The Ringer NFL Show - Thanksgiving Week Means All-You-Can-Eat Football (Ep. 190)

Episode Date: November 24, 2017

The Ringer’s Robert Mays and Kevin Clark react to some great Thanksgiving action, including the Vikings and Case Keenum putting it all together, Dak Prescott's subpar play, and the Chargers becoming the scariest wild-card contender. Then the guys preview Week 12 by discussing how we arrived in a world where Saints-Rams is the game of the week, why the Bills can’t decide if they are tanking or not and why it might be time for the Packers to move on from Mike McCarthy. Finally Danny Kelly joins the show to offer his Week 12 fantasy sleeper picks, including the Rams receiver that will step up in the absence of Robert Woods, the surprise tight end you should start, and Thomas Rawls potentially providing some value in your lineup this Sunday. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer podcast network. I'm Kevin Clark, joined by Robert Mays on a Black Friday. Robert, what was your favorite Black Friday deal today? I don't know. It's probably on like some sort of Jason Garrett stock. I'm sure you can get it for pennies on the dollar. I'm not sure where I'd be able to buy that. You're supposed to buy good things on Black Friday for cheap.

That's a good point. I desperately need a new television, so that's probably what I'll be doing later. But I'm not sure my mother wants me to drag her to best buy on my last day while seeing her for a while. Hey, a deal is a deal, Robert. I know. She should respect that at this point, but we'll see. We're all over the country here, man. We're bouncing around. This is Thanksgiving edition of the Ringer NFL show. Yeah, I'm in, I'm on the East Coast. You're in vaguely West Coast. Arizona in the desert playing some golf today for the first time in a while. It should be predictably ugly. Danny will be welcoming us from the Pacific Northwest. This is a as always, yeah,

a nation-spanning ringer NFL show. We 12 is. underway three games yesterday of varying degrees of entertainment. First of all, the Vikings and the Lions. Robert, what were your impressions of that game? And did you do the thing that everyone in the country does, which is forget that it starts 30 minutes earlier? No, I was there. I was up very early. I mean, it's nice kind of having a houseful of people because it's hard to sleep in. So we were all just kind of packed around the TV. And also because I'm on mountain time, I was very cognizant of what time the game started because time zones are the thing that confused me most. I just forget they exist sometimes and Mountain is the worst one for that, especially when it's

not on Pacific, which it is now because of daylight savings. So it was in my mind. It was like, all right, what time does the game actually start here? So I was fine. What did you think of the football game regardless of the time zone implications? I think the Vikings are really interesting. Yeah. And I just feel like continuously we're seeing that with our offense. And yesterday I feel like it was one of those games where Matthew Stafford made a couple, I would say Matthew Stafford made a couple crazy plays. I would say Matthew Stafford threw a football and a couple of his guys made crazy plays. I mean, the Kenny Golodeade catch on the left sideline in the first half and the Marvin Jones touchdown. Marvin Jones. Yeah. It's just like when Troy Aikman said during that game at one point,

it's hard for Matthew Stafford to do this by himself referencing Matthew Stafford's lack of playoff success. It's like, I understand they don't have a running game, but that group of receivers is insane. And he played with Calvin Johnson for like six years. I don't understand how you could possibly say that. It's very strange to me. I thought the same thing. Like, supporting cast is not defined only by do you have a running back? No.

The best running back Aaron Rogers has ever had is probably Ryan Grant. I mean, this is not some thing where also great quarterbacks help create great running games. Do you know who the best runner Aaron Rogers ever had is? Who? Aaron Rogers. That's probably true. I was looking at it yesterday. I was curious because they were talking about how Stafford's only had 900-yard games since he became the quarterback.

I was curious how many Rogers has had, and it's 22, which is obviously twice as many, but it's not as if they're racking them up all the time. I mean, this is, again, over nine years, right? Stafford was drafted in 2009. So nine years, 22, that's two a year. It's not as if Aaron Rogers has these monster running games. The idea that you can't be a good quarterback or that you're doing all of it on your own if you can't run the ball is, crazy to me. What should Everson Griffin name his son? I don't know. Probably Taylor Decker, because Taylor Decker is now his other son. Yeah, I mean, maybe Case. God, that guy is good. I mean, that he is so fun to watch. And it's one of those things where we've seen this with a lot

of pass rushers this year. I wrote about Cameron Hayward and Cam Jordan this year. And, you know, Cam Jordan's been really good for a long time. But Cam Hayward's having a career year after getting drafted in 2011. Everson Griffin is, this is the best season he's ever had, sack total-wise, but even that isn't that misleading. I mean, the guy has been just a presence constantly. He was all over the place in that game again. And this is his eighth season.

So just these guys kind of finding new notches or even incremental improvements this late in their career. It's pretty impressive. How excited are you for the Jason Garrett vote of confidence that he got last night? I mean, it's kind of a disaster, isn't it? And they looked hapless. And even getting Tyrone Smith back last night, they just looked like they had no idea what was going on.

It turns out Zeke Elliott's pretty good, by the way. Zeke Elliott's pretty good. And I still think that Smith is more valuable to that team. But I still do. I don't know, man. I still do. I thought that, too. I was going to give Tyron Smith my ultimate sneaky MVP award for just how bad they looked.

But then he comes, I understand he was still injured. He was a step slow last night. But, I mean, DAC was still. I don't know. I mean, some of those misses were just unforgivable last night. Yeah, he's just been off. The last two weeks, he has under a 70 quarterback rating. There was a one play he rolled out in the red zone and then just, you know, overthrew a guy by 10 feet.

I mean, it was just, he's just a bad quarterback right now. And it's temporary. And everybody goes through these. You know, we saw that with Rogers for the first six games of 2016 where this happens. Yeah, it just happens. And also kind of on the flip side of that, Chargers are coming around. I mean, that Chargers defense looks really good. And, you know, you saw flashes of it early.

Ingram was been playing well the whole season, but Bosa wasn't good for the first month. And again, players have downturns. I mean, even if it's not based in significant injury, players go up and down in their careers. And Bosa was fantastic as rookie year. The first month of the season, he didn't look like the same guy. He looks like the same guy and more now. You could probably say the same for Casey Hayward. Yeah.

I mean, this is a guy who led the league in interceptions last year. And I think a lot of that stuff is attributable to scheme change. When you have a new coordinator come in, it's not necessarily seamless for everyone. So you have Hayward kind of settle in now. He's playing as well as any corner in the league. Bosa and Ingram are just wrecking games. I tweeted this last night. They didn't have a sack in the first half.

They controlled the entire game. The two of them did. And then in the middle, their biggest issue for most of the season was run defense. And now you get Param and back. And that's huge. So they're kind of coming together at the right time here. Chargers are five and six, Kevin. I legitimately think they could win the division, not just the wild card.

I'm not ready to commit to that yet. I don't think it's likely. I think that they're in the hunt to do it. It's possible in my mind. Yeah, no, of course. I do think they're going to get a wild card. Who is playing better than them among those potential wild card teams in the AFC? I mean, the teams they have to contend with, or we'll talk about this a little bit later,

but Buffalo, Baltimore, they are right there to get one of those. So the Titans have six wins. They are the only team with more than five wins in the wild card hunt at this point. And I'm just kind of giving them the first one. I mean, I'm not even considering. No, no, right. No, I'm saying the other spots are open. The bills have for some reason resigned from their post as wild card contenders.

They've abdicated the throne. We'll get to them. The Ravens are five and five. Yeah. I mean, I don't like what I see from the Raiders right now. No. The Bengals are the Bengals. The Texans have Tom Savage.

it's kind of a grim wildcard race. And Tom Savage is an interesting thing to bring up. And the same way that Drew Breeze is the tiebreaker for the NFC contender race, I feel like the version of Philip Rivers we saw yesterday is my tiebreaker for the second tier of the AFC wildcard race. I mean, the way he played yesterday, I know the Dallas defense isn't very good right now, but that guy that was playing football in Dallas last night, that team becomes very interesting if he plays like that. I mean, he looked fantastic. just putting the ball anywhere he wanted to.

A lot of time, you know, which is one of those things with that offensive line, there was a question at certain points. They're starting to play well. Keenan Allen is, looks like a man possessed at this point. I mean, he is playing fantastic, which is so fun to watch. I mean, everything about that team that I was like, okay, let's see if this stuff can kind of hammer itself out before the season, when I picked them to win the division, we're starting to see that version of them.

And it's getting really interesting. I would love to see a Philip Rivers run. It would be awesome. It would be so much fun if they finished like 9 and 7 got a wild card and like just were lingering against some of these contenders in the playoffs. I would love to see that. I just think they would give us the best game. And here's the thing I think we overlook about the Chargers because of the Chargers. They play in a soccer stadium and no one in L.A. actually knows that they're here.

We talk about the NFL's lack of superstars or whatever. That's a team that has either superstars or guys who should be superstars. Joey Bosa should be a superstar. Philip Rivers is a star. Keenan Allen should be a superstar. And so I think the Chargers in a big spot is extremely fun for me. I agree totally on that. Rivers makes any game he's in more interesting.

But I think beyond that, I just feel like they're going to give us a better game. We'll talk about this a little bit later. I don't want to step on some of the points we're going to make later in the podcast. But that's to me why they're an attractive proposition because it's like, okay, maybe those games the first weekend of the wild card race don't. have to be absolute garbage, which I'm really hoping they're not. They're still probably going to be garbage. Yeah, that's very.

Speaking of absolute garbage, did you watch the last game last night? I did. Yeah. Remember before the season when we picked Dark Horse candidates to win, like, receiving and rushing titles? Yeah. And Keenan Allen was 100 to 1, and I said, that's too much. He is currently third in receiving your ads in the NFL.

But he's not going to win. And Antonio Brown has played one fewer game, so that's huge. But he's only 80 behind Adam Thielen, and he's 100 behind Antonio Brown. The one fewer game with Brown is tough. What was Adam Thielen's preseason prop bet for receiving it? He was off the board. There were no odds for him listed at any of the places we were looked at. Fantastic.

I mean, that's obviously the biggest dark horse. But if you get Keenan Allen to 100 to 1, he's in third place. This is not out of range. So that would be pretty awesome. Did you put an allocation on it? No, I did not. I should have. I have rarely bet in the last couple years, even on stuff like this that's just kind of fun.

But that was the one I like the most. And it is definitely within striking range, especially if he's going to be wrecking up 100. at 50 yards a game like he is right now. I have never, but on football, I don't think. And I don't want to start now. I did a couple years ago. Again, we've talked about it a million times.

Then we would be just, you know, it'd be in our heads and we'd be all angry at teams and stuff. No, no, no, 100%. It's not good. The only thing like that in the realm of, like, champions that I've ever done is that the first year, LaShaul McCoy had chip. I really thought he was going to win the rushing title. And Barnwell was in Vegas. So I gave Barnwell 25 bucks.

I was like, can you put this on LaShaul McCoy to win the rushing title for me? And he didn't do it. And LaShaught McCoy won the run. rushing title at like 50 to 1. I was very upset with him about that. It just soured me on the whole idea. That's why I don't do it anymore. I convinced myself after one big bet that I was a boxing sharp and then I put a bunch of money on boxing like a month ago and I got absolutely slaughtered. I got lucky on one bet and one boxing bet and won a bunch of money and I'm like, oh, I'm the boxing guy now. I'm Bert, I'm Bert Sugar now. I was not Bert Sugar. Okay. All right, Thanksgiving brought

us some great football. We've got a bunch of coming up on Sunday. Danny Kelly's going to join us later as we talked about with some urgent and helpful fantasy football advice. Just a couple weeks left for the fantasy playoffs begin. But first, let's get to our favorite four. These are the best four matchups of the weekend. Some good ones, Robert. Let's start with the first one, Saints at Rams. I mean, this is the game of the weekend, man. This is just a fun matchup. Should have been Sunday night. It would have been a fun game to watch on Sunday night. I mean, we have two of not only the best teams in the NFL, but two of the more exciting teams in the

NFL. I mean, just the brand they. play. It's really fun to watch. And it's interesting because Jared Gough at the best game of his rookie season against the Saints probably. It still wasn't very good. So in the last couple of years, everyone had their best game against the Saints. And that's the change, right? I mean, that's just not the case anymore. So the thing to look out for here, I believe that both Saints corners or two of their secondary guys are dealing with some injuries. So we'll see what happens with Marshawn Latimore and everybody else back there. Because, yeah, it's Ladomor and Crowley, I think both missed practice yesterday.

So that's big. I mean, if they're missing both their top two corners, this is a Rams team that you can't do that against. I mean, it's not as if you can just try anybody out there and stop them like it was last season. I mean, this is a team that can really throw the ball. One of the things that's problematic for the Rams is that no Robert Woods.

Yep, which again, if I had told you before the season, man, Ken Crowley and Robert Woods aren't playing in this game. It's going to make a big difference. It's going to have an impact. I don't know how you would have reacted. I mean, I don't even know where you start. If you were presenting this information in August that the Saints and the Rams would be begging for it to be flexed, that the Saints had two guys who almost have a thousand yards from scrimmage already,

and that's almost historically good. If you were told that Case Keenham and Jared Gough would be a legitimate debate about who's better and be in a good way and not a gag way, yeah, I would have a lot of follow-up questions if you told me about Saints Rams in August. I think one of the more interesting elements of this game is that you look at the Rams defense. They're fantastic. You know, so much talent up front with Aaron Donald. The secondary has been playing well. The one thing the Rams don't do very well comparatively is they do not stop the run. The 20th and rushing DVOA. It's not really how this team is built.

You kind of saw that with Wade Phillips team last year. And that's in a lot of ways, the way defenses are coordinated is as impactful in how they stop the run in the past as their talent. just because schematically you do things that kind of sets you up to fail in other places or don't give you as much bodies or resources in certain areas. And that's exactly what the Rams are again compared to the Broncos from last year. So if I'm the Saints and I have the best running game in the league right now, this is one of those games where I just lean on it as hard as I can again. I mean, you're just going to try to run the ball 35 times and see where it gets you.

And if they do too much to come up and stop the run, that's where Drew Brees hurts you. So it's interesting you talk about Woods. Greg Cosell was on a podcast this week. I think it was Chris Raybourne's podcast. And he was talking about Sammy Watkins. He was saying that Watkins is getting open all of the time. But he happens to be lined up sort of on the backside in an ISO. And golf isn't making his reads quick enough to get over to that side of the field. And I just think that we're kind of sleeping on Sammy Watkins as a threat. The fact that he's beating his man and he has that ability and he just hasn't shown it yet on a grand scale or the kind of scale. or we're used to with Sammy Watkins is I think something we're not talking about enough. And I think that you have a Woods injury. This could be maybe a Sammy Watkins week. Well, it's interesting because they're used in different ways, right? I mean, the reason that Watkins is that backside receiver is that this team has so many shots built into their play action stuff. That Watkins is the better option there.

And then Woods, with the short air quickness that he has is a lot better on the front side of that play action stuff because he gets open instantly. You know, golf's able to make some easy reads. I think that there are a really nice compliment to each other. And I'll be curious to see what happens with Cooper Cup in this game. I feel like if they still want to use Watson as that backside shot guy, and they're trying to do some stuff to just create instant opportunities with golf, either moving to his right or looking to his right, how much Cup plays into that. So, you know, this is one of those situations where they have a deeper stable of receivers than it seems

because I think that Gerald ever provides interesting kind of matchup stuff as an outside receiver, even though he's a tight end, you know, see what they do with Higby. It's going to be one of those games where, everyone else needs to step up and kind of piecemeal together the options that Woods gives golf because it's been such a huge part of their offense. I am so close to thinking that Cooper Cup's name is Cooper Cup and not Cooper Cooper Cooper. I'm so proud of you, buddy. That's a really big step.

Like mid-December, I'm going to, for the first time, not say Cooper Cooper. I mean, the guy, he fumbled last week, which will kill you and down near the goal line. But, yeah, he's been really productive as a rookie. and it's really impressive what they've gotten out of these guys. So, yeah, I'm interested to see what happens with that stable of receivers against whoever plays in the secondary for New Orleans. And I'm interested to see how well the Saints run the ball against this Rams team. I just feel like this is one of those games where we'll see how much Aaron Donald can dominate.

You know, the guards for New Orleans are not bad players, you know, comparatively to a lot of the guys he's played against this season. He's able to control games. We'll see if he can here. This is a fun one. I mean, I mean, just a lot of intrigue, again, that we didn't think we'd we'd have three months ago. So two quick things about this. Number one,

did you see who's getting the credit internally for the Saints draft class and who just got an extension? Jeff Ireland. Jeff Ireland. That has to be so like, it's just a bizarre world thing for you as someone who was very familiar

with Jeff Ireland for a while. I mean, Jesus. How many years did you cover the dolphins when he was there? He was sort of after my time. Okay. But I was still there in 08 and 09 in South Florida.

Okay. And I remember being in a press conference. And this actually may have been 2010. I was there. And they were, we talked about how basically none of his second round picks were any good. Like, basically none of his draft picks were good.

It was like second, third, fourth round. He got like no production from it. And I remember someone asked him about it. And he was like, oh, we're doing this old storyline again.

And it's like, first of all, it's really important, Jeff. And second of all, like, if it's an old storyline for you that you don't get production,

from anybody outside the first round, that's a bad thing. That's not good, Jeff. Oh, it's pretty brutal. Philip Merling, Pat White. Colomisi's an NFL player, which I guess he deserves some credit there. But here's the thing,

is Coemesi was an NFL player for the Dolphin. You know what I'm saying? Like, he fit into a very mediocre team. He was like a key piece to make that team mediocre. Sure, but he's still in the league, is what I'm saying.

I mean, he's never been a good player, but he's still in the league. That's more than you can say about Philip Merling and Pat who never really did much of anything. Didn't Philip Merling, didn't he have the pick six against the Jets to win them their lone division title last two years? I'm not sure that's enough to warrant a really good draft pick.

God, do you remember Jeff Beck? Oh my God. This was not a Jeff Ireland pick, but still was a Dolphins pick in the second round. BYU, Jeff Beck. John Beck. John Beck, excuse me. That was the Randy Moore Cam Cameron pick. Oh my gosh.

There's some just gems in the Dolphins' draft history. They did trade for Anthony Fasson. which I liked. Paul Soliye was a good player. You know, Paul Soli, as an aside, I was really young. It was 2007. So I was like 20. I was covering the team when I was in college. And Paul Solioi kept getting suspended for like a quarter. And I remember, I don't know why it hadn't occurred to me. But this football is one of the assistant coaches was like, you know, if you ever want to evaluate talent, just look at like player discipline. Because Paul Soli, I would have been like kicked off the team if he sucked.

but because they were convinced that not only was Paul Soli awesome and was going to be awesome, but he was actually irreplaceable on a defense because just of his ability to wreck a line, that he was getting suspended for like a half, a quarter. And it's like, yep, this guy's really good and a game changer. He was fun against the run for a couple of years there. I mean, he was a good player. I remember like 2010 through 2012 was like the stretch. I remember that he was like a really kind of potent force

in the middle of a defense. It went downhill from there, though. He was not very fun in when he went to Atlanta. Philip Merling and Chad Henney, 2008 second round picks for Jeff Arlon. Just a big run there. I mean, Chad He's back quarterbacked as what he's. I mean, he did start there for a while, but it was not a good run for Jeff. Last thing, it was funny for me. There was a story, and obviously it's apples to oranges because of the population. Did you see that the Rams are getting essentially the same rating in St. Louis as they are in Los Angeles? It's incredible. It's great stuff. I'm just surprised that many people in St. Louis are still willing to watch the Rams. I think they're just, watching football quite frankly.

Yeah, that's probably fair. All right, Bill is at Chiefs. Tyrod Taylor is starting. RIP, the Nathan Peterman era in Buffalo. It was a wonderful time. We'll remember it fondly. Is Nathan Peterman, is his career like over? I don't know.

I mean, I assume he'll be the backup there for a while. They clearly like him. So as long as that regime is there, I think he'll probably get a pretty long lease just because they're not going to throw him out there if they didn't think he was somewhat tolerable. And your backup at this point is a quarterback Recko needs to be somewhat tolerable.

I remember Rob Schneider was on Mark Maren's podcast a couple years ago. And he was talking about, I think it was the hot chick. I think that was the movie he was talking about. And he was talking about how just like he made a lot of money on a lot of stupid movies. And then he had one that was just so horrendous that like the studio he had like a multi-picture deal with, like kicked him out of his office and like took his mini fridge away. It was like a whole sad story because he made one bad movie. I kind of feel like that's with Peterman,

where it's just like, that was so bad that the support has to move on from Nathan Peterman. The hot chick is definitely the last movie. I'm looking at his item to view right now. It's definitely the last movie he starred in. Well, he got Deuce Bigelow European Gigolo six years after the first one. What was the one where Roger Ebert just destroyed him? Because it was that one.

I assume it was the hot chick. That's the only one where he played something that transformed. The animal. The animal made money. Oh, the animal. That was it. That was it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I forgot about that. I knew he played two where there was like some weird transformation. That was the entire Rob Schneider catalog was just him transforming into things. He was a transformer. He was a transformer. That led to the South Park bet when it was the Rob Schneider. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rob Schneider is a carrot. He's a toaster. Yeah. It's great so. Anytime you can be the guy who becomes other things. That's a great bit. Hey, that's exactly what we should be. Tyrod Taylor has become something else.

He is an NFL quarterback. again, a starting one. The Bill's ultimate bit was transforming from a team in the wild card to a team that's considered one of the worst teams in the NFL in one half. Shaw McDermott transforming from a guy I thought was a really good coach to a guy who maybe might be won and done now.

It's unbelievable. He's not going to be one and done. Just to be clear, he's not going to be one and done. He's not. I mean, yeah, exactly. I mean, that front office and him are linked and we'll see what happens with them. He's also probably still a good coach. He just made a massive mistake. Yes. And obviously the Marshall Darius trade is hurting them. I mean, he wasn't playing great for Buffalo, but they're run

defense has been absolutely trash since they got rid of him. Calvin Benjamin's hurt now. I mean, the first half of the season was pretty much the best version of it that could, it could have existed for Buffalo, and the second half has been the worst version. Yeah. It's a really interesting thing to me, because I'm still generally impressed with the Bill's 2017 season. They could have been just like two and 14.

It could have been one of those type of years. Well, here's the thing. There's an alternate universe, and I said this in preseason, if they, there's an alternate universe where they, they're a really good AFC. team. If they had just done some different stuff personnel-wise, now the issue is they'd sort of be stuck in that great middle. If they had gone all in on this season,

they'd be stuck in the great middle. They could have won 10 games and they could have maybe won a first weekend of the playoffs game, but you're not going to be nearly as good as the Patriots. Not going to be nearly as good as the Steelers. I mean, they would basically have been like, you know, a Jacksonville level AFC team. And I think that Brandon Bean, Sean McDermott,

as Pagoolas, they'd rather just build for the feed. They'd rather process it a little bit. Well, they're not, though. I mean, they have five wins. No, I know. If they get to seven, they're going to be seven to nine. They can be a middle of the draft. I know.

I'm saying that this is a bit of an identity crisis right now. Yes, and that was the funniest thing is that coming into the season, we thought they had a clear identity. I think we were all kind of okay with it. And then now that's just not been the case at all. I thought they were straight up tank. Me too. That's what I'm saying. It was like, that was their identity.

They were trying to be bad. They were going to be. And then they started winning games. And it's like, okay. And then now they start trying to lose games again and plan for the future by starting Peterman. then they trade for Calvin Benjamin, who that's kind of a win now move because he only has one year left on his deal. And are you going to win the Super Bowl next year?

I don't, all these things are confusing to me. I don't really understand. I tweeted this week about how I thought that Nathan Peterman was just a viral advertisement for Tyrod Taylor. And someone tweeted it made with something I wish I had thought of, which was he thought it was maybe a Nathan for you pitch where Nathan Fielder showed up and was like, guys, we got to make everyone think Tyrod Taylor is amazing. So what do we do? We start Nathan Peterman. See, it's funny because I tweeted a Nathan for you joke also and didn't realize that you had. Because the Nathan Peterman era, it was not as long as the Nathan for you finale.

It was less time in the aggregate. The Nathan for You finale is the best thing I've ever seen on television. I watched it. It's fantastic. With the exception of Giants Redskins last night. I am very glad that you sent me in that direction. I probably would not have watched it because I didn't watch this season. But thank you for the recommendation.

I appreciate you looking out for me, buddy. It's very nice of you. That's what I'm here for. I'm a pop culture connoisseur. I watch four things a year. One thing for the Bills, Chiefs, before we move on, though, I want to just, if the Chiefs are going to get back on track, this is the type of team they can do it against because the Bills run defense has been so awful

for the last couple weeks. And the Chiefs, I think that their best route to finding themselves on offense again is getting that running game going. And there is no better team to do that against right now than Buffalo. So we'll see if they can kind of find that Kareem Hunt-centric approach again because they haven't in recent weeks. And I'm not sure they'll be dangerous. without it. When we're watching the game last week, the broadcaster was saying a lot of people saying

rookie wall for Kareem Hunt. And it's like, I don't really, I mean, the entire offense seems to have broken down. Yeah, Kareem Hunt still looks really good. I mean, he's breaking tackles. It turns out that, you know, this is not an independent sport. Yeah, shocking, right? Things work together. You can't just, it's just very lazy to me to be like, oh, rookie wall. First of all, what is the rookie wall? I have no idea what that means. I've never understood the concept. It's just like, you start off well and then slow down because of what guys figure you out is that that argument i have no idea i don't know okay texans at ravens so let's get into it not through arguing who's going to win texans because because i'm not sure tom savage can move the ball against baltimore like that's going to be a

real problem i'm not sure that joe flacco can move the ball against any team in the NFL i think the raven's defense is the best part of this football game yeah no no of course of course this would be a tom savage like six sack five interception game. That's not out of the question. So what we're going to do is because both these teams are allegedly in the AFC wildcard hunt, one of them is and one of them is by record only. We're going to look at which teams sort of scare us in that race. If we were the Jaguars, if we were even Pittsburgh, a team like that, who would we not want to see make the playoffs? Robert, the Chargers are your pick? I think the Chargers are my pick. I think the two teams you could probably throw out there are Tennessee and the Chargers just because of talent.

You know, Mario does, can be a good quarterback. I mean, he's had some rough stretches this year, but I think that the talent on the Tennessee roster, it puts them in this conversation. But in my mind, it's absolutely the Chargers. And I think that there are two reasons for that. The elements of a team that make them scary to me when they're, when they have less talent overall is one pass rush and two quarterback play. And I think that the best version of the Chargers has those. A really good pass rush is. the great equalizer when you have a lesser team. And the fact that the Chargers have those two guys,

that's what makes them frightening in my mind. I'm on record as saying, aside from the athleticism part of it, all I would do is draft pass rushers. It's not a bad move. More pass rushers. So the Ravens scare me in this sense. Now, obviously, the Chargers scare me more than any of these teams.

Because, by the way, if the Chargers make the playoffs, they're inherently still going to be on a hot streak. Yes. Just by virtue of the fact they're 5 and 6 right now, if they're going to get to 9 and 7, if they're going to get to 10 and 6, that means they either ran the table or came close to it. So, first of all, look out for that. Second of all, if you're going to go beyond that, I mean, the Ravens scare me in a way the Titans do not. The Ravens are number one in the NFL and turnovers for defense. That's good.

Yep. They lead the NFL, obviously, interceptions. That's part of it. But then they're past defense. They're fourth in yards per attempt. Third and points per drive. They've got a pretty scary defense. They've pitched three shutouts this year.

It's number one by DVOA. It's the best defense in the league by any advanced numbers. I mean, they're a really good unit. And they're one of three or four units that can win a game by themselves. Yep. And that's scary. Yeah, that's a good point. Especially if you have a shaky quarterback.

Listen, man, if you're Jacksonville, you want no part of the Ravens. Now, obviously, that gets into a situation where both those defenses, listen, if Jacksonville and Baltimore play in the playoffs, you know what's going to happen? It can be a really ugly game that finishes three to nothing. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, wrong. It's going to be 3528, but nothing but pick sixes. That's fine. That works for me, too. There will be no offensive points in that game. If you've got a crappy quarterback like Jacksonville does, you don't want any part of the Ravens. Now, maybe it cancels out where the Ravens are going to. to have their own crappy quarterback and throw into Jalen Rams and AJ Boy too many times. But I'm just saying you don't want to see the Ravens. It's a really good point. I think that for the same reason that the Chargers are scary defensively, the Ravens should be two.

I mean, I can't say one and not say the other. You're right. I just feel like with the Ravens just complete incompetence on offense, the Chargers can move the ball. Rivers is a real quarterback and they have some talent over there. I just feel like that's what makes them a little more dangerous. They have some way to score where the Ravens against a good team probably. I like Alex Collins quite a bit. He looks great. But again, I'm against Green Bay. He looked really good. He finished with 20 carriers for 49 yards. No, I know. I mean, it's just the lack of help. In this case,

this is the Matthew Stafford thing. Alex Collins has no help. He is doing this by himself in the Ravens offense. And again, by no real fault of the Ravens in certain ways, it is so hard to overcome the amount of offensive line injuries they've sustained this year. I mean, when you have a guy retire before the season, you lose Marshall Yanda, and the guy you picked in the fourth round that might have had to start for you also gets hurt before the year, your entire interior of our offensive line is just gone before the season starts. That's tough. One thing I want to address is when I was joking about the Jaguars Ravens game is obviously the Jaguars and the Ravens played earlier this year and the Jaguars won by a lot. Games in London didn't actually happen. No, they didn't actually happen.

And the Jaguars also played the Chargers this year. And the Chargers could have won that game like six different times. So, I mean, this is a situation where, I think both of those teams are dangerous in different ways. I still feel like if I could pick one, if this was a situation where if you had the number one seed, you could pick the wild card teams, I would pick Baltimore before I'd pick the Chargers. I agree with you.

Your argument for the Ravens is very good, honestly. I was not thinking that. I didn't want to argue for the same team. You're totally right. And your Ravens' points are well taken. I mean, I think that if you're going to talk about defense with the Chargers, you absolutely have to with the Ravens because they've been excellent on that side of the ball.

It's just sometimes that gets muddled. in my mind because of how terrible the Ravens' offenses. They're division winners. I would rather see the chiefs. I'd rather see the Jaguars than Los Angeles. I don't know if that is true for me in the Jaguars right now. I just think that that defense is so scary. You'd rather see the Chargers than the Jaguars.

I just think a good quarterback is a good quarterback. You're right. It's getting closer to me by the week as we see games like that from Phillip Rivers, but I still think that the Jags defense is the scariest kind of lingering. element among all the teams that aren't the Steelers or Patriots. And again, this isn't in a vacuum because if the Chargers made the playoffs, it's because they kept winning and would be by definition the hottest team in the NFL. That's a really good point.

Something to watch. Okay, Packers and Steelers. We're talking about this specifically because it's a primetime game. So this was, I want to talk about this very quickly. Oh, okay. So did you see? That makes one of us. So it's not about the game.

Did you watch any of the NBC pregame last? night before Giants Chargers or before Giants Redskins. I watched a little bit. What party? So the promo for this game, it was just Steelers. They didn't show any Packers highlights. They didn't mention the Packers until they're playing the Packers on Sunday night as they went back to the studio.

It was all Antonio Brown, Levion Bell, and Ben Rappasburger highlights, which is just all you need to know about the state of primetime games right now in the NFL. It's like in college football when like Ohio State plays Central Michigan or something. Yeah, that's exactly what it felt like, you know, see Urban Meyer and his guys get ready for later of the year. So there are a couple things I want to discuss with this. One, the Steelers have been a frustrating team in a couple, certain stretches this year. I mean, they played the Colts to a stand still two weeks ago.

And I know that's on the road and they seem to be a different team at home and on the road. Fine. This is at home. You'd still like to see them shellack a Packers team that can't do much of anything right now. Two, at what point does the Packers incompetence without Aaron Rogers start? to implicate everyone there to like a meaningful degree? It has already. So at what point do we start talking about like who the coach will be for the Packers next year?

First of all, what's interesting to me is that unlike the Peyton Manning situation in 2011, which we'd never really seen. That was a very, it rains at poorest thing because the Colts without Peyton Manning had never been considered. Then he goes out for the year and we see Curtis Painter and we saw a little Carrie Collins that year, didn't we? I believe so. What a great year.

The Curtis Painter era was something special. So, but what I'm saying is that all came at once. We've seen the Packers without Aaron Rogers and we knew that this was a possibility. We've seen Scott Tolzeen that one year. You know, we've also, by the way, seen Matt Flynn throw six and six touchdowns one time against the Lions, but that's neither here nor there. And so we knew this was going to happen. And I can't believe people were surprised by it in a way. I just think that, I don't know, I mean, Aaron Rogers, like what we talked about,

Aaron Rogers masked every single flaw that the Packers had for the last decade. And I'm not surprised by any of this. Do you think, in your opinion, who should lose their job? I think McCarthy, I think it might be time. And the only reason I say that, no reason I hesitate to say that is because Rogers is going to be 33. The idea of handing him a new coaching staff and a new scheme and everything else at 33 seems like maybe you're taking a step back. But then I think about what happened when Peyton Manning went to Denver.

It's just like, who gives a shit who the coach is? I mean, if it's a decent one, they're going to be fine. I mean, Peyton Manning is your quarterback. So I don't know. I'm of two minds about it. Here's my question. Who are you going to get? I don't know.

You couldn't have you said, you could have said the same about all these teams that hired guys like Doug Peterson and then became the best team in the league. I don't, that question's always tough for me. No, I, but you could also tell you about people who hired Hugh Jackson. No, that's a good point. I just think that picking out who the best coaching candidates are going to be is really difficult. How many of us genuinely thought Sean McFay was going to be a really good head of all head coach?

I didn't. I thought I heard someone in the league was like, oh, they just, you know, they're just doing that to save money, basically. Yeah. I mean, this is so tough to predict. Here's the thing. Every coach who's out of the league, every head coach who's out of the league, if you talk to them about modern football, their theory on every single employed coach. is that they took less money to be employed. Yeah, I'm sure.

Like, that's their take. And so it's, oh, if you talk to like, I'm not going to, obviously not going to name my names. Like, you've talked to anybody and you'd be like, hey, Sean McVaylor. But yeah, the ownership just wanted to save money with a, and then he'd be like, Bill Belichick, but yeah, ownership just wanted to save money by winning the Super Bowl every year. We do this every year, right? We're like, with, like, oh, so-and-so is the hot coordinator candidate. Like, if Matt Nagy gets a job next year, it's like, that's probably the guy that made sense.

But it's still at a certain point, like, who the hell knows? I mean, there's no way to know. Wasn't McCarthy himself the coordinator of a very bad San Francisco offense? Which is kind of weird, yes. So there you go. That's a good one. All right, that's a take from coaches. Kevin, let's get to your take for the week.

What's the hottest take you actually believe? Okay, we need to retool Thanksgiving football. And I'm not sure what the answer is. I'm going to give it to you, Robert. Do we go two games or do we go more games? Or do you like three? I don't mind three. I just think that the game last night was awful.

I think you should be able to flex the Thanksgiving. Flex it. Well, that's the whole thing. That's never going to happen on the short week, though. Yeah, but you can do it a month in advance. I guess so. That's tough. Flexing the Thursday game is hard. I'm all for flexing different days. I've talked about this many times in the show.

I think on Thanksgiving, it's particularly hard because people have the travel arrangements really early in advance. Now, here's what I would say. I think they should be able to flex within Thanksgiving. Like, I'd have rather have seen Minnesota, Detroit at night last night in primetime. I would have enjoyed that more. They're all national games. Everyone's sitting by the couch.

I don't think that matters. I honestly think the night game is the easiest one to skip. I'm never ready for the Lions game. I honestly think the night game is the easiest game to skip on Thanksgiving. So I don't mind that the lesser game was at night. That's the game that's easiest for me to tune out. The Cowboys game is always one of the highest rated games. That's because it's right in the middle of day.

Literally everyone is sitting down in America when the Cowboys game is on. It's just a matter of clicking on on the TV. And that's all that is. We need to think about. about last night was such a depressing endeavor that we need to think about what we're going to do with the night game. I understand that. Again, I just think that's the easiest one to tune out. Anyway, Robert, we've been talking for a while. Feels like we're still missing something about this week in football. Let's, let's hear it. So we dug into some of the intricacies of Saints and Ramas,

but I think one that we didn't talk about and something that I'm interested in looking at for the rest of the season with New Orleans is that they've gotten a ton of production out of Marchion Latimore and Marcus Williams. We've talked about the rookie class so often. But the free agents they've hit on have also made a big deal. And Alex O'Kofour was having the best season of his career. He's a guy that was an afterthought in Arizona, comes in and just playing excellent for the Saints as their secondary pass rusher. And now I'll be really curious to see what happens with how teams attack that defensive line, New Orleans now, because O'Kefers out for the season. So we're going to see Andrew Whitworth going against whoever, you know, Holoika Caha. I mean,

just guys that are not, they don't scare you whatsoever. So now what happens? Do teams start shifting their coverage or shifting their protection to Cam Jordan constantly? Do teams just start sliding their protection toward Cam Jordan on every single play? Because of that, do the Saints start using Cam Jordan

on different sides? He's mostly their left defensive end, but they'll do a lot of stuff with him. He'll line up as a five technique sometimes. He'll line up as a stand-up outside linebacker on the other side occasionally. Do they try to get more creative just to give him more opportunities

because it's going to be easier for teams to game plan. I think that's something where we don't talk about it often enough. When you lose one of your two pass rushers, it really does matter because that group works in concert not quite to the level of the offensive line, but more than it seems. So I'll be curious to see what that looks like on Sunday and going forward because one of the reasons I think Jordan is having the season of his career is that he has help now on that defense. One, in the secondary, you know, teams aren't being able to, they can't get the ball at half a second. And two, you had to worry about Okafor who was getting single-teamed all the time over there because you have to

worry about Jordan. So it all works together. And I'm just curious when you remove this one factor from a surprising Saints defense, what ends up happening. Hey, real quick on the Ramso line, Andrew Whitworth obviously added, I love Andrew Whitworth. I did my obligatory Jeff Fisher joke yesterday while watching Case Keenham win a game on Thanksgiving to put his team to nine and two. And I got, there were a couple people who came at me and they were just like, they were like, oh, you know, you think that Jeff Fisher was the only thing that mattered there. Like look at the offensive upgrades, et cetera, et cetera. If, if Whitworth never comes, if Robert Woods never comes, if it's just the same team as last year, but golf is starting the whole year. How good is this Rams team? Just taking away Jeff Fisher. What are they now? Seven and three. Yeah. I think they're five and five probably. Five. Yeah. That's my.

my, that's my guess. Yeah. I think that the other thing is just the additions they've made that are quieter than Whitworth and Woods. I mean, John Sullivan is a real NFL center. And putting Roger Saffel between John Sullivan and Andrew Whitworth has made him better. It's just as a small upgrade.

Robert Haventstein is playing the best football of his career at Wright tackle. He's going to have his hands full on Sunday, but he's had a really nice season. So I think that, again, it all starts to come together just in quiet ways. Todd Gurley being so much better this year. I mean, it's not just the guys they've added. It's just how the guys they've added make their players around them better. Also, Jeff Fisher sucked. Correct.

All right, let's move on. Coming up, Danny Kelly is here with a special Black Friday batch of dark nights. Plus, we'll predict next week's headlines. But first, a quick break. Robert, the holidays are just around the corner. What are you getting me? Something cheap, seeing as if I don't have much extra cash laying around, which doesn't have to be the case if you're betting with mybooky.ag.

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Use their promo code ring or NFL to activate the offer. Visit MyBooky.agee. Today, you play, you win, you get paid. Time to welcome in Danny Kelly, our fantasy football genius. It continues to say genius in all caps, Danny. It's just because we use the same doc every week. Copy and paste is a powerful tool. It really is.

Danny, how was your Thanksgiving? Oh, man, it was great. It was excellent. We don't do the turkey thing in the Kelly family. We ate steak. Wow. That's awesome. That's incredible.

So is it just like a big pile of steaks? Yeah, we did steaks. We did a little homemade, makeable pizzas and shrimp. It was bomb. That's not Thanksgiving. That's called dinner. That's called Big Dinner. It's called eating what you want to eat, which is our philosophy over here.

This is the first year where I've just kind of eschewed the turkey. I had some, but it was just such a minor part of my meal. My plate, my brother and I, we always documented to see who is better, which is a presentation. And there's a little pile of turkey in the middle, and around it was just everything. The amount of stuffing in mashed potatoes I ate yesterday was inhumane. I'm not proud of it. I actually kind of am. I just think it was kind of shameful.

All right, Danny, you have four Dark Nights. Hit us with them. So this week we're going a little bit deep on these Dark Nights guys. These are a few that are, if you're kind of in desperation mode at this point in the year, these guys might come in handy. You might say that the bargains of the fantasy football world, Danny, considering it's Black Friday. You might say that. Oh, yeah, this is the Black Friday version of Dark Nights.

I got you. Don't worry. I got an eye on Cooper Cup this week. Robert Woods is out with his shoulder injury. I think that could mean Cup is a bigger part of the offensive game plan. I think he's already kind of, you know, he's already sort of turning into golf's go-to guy in terms of sort of over the middle, you know, on third downs and things like that. He's had a couple of big drops the last couple of weeks, but I still think he's going to be a huge part of that offense.

29 targets last four games. He's still actually fourth in the NFL right now in red zone targets, which is kind of crazy. going up against a really tough Saints defense, but Marshawn Lattimore is probably going to be out, which could spread them a little bit more thin. And I think Cub is probably going to be right, like, line up on the inside anyway. So he's a guy to keep an eye on.

And if you really have issues at receiver this week, he could be a guy to go with. What's his name, Kevin? Cooper Cooper. We're trying to get Kevin to get that right going from here on out, but he's still having trouble. Why doesn't he just go with Cooper Cooper? It's a good question.

I agree, Danny. We talked about this a little bit earlier. I just feel like they're going to have to piecemeal together those kind of short area routes that Woods gives golf. And that's, and Coop is, God damn it. I just did it. And Cup is definitely the most logical guy to go that way. You're starting to see the dark side. All right. Who else you got? All right. So here's another one for you. Zay Jones are the bills. I mean, obviously I think this guy's gotten a bad rap. Yeah, sell this to me, buddy. He's had a bad rap this year for sure. And I get it. But he's got 19 targets in the last three weeks. Calvin Benjamin's kind of, I don't know if he's out for sure, but he's going to be hobbled with that knee injury. You know, they're going to get Tyrod Taylor back on the field, so you don't have to worry about the Peterman disaster.

And the Chiefs past defense has been a mess this year. I don't know if they're going to have been out. Is he going to play this week? I don't know if you can expect much. I don't know. I don't care what they plays. I just want to talk about how they did the signing photo with him. Did you guys see this?

and it was just a legitimate blank sheet of paper in front of them. That was awesome. I can't believe that a guy who maybe deserves to be in the Hall of Fame is just like signing with a team in week 12. It's so weird. I can't believe with how much bad cornerback play we've seen in the NFL that Derell Revis is actually a reasonable option for a team, if it took this long.

I think his second half of the year last year was decent. you know, relative to his first half. Yeah, I guess. He's going to have, there are going to be 50 balls thrown his way if he, when he plays. Yeah. So anyways. I think that the thing about Revis and this,

this has been true of a lot of free agents over the last couple of years, specifically with the new CBA and all that, is knowing what to do, just general competence, is valued in an all-time high because there's just so many rookies who just get lost in the system and have no idea what they're supposed to do. I'm not saying that's, issue in Kansas City. But I remember, like, three years ago, when Jeremy Shockey, been out of the league, there was a coach who was like, I want Shockey. He was talking to me.

And I was like, Jeremy Shockey, like, what the hell? And he's like, he was like, he just, he's a veteran. He knows what to do. Like, he knows how to run plays. Like, you'd be, you know, but he's like, you'd be surprised at the percentage of players who just have no clue what to do. That makes sense, but still. That's how, that's how Durel Revis gets a job. All right. Who's your next guy? Danny? All right, so we got Tyler Croft, tight end of the Bengals. Last time the Bengals went up against Cleveland, he had six, or he had six catches for 68 yards and two touchdowns.

He's kind of been, you know, a real, real light version of Tyler Eifert for them in the red zone. He had a touchdown last week, too. He's not a heavily targeted guy at all, but the Browns have a really bad, they've been really bad against tight ends this year. So I think that is one of those just matchup-based plays. that you could potentially make this week, and I think you'd be in good shape. Now, again, like I said, Danny, Danny, did you say the Browns have been bad against tight ends this year?

Does it have something to do with them being bad against every position on offense and defense? That could be a factor, yes. Danny, also, what part of this is the fact that you have Tyler Croft in the matchup we have this week, and you desperately need him to play well because I had Kyle Rudolph yesterday, and this is like for the playoffs. I think you'd actually, I think there's probably been like at least one dark night for each of my teams. I'm just like speaking it into existence. You're talking yourself into it, which is incredible.

Yeah, I put in Kyle Rudolph like 10 minutes before the game yesterday and it may save my season. Hey, you know what? I just made it happen. I hope Tyler Croft does not do that for my own sake is all I will say. Yeah, exactly. All right. Who's your last guide, D.K.? All right.

So my last guide, and this is another one that's kind of just like, it's a real. risky play, but you got to do what you got to do this week is the Devonte Booker, the Broncos. Yeah. Going up against the Raiders, uh, whose run defense has been, you know, really bad this year. Uh, they, they got to run running back by committee in Denver right now, which is always kind of a fear, but he out snapped CJ Anderson last week, 48 to 29. Um, you know, he's kind of turning into like their most explosive option, I think. And he's also pretty good in the passing attack. So, you know, and not a lot, just generally not a lot of explosion. on that Broncos.

Exactly. So you've got to be looking for some answers somewhere. And you got the Paxson Lynch wrinkle in this whole thing. Obviously, I think they'll try and lean on the run game to take some pressure off of the, you know, the new starter this week. And I don't know. So it's obviously a risky play, but the Raiders defense is the matchup you're looking for right now. Rinkle is a good phrase there, the Paxon Lynch wrinkle. The wrinkle.

The guy was a first round pick and now he's a wrinkle. All right. And apparently, Danny, you've got one more. And this is probably the darkest night. This is the darkest Black Friday night you could imagine. This is the one that had their spine severed by Bain that's been working out for six months. I think he's emerging now. You guys are going to laugh at this.

This is how dark this night is. But I think if you're absolutely completely desperate for running back, you could potentially go with Thomas Rawls. He was inactive last week. But Mike Davis got hurt, of course, because the Seahawks running backs just can't stay healthy. I mean, we've seen what Eddie Lacey's done this year. He's not going to be their Belkow guy. J.D. McKissick is more of like a change of pace guy, third down guy. The CX just don't have anyone else to run at this point.

ProCise is on the IR, I think. And this is a matchup-based guess right here because the 49ers have been really bad against the run. They've given up 110 plus yards in the ground game in five out of less six games. I think the game script will set up well for the Ciox in terms of, I don't see them, you know, falling behind and having to turn to their passing attack. They're still, even though their run offense has been terrible, I think they still want to get that going desperately. I know Pete Carroll does.

So I think that they're going to try and run a lot this week. And I think the Seahawks only have like, I think they only have like two rushing touchdowns this year. And maybe it's just they're just like due for another one. So I don't know. Again, this is, oh, and the other actually, the other factor is, looks like Luke Jokul might be back this week. Oh man, Luke Jockel. That really shifts things for me. This is the perfect storm.

The band is back together. Listen to me. Going back to what Kevin was talking about earlier, it's like the CX finally have some guys that have actually played offensive line and have some snaps in the NFL. Like, I'm going to take that as a positive because you got Dwayne Brown. They're going to sign Dorel Rivas to play left tackle.

Mine as well, man. So anyways, yeah, these are the factors. Obviously, this is the darkest of dark nights. if you're having to play Thomas Rawls this week, like you're probably not going to be in great shape, but I think he could be a playable option if you're absolutely desperate. And thus ends our segment called Danny Kelly

tries to use a podcast to Will everything he wants into existence. Thank you very much, Dan. Do I have Rawls on my team? I hope not. No, but he's on your real football team. Real team. Your real team. Yeah, okay. Oh, that makes sense. Yeah. It's all subconscious.

Daner. Have a good holiday weekend, buddy. Thank you very much. Enjoy that leftover steak and pizza. See you, bud. That is what happens. At some point, one of the Kelly children had to have called for that menu, right? Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's just like, I don't like turkey. Yeah, and I do like pizza. That's great. I'm a big fan of that. You know what? Live your best life on Thanksgiving. That's what this is about. I'm joining the Kelly family.

It's over. Oh, man. I'm moving to the Pacific Northwest. I'm going to wear flannel. All right, before we get out of here, we're going to predict next week's biggest headlines. Robert hit us quickly. Mine's going to be something we talked about a little bit earlier. I just think that last week's debacle for the Packers happened in a game that 17 people watched.

I mean, if a game... We had the same headline here. If a game between the Packers and Ravens is a 23-0 shutout in the middle of the afternoon, and does it make a sound? I think that's kind of what last week was. And now we have a primetime game against a team that can light you up at home in primetime. We saw that against Tennessee last week. I just feel like this is going to be a walkover for the Steelers.

and you just, they're not going to be able to hide. Everybody in the Packers organization is going to be just completely front and center with how terrible this team has looked and it's going to be time to find an answer. Totally agree. That was my thought too. The Ravens game was sort of a slow burn. It was also such a visually unarresting disaster. Yep.

That I just didn't even want to watch it. You know what I'm saying? Like, I just didn't even, I don't know how bad the Packers looked. I obviously saw the tape and saw a lot of the plays. But like when it was live, it was just. just like, I don't want to spend any time with this game. And so I think the nation sort of checked out. You can't check out now.

It's exactly what you're saying. This is going to be really ugly. They're going to get torched. Chernockville and move the ball. You know, some of those athletes on the defensive side of the ball for Pittsburgh are going to have some great turnovers against Brett Hundley. It's going to be ugly.

So on Monday, we're going to be talking about what the Packers are without Aaron Rogers. Yeah, I totally agree. And it's one of the, I mean, they're going to miss the playoffs. And it's kind of crazy to think about how many straight years they've just been penciled in,

even when he was hurt for that stretch. He came back in week 17. They wouldn't have been there without him. The Bears would have won. I believe that in my heart. And now we're just not in that world anymore. It's too many weeks. The team is too terrible.

And I think as they're kind of sitting home, as the rest of the teams are cruising toward the postseason, it's going to come to a roar. I mean, just every kind of question about this franchise. I just want to be clear. The Packers got insanely bad because they, now have a backup quarterback and they were forced to do that. The Buffalo bills willingly became insanely bad.

Yeah, this is year one of that though. I feel like this is year, however many of Aaron Rogers being the Packers entire team. That is so funny to me. Yeah, it is pretty great. We could do this all day. I know. I could talk about the bills from. I just go spend some time with my family.

I think it's required today. No, I know. I imagine, I'm just going to just get everybody around the table for leftovers and talk about the bills. They have no idea what I'm talking. about, but that'd be great. All right, that's it for today. We'll be back on Tuesday with the recap for Week 12. As always, thanks for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network. Thanks, guys.