The Ringer NFL Show - Taking a Look at the Top Quarterback Prospects and Headline Roulette | Dual Threat

Episode Date: February 28, 2024

Nora and Steven are joined by Austin Gayle at the NFL combine in Indianapolis to discuss the top quarterback draft prospects and which players best describe their draft profiles. Then they spin a wheel full of the top headlines from the combine and give their thoughts on what coaches and executives are saying in Indy (43:47). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Steven Ruiz Guest: Austin Gayle Producers: Isaiah Blakely and Eduardo Ocampo Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey there, humanoids. This is David Shoemaker. The pro wrestling world is currently on fire. And so we've got you covered five days a week on the ringer wrestling show. Every Monday and Thursday, hang out with me and Kaz on The Masked Man Show. And this is Peter Rosenberg, the host of Cheap Heat. Join me and my guys, Stack Guy Greg and Dipperstein on Tuesdays and Fridays. We talk wrestling, we have bagel breakdowns, mage interviews, and so much more. And Ben Cruz here. Come kick it with me, Cal and Brian on Wednesday. Worldwide, where we hit the most interesting headlines and even react to some of mass mans, cheap heats, or even your hottest tics. Don't tap out. Tap in to the ringer wrestling show feed. Now on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And stay mage, everyone.

Worldwide. Very special edition of Triple Threat. I'm Nora Princiotti. I am joined, as always, by Stephen Ruiz. And today, for one day and one day only. You're never allowed back. Wow. Already being told him not allowed back on.

I'll take it. I'll take it. I'll take it honestly. It's got to be a one hit wonder. I'm happy being a one hit wonder. Welcome to the pod. I really appreciate it. I love this pod.

So I'm excited to be on it. Thank you. We're actually, you know what, probably not for one day and one day only. Because as I think our listeners all know, but just in case they don't, it's worth reiterating. You are a draft Nick, a guru,

a studier of the tape and the prospects and the guys. I'd say so, but maybe not any more so than anybody at the ring or right. Everyone's grinding the tape. I know you're grinding the tape late. I'm not, I'm not grinding that seventh round tape, AG. It was very hard. It was very hard to get through Bo Nix's tape, I will say that. You're a hater on Bo Nix for no reason.

I feel like we'll have to talk about it a little bit later in the show, but I got a little excited by some of the placement, some of the throws, avoiding sacks. What's wrong with avoiding sacks in this league? Okay, we'll save it. We'll save it for them. That's why you're not allowed back. But so we're in Indy. It's Combine Week.

And, you know, we've started getting to the podiums, talking to coaches, talking to GMs. Prospects will go later in the week. Austin is going to be sort of one of our draft correspondence, I think, as we head into the next month plus, better part of two months, basically, before we get to the draft. And that's going to be great. So you actually will be back. I shouldn't have said what I said. It was a lie. I lied.

I'll take it. the pod. That's right, Stephen. It's happened before. It'll probably happen again. But we're excited about that. And we thought that we would do sort of a two-part show, part sort of looking ahead at those prospects and part just going through everything that's happening in indie this week at the Combine, starting with an interesting idea that Stephen brought up the other night as we were all, you know, paling around as we do, high velocity at the J.W. Marriott here in Indianapolis. Pounding waters.

Pounding waters. I was really pounding waters and was made fun of for doing that. But you know what? Hydration is key. So I stand by my choices. But Stephen, why don't you preface sort of what you pitched to me as a really interesting thesis for how we can kind of look at the quarterback prospects and this quarterback class? Well, I don't think any quarterback gets drafted in a vacuum.

Like, there are things that happen throughout the league that influence that. We always talk about the NFL being a copycat. league and that extends to so many different facets of the league and i think draft prospects i think that's one where it happens at any position but obviously quarterback gets the most attention it's the most important position on the field and i think that it's easier to mess up when you're following in another team's footsteps rather than doing something i guess that breaks the mold of what typically gets done in the um the interview room today You hear people walking around and asking coaches, you know, going up to Andy Reid and saying,

what do you know now about looking at quarterbacks that you maybe didn't before you drafted Mahomes? Or how do you think that quarterback evaluation has changed since you got into the league? And you hear people like Reed or like John Harbaugh said, you know, well, when we drafted Lamar, a lot of people thought that that was a bad idea. no one's really saying that that was a bad idea now. And Reed was talking about there's guys who might get drafted highly because of the success that Mahomes has had that probably wouldn't have in the pre-Mohom's. And Reed brought up Lamar too. Like he brought up another team's quarterback. And he was like, I said it back then.

Like teams were saying, or not teams, but people who were saying he should play another position. He was like, I think he should be a quarterback. He was right. So I just think it's a really interesting idea just because we do see, you know, you see some. something happen once, right? You feel like it can happen again. And when you're in this draft space that it has a little bit of a crapshoot element to it, it has even more of an element of trying to make sense of just so much data and

so much information and so much projection that it's definitely something that we see around the league where they say, oh, now we're in the Mahomes era. So you need these three things to mimic that type of success. But there's other quarterbacks and I won't spoil because I think we're going to go through we're going to go through the prospects. We're going to go through the six quarterback prospects that are on Danny Kelly's top 100 big board, which I think is the be all and end all of draft evaluation. Of course.

Because sometimes it is, right? I think the Lamar and Mahomes stories tell us about a league embracing some schematic stuff from colleges, an embrace of athletic traits of an emphasis on tools and mobility and the ability to change defenses that has proven out to be a really good way to look at quarterbacking. There are also probably some fallacies in the stories that maybe we could tell ourselves about other prospects. So I just think it's a cool framework. So that's what we're going to do first here. Shall we start? Let's do it. With I think the consensus number one prospect in this draft, who's Caleb Williams.

Who Stephen explains the Caleb Williams draft profile? I mean, this one's the easy one. It's Patrick Mahomes. Sure. Like Caleb Williams is a prospect in any draft class, but without Mahomes, the Mahomes model. And I would even throw like Lamar, a little bit of Lamar in there, a little bit of Josh Allen in there. I don't think he's a consensus top five pick and he's certainly

not QB1 in this draft with a guy like May out there, like the prototype out there. He's six what is he, 6.1 and a half, maybe 62. He's not a big guy. He doesn't play the position like we typically have seen it played in past decades. Those guys that go

number one typically. I would maybe Kyler Murray's in there a little bit. I think a lot of these guys over the last five years have made it possible for Caleb Williams to be QB1 with a bullet. It's a really interesting question without getting too far ahead of ourselves.

Like five, 10 years ago, like five years ago even. But let's call it 10. What does this, if this draft class is coming out and you have to go in some leaps and bounds to make that make sense with how the college game is played and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But if these guys are presented to the NFL in, you know, 2016.

2017 when Mahomes is drafted. Sure. I feel like that's the model. Yeah. what does this ranking list look like? Because it probably looks pretty different in a number of ways. But starting with where Williams would fit in and how the league would look at him.

I still feel like he would be a coveted prospect for the arm and like the armed talent. I think that before Mahomes, and he wasn't even the QB1 in his own class, before Mahomes, there was, it was less a guarantee of a team saying, oh, he's got a big arm. Let me work with that. Let me play with that. Let me try and do something with that. I think it was like,

oh, he's got a big arm, but I don't see anything else. And can I do it? And I think with Caleb, a little bit smaller, I think maybe people are bringing up his height. And I think the other thing is that all the out of structure stuff, people are saying,

can he do the inside of structure stuff? I think that's what a lot of the quarterback evaluation was pre-Bohombs. And then Mahomes, Allen, I think added two things. Mahomes adds this whole flavor of, if he's got a big arm, and he can make these plays out of structure and make these throws off five forms.

specifically the throws that you've written about for the ringer, like where you're off your base, flailing back and can still put it downfield. I think teams are like, I want that talent. Let me work with everything else. Before that, I don't think we were saying that.

And then with Allen, it's not just the talent that he had. It was also the developmental arc that I think teams started to attach themselves to. And that, like, we can take a kid out of Wyoming who has a rocket arm, really good athleticism,

but really nothing else, some bad accuracy on tape, some bad decisions on tape. And that two, three-year trajectory, that works for us. I think there's some fallacies in the Josh Allen one. I don't think everyone turns that 2-3 arc.

But I do think with Williams, and because Mahomes was drafted in the success that he's had, because Josh Allen was drafted in the success that he's had, it's easier for teams to say, let's find a way, not to mimic evaluating that talent and selecting that talent, but find a way to mimic developing that time. I think that's always undervaluated

or under-discussed in the whole pre-draft process as well, especially with quarterbacks. And I think that the NFL has a bit of a development issue because only, you know, there's a whole conversation on do you sit guys, do you play guys right away? I think it's easier in today's NFL to break a quarterback than make a quarterback if you draft them very highly and have the expectations. And I don't think that's gone away. I don't know if anyone's been able to show that. Obviously, like Jordan Love's sitting, Patrick Mahomes sitting, there's some people saying like maybe this should be the way.

I don't know. I think overall Mahomes and Allen, both those quarterbacks. Those are also good teams, right? Yeah, exactly. Those were stable franchises, decent rosters. And even those two plans were different. Like Mahomes sat for 16 games. Jordan Love sat for like 30,

eight games or something. I don't know. I think that the, it's as important about like identifying the talent about, you know, what you like and what you think is working in the NFL. I think last year's combine, we heard a lot of coaches talking about escapeability and the second play and trying to

extend things. I think what also needs to be discussed is like what exactly is the right way to enter these guys into the league? Because I mean, I mean, with Bryce Young, right? I think Bryce Young's an interesting quarterback. Maybe I'm getting off tangent here. But like, Bryce Jones is an interesting quarterback to talk about it.

Okay, it's interesting quarterback to talk about because is that someone that maybe benefits from sitting? Or is that someone who maybe benefits from going a little bit later and expectations not being as high? Sitting? He gets even shorter. That's true. That's true. Booster seat. We need a booster seat.

So point well taken. And we should stress that like these are not comps, right? This is about the stories that we and the league sort of tells itself that influence. where guys get drafted. But from a more compy perspective, I am curious because, Stephen, you've written about the off-platform throws

and about how if you look around the league at who's having success, that ability to like throw that fade away and throw when, you know, whether it's about core strength or whether it's about how you control your arm angles, you can make those plays

is such an essential quality. Where is Caleb for you when you want to take? I would have called myself crazy if I heard myself saying this three weeks ago but Mahomes is the right comp. I know we're not doing comps, but that is the right comp for him. And I think the out of structure stuff,

what people I think get wrong, this is just my opinion, is that you're not asking yourself what's the other play to be made. With Zach Wilson, there was other plays to be made and he was still doing stuff. With Caleb,

when you watched them, especially this last year, that offense was not good. And I mean that from top. to bottom like the offensive lines wasn't good the receivers weren't good the play calling wasn't good the design wasn't good and they scored a bunch of points because of this quarterback and because of what he did out of structure i found myself like i think it's another thing that's been under discussed too about the USC offense is that the design's not good schemes not good no one's getting open and

that's what often more often led to have the highest average time to throw of any quarterback in college football this year i think a lot of people were saying he's dodging things or missing throws and it's like You turn on, you watch the tape and you'll see immediately, like, Jerry Rice's son just doesn't have it. You know, like, it's not working, right? Like, it's not working the way that they expect it. And I also think even beyond, like, the talent of the receiving core, how often were you watching USC and seeing, like, no one come open and also all short, in immediate routes? And he's coming off at super quick. Like, there are times where I feel like Caleb moved quicker in the progressions.

He's almost expecting them not to get open, almost expecting the play not to work. I remember writing, I don't remember who I was talking to about it, but I remember saying to someone that a big part of the Caleb Williams conversation is going to be, can you distinguish the plays where he is moving too fast with the progressions wrongfully? Or when he's like, I better get out of here because this isn't working and I need to make a play because my team sucks. And like Caleb Williams, USC should have been like a playoff competitive team this year because of the talent that Caleb Williams is. And he was hamstrung by obviously a bad defense. everyone knows that who watch USC this year, but also a poorly designed offense with bad skill players. And I don't know.

I think that I saw a little bit of that in the beginning of the season. I was like, oh, is this going to play out? And then as you watch Thursday, the end, the UCLA game at the end of the year is a disaster in terms of how they prepare for that game, the offensive structure, who's getting open? And like, when you get beat that bad by your key rival and like it's not even close, that's me, I mean, even in their home stadium, like, I don't know. Like, you could just tell that the offense was not there.

It was not there for Caleb, and I think that you need to be able to distinguish that. You could tell without getting anywhere remotely close to the like very dumb discourse about him having feelings. Like you can tell that points a season of war on him. Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. I can't even get into that discourse. It's just ridiculous. I hate, I hate how much.

We are scared of them. It reminds me a little bit of some of the cave on Tibado stuff coming out. We're like, people are like, this is different. I hate it. Right, right. That's what it is. This is different. He's wearing a dress.

I'm out. This is different I hate it as maybe the more appropriate explanation for drop paradigms. All right. Speaking of not different. Let's keep it rolling. There is, I'm going in, I'm going in, in Danny's order here. Although I guess it's probably right to point out that there's starting to be a fair bit of intrigue over whether Drake May is really QB2 in this class or not. But we'll put Drake May up next.

who's our, how do we tell the story of Drake May in historical terms? We were trying to think of maybe some of the comps in the NFL. Like Justin Herbert, even like Josh Allen, I've seen some people compare him to Josh Allen online because of some of the bad decision making but like I don't know, you can't just say every bad decision

from like a strong on quarterbacks of Josh Allen. That just doesn't make, that's not how this works. Like to me, it's Christopher Columbus who sailed the ocean blue in 1942. Hold on, hold on. Not 1942. I know not 1942. What is it?

In 1,492. Yeah. Well, I mean, essentially it's just like every white quarterback ever sets the precedent for like if you're big, white, strong armed, you're going to be coveted in the class. And I feel like that's what that's the nutshell of what Drake May is. And I think he's still a guy that is getting better. Still a guy that in my opinion, I don't like the Herbert comparisons because I don't see the athlete that Herbert was. And I don't think that he's not even the athlete that Trevor Lawrence was. I'm not saying he's this level.

He's closer to Kenny Pickett than he is to Herbert in terms of an athlete. In terms of like him separating from like defenders running to the edge and being like a runner. And I know he had better Russian numbers in 2022 than he did this previous year. But that to me is like maybe a key separation of why I'm not on the Herbert stuff. But anyway, I think that the pathway for Drake made getting into the league is every big white strong on quarterback before him. Just for clarity's sake. I asked when we were planning this spot. I asked Stephen and Austin like, all right, whatever.

where were you going to go with Drake May? And it started as every big, strong-armed prototypical quarterback ever. And then it got into the history of time, the history of capitalism. And all of a sudden we ended up to Christopher Columbus. So just in case that was a little opaque for any listeners, that's how that happened. Again, I'll use the same framework. If this draft happens in 2017, I mean. He's going number one overall.

number one overall, right? Like Drake May is absolutely in 1942? Yeah. He might be there. I mean in 492, definitely. He's the president of the United States. I think that's actually true. I think that's actually true. Harding made it. He can make it.

1492. Well, he's the leader. He's leading us through World War II. Yeah. In the current NFL, is this a, in your you, Stephen, I'm curious, because you've brought me along a lot on the necessity of mobility and athletic traits and just sort of being like a complete prerequisite in the draft. Would you take Drake May?

Like, where would you take Drake May? Oh, I'd take him second. You'd take him second. And I honestly, I've like had the same take as Austin. I don't like the Herbert comparison. I don't think he's close to Herbert. I could see why you might talk yourself into that because he does have some of those impressive armed talent plays.

But I take him second. He's a good prospect. I don't know if he's a great prospect. I don't think he's Caleb. I don't think he's like generational. But for a second overall pick, I mean, Zach Wilson was the second overall pick. This guy is way better than that.

For Washington, too. Like even kind of fitting it to who has the number two overall. I mean, you are getting something they have not had in a long time in terms of what he can be and what he could be. And even right away what he can be. I think that when I was comparing him to Caleb Williams, watching the film back. And part of this is because

the offense Caleb was in, we talked about that. But I found myself consistently, even as the season progressed, he's getting the ball out faster and faster and faster. And he's the more command of the offense he had towards the end. And that's something that when we talk about Bo Nix, when we talk even about like J.J. McCarthy,

I feel like getting the ball out on time is something that grows on you when you're like watching players in the NFL at the bottom of like the league. Spoken like a true reader. When you're just watching players, you just don't know what they're doing with the ball. you know, I think sack avoidance is super important. I think avoiding negative plays, avoiding even like throwaways and stuff like that or

We are sack of wood and spilled here on the rear. We are. We are. I don't know. I think Drake May, why I liked him more and more beyond the big arm, beyond the size, it's like command of the offense gets better and better and better. I think even part of the reason why he ran less in 2023 than he did in 2022 is because he's getting the ball out and getting the ball in the right place.

And I don't know. I do think he's the number two overall player in this class. Yeah, I would say that too. Yeah. Why did I think that he was not? No, I guess I don't like the athleticism. I don't like the Herbercoms. Yeah, we're pushing back against the idea that he is close to Caleb Williams.

Because I don't even think he's in the same tier as Caleb. I think he's the number two world kick. I agree. I don't think he's in the same tier as Caleb. I think Caleb's better. I did not have that take like a month ago, but like when you watch Caleb down to down, yeah, like it becomes obvious. He does like the, because Drake May gets the credit for being the,

doing the quarterback stuff more than Caleb does, but he doesn't do it. But like, what do you think of Caleb Williams at the bar and indie? catchphrase is maybe worse than what Drake May is because Drake May is like big, you know, strong armed, it's got like Herbert in them and stuff. And people talk about Caleb's like, yeah, like the out of structure stuff. You can do what Mahomes can. But no one brings up like, dude, put Caleb on an offense that actually makes sense. And he's probably doing way better.

And like no one's even talking about the conversation between May and Kate Williams. And that's the thing when you put that much pressure on a player, play after play. And in college, it's what, 80 plays? You're going to fuck up. You're going to fuck up. And with the way that defense played, like more than a eight. That'll break it. I thought I'm breaking his

This would be my comparison. May is like, and I don't mean he's as good as this. I would say May is like 2019 Mahomes whereas Williams is the leveled up version we saw last year win the Super Bowl. Like he can do the checkdowns. He can play like a normal quarterback

where I think May like all young prospects needs to develop and get better. All right. Next step we got Jaden Daniels. Steve, you want to take this one? I think it's Lamar. And I'm not high on Daniels.

I would not comp him to Lamar Jackson, but I think the skinny runner who has track speed, the fact that Lamar hit and has won two MVP's, I think that's the reason why Daniels could go third, maybe. Otherwise, I don't get it. So how much does it have to do with size? Is this, do we have a scarred Panthers fan talking about a physical statistical outlier player at field?

afraid. Have you seen him play? That's all, he is, he is a cartoon character. Like, that's how he approaches. He's Johnny Knoxville. Is Jaden Daniels comp what Bill Pollian thought Lamar Jackson was? That's, yeah. I feel like that skinny, athletic, black quarterback that runs a lot and runs very successfully, but like everyone doubts him as a passer.

That's kind of what Lamar was coming out. I feel like people, I feel like Jane Daniels is not like as bad to what Bill Pollian thought. Like, he was telling Lamar Jackson be a running back. But like, Jane Daniels is not anywhere close to Lamar Jackson was as a pastoral. No, anywhere close. And like, a lot of that's with, like, recklessness. And even the stuff that he's gotten better at, yeah, you get better at that when you're 23, 24 years old and have played as long as he has. And I think that we always talk about in the draft process about, like, how they get better over time and going from their, you know, second to 30 or 30 or fourth year, like, you want to see that improvement.

But you want to see it in ways that, like, you don't just naturally get better by just having time on task and having reps. And I think a lot of that's like, wait, I'm realizing I have this edge over 19 year olds, 20 year old. with us experiencing me, running the ball more and doing all these things. I don't know. I feel like I like Jaden Daniels and I like the idea of like coming out of the draft with him. But like when you compare it to,

I got Jain Daniels at number three overall and I'm the Raiders and I traded two first to go get him. Because I need to go get this guy versus like say taking some of these names will bring up like either Bo Nix or Michael Pennix in the top of the second. I'm taking Nicks and Pennix at the top of the second way before I'm kind of risking a lot.

Yes. On Jane and Daniels and it's not even about just him getting better. I think the better words like him, being different. Like he has to be a different style player in the NFL. Not just better, but like how he thinks about everything. I mean, he plays like Crash Panic. I mean, he runs it. He's

running straight into defensive players and like a little bit reckless and like stuff that like won't work in the league. That's not something that you need to like improve on. That's something that like a mindset change that if you're drafted number three overall and things are shit sitting, you're going to go back to what worked. If you go back to what worked

in the league, it's going to be a disaster. And particularly, like, okay, think about it in this sense. You're not the Raiders trading up and selling the farm to get the opportunity. But say you're the Patriots and you have number three and the board goes as the board is maybe being predicted to go. And you have an opportunity to, you can take Jane Daniels or you can pass on quarterback and try to trade your pick or whatever. Do you, is the value there for you if it's just number three overall? If I'm Elliot Wolf and I'm the Patriots of three, I am sprinkling, juicing, Jaden Daniels hype everywhere, and then selling the pick to the highest bidder. Because if there is that legitimate, because we've heard, you've heard conversations here in Indy, people are saying Daniels might go too.

Daniels might be the second best quarterback in this class used by the league. I bet that's Wolf. That's Wolf. That's like, yeah. I could hear him going too. And then people are like, you got Antonio Pierce, who's looking, who obviously coached him in Arizona State, got a team that's like maybe looking to come up and likes Jaden Daniels. From there, it's like, if the Patriots come out of this draft, trading number three overall for like a King's Ransom, even just one future first, that's a, in my opinion, a bigger win than taking him at three and objectively taking a huge risk on a prospect that has a very wide range of outcomes. And I haven't said that phrase yet, and I say it too much in the draft process.

But like, every prospect has a range of outcomes. Daniels has a very wide range of outcomes. Let me push back against that. It's like, it's just not going to work. Here's my problem. You're just saying it's out or you're out. He has a mid-arm. That's what nobody will talk about.

He doesn't have a strong arm. And I think what covers it up is that he throws a good nine ball. I don't even believe in that. He has two NFL receivers on the outside. Who's the second best go-ball throw in this draft, by the way? Does he play for Washington? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Who's the best one in the NFL?

No, you've had this take for a long time. Does he have A.J. Brown and DeMonte Smith? It's funny how that turns out. Your go-ball prettiness is often. and tied to receivers making adjustments on the ball downfield. And like Roma Dunezay, who we're not gonna talk receivers,

but Washington receiver, play with Pennix, dudes makes adjustments on deep balls better than maybe anybody in this class. And that will help you so much when I feel like we came out of that semifinal, and we're gonna talk about Pennix later,

but we came out of that semi-final about Pennix, and everyone's like, is this the best deep ball thrower of the league has ever seen? And like, you're just consistently seeing a Dunezai, just like, the way he attacks the ball in the air

just makes it feel like everything's that much more accurate. With Daniels, Malik Neighbors and Brian Thomas Jr., two receivers that could go in the first round. They helped him a lot to you on some of those deep balls. Here's my comparison. Have you ever done like this thing? Like someone shoots a basket into it. Yeah, I think I have.

Oh, I see. Stephen's doing a basketball hoop with his arms. Yeah, this is bad podcasting. But the person that shot the shot doesn't get to go, I'm a good shooter. Yeah, yeah. I'm Steph Curry. True. True. I'm Steph Curry. But I think he's on the other end of that, what I asked earlier, like, why are you scrambling? And he does not scramble to throw. My comp for him is Jalen hurts. A skinny one who can't survive. One tush push. It is not necessarily playing behind the Eagles offensive life. Does he squat? What's the number that everyone says?

Does he squat 600 pounds? I don't think so. I don't think I don't think Jane Daniels has it. Can you imagine? But he had, I saw some stat. I think it was 43% of his snaps that dropbacks that end outside the pocket and in a scramble. Wow. It can't be that high. And his pressure to sack rate is another big red flag. He has, I think, a 24% pressure to sack rate in his career, and it's not something that has gotten progressively better, even going from Arizona State to LSU. And of any quarterback taken in the first round over the last five years, it'd be the highest. And, like, that pressure to sacrate, and this is former PFF guy, love the data, love what's translatable

and, like, what actually, like, goes to the league. Pressure to sacrate is one of the most consistent or, like, high correlating stats from going college to the NFL because- we were talking about this with a couple weeks ago, yeah. It factors in so much, right? Are you throwing the ball away when you have to throw the ball away? Yeah. Are you scrambling out of the pocket? Obviously, it's a bigger part of that. And are you getting the ball out on time? And those three things. A lot of that's pocket mobility. A lot of that's also just like pocket awareness and having presence in the pocket and making those right decisions. There is a play and everyone's already sent it out on Twitter a hundred times where like snaps the ball doesn't see what he likes for

whatever reason. And like Johnny Knoxville jackass dives over the top and like it's slammed in the turf and that you results to that in the league. It's not going to end well. The Florida State play. Yeah, yeah. The Florida State play. He jumps into the air. It's a pile. Like at the line of scrimmage. This isn't the open field. It's insane. You can't play like that. You can't. Decisions, decisions.

Okay, next up we have J.J. McCarthy. Who wants to take it? I feel like I have to take this one. Go ahead, go ahead. Because you disagree with this, right? A little bit. I don't know. I'm a little bit different.

Fight, fight, fight. It's Brock Birdie. He is not a first round prospect. And I think he ends up slipping into the first round. I really think that happens. And I like, I like, I like J.J. McCarthy as a prospect. I've liked him since like October. I was like slacking you about it.

I like him. But the undersized frame, the leadership qualities, he won. He's Brock Purdy. I think every, like, GM that sees him is going to see Brock Purdy with talent. Like more talent. Sorry, that wasn't a dig at Purdy. McCarthy is a good athlete. He has some zip on his throws.

I don't know if he has armed talent. Like, I don't think he puts touch on passes, and that's my biggest great with him. But I do think he has a good athlete. He has, like the way you talk yourself into Purdy being like a top 10 quarterback is the way you talk yourself into JJ being a first round pick. He has the, he has like the Wilson kind of arm talent, right? Yes. You're Zach Wilson.

Conditional. Conditional arm talent. Where you're seeing some of these throws where he has zip and you're like, man, this guy can like really, really throw it at the 10 to 15 yard level. But then, you know, there's a lot of stuff where you're seeing the kind of hitch he needs to take to get it down the field and that kind of stuff I think is when you're like, wait, does he actually have it? like this sounds like I sound like an asshole but like you watch just a handful of his deep

throws and you can kind of immediately see that like watching your when you're watching the tape Nora I know you know this too but like when you're watching the tape when you're diving deep you want to look at like what's the pocket how muddy is the pocket like and this is where you get into off platforms and throws off platform throws and stuff it's like if you have a wide open pocket and you're taking like two hitches into this deep ball and it's still coming up short that's where it's like you don't have it well but if you're in a very nice pocket and you're able to rip it the 10 to 15 yard level a lovely pocket if you're in a lovely pocket and you can rip it the 10 to 15 yard level people were like, whoa, nice zip. I agree that it's not, it's not where it is.

It's like Zach Wilson levels. But Brock Pretty was never hyped up as like a top 10 pick. Like the, you know what I mean? That's where I kind of, you know, it's success. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. Less so like how Brock Purdy got drafted, right?

It's we just watched Brock Purdy have this, this couple of years in the league that, you know, yeah. Had the commanders talking about. Sam Hell's got a little Brock Party in him. I yeah, I think that maybe this isn't translating to the success

in the league and why you're convincing yourself in the JJ McCarthy I know that's not the exercise but like kind of reminds me of like Connor Cook at Michigan State

I know who I know it was a second round pick but like someone who like won a ton at Michigan State broke all those records people thought that like that winner mentality and maybe didn't have everything you wanted but you could win with it Mack Jones I thought was similar to that

and I think he has more zip on the throws in what Mac Jones was putting out at Alabama but like very good team winning a lot of football games vastest stuff that people like. Now, Success in League, maybe Brock Purdy's right. It's hard to think of a player as a, first thing I'm thinking of is like frame.

Like I don't see like a JJ McCarthy frame. Also like with McCarthy, a lot of, a lot of what I feel like I hear as the knock is like, did he kind of passenger princess his way into this? Like how much was he actually relied on and someone who was captaining the ship? Yeah.

I'm trying to think of who the right comp is there where, I mean, maybe it's always, it is Mac Jones, kind of, where like you have success at the highest level. Or like, look, I know this is loaded, but like, without making a comp between how they actually play football to a, yeah, that's good. Yeah, there's like a lot of consistent success, a lot of like. That was a little different because he had the hype as a recruit. Like, he came in as like a guy.

Yeah, and longer. Yeah, that's a good question. But, like, I'll pose the question, 2017. Where does JJ get drafted? Yeah, without seeing the success of, like, skinnier zip quarterbacks, maybe he's not even being, you know, even talked about us. But, like, he's still won. Yeah, 2017.

We really, we wanted some, we wanted a thick quarterbacks. Yeah, we wanted a big, like, Deshaun Kaiser. That was my QB1 in 2017. I still believe just he needs a chance. We still believed in pedigree, though, and still believed in, like, winning at a Blue Blood program. He won an adie. I feel like every...

You sound like you're saying that, like, you miss those days. No, I don't miss those days. We're losing recipes. That would men were men. Back when winning mattered. No, I feel like for me, it's hard to think of it because... He got Stetson Bennett. Yeah, drafted.

Like, Stetson Bennett is a UDFA. If Zach Wilson was good, J.J. McCarthy would be number one. That's the opposite. That's the opposite segment. Like the horror story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The reason J.J. McCarthy's doubted is Zach Wilson. Okay.

Okay. But you, so... But I think we do still value, like, a blue blood program. We do. I absolutely think that that's true. I think that's part of where we are with McCarthy. I'll say this. J.J. McCarthy loses to Washington.

And he has a similar game to what Panics had. I think that, I think that, I don't think that J.J. McCarthy has talked about as like a top 10, top 10. No, no, it's open. And like, there you go. Like, right there is literally the problem. That's such a problem. Like, overrating wins like that is vile. I feel like it's such bad process for evaluating quarterings.

We are, we don't respect wins on this podcast. We actually only, we only respect pressure to sacrate. Pressure ratio, EPA, it's not wins, okay? We had the higher pressure to sac rate in the Super Bowl because that's the actual Super Bowl. If it's the 49ers, I'm going to stop covering the NFL right now. All right. So we've got Bone Eggs and Michael Pedig's left over. And I think you guys wanted to sort of tackle these two as a pair.

I'll start with Nix. I think that... Your boy. I like, I kind of like Bo Nix. And here's why. Well, first I'll do the exercise. I think that a similar...

My name is Austin Gale and I kind of like Bo Nix. Hi, Austin. Kenny Pickett is the pathway here where guy has success late in his career, late in his age developmental curve. And you're like, wait, we saw it.

We saw it a little bit. He was finally figuring things out. No, it wasn't. perfect, but it's something I can get behind. I still think Bo Nix could go at the end of the first. Now, Kenny Pickett, I think, maybe slips in the second. Five quarterbacks could go in the first round. I think there's a chance. I think there's a chance. Just because

I could see a team wanting to get their fifth year option with Bo Nix or maybe getting their fifth year option with Michael Penix. I don't know. That's like always the kind of the different piece there, but it's definitely not going to be a team. I know. Do the, do the Will Levis thing. The Will Levis thing is so good. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Just wait a little. And then it's not such a big deal. They throw one touchdown and the fan base falls in love with it.

It's such a good take. I want to steal the value, the value. That's actually a good take. And I think Bo Nix in the second, I'm happy about that. I'm happy about Bo Nix in the second. I'm not a big Bo Nix guy, but I agree with that take. Day two, I'm fine with. Yeah, I'm fine.

My comp for him, not this exercise, but my comp is Derrick Carr. And that's why I despise his game. Like he's going to throw a checkdown on the Hail Mary like Derrick Carr did. He's going to throw it away on a 4. down like Derrick Carr did several times and that's why I just can't get on board and I like I think he has decent

traits like he's a he's got good size he can he can move a I don't think he's going to be like a run threat at the next level his arm is good enough I will say that but maybe not even as good as Derek Carr's though no no yeah his dad was coming out of Fresn't state that's why it's so

frustrating watching Derek Carr is because like he can run like his combine performance is like really good. Yeah. 80th percentile. He has an arm. He can throw with touch. He knows X's a nose.

He can work a pocket sometimes when no one's going to touch him. When he just isn't freaking out by pressure. And then he doesn't. He just says like, nah, I'm just going to check it down. And that's what I see with Bo Nix.

The other thing with Nix is a lot of hitches unnecessarily. Like a lot of like, I'm going to throw it. Not pump fakes. Second guessing a little bit. It's not pump fakes. It's like not intentional at all. It's like, oh, I thought this guy was open

and he isn't. I'm going to pull back the ball. Word of the offseason. anticipatory. That's not there a ton. It's not there a ton. Not even the fake anticipation like a couple quarterbacks that I won't name. For me, if you told me

Bo Nix in year one or even by year two is as productive as Derek Carr is in terms of just like production, not style or anything, that's why I think there's a little value. I think that I think because of how old he is and because of the success we've already seen and how much he got better. And I know I said that about Jay Daniels. You don't want to see people get better. I do think he got better in

terms of like pocket presence, comfortability in the pocket, all that stuff. He has one of the best pressure to sack ratios in this class. It's a fake offense. It doesn't know. That sat doesn't count for him.

He's the one where I don't care. It doesn't move me. I don't know. I think I can see myself wanting to get Nix at the top of the second. And I'm fine with that. If Kenny Pickett went at the top of the second, maybe he doesn't have all this pressure

crashing down on him. But also like some of these, look, I'm always a fan of teams within reason in terms of the cost to acquire. just like throwing darts at the dartboard at quarterback. Just take some swings, get someone who you can see what you have. The other thing is like when you wait a little bit and even like I think the second round is fine for this.

If Bow Nix ends up being a decent backup, somebody who, you know, you can have on your roster, he is not going to make huge mistakes. He's going to be careful with the ball. He's going to throw it away on, you know, fourth and long when we need a Hail Mary. that's okay if you reach and five guys go in the first round like statistics tell us

history tells us there are going to be some some bummer stories in that and so if we look at I mean the way that things shaped up last year was really interesting and that kind of restraint like it's good do it

everybody chill out if you want to talk about losing recipes it's the second round quarterback. You know, the guy, like, you're like, hey, we don't think he's a first round caliber player. We're not going to put those expectations on him. We're going to develop him as a backup unless shit hits the fan. Like, when the Raiders drafted Derrick Carr, it was like,

we signed Matt Flynn to this big deal, but he was terrible. And then Matt Schaub was like old. And they're like, okay. And that's the problem is that when you come in with those, with that sort of those expectations, then often, like, the guy's not getting a lot of practice for us and blah, blah, blah, blah. I am saying, don't say that that's your intention, right?

but it's just like, if that's what happens, yeah. A lot of backup quarterbacks making $10 million a year. Like, that's value for your team. Can I draw some info on you about Bo Nix? Drop it. His real name is Bo. That's not a nickname.

His parents named him Bo. That actually respect. I don't. You have to earn that nickname. And I did research. I went through every famous Bo. Bo Jackson's name was not Bo. It was like Edward or something.

Bo Diddle. So, okay. So this is my. Not a natural bow. Wait, Bo did we? So, Bo can be short for Edward. I didn't know this. No, I don't think it can be short for Edward.

People just choose Beau sometimes. And I just made up Edward. I said, like Edward. I have a computer in front of me and I refuse to check. We're not like, we're not saying that he's Boe instead of like Beauregard. I only know, yeah, he's not. Bo regard mix. I only know three Bose, famous boasts.

It was Vincent Edward Jackson. And he went by Bo. I said, Bo Jackson, not a natural. Bo Didley, a famous jazz player. Austin doesn't know music. Not a Bo, not a natural bow. Bo Burnham named Robert, not a natural Bo. That I respect.

Bo and Robert, I can see. The fourth one, like, he's just Bo. He has a two-letter name. His name is just B-O-N-I-A-X. I mean, that is some, like, that is some late, late-game scrabble bullshit. And you can't even, you can't even do like the Mitchell-Tribisky thing. remember when he changed

Mitchell at the last time? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because he doesn't have a name to change it to. And by the way, if you stink and your name is B.O., the New York Post is going to cook. Also, there are so many opportunities. I still think I respect being named Bo more than your given name is Vincent Edward, and you're like, yeah, I go by Bo.

Oh, I was going to say I respect being named Boe more than I respect having the last name, Pennix. Oh, Pennix, yeah. That's a rough one. I don't get that one. What do you guys mean? But no, you had to be so cool that someone goes, that's a bow. Like, you're a bow.

But no, he skipped that. Really? Oh, I didn't know that. It's cool to be a bow. I didn't know that. But not a natural bow. Not a natural bow. Okay.

Earned the bow. Thank you for dropping said info, Stephen. It didn't earn the bow. Which may be fair. It's like the opposite of the McCorkle thing. Yeah, yeah. All right. We got to move on.

We got to move on. So I want both of you to drop like one Michael Pennix to. and then we'll move on. I think that Michael Pennix got overhyped on the run because of some of the stuff on his run in terms of getting into the college bowl playoff. I think he got overhyped because he has really good receivers and a lot of like I called him,

I think you say merchant a lot, but I do think he was like a vertical lead merchant. Like a lot of the success. I'm a merchant merchant merchant. Yeah, you're a merchant merchant. But I do feel like when you're going back and watching some of his best throws and what you're most impressed by is like vertical lead throws.

And I'm not even just saying nine balls, but like posts and like deep core. corners and all that stuff where he was just like he's just putting in front of guys and and and and and giving roma dunez and jalen mcmullen and uh jalen polk all these opportunities to like go get the ball and i think that's great that's still great i still think that i'd rather have bo nix and penics absolutely absolutely would rather have and like pennix a lot of people talk about the sack avoidance and that was a big thing in the college football playoff run and he has you know one of the better sack avoidance pressure you know pressure to sack ratios in this class

bo nix's was better and i know it was a fake offense and i'm there for that but i'm still on like Penix got better in ways that I think you have to respect. I still would rather take a flyer in the second on Knicks over Pennix. Both guys in the second, though, I can get behind. Yeah, and he doesn't work the middle of the field, which is always a red flag for prospects? Which, why doesn't he work the middle of the field? Because the vertical stuff is working so well from him,

and those guys are getting wide open on those routes. You're not even going to try that stuff. But they get open over the middle, and he doesn't throw it. Yeah, no. But he also does, I feel like part of it is because he's leaning back on the stuff that you're good at. Yeah, that's a good one. the stuff that you're bad at, which when you get to the NFL, they find that out pretty quick.

The origin story is Jalen Hertz, though. That would be the origin story. He transferred as a fringe prospect, I would say. Yeah, yeah. At Indiana, he made some good throws. Yeah. And then he landed in a good situation and capitalized on it and improved. I mean, I think that I was doing some of the stats when I was writing about the college football playoff. I think he's like one of like two quarterbacks or like one of like only a handful of quarterbacks that threw for like back to back, 4,500 yards. seasons or something like him and patchamah homes are up there like he has some crazy stats and like the production was was wild and i think that's why a lot of people were on him in the

playoff run but um i still i like the jail and hers comp in terms of like his trajectory and why people are like i can get behind this love it all right let's move on away from away from the prospects into the into the interview room where all three of us were milling about and hearing a bunch of sound bites from all the different coaches and GMs that spoke today, we're going to play a little game that we call Pro Football Talk headline roulette.

We've prepared a wheel. And the wheel has several news items from today. From the very helpful website, Pro Football Talk. Ever heard of it? Ever heard of it? And so we're going to spin the wheel and it's going to land on a headline.

and we shall discuss. All right. Stephen's going to do the honors. Stephen spin the wheel. All right. First spin. Nice spin duration. The one I wanted.

All right. What's the headline? George Patton on, or George Payton, sorry. George Payton on trading Russell Wilson. I haven't heard anything from any teams. Here's my question. Austin said what happened to like winning quarterbacks? What happened to lying?

Yeah. Maybe the worst thing he could have said. I don't understand. I feel like we always get lying in terms of we really like this guy. We really think we have faith in Justin Fields. We have faith in this person. Today, there was the Rahim Morris quote on Desmond Ritter where he's like, if we had better quarterback player, I probably not here.

It's like, damn, Desmond Ritter is dragged. And then this one, it's like, yeah, haven't heard anything about Russell. I don't think anyone's, I don't know if anyone's interested. Absolutely no one. Pick up that phone, though. You guys are interested. The bidding war is one or zero. We'll give you two if you order now.

I mean, is this like, is this the equivalent of the thing that teams do where they're like, so-and-so is going to get cut so that they're hoping some team like hops in at the last second to avoid the waiver wire and offers them a seventh round pick except as Russell Wilson? That would be insane if that's like the finagle here. If that's like the position, he's like, honestly, we're about to cut them. How about you drop that? No one's called yet. And they can get him for a seven.

It's like, that's not going to happen either with the contract. There's no chance with the contract. There's no way. It's just like, that's the only paradigm in which this happens in the league. I need to hear Russell Wilson's reaction to that on the Brandon Marshall podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can we get that breakdown, please? He's got more fire than ever, was this a quote.

Oh, no. And he said he wanted to stay in Denver. This is Russ? Yeah, Russ said, I would put Denver. So he's on the Brandon Marshall pot the other day and he gets asked, they went through the betting odds of where he was most likely to. to go next. And Brandon Marshall

asked him to rank them. And Russell said, I would put Denver one because I'm there right now. Which felt very Russell Wilson to me. Yeah. But I guess maybe he was, he's being diplomatic. George Payton is like

letting it fly. He doesn't care. Love it. Love it. We love honesty. It's already been reported though, right, that they're going to cut it. Yes. So I don't, like, I feel like I guess Peyton's just. The 2025 salary becomes fully guaranteed on March 17th. And until March 17th,

there's absolutely no reason to believe that anything about the Russell Wilson situation has changed. And the Russell situation is that they are going to release him. I'm reverting back to I respect it. I respect the truth. Really? I don't. I don't think you should lie. If you're not lying, you're not trying. It rhymes.

It would be way more fun if everybody told the truth. Yes. But within the current reality, it's really wild. He said that. Yeah, I shouldn't have said it. I guess if he did say, yeah, I've heard from a handful of teams we're like, liar. Just immediately just like, no. By the way, Sean Payton was like, we're going to

decide in two weeks. And then the reporter asked him a follow-up question. He said, I said two weeks. And two weeks from now, just so happens to be that March 17 deadline. So do the math. Thanks, Sean. All right, should we spin the wheel again? Spin the wheel again. Or do you want to do the honors,

Austin? Yeah. Can I spin it? Let me spin. We just keep getting the rust. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin O'Connell, I think we're headed toward a good place in negotiations with Kirk Cousins. He added to that too, right? And he said, you know, Kirk wants to be here. And I think it was a very anti-Russel Wilson vibes.

He was diplomatic, I would say. A lot of, the Vikings were kind of like a hot item at the podium just because they have, I mean, the Kirk situation, Justin Jefferson situation. There's probably, there's a fair bit in flux there. So their offseason is going to be pretty interesting. I mean, what do you think the odds are that Kirk ends up staying in Minnesota? I think he likes Minnesota. I think that 85%. I kind of believe.

I kind of believe that Kirk wants to be here. And when they're being that adamant about wanting him to stay there, I kind of back it. I think that they're telling the truth. I think that Kirk Cousins does end up back in Minnesota. And he makes sense for their window. I think he's had, I think Kirk has been good with Kevin O'clock. The last two years, yeah. Kirk is the you know we talked about quarterbacks and you know how they shape like how we're evaluating quarter you know other quarterbacks he's an example of like that average middle tier that I think has even gotten like overplayed to a point where it's like oh like you're at that Kirk level of the league where like can't with them with them or whatever but like I don't know I do think with the talent level that they have and Kevin O'Connell I think has been really good in Minnesota as well I think Kirk makes sense for their window yeah do they want Mahomes do they want Alain do they want Lamar like people are you know it's fair to be like well they got to go shoot for someone bigger and like maybe they could

could. But I don't know. You keep coming back to like, what's, what are the other choices, right? You're going to go get your co-goe reset or Baker Mayfield and Free Agency. You're going to go try to make a move up for one of these guys that we're not even sure is even Caleb Williams tier. I do think you have to kind of evaluate the rest of it. And, you know, some parts of me are like, develop a quarterback on a rookie deal. Other parts of me are like, if Kirk wants to come back and you're in the window and just Jefferson's still in that rookie contract, we're going to have to pay him soon. I kind of like the, I kind of, I like it. I think it makes sense for him to return of Minnesota. And you know what he wants.

And he's said this like in the press. He didn't say it come out and say, but he said structure matters with the contract, which means guaranteed money. I don't even think he cares how much. He just wants it guaranteed at this point. Yeah. Kurt Couss as long as he, obviously he does. The ultimate bad getter of the NFL.

Let's not underrate this. But when it's guaranteed, it just hits different. It does hit different. I think that's fair. I think that's fair. Everyone else in the locker room is worried about getting cut and he's just relaxed. Can I drive a take? Kirk Cousins has done absolutely nothing for the structure of quarterback contract. No, not at all.

Absolutely not a thing. He gets the fully guaranteed deal and they're like, yeah, we're not doing that for anything. When that happened, the tone was like Kirk Cousins just changed football. Oh, yeah, that's true. Like, quarterbacks for centuries are going to be feeling the reverberations of Kurt Cousins playing on the tag for two years. Just absolutely not a wit hasn't changed. A nonsense concept off rip. Kirk Cousins will never change football.

Shout out to Kirk Cousins. The question here with me is, I mean, and it does come down to what the cost is and what the structure is. And they can probably work something out with the years and which years are more expensive. But you don't want a situation where it comes down to Kirk or Jefferson. No. And the Vikings are not super capped out. But right now, you know, they've got 36 mil, give or take, to play with. And getting both of those done is going to be expensive.

Now, particularly with Jefferson, you can do it in a way where, you know, is he going to be making $20 million next year? Yeah, probably. But if the contract is actually a lot more than that, you can push a fair bit of that off. I don't think that if they ever got into a situation where they were choosing between Kirk and Jefferson, that they would not go with Jefferson. I think there are other comments here today where they're like,

we're not trading just Jefferson and that stuff is like ridiculous. And I actually backed that as well. But I still think that there's ways with the current cap situation that they can fit both in, especially in the same window. And I don't think Kirk is going to be looking.

I mean, is Kirk getting a two-year deal maybe? I don't know. If he's getting resigned, I don't necessarily think he's getting another three-year contract. Well, particularly coming off the Andrea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't trade Jefferson.

No, no. But. I mean, they... Can I ask? What would it look like? For me, it would have to be like a top 10 quarterback, like, swap, like a draft pick, even like a draft pick haul, like maybe like three, two first round picks? I'm saying no.

Two first in a player, two first in... I'm saying no. Yeah, I think you have to keep... I think what he does to, like... Do you say no to three first round picks? No, I say yes to that. I think you have to say yes to that. I think two...

You're going to hit on one of those three. Right. Unless you're not necessarily going to... Sorry. you're not necessarily going to hit on one of those two. No. What about for a known commodity, like the first overall pick? What else do you need?

What else do you need? In this draft? Yeah, yeah. Oh, I'm doing that. Yeah, you trade for the first overall pick. I feel like if it was going to be. But if you trade the first overall pick, that's worth three firsts. Yeah, especially from where the Vikings are coming out.

What I don't do is the Vikings thing and trade him and then trade him for number three and then draft Marvin Harrison Jr. I don't do it. Yeah, yeah. Even though I love Marvin Harrison Jr., but. Jefferson's the best receiver in the NFL. Keep Justin Jefferson. Quessie was like, that is a

blue chip player. We are not in the business of trading those. We are not doing that. And like, unless you're George Payton, those podiums are not always the spaces for clarity and bluntness and honesty, but he was just like, that is simply not happening. I think blue chip players,

I feel like kill any conversation around window, right? I think that even if like you're the worst team in the league and Justin Jefferson's in this part of his contract, you're still keeping guns. Because what he does to help develop younger players if you're in that position where you don't have your quarterback or what he does when you do have a quarterback and how he can make you a couple games away from being like a deep playoff contender. I don't know. He's like windowless.

You always keep him. If it wasn't Minnesota, any teams you might be interested in seeing Kirk Cousins suiting up for? No. Washington. If the Las Vegas Raiders signed Kirk Cousins, I think he'll have one of the, the worst years of his career. It would be like Carson Palmer going to the Raiders and it'll be like horrendous and people will only remember him that way unless he gets another opportunity.

Like you don't, I don't think he's someone. Yeah, I don't think he's someone that is like going to benefit from like a bad situation. And I think it's underrated how good Kevin Powell is out of Minnesota. Don't take Kirk Cousin out of Minnesota. He belongs by a lake in a minivan. Yes. Not wearing various coals of Kuchromal. Not only does he belong there.

Like he should be there. We don't like the other 49 states don't need Kirk Cousins. Should we spin? Let's spend. All right. A little whack. No franchise tags coming for running backs. A year after everyone got franchise tags.

The little dinky song. For no franchise tags. It's very funny when the headline is not positive. No money for you. Yeah, so this was just interesting to me because this time last year, there was such a raging conversation about what was happening with the running back position, those contracts. And now that we're a year long, later, the one caveat to this is that the Giants, because Sequan is one of the players who falls into this conversation, did follow up on this a little bit.

And Joe Shane was like, we didn't know that the salary cap was going to be $255 million and now there's more money and maybe that changes things slightly. But I think I doubt that that will ultimately change things here. The fact that a number of those guys, Josh Jacobs, in addition to Sequan, got. the tag last year obviously influences the fact that this is happening right now because you don't want to tag a player two years in a row because the premium goes up. That said, the actions of last season have created an interesting market at the position, right, where there's going to be a lot of these guys. The free agent running back class has some names in it. Now, as we know, that does not necessarily, and probably in reality, does not translate to big money.

And obviously the implication of teams deciding to go in this direction is that they don't feel that market value will eclipse or come close to eclipsing the franchise value. But it's just interesting to see what was such a big topic this time last year, come back around this year, where, you know, if you are a team that was, would like a veteran running back and someone who has performed at a pretty high level, there are a lot of names out there. Now, obviously, again, we all know the pitfalls of spending big in order to acquire those guys. But some of the biggest names on the market play that position,

and we will probably end up having some of the same conversations about sort of the referendum on value and that position. and all of the unhappiness from a lot of those players about how that's developed. I think no matter what with running backs, this is a situation. It's like the opposite of the Justin Jefferson Blue Chip. That doesn't apply to them. But with running backs, I think you have to take weird tactics no matter what. Like fifth year options, franchise tags, double franchise tags, trades, tags and trades. Like, you can't treat them like other positions, which just sounds bad.

But like, you're not going to draft one in the first round. let them develop for four years and then give them a huge contract and then expect that to continue with like a quarterback receiver cornerback any other position basically so I'm not surprised but I'm kind of maybe I am a little surprised that none of them are getting tagged and we don't see any of that creativity after that what I found surprising is how early because the track the franchise tag deadline has not passed yet right already getting sourced reports of these teams not using the tag like we're We're not using the tag on Pollard. We're not using the tag on Barcliffe. We're not using the tag on Jacobs. And Echler is not even in that conversation for the Chargers, even though new Los Angeles Chargers GM made sure someone asked him about the running back position. He's like, hey, he literally like stopped.

Like, hey, I still think it's an important position. Oh, thanks. That's good to hear. That's a real good faith toward the running back position. But I think it's interesting that that's coming out. That tells me something that, like, I feel like agents are hearing like, dude, it's going to be bleak. I don't know.

I think agents are hearing it's going to be a little bleak out there. You're not getting the franchise tag because your contract's not coming close to that average. That's what I think is like what we're going to end up, what this is going to end up sort of saying and communicating is, and to your point, this is pretty bleak, is like the league is essentially saying to these guys, you were so pissed about getting the franchise tag.

Yeah. Guess what? Guess what? Now you're going to get like a one year. Has six million bucks. incentive-laden. Like, remember Echler had that whole contract dispute last year with the Chargers, and he was going to hold out or something,

and then they were like, okay, we'll restructure a deal. And all they essentially did was, like, add a couple hundred thousand dollars to his deal if he hit the same numbers he hit the previous year. He didn't. And now it's like, you know, part of you can have the conversation and maybe all the contracts should be more incentive-laden and all that stuff. And it's just like, it's one of the most injury propositions. It's a tough thing.

And I think while we're on the topic, I don't know if this is a hot take or not. I think I've talked to you about it. I think the franchise tag should be banned. I don't think the franchise day should exist. I'm like kind of happy that it's not happening for running backs

but at the same time running backs a different position because you know I think they're going to get to that point where you're not franchise tagging low value positions. The franchise tag is

anti-capitalistic and not American. I was going to say the origin of the franchise tag is Christopher Columbus also. Yeah, it also might be because like when you think about some of the contract negotiations

in the past, like I remember when George Kittle was getting his extension and there was a conversation about what's it going to be and what's this average going to be it should be treated as receiver and like there were like this is just my opinion of the situation if you're at the negotiating table and you're able to tell kittle we will tag you and you'll get nowhere near the money you're asking for or we can kind of find a middle ground the fact that like that is a bargaining chip at the table for NFL teams saying no you're going to play for us no matter what at this money that's your floor like that to me is like kind of rough i don't know i feel like we saw this at the safety position, like, it was like four years ago where like no safety was getting signed and it was like July. And I think we're headed for a similar situation. It's almost like a market correction. I don't think it's organic. I think it's the teams like making this happen. But I think that's what we're headed for.

Look, like these are these right now are the rules of the road. Right. And I think the thing that, you know, the running back conversation often gets made in terms of value, which I think is sometimes tough. because are you talking about value to a team on the field on a down-to-down basis? I think we've seen increasingly over the last couple of years that in the NFL, being able to run the ball actually does matter. And we've seen teams that are highly competitive. Some of the best teams in the league, we've seen it in San Francisco. We've seen it in Miami. We've seen it in Kansas City, right?

Like being able to have a sustainable running game is an important part of winning in 2024. what we're talking about is the supply side. Like look at it right now. None of these guys are getting tagged. They're available. Yeah. And it's not going to cost that much. And therefore, if you had one,

why would you franchise tag them? And I think too often the positional value conversation, which I feel like former PFF guy, probably said too many times. But like, I think positional value does not need to be so often a conversation on who matters more on the field. Like, oh, is it a tackle more important?

It's like, no, how much do these guys make on average? And that league will tell you how valuable these players. Running back is it to draft someone and... Yes. Acquire a player for relatively little capital and have that person help your team. And I think that's related to like the tight end position too. And like, I think there's been conversation in this draft class about Brock Bowers and he's the Georgia tight end.

Is he going to be a top five pick? He'd be considering the top 10 and like San Lippoor had success. But he was the second round pick. People are worried about the Kyle Pitt stuff. And I think that tight end is one where we're not just seeing it be a lowly paid position, but we're also not seeing return on tight end investment in the draft until their second contract. Like, think about David and Joku, who I thought was maybe one of the better tight end prospects when he was coming out of Miami. Why did you think about David and Joku made me laugh.

Nobody ever thinks about it. No, no one ever is thinking about it in Joku. But I think, I don't know. I find myself thinking like running backs opposite. Like you want them on that rookie contract because that's when they're in their prime. and that's why it kind of sucks for running backs. But tight end, part of the positional value conversation,

but like are they worth their, you know, top 10 pick in the draft is oftentimes you're not seeing tight ends hit their like stride until that second contract and like they're 26, 27, 27, 28 years old. I feel very simply about linebacker. I know I'm getting off a tangent here,

but like linebacker is a position where rookie contract oftentimes, like, you're not, Patrick Queen has just now, I feel like starting to figure out starting to get a little bit better. Robpon is a little bit better. Yeah. And like now like you drafted Patrick Queen as high as they did.

I think they even trade it up for him. And you're just like, you're going to have to pay him now. If you want to keep him, you're going to have to pay him as good as now he's gotten. And I don't know. I think that's part of the conversation too. Should we spin the wheel? One more spin? One more.

You want to do it in order? Oh, yeah, I'm going to do it. Get a spin in. That would be good content, though. Get a spin in. It's gone. It's kind of electric. That was thrilling.

We need to spin more in our daily lives. We don't spin enough. Bring back spinners. Yeah, where are spinners at? Not just spinning for nothing. I want to spin more in life. The game of life? The game of life was a good game.

Can I spin something at the end of a meal? Fid spinners had like a whole... Do you guys not know what I'm talking about? No, I know what a fidget spinner is, but you just do it out of boredom, though. I wanted something that like means something to me. I want to spend more for life. I want steaks. Yeah, I want like steaks.

That's what I'm saying. I want steaks. Like if I go to a restaurant, you don't get to order anything. You have to spin for it. Look, what's the name of our handy website that we used? Pickerwheel.com? No secrets there. Incredible website.

That's good SEO. Not spawn, but like Pickerwheel deserves a shout out. The user-friendly nature of this platform was unparalleled. We had an extremely positive user experience. We didn't pay for premium, though. We did not pay for premium. We did not upgrade to premium. We thought about it so that we could set our background photo, but then decided against it.

We have a, the wheel has landed. What do we got? Elliot Wolf on QBs. I say there's a lot of options on the table. Thank you, Elliot. My favorite quotes of the podium is. Also, I mean, this idea was born under the fact that, like, pro football talk headlines

just really make me laugh. They're so, like, out of context. There was one that the wheel didn't come up with, or maybe we didn't put it on the wheel. But it was like, we don't know what Hendon Hooker is, but he's growing. That's like a meteor.

Like NASA says that. Those are always good articles from NASA, too. This meteor's coming kind of, maybe. It's getting bigger. Like, probably not. But if it does hit, it will wipe out humanity. I do feel like pro football talk maybe over indexes on the colon headline. They love a colon.

It's a good way to fit in SEO. They absolutely love a colon. And then they also, they do love like a little scare quote where it's something that's not at all spicy, but they just choose to put part of the quote in the headline. So it'll be like, there was one where it was like, uh, rhyme polls, um, conversations with Jalen Johnson are. are like quote pretty good. Yeah, that's great. And it just makes it seem like you're sarcastic.

That's so good. It's so good. That's just good. I could read pro football talk headlines all day. Concerning. Elliot Wolf. A lot of options. Let's talk about Elliot Wolf.

Maybe the opposite of what Patton said or Peyton said and that like no one's calling. He's like, I got a lot of options. Maybe kind of flexing you could get out of there. Why are you guys having trouble with Peyton? The coach and the GM has the same sounding last name. It should be Patton. It should be. he's pronouncing it wrong not us

he goes by bow you trade for Russell Wilson like we're not going to pronounce make a good trade and I'll pronounce you know I don't know how about that no but I think

I find myself liking the idea more and more that the Patriots are sitting there at three convincing maybe even themselves to like have scouts in the room leaking that the Patriots like Jaden Daniels and leaking other things they should be because I if they

They get an offer that I think they can get from some of these teams that won't have an opportunity to maybe go make a swing. And like say the Bucks don't resign Baker Mayfield. And that's another team that maybe needs a quarterback. And the Falcons are one that needs a quarterback. I think that they could have some callers. And you get enough ones to call up. I don't know. I think that getting out of that pick and then not saying going again with Mack Jones and Bailey Zaffey,

maybe trying someone in the second, but at least competing. But I'd rather have that than swing on Jen Dan. Wolf said, like, we need to weaponize the offense. I don't. That's a really weird word choice, but they need to. Before they get the quarterback, you brought Jayden Daniels into the Mac Jones situation. He's not going to be good. He's not going to be good.

He's going to have to scramble and he's going to scramble into big, large men. I would draft Marvin Harrison Jr. I would keep the pick. Keep the pick over trading back. Not if you get like a future first. It depends on how far you have to do. you're going down. I'm not a big neighbors guy. You don't like neighbors?

Whoa. That's a take that you guys have to get to later. He doesn't like neighbors. I like neighbors a lot. He's sick. Catch the ball with your hands. Kendrick Bourne's a free agent. Devante Parker, no thanks. Take Juan Thornton's not going to pan out. DeMario Douglas, Pop Douglas. Just crushing dreams.

Former sixth round pick out of Ole Miss who are like, yeah, kind of fun. I'm out. I'm out on this whole receiving court. That was a pro football talk. Yeah, yeah, kind of fun. Pop Douglas, colon, kind of fun. I think that you're right in that if they don't bring in some people who can actually catch the football. That offensive line needs a lot of work. They're not in a place where taking a big swing on a prospect with maybe he has a little range of outcomes or a wide range of outcomes. Either way, it's not going to be good right away.

That to me, I feel like is how you break a quarterback. Going back to why I said, like, that's literally the playbook. The playbook of breaking a quarterback is you take Jaden Daniels at three and you don't end up being able to upgrade the offense to a place where he can actually develop for his first two years. you end up panicking around his third year. And next thing you know, you're like already back in the same position. And the offense hasn't improved in terms of talent. If that's the playbook, then what is hiring Matt Patricia to be OC? That's different.

That's shattering a quarterback maybe or just that's just nepotism. So we didn't have nepotism conversation in this yet, but I do think nepotism is a piece of how the league. That's a copycat league. It's a little bit of a copycat league on the nepotism front. It's been a down year for rocket science in the NFL. Yeah, that's true. It's true. Josh Dobbs kind of fell off the face of the earth.

Matt Patricia. should have been a bad stretch for him. Yeah. Should we talk about the other quote, Wolf dropped, the possible shade? What did you think of that one, Nora? Okay, so what they're referring to is that Elliot Wolf, do you guys know,

I don't know what the question was, but his answer, it's often very hard to hear the question, yeah. The coaches speak into microphones and it's projected, so you can always hear the answers, but sometimes it's hard to hear the question. But Elliot Wolf said that the plan was for the team to have,

quote, less of a hard ass vibe going for. Same, by the way. I'm trying to like reduce that. I'm trying to have more of a hard ass life. Like less of a cut off sleeve hoodie vibe. Less of like a Bella check here in the locker room like it here vibe, you know? Less of like a like a Navy football enthusiast. The cross sucks. Okay. So what are some of the inputs to the Patriots need to to reduce the hard ass vibe? Is it just is it just removing Belichick in the hoodies and stuff like that? or take the do your job off the wall? That's like in some ways a wild quote

because he said it. What would do that would be if the people who worked within the organization talked to each other. Yeah, yeah. That could be big. Had meetings and stuff. I knew what was going on with the team.

So it was just like sweeter and more communicative. We're going to get out of the hard ass vibe. Yeah. Like if everyone's less of a hard ass. Yeah. This is like whenever like a coach is like we're going to be tough, we're going to be physical, people like make the tweets and they're like oh when is the guy going to be like let's be soft and

yeah yeah yeah ele wolf kind of did that he's like let's be a little softer yeah wait Patriots that's the that's the headline Patriots Elliot Wall we want to be soft and not tough we're looking to get softer in 2024 do you guys ever see those memes where it's like like are are you there gone the men you created or are like tweeting about harry styles are like, Nicky, like, Elliot Wolf is living

in the, the Harry Dyls era, I feel like, he wants more apart. Play. Yeah, which is good. An evolved king.

By the way, Belichick won't forget. Never. No, we were talking about this before. Three years from now, Belichick is going to be on some sort of,

like, anniversary broadcast, and he's just going to, like, drop an absolute scorching, hot, eviscerating take about, like,

or, like, not even take, but just, like, mumble about, yeah, we had a little bit of success won a few games. Some people think it's a hard-ass vibe, but I don't know. I got a couple hard-ass Super Bowl rings.

That would be good. Those are pretty hard. The medal and the trophies are pretty hard. I don't know. You got a good bell-check to me. You have a very good bell-check impression. I sat in his press conferences for a long time, guys. Those are good.

You think, like, Mike Girardi are, like, those guys have a better one? Probably, yeah. Yeah. In like the 70s, Marv Levy came into the NFL and tried to run like the wing tea. And it was a disaster. It didn't work. And in like 1993, Belichick made a joke about it because he hates Marv Levy, like with a passion. And he was like, yeah, that was real genius.

It's Marv Levy. It's Charlie Casserly. Dominic Raola for some reason. His son is coming up? Oh, is he? Oh, yeah, yeah. What if Belichick drafts his son? Belichick's not in the league anymore, man.

He's not coming back. He's coming back. And it's weatherman. Does he not like Shula? He does, but that's like, no, he doesn't, no, he, well, that's, but that's like, I think Shula, maybe it's because of Shula's, he's, like, still chasing him in some way. It doesn't come out with Shula. Yeah. Belichick, like, once a year, once every other year, would say, like, something really out of pocket about Wetherman. And it just, it always goes so far. It's always like, yeah, well, never been right once in the intense. entire history of the profession.

If you want to know what the temperature's going to be, don't look it up. They're all worthless. I can't find it, but I swear one time he combined the bits and he trashed Cassarly and Weatherman. He compared him to a Weatherman. There was like a nobody's, nobody's been wrong more than Charlie Casserly except for the weatherman or something like that. That's, oh, God. That guy's great.

I really do like, you know, holding a grudge, I feel like we need to keep that around. I feel like it gets I feel like keeping a grudge is nice It's a nice change of pace To everyone kind of moving on so quickly It's also like people who keep grudges Like hate somebody for a little bit They're consistent and they're predictable

You know like you sort of know what makes them take You know what's like grinding their gears in the morning Also kind of honest Have some conviction Yeah Like care enough to Have a little hate in your heart Yeah

Should we have in the pot on that down? Brought you by Pickwheeler Not brought to you by Pickerwheel.com Just in enthusiastic support of enhanced by Enhanced by pickerwheel.com. All right.

This has been triple threat. Enhanced by quadruple threat. Picker wheels. Picker wheels are fourth. Yeah, or like, I mean, do we need one for every every spin of the wheel

or every lot of quadrants? A lot of threats. This has been whatever it's been. I'm Nora Fridziotti. He's Stephen Ruiz. He's Austin Gale. Thank you so much.

Austin. Robin on and joining us. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely for producing this episode. Thank you to Eduardo Ocampo for helping us out on socials. Thank you to Arjuna Ramgapal and Connor Neffens for their additional production supervision and to you for listening. Extra point taken, Ben and Shield, they're going to be up next and we will be back next week with more to come on the combine, on the draft, all sorts of stuff. Maybe we'll use the wheel again. Austin, I'm sure we'll be seeing you. Lots of good stuff.