The Ringer NFL Show - Takeaways From the 2023-24 Season and Offseason Outlook | Extra Threat

Episode Date: February 16, 2024

Nora, Steven, Ben, and Sheil open by recapping their biggest takeaways from the NFL season. The Super Team concludes by speaking about what they’re looking forward to the most during the offseason. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out theringer.com/RG to find out more, or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Nora Princiotti, Steven Ruiz, Sheil Kapadia, and Ben Solak Producer: Stefan Anderson Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal and Conor Nevins Musical Elements: Devon Renaldo Social: Kiera Givens and Eduardo Ocampo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There are a lot of quarterbacks in the NFL draft this year. My name is Ben Solac and I host the Ringer NFL Draft Show with Danny Kelly, Danny Hyfitts, and Craig Horleback. We cover trades, free agency, and the draft, which is, yeah, obviously. We'll tell you about everything, which includes which quarterbacks are good, which quarterbacks are bad and which quarterbacks are just Kirk Cousins. That is the Ringer NFL Draft Show. Search the Ringer NFL Draft Show on Spotify. Hello and welcome back to the second inaugural Extra Threat podcast on the Ringer NFL show feed. I'm Nora Frinciatti, and I am joined, as I was last week, live from Las Vegas, not live, but I just like saying it that way, by Shiel Kapadia. Hello, Sheila.

Hello. After the last one, I was surprised. I wasn't sure if we were going to make it to a second one, but here we are, so that's good. Back to back, just like the Chiefs. Stephen Ruiz. Hello, Stephen. I'm optimistic. I knew we were going to come back.

I thought we had a great show. Maybe we'll be going for the three feet. And Benjamin Soak, hello, Ben. We're just going to brush past Steven saying I'm optimistic. We're just going to let him have that line. That's a real thing. I was going to let him have it.

Stephen's riding high. He's still employed by the ringer. We're very happy about it. It's great to be here. We've got a really fun show planned. We're going to have a lot of fun as we always do, but we're also going to go back through the regular season. Just reflect on 2023.

each share something that we sort of learned something that ended up being a lasting impression now that the last game of the year has been played. And then we're going to look ahead and talk about one off-season storyline each that we're excited to see play out. I do want to mention just at the top of the show that, you know, this is a week when we celebrate the Super Bowl champion and we enjoy, you know, witnessing the most of the most of the year. exciting game of the year, game where people come together. But tragically, at the parade on Wednesday where the chiefs were celebrating their accomplishment, there was a shooting with a casualty. I think people have seen a lot of news reports by now. Unfortunately, events like these gun violence

deaths in this country are just unfathomably common. And there's not really anything that, you know, this is a football podcast. We, people should read the news. understand what happened and, you know, our thoughts and our hearts are very sad thinking about something that's just a horrible tragedy. But there's nothing that we can really say that's going to make any shred of difference, except for the fact that, again, this is just the type of thing that, you know, there have been more mass shooting incidents in this country in this year than there have been days in the year so far. So we mention it not to bring everybody down at the top of what's supposed to be a fun pod and will be a fun pod, but just because we sort of can't let ourselves just become so numb to these types of events that we don't say anything at all. So again, it's just a horrible thing and it's really sad. And we're feeling that as I think a lot of people are. Thanks, Ma.

All right. We can turn the page, though. So let's start with a little bit of reflection on the year, I think. Right? We look back before we look forward. So one of our props for this pod was to think about 2023. And we were each going to offer just a lasting impression from the season. So, Sheel, what if I tap you to go first?

Yeah, I was thinking about this. And I was just like, I'm going to go with whatever the first thing is. that comes in my mind. And I was thinking about Wildcard weekend and C.J. Stroud and Jordan Love. And that's just like, that's my impression from 20, 23, because we came into this season. Tom Brady had retired last year.

You know, Aaron Rogers has sort of reached this other stage. And you had some, it's kind of a changing of the guard at quarterback. And it was like, well, which is, you know, who are the new young guys who are going to step up? We know some of them are, obviously, who we've talked about at length on this show. but these were two guys who were complete unknowns. I mean, even if you were the biggest C.J. Stroud Optimist, I don't remember anyone saying,

I think he might have the greatest, you know, season for a rookie quarterback in the last two decades. I don't, maybe someone said that. I don't remember anyone saying that, but that's really what it was. And it wasn't just that he had that. It was kind of the way he had that. Everything he did seems like, wow, this is just like,

there's nothing fluky about this. This is replicable. If anything, you can add some pieces around him. The supporting cast can be better. he can get more reps. And there's another level to get to where really his ceiling. I mean, I don't know. His ceiling is best quarterback in the NFL.

I guess we should say 1A for everyone as long as Patrick Mahomes is doing what he's doing. So, all right, 1A is his ceiling. And then the other guy, Jordan Love, where it was more of a roller coaster. You know, you come into the season. I was ripping him for taking that extension last off season because I'm like, come on, man, bet on yourself a little bit. Maybe if you're good, you don't want to be locked into that. He had ups and downs.

I remember talking with Solak first six weeks of the season and we're just like, well, this is probably what it's supposed to look like. It's a young supporting cast. He's a starter for the first time. You know, this is to be expected. Let's see what it looks like down the road. And then all of a sudden, the guy is just making high degree of difficulty throws, just having me yell at this chair to my right here.

I just remember watching some of those throws late in the season in the playoffs. It'd be like, all right, I'm making him my guy. I love watching this man play football. And now you have these two franchises where he didn't. know what to think. Packers were moving to a different era. Texans were kind of a downtrodden franchise. And now all of a sudden, we look at those two teams going into 2024. And it's like, these two teams can absolutely make some noise right away and their futures are very bright. So that was my lasting impression. The first thing that came to mind was that wildcard weekend. They both

played well and also kind of what it means for those teams and really the NFL sort of quarterback landscape at large. Shil, you just gave such a like a thoughtful reason to, just optimistic to borrow Stephen Ruiz's favorite word, sort of portrait of what both of those quarterbacks accomplished this year. And so now I'm going to be really, really annoying and make you be predictive. Who are you more excited about next year? Like, whose ceiling is higher? Oh, my goodness.

CJ, you know what? I'm already the wheels are churning. Excuse me, because I know I'm going to have to do a trade value column update. So my cop out is that CJ Stroud still got that rookie deal. And so if I had to pick one for my. franchise, it would be Stroud, but that's not really what you're quite. I think I would still lean Stroud, but I'm thinking about it. I do love, I just, you know, Jordan love like in terms of players I enjoy watching play football

and the types of throws he attempts to make. And I mean, think of who he was throwing the football too. I mean, these are all first and second. Picklow. Pick love, shield. You know you want to. No, trying to talk yourself out of it. No, it's trout.

He's right. It's Stroud. Leave my calls alone. You know what, though? Sitting here going like, why is no one yelling? I expect both Ben and Stephen to be yelling right now. Listen, well, I will say this. I will say this, Ruiz.

One of my longstanding life things is like just give in to peer pressure. Unless it's something that's going to put yourself, unless it's going to put yourself in harm's way, obviously those things, you don't want to do damage. But for the most part, if someone's like, you know, hey, come on, you know, stick around for one more. It's easier to just like stick around for the one more drink than to put it. No, I'm out of here.

So I will give into peer pressure. And because I am team content, and I think more people will say CJ Stroud, I'm changing it and I'm taking Jordan Love. So there you go. This is why I didn't yell because if I had supported Stroud, I immediately he's going love. The second I would have been like,

yeah, I'm so excited about his, you're right, great take. You're like, you know what? It's Jordan. And it's always been Jordan, Benny. Like, that's the way he goes about that. No, not Shields, boy. Yeah, well, I was, I tried to find it.

I didn't have it. Well, all right, then, Ben, make the case. For Stroud over love? Yeah. Yeah. What Stroud does in terms of like accuracy and aggression downfield and in terms of like pocket management as well. Like I think that Love's best throws are like high aggression throws and they're high physical challenge physically challenging. They're difficult throws.

But there's a lot more of like a standard risk reward with love where like he'll try some knucklehead stuff and it won't work. And like he'll invite interceptions. He'll bite plays on the ball. He'll go outside of structure and he'll get sacked. He'll get pressured. Stroud's risk reward right now is like astronomical. And honestly, like, it is a hard question because you watch Stroud's rookie season and you go, okay, there's no way he can keep this up, right? He's going to have to come back down to Earth in some

degree where he's trying all these like tight window throws and these these tight coverage throws, like eventually like the interception numbers are going to come. But right now, like, the juice that he gets for the squeeze in terms of the downfield shots that he gets, the explosive plays that he gets while still protecting the football, moving away from sacks, not being like a high turnover rate guy. Like that ratio is unbelievable. And so Stroud continues to be that. That's where he hangs his hat. It's just like, I can create explosives without the cost. Like, I can be a quick time to throw player. I can be a low interception rate player, but still create big plays. Like that, that's the dream. That's exactly what I want in a quarterback. It's

just give me, rip me off chunk gains while also not making the game dangerous. It's unbelievable. How many of us, for our impressions, did something quarterback related? I have like, I have like a similar but also opposite take from shield. I was related to the one he had. Not going to lie. What was yours, Steven. Mine was that the quarterback position is in good hands. And like she'll said, we were worried about that with these old guys moving on. In the last couple of years, we've lost a couple of Hall of Famers. I'm not worried about that so much anymore.

And it's because of guys like Stroud, because of guys like love. And then just the elite guys that are young right now, like Mahomes is just getting better every year. Josh Allen is getting better every year. Lamar Jackson is getting better every year. I don't know if this is the best era for quarterback play ever, but it's the coolest one, too, because you have all of these different styles of play. Whereas 15 years ago, I don't think Brady and Manning were as similar as people make them out to be,

but they were in the same archetype of quarterback. Now we have all these different types at the top of the league. And it's cool to watch and it's cool to see how they shape their respective offenses. Ben, were you going in the same direction? What's speaking? Why are you giggling over there? My take is kind of the opposite direction, but again, not really. Let me state my tape.

I'm optimistic. He's cynical. And then she'll and then she'll yell at me. Extra point, threat, dual, go. Dual taken. My lasting impression of the season is that quarterbacks not named Patrick are overrated. All right? Oh, brother.

Here's the thing. And let me explain. Let me explain why. Eagles fan. No, because here's the thing, right? I think Josh Allen, right, emphatically like walking into the season, the second best quarterback in the league.

like Josh is the contender to Patrick Mahomes. We heard that a couple of, you know, the last off season. And then the bills barely limp into the playoffs. And there's an offensive coordinator change and there's injuries across the board. But you just, you forget how much their defense matters. You forget how much their wide receiver room matters. Oh, when it wasn't Josh Allen, it was Joe Burrow. And obviously, like, Joe Burrow got hurt before the season and during the season.

But there was a stretch in the middle of the season when Joe Burrow was purportedly healthy. And it turns out that like, hey, offense isn't always as easy as chuck it up to Jamar Chase, chuck it up to T. Higgins. And again, like, he was hurt. I understand that. I don't think the Burrough case is like a huge argument for this, but we love to put people near Mahomes. We love to be like, oh, like, who's contending with Patrick?

And the answer is just no one. And nobody, it's not close. You're all fighting for second place. Lamar, Burrow, Josh, you're all fighting for silver medal and to not be close to gold. We saw this season like, Justin Herbert and the Chargers, right? Where it's like, okay, like they have the Mike Williams injury and Keenan's banged up and the defense isn't solved. They can't make the playoffs.

Trevor Lawrence and Herbert are playing excellent ball. These teams are not making the playoffs. Bring up Tua if you want. Right. Like all, like, oh, Tua's great. Like, we believe in Tua. Two is improving under McDaniel. Yeah, defense has gone wind of this and slowed this thing down.

Like, we love to talk about quarterbacks. We love to silo and focus on quarterbacks. I think we do it too far. And this season was a reminder that, like, hey, the other positions on the field really freaking matter. Ask the Kansas Dachief Super Bowl champion. How much cornerback matters to them? How much wide receiver matter to them over the course of the season?

We like to list the top quarter. and then say those are the best teams. And I think we oversimplify that. And this season was a good reminder that unless you have Patrick, Patrick is the gold medal, the standard, untouchable. Their guys probably fighting for second place. And being the second best quarterback does not like impact and predict team success on a one season view.

It certainly does it over like a five season view, but it does not on a one season view as much as we, the football consuming fan base wants to believe. That's not the opposite of our takes. I'm so confused by the take. I don't know that I totally understand the take. of that rant, googling frantically to see if there was a backup quarterback anywhere named Patrick. Named Patrick, yeah.

Shockingly few other Patrick's in the national football league. That's why, like, opposite wasn't correct. I knew opposite wasn't correct. Shield, the take is just fundamentally that one stop trying to say, oh, is he pushing Patrick? Or who's the best quarterback in? Who's saying that? It's always. Come on.

Who's saying Patrick Ball? She'll watch any content. No, I don't watch the nonsense content. We could take a poll. Wait, wait. We could have a list of 50. were NFL people we respect. And I bet you all 50 during the season,

before the season, after the season, you said, give me one quarterback to start your franchise with. And 48 would have said Patrick Bahomes. Am I wrong about that? Yes, but, but chill, guess what? The people who consume football content don't exclusively listen to us and the other 50 people that we respect.

They listen to some other people. And sometimes it's important to address those things. Hold on, hold on. I mean, Stephen and I had a conversation not that many weeks ago about not over a five-year sample size, but this season, Lamar Jackson being worthy of

a conversation as currently performing as the best quarterback in the league. Now, obviously... Shiel's been looking for a way to tell you this, but he doesn't respect your takes. That's why you didn't make the 50 list. That's the problem there. Obviously, the last couple of weeks

have served as a referendum on that. Has it though? Wait, wait, wait. Let me push back against that. Because if Zayflau's doesn't fumble into the end zone, Solac's not going on that rant, he just went on two minutes ago. Let's just say that it was a very close game. This idea that Patrick Mahom, like the chiefs have Patrick Mahomes,

so they're never going to lose again. They just got waxed by like 30 points to the Raiders on Christmas. I agree with this. This is ridiculous. It's just overreaction to them winning two Super Bowels in a row. They were a very flawed football team. We run that season back again. they're not winning the Super Bowl every time.

They weren't the better team in Baltimore. Baltimore was a better team than them. They play that game 10 times. Baltimore wins seven times. So what you're saying is elite quarterbacking is not as predictive of team success as maybe we like to believe it is. But I mean, it is. It gets you in the mix.

The other team have the MVP? What are you talking about? So I think I'm with what Stephen said and I disagree because I think this actually, I do think this is something that has come out of the Super Bowl win, that it's just like, it was inevitable. It was going to be Mahomes all long. So I think two things are true. One, yes, Mahomes is on another tier.

Absolutely. Whole body of work. That's the guy you won. No one, I can't make an argument for anyone else. Maybe some can. But I do think what Stephen has said is so true. We make these huge narratives, but like, if the ball doesn't hit Daryl Luter's foot, like the chief scored one touchdown on the first 12 offensive possessions.

And an average NFL game, you get the ball 11 times. Like, it's a random bounce where we're having a different conversation after the Super Bowl about how, hey, the Chiefs didn't have enough on offense and they were able to get by, but in the end, it bit them and another team one. And which still would have perfectly served by the second half of my team. But I mean, I was like, I think elite quarterback play gets you in the mix. It's going to get you to the top four, top six, top eight. I mean, the bills, I think are a great example of that over the years. They haven't won it, but they're always in the mix because the quarterback can get them to a specific level.

Now, we can say which quarterbacks are the elevators who can get you to that level. and that's probably a pretty short list. It's probably fewer than five. I don't know what the number is without thinking about it. But I do think if you have like one of those maybe four to six guys, then you're just like there's going to be a weird year where a lot of people get injured. But for the most part, you're going to be in the playoffs. You're going to be in the mix.

You're going to be in the divisional round. And once that happens, like weird stuff's going to happen. But you need that, you know, if you have that guy, that's the way to sustain success and give yourself a chance year after year after year. The divisional round had Brock Purdy, Jared Gough, and Baker Mayfield. Yeah, this year. That's a random one-off years. Brock went to the Super Bowl.

And then what happened? Jared Gough went to the NFC. And then what happened? Oh, so, okay, so you guys get to argue Chiefs should have actually won the game when you want to, but then when I bring up the other guys, I'm saying, oh, we don't worry the Chief won. So it justifies it. I'm saying sustain success, like over a period of, yes. In a one-off year, absolutely, you can get there with a random guy.

we know that. But if you're saying like, and this is how NFL teams are like, how do we build a team that's in the mix for the next whatever, six years or whatever, the easiest most straightforward path is to happen. Maybe there's another way.

Like maybe it will happen. No, I agree. It's not a five-year take. It's a one-year take. But the prompt was, what did we learn off the 24 season? And I struggle to look at this season

with all the expectations that many fan braces brought in for Justin Herbert, Trevor Lawrence, Jalen Hurts, to a tongue-o-a-law, rightfully or wrongfully, for all of those.

and say, hey, like, we overinflate the level of our quarterbacks play and the value of that level. We inherently do it because, like, football conversation is quarterback centralized. It absolutely is. I'm just beseeching the people to care about your right tackle. Care about your corner to. Like, these are real positions on a high impact on games. We're going to need a clip of that. Ben, select quote, care about your right tackle, 2024.

That's the platform I'm running on. I am beseeching the people. Yeah, I mean, that might break some social records, care about your right tackle. You are so besieged, audience. That was a good take. I'm happy with how I defended it. I like right tackles,

but I don't want to come across as anti-right tackle. I'm anti-right tackle. Me too. Losers. Protect the blind side. Play on the blind side like a real man. Compete. All right.

Speaking of, mine is, I feel like mine is sort of, related to all of these things. And I wasn't sure if someone was going to go in the same direction. So I tried to be a little bit cheeky with it, which is to say that my lasting impression is that we have a new football hipster obsession.

And it's sack avoidance. And I just, I mean, I remember a couple years ago. A few years. No, this is all said with love. And I actually, and you know what, you know what? I had to... 2019, 2020, Eagles fan band with Carson Wads

was already here, all right? I knew this band first. I had their album on vinyl. And listen, representing the Normies, I don't know that we're giving this one to the hipsters, but sorry, continue.

I say it with love. I just, you know, a few years back, there was a really trendy line of analysis about how the smart thing to do is to build a defense back to front and teams always. is always they invest on the line and they invest in the pass rash and you should invest in

coverage and and I actually think that's that's born out to be a little six and what it happens than the other this probably has a little bit more credibility but just in terms of of something kind of entering the discourse and trickling down to the normies I think we have the latest one and you know you can you can look at the Super Bowl right you can look at the season that Mahomes had and what worked and what didn't work about that Chief's offense. And there were a lot of things at a lot of points this season

that didn't work very well. But one of the things that is not particularly sexy, but was always true, was that he was not taking a lot of sacks. And relative to the amount of pressure he was taking, especially he was not taking a lot of sacks.

If you look at this season, the top 10 quarterbacks with at least 150 dropbacks by pressure to sack rate. So the amount of pressured dropbacks that turn to sacks least to more. It's Josh Allen, Mahomes, Purdy,

Jordan Love, Jared Gough, Gino Smith, Jalen Hertz, Justin Herbert, Matthew Stafford, and Josh Dobbs. So... Oh, Josh Dobbs. Shout out Josh Jobs. A lot of great quarterbacks and then Josh Dobbs. Well, but think about it.

You've got seven out of ten of those are playoff quarterbacks. Two more, Gino and Justin Herbert are a quarterbacks. are a quality starter, you know, Herbert of a slightly different caliber, but both quality starters. And then you've got Josh Jobs, who is not the same caliber of quarterback,

but at the same time, there is basically one reason that that was even remotely stable in Minnesota for as long as it was. And it was because that guy can run around. So, you know, I know both Stephen and Ben, because this is essentially a point

about quarterback mobility, which is something that Stephen and Ben have both written a lot about this year. So I'm curious, what both of you would say. But, you know, the broader point can certainly be that if you're building now and if you're going after a quarterback,

even though Ben says they're completely overrated and they don't really contribute at all. And actually, I mean, we should just try the sport without them because they're all sort of, they're all sort of. Wing T, wing T, say, wing, the right tackle throw of the football. I'm sorry, is Ben's so like morphing

into Bill Belichick in his little Riverside cube all of a sudden? Is that a good I see? If you're doing a build right now when you go off your quarterback, this is a year that I think at the beginning of this year, I would have probably

given you an answer about how necessary these traits are, which is to say, really nice to have, definitely preferable to the alternative. If you have some structural advantages outside of the quarterback, blah, blah, blah. You can make it work with another guy, yada, yada, yada.

This is a season just in terms of who succeeded and who failed. And that is when we look at who the playoff quarterbacks were. That is when we look at who are the quarterbacks like Mack Jones, who absolutely faceplanted. This is when we look at who are the Jordan Loves and the CJ Strouds who really sort of popped off in a new way. One of the absolute through lines of 2023 was this is a huge problem. This helps you win football games. And this helps you if you're Josh Allen and you're someone who throws a lot of picks, has a lot of turnovers, is losing possessions that way. And that's a big narrative.

We talk about it. It's on all the morning shows, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But if at the same time you are not contributing to unproductive possessions because you are not taking sacks, it's hugely valuable and an underrated feature. that was my way of making a point about quarterback mobility differently in case all of you guys did, but then Ben just went with quarterback suck. Right. You had actual staff.

The fake news, the aggregators are getting my take so wrong right now. You're Tom Brady. You're Tom Brady being like, I see terrible quarterback play. Man, Tom, check out of cover two, son. What are we doing? That's my take. That's my lasting impression. I do think that's like, I've been here, I've been on this hill.

That's right, that's right. But I do think that that's the thing that gets underrated in prospect evaluation. Like Anthony Richardson, I thought that was overlooked in his game last year. Everyone wanted to focus on his accuracy and how he read a defense and whether he was raw or not. But he had one of the lowest pressure to sack rates in the whole country behind a bad offensive line. And I think early on, before his injury, we saw that kind of translate. and throughout recent history, we've seen that translate

with a lot of different guys. Yeah, I think, I believe, and I could be wrong about this, but I think it is one of those, like, it's so hard to find the stats that carry over from college to the NFL, but I believe there have been, like, analytic stuff that suggests,

no, if someone's good at this in college, they're going to be good at it in the NFL, and vice versa, and even once you get to the NFL, like there's always going to be exceptions. I'm pretty sure Jared Gough, like there's probably been years where that's been pretty high,

and this year it wasn't high. I could be wrong about that. Yeah. But I think for the most part, like that is a quarterback stat. Like, what are you able to do? And we know statistically that sacks kill drives. You take a lot of sacks.

You know, one year, you're probably going to take a lot of sacks the following year. And those are just killing possession after possession after possession. So yeah, I've got that. That's become like one of the stats I like to look at all the time when looking at quarterback. So I guess I am a normie now because, yeah, it was just this year that I was like, oh, you know, I kind of like this one.

All these other ones are, you know, nonsense. But this is one that I like to look at. It's going to help me evaluate what this guy does well. So I'm with you for sure. Yeah. To continue on my overrated, underrated theme. One of the things that, why, we started to talk about this year, I remember Stephen and I can't remember who, which quarterback got us on this,

but it was the idea that sacks are underrated and interceptions are overrated. Where, like, people see interceptions. Josh Allen. Yeah. Yeah. That's on the interception. That's on the quarterback. And it sucks.

It ends the drive. I don't think people realize how frequent. Sacks end drives. It's not an end-all-be-el, like an interception very clearly ends a drive. A SAC, I was trying to find out there's a good data piece that has some information. I couldn't find it while I was Googling. But sacks really are very, very high drive-enders. It is very hard to take a sack on a series, especially if you're taking it on like a second down,

a third down, obviously, but if you're taking it like into the series, very hard to then go pick up the first down afterwards. And quarterbacks have a lot more control over sacks. Not a lot more. Goerbics have more control over sacks that I think people realize and less control of interceptions, I think people realize. And so when we care about what quarterbacks do and what's measurable, like she'll said, what's sticky, sacks we need to care about more, both because of the impact they have on the offense and because of the quarterback's control of whether or not they take a sack.

The funniest person on that list is actually not Josh Jobs. It's Jared Gaw. All right. Yes. The general, like the three-legged stool of quarterbacking from Adam Harsstad, right, says you're going to be one of three things. You're going to be a high sack rate guy, a high interception rate guy, or you're going to be a low A-dot slash high throwaway. guy. And yes, Jared Gough doesn't take a lot of sacks. Dirt's a lot of footballs, Jared does. Not necessarily going out there and crate and plays the young man Jared is. And so, right, like, it's good to be low sack. It's better to be high throwaway than it is to be low sack, but also we all know Jared's numbers against the blitz. We know what he does. He just gets

rid of the football and goes to fight for second in 10. In terms of, like, prospect evaluation, I feel like it's the one thing that really translates, like, in terms of what you're facing in the college game, because you're not going to read out plays the same in college as you do in the pros. You're not going to deal. with the same pockets. You're not going to see the same coverages, but like, dealing with a big guy in your face is the same no matter where you're playing.

Is there anything, Ben, am I, am I ambushing you asking if there's asking you to do a little draft talk? And if there's any sort of, you have any formed opinions about which prospects this is a thumbs up for and which this is the thumbs down for?

You're not ambushing me on the prospects. Caleb, I just found of these stats is Anthony Amico of Established the run. Caleb Williams is just pure sack rate, it's not pressure to sack, but Caleb Williams, 7.7% sack rate, Drake May, 5.7%, Jaden

Daniels, 5.1%. The only guy of the top dudes who's like remarkably low sack rate, actually two, Bonix out of Oregon is 1.2% Michael Pennix is 2.1%. What I'll say of the top three, Caleb, Drake, and Jaden, all three of them are aggressors. All three of them would like to hold on to the football to create

stuff. Jaden tends to take a one read and scramble guy, so a lot of his sacks are like outside of the pocket, gets dragged down behind line of scrimmage. Caleb and Drake are a lot more let's buy some time so we can chuck this thing. And I'll be honest, high sack rates for both.

I kind of don't care. They're heavy metal. They're both sick. They're both so cool. They can achieve a lot. And they're trying to score a ton of points because that's how their teams need to win games. So that'd be a thing I'd be interested to ask them about.

Because like for both of them, it feels to me like they've had a good return on their investment when they keep the football. So it might be a habit. You have to wean off them a little bit when you get to the but not too much because both them win that way. I feel like with Caleb, it's kind of like the Mahom situation in college

where he had to live like that in order to move the ball. Like I never watched him and was thinking, oh, I wish he got rid of the ball quicker there. I mean, every once in a while, but it wasn't a problem that I saw a lot. Yeah, and with Drake, like, Drake, I would say more like,

sometimes Drake will see that it's a blitz and be like, ah, I'm big. He'll just get, like, lit up like a Christmas tree. You're like, yeah, Drake. The other guy, guy's kind of big too. And that's like, Drake's got to learn, I think, more than. Jayne Daniels does that, but he's not big.

And he's, yeah, he's a stuntman out there. Yeah. Speaking of things Mahomes had to do in college, have I ever told you guys that one of my deepest regrets is not going to see a 68 to 55 Arizona State Texas Tech game? You could have gone to that seven touchdown Caleb

Belmont game? I could have gone to that game. Actually, I wanted to go to that game. It was the first NFL game I ever covered. It was the Patriots. Everyone at college game. Yeah? Patriots at Cardinals. It was the first Jimmy game.

Brady was suspended. And it was my first like road game, any game of that season. I was working for the Boston Globe. And, you know, I don't mean to throw my wonderful coworkers under the bus here. But they went golfing during the day and got like drunk and sunburned. And we're like, eh, we don't actually want to go tonight. And I was like, okay. Well.

So, wait, can I ask something real quick? Why did you want to go to Arizona State, Texas Tech? I didn't really, I didn't want, like, this was not my idea, but I was 22, and I had no, I hadn't made any friends, Ben, that meant a lot to me. Thank you. I hadn't made any friends on the beat yet, and so I was just, like, happy to be invited. And they were like, oh, do you want to come to the fuck? That's except.

No friend loser wants to see Patrick Mahomes. She doesn't have to explain anymore. No, no, no, no. I mean, like, at that time, like, obviously, Mahomes was, like, fun and a sensation or whatever. But if someone had been, like, I really wanted to go see that era of Arizona State versus Texas Tech football, that's a little on it.

Like, if I said that, I'd be worried about me. So I wanted to just make sure. No, everyone was just like, oh, there's a sun devils film. There's a local college team's got a game tonight. Maybe that would be fun. And then we didn't go. And then it was an epic game. But now you got to see Patrick Mahomes in the,

in the Super Bowl. That's true. Two years in a row. Yeah. That's true. All right. Why don't we take a quick break and then we will come back

and do offseason storylines? It was an eight touchdown game for Caleb. Benjamin, I am trying to throw to the break. Sorry. All right. We are back. I'm pretty sure Ben is still looking at that box score. Kiki Kuti had one catch for eight yards.

It went the fourth round in this game. Ben, it was like a hundred degrees. they all went golfing. They all had like eight beers while golfing and we're just like, I don't care about what your pals did. I just look at the box score again. I should have gone solo.

I really should have just gone. Patrick Bohombs led Texas Tech and rushing. This was really quite the precursor for his career. You can tell the story of the next 10 years. Good game. Also, it was like eight years ago. Okay. Back on track.

Maybe. We're going to do the same thing. We're going to each go around, talk about something we're looking forward to in the offseason, something we're interested to see play out. Presumably, Ben's will have nothing to do with quarterbacks because he doesn't believe in them and doesn't think that they're relevant. One of my first options was like,

I want to where Kirk goes. And I was like, I can't do that after you that. Yeah. I don't know. I'm going to cut that one. All right. What did you do instead? I'm really interested to see what the league does with the hip-trop tackle this

off season. I think this is like a really important. arc. So for those who don't know, the league is, why are we laughing at me? Go back to the Kirk one. This is a big deal.

You're so weird. This is funny. Short is. Okay, tell us about the hip drop tackle. Short's a big deal. That's why the rest of us are laughing. I'm being bullied on the podcast. The hip drop tackle,

okay, is a tackle which defense's player. grabs an offensive player ball carrier, then he rotates, and then he drops his weight, and he lands on the player's ankles and on their legs. This has led to a lot of injury over the course of the last couple years. Mahomes got a,

it has a sprained ankle in the playoffs last season. I'm sorry. Are you really coming on this podcast to say quarterbacks don't matter, but the hip track tackle does? I didn't say quarterbacks don't matter. And this is an off-season story. What am I going to do?

I wonder where T. Higgins goes? Yes. Yes. That better. Brussels. The Jets. to hate each other. Why would I possibly care about Russell Wilson in 2024?

Is this 48th best quarterback in the league? Hip drop tackles aren't real. Well, so that's the thing, right? Is the league, like, there's very clear momentum that the league wants to get rid of this thing, but they struggle to define this thing. Hip drop tackles are a very, like, gray area. It's not head-to-head contact where it's a guy's very obvious. But there's two ways to tackle a guy,

and there's to put your momentum and your velocity through him, or to drop your weight on him. And right now, like, we've had a lot of litigation against putting your velocity through a guy, you know, hitting a guy with contact over the middle of the field and necessary roughness leading with the head. And now we're going to get litigation against dropping your weight on a guy. It's going to be really, really challenging to just tackle football players.

And obviously, like, rules skew towards offense more and more every single year. This feels like an extremely big one, in my opinion. We're like when we started to think about those, those, like when the illegal contact penalty started to appear in the league and all of a sudden offensive scoring jumped, I think hip drop can have a similar effect. So maybe it's the betting guy and me who's looking at totals and cares about points scored. Maybe it's just the, you know, the little fifth grade who wanted to play safety because he idolized Brian Dawkins.

But like this, in my opinion, will really hurt defensive players' ability to tackle guys in space. It is really hard to do the job if you can't leave with your head and go velocity through. And if you can't drop your weight on a guy, you have to try to do it for the safety of the game. I acknowledge it's got to try to be done. But it is challenging. It is a big deal. And so I'm very interested to see what this looks like, composition committee. is obviously going to meet over the next couple weeks.

We're going to get some more information about this at the NFL Combine. This is a big storyline of the offseason for me. And I'm allowed to have my opinions and my interests. And you are supposed to support me as my friends. I think the rest of us can agree that if there's any hip-drop stuff happening and can we all agree? We'll let Solac handle it. No one else do a hip-drop tackle take.

Solac, it's your corner. If that rule gets implemented, you get to write off of it. Yeah, you get exactly. Don't ask anybody else. And I'll be happy to because it would be a key. storyline. Were you guys not getting hip-dropped tackle questions every single week of the season?

Because I was. No. It's not. No. No, not really. I do. I'm looking forward. This is the type of thing that makes a competition committee meeting really spicy. So here's what I can tell you. And I'll say this with my chest. I'm really

looking forward to, you know, the Adam Schaeft or the Tom Pelliserro, the Seth Wickersham, whoever it is, who's got the eyes and ears. in that meeting and gives us the color on which member stood up and delivered

and impassioned. You're ruining the game. Football will never be the same. This isn't real football. This is undermining the integrity of the National Football League, of America, of modern society.

This is just the type of thing that people get really upset about in those meetings. and that tends to leak to reporters. It's a big deal to the owners of the league, but let's make fun of Ben for caring about it. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Ben.

I'm sorry we made fun of you for your hip-drop tackle. I'll remember this. Listen, this is how you get to be a member of the football hipsters assigned. So it's good. There will be talk about it, and I will defer to you when there's talk about it. Yeah, looking forward to it.

All right, well, that was our hip-drop tackle. correspondent Benjamin Solek. Stephen, you want to give us your take? Your offseason look ahead. The fairness of the tush push. That's what I want to talk. No, I don't care about that stuff. No, touch push tired.

Him from tackle wire. No, I want to know, and this is a new one, I had a change mind based on yesterday's news. I want to know who Kyle Shanahan hires as his defense coordinator. I think it tells us what Kyle thinks about where defense is going and what kind of defense stops his offense, because that's the type of thing that's spreading throughout the league. That's the type of offense that's spreading throughout the league.

if I'm Kyle, I'm calling Belichick. If you had it in you to call about Brady, you've got to call about Belichick. And I think that's the move that might get him over the hump. Every once in a while, someone has a take where you're just so jealous of it. I'm so jealous.

That's a great idea. I love that idea so much. I mean, if he doesn't do it, particularly with those two make weird phone calls to each other, That's how Jimmy Garoppolo happened. They love to do it. They love to, Hey, Bill, it's Kyle.

Hey, Kyle, it's Bill. They love to do it. That's like a conversation you have with your kids. How did Jimmy Garoppolo happen? Well, Kyle and Bill have weird phone calls. And then Jimmy appears. Jimmy Garland was traded for a second round pick.

A stork flew out of Eastern Illinois University. I mean, it, it, when you think about it, like, all right, so the reasons why, and I'm with you, I think that is going to be interesting to see who he gets. And in my head, I'm like, there are reasons why that would make a lot of sense. Like you said, they know each other. They respect each other. Belichick's not, what's he going to do, TV? This, you know, if he wants to be in the game, he could be on a team with Super Bowl aspirations,

and he could work with somebody who he likes, a defense that has talent, you know, it would just be kind of another sort of weird feather in his cap. The thing holding me back, if you're Kyle Shanahan and you can't get over the hump and you've been so close over and over and over again, does your ego allow you to bring in Bill Belichick and like win a Super Bowl? And it's like, I don't know what the narrative will be, but there will be some part of it. Well, he brought in Belichick and Belichick helped him win the Super Bowl, who was really, you know, calling the shots. Belichick was coaching the whole defense. That's the only thing I wonder about. Now, maybe he's like, who cares?

I want the ring. I want the Lombardi. This is the best guy for the job. That would be, you know, a reasonable, rational way to approach it for a normal human being, as I say all the time, NFL head coaches are not normal, rational human beings. They're not well-adjusted people. There's a lot of stuff at play there. But, man, that would be such a fun storyline for Belichick to be freaking calling that defense

portion and what does it look like next year. So yeah, I am interested in that. I feel like hiring, getting to hire Belichick to work for you is the biggest ego boost you can get. So who cares about this? That's true. Also, Bill has another option. He could podcast. I'm willing to make it a triple threat podcast, Bill, if you want to come on.

Open an invitation. We could put another window in here. We could do extra point dual threat taken, get a six rectangle on the front side screen. Can you imagine how much Shiel would call Bill Belichick a football hipster if you were on our show and he's just objectively? The 10th poll, the football discourse for the last 20 years. Yeah, we have so many Matt Jones questions. No doubt about it. Yeah.

Yeah. Bill would be like, oh, man, like, I think tackling's good. She'd be like, the football hitters. All talking about tackling these days. Mischaracterizing, my takes, but that's okay. I think it's a good question about if Kyle would do it, if the ego would get in the way. But I, if he, I'd respect the hell out of him for doing that, because I do think that a lot of coaches would at least have.

pause for that reason. One, it's so hard to know how the, how the narrative stuff plays out just because sometimes that's dictated by like, Stephen A wakes up in the morning and he's got a particular rant brewing and then that's what everybody does for the next week. But I just, in my soul,

I have to believe that if Kyle, he's just got to win one. He's just got to win. It doesn't matter how he's just got to win one. trophies have a way of just sort of making everybody shut up about all the little stuff. And it would just be such a cool story that I think people would buy in on it too.

Just to back up for a second, I was very surprised to see Wilkes get let go. Was anyone feeling like that might have been coming? I mean, we talked about it a lot on dual threat in the weeks coming up for the Super Bowl. I've not been impressed at this Niners defense for much of the season. You're on extra point.

I was going to say, did you forget the name of your own podcast you're on? What is happening here? Oh, we've been riffing on the two names for a while. Forgive me for being a little bit conflated with the names. Oh, it's like, wait, you got some news, Ben? You got some news, do we have like a, yeah, do we have a special YouTube channel that you're on that I don't know about? We're going to be on a podcast. We have some news to break to you.

This is an intervention. The, yeah, no, the, they were running a lot of quote unquote, the, the, Emiko stuff, the Robert and Sala stuff. But, and like, you've seen this happen all across the league, offense and defense to side of the ball, but especially defense. When a guy comes in who wasn't, you know, inoculated in the system, he didn't come up in in the system, he gets the big dials right, gets the big features right, but it's the little switches.

It's the little stuff. It's the fine tuning where like the pressure packages aren't as good, aren't as consistently. The coverage makes up aren't as good, aren't as consistently. They just, they're speaking a different language than they typically speak. So the accent's going to be a little bit wrong. the declension of the verb's going to be a little bit wrong. There's just details that make it clear, like, this is not the system. And so with Wilkes, like, they had no run defense solutions, none.

Never, like, nothing structurally, like, solving of these problems. And then I thought the real big thing was, like, third down pressure packages where they were absent. Like, this was not a top 10 defense for the entirety of the season. This was a bottom five rush defense for the whole season. And you saw their defense be a problem against the Green Bay Packers, against the Detroit Lions. And then I thought deliver an above average performance against the Kansas City Chiefs. And above expectation, I should say, and it still wasn't enough. So to me, this is not super surprising.

With that said, like Wilkes was a decently high floor coordinators. He's done this for a while. He's respected players like them a lot. So you've got to get this right. And you can't be making this switch for kind of an unknown. And then the whole thing blows up here. You got to make sure you know what you're doing. I'll be curious to see if they go internal hire, right?

Chris Costerick's been in that building for forever. Johnny Holland's been in that building for forever. That's their pass rush coach and their linebackers coach. the other name like interviewed this cycle that is interesting to me because of the way he coaches defense and the way the defense in league is heading

is Rex Ryan which I don't love the vibes on but I had no idea where you were going I thought you were going to say Brandon Staley honestly that's what I thought I mean like Staley yeah I mean so like I think Staley is like a decent defensive coach I do think he's a good defensive coach

I think he needs a year off I don't think it would benefit from that I think Staley, the pressure that Staley cracked under as the head coach of the Chargers might be less than the pressure he would experience as Kyle. That's true. I'm sorry I'm laughing. Absolutely true. Yeah, I agree.

I'm sorry I'm laughing at Ben's game. Hey, Brandon, you need a year off, buddy. I think Brandon could use a break. Rex, man, like a lot of like the Blitz stuff, a lot of the crowding the line and creating pressure by sending guys from depth that, you know, some pressure world. like Rex is a grandfather, a lot of that stuff. And so if you're trying to go the way

the league is heading with a known commodity like the Cowboys did with Mike Zimmer, you could do worse than Rex Ryan, a sentence I did not anticipate myself saying any time in the near future. But I do believe. Ben, you put with heat today. Can we recap all the takes that Ben has had?

Quarterbacks are overrated and stink. The most important issue of the offseason is the hip-drop tackle. And Rex Ryan is back. Rex Ryan for 49ers, D.C. I mean, that is just some excellent podcasting. Welcome to the off season, baby. We got ideas.

I do not have a hat on, but if I had a hat on, it would be off for you. Good sir. I will say this about if I were, you know, Steve Wilkes's agent or if I were in defense of Steve Wilkes. They had bad stretches this season. They were fourth in defensive DVOA. That surprises me. Every time I look at it, that's a big body of work, a reliable statistic for the

most part. And they were fourth in defensive DVOA in the regular season. Playoffs, first two. game stunk, that's Super Bowl, again, that Super Bowl performance. Like, last year the Chiefs had eight possessions in the Super Bowl, if they had eight possessions in this Super Bowl, they had, what, a field goal on those, like, like that, that was a very good performance by Steve Wilkes and the 49ers defense in the Super Bowl, really all you could ask for.

And if you're Kyle Shanahan Hater, you could definitely spin this as he's scapegoating the defensive coordinator when his offense had like their third, you know, statistically, their third worst offensive performance of the season in the Super Bowl. Now, having said that, I think it's understandable. Like there were definitely stretches in there where I'm like, ooh, this defense, like the first two playoffs games, I mean, they were getting picked apart. There's a scenario where they losing the divisional round of the playoffs,

and it's in large part because their defense is getting absolutely carved up. So I'm kind of like he knows what's going on behind the scenes. It's a justifiable move, but I think it's also right to say, like, yeah, like Solex, like you better get someone who's going to be, like it's not a given that whoever you're going to get is, going to be better. And then at this time, next year, we're going to be saying the 49ers solve their defensive coordinator problem.

Like, this wasn't like a, not to, that might feel mean, but this wasn't like Joe Barry where it's like, I all can see what's happening here. You're probably going to upgrade with whoever you replace him with. I don't think that's what this is. I mean, the thing about Wilson is, that there's been a little, little phone conversation potentially. I don't know. Yeah.

The thing with Wilkes is he's been around for a long time, but he hasn't called defenses a lot. He's only really done it three years in the NFL. He did it one year in Carolina. know, and I think it was only, this year was might have been his second at the pro level. He did it at Missouri also, but he's also, he's been like an assistant head coach for the most part. So you can kind of see that inexperience, especially throughout the playoffs. I did think he adjusted well in the second half some games, which is a good sign. But when you're getting the game plans wrong, that's a real red flag for DC.

Like the Detroit first half, man, was like, all right, they do two things, dude. Yeah, like I understand they're ranked highly by DVOA, but they, like, that defense did not pass the more with less sniff test for me, She'll, where like, like, you know, they were Nick Bosen, Charverius Ward merchants and Fred Warner merchants out there, you know, when Bush came to shove and it came time to create something, they, you know, there wasn't a lot there coming to coach staff, my opinion. So we'll say, it's a really good pick, Stephen. I support you. I like, I like Belichick to the Niners more than Rex Rhyde the Niners. I'll go on the wreck. Rex. But it would be funny.

All right. Chill, you want to give it as yours? I don't know. They were making fun, like, are we not supposed to talk about Kurt Cousins? Even though it is like one of the biggest storylines. Talk about it. Okay. We can talk about it. Okay. Let's do it. Listen, again, I'm representing the Normies out there. So if you don't want to listen to this part, that's okay. But I was starting to put together my top 50 free agent list for the ringer.com, which you can read in the weeks ahead. And it's just hard to know what the market's going to be for Kurt Cousins, a 36-year-old quarterback coming off of an Achilles century. Like that is, you know, generally that would be

big stay away but we know they're going to be teams coaches gms who are just like this is the guy we need plug this guy into our offense and it's going to look really good and stephen i'd be curious to hear what you think about like just when you were doing the rankings this year about where you have him because i was looking at statistically and in my head when i was watching him i was like this is met like the best version of curt cousins i've seen the stats don't really back that up like i was just looking and again that's not everything but EPA per pass play success rate if you look at like his last five seasons. This was actually like a below average eight game sample compared to those five.

Like he was 10th in EPA per pass play, 16th in success race. So I was like, oh, okay. I don't know where my eyes lying to me when I was watching that Vikings offense thinking he was playing really well or is it just a case of the stats, don't tell the story in a small sample. So I'm looking at all those things. I think if you sign Kurt Cousins, you know you're getting what? Like between the 12th and 15th best starter, I would say, where the upside's going to be

kind of low, but the floor's going to be pretty high. He's not going to sink your season. And like, what's that worth on the open market? Derek Carr got $37.5 million per year last year with $60 million guaranteed from the Saints. Is there a team that's like, yeah, we'll absolutely do that? Or are they going to be like, no way at his age with coming off this injury, we're not doing that.

I tend to think whatever contract he gets, given his history of always maximizing his earning potential, it's going to be more than whatever's in my head right now. So I think it could be like that car deal. It could be higher than that car deal. And I think it's sort of a buyer beware thing. Like I could see places where it would fit one to two years with Kurt Cousins. That's going to get you to a better spot than where you're at right now. But I think with the Asian injury, there's probably more risk than maybe it seems like.

So I don't know what you guys think about that. Kirk Cousins wins that game on Sunday. I will say this. Kyle's thinking about it. But you said 12 to 15. I would put him a little bit higher than that. I would put him to like 8 to 11. And I think you're right.

And we have seen his numbers dip, but I think that's more about what's happened around him in the offense. They're not getting as much base cover three. The structure of the offense has changed. So I think he's seeing harder coverages, and though he's improved individually, his numbers have taken a step back. But I think he's a good quarterback.

We can admit that now about Kirk Cousins. He's developed into a good quarterback. I just don't know if he's good enough in the ways that matter, because we talked about earlier in the pot how much mobility matters. And though he has improved in that area, It's still not like at the baseline level that you need to be considered a top level quarterback in this era. Yeah, but if you're trying to plug and chug, Kirk is the best option. Yes, for sure.

One of the only options. Any team, yeah, any team that he lands on becomes at least like I am interested in your path to the playoffs if you do X, Y, and Z with Kirk at there. Like, he is that, that floor of quarterbacking in my opinion. Like, what's the lion's ceiling with Kirk Cousins compared to the ceiling with Jared Doff? I don't think that's different. I don't think that's different. You think that's different? I think higher, but marginally.

I don't know. The way golf played this year? If you're, if you're giving me one or the other, I'll take Kirk. But it's the, like, I don't think it's enough to like,

see, I disagree. I think over the last two years, Kirk has shown an ability to throw when he gets moved off his spot, which was not a thing in his game. And now we don't know how that's going to look with the Achilles injury.

That could be totally gone from his game. He could regress in that area. But that's a layer where, I think it's marginal between him and golf like in a vacuum, but that little layer matters a lot, especially with what the lions need because they have, you could plug in any play action quarterback into that

offense and it's going to look good. It's not going to look as good. But if you put in a play action quarterback plus, which I think Kirk Cousins has developed into, I think it just takes another step forward. I like play action plus. Sounds like a streaming service. Exactly. We've improved

play action. Now bring it to you in a bundle with lower rates. I think the team Solac mentioned a couple months ago that is still interesting to me is the Pittsburgh Steelers. I mean, that's one where we're not like, oh, is it marginal? It's like, no, no, this guy is going to be a lot better than the guy you have now. And you have a coordinator there that could probably help, you know, would kind of play to your strengths and you could potentially have a good defense. You have a good head coach. I think that's probably the most interesting landings.

And honestly, staying with the Vikings is sort of interesting, you know, with Brian Flores, as the defensive coordinator and you still have talent at wide receiver, you have good offensive tackles. But those were kind of the teams that came to mind when I was thinking about where he might end up. But more than anything, I just think it's going to be a big number where everyone's going to go, what?

Kirk Cousins got what again? And there's the career earnings. Kurt Cousins, guaranteed money. Kurt Cousins. All that stuff is kind of good going to be blown up when he signs. He kind of said that. He's been talking about his contract. And he said, well, the total value doesn't matter as much as the structure matters.

he just wants that fully guaranteed money. Kirk, man, Kirk is first team, all pro CTCs, baby. Kirk's been on some deals. I ran into, and I was walking through one of the casinos in Las Vegas last week, and I was with, I was with my boyfriend, and we ran into Mike McCartney, Kirk's. Sick boyfriend, Greg.

Oh, thanks, Ben. We ran into Mike McCartney Kirk's agent, and we just said hi, and we were chatting for a little bit. We're walking away. Dude, you know, I was also there, right? Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was president.

I was walking with you. I was wondering what story you were telling. I was there at that time. Oh, my God. That's so good. The real tough was because you know who Mike McCartney is, but Bobby doesn't know who Mike McCartney is. So we walk away and he's like, who was that guy? I'm like, that's Kurt Cousins' agent.

That's one of the all-time great bag getters in the NFL world. And Ben Solek, who was. there with us was also present. Huge for me. You can recognize that guy on site, Ben? Yeah, I met him when I was in college. He interviewed me for a job with his agency. Well, now, what of my luck?

Did you get it? Nope. Because I didn't like Luke Flock and he did. What's up? What an alternate path? Ben Solac working for an NFL agency. Oh, I'm right here. But his Luke Falk next week

just a ticket to that. shout out Mike McCartney But alas, instead I'm podcasting. I'm being made fun of for caring about hip-hop. It's a better life. Trust me on that one. I'm sorry, I forgot you were there. Talk for me, man.

Okay. Well, I'll try to recover. I'll give you guys mine because I think I'm the only one left. So, Ben, I know you don't love the dynasty talk with the chiefs, but I'm going to make us do it a little bit. Because, look, I, I, I, think I, to me, this is the Super Bowl that squarely says the NFL is in the midst of another denastic era in the AFC. And so what's interesting to me this offseason is how the rest of the

conference responds. Because a few years ago when Brady's career with the Pats was dying down, that's when you saw all of those AFC teams making big moves, drafting quarterbacks. The Ravens end up with Lamar. The Jets drafts Sam Darnold, which is different, but whatever, it still happened. Josh Allen of the Bills, Joe Bro to the Bengals, Trevor Lawrence, you know, Mahomes to the Chiefs falls into this.

And what happened is that now Mahomes is the new one, right? Like, he's in his prime. This season to me, you know, I do honestly take your point, Ben, about how we should be talking about the Chiefs' defense. events more than we are. And some of the sort of Mahomes' inevitability is actually just a sort of blinders going up against the real reason that they were able to withstand some of the offensive difficulties this season and the real way that they made their way through a really tough

playoff path and ultimately won the Super Bowl again. But that's the best quarterback in football. That's a team that if there's a team that you can sort of pencil into the AFC championship game, basically every year. That, to me, that's who they are. And that has a lot of influence about how other teams specifically in their conference are going to act and are going to build their rosters. And so just this offseason,

that's got to influence how New England thinks about the number three pick. It's got to influence how Miami is thinking about this offseason when they're totally capped out. They've got a decision to make on Tua, who's entering the last year of his rookie deal. It's got to influence how the Jets start preparing for what they do. when this Rogers deal is up in two years. It's got to influence how the Titans go about rebuilding.

It's got to influence what the Broncos think their plans are once they, which we assume is coming soon, release Russell Wilson, which they have to do ahead of March 18th, or they own a bunch of guaranteed money for 2025. It's going to have an impact on how a lot of other teams behave. and now if we look at the Brady era sort of as a guide, it's not like those other teams

we're like, well, screw it, we can't win any games, so let's not try. But the implication of a lot of moves then was in order to win this is the team that we have to beat. So the example that I would use with,

with the Patriots was, you know, later in that dynasty, you saw run on safeties being drafted by AFC's teams because they wanted someone to cover wrong. Whatever the sort of allegory to that, with this Chiefs team.

And it might not be quite as apparent because if I were in that position, what I would want is load up on pass rush, which is something teams do in the draft sort of anyway, so the signal of that is not going to be as obvious. But this to me is the first year when I really think pretty high

up on the sort of list of considerations, especially if you're in the division, but if you're in the AFC broadly, is just like how do we think about goals and and roster needs when there's just always a little kernel of a thought in the back of your mind of like, oh, if we're going to, we're even going to get to the Super Bowl, we have to beat that team and we have to figure out how to do it. I think it's almost like the opposite approach where you're loading up on certain types of defenders to stop them. And it's let's let up on offense and just try to outscore them because that's the way to beat them right now. because it has flipped for them. They are a defense first team.

They were 11th in EPA during the regular season on offense. You can outscore them. If you put up 30 points, it's going to be really hard for them to keep up because they don't have this explosive running game. They don't have the receivers they can rely on down to down to move the chains. So you really force Mahomes into pressing. And we saw in that Raiders game on Christmas, what happens when he presses?

That's when you see the mistakes. That's when we've seen him throw balls into coverage when the offense goes into these long stretches where they're not scoring points. And I just don't think, like, if you try to win with their same formula, kind of like what we saw Baltimore try to do, you have a better chance of losing to them right now

than you do if you try to outscore them. Just don't have a quarterback. You have to have a quarterback, though. You can't have to a quarterback that you can attack with a certain game plan and they don't have a plan B. If you have a quarterback like CJ Stroud, for instance, and you give them a great defense,

I think you have a better chance going up against the Chiefs. I wonder. The other thing I would say that, like, I think you also really want to be able to do against the Chiefs in this iteration of them is be able to control game script and game flow, right? Because they're a lot less capable of being like, oh, no, we're down 17 in the second half. What should we do?

Touchdown, touch, touchdown. Oh, we're up four. That was crazy. They don't have that in their bag as much. And they're going to spend this off season trying to get that back in the bag. There's no question about it. but Tyree Kill's not coming around the corner. Travis Kelsey isn't getting the, you know,

elixir of youth. Like, like, it's going to take them a little bit to build back into that. And so I think one of the things, like you obviously want to be able to score and put them in a deficit, but you also really want to be able to, as she'll brought up, but the stat limit their possessions, right? Because through eight possessions, the Niners have the chiefs, they had them beat.

But Andy and Pat are pretty smart there on the other sideline. They're going to figure something out, right? And so you really want to be able to shorten that game and limit them of the possessions you get. So basically, like, it's have a good quarterback, be able to run the football, get a good pass rush, also be able to cover. It's build a good team.

Like, that's the, do everything. But the one thing that I think doesn't get talked about a lot that needs to is that idea of you really want to be able to control game flow. And the best way to stop Mahomes to keep on the sideline. I feel like throughout the playoffs, there were a lot of coaches talking about the offense. And Mahomes are like, oh, they have that other guy on the other sideline. And when you have him, you know you've got to score every chance you get.

But I don't think the Chiefs were like that this year. And I thought a lot of teams kind of like psych themselves out and kind of played into that mindset when you didn't really have. to do that against the Chiefs. They scored over 30 points like what? One time in the last like three months of the season. So I wonder how many seasons that lasts. Yeah, I don't think it lasts very long.

I think they're able to recover. But I do think there is going to be a small window where they're kind of trying to find how to get back to the 2018, 2019 version of the offense because this, like they won the Super Bowl with this, but I don't think this is sustainable. that that's yeah i mean that is like a very interesting question is how do the chiefs like view themselves after this season are they like hey we were able to do it that way or are they like let's never freaking make it that hard again on offense because that's kind of where i'm at i would be like

all right that was great but i don't want to do it i don't want to make it that hard uh ever again and even just like free agency chris jones is a free agent legerius need as a free agent like these are two their two best uh defensive players like is it going to look like is it going to look like that next year, how do they allocate their resources at offensive tackle at wide receiver? Travis Kelsey is another year older. So for a team that is like, yeah, a dynasty and is always in the mix, it's kind of a fascinating offseason still because it could look completely different by the time we get to the first week of September of next season. My thing is just like, and we all love Spags, but who are the two most important people to that organization? It's Andy

Reed and it's Patrick M. Holmes. What side of the ball today? Is there? they're bread buttered on. I don't think this team fundamentally is like, yep, we're, we are defense-oriented, man. Like, that's the next five years. I just, I don't see it. All right, squad.

Anything else? Any other, any other takes? Anyone's just itching to get out there? Ben, any other, uh, competition committee? Procedural penalties or just, just, just acting like this is like the most esoteric thing. It's all anybody talked about, like half way through the season.

I don't know what planet you live on where you think all anybody talks about is. Nobody real talked about it. The owners, Stephen. What about the turf? The turf issue. Who cares what they do? That's more important. No, my heavens. The turf gets a by heavens, but hip-drop tackle, that's your clutching pearls?

I think somebody hired a bot farm and just sent them after Ben Solac with nothing but hip-drop tackle takes, and that's how got here. All right. Well, all kidding aside, and Ben, I'm sorry if, I'm sorry if shots were fired on this podcast. I'm going to talk to Merr about this and express my feelings in a comforting and positive way. You are loved and valued as you all are. Yet again, just enjoy it. I'll be together and get to do a podcast. Speaking of podcasts, many podcasts coming up on on this very feed.

Extra point taken. Mondays and Fridays. Dual threat on Wednesdays. We are all actually off next week, but the week after that coming back and we'll pick back up with that schedule. So subscribe to the Ringar NFL show feed for all of that if you aren't already.

A little weird if you're listening to this podcast and aren't subscribed. But fix it if that's the case. The draft show. Ben. Heard of it. What's going on there? Yeah, Ringar NFL Draft Show. It's a separate feat, so go subscribe to it.

Me, Danny Hyvitt, Sandy Kelly, and Craig Holbeck. We just talked all things draft. We just did a quarterback need index ranking. We're all of 32 teams, kind of who's his quarterback interested, who's quarterback committed, so on and so forth. Got a combine preview coming up next week as we approach Indianapolis in two weeks. We're doing mock drafts, NFL drafts at theringer.com. It's a good time.

Love it. All right. And the Ringer NFL YouTube channel, too. Everyone should go subscribe to that. And I think that's all we got for now. But lots of good stuff to look out for. All right. Thank you all.

Thank you Stephen Ben Sheel. Delightful to pod with you. Thank you, as always, to Stefan Anderson for production on this episode. Thank you to Eduardo Ocampo for his work on socials. Thank you to Connor Nevins and Arjuna, Ramgapal, for their additional production supervision. And to you for listening. Must be 21 plus and present in Select.

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