The Ringer NFL Show - Superstars in Flux and OTAs | The Ringer NFL Show (Ep. 268)

Episode Date: June 12, 2018

The Ringer's Robert Mays and Kevin Clark discuss the Earl Thomas contract situation in Seattle (05:00), the Rob Gronkowski trade rumors coming out of New England (21:00), and what matters most at OTAs (26:30) before Danny Kelly joins the show to name his most underrated position units (37:00). Credits: Hosted by: Robert Mays, Kevin Clark, and Danny Kelly Produced by: Jim Cunningham and Evan Campbell Brought to you by: The Ringer Podcast Network Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, Robert Mays here. On today's Ringer NFL show, we're chatting about some big names whose statuses are in flux. We're also going to talk about OTAs, which is the last time we will see players before training camp opens in six weeks. Six weeks. I can't believe we're there already. As always, we're brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where there are a ton of great shows for you. This episode of the Recapables Billions is the final one of the third season. Kevin, do you watch Billions?

Are you caught up yet? It is my favorite show on television, but I just got back from a very long trip, so I'm one episode behind. I've not seen the finale that everybody else is talking about. So I just started watching, like last week. I'm eight episodes into the first season. I'm obsessed. And I cannot wait to get to season three. So I can listen to Mallory, Sean Fennessee, and Allison Herman talk about what is supposedly a pretty buzzworthy finale.

Also, please go and listen to our new music podcast on Shuffle posted by Micah Peters. I would tell you to listen to it anyway. But I think this week you really should because I am on it. Yeah. Talking about a big story that I did that I do not want to mention. Oh, I was about to say it. I do not want to mention it quite yet. I mean, I guess we can, but I want to hold up just a second.

Let's not. It's coming out later this week. So please check out on Shuffle and that big story. That's all I'll say. Big story. Also, please go to the ringer.com to check out everything we have going right now. Kevin O'Connor predicted the NBA off season, which, oh my. The stakes are high.

And that's pretty much what KOC is getting into. We have a ton of World Cup coverage. Also, Andrew Gurdarro wrote about Can't Hardly Wait, which is a very important movie to me. You should all go read that. When is your music story going out? Wednesday. I'm fired up.

I really hope so. It's about a topic that I also enjoy. It's a very shared interest of ours. And I don't want to pump up the anticipation too much for less people be disappointed. So before we get too far down that road, let's get to our show. Yeah. To the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer Podcast Network.

I'm Robert Mays. joined again by Kevin Clark, which I'm very excited about. I missed you, buddy. I missed you too. I was in South Africa for three weeks. Yeah, that sounds way better than how I spent my time since I last spoke to you. But, you know, teach his own. I'm very jealous. I hope did you enjoy it? Did you have fun? It was the best thing I've ever done by a wide margin. All of South Africa is just amazing. There's just great cities. And then there's the safari, obviously, which is the best parts are in the northeast of the country. I went to a rugby game.

Robert, do you think you understand the rules of rugby? Oh my God, don't. Okay, so I did. I did think I understood the rules of rugby. This is a different thing between me and you.

I think I'm more willing to just step back and be like, no, I don't get it. No, no, no. So like, you're a more worldly person than me. Like, ten years ago, I, like, played a rugby video game for five minutes,

and I was like, I got this. And every once in a while, sometimes I'd be traveling. Like, I watched the Rugby World Cup from England a couple years ago. So I'm like, I got this. I figure out how people, people score and stuff. And then I went to this game

and I do not know the rules of rugby. They would get to like the one yard line. I'm sure they don't call it that. They would get to the goal line. And then for some reason they would have to back up for five yards but they would make or something like that. It's like when you're playing 21 and you can't hit 13.

Yeah. And then they would make no announcement. There was also very like the crowd doesn't react in the same way American football crowds react. Like if someone's at the one yard line there's not really this anticipation, probably because they don't understand the rules either. And then, but then obviously when they get in, when they get the try, which is the score, there's the same rush as a touchdown in America football.

Rugby's an amazing, I had an amazing time at the rugby game. I'm sure it was great. The athleticism is incredible. You know that John Oliver bit where he was talking about geography and he points out of country? He's like, no, actually, this is that country. You could do the same thing with that and rugby terminology to me that you could just make up 10 words and I would just nod like I knew it was going on. I'd be like, oh, yeah, that, of course, like the flipper flop. and they could half of them would be fake and I would have absolutely no idea.

Yeah, no, it was, it was a hell of an event. I'm a huge Stormers fan now. So one of the reasons that this was a well-time trip for you is because there isn't a lot going on in the football world between the middle of May and the middle of June. It's kind of a dead time and now we're just kind of getting back into it. You couldn't tell. You couldn't tell from back this is an OTA's preview show. OTA preview show.

That's where we're at the calendar. So really stuff is going to pick back up for the first time. This is the initial time we're going to see veterans since the offseason began. The last time we'll see them before training camp. So there's stuff to talk about, but not a ton. So we will get into all of that and more on this show. But first, let's get into some of the things that have been kicking around the news a little bit. Yeah.

One of the hallmarks of this time in the NFL calendar is general discontent for players and their contracts. So there are a couple of guys in that realm. right now that we haven't really talked about. Obviously, we devoted a whole show to Aaron Donald last month. These are a couple other guys that are looking for new deals after they've secured their big one. And those two people, Earl Thomas and Rob Grancowski. I mean, there are rumors flying about both of these guys. Earl Thomas said he will sit out OTAs until he gets a new deal. So we want to talk about not only the current situations, but the outlook for both of these guys

as they move toward the latter half of their career. I feel like there are a lot of similarities of where they both are, both in their standing in the league, their age, when they were drafted, all that stuff, and in a way, the trajectory of their two franchises. Obviously, the Patriots are still a contender where the Seahawks have kind of stepped out of that standing, I guess is what you would say, but you can see kind of the writing on the wall from maybe where this Patriot franchise will go. So it's a curious time for both these players and the teams they're on. Kevin, let's start with Earl Thomas.

What jumps out to you most about just this general situation? Well, it's interesting, you know, Bill Barnall made the point on Twitter yesterday that the Seahawks have a rule of only handing out extensions when there's their one year out from free agency. And Barnel makes the point that Thomas can probably see their writing on the wall in the sense that they're not deep in contract negotiations right now. He sort of realizes what the Seahawks may be doing to him, and so he's being proactive. for me, I think it makes all the sense in the world for him. Obviously, he wants to go to Dallas. He's pretty clearly made that known. I think that, you know, his former position coach, Chris Richard, is now a influential assistant,

maybe even like the shadow fake defensive coordinator, even though Rod Marinelli is still there in Dallas. Well, remember where they did with Monty Kiffin, where they just kept him around? And then they now they're doing with Rod Marinelli, I think. I don't understand why Rod Marinole, I shouldn't have that job. That's still something. If we look at where the Cowboys finished. Is it Chris Richard just like running the defense now? I have no idea.

How things work in that building is beyond me and trying to figure out where those lines are drawn is not something I feel like is a fruitful endeavor. Let's leave that aside for one second. Whatever Chris Richards role is, whether or not he's the shadow defensive coordinator or not. The Shadow League of the Dallas Cowboys. The Shadow, he's secretly running it. Oh, God. The Dick Cheney of the Cowboys' Deals. defense.

So there's so much to be said there that I don't want to get into. Let's continue. So he's the defensive backs coach and passing game coordinator. What's that mean? All of this stuff now, the run game coordinator, the past game coordinator. I don't, isn't just the offensive line coach, the run game coordinator? I don't understand any of this nonsense. I don't know.

Okay. So obviously the Seahawks are, I think Seahawks Twitter has been defensive about the term rebuilding. I don't think they're rebuilding because I also think that it's. When you have a great quarterback like Russell Wilson, who I think the world of, you're going to be able to have some level of competition every year. But there's obviously a huge passing of the torts in Seattle, and I wouldn't blame the Seahawks for trying to get as much value as possible for Earl Thomas to sort of kickstart the, I don't know what you would call it, retooling process.

I'm torn about this. I understand where you're coming from. And I think in a way, the Seahawks are almost in a worse position than a team that's rebuilding. Yeah. Because now you're floating in this nebulous middle ground. Hey, I'd rather have Russell Wilson than not have Russell Wilson. That's totally fair. But again, I think that now you're kind of, you're not rebuilding, but you're also not a contender, which is a rough spot to be in.

It's just not fun. It's hard to understand where you're going and what you want to do as a franchise when that's when you're living in that sort of purgatory. So I understand that you want Earl Thomas. you want all the value you can get as you retool this team. But haven't we figured out based on the performance of this defense with and without Earl Thomas that they're absolute garbage when he doesn't play? Without a doubt. Now with all the players that aren't there would be even worse when he doesn't play.

So that's kind of my problem here is that what are the Seahawks, especially on defense without Earl Thomas? You can argue with the players they have right now with guys like Rashim Green, Machine Green was a rookie, Barquevius Mingo, Nico Thorpe. I mean, all these guys are probably going to have a real chance to be contributors this year. And if Earl Thomas isn't a part of that group and we don't know what Cam Chancellor's future is, this is Bobby Wagner, KJ. Wright, and a whole lot of nothing. And that's problematic to me.

So I know why you'd want to squeeze every bit of value you can get out of him. And I think with a lot of veterans, that's probably the way to think about it. And with the next guy we're going to talk about, maybe that's the way to think about it. But I feel like the Seahawks are in a very unique position in terms of what he adds to that defense. and whether the value you can get for a 29-year-old guy who's been injured a couple times is worth it or not. I think that I've said this when Earl Thomas was in his prime

and he came off the field. You think that prime is over them? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe he still is. I don't know. But what I do know is that when he came out of a game

in 2016 and 2017, with the exception of quarterback, I don't remember a team. team flailing as hard as when the Seahawks lost Earl Thomas. Correct. I totally agree. I mean, it was like an entirely different team. It looked like they'd never played football before for some of those plays. It looked like he was running everything.

I mean, you know, Chris Richard, I guess, was a defensive coordinator of the Seahawks. I think Earl Thomas may have been, you know, I mean, it was that sort of force where he looked like he was keeping the whole thing together. And I think that, you know, it's hard. for me to say whether or not he's still in his prime. It is so hard for a guy like that. I mean, especially in the offseason, I don't know. I haven't seen him play in six months.

We don't know what he looks like this fall. I think that he still has, you know, safeties don't age out. They're not running backs. You know, 29 is not a death sentence for Earl Thomas. He still could have a prime of two or three more years, don't you agree? Yeah. I mean, look at guys that played for a while.

Eric Weddell's up there in age. He's not the player he was. He was very good last year, but he was very good two years ago. He was solid last year. Eric Wettle was never as good as Earl Thomas. No, I think he was in the same vein, but I think Earl Thomas was the best safety in the league when he was at his peak. Yes.

I mean, Earl Thomas was one of the best players in the league. Agreed. Yes. I totally agree with that. So I think that, yeah, Earl Thomas is still extremely valuable. And that's why to me, when you're thinking about what the Seahawks can get for him, I don't know, it was a second round pick. We're trading Earl Thomas away?

I don't think it is. And that's why I feel like all of this noise, the Seahawks eventually are going to listen to everything coming from Earl Thomas, everything coming from the outside pressures to acquiesce to what he wants. And in the end, there's going to be like, well, we have Earl Thomas on a really team-friendly contract

and we're just going to keep him on that contract. So here's my question. The Seahawks know Earl Thomas better than anybody. They know what he looks like. Do you not? I know what he looks like. They know what he looks like in practice. More specifically.

I would recognize Earl Thomas. Is that how far we've got with the anonymity of NFL? If you walk down the street. What percentage of NFL players would you, if they walk past you, would you recognize? That's a really good question. Well, I guess it's what level of NFL player would you not recognize? Like, all right, so Kevin Byard walked past you on the street.

Would you know what Kevin Byard looks like? Yeah, but I mean, it's hard for us because there's some teams where I've just spent a lot of time in the locker room. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, like I know what Ricardo-All looks like. Yeah. Exactly. Or Patriot. That's a good point.

Yeah. But like, I don't know what. like Devante Parker. I could not. There's no way I would know. Yeah, I don't know. I have no idea what Devonty Parker looks like.

Yeah. So I put it like maybe 50% like every other guy. Yeah. That's all. I saw Lance Briggs on the street on Saturday night, which is very funny. I recognized him. Did he look like he could still play?

Yeah. He definitely looked like he could still play. The Bears may need him if the linebacker injuries goes. I kind of like, the way it has in recent years. It's really fun when you see these guys who obviously could still play right now. Like when like when Kurt Warner said he was asked to play this year.

I mean, yeah. And the dearth of NFL quarterbacks. I think that is starting to go away. But even if Kurt Warner was like 60% of who he used to be, you think he could give the Jaguars and more to play boarders. There's no way that Kurt Warner is 60% of what he used to be. He's, isn't he like 50? I don't know.

You're probably right. There's no way. He's 46. Come on now. He's 46. Vinny was still playing at 46. Vinny was not actually playing. He was holding a clipboard for Bill Parcells.

It was a job. it was a job racket for Vinnie Testa Verdi. Vinny Testi Verdi played in his final season. How much did he play? Let me get this straight because it's coming up right now. Okay, he was only 44. So, well, it wasn't 46. He was only 44.

He played. He started six games. He went 2007 Panthers. Two and four. I told you. He was still playing it. Vinny was slinging it at 44. That's great.

That makes me really happy. Wow. Let's move on from Vinnie Testa Verdi Talk. He started for the 015 games for the 04 Cowboys. Wow. What an illustrious career for Vinnie? How about Bill Parcells? I can't believe they won six and ten.

Bill Parcells bringing in 41-year-old Vinny Testaverdi. You know what? He's a known quantity. I understand it. Romo was on that team, huh? Wow. Just think of the six degrees of separation, Vinnie's the answer to a lot of them. You can connect a lot of NFL careers with

Benny Testa Verde. What were we talking about? Earl Thomas. We were talking about... Oh, Kurt Warner. No, no, no. I'm sorry. This was about what was about the Seahawks knowing what

O'Don Thomas looks like in practice. I guess they don't because he hasn't showed up for anything. So that's his right. I wouldn't show up if I was him either. But they're not offering him an extension. Yeah, that's not surprising to me, though. Why? He's going to be an unrestricted free agent

next year after this year. They're not even talking to him. It just seems like if they think he was still the impact player that he was 2016, 2017, that they would be saying, here's a blank check. Is that not suspicious to you? Here's my thing. And this is why it's not as suspicious because it's, to me, it's not about performance or value. I think it's about understanding where you are. and the idea that the Seahawks aren't retooling is curious to me.

And I think now I'm more on your side with this, because if it's the last year, maybe that second round pick is worth it versus one year of Earl Thomas. Well, no, I just think I'm just looking at the context clues. It just seems like the Seahawks don't believe in him as much as... I think it's more that the Seahawks don't believe in where they're going to be as a franchise two years from now. And paying Earl Thomas market value for safety now, which is like $13 million a year. Also, the safety market is not so worth it.

The safety market is crazy. traitor in a very weird way. Exactly. But I think that that's just, I don't know. I don't believe in that necessarily. I think that's just the teams kind of following this domino effect and guys not getting signed and affecting the value of other players. I don't understand how Earl Thomas is somehow less valuable than Eric Barry was a year

ago. Right. Because guys like Tray Boston can't get jobs. That doesn't make sense to me. No, I agree with that. I'm just saying that the forces at work here. Also, if you traded Thomas right now, you could get, there's a lot of safeties who are available right now who are significantly worse

than Earl Thomas, but at least decent NFL starters. Would you take a second round pick for Earl Thomas if you were the Seahawks? If I was the Seahawks and I believed his best days were behind him, I would take a second round pick. But this just depends on

kind of what we're saying, which is do they think they can't compete again until 2020? Or what? I think that's a fair... We don't. No, no. It is, it is, it is really hard for us to get inside the brains of John Schneider and Pete Carroll and, and say, we believe we can do blank in 2018 and 2019. And unless you can get that behind the scenes conversation that you don't have all the information about whether or not you would take a second round pick for Earl Thomas. It's, it is trading. I mean, Earl Thomas is as close to a franchise player in a secondary. positions you can get.

And you're only going to trade him for a second round pick if you believe that the 2018 and 2019 are a total right off. I think that in the realm of what the Seahawks have come to expect from just their performance and their ceiling, you can say that those years are a total right off. The Seahawks have $65 million in cap space next year based on projection. And that's without $13 million, Sirrell Thomas. Do you think that in their mind it's more important to have flexibility to be able to allow this retool than it is to maintain Earl Thomas on your roster for the next

however long. I don't know the answer to that, but it could be what they're thinking in the sense that let's not hamstring ourselves. Here's the other question. Do the Seahawks believe that the Rams are so good that they cannot win the division with their current roster, even if they kept Earl Thomas? If they're smart, they think that. They're the third best team in that division right now.

The Niners being number two. I think so. If you had to make a bet right now who wins more games in 2018, Seahawks and the Niners, who would you pick? I mean, it's a great question because you have one team that's on the Ascent and one team that appears to be on the descent. And figuring out where that intersection point comes is difficult. They meet somewhere in the middle.

I would pick the Niners, but that's because I have a lot of red and gold Kool-Aid in my body right now. What? I'm drinking the Niners' Kool-Aid. I know. I know. I just wanted more information. I just, I like what they've done.

I've written a lot about them. I've talked a lot about them. I just, I'm very much in the bag for the Niners where I think that maybe you are not. no I am I just think that they I think they still have a little bit of the whole roster isn't quite there yet I agree but I think even player to player even if you don't consider this Earl Thomas kind of Russell Wilson echelon and the Seahawks roster I think in a 53 man basis the 49ers are a better football team in the Seahawks right now

I may agree with that by training camp I may agree with that I don't I it is hard for me until you get to camp until you... This is a weird thing to say because I'm so into the data part of it. But vibes are a big thing for me.

Like when you go to camp, when we go to camps in July and August, there are vibes around teams. You went to Indianapolis last year and he watched Scott Tolles and we both did this and you're just like, what the fuck is this?

And everybody kind of knew everyone just looks at this team and like, well, this team's dog shit, Chuck Bagan is going to get fired and it's like that's it. And you just sort of know... Or like, you know, Baltimore last year. We were in Baltimore on the same day last year.

And it was just kind of this vibe where it's like, well, another year, here we go again. It's so true. There's no excitement. It was just very much like just pencil us in for another Raven season. And until I go to, I know this sounds like such a dumb old school rationale, but like I want to go to San Francisco and I want to go to Seattle. And I just want to see what those teams look like in July and August. because that tells me a lot. That's fair.

All right, you said that Earl Thomas is one of the few franchise players. It's not a quarterback. I think that over the last five years, you could easily put Rob Grunkowski in that same category. And he's, again, in this same boat. Obviously, there's probably some tension with his contract. He wasn't going to show up to OTAs. There's some rumors around whether he will be traded.

There's a second OTA. There's another OTAs this week that neither Gruncowski nor Brady or are going to appear at. Do you think that this is an actual problem? I think that if he was actually serious about retiring, then that's something the Patriots need to get aggressive about monitoring. Because you don't want to start a season. And obviously, Gromkowski is going to play this year. But long-term planning-wise, Kronkowski is such a force in this offense that you either want to make sure he's a part of it or get some value for it. Because he is a – I mean, I would say he's not once in a lifetime, but he's pretty close to it.

as that level of athleticism, that level of production. And Brady only has a couple of years left, and you're going to want either Rob Gunkowski or a Grunkowski-type production player with him. And so, I don't know what you do. I don't think you should trade him. But if you think he's going to be a problem or Belichick just wants to, you know, maybe he's, Belichick's worried he's going to actually retire at some point. Or maybe he just doesn't want the contract drama. Then, yeah, maybe trade Miss San Francisco for a second round pick. But I would like to keep Rob Grunkowski from the New England Patriots.

I think he's more likely to get traded than Earl Thomas. Well, just because of how aggressive Bill Belichick has been and it's moving on from people. It's that. And it's the fact that there are legitimate factors about wanting to move on from him. He's 29 years old. He's hurt all the time.

There is that if he wanted to retire and not kind of back and forth. I think Rob Grancowski is a transcendent player. But I feel like the track record of this team, the success they've had without him, they won the Super Bowl two years ago without him. And I understand that, you know, there's no Brandon Cooks this year

or maybe their past catching weapons aren't to the degree where you'd say we can lose him and still be fine. All that stuff makes sense. But I do think that there's, there are enough factors involved here where if you were to get traded, it would not surprise me.

Albert Breer floated Rob Grunkowski maybe moving on in 2016. And the reason is because Bill Belichick is so aggressive about moving on from guys. His whole thing is he'd rather move on a year early than a year late. Exactly. And he does take flyers on guys who are maybe a year late, but he does so at the veterans minimum,

and he does so with guys who are coming from other places. He didn't invest heavily in them. Guys like Ocho Cinco or Albert Hainsworth, who obviously were past their prime, didn't work out, but still he will take those sort of chances. That list is long, man. A lot of dudes on that list. A lot of guys.

Wayne's on that list. There's a lot of guys. Reggie Wayne did not make it to the season. No, he got cut. That was kind of an amazing Belichick move. It was bizarre. Just sign him just so he ruins his legacy. Flexing Bill Belichick. He slightly tarnishes his legacy and then just cuts

him. Oh, God. That is just a long con with the Coles Patriots rivalry. That's real good. That's real good. And so Belichick is not going to take a risk if he thinks he's not worth the money. And so if you don't keep Rob Bernkowski of contracts into what happens. And I think that's

sort of the game of chicken that's going to happen. And I think it's one of the most fascinating things to watch because there are already so many crazy stories about the Patriots. And now, I mean, there was some weird report about that turned out to not be true about Brady threatening to retire if they traded gronk or something and they had a meeting in New York. The whole report was was later proven not true, but we're only going to get crazier and crazier these next couple weeks if there's an actual showdown between Gronk and the Patriots. We have to move on, but before we do, I just want to kind of acknowledge that this is, it's not a coincidence that these two guys are connected and we're talking about them in the same segment.

They're both 29 years old. They were both drafted in 2010 and both of them signed contracts before they had to. And I think that those three factors, when you look at them all stacked up or why we're here, because it was the year before the new CBA is when they got drafted. They signed contracts before the market had actually kind of come, had started to clear up and had started to come into focus in terms of how much the cap was going to explode over the next four years. Earl Thomas signed his contract in 2014.

And if you think about the way the cap is still grown from that moment, you can understand why he thinks he's underpaid. Granc is the same way. Grant signed his contract in 2012, which again, is a smart ploy for guys who want to get paid, and especially in Grom's case, have a history of injury and want it to some security long term. But you can understand as Gronk looks around and he sees guys like Travis Kelsey and guys like Jordan Reed getting paid what they are, he's kind of like, what the hell is happening here?

I am not only the best tight end in the league. I am arguably one of the best offensive players in the league. This is garbage. I just want to follow up on a point he said. He said you could see why Earl Thomas since he's worth a lot more. Maybe it's because he's seen them play without Earl Thomas. And that's fair too. I just, this is, again, it's not a coincidence that these guys are reaching this point at the same time.

When you get guys that are about to hit 30 and guys that sign their contracts early, and especially right before this kind of just dramatic increase really began to take hold, you can understand why this stuff has come up and bubbled up at the exact same time. Yep. All right. You want to move on, buddy? Let's get to our OTA's preview, which is not really about predicting specific things that are going to happen in OTAs, but more about the nature of OTAs in general.

And what we wanted to chat about is kind of what you should be watching and what you should be taking seriously from the next week of your life as a football fan. What an OTAs is real. What an OTAs is not real. So, Kevin, why don't you throw out first what people should just not be paying attention to here over the next week or so? Oh, my God. Is it everything?

Everything. Should we start with what's important? Because this will be too long on conversation otherwise? A lot of contract stuff. you can just ignore. A lot of contract stuff. Kallel Mack is not showing up to OTAs. I would for now go ahead and ignore that.

Sure. Right? I mean, there haven't been waves that he's going to, you know, skip the season or so, you know, until we get to, even the first week or two of training camp, don't take that stuff seriously,

because it's been so many times where guys just show up on August 4th and it's fine. So, Kalil Mack. Here's why Kluomack is different than we just talked about. Kaleel Mac is not going to be traded. No, that's why you can ignore it. It's the same thing with Julio Jones. Yes, correct.

Just, who cares? Just let that and that stuff will all work itself out. Dimitrov, Arthur Blank, those guys. They know what they have in Julio. I wouldn't worry about it at this point. Real question. I don't think you should make a call for another team, though. Oh, yeah.

Just curious. I don't think, and you just talk about something else for 20 minutes and just like at the end of the call, be like, you know, I just just think, about it. I read something and I was curious, what's going on, Julio? And you just drop it at the end of the conversation and see what comes of it. Yeah. Great.

Josh Allen took photos with a bunch of fans who got or there were two people who got married outside of the bill stadium the day. Do you see this? No. And they did the photos. And then Josh Allen came out and took photos with the wedding group. He's going to have to do something to endear himself

to the Buffalo vehicle. That could go so south if he turns out to be a huge bust and that what did this, this married couple, what are they doing? They burn those pictures and effigy. What are they going to do with these Josh Allen photos if he's out of here in two years? I don't know. People take a lot of photos at their weddings that they probably don't use later. I think you're about to find that out.

I looked at some last night. There you go. Yeah, I mean, there's obviously, you know, the Julian Edelman news obviously is tangible because he's going to miss four games. Did you see that he you see what he tested for? No. It's an unrecognizable substance is what it's being referred to as. Wow. That's pretty impressive. How do they even know it's banned, man?

Yeah, I know. That's the question. I'm not a scientist, so. I am now more fascinated with what the substance is than maybe anything else right now in the NFL. Is it, was he, is he like, what is he doing? Is it, is it some, is it some, is it some, is it some, no, no, no, it came from a lab, but like, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, what, unrecognizable can we get? Was he doing like Gattaca shit? It's the first Gattaca reference on this podcast. Changing his genes around? Like what?

There's a million ways that could go. Anyway, let's let's show up for now. No, no, no. So I didn't, I didn't, oh, um, I also, one thing, one thing very quickly I'd like to point out, do you know the Ravens lost two more OTA practices? Yeah, what are they doing? They have now lost, the reason yet. They have now lost five OTA practices. in the last three years for illegal CBA violations. With all this cheating, shouldn't the Ravens be better?

I don't know. I know that they maybe need to stop doing this. Probably. That might be the move. I mean, the history of teams violating these things, it's usually not great teams. Remember Eric Manjini and Cleveland had a problem? You probably don't remember that.

I don't really remember that error very well. Robert. Okay, so the one thing I want to say that does matter. Have you gone to OTAs before? No, I've not, actually. So I have. When I lived in New York,

it would be very easy for me to just go down to Baltimore or Philadelphia or Washington, just drive down. And you start to realize that culture is built now. And I wrote a story in February for the Super Bowl

where we talked about the Patriots and why they're so good at coming back and the answer is because they run a lot and you start to realize that conditioning is incredibly important culture is important getting these guys in a mindset where they're going to run getting these guys in a mindset to where

okay you know not necessarily chemistry but and in fact chemistry is kind of not kind of extremely overrated but culture is not. And I feel like getting these guys and building something now is important

because training camp you just don't have the time to do it. One of my favorite stories ever written is about Peyton Manning and about how he would take out the rookies who didn't know how to play golf every OTAs. And he would just teach them golf.

And I remember there was one thing. It was a it was a lineman, I think, and he had a slice that was so bad that Peyton Manning just talked taught him to tee off sort of sideways.

Just slice it right back in the fairway. Yeah, just slice it right into the fairway. It's an early golf move for sure. I think we've all been there at some point. Not me. And then the one you hit straight, you hit three fairways over. I just hit him straight.

First time, Robert. That's not a boy. But, no, that's not true at all. But the reason he wanted to do that, he didn't care about teaching them golf. What he cared about was getting these guys used to his communication style

and getting these guys used to his micromanaging style because that lineman in week 11 is going to get yelled at and he's going to get a teaching moment from Peyton Manning because Peyton Manning thought he was the coach of the team but you don't have that kind of time in training camp you don't have that kind of time in games especially with rookies and so he was building the culture now and saying okay I'm going to do stuff outside of the normal practice time because there's not enough and I'm going to get these guys in the same page I think that getting everybody in the same page is really important and to that end to that end did you see the Detroit Free Press column this week, Robert?

I did. That's what I'd like to talk about. So the Detroit Free Press wrote a column in which they speculated that Matt Patricia is in danger of losing his players. Not speculation. It was the first sentence. Because they run too much. Belichick's already lost his guys then. Belichick lost his guys in 2001 when he started making them run up a hill in Foxborough. And we've seen the results since. I mean, running is important, guys.

I'm sorry to the Detroit Free Press that they're upset about the running, but that's extremely important. And I think that it's a good sign that Matt Patricia's doing it. I don't think he's losing his players. I'm going to go out and let me say he is not as well. I want to say two things about what I think matters before we get to Danny here in a second. First, again with rookies. I think the rookies thing that you're talking about,

pay attention to younger guys because I think that there are two kind of areas in which I think that's important. One, the fact that Marcus Davenport is having thumb surgery right now and you'll miss the rest of OTAs and maybe the beginning of training camp. That stuff matters for rookies.

When rookies get hurt early, do not expect them to have a big impact. I know his is supposedly minor. He might be back by camp. Yeah, raport. Rapport thinks he'll be back by camp. And if he does, that's fine. But that's the type of stuff I would keep an eye out for. Because when rookies get hurt early, they have a really hard time

contributing right away. With a lot of these guys, OTAs are a formality. It's stuff they've done 100 times, even with new coaches, there are formality in a certain way. With young guys, that's not the case, and I'll be watching that. Again, with rookies and younger guys, I really couldn't care about who looks good or not in terms of veterans.

Guys, I don't know if this has been reported, but I'm sure it will be. I bet Kevin White is going to look great at OTAs. Devante Parker's OTA All-Star. Jvente Parker's going to look amazing. Those are the type of guys that always look good, no, he's and I just don't care. But with younger guys, like stuff that's been written about Ronald

Jones right now in Tampa, it's more about the role expected for them than it is about whether they look good these practices. Action speak louder than words. Usage is important to me. Are they running with the ones? Yes. That's the type of stuff that I would like to pay attention to. And that's also for fantasy.

You know, that's just one of those things with guys that are going to get run. That's what you want to pay attention to with younger guys. But just in terms of ceiling. If teams are trying to turn over a new leaf certain positions, you can open up an entirely new level with certain position groups. And I think that's important. Those are the type of things I care about.

It's not whether so-and-so fourth-year receiver who has never come around, caught a couple more balls, including one where he was diving out of bounds, and it's going to be in a whole new ballgame with that person. I don't, I'm not interested in that. Yeah. No, I remember when I covered the dolphins when I was in college, and you would see these guys and they looked great,

and you would say, hey, this guy, I remember this guy, Carrie Reed, who looked great, you know, on the fifth team there in training camp. And then you say, well, they look good. And then they get cut on the, you know, on pretty easily. And you realize it's because they were never running with the ones because nothing matters unless the coaches put them in positions like that because they're looking for what they can do in big spots.

If they're not getting elevated to the twos or the ones, do not pay attention to them. Yeah, as a, as a, you know, Devon Bess is the opposite of that. Devon Best came in as an undrafted free agent had tons of hype, but then he was getting opportunities really early in the summer, and you knew he was going to be an impact player. I think that the undrafted free agent, a young guy kind of

thing, there's a hype machine that exists there and we don't pay enough attention to the positions they're put in as to whether or not we should pay attention to them or not. I totally agree. All right, buddy. Let's get Danny on. Yeah. We now welcome Danny Kelly to the program. Danny, how are you, buddy?

Man, I'm doing well. How are you guys doing? I'm doing great. I'm excited to back to football talk here. Kevin's back from Africa. Yeah, exactly. I'm doing a rugby podcast after this. I have some thoughts on the England, South Africa game the other night. Yeah, yeah. The ringer rugby show is a little bit tough on the tongue. I'm not sure I think you'd have to call it something else. It would be me having the Wikipedia page open and trying to learn the rules for 30 minutes. I'd listen to that. It's great content. All right, Danny, you are writing for this week about some of the more underrated positional units in the league. These are

I always enjoy because I have opinions. So let's get to the first one that you mentioned to me, which may seem surprising. And I think kind of speaks overall to this team's roster construction and how it might be, it might surprise some people. It might sneak up on them. Yeah, I mean, with them signed in Michael Kendricks this week, you know, it kind of helps you look at that unit a little bit closer. And they've got some talent there.

I mean, obviously, Jamie Collins is, he's the headlining guy in that group. and I think he can get back to being a really high-end-back player if he gets healthy and stays healthy this year. Christian Kirksey had a good season, and then Joe Schobert was a really, really quiet pro-bowler last year. Like, you didn't really even hear much about him, but he had a solid season. And so adding Kendrickson to that group, I think,

gives them some options to move some guys around. I think they'll probably try and rush Collins a little bit more because he's so explosive. And it gives them depth, which is important. I think that's a huge part of it is like that position of group with, Michael Kendricks is maybe not as good as some of the other guys they have, but if somebody gets hurt, there are worse options in the NFL than Michael Kendricks. Right. He can play all three positions too.

And so that just gives them so much more solid depth. They're not going to have to be reaching way back into the coffers to the start of guy if someone gets hurt. And so I just think if you look at that group, it's pretty solid. And like you said, in the opening, it's like there's quite a, you know, this team in general is just a lot deeper than it used to be. And so I don't know, man, they're going to be kind of interesting to watch this year. I'm not banking on like a huge, huge turnaround, but I do think they're going to probably surprise people.

And I assume they're not going to be at 0 and 16. So yeah, it's going to be kind of fun to watch this team. The thing about their linebackers getting better and why they would need to is that this team had one of the better run defenses in the entire NFL last year. And now you lose Danny Shelton. Obviously, they trade him to New England to try to get some value out of him as he hits a fifth year option that was untenable for them. And now it's like, okay, we got worse on the defensive line just in terms of

run-stopping ability. How can we make sure that we maintain some sort of just structure in that area of our defense? And I think that's why being better at linebackers is going to be important for them. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and I mean, the depth thing is huge too because just injury, like you can look at like what I'm doing right now is just looking at rosters. You know, that's what you do at this point in time of year.

And I mean, you can just like envision the ideal starting lineup of every team and it's awesome to think about. But injuries happen so much. And it's like, you have to account for that. And so I just think having four starting caliber linebackers in that group is going to be big for them. Let's get to a team that without that sort of depth, though, which is another one on your list. I agree with you on this one. And it pains me to do so.

But the Chicago Bears secondary is another pretty underrated positional group. But they don't have the depth that the Cleveland linebackers do. It's pretty much a starting five and not much else. And that worries me a little bit. Yeah. And this is actually the one, I think the one group on my list who, is basically the same as last year. There's not really any changes happening.

It's the exact same, and it's because they're breaking on those guys. I mean, they had to re-sign a lot of them. Yeah, they had to re-sign. Amukamara, obviously, they kept Kyle Fuller, and then getting Bryce Callahan back on a restrictive free agent deal is good for them. And so, I mean, you kind of just look at their development arc of that group. Plus, they have two pretty good safeties. You know, I really like Amos and Eddie Jackson chose some things last year.

And so, I don't know, just as a group, This looks like a really solid unit, but there's a lot, like you said, there's a lot of caveats to it. One, they got to stay healthy because the depth isn't there. And two, I'm still worried about that pass rush. And without any pass rush, it can really expose pretty much any good secondary. And so, you know, there's kind of some moving parts to this. But I do think they have a lot of talent in that secondary, kind of sleeping on them a bit. The bear's secondary in how it's constructed now.

And like you said, you're excited about Amos and Jackson, is an argument against the idea of bringing in a somewhat proven free agent even when you're not close to being a contender. Because they brought in Quinn Demp's last year. And the only reason that Jackson and Amos got all those steps because Quinn Dembs got hurt. If he hadn't, those guys wouldn't develop the way they did. I'm never happy that anyone gets hurt. But again, that's the problem when you're trying to give young guys opportunities and why you should give young guys opportunities is because they developed the way that a guy like

Eddie Jackson did last year. That was important because we wouldn't be having this conversation if that hadn't happen. The safety position too in particular is so communication based and it's more than just like talking to each other. It's little like super nuanced things like the way the way that guys take their first step or the way they line up prior to the snap and you know, reading a defense and reading the offense and reacting based on what formations and motions and things like that happen. So yeah, I mean those snaps together can be really big and I just kind of hope and expect that that, you know, that safety group is going to take a big jump forward next year.

I certainly hope so. And again, injuries have been their biggest issue on defense over the last couple of years. If they stay healthy, I think that they can be pretty darn good. All right. Let's stay in that division to a group that has really come around just in the last couple of years in terms of the resources spent there of what teams, what we're going to expect from them in general. And that is Detroit's offensive line.

I agree with you here. I just think that they can be a strength when a couple of years ago they were probably that depth charts defined. Right. I actually went when I was looking at this, I thought to myself, you probably could have said the exact same thing last year that they were kind of an up-and-coming group that could break out. But then they had so many injuries that happened throughout the year. You know, Taylor Decker had the surgery at the beginning of the year, he missed the first half. T.J. Lang and Ricky Wagner both missed time. You know, and so they had, they just had so many things go against them. But coming into this year, you know, and this all assumes health, but they're deeper now because they got Frank Ragg now. He can play a couple positions on the interior. They signed, Kenny Wiggins. They got Tyrell Crosby in the draft. So they have some guys, I think, that you can trust a little bit to come in and play that role if guys get hurt. And so, one, I like their depth better.

And two, just when you look at that potential starting five, if you've got, if you pencil Ragnow in at left guard, I think that's a pretty damn solid line. And, you know, they've got a mix of experience and young guys. And, yeah, it's just good. I mean, like, if they can get their run game going, that's huge for them because their offense has been really one-sided, you know, throughout the last couple of years. And I think that could, you know, be a big change for them going forward. I think it's interesting. The Lions, you mentioned this, Robert, but they just went out and just

threw resources at a problem. And I think that that's such a good model for what NFL team should do. And obviously, if you have a complete roster, you can, you know, patch here and there and build that way. But the Lions had a problem, and they threw resources out of. T.J. Lang, they went out and got. They used a first-round pick on Frank Rade now. Um, 2016, they used a first-round pick on Taylor Decker. I mean, this is a, Graham Glasgow, I think, was a third round pick. So you just start looking at how they built their team and they said, we have a problem.

We're going to figure it out. And I think that is admirable in a team building concept. Every so often, we have all these pre-draft conversations about what teams are going to do, where their needs are, everything like that. And so often we're wrong. The way that we identify a team's needs is different than the way they do. Everyone looked

at the Lions, top the bottom, offense, defense and said, this team needs to find a way to run the ball. And their first two picks in the draft, were an interior offensive lineman and a running back, Gary out Johnson. So every so often, it's like, yeah, you know what? We are actually bad there. We probably should do something about it. And speaking of just throwing resources at a problem, Danny,

the last one I want to talk to you about is a team that made the playoffs last year, but I think we all thought was not as good as their record showed or the fact that they were a playoff team. But again, with all the changes they've made, personnel-wise, coaching staff-wise, all that stuff, is a team you can get excited about again. And that is the back end of the Titans defense. yeah absolutely i mean

when you think of the titans it's always kind of like their offense and how you know terrible and boring the the smash mouth the exotic smash mouth was last year not quite as exotic as we'd like yeah it's almost like yeah like opposite of that actually not yeah exactly that's why it was always hilarious not exotic not smash mouth yeah but i mean look at that defense now they got some guys on the defense and in particular in the secondary they've made some additions over the last couple years that you really like. I'm a big fan of Kevin Byard.

I think he broke out last year. You know, obviously he, I don't know if he led the NFL in interceptions or at least at one point he was. Yeah, he did. Yeah. And so he's kind of like that ball hawk in the secondary. They've got, you know, they signed Malcolm Butler and free agency and Logan Ryan was already there.

And so they've got like the Patriots secondary, you know, transplanted over here to Tennessee. And then, you know, add in, you know, Jonathan Siprian, he's a good run defender. he plays his role. He plays well with Byard. It's a good combination. If you're looking for complementary skill sets, it's a good combination. Yeah, exactly.

And then you add in Adori Jackson and what he can do. And so I think that they've got a solid group there, potentially, you know, highly underrated group that could, you know, break out this year. And so I don't know, that's definitely something that they need because you just don't know what to expect again

from Marcus Marriota. But I just think, you know, really on both sides of the ball, this team kind of has the potential to do a big breakout this year. This, it's going to be a weird comparison, and I don't think it's top to bottom like this unit is, but it reminds me a little bit of Jacksonville's defense if it goes the right way. In order to have a quick and complete turnaround, you need a combination of in-house draftees and smart free agent signings. And I think that Kevin Byer can be the Telvin Smith and Dory Jackson can be a version of Jalen Ramsey, even if he's not as good. It's just that type of kind of ascension of your in-house guys and the right bets with your free agent money. That's how you need, that's what you need. That's what. needs to happen if you're going to become the unit you'd like to when you spend all these resources. And that's what they're going for. I mean, you have three free agent signings and two

in-house guys and you just hope that the ingredients in that combination becomes a top flight unit. That's what they need. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, plus then if you add in guys like, you know, Rishon Evans, first round from this year. Yep. Complementary pass. There's a lot of secondary, like we always talk about. All right, buddy. That's, that's all the time we have. Danny. Danny, I really appreciate it. Hey, Danny, Danny, 10 seconds. Earl Thomas. What do you do? You sign him, obviously. Of course.

Why aren't they trying to sign him? I think they're snake bit a little bit from the Cam Chancellor thing. They gave him a lot of guaranteed money, and then he got hurt. And I think, you know, they're looking at the market for safeties lately, and it's just been really low and strange. And so I don't know if they just want to make this soon-to-be-30-year-old guy, the highest-paid player at his position at a position that has been monetarily, at least really strange this year.

They're just, you know, a lot of guys still. a free agents at that position. No one has been closer to the Seahawks without Earl Thomas physically than Pete Carroll. He's seen it. Wouldn't you just give him out of the money in the world? Whatever.

I mean, yeah, I would. It's weird because, you know, I could go on for days about this, but Thomas has been like Pete Carroll's avatar on the field. Like, he played safety when he was coming up. You know, it's a really highly important position in Pete Carroll's defense.

It, like, allows them to do so many different things with their run defense and with their corners. I don't know why they would even consider it, but there's a talk lately about how Carol wants to reinvigorate kind of the competition mantra. And I think guys come in and see, like, they're not going to take Earl Thomas's job. So maybe that's what's happening here. You know, that's a reach. That's a reach. That's a reach.

That's a reach. That's a reach to end on, Robert. All right, guys, that's all we got for today. Danny, thank you very much. And as always, thank you all for joining us. Thank you for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network.