The Ringer NFL Show - The Antonio Brown Helmet Saga and Potential Preseason Trades | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: August 14, 2019

What is the Bucs' ceiling with Jameis Winston and Bruce Arians? Plus, will Antonio Brown’s eventful offseason have on-field ramifications (12:35), should the Redskins trade Trent Williams, and should the Texans trade Jadeveon Clowney (21:50)? Finally, a check-in with Dak Prescott’s contract negotiations (32:30). Host: Robert Mays, Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You know what you want? Football. And not just a game or two. All of them. But you can't get DirecTV where you live. No problem. This is an issue that I have. Stream 2019 NFL Sunday ticket on your favorite devices. No satellite required.

Get every live out-of-market game every Sunday afternoon. Go to NFL sundayticket.com. To see if you are eligible. Use promo code Ringer at checkout to save 15%. To the Ringer NFL show. I'm Robert Mays. I'm joined as always by Kevin Clark. Kevin, how you doing, buddy?

I'm doing okay. You're still on the road. I'm at home. You seem pretty tired. We were just talking before. You thought you lost your recording equipment. You did not. I'm not tired as much as I'm just so oriented.

I wake up in the mornings and I just have no idea where I am. I pulled into Tampa at 2.30 a.m. last night. I woke up and just was looking out my window. I was like, where is this? I think that's a pretty typical thing. And then I thought I had just lost my podcast recording equipment. Not knowing where you are at 2.30 in the morning in Tampa is actually a pretty common forward.

experience. So I was driving from Atlanta to Tampa last night, and I'm driving down 75. And then as I get close to the Florida border, I just see these huge lightning strikes in the distance. I'm like, yep, that sounds right. That's what we're known for. Here we go. So, and I also pulled off in Valdosta to just take a break and to like kind of split the drive at half, like half an hour and eat some dinner. And I walked out and next to this pond, there were just 40 frogs screeching at one another. It's like, well, definitely close to Florida now. They took a video of it or something, right? I did. I did. Because it literally sounded like an electronic song. It was ridiculous. It was such a strange kind of thing. And there's been a lot

of that. But I was with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in Miami Dolphins today. Talked to Bruce Arias a little bit. Talked to a couple other people. It's been a good stretch, though. You know, it's for all the discombobulation, it's worth it in the end. That sounds, that sounds productive. I've not been to Tampa in a while, even though it's, you know, an hour and a half, 80 miles from my home in Orlando. They're not, what's where I'm looking for, ever good? Yeah, and they're not ever interesting. You can be not good, but if you have something noteworthy about you, then maybe you're worth some interest.

So I got on the beat in 23rd, 12. on 2013, is that right? 2014? Yeah, sort of around that. I didn't do a lot of traveling. Following the league, following the league in a reporting way of 2013. So in that time period,

what is the most interesting thing the Bucks have ever done? Higher Bruce Arons. Do you think that's true? Yeah. Well, they had this couple of, they had a couple of weird free agent splurges.

Yeah, I mean, outside of... They had that one year where a bunch of guys got Mersa and they got sued. Yeah, that was fun. The only thing outside of choices they had to make based on their own incompetence, which is having the number one pick and taking James Winston when he was the best player in college football, I'd probably say is hiring Bruce Ariens. Everything else they did before that was retread nonsense that should inspire no one to care about them.

And now this one was an actually decent coach coming back for a specific reason after he had retired and not been necessarily fired unceremoniously. You, I cannot believe Dirk Cutter was their coach last year. Yeah. I feel like it was a completely different era. The Bucks are one of those teams that

was like their results year by year, you kind of think like, oh, they're probably like seven and nine or whatever just because they're so boring. They're much worse than that every single year. They win like five games a year. And I think that's why this year is worth watching,

because I do think they'll be better. I mean, they can only go up. The Dirk Cutter, thing. I remember Patrick Daughtry said this about was it the John Fox era. It was the John Fox era because you're talking about the Jeff Fisher era where when you're watching it, it seems like they were just hired to be fired.

When you're watching it, so he was making the point about John Fox, but he was also kind of hearkening back to the Jeff Fisher era. When you're looking at it, you're looking and you're like, that guy is very soon going to be the ex-coach of this team. That's what you're processing when you're looking at that. Yeah, absolutely. Who's like that right? teams operate like that.

I mean, I kind of get Jay Gruden vibes. I don't think Jay Gruden was hired to be fired, though. I think Jay Gruden turned out to be better than we thought. I think Jay Gruden is actually a pretty good coach. But I think everybody in Washington is also kind of hired to be fired. I think kind of tying into what I've been writing all week, I think that the league has tried to be a little bit more progressive and innovative in the tires, even if I think that a lot of them are misguided.

So I think in this recent cycle, we got far fewer retres than we've ever had before, right? I mean, Adam Gase, but outside of that, it seems like teams were trying to go in a slightly new direction where it feels like they're trying to be successful.

They're not just putting a guy there with no chance to succeed. Well, I want to talk about that because you went to Arizona and met with Cliff Kingsbury. And I think that non-gace division, that might be the most, mysterious hire of this cycle.

Does that work, Robert Mays? I don't know if it works. I know their thought process behind it now. I had a long talk with Kingsbury. I'd long to talk with Steve Khyme, just about how this all came about. And it really does seem like the Cardinals are chasing the trends

harder than any other team. And I'm writing about this for tomorrow. They're the next team in my series of play caller stories. You know, everybody, all of these teams to some degree are trying to follow this. Sean McVeigh, Matt Nagy, Frank, Rick.

Not the Dolphins, baby. Coach Floh. But a lot of these teams are. And I think that the Cardinals are combining that with other trends that are hot right now. I mean, you think about this. A year after a 5-11, 6-foot quarterback from Oklahoma showed that he's viable in the NFL, the Cardinals drafted one number of one overall. The year after Sean McVeigh's team went 13 and 3,

the Cardinals hired their own Sean McVeigh carbon copy. They literally put it in the press release about hiring him that he was friends with Sean McVeigh. And as teams around the league It was quickly deleted, by the way. Quickly deleted, but it did happen.

Yeah, and as teams around the league have kind of adopted some air raid principles, you know, whether it's a philosophy or certain concepts, all of that, the Cardinals said, well, fuck it, we're just going to hire an air raid coach. they've taken all of this as far as it can possibly go

and maybe that works but there's definitely a lot of risk inherent in it I googled Coach Flo to see that because everyone in New England called him Flo and then I just looked and some stories have it spelled F-L-O-W which I-I-N-Sane

I don't think, I think it was just a reporter misheard that anyway that's not important what's important what's important is a couple of things Number one, I think that actually, if Brian Flores is the best defensive coach available in that cycle, he will end up being better than a lot of the offensive coaches. Just because it's something I've talked about a number of times, which is, you know,

if you hire seven offensive coaches, you know, you're going to end up with a lemon. There's going to be at some point, there's only going to be four maybe good coaches out of them. I don't know who they're going to be, but I've certainly got some feelings on it. But I just think that if I was Arizona, I understand the need to chase the trends, do all that stuff, you know, be modern, whatever. I'm certainly on board with that. That's what I talk about every week. But why not just give Cliff Kingsbury a bunch of money to be offensive coordinator? Because they wanted their head coach to be their play caller.

Yeah, I know. That was a demand. That seems like that's backwards. every single person they interviewed for the job was an offensive coach that would also double as their play caller. Yeah, but not everybody had been fired by a college team and didn't have that guy... I understand that.

I'm just... I am communicating their thinking to you. I am open to the idea that Cliff Kingsbury's offense can work and that can solve everything. I'm just saying from a decision-making standpoint, better things could be made. All right, so who's going to be better in 2019? The Bucks or the Cardinals?

The Bucks. How good are the Bucks going to be? I think they can go 500. I think they play in a very tough division. I think that's the best division in the NFL. With the NFC North being a slate runner-up. Okay. Can I throw out a third potential best division?

The AFC North. Yeah, I could see that. I don't know how good Baltimore is going to be. I think they're going to be fine. I think their defense is going to keep them in it. I have, I don't know, man. I have questions about that defense. I think Earl Thomas is good.

Hey, listen, do you know how many times the Bucks have won 10 games since 20, the end of 2010? Probably none, right? Zero. Absolutely zero. Yeah, I mean, who would they have won 10 games under? Greg Shiano? No, it's been terrible.

Yeah, it's been terrible. Yeah, it's been terrible. I mean, they won 10 under Rahim Morris. They haven't made the playoffs since 2007 when I was like a sophomore in college. Yeah, they've been terrible. I mean, I think that's why the Ariens thing makes sense. I think I was at their last playoff game as a fan. I talked to Arians today for a while, and he, you know, I'm just talking about the structure

there, and it's so much different than it ever has been for him because he's always called plays as a head coach since he took the job in Arizona. And I'm going to write about this a little bit later. I don't want to step on it, but he pretty much told me it was going to take the perfect set of circumstances for him to even be a head coach again. And that set of circumstances involved him not calling plays, which if you've ever, ever talked to him about that before is shocking. But there's a specific reason for that,

and I'll be writing about it next week. So I think that their staff is much better than anything they've had in a long time. I think he's a good head coach. I think Todd Bowles is a good defensive coordinator. I'm curious to see what their offense will look like with Byron Lefwich. I think that he's a nice pairing for James Winston

for a lot of different reasons. So I think they have more cause for optimism than they've had in a while. What is James Winston's ceiling as a quarterback? It's a fascinating question. I've been listened to a lot of football podcasts this week. And just the varying... Who do you listen to?

I was listening to the Fantasy Focus podcast with Field Yates and Matthew Barry. I love those guys. I've been listening to Move the Sticks every time they put on an episode. Very, very good. I would listen to a couple Pro Football Focus podcast. I've been listening to the Dannessy Show. I mean, I've been in the car for like 40 hours in the past two weeks. And I was listening to I'll be gone in the dark, the Michelle McNamara book.

Yeah, I listened to that a couple of months ago. It's quite good. It's very good. And the writing is incredible. She has a particular way with certain descriptors that I was inspired by. But it's one of those things where I don't like... Are you going to just start... Are you going to become a true crime guy?

Sure. Maybe I mean, I enjoy true crime. But the problem was I'd be listening to it, especially when there were a couple times where I was driving late at night and I was staying at like highway side motels or like smaller hotels that I... There was only one layer of defense. between me and the outside world, I was not super comfortable.

There's a lot of lines in that book about waking up to people standing over your bed. And I was like, I don't know if I need to listen to this right now. So I pivoted back to podcast when the sun would go down. Speaking of being terrified at all times,

let's get to the Antonio Brown saga in Oakland, California. Just so the listener knows. Just so the listener knows. I tried to do that. And I said, speaking of true crime, and that is completely bungled the joke.

And then I cut it. and then Mays was like, I'll try. And that's how we got to what just happened. I'm a radio professional. Yeah, I'm just stumbling over here. I'm trying to tell jokes that don't even make sense, or maybe they do, but, you know.

So as we got off the rails a little bit in the beginning of the show, I became a terrible host. We were going to talk about some NFL news today, including Antonio Brown, Trent Williams, Devin Clowney, people that are doing strange things and or possibly being traded before we get to our camp tidbits from the last time that we record it.

So let us be begin with amateur helmet artist Antonio Brown. So are we, since we've recorded, this has taken on, the last time we recorded a podcast, I'm sorry,

5, 4, 3. The last time we recorded a podcast, he had not made this crazy helmet the declaration. It started to come out right after we wrapped our last episode. It was almost immediately after. The Mike Sober Tweet Storm.

Just, yeah, I thought about maybe bringing the band back together and doing an emergency pod, but we'll make this our emergency pod four days later. Now, a couple things to unpack. Number one, I was driving pretty much the whole day. And so I got these updates sort of sporadically. I was the same way. And so I see the first thing, I was like, this kind of weird.

Antonio Brown wants to hold helmet, whatever. And then I get out for lunch and I just see Antonio Brown might walk away from the game. This escalated really quickly on that, on that three. three-hour drive. That anchorman meme has never been more useful than it wasn't the San Antonio Brown situation. And then I'm on the flight last night and I see like the bottom line on ESPN because I had that on. And there were just like Tom Brady's, you know, weighs in on new helmets. And it's like, what happened to this news cycle?

This is amazing. This is exactly what you want for a day bonkers news cycle on August 20. wealth. The best part about this is that since this happened, you and I have been hanging out in NFL locker rooms since all this Antonio Brown stuff has gone down. And I'm not going to mention names or anything, but every single place I've been, dudes are just openly roasting Antonio Brown. Yeah. It was this the number, it was the number one conversation in every locker room I was around over the last week. What's number two? I don't even know if there's even a possibility. I got one.

You know what guys talk about a lot? The feet and the helmet are one and two. You know what the... Number three, guys talk about Bitcoin more than you think. That was not happening when I was around. Bitcoin just out of the locker rooms. No more Bitcoin.

Antonio Brown is unbelievable. There were just jokes being cracked left and right. So as we kind of take all of this in totality, here is my question to you. I pose this to you, Kevin Clark. Does any of this shit matter? Should we care about any of this as it relates to, one, the Raiders decision to trade for Antonio Brown? And two, how it affects the Raiders this season and beyond.

Great questions. Does this have on-field applications or team-building applications that we should actually talk about? So there's a couple, obviously, I mean, there's, how many things are there to unpack? 700? So we'll just unpack like two. Let's unpack two. Now, I think that the most important part of the Silver Report was that Brown had gone basically radio silent with his coaches. And that was the frustrating part for them.

The helmet thing, it's kind of weird, whatever. The foot thing is obviously certainly important if that's a lingering injury. If the foot thing becomes an injury that goes into the season, that automatically who comes to most important thing. I'm not worried about that because it seems like he could play now if you wanted to. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm just saying that if that becomes a legitimate injury, then that's the most important thing. But for me, the most important thing is communication with the coaches.

Being in the meeting rooms and I guess paying attention has been an issue at this point. But I mean, we've all been there. And so I think that... First week of school, you're not into it. Yeah, school or work. And so I think that there's probably some bigger issues. Having said that, they only gave up two mid-round picks for them. They gave them money.

But they paid him a lot of money. Yeah, they gave them money, but there's, you know, there's a lot of money in the NFL these days. I wrote about that today. Wrote about that every week for the past three years. A lot of money to spend. And so I think that it's not, it is not a catastrophe. You know, the Raiders are not going to, we're not expected to win the Super Bowl. This isn't like Odell joining the Browns where he has to instantaneously click.

It's not a catastrophe if it takes a little while for Antonio Brown to click. All you, essentially, he will be at some point Antonio Brown, and that, will make their investment in him worth it. I tend to think that too. I feel like as a player, he will be Antonio Brown. And I don't know what that version looks like with Derek Carr. But I think that his talent and just what he is, as a football player, will be the Antonio Brown that we've come to know,

even if his production doesn't quite match up. Here is my question. What are the Raiders? Because if that guy is, this has been my... Actually, we don't have time for this. We don't have time to explain the Raiders. This is a two-hour conversation. Here is my thought about this.

My problem with the Raiders was not the money they spent. Because, as you said, the money is essentially endless at this point. Every single person will tell you that. And it is. But I still think that you need some sort of cohesive team-building philosophy and plan. And the Raiders just threw their money around haphazardly in ways that didn't seem to connect at all. And now you have a guy who is the second most expensive player on your team for now,

but definitely the highest profile player on your team. And that guy is doing some weird stuff that feels like it's not a, I don't know if it's not even like setting an example. This, you know, this isn't like school. Oh, it would be a real tragedy if the Raiders ever had an employee who was doing weird stuff. Yes, but that's not what I'm saying. I just think that when you have guys at the top of your organizational structure, you would hope that those are the guys that set the tone for the rest of your building. And I just feel like it had been Pittsburgh that was never going to happen because Ben Rathesberger is Ben Rathesberger.

He's going to the Hall of Fame. He's won two Super Bowls. But that's not the case in Oakland. That's not the case at all. I mean, he is definitely the most well-known high-profile member of that organization. And I just feel like if that's where you're going and you build a team of mercenaries, and if one of the mercenaries is completely out of control when it comes to how he acts in your building and interacts with your coaching staff, I just don't think that can be a good thing. Am I overrating this? I don't know. I do want to address that point.

I do want to take a quick detour. When Ben Rothesberger makes the Hall of Fame, will you by that point have a credential for it? No, I absolutely will not. I think I'm banned for it for the rest of my life. And you know what? If he makes it and Philip Rivers doesn't, and they're eligible the same year. I probably shouldn't have one because I would have your own

whole fan. I would make a scene. I would make a scene if that happened. So don't worry. Okay. It's in the benefit of all parties for me not to be invited. Okay. All right. So I listen at no point since John Gruden took over.

I'm happy there was a thread today around NFL media talking about how important it is to say I don't know in certain situations, right? And what I want to say is that at every single turn of the Raiders since John Gruden was hired, I've had no idea what's going on. I've compared him to,

as we've discussed, John Mullaney's bid on the horse in the hospital. Yeah. I was going to say the exact same thing. Yeah. And I've written that before. And I think that there's the unpredictable nature

for a lot of folks in that organization, whether that's Mark Davis, whether that's John Gruden, whether that's Antonio Brown, a couple other guys. I'm just It's a It's a

I think chaos can be good in the NFL I'm not saying that having Unpredictable folks Who say weird stuff Is disqualifying from From competition in the NFL I'm just saying that if they've got a plan I'd like to see it at some point

Yeah I think that you know The Trumpian comparison is not unfounded Because I feel like there's an inclination To at some points when they do stuff that seems normal to say, okay, maybe they're figuring it out. Maybe this isn't the weirdest shit we've ever seen in the history of the world.

And then you have stuff like this where it's, I'm going to go smash the baby incubators. Like, that's exactly what this is. And I just, I feel like I should stop getting lured into those moments where it seems like some sort of normalcy is creeping into that organization. The incubator line is from the John Mullaney bit, just everybody knows.

Yes. Yes. He's not actually suggesting that the Raiders are going to a children's hospital at any point and causing having. They probably shouldn't be a lot of children's hospital. I mean, I mean, training camp is, you know, we've got three more weeks of this.

All right. Let's move on to actual football things. I want to talk about Trent Williams because... Really good. There was a report this week from Adam Schaefter that said that the Redskins had taken calls on Trent Williams,

but had no plans to trade him. And I have some thoughts about that. Because my response to that is, why? Why would the Raiders? Why wouldn't they trade him? The Redskins. Yes.

Because if you're Washington, you're going nowhere. There are teams out there that would be desperate for him. I would almost promise you that Texans would give you a first round pick for Trent Williams. So if you're Washington, what is the argument against that? And I'll throw out mine quickly. I think it's that if you want to play Dwayne Haskins this season and you believe Trent Williams will play for you again this season, then you don't want to put him in harm's way because his development is the only thing that matters for your franchise.

To me, that is the only argument to make is that you truly believe that Williams is buffing, and that he will play for you this year and that you need him to protect your franchise quarterback for the next decade, you hope. Anything outside of that, I don't understand. It'd be really easy for the Texans GM to just call up the Reds. Oh, wait, I'm sorry.

The Texans traded for a player since we started making that joke. Yeah, I know. Duke Johnson. And we will get to some more Texans stuff here in a second. We will? I assume so. Don't the Texans have a player? They're actively shopping right now. Isn't that one of the other news bits?

I was the one who came up with the idea to talk about. I was like, we should talk about this too. And then I completely forgot. Okay. It's okay. Trent Williams, last three years, according to PFF, I think he's the third best tackle in the NFL. Really good.

Injury concerns, but still very talented. Certainly injury concerns. And should be noted, he's just refusing to play for his team right now, which is interesting. So I think he's awesome and I would invest a lot in him. He's on a five-year contract for 68. So his cap hits are 14, 13, then there's an out, then 14 and 14. That's, if you think that's the difference between, you know, not just competing at a high level,

but keeping your young, cheap quarterback healthy, that's worth it. Now, you think that the Texans having not picked in the first round after the Watson trade, you think they would trade a first round pick right now for Trent Williams? That's a good point. I think they may be more reversed with other people because they've been throwing draft assets away pretty willy-nilly over the last couple years. I also think he's the rare type of player where it's worth it. Yeah, you know, I had an interesting chat with Brett Veach, the Chiefs GM, last week,

and I said, you know, I talked about this. You haven't had, Veech has not had a first round pick because he had Mahomes. He took over after Mahomes drafted. And then Frank Clark. And then Frank Clark. And he was like, listen, like, yeah, that's, you want a first round pick, but you're going to get a really good young guy who can go after the quarterback and stop the run. Like, that's what you want a first round pick for. The money, obviously, I mean, he's making over $20 million a year.

So that's not what you want from, you know, from a cost control. perspective, but if you're the chiefs, like, you have the money. Yeah, that was the point he was making. That was the point he was making. When I say that he's making a lot, that's my words, not his. He basically, his point was Frank Clark was worth the first round pick.

And I, you know, he's a lot smarter than I am. Teams outside of Houston that you think this makes sense for. I think the one that jumps out immediately is obviously Cleveland. We've talked about the fact that they have Greg Robinson at their left tackle spot.

All in behavior there. I mean, they still have 35 million in caps. Yeah, but I mean, first-round picks are finite. If you were the Browns, would you do it tomorrow? We will trade you

Trent Williams for a first-round pick straight up. No, I'd offer a second. You'd offer a second, but if they demanded a first, would you eventually give? What if... You have John Dorsey's personality

at this point, by the way. Well, yeah. So the answer is, yes, you would do it. John Dorsey showed me a lot of his German vacation. photos. Went down the Ron River. How was that?

It was great. It was good. I enjoyed it. I would... You know what I would do? I would try to kick it down the road and wait until the season starts. That's fair.

I would want to see what kind of team I have. And if you lose out on them because somebody jumps ahead of you and accepts the first rounder, then you're going to live with it. At some point, though, do you want to see Trent Williams rejoin the Redskins?

What if they're like just coming? back, work out with us, and then we'll trade you. I would much rather see Trent Williams on a good team. I would love the Texans or Browns traded for him. I'm in complete agreement with you. Okay. Let's pivot a little bit

because one piece the Texans have to kind of shop around here, if they're looking for offensive line help, is Giusevian Clowney, who apparently they are trying to deal. He still has not shown up yet. So John McClain. John McClain from Museum Chronicles says he'd be surprised if he's not dealt. If he's not traded.

So, if we're looking at that option, it seems like there are a lot of teams around the league who could potentially use Jadevi and Clowning. The money would be tough with some teams. I could see the Ravens wanting a player like that considering their need for pass rush help. I could see the Eagles trying to trade some of their offensive line depth for Jadevi and Clowney because they need some more edge depth. I mean, that's one area. It's the only area of the roster that needs help at this point and they have a surplus of offensive tackles.

I think the Raiders could absolutely use some pass rush help at this point. There are plenty of teams on the table that could use him and could probably fit him under their cap. So, Jedevian Khan... Especially if they extend him

and that number goes down. Gedevian Clown, he's playing on the tag issue. When he signs it, it'll be worth $15.9 million. He's not... And he's not eligible for an extension until a year later because they missed the deadline for that.

A couple of things. number one, if you're the Texans, shouldn't you have shouldn't you have tried to get this done before the deadline so then they could sign an extension then maybe helping the value of the pick?

Do I have that backwards? I mean, I think that's what you want, right? I think you have that backwards, right? Why? Why would you want a team? I don't think a team would want to be locked into a contract that someone else signed. No, no, that's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying you trade him before the franchise tag deadline, like with the chief do it default. Oh, sure. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. But also, you're in the process of maybe trying to fire your GM at that point. Right. You're giving a team flexibility to immediately extend him,

which I think teams would want if they're giving up a higher pick. Do you know what I'm saying? So, like, again, that's where you'd love to have a GM. You just love to have a GM in your franchise. So, I don't know. I mean, he's the PFF has him as his second best Texans defender. J.J. Wad is obviously the best. What would you give up for clowning if you needed pass slash out?

So this is the thing about clowning to me, and this is why I don't mind the Texans trading him. I have said in the past multiple times, I would not want to be the person giving Djedevian clown $20 million a year. I think he's a fascinating player. I think he has some really pronounced skills against the run and he's super explosive, which is very sudden. I don't think he's nearly refined enough as a pass rusher for me to pay him like that. And that's why I don't mind the Texans not wanting to commit that sort of money.

Is there a team that's desperate enough to say it doesn't matter if he has holes in his game? We're still willing to do that. We're willing to give him the Frank Clark contract even if he's not as good as Frank Clark. I'd say the answer to that is probably yes, but I would not want to be the team who does it. So after the Frank Clark contract,

you know, do you think that there's going to be a situation of pass rush with all these young, good pass rushers, where defensive end become, their pass rusher in general, becomes sort of like quarterback, where it's such a valuable position and the players are being compensated to the point

that it's not about who's the best when it comes to pay, it's about who's the latest. And, you know, we haven't had that with non-quarterbacks. A lot of positions have stagnated. The wide receiver and corner are the two other super valuable spots. They're stagnated.

Within past, rusher are we getting in a situation where clowning gets 20.5 because Frank Clark got 20. I mean, I don't know. I mean, you know, Kalil Mack gets over 20, Aaron Donald gets over 20, Clark gets over 20. I'm wondering if now the market for a guy like Clowny is much higher than we think because of that. The Kalil Mack, the Kalil Mack contract as it currently exists, is kind of reminding me of some of the quarterback contracts that happened before the explosion. Right. Because Kalil Max cap hits over the next three years are 26.6, 26.6, 27.1. That is with the contract restructure that they had this year to get his cap it to 12. So those originally were around like 22, 23. And that was the point that

Peter King and others made at the time was at some, by the end of that contract, Max's deal will be less than 10% of the cap. Less of 10% of the cap and comparable to players at the same position who are much worse than Khalil Mack. Right. That's the important thing. You actually get a good player. Yes. And so, Khalil Mack being paid, his cap hits were about $23 million before the restructure. If Kaleel Mac's making, or if Frank Clark is making 21, I'm pretty fucking happy about paying Kaleo Mac 23. That doesn't bother me whatsoever. But I agree with you. I think that there's a really good chance that we just see this keep going up and up and up because it's all about leverage, right? And I think that that's why a player like Yadikin Gagwe, if I'm his agent, I'm sitting there talking to teams,

and I think that number starts at the DeMarcus Lawrence, Frank Clark stuff. Because Yankechengakwe has been a much more productive pass rusher than either of those players over his first three seasons. Yeah, I'm with you. I think the past rush market's going to be really interesting. I think so too. I think the Ingaquay deal on how that eventually kind of shakes out next spring because I do think he'll hit free agency. I believe that they would let him go without hitting him with the franchise tag because there are other players they might need to use it on. I'm really interested to see how that pairs out.

You know, I do have one question about yesterday's sort of weird carousel of Dack Prescott demand news. Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. We should have mentioned that. Well, no, we're mentioning it now. So the report comes out that he turned down 30 and maybe he wants 40 and then some other reporters say he didn't turn down 30, he hasn't been offered. Let's leave that alone for a second, what the actual particulars are. If Dak Prescott wants to force his way into free agency, he actually might end up making closer to 40, okay? Given the timing of when that would be,

given the timing where that would be, the problem is it's going to take a long time for that to happen. And there's going to be multiple franchise tags. There's going to be, you know, the fourth year, which is, I think, is he making two in this fourth year. So it's going to take a long time for him to get that money. And that's why you do these deals early. That's why the Carson-Wenst deal, guys,

it shouldn't be a surprise that the Eagles outsmarted everybody and got this Wens deal done before the market explodes. Yeah, and I think the golf deal will be done by just January 1st. I would be surprised if it wasn't done during this season. I completely agree with you. I mean, they've been talking about it for, I mean, I talk to Kevin Demmo with the Super Bowl, and he said that some of the beats were asking him, we're asking the team, you know, during the

playoff run, if he was going to sign an extension and they were just kind of like, can he give it a minute? Like, it's been such a foregone conclusion that I'm actually surprised, you know, hasn't happened yet. I think it'll happen soon. I think he'll add sooner rather than later. The deck thing, you say he could hit for, so if deck, let's play this out a little bit.

If DAC hit free agency this spring, who would sign him to a $40 million a year contract? Well So the team's in play theoretically Well wait Hold on But that's not really

You can't really look at it right now Because he's going to be If he was a free agent It'd be like three years from now But I'm just saying Hypothetically If he was right now If they just let him hit free agency

Who would give him $40 million a year The teams in play are But this is a useful exercise I don't think it is Because he's not going to be a free agent right now. It's more about how much Dallas should consider paying him because of the market. In two years, he might be on his way

to Chicago, Robert. You never know where that could develop. Trust me. That is fine with me. This is more of a thought of thought exercise about his value and about what Dallas should consider paying him. If he hit free agency this spring, who would give him $35 million a year? I mean... The teams involved, Tennessee,

Tampa, Cincinnati, Oakland. Okay. I mean, knowing what I know, it's probably probably probably be Tampa. That seems like a Tampa signing. There you go. Here's some money. I don't think teams are falling all over themselves to give

Dak Prescott $35 million. I understand that. But what I'm saying is he didn't, he, it's not, I don't think it's all that useful to look at the quarterback market right now. You look at it in two years, okay? Two years at minimum.

Okay. Who doesn't have a quarterback in two years? The dolphins might not. The damn patriots might not. Dolphins are definitely going to have a quarterback in two. years because they're going to draft one with the first overall pick next spring. You don't know that. What I'm saying is, is that if I had to make bets on it, that's what I would say.

Cincinnati Bengals in two years. I'm talking about after 2021, after 2021, okay? I don't, but I'm just saying it's about his value as it currently stands. The Pittsburgh Steelers might not have a quarterback in 2021. Sure, but I don't know if there's going to be more than four teams. I think next spring is a very big year for quarterbacks. I think the Titans will have a quarterback by then, because I think, they will have decided against Marcus Mariotta

by then. I think that Tampa will have a quarterback by then because they'll even have committed to James Winston or they'll start over again. I mean, I think that those teams probably will have quarterbacks, but there's probably another crap that will not. All you need is to look at Kirk Cousins. All you need is two teams. All you need is two teams. But listen, wait, we're getting,

we're sort of getting off target here, which is that Dak Prescott, in order to get to free agency is going to have to go through so much crap that I think he's going to end up to signing for 32. I agree with you. I understand that.

I'm talking about his value in sort of a vacuum. It's just like if you were considering his value just independent of... Wait, I mean, in a vacuum, he should make like $11 million a year. I mean, that's not really what happens with starting quarterbacks in this league. I gather that. But I'm just talking about the $40 million number and how ridiculous it is when you're considering what the demand for him would be outside of Dallas. That's it.

That's what I'm trying to say. When you're negotiating with your own team, it's all, basically. on hypotheticals. And the same way, on the other side, the franchise tag depresses values, the hypothetical situation of some rich owner saying, I need a quarterback, pumps them up.

So I just, I think that there's a quarterback value is by far, by far, the most irrational thing about football right now. And it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter what someone is worth from a literal production standpoint. It matters what someone wants to pay them. And you just need two desperate teams ready to drive the price up.

That's fair. But I just think that if you're going to have a shit, like the two choices on the table with Jack Prescott are, I will franchise him twice, and that will be it where I give him $40 million a year. I know which door I'm opening. I'm completely in agreement with you. But we do not run the Dallas Cowboys.

Someone else with a very different philosophy does. You could say that again. All right, let's get to your camp tidbits. I only went to... No, let's do that next show. Let's do that next show. I'll just...

I don't have... I only went to one team since the... No, we can wait because they're not super timely. I'd rather just... I'd rather not rush through them and actually have that be like a larger conversation

that we can have... So many tips. There's not so much news. You could have been to like... Have you been to four teams? Three teams? Yeah, but I'm not... I didn't even watch practice today in Tampa.

I was doing interviews the whole day. So I will... The Bucks and the Dolphins I'll have more stuff tomorrow anyway. Well, you're on the dolphins? The dolphins are here. Oh, wow. Yeah, dolphins are here.

So dolphins and the box are doing a joint practice. Is that a little Ryan Fitzpatrick revenge joint practice? There was so much interest in the Ryan Fitzpatrick press conference today. It was amazing. By the way, my favorite, I will give this one tidbit before we end the show here. The tidbit is I was sitting in the media room in Tampa and Warren Sapp walks in. Okay. And Warren Sapp spent the next 10 minutes loudly talking about which players should or should not be in the Hall of Fame and why.

And it was... Wait, which... Does he mean like players who will be potential Hall of Famers? Yes. He was railing against the idea that Troy Palomal, it was a first ballot Hall of Famer. It was just an unacceptable thought in his mind. Hmm. Interesting take from Warren Sapp.

He's got a lot of interesting takes. The joint practice, by the way, in Detroit with the Patriots, there was a huge Danny Amendoza interest because it's exactly what you're talking about, which is the Ryan Fitzpatrick angle. It's the confluence of two beats that are somewhat tied into one player, and everyone's just really into needing Ryan Fitzpatrick. Did Zap have any other good takes? He thinks that Terrell Davis should not be in the Hall of Fame,

just be based on career production. That's okay. I can understand that one. Palomalo is a trick. Probably Palomalo should be in the Hall of Fame. I definitely agree with you. He was just really talking about his guys. You know, he felt like John Lynch deserved to get in,

which I don't think is completely off base. But, uh... I agree. I think in a weird way, John Lynch, if John Lynch is a good executive, they'll put him in as a player. That's exactly what happens, which is so stupid. But...

Well, hey, listen, there's a lot of stupid stuff about this sport. All right. That's all we got for today, guys. We'll be back later this week. We'll get more. into the camp tidbits when there's a little bit less news to go around. Until then, as always, thank you guys so much for listening to the Ringer NFL show and the Ringer Podcast Network. We'll talk to you later.