remind everyone that you can listen to the Ringer NFL show and all of our podcasts here on the Ringer podcast network on Spotify. Whether you have a subscription or the free version, you get every episode.

So make sure to check it out and subscribe on Spotify. Now, back to the show. I am now pleased to welcome. former NFL offensive lineman Jeff Schwartz to the program. You can read and hear Jeff all over the place. He broke down so many aspects of the Super Bowl that I find fascinating in the days since the game. And obviously, they're all offensive line and defensive line base. And I feel like it was such a story of the game that I definitely wanted to have him on.

Jeff, how are you doing, man? Oh, fantastic. You know, it doesn't feel like the season's over. It might hit this weekend. But I will tell you, there's that new football. He's starting up this weekend. So we might get a little bit of a football. I am not going to be watching any football this weekend.

I'll be honest with you. If I catch some AAF games, it will be starting next week. But I want to look back. Oh, go ahead. I'm not planning on it, but if it just happens to be on the TV, I won't say no to watch it. That's fair. I can understand that.

All right. So let's jump right into this. I want to talk to you about essentially the Patriots plan on offense and defense up front and what it says about their kind of the way teams construct going forward and the way teams attack some of the offenses in this past happy points happy NFL. So let's start with the Patriots defense, first of all. Obviously, we've discussed this a lot. They blitzed a lot. There's a lot of twists and stunts. So here's my question to you just right off the bat. If the Patriots are getting so much success out of this twisting game and all these

line games that happened again in the Super Bowl, it happened the AFC championship game, why aren't more teams going to implement this type of scheme in the future and kind of issue very expensive pass rushers in favor of interchangeable guys that are just really good at timing and understanding how to get back and forth along the line, even if they aren't necessarily hugely explosive athletes. Well, I kind of think you mentioned it right there is the versatility of having a Kyle Van Nuoy and a high tower and then, you know, Pat Chung in the box is not really blitzing, but, you know, he just kind of hang around the box to be able to have some of these, and teams just aren't built

like that. So you have a different defense. You're just not going to have as many of these walk around kind of linebacker types. And look, people say, well, 4-3 and 3-4 are sort of same now because of all the nickel. Yes, but the difference is the body structures, the body types of 4-3 linebackers are not of pass rushers. Probably like 3-4 linebackers are. They kind of are more versatile at what they can do. So you have to have linebackers that can do all these things.

And then also, when they rush the pass, they have to be able to drop back in comfort and be able to cover guys or be in a man. covers, we do a multitude of the things, and I think that there's just not a lot of linebackers like that that can do that. I think we're seeing now because of, you know, the way colleges, we're seeing more lappers coming out in the draft that can do more of this. But I think it's rare to find all the guys that can do all these things that are required to be this multiple in defense. And that's why watching Hightower during that game was so just incredible because of all the different stuff that he did. I mean, there was the one third down pressure he had down near the goal line

where he just put his hand in Rob Havenstein's chest and just walked him back into the quarterback. And for that, for that to be able to happen against, I've sat next to Rob Havenstine, that's a big man. And for that to happen with a guy who's your middle linebacker is just remarkable.

Well, I think you underestimate his pass rush ability because he is a middle linebacker. He was able to beat to beat Rob inside and outside. You also think the Rams offensive line, he kind of surprised with the Patriots ability to do some of the things that we saw them do on film. The Patriots were able to really attack. I think that the Rams offensive line kind of took their turns being poor. It was very

surprising because they had a really good offensive line with some really good football players. They played well this season. They played well the previous two playoff games. But for every reason, it just didn't look like they weren't, they weren't prepared for what was about to happen. It was very odd to me. So explain this. So you wrote about this this week, just in the sense that the past sets that a lot of the linemen for the Rams were taking. weren't conducive to stopping those sorts of stunts. And what do you mean by that? Explain that for people who may not be as familiar with the concepts.

Yeah, okay. So, you know, there's many different paths that obviously. I mean, not many. There's three, basically, right? You have a jump set. The jump set's almost like a run block. You're going right at the guy right now. You're being physical.

A lot of it's used on the people to get today. He teaches that. Like, that is his base set is you're going to jump a guy, especially a guard, and you're going to get him right now. But there's a 45 degree set, which is kind of, you know, much of exactly 45 degrees laterally and a little bit back and you know that's more of a three-step draw

maybe a five-step drop falls out quickly you know you've got guys off your bodies you can't really jump them and you want to attack a guy now you want to be aggressive but not uber aggressive like a jump set and a third set to a vertical set and a vertical set it's very hard to master

it's when my brother does really well mid-chorjords the chiefs but it comes in handy when you have when you have twist and I'll tell you why So if you, if a team is running a lot of line games, what they're trying to do, that's what the picture do really well, is they're trying to penetrate with the first guy. So the first guy on the loop penetrates,

and then it creates a situation when the one guy loops over, the line can't switch it off because that defenders in between both guys, or he's caused penetration to where you can't switch it off. Well, if you set vertical, if you set back and you're, as a line, the inside three guys are setting at the same depth,

well, you can't cause penetration because, A, you've created distance now the snap of the ball when you step vertically to recover for any moves and allows you to see what's happening, all three really, any of the five guys, to see what's happening, you're able to protect yourself,

and you're able to pass the games off easier if you take those vertical sets. Well, the Rams offensive line doesn't really ever do that. And they were setting way too flat the entire game, and they were allowed themselves to get picked the entire game. Now, part of it was the Patriots attacked their center, John Sullivan,

and really made him block laterally a lot more than he probably had seen all season. And they attacked Blythe and all those guys. But still, the Rams just took poor sets. And what was surprising is I watched them do it well. I put video up of them doing it well from the game. And so that's what so surprising to me is you knew they were doing this. It was no surprise. I know that the Patriots, and they do get credit for this and they should,

I think it's fantastic. You know, they're very multiple what they do. a week, but the playoffs, they've been the same team. They run the football, and they had twisted up front. You know, they off the line of which is their weakness. They attacked, you know, the Chiefs Interior of three, and they attacked, you know, the center-right guard for the Rams. And that's what happened.

And I was just, I was surprised because they know better. I mean, Whitworth, I thought, played games and he took some good sets. I mean, he's been around, obviously, but active will look like preparation by the Rams. Where does, where do twists leave you vulnerable? like why don't more teams do it outside of not having the personnel? Are there aspects of that kind of system and that kind of scheme

that can get you gashed in other spots? Well, you know, if you run the ball, like let's say it's second and eight and you run a line game and you run the ball. I mean, you can definitely create issues

where there's no one in a gap, obviously. That's what I thought. But they take longer to happen. But they also take longer to happen. If you're a three step drive, if you're putting a quarterback, like Tom Brady who throws the ball quickly, the best way is just to have Aaron Donald beat, you know,

beat your guard one-on-one. There's no, they take long, and that's why they happen to, but they take, you know, the penetration has got to penetrate, but also they have to do it right. He has to be a little self-lifted, and be able to kind of give himself up for his buddy.

And then if you're doing it, like if you're running a TEE to tackle, to tackle first to end around, but the end up thinking three steps. It's all the way around. That's why I don't think teams do it. as much as people would assume that they should is because of those reasons.

They take a while, first of all. If they do run the ball, you could have issues. But most third and long as you see, but if you have a good edge rusher, you're not going to ever really have them in a twist game, because why would you? You'd have them rush the passers. So part of it is dictated with just how good of your rushes.

And the reason to do England has to do this so much is they don't have really a guy that if you, line, you know, maybe Trey Flowers up 60 snaps a game, how many is he being the right tackle? I don't know many. So that's why you, you know, the Patriots have relied on these twist games to get home. Yeah, and that's, I think the Trey Flowers thing is really relevant because what it's going to happen with him in free agency is fascinating because they're probably going to let him go because the Patriots have never paid past rushers because they believe in their ability to manufacture a rush when they need to. And that's always how it's been. I mean, they'd let

Chandler Jones go. They've never spent big on a past russer in free agents. see. Every time they bring in a pass rusher that's an outside guy, it's an Adrian Claiborne type or somebody like that or Kyle Van Newey who can do a little bit of both. Yeah, Chris Long. It's never going to be that five-year $80 million contract for somebody

outside the building. And I don't know if they're going to be able to maintain or retain flowers because he's going to get so much money. So it really speaks to their identity on defense and what they think they can do just via a scheme that other teams maybe can't. Yeah, no, I think you're right there. Look, they might end up drafting. We know this

class and maybe not at 32 is going to be as many as, you know, pass-rars, I think he blocked drafts, like 20, 22 defenders going, you know, going in the first 32 picks. So Patriots might be able to get themselves a really good pass rusher in the draft. They still have rivers, right? Was he hurt again this year? Yeah, he has not come along like they thought he was going to. So I wouldn't be surprised if they drafted one.

You know, they drafted Chandler Jones, but you're paying that guy on a rookie contract. For the most part, it's they're not willing to pay the sticker price on a guy when it's time that guy to break the bank. Right. And the question is, too, are they going to pay Trent Brown? He's due money this year. He played really well.

They're going to let him walk. They'll let him walk because Isaiah Wynn's going to come in there and be their left tackle. Correct. So I want to talk about. You know your actor on that. I want to talk about Trent Brown very quickly because I, though we're going to end this conversation between you and I is just a Dante, Dante Scarnacki,

your appreciation hour. Because I, this guy's been in the league forever. He's done an amazing job with these lines and new of forever. The only time when they've really been a serious weakness is a couple of years where he wasn't the offensive line coach. Can you remember an offensive line coach doing a better job with less resources than Dante Scarnacia did this year? You have a left tackle that you traded for essentially nothing that was not supposed to play left tackle and the Patriots did not think he could

play left tackle until he needed to. You have a left guard that Joe Thuny was a third round pick, I believe. You have an undrafted free agent as your center. You have a fourth round pick as your right guard and you have a fifth round pick as your right tackle and you just stonewalled three very good pass rushing teams in the playoffs. I cannot remember a better job by a single position coach than what Skarnack you did this year. I'm looking at other offensive lines. The one guy that comes to mind real cool before we talk about is Howard Mudd in Indianapolis. I mean, those lines and he just got hired again today, I know by the Colts. And looking at the lines now, I mean, you know, a six team that lost a Super Bowl.

no, they beat the Bears. This one they beat the Bears, I think. Their offensive line was not not a bunch of guys that were drafted very high, so that looks like a roster there that, you got the most and you're right, because we've got the NFL, but the Cowboys, obviously, we know, I've been very

good for many years, and this year was a little bit down to the injuries, but, you know, they have three first rounders, plus, look, while Colin's going to be a first rounder, if he didn't have that issue. So that's four first rounders. Then you look at the Colts, right, up and coming off the line, three, first rounders and a second rounder.

You look at the same, right? Ram check, first rounder, Larry Warford, high-valued free agent, Matt's on her second-round draft. Drafted or traded for Jimmy Graham. So, I mean, like, he was also, he was valuable later even beyond the draft. And then Pete's a first-rounder and John Rumsett is

the best left tackle in the NFL, arguably. Yeah. So, so, like, to your point about the Patriots, and what he's done, I didn't think Trent Brown would make it a left-back. I thought he was too big. I was kind of shocked the Patriots I put him there. And even if Isaiah went as healthy,

I still think that he wins that job. I think it probably would have played right tackle. But he gets the most out of his players. Gee, they ran 16 different run plays. Yeah. Now, some of them were sort of the same scheme-ish, but they're really not. I mean, inside zone and outside zone are a different place.

Inside zone weak and outside zone strong are a little bit different. And in a block you have to execute. So they ran 16. There was even two I didn't even put on there. One was like that devil and screwed up. And he basically ran. like a mic lead play instead of leading for the will on like an outside zone or a ball play. I mean, they've had 16 in one game.

That's ridiculous. And people ask me, well, isn't that easy? No one's not easy. You have to practice time now. And you have to, and it's as easy as like, okay, if you have a double team block on the backside of an inside zone versus outside zone, there are much different blocks. The guard has got to be thick on one of them, thin and up on the other one. You're trying to reach. It's so different.

and it was so impressive to see them be able to just bring every single run play that they had ever installed into this game on Sunday. The Rams run three runs, right? Exactly. That's why it's so interesting because it's such a contrast between what the Rams do. The Rams just hammer the stuff that works over and over and over again. And the Patriots did the exact opposite of that, which is so cool to me. But all the Patriots stuff pretty much worked.

They ran the stutter one play. That's a stutter one time and two blew up the backside. And, you know, Andrews had some issues all game kind of on those backboxed, against two on the gap plays. But otherwise, most of them work most of the time. Yeah, it's amazing. The Patriot, the Colts, I just looked this up. The Colts in 2006, Tariq Glenn, left tackle, first round pick.

Left guard was a fourth round pick. Jeff Saturday was undrafted. Right guard was a fifth round pick. Right tackle was a fourth round pick. So very similar. Just the Patriots didn't have the first round pick at left tackle. So it really is just an all-time great job by an all-time great coach. All right, man.

That's all I got for you. I sincerely appreciate the time. You know, I could talk about this shit all day. So thank you very much for comment. Where can people read your stuff? Yeah, so, you know, go to my Twitter's a good spot. It's that, Jeff Schwartz, but also SB Nation Action Network, Nightly Sean Patril of Radio.

I'm on ESPN Radio, too, about Fox Sports Radio. I kind of do it all. So, but my Twitter is really where if you want to find there, and then you can move from there. Yeah, please go read Jeff's breakdown of everything the Patriots did in that game, because it's the best thing you'll read on the subject, and you will learn a lot. So thanks a lot, Jeff, and we'll talk soon, buddy.

All right, take care, bud. All right, see you. And I am so excited to now welcome ESPN's Mina Kimes, the program. You can read her on ESPN.com. Please check out her podcast, the Mina Kimes show with Lenny on the ESPN Podcast Network. Mina, thank you so much for coming. Thank you for having me. I just finished taping around the horn.

And thankfully, for the show, Anthony Davis was not traded. so it didn't drag out very long, and I'm ready to focus back on football. Yeah, that sounds great. I'm very used to how the NBA impedes my professional life, so this is nothing new. So let's get started here. We're just going to talk about kind of the three biggest topics that I feel like will kind of hang over the next couple months as we dig into free agency, the draft, everything.

And as these things often do, I'm going to start focusing on quarterbacks first, because the quarterback carousel and both the teams that we already know need them and the teams that may surprisingly be looking for one or go after one in the next two months, I feel like, is going to dominate the narrative. So what about the quarterback carousel overall do you find most interesting? Are you going to be paying the most attention to here as we hit March and April? Well, what I find most interesting is none of them are awesome in the free agency or the draft is like not a great time looking at the quarterback.

I think Foles is pretty much the centerpiece, right? this off season. I don't know if it'll be the first domino to fall, but he's certainly the most desired guy, which again says something about the market. I have thought for quite some time. And again, this is assuming that the Eagles don't tag him and try to trade him, which I don't think they're going to do. I don't know.

They'd have to have a trade partner in mind already, but I think they're going to let him walk. Jacksonville is the name that everybody seems to be stuck on, and a lot of that is obviously because of Flip, right? John DiFilippo, who's worth it Foles in the past, the fact that they have a couple third-round picks, which is reportedly what Philadelphia wants. It just feels right.

They don't have a ton of cap space, and you got to think he's going to want, you know, a multi-year deal. But I just think he just seems like a Tom Coughlin guy to me, and I think, like, provides, like, the contrast from Bordals that they want probably going into the season. So this is, the Foles thing as always, just the Jags veteran quarterback conversation in general.

I think it's always been complicated by the money. It made more sense to me just for them to go with a rookie just because they're already $4 million over the cap. But you look at some of the moves that can be made for them to shore up some space. So they can cut Marcel Darius and make $10.6 million instantly. So that still leaves them $6 million with $6 million in space. Then you get into other moves. And I think this is going to be a theme of the off season. Yes.

Because teams need quarterbacks and because teams are going to be willing to spend on a lot of veteran quarterbacks that I think may surprisingly be available, we're going to see guys start to lose their jobs that we did not expect. So in the Jaguars scenario, Avery Jones is $4 million with no dead money. Brandon Linder is $4.7 or Carlos Hyde is $4.7 with no dead money. Brandon Linder is $5.5. I think they'll keep him. But Jerry and Parnell is six. So we're going to see these cut start to happen, I think, in order to free up. money for Nick Foles because the Jaguars have learned the lesson.

It doesn't matter how solid you are at these other spots if you don't have a quarterback. And I think that that's going to be something we see over and over again. The Bears and a guy like Kyle Long, there are a lot of other cuts that may shock us just at first mention, but just because of the financial realities of these teams needing quarterbacks and trying to push their limits, I think a lot of guys are going to lose their jobs this year that we did not expect. Yeah. When you look at 2019

Calf Space, we'll talk about all those teams that have a ton of space. None of them need quarterbacks. They're fine. Right? And you see a lot of teams near the bottom that need quarterback. So I think you're right. You're going to see guys getting cut. You're going to see some financial maneuvering. I mean, no team has a worse than Washington right now. Oh, they're in the worst spot.

By far. I feel so bad. Well, I don't because they're Washington. No offense to the fans. It's not about the fans. But I feel bad for Alex Smith. And I feel bad because they're in a terrible situation. I actually, we did like a, you know, Qiby Carousel type thing and tried to figure out who's going where. I gave them Teddy Bridgewater.

He's a fascinating name. Cheapish solution. I actually, I don't know if this is, if I'm comfortable going out on Limp's dance, I think there's a small chance, or at least a chance he stays in New Orleans because it's such a good situation for him. But if not, I would say Washington seems like the team

where they're like, just in that sweet spot, I don't think he's going to get more than 15 million, 16 million or so, and they might be able to, like, move some things around to afford him. So the thing with Teddy Bridgewater, and it's the kind of situation that all of these free agent veteran quarterbacks find themselves in, is how many teams are saying we don't want the guy we currently have? I think that's the most important aspect of this.

So let's think about just the list of potential guys. Wash, or the reports have already come out of Miami that they're probably going to move on from Ryan Tanhill. Amato Sal Garrell reported that. And that's, and that is. And that is not necessarily surprising. I think he was the type of guy where that would have been like, okay, I can see that.

So let's consider the other options on that list. I would say it's Tannahill, Andy Dalton, Derek Carr. So who in that kind of range would shock? Obviously, Eli Manning. You could see the Giants drafting a quarterback even if Eli is the presumptive starter. Who in that tier, in that class of quarterbacks in the league, would you be most shocked if their team either? cut that guy, traded that guy, or drafted someone high in the draft to take that guy's mantle?

I'm curious to see what Denver does. Okay. It doesn't really make sense for them financially to move on at this point, but I know they're not thrilled. Denver, you know, which has such a great record of finding quarterbacks recently. Steller. Jajah, Jada, O'way, throw it. Wonderful. Yeah.

It's so amazing, by the way. like when you look back that every, all those GMs kept their jobs, but that's another. I know, I know. It's just really, like when you really sit back here,

like they all did. Like, what? It's, it's bonkers. I, has that ever, like,

because usually you get at least one or two, but, man, it's crazy. I know. I'm, okay, so two other quarterbacks,

I'd keep an eye on. And again, this also play, you know, we'll see what the teams do with them. Mariotta and Winston, man, like,

Winston, I think kept they're sticking with him in large part because the organization, the front office that drafted him is still there to go, what we were talking about, GMs and I think when GMs bring in a guy, they tend to ride him out.

Even if it's not the right thing to do. That is the GM, I'm most surprised by keeping his job, by the way. I cannot believe Jason Light is still the person running the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Yeah, I mean, the jazz. I mean, we could just go down the list, but those are, so those are, I guess, a couple

guys, I would keep an eye on. You already mentioned Dalton. That's one that I think, you know, could really, that this could be it for him. Aside from that, I think most of the QBs are pretty locked in. On a scale of one to ten, how shocked would you be if the Lions move Matthew Stafford for like three first seven things? Oh, yeah, that one. That's such a good one, man, because, you know, there were like the whispers of a trade and stuff last year. I don't, I just don't, I don't see it. I don't see it either, but if I were them, I'd kind of, I would, I would seriously consider it. I would sit there and be like, let's really be honest with ourselves about the trajectory of our franchise. And if we're doing that, what is this worth?

Because this is, I've talked about this with Kevin so much. I think it's been such a conversation topic just in general about how perilous it is to be paying your quarterback like 18 to $22 million and not have the right guy. And I just feel like we're going to see more and more teams move on quickly from those sorts of contracts and just issue them completely, not even give them out to start with. And I think that is going to start happening right now. And he just seems like the guy to me. I don't think he's a bad player. But if you're Detroit and you're sitting there looking at that deal, you have to think this hamstrings us. I'm just so interested in how those sorts of contracts are going to exist.

I think the line to me is between him and Matt Ryan. I think Matt Ryan is good enough to warn it. I don't think Matthew Stafford is. And I think that's where the line is drawn to me. And maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I consider it. You're right. You're right. Like, Matt Ryan was good this season. It's like those other things that no one's going to, no one talked about, right?

Or I acknowledge that he was actually really good in the offense, you know, should have been good. But I think you're right about the contracts. You know, like, so Russell Wilson's going to get paid and it's going to be insane. But as he should. When I look at some of these contracts on the horizon, I do think you're going to see more of those Jimmy Gropolo style deals where they can get out of them, potentially, because increasingly what we're seeing, when you looked at the quarterbacks that made it to the playoffs this year, okay, the ones who got in,

you saw rookies, and then you saw guys where the team bet on them correctly, you know, your luck, your Wilsons, your Brady's or Brees or whatever. Bet on them early before the explosion happened. And that was the biggest thing,

especially with Luck and Wilson, you look at those deals and it's just like, whatever, it's fine. I'm not, you can be a quarterback, it just has to be the right quarterback. And if you don't,

you're scrubs. root. Okay. And I think, I think you're right. I think we're going to see movement in some of these contracts where teams are going to, they're not going to be as willing to give quarterbacks these mega contracts unless they're 100% positive that he's the guy. So the Garabolo contract is an interesting thing to bring up because the reason that the 49ers could structure the Garoppolo contract that's the way they did is because they had so much cap space over the next couple seasons. They were able to front load this thing in a way we've never seen. So the 49ers in my mind were the most interesting team of free agency last year because they had just this. reserve of cash, and they had a quarterback already. So if we're looking at the teams that have a ton of money right now for next season, which of those is the most worthwhile? Which of those are you going to be watching most closely, I guess is what I'd say. And that group includes the Colts, the Jets, the Browns, the Bills, the Raiders.

I'd say they're top five. So the Raiders is interesting just to see if anyone was willing to sign there, but that's kind of a different story. I'm really fascinated by the Jets. Okay? So when you look at like who's desirable, who's out there, you look at two of the three bees, Bell and Brown, and those are guys that, before, during the season, a lot of us were earmarking for the Jets,

thinking, oh, wow, they're going to do whatever it takes to get weapons around Sam Darnold. They have the cap space. It just makes sense. Then the Jets went out and hired Adam Gates. I don't think Adam Gase wants those guys, because you remember Robert in Miami, he was like, quote, quote, the culture guy. right?

Yep. His whole thing was like kicking guys out who didn't fit the culture. You know, that didn't exactly work out for them. But it makes me sort of dubious the idea that he'd be willing to bring in those two players to New York. I think that Livia and Bell's going to hear crickets. After everything that's happened over the past couple months

that the way we've seen running backs go, guys like Damien Williams being just as good as Kareem was for KC. Todd Gurley being totally quiet down the stretch in the playoffs. It just doesn't seem like we're going to have GMs pay attention to this stuff. It's almost like when you have a guy play really well in the NCAA tournament and how apparent it is and how like right in front of your face it is and how in public it happens influences decision making.

I think that's what's going to happen over the last month of running back usage. It just doesn't seem like any GM around the league worth assault is going to sit there and say, yeah, Levyon Bell was worth giving $12 million a year. I just can't see it happening. Yeah, I mean, I felt that way. before Todd Gurley got paid. Yeah, I did too, but now I just think it's even more so on that side of things. So bad.

Yeah, it's weird because I heard people were mocking Bell or saying that he might go to Indianapolis. And I was like, really? Absolutely not. I mean, what they're doing with their offensive line, you don't really need Levy Aldell, like doesn't really make any sense to me. And so when you look at some of those teams that we've been talking about in the top there, I guess Buffalo maybe, if they move on.

that's something that I think could really help Josh Allen's development. Houston is another team. I'd keep my eye on for him, but I think you're right, Robert. I don't think he's going to get a ton of money. I don't think so either. Houston is another team to throw out there. You look at that number that they have. It's like, oh, that's a lot of money.

They have about $65 million in space. But they have so many of their own free agents. That's the thing with Houston is Clowny is a free agent, Matthews a free agent. So they have just all this stuff where they need to retain a lot of their own talent. So you think, oh, there's a playoff team. They've got all this money to spend. Let's go. But the team where that's really like that, and even to a more pronounced degree, is Indianapolis. I mean, they're sitting there with $109 million in space, and they have none of those in-house guys that

they need to pay. It's not the players that made them a playoff team. It's guys that didn't, they're going to be walking. They are the team to me, and we've said this for a while on this show, that they're the power player. They are the power broker in this season of free agency, just because They have so much money and so much potential. I just cannot wait to see what their moves are. And they have extra picks from the Jets. It's ridiculous. Crazy.

I mean, Chris Ballard, what he's done, the combination of what you're describing and the drafts, obviously, is just remarkable. I think he was the one who came out and said, it wasn't Beller, was it Bell or Brown? One of them he kind of shied away from publicly. I might have been Brown, which is a shame, because God, I'd love to see Andrew Luck with Antonio for him.

I, that's, it sounds so good to me. And that's, I love. Hilton, too, the combination of them would be just so fun. I've said this for a while, and I think that it's the one I want to see in the most that's realistic in my mind. I think Golden Tate with that offense would just be absolutely beautiful. Golden T. Y. Hilton, Andrew Luck. Oh, my gosh.

Yep. That's my number one parent. Totally. And you really saw that in the postseason. Yeah. And even if it's not Golden Tate, there are a lot of reasonable slot options available in this free agency class. Randall Cobb is a free agent.

Cole Beasley is a free agent. Adam Humphreys is a free agent. This has broke extremely well for Indianapolis. They are going to get one of these guys, and they're essentially going to have their pick because they can outspend anybody else that wants them. I was thinking that, watching the Super Bowl, like watching Edelman and how the Rams defense had no answer for him, right?

And how much the Rams missed Cooper Cup? Yes, exactly. And I was thinking, man, like, right now what the past defense is giving them, If they only had an Edelman themselves, they'd be fine. Now, that doesn't mean that's going to, like, change the market for slot receivers or anything like that. But it really, you look at some of these offenses near the top, and you do see, like, if only they had, you know, like a twitchy slack guy who could run option routes like

Edelman, they would just speak. I mean, gosh, with Hilton in particular, that'd be such a nice pairing. It's beautiful. I mean, they had to rely a ton on Dantro Inman down the stretch, a guy they signed off the street. But this is a team that did not have a lot of talent in primetime positions. and now has the money to spend on it. So one of those positions, I would argue, is edge rusher. And this to me, I've tweeted about it this morning,

Evan Silva's list of the best free agents as I'm looking at it right now on rotow world.com. The edge rushing class is just absolutely nuts. You have Demarcus Lawrence, D. Ford, Frank Clark, Ziggy Ansah, Trey Flowers, everything. I do think it's going to be less exciting than it looks right now, based on how these guys are retained. So I'm going to ask you a Seahawks fan.

Do you feel like Frank Clark is going to be franchised and do you think that's indicative of how the market unfolds? Yes. I think you noted about the lack of excitement because I think most of those guys are going to stay on their teams. Yes. You know, when you run down the list, it seems like, and you look at the individual teams

and what they've got in terms of personnel on their cap. I think the Seattle's going to franchise Frank Clark, who's been excellent over the last couple of years or so. And then I think they're going to try to do a long-term deal. I mean, this is one of those things where when you've got a bunch of free agents to the same position hitting the market at the same time, everybody wants to be first. Yes. They won't have to suffer from, you know, clownie or whoever shedding the market.

And I can't imagine Seattle's any different. They've got the cap space to do this and do Wilson as well. I think based on all the language coming out of the organization, based on the lack of success they've had at drafting past rushers and where they're drafting in this current draft, I do think that he's going to be the priority for them. I feel the same way about D. Ford in Kansas City. I just don't think there's any way he gets out of there. They will franchise him this year because they understand their window. They could win a championship right now.

He's not going anywhere. And I think the kind of the challenge with him is to keep him playing for a contract as long as possible. Think about how good he was in the contract year this season. And that's cynical, but you have to think about it. Yes. You have to think about it that way. Lawrence, I cannot see getting out of Dallas. I just think they give him a long-term deal even with the.

DAC contract and the Elliott extension likely looming. I just can't see him leaving. Clowny, if I'm Houston, I let somebody else give him the Kaleel Mac contract that he probably wants. I would never, ever, ever pay him that. Yeah, I'm with you. And Houston, like, that roster just has a lot of holes.

Yes. I think that they need to address. By the way, speaking of free agents, I'm very curious to see what happens with Matthew in the safety market, which obviously cratered last year. I'm curious to see if he gets paid at all.

I really don't know how that's going to shake out. I would prioritize him over Clowny if I were the Texans. Me too. I think he's a rarer person, I guess. And what he was in that, what he was in that locker room is really hard to overstate. I reported an entire story about it

before they lost in the playoffs. And you talk to the guys around that team and they love having him there. I absolutely think he would back their next season. Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. The change in what are, is like in the public persona and like the public perception of Tyron Matthew from what he was at LSU to right now, that just trajectory is amazing to me.

Like, think about how much differently we talk about him now that we talked about him before because you used to be just this exciting persona and now he's just respected veteran leader Tyron Matthew. And I love it. It's cool. Like, it's really, really fun to watch that have. Watching that happened was cool. I really have enjoyed it. He's done so many amazing things for, you know, community in Louisiana.

Absolutely. You know, and Patrick Peterson's been his mentor forever when he went to, I don't know if it was rehab or whatever, but after college, he lived with the Peterson's for a while. And he's just kind of like a really amazing story. I love him. Yeah. I expect they'll keep him. So really, you're thinking, Clownie will probably walk.

We'll see what happens with Preston Smith. I think Flowers is the most fascinating. one of the whole group because I think he's really good. Like he's really good. But that team does not pay pass rushers. They do not pay premiums for pass rushers. And even if he fits them perfectly, I'm just curious what another team will be willing to offer him and how his market will change as a result.

Who is the last pass rusher they paid? They haven't paid one with money. They'll spend on them in terms of draft capital. You know, they've spent a first round pick on Chandler Jones, but they've never paid a premium for one. I would say the last kind of edge guy they gave a huge second contract to was Adelius Thomas.

That's crazy. I mean, every year I say oh, wow, New England, they don't have a lot of talent on that defense. They're going to regress. And then the Super Bowl comes, and Kyle Van Nuoy is the best defensive player in the NFL and they're scheming. Just doesn't fucking matter. Like, I'm not going to really, it doesn't matter. Like, LLL and nothing matter. So I think

you're right. I think Trace Lars is amazing. But it really is about that team and the way they coach defense and I don't know. I just don't think they're going to have a huge contract either. I agree. All right. Mina, that's all I got.

Thank you so much for doing this. This is fun. Anytime, bud. All right, guys. That's all we got for the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer podcast network. We will be back around the combine. So I hope you enjoy your couple week break from us. I'll be honest.

I'm going to enjoy it from you. Looking forward to a long needed break. So thank you so much for listening all season. Can't tell you how much it means to us. We had a ton of fun. Casey feels the same way. We'll be back from Indianapolis here in the end of February. And until then, enjoy the NFL offseason, folks.

Talk to you soon.