The Ringer NFL Show - The Biggest Questions Heading Into Training Camp. Plus: The Modern Running Back With Brian Westbrook. | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: July 26, 2019

Which teams with cap space need to make a move, will the coaching overhaul in Minnesota and Green Bay make a difference, how many teams can win the Super Bowl, what are the Cardinals going to look like, and are we sleeping on the Chiefs? (2:40) Then, Brian Westbrook on the Eagles' potential this season, paving the way for the modern running back, Andy Reid stories, and more (41:10). Host: Robert Mays, Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly, and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. This week, we're debuting a brand new three-part podcast series with Quentin Tarantino and Amy Nicholson called Quentin Tarantino's feature presentation. Here's a quick trailer with more info. If you go to Quentin Tarantino's new Beverly Cinema in Los Angeles, you're going to hear that feature presentation song. And when the movie starts, you're going to step in to Quentin Tarantino's brain. If you own a movie or you own a print of a film, it feels like it's, you're going to be a film. your movie. Consequently, it's like if people really like the movie and they go, wow,

that movie was terrific. My response was, oh, thank you very much. I was like, I took credit for it because, well, it was my print. And I put the whole thing together to show it. So I actually felt like they were complimenting me. This is Quentin Tarantino's feature presentation, a new three-part

podcast miniseries hosted by me, film critic Amy Nicholson of Unspalled and Halloween Unmast. Before the release of his new film Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Quentin and I sat down to talk about five films that he's programmed at the new Beverly, and we wound up talking about his life, his work, and how this movie crazy kid became a director who defined a generation. Waiting for the lights to go down, and no one knows what to expect.

Is this going to be one of those special times? Is it not going to be one of those special times? It's going to be a forgettable time. The first episode of Quentin Tarantino's feature presentation is out later this week. It is the closest thing to sharing a bucket of popcorn with the man himself. So subscribe now wherever you hear podcasts. To the Ringer NFL show. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark.

Kevin, how you doing, buddy? I found a parking lot to record this in, and I feel a lot better than I did before. I found a parking lot to record this in. You were in that version of your life right now. I don't get there for another couple of days. I am still at home. You're welcome to join me in this Wendy's parking lot

somewhere in Southern Ohio. I am good. I am good. I will be picking up my rental car at 7 in the morning on Friday, and I will be driving that wonderful drive. at Green Bay, Wisconsin, and then I will be on the road from there. I'll be doing the Midwest swing. So later in the show, you're going to chat with Brian Westbrook.

You talked to him earlier today just about the state of the running back position, the moderate running back, everything else. That's going to be great. But we're on the eve of training camp here. And I feel like we should talk about the biggest remaining questions we have as the season's really about to get going. Some are going to be team specific. Some are going to be a little more wide-ranging.

So I'm going to start it off here because my first one is related to to some news from today. Mike Daniels, released from the Packers, were recording this on Wednesday. So a surprise move, but not that shocking. When you consider his age, the fact that he was a little banged up last year, he said to make $9 million against the cap. They spent a lot of money. I wrote about players that could be traded a couple weeks ago, and I almost put him on there. And I just felt like he was so linked with who they have been for so long. I was like, no, they're not going to trade Mike Daniels and just ship him off in a contract year. And they're not going to do him like that.

And then they did it worse. I guess being cut is better than being traded. Well, they try. The report is they try to trade them. The beat, the beat writers, some of the Packers beat writers are reporting this, that basically the Packers saw him as a situational pass rusher who is making

upwards of $10 million a year. And that's how you get cut. I really, really like Mike Daniels. He's going to help a team. He's going to be one of these guys who goes to a contender and we're going to wonder why the Packers let him go. It's the kind of thing where it's,

the two things are simultaneously. true. Number one, he still got it. Number two, the Packers aren't totally off base letting him go. I'm with you. I felt like, you know, the past rushers in Kansas City were a little bit like that, whether it was D. Ford or Justin Houston. I mean, it's surprising moves, but ones you can understand as you consider the context. So my question, as it relates to Mike Daniels and kind of the rest of the league, which team that is close is going to add that one piece that puts them over? And that could be something like Mike Daniels, where he gets cut and you pick him up as a free agent. That could be a trade.

John Dorsey, by the way, John Dorsey was in Green Bay when he was drafted. That's a team that absolutely could use him. They wanted Gerald McCoy. The moves I'm thinking of here, kind of stuff like the Ronald Darby trade, you know, a couple of years ago or what happened with Dante Fowler in the middle of the season, but similar where you have these teams

that have one specific hole and they're like, all right, we need this guy. We need this guy for it all to come together. Another example, strangely, even though we didn't really think it was a big deal of the time last year, was the Eli Apple trade. Yeah, that's another great example. Yes.

So those are mid-season deals, but I think that this is the same kind of conversation. Teams have a very good understanding of their roster by the end of training camp. Who are we going to see on the move? The one thing that keeps coming back to me, and again, it sucks so bad they don't have a general manager, is why aren't the Texas just training for Trent Williams? Oh, come on. It's because they don't have a general manager. I just, that it makes so much sense you have a team that, we'll never admit they're rebuilding

because the Redskins are never rebuilding. But it's a team that cannot do anything this year. You have either Case Keenham or Dwayne Haskins. It's a roster that is in such no man's land. Trent Williams has only $5 million, or has only a $1.9 million in dead cap after this season. He's set to make $14.8 million. I'm sure he wants a new deal.

The Texans can probably negotiate that cap number down. They have the second most cap space in the league after the Colts. You know, the Colts are a Mike Daniels team possibly. This is the advantage, Kevin, of having flexibility financially, even after you build your roster at this point in the year. Because if one of these guys comes available, you can pounce on him. Yeah, it reminds me, I mean, I'm not saying that the Colts couldn't have spent more money or whatever, but the Colts had second most or most cap space this year.

And both of us, at least me, made the argument they should go out and get some short-term guys. But they've got so much cap flexibility that if it's week three and they want to add a guy, they can. And I think that that's exactly we talk about when you, when you, I think people overlook cap space going into the season because it can be used as a very, very, very, very valuable property. Is there anybody that you would want to see on the move and a team that you think is one or two moves away from really helping themselves? Oh, geez. I mean, I think I still need Cleveland to get as good as possible. I understand that they have a, what looks to be honest, you know, A couple people have said this.

I mean, it looks like there's not a lot of holes on that roster with the exception of maybe offensive line. And I understand that maybe there's not a real guy out there to address that right now. But I don't know. I mean, it's, again, so many of these, I didn't think the Dante Fowler trade was going to work out. I didn't think the Eli Apple trade was going to work out. It's not necessarily about taking those big swings.

It's more about finding the one guy who fits your scheme to complete it in a way that no one really sees coming. I think the best sort of August, September, October moves have been under the radar the last couple of years. I've written about a couple of these guys. I think that some of them are more realistic than others. Yannick and Gacquay is holding out. I think it's going to take a lot to get him, and as it should. I mean, he's going to be a $20 million pass rusher. I mean, when his agent goes to the table, that conversation is going to start with the DeMarcus Lawrence money. And the Jaguars may not want to give him that consider the things that they've invested in that area. They dropped drafted Josh Allen this year in the first round, and there may be a team that thinks they can pry him away.

That one's a little bit more unrealistic, the one guy I keep coming back to, and you talk about the Browns and offensive linemen and how they rarely become available in the market, and they don't because they're so hard to come by. What about Vaitai, though? Because if you're the Eagles, I can understand really caring about offensive lines up when Jason Peters is there, but you have Andre Dillard now. So you have two backup tackles on your team that could be considered possible. starters. Maybe they don't think he's ready. Maybe this is an insurance policy. But if I'm a team that doesn't like its offensive line, either depth or just starting pair, I'm definitely making a phone call.

Hey, are there guys in your opinion who are bigger names that you'd think about trading? I mean, you look at a guy, I'm not saying you should. I would try to keep him. But just from from what's happening, you see Jalen Ramsey show up. Do you see the Brinks truck gimmick? I did see the Brinks truck. Yes. Okay. So how do you feel about this? I thought it was a good gimmick. It's a good bit. I'm pro-gimic. I'm pro-bit in that situation. Remember Antonio Brown showed up on a Rolls-Royce last year, two years ago, whatever it is. I am generally in favor of bits. I saw a former UFC fighter, Brandon Shob, now a stand-up comedian.

It's kind of roasting him for struggling with the doors on the Brinks truck. Which you got to. Here's the thing. If you're going to do that bit, you've got to have it all mapped out. you've got to have it all mapped out. So I thought it was okay. But let's flip this on its head a little bit. Is there a guy going into contract negotiations where you'd say, okay,

maybe that team makes more sense to get a really high pick or good value in return rather than pay him? Is there somebody like a Zeke Elliott, a Melvin Gordon, Jalen Ramsey, where if you're the team, you start thinking about it? I think with Jalen Ramsey, I would pay him. You know, we've talked about the danger of paying singular defensive players, but I think that you've seen what Stefan Gilmore can do for the Patriots, that's still, to me, a very valuable part of building a championship team.

Because if coverage really is something that we're starting to value more and more compared to the pass rush, it's hard to predict individual cornerback production from season to season. It's not hard to predict really great corners being great. And he's one of those guys. The guy I keep coming back to is AJ Green. Because if you're the Bengals and you look at your three-year-outers, Look here. Tyler Boyd under contract. Tyler Boyd is under contract. He's a nice piece. They would have a hole there, obviously.

But what are the Bengals going to do this year? The Bengals season, I think, is pretty much over. To lose your left tackle. Okay. Go ahead. The left side of the offensive line is already gone. It's, I mean, they could be fine. I think that Dalton was quietly pretty good last year when his weapons were healthy. You know, I really like what they could be as a passing game. When it comes to Mixing, Tyler Boyd, A.J. Green, if Tyler Reiford can give them anything. You know, the way they looked against Atlanta when all those guys were playing, it was like, shit, man. I know Atlanta's defense sucked, but those guys could really sling it when everyone was around. But we've seen what Dalton needs as far as infrastructure.

He's such a perfect control group for quarterback experimentation. Because as soon as you start affecting the ancillary pieces of what that team is, he starts to struggle a little bit more. And going into a season when you lose Jonah Williams, even if you didn't think Clint Bowling was going to play, this still means you're moving Cordy Glenn back out to left tackle and getting worse at two positions. It's a huge problem. And I just think that if you're being honest with yourselves, if you're Bengals management, I feel like you should look at what you're going to be this year, what you're going to be over the next three years, the fact that AJ Green is 30. And I really think a team would give up like a first round pick for it. Who is it? I mean, I said the Saints before.

I don't, that's the team that is the most fun. But to me, he's the type of player. No, isn't the team that's most fun than New England Patriots? Oh, man. I like the Saints better just because I hate giving the Patriots all the players. Well, it doesn't matter because we're in the Super Bowl. So tough scene. I know, I know.

All right. What's your first question, buddy? Minnesota. Is there a Kubiak effect? And does the play action, the potential, overhaul of an offense there, get them to where they need to be. I want to talk about play action.

I want to talk about play action because I know I love you and I want you to talk about play action as well. I'm writing about this fairly soon. I went to Minnesota in June. I went to Minnesota and June to talk to Kirk Cousins and Kubiak and everybody about what they're doing. That's going to run later this offseason. I don't mind saying later

this training camp. I don't mind saying that. Oh, you were going to try to keep it a secret that you're going to write about play action? He said a lot of fascinating stuff. And I think that cousins or Kubiak? Cousins did. Cousins did. Stuff that it was surprising to me.

The stuff that Stefanski told me and the Kubiak did was not necessarily surprising. One thing that Stefanski said that I thought was pretty interesting is that he doesn't really come from a background offensively. He's somebody that has been with the Vikings forever and they've changed offensive schemes. And in the back of his mind, he's always thought, if I got the shot to do this, this Gary Kubiak scheme is what I would want to run. This, to me, is what the most effective version of football is. I think when you combine that, the fact that Kubiak is there and the fact that this is where

cousins succeeds, this is the perfect version of an offense to allow him to be the best version of himself. I'm confident that it is going to work, and I think that if it does work, that defense is still going to be pretty good. Like, their Super Bowl odds. I wrote about this today, just kind of a few teams I thought are kind of hiding in plain sight as contenders. And I just don't understand how the Vikings are 25 to 1.

I really think that they're going to be better than people think. I mean, this is a team that they had 20 takeaways last year. There was 18th, and they had the fourth best offense or defense in the league. I just feel like there are so many things pointing to them improving. And the offensive line health is a big part of that. But I think there will be an effect. I honestly do. Yeah.

I mean, I pick them, I think I picked them to get to the Super Bowl last year. I don't, last year it seems like 20 years ago, but I think that's what I did. And I still believe in their talent. I still feel like they have a good front office, good coaching staff, all that. I just think there were a couple of things needed to be improved upon. I still believe in Kirk Cousins as a quarterback. I don't think he's Aaron Rogers, but he's not Andy Dalton either. And I just, I think there are, you know, I think the quotes coming from there over the summer.

I'm sure you saw them, Robert, about, you know, Kirk Cousins basically saying he's looked at the numbers and there isn't a limit on how much you can run play action. I have more of those. I have more of those coming. He said the same thing to me. So, yeah, he told the Vikings website that. And congratulations on Kirk Cousins for just reading NFL Twitter for the past two years. It's great to have you, Kirk. And so I think that they're the NFC North.

And one of the reasons I wanted to bring up the Vikings is the NFC North is so fascinating to me. And I know it's fascinating to you because your favorite team is there. But I feel like the ceiling on all of those teams. And I think the Lions, I saw a projection the other day that said the Lions are going to be 3 and 13. That's nuts to me. But yeah, I just, I think there's a little more talent there than people think. I'm not saying they're going to go 10 and 6 here. I'm just saying that the, the, the ceilings for all of the NFC North teams are absolutely fascinating.

I think there's three teams there that can be true NFC contenders. And then I think the lions are okay. So, and by the way, with Green Bay, you lose Mike Daniels, all that stuff. The only reason I say their contender is it's what we've talked about, you know, what I used to talk about the Saints, which is when you have a great quarterback, you're always a tender. No one takes a couple of things to go right for you. So that leads into my next question. What I want to say about the Lions and the other three teams, I feel like what the Lions have done this offseason makes them an 8-and-8 team,

but I don't think it allows them to be more than like an 8-and-8 team. I think their floor has gotten much higher, but I also think their ceiling is defined, both by the moves they've made, and by the way they're approaching their team. I just think when you're the fourth best team in a division, there's a cap on how many games you can win because you play a bunch of good teams. Sure. I just mean kind of when I say eight and eight, I don't necessarily mean how many games you win in actuality. I mean like what you're kind of where you stand among the rest of the league. No matter what just happened. Did you just go post win on us? Are we post record? It's more about like you're an eight and eight team no matter where you would play. I understand that there's an

actual cap, but I just think so you're saying being an eight and eight team is a mindset, not a record. I think it's a ceiling. It's just I mean that more is a theoretical way than what it's a vibe. It's a vibe. So getting into that when you're, talking about Rogers and comparing that the same situation possibly to the Packers. One of my big questions is, which of these teams is going to thread the draft needle like the Saints have in recent years? Which of these teams is going to have that class that needs it desperately? I wrote about the Falcons this week and just about how now their window isn't necessarily

closing, but the degree of difficulty gets higher when you start paying everyone. So now having guys like Chris Lindstrom and McGarry hit. in year one, if that offensive line can be a strength now rather than a weakness. Which team is going to do that? Now that Green Bay has lost Mike Daniels, is Rashon Gary going to come in and be an impact player right away? The team that has the quarterback, who is going to have that class or that player, that fourth round running back that is great, you know, is that Justice Hill, stuff like that.

I'm really curious who's going to have a back group of rookies. I think so too. I feel like he's going to be, have a really, he's going to have a bigger impact on that team, then most people will leave. Because I think that it's wide open outside of Mark Ingram. And they're going to run the ball. I was just in Atlanta. Flowery branch, Georgia.

Well, about an hour north. Here's a myth. The Atlanta Falcons practice anywhere near Atlanta, Georgia. Yes, not correct. It's definitely the furthest one now, right? From the city center? Yeah. Or like the stadium?

I think it is. I'd have to think about it. I mean, the Rams are pretty far away. The Rams are in Westlake Village. Yeah, that's pretty far. I think as the crow flies, the falcons are the furthest. Yeah. Okay.

So I was just there and I was talking to Thomas Smith. We were talking about that rookie class. And, you know, I think that that's a great team to bring up because they are like the Saints, a team that went out and identified exactly what they needed to do to, you know, first of all, first and foremost, the number one thing the Falcons needed to address was health because you lose the backbone of your defense like that so quickly in the season. And things are going to get away from you. The offensive efficiency was awesome last year. Matt Ryan was awesome. They needed line help. It was good for three quarters of the year.

They needed line help and they needed health. That's it. And they went out and they got those guys. And so I think that that's a great, the Falcons are a great, great candidate for did they solve their problems with the draft? And I think that, again, they are the type of team. We have not done this exercise. I think we should do this exercise.

How many teams win the Super Bowl? The Atlanta Falcons are one of them. I would say there's probably 15 or 16 of those teams, but I would put the Atlanta Falcons in those 16. another team that I would throw out there with having this conversation is Houston. I wrote about them today. Hey, can the Houston, Texas wins your role? They're 40 to one, and that's nuts to me.

That's too high when Deshawn Watson is your quarterback. I don't think, we are not talking enough about Deshaun Watson now because of what happened with Patrick Mahomes. Deshaun Watson ranks third all time over your first two seasons for quarterbacks that have at least 20 starts, so Mahomes out of the conversation. In yards per attempt, adjusted yards, per attempt, yards per game, and touchdown percentage. He was Dan Marino, Ben Rathusberger, and Deshaun Watson.

He was excellent last year. He was just as good in every single way except throwing touchdown passes. And that was always going to come back to Earth. When you look at that team with Hopkins, if Fuller can stay healthy, Kiki Kootie was really good last year. If they can have two guys from that class, if Sharping and Howard can come in and start and help solidify that group, why can't the Texans win 12 games?

Yeah, I mean, they made the playoffs last year. Their defense has some moving pieces. You know, they lost Tyrone Matthew. You know, they lose Cream Jackson, but they brought in Bradley Robey. They brought in Tashon Gibson. You could argue both of those guys are somewhat of a downgrade, but is it that much of a difference to say that their defense is going to be actively bad?

They were a top 10 defense by every metric. Yeah, look. I mean, so you're saying that they're in your group of teams that can win the Super Bowl? Yes. As a team with, they just announced they're not hiring a GM ever won the Super Bowl? That is my concern, is that it's such a team that could use one or two quiet pieces, quiet moves, to solidify the margins of their roster, and they have no one in charge of handling the margins of their roster. I've gone back and forth on whether or not not having a GM is a big deal.

I think it is. Yeah, I think it is too. And I just think it's like what we talked about. You have to have a guy who's constantly thinking about the team just from a roster construction standpoint. And the 50-second guy. You need a guy that's constantly thinking about the 52nd guy. The one thing I've learned about football,

and Lord knows I don't know much about football, but the one thing I have learned is that you win on the little edges, right? And the Patriots understand this. You win. The Patriots are really good because they have Bill Belich. and Tom Brady. But they win Super Bowls because they have guys, and I'm not saying they won the Super Bowl because of these people specifically,

but because they get a Kyle Van Noye off the scrap heap. Rob Nicarich just joined ESPN the other day. They got him off the scrap heap. I covered Rob Nankovych when I was in college and he was on the Dolphins, and nobody cared about Rob Ninkovich. Bill Belichick turned Rob Nankovitch into a really, really good. Is Nekovic going to make the Patriots Hall of Fame? I don't know.

How many guys can they possibly put in it at this point? Who knows? I saw the Packers Hall of Fame recently, like a list of that. There's a lot of people in that damn way in that in that damn hall of fame. Anyway, that's your next one, bud. Oh, sorry, I'm just saying that you need. It's funny, I use the Patriots as an example, but obviously they have Nick Casario, who's constantly on the personnel side. As long as the Texans can have someone who is monitoring the roster,

who understands how to get these guys and find value for this year, I feel like they'll be able to maximize their season. But I just, I worry that that's not going to happen. I am with you. I'm concerned about it and I think it's a bummer because I think they're leaving one of Deshaun Watson's cheap ears

on the table and that sucks because he's been phenomenal for them. All right, what's your next one? My next one is how good the Cleveland Browns can be. Yep. It's definitely one of the bigger ones.

I'm going to training camp tomorrow as they open. Hope and talk to some folks there, as they usually do. And again, it gets to I'm sort of fascinated

in this sort of era of the CBA we're getting towards the end of it where how quickly a team can go from bad to great we know now we have enough evidence to know how quickly it takes about two years to go from good to great or a year and a half whatever

but from legitimately bad to legitimately awesome how quickly that can happen. And typically it's, it's revolved around a rookie quarterback or a young quarterback at least. You know, you look at a team with the Kansas City Chiefs who were legitimate contenders,

well, they were really good under Alex Smith. They just got, you know, a better quarterback and they went from good to great. The Rams are a better example. The Rams are a great example, but it took them two years. I mean, they lost their first playoff game in the golf era. They didn't, they weren't ready to win the Super Bowl their first year. So my

I guess my question is, is the last half of last year when Freddie Kitchens ran one most efficient offenses really over those couple weeks he ran one of the most efficient

offenses in NFL history so you start getting into is that enough of a springboard to get this team where it needs to be how does O'Dell fit into it the Todd Munkin thing we're hearing some interesting reviews of that so far Kishin said he's happy with him

but there's there's been reports that it's a little slow in the installation process so I think that there's so many moving pieces getting into Cleveland right now, that how they fit is one of the most fascinating things of the sport. I feel like with the springboard thing, the numbers typically do not bear that out. How you play in the second half of the season is not necessarily an indicator of how you will play the following season. That's correct. And that plays into a lot of the discussions that you and I have

had just about how the improvement and development of teams is never linear. You have to constantly be vigilant about staving off regression, about making sure that you're adding. pieces to not necessarily be the same team you were a year earlier. And that's why I feel like even if it's not a springboard from the results we saw from Kitchens and Baker, the pieces they added 100% can springboard them. Even if it wouldn't, if it wouldn't have happened just by virtue of those two guys, they added Odell Beckham. They did everything they needed to do to make sure that this was going to continue, that

trajectory was going to keep going up. And that's why I'm excited to see it. It's about more than just, man, weren't Baker and Freddie Kitchen's fun. It's really, we did everything we could. We turned over every rock and we want to make this the year. And I think that's why they're fun. That's why I'm interested in them. Yeah, I mean, it goes back, I've said this a million times.

It goes back to something someone in the league told me years ago, I don't even know, four years ago. I don't remember. But he said the number one requirement of winning the Super Bowl was wanting to win the Super Bowl. teams don't accidentally win the Super Bowl. They plan on it. And you can eliminate, this is what this person said to me, you can eliminate basically 12 teams right off the bat

because they're either rebuilding or their owner doesn't care about the spending to the cap or if their coaches, you know, just playing out the string and want some money, whatever. You can eliminate a lot of teams just off the bat like that. And then you start looking at teams that are trying to win the Super Bowl. And it looks to me that the Cleveland Browns are one of those.

They've got a lot of guys who are young, and cheap right now. Miles Garrett is, Lord knows how much he'll be paid in a couple of years, but he's cheap right now. The number does not exist yet. The number does not exist. We cannot comprehend it. He's going to spend it all on his dinosaur expeditions. He, you know, Baker Mayfield, obviously, you can go all in, bring in guys like Odell,

even Jarvis Landry, some of the veterans they traded for last year, Olivier Vernon. They have the makings of a roster that is a Super Bowl-type rock. roster. It's just whether or not all of those things to come together at once. You know, Miles Garrett now gets to be a creative defensive player after basically only getting to do two pass rush moves under Reg Williams. There's so many

things that we don't know yet about how the Browns are going to change that we're about to see in the next two months. They're the team I'm most looking forward to. And my next question is about the team that's probably number two. And that is what the hell are the Arizona Cardinals going to look like? I mean, what is this offense?

Hey, hey, whoa, whoa. The Arizona Cardinals are number two most exciting team for you? Just the team I'm most interested to see. Like, what are they? What is the offense? Because I just think that if it works, what could it mean? What could it mean for what teams want to do? The types of players they want, the type of schemes they want to run?

I think it could be an absolute disaster. I think it could go up in flames in a year easily. But if it doesn't, what could it rot? And that is why I'm just interested to see it. What is Kyler Murray? I have no idea if it's going to work, but I want to watch it. Kind of reminds me of a crappier version of the Chip Kelly year

where it's just like, I just want to see this in the NFL. The difference being that the Chip Kelly roster, he inherited it from not only Andy Reid, but he's still at Howie in the building, and it was just a better roster. Oh, I totally agree. There was more expectations.

They had the Sean McCoy and Sean Jackson. Like, that was okay. Yeah, it was pretty good. It was pretty good. But like David Johnson can play. I like Christian Kirk. I think that their offensive line cannot be worse than it was last year. I just feel like there are enough pieces there.

They still got Larry Fitz. And Larry Fitz is how much does Larry Fitz have left? I don't think they'll be great, but I think that they'll be fun to watch at the very least. And if their offense can put up a ton of yards and a decent amount of points, I just don't know what it's going to mean about how people look at really adopting the error rate full scale. And is that going to be something we see even more of if it works?

Yeah. I mean, to be honest with you, haven't given a lot of thought to the Cardinals this this year. I just, I feel like they're going to be a nice, fun, exactly what you're saying, team to watch. I just don't see them doing a lot of contention. I would actually say, if you're looking for an NFC West team that I'm excited to see, I'd actually trend more towards the San Francisco 49ers.

That was going to be the next team I was going to ask you about. Is this the Niners post hype here? I just talked to Jim McGroplo a couple, about a week, two weeks ago. We had a great conversation, talked about a lot of things. And, you know, there were a lot of things that, you know, when we're in conversation, we were just, you know, you don't think about someone like George Kittle, um, enough. And I think the George Kittle is, is the type of dynamic sort of post-gronk tight end that is going to carry the mantle. And you mix that with the Kyle Shanahan

offense that made Nick Mullins, just a, uh, legitimate NFL starter. And you've got offensive fireworks. Um, Tower Don had a good story about just the expectations and the mindset there, uh, today on Bleacher Report. I just think that there's, I think that the, that is one of those teams where I wouldn't be surprised if they won 14 games and I wouldn't be surprised if they won seven games. Yeah. I think 14 is a lot just because I think the defense is still. I understand. I'm just saying there's a chance that just everything clicks on offense and they're just rolling. I feel like that is possible. I still have concerns about Jimmy Garoppolo in that offense, but I think that they, you know, you know how much faith I have in Kyle Shanahan.

you know, I think that they have a decent group of pass catchers. I like Dante Pettis. I think Devon Tom and Coleman's a good player. Their offensive line is not, it doesn't have any holes. I mean, it's just a good group. So I think that the pieces are there. They only had two interceptions last year. Like, their defense is going to get better just by virtue of luck.

One bet that I was looking at, I was looking at kind of the player props earlier this month and then again this week. Jimmy Garoppel is 50 to 1 to lead the league in passing yards, which seems too high. Kyler Murray is also 50 to 1, which I always. also think is too high. Like both of their defenses, I don't think are going to be very good. Like,

why could Jimmy Garoppolo throw for 4,900 yards or 5,200 yards? Why is that not possible? Yeah, I mean, it's a great point. I just, who, Rathsberger led it last year? Yeah, Rathesberger led it last year. He had like 50, 100. Hmm. That's a high number, dude.

It's a high number, but when your offense is really good and your defense is not going to be very good, that number comes into play. And I think both of their teams are going to be in that. your second ever NFL bet? No, I'm not going to bet it. I just think it's interesting. I'm not going to put, no, I'm not putting any money on these.

We should do a yearly maze bet. We should do a, what just you bet once, exactly once a year on football. It would have to be like a futures bet though that doesn't. No, that's what I'm saying. Yeah.

Yeah, that's fine because I don't want to be like rooting for these things. I feel weird about that. That's ethically not. It's a sketchy area. I had a, I did a pool for the British Open. And we were talking about how once,

you know, we don't bet on football because ethically just weird to just, you know, kind of, if we did bet the Jimmy Grapple thing and then didn't come through, we, next time I talked to Jimmy would be like, what the hell was that, Jimmy? So it's just better just to not be there. But I did a pool for the British Open. And one particularly muscled broie golfer on Sunday faded and cost me a lot of money. And if you're looking for why I don't bet on football, it's that.

All right. What's your next one? how good the Philadelphia Eagles can be. Having not only kind of stacked their roster, I was fascinated to see, I don't know if you saw us, when Joe Douglas left, he told Albert Breer that one of the reasons

he maybe wanted to stay in Philadelphia instead of going to the Jets was how stacked that roster is going to be and how good it's going to be even in relation to two years ago. And you start thinking about that, plus Wence's health, and I'm getting some deep playoff run vibes from the Philadelphia Eagles. I think that a Wence who's paid, I think that just the structure of that contract is fascinating

to me, but more than anything, I want to see healthy 16 game Carson Wins. We actually, we're doing a Brian Westbrook interview at the end of this. We talked a lot about that, but I want to see a healthy Carson Wence being the general for a really stacked roster. I'm really intrigued with that in the NFC East Race. I'll do my power rankings at the end of the month before the season starts about a month from now. But if I was picking an NFC Super Bowl team right now and possibly a Super Bowl team right now, I am not sure how you wouldn't pick them.

I think I'm going Colts Eagles. I don't mind that at all. That's kind of a ringer NFL show core pick. Yeah, that's true. I would say that's true. I mean, I like the Colts. I haven't thought as much about the AFC, but just looking at this Eagles team, I feel the same way. I just have a ton of faith in the personnel that they've assembled.

You know, the secondary may have its questions at certain places, but I just think if that group is healthier, that they'll be fine. Ronald Darby is already kind of, that's a question. But I feel like that team overall is going to be much healthier than it was a year ago. I think they're the second most injured team in the NFL. They still almost went to the NFC championship game. You get once back, everything they've done on offense, to go get to Sean Jackson and have that be your,

speed element is just unfair. It's nonsense. I just don't understand how this team added to Sean Jackson and Malik Jackson won off season to the team they had and Zach Brown. Like, who allowed this to happen? My team plays in the NFC and I am not thrilled about this. Yeah, it's going to be, I think they're going to be really good, dude. I think they're going to be really, really, really good.

And I'm the same way. I just, that NFC East race, because the Cowboys, stand out to me because they're a team that is going, this is probably going to be the last ride with all of those guys. You know, I know that maybe Byron Jones has talked about enough nationally and she should be. He's a really good cornerback.

And I saw a report today that maybe contract negotiations aren't going so well there. You can only pay so many dudes. I mean, at a certain point, the money runs out. And there's just a lot of, and I see this a lot with these teams that have four, five, six guys to pay. there's just a lot of a lot more optimism about paying everybody than there should be.

I kind of feel like everybody always downplays like, we're going to get these done. I'm kind of doing a Jerry Jones pressure, but not really. But like we're going to get these done. It's going to be fine. So and so is next. All this stuff. And it seems like it's, you know, guaranteed. I think they're going to have to let some guys go.

And I think there's a little too much optimism from Cowboys fans on that. So I think that you look at that stacked Eagles roster and then kind of a peaking. Cowboys roster. I think that's going to be awesome, dude. Yeah, I'm going to love watching those teams play. The Cowboys, my other team with 20 to 1 or higher Super Bowl odds that I feel like is definitely somebody that can make a run. You know, they need some, a couple breaks here and there. They need the defense to maintain, even though they didn't really add any pieces. You know, what's his name? Robert Quinn doesn't count to me. You know, he's not that much of an improvement over Randy Gregory in my mind. But I still think that with the changes in the offensive staff, everything else, they can kind of stave that off. last one is. By the way, by the way, Jalen Smith is just getting better every year. Yes. And that's,

that's the amazing part of it when we say they haven't added a new piece or whatever, they're getting Jalen Smith better every single year. So you could almost count on that as the new piece. It's just Jalen Smith times two. He was so good last year, though. I'm not saying that that's something that I don't know how much better he can be. Maybe it's a little bit, but that's not as much of a tangible changes I need. He's awesome. But how much better can he be? He's one of the best six off-ball linebackers in the league. Unless he's Bobby Wagner this year, that's not that much of a difference compared to what their defense looked like last season.

Here he comes. All right, my last one very quickly. I don't want to project here. I was going to say I feel like people are blank, but I'm just going to say I'm doing it. I think I'm sleeping on Patrick Mahomes and the Chiefs a little bit. Like, it's one of those things where so much, so many times we've seen just the touchdown regression thing happen

And it just kind of burned into our minds that when you have this historical season, you're likely not going to follow it up with anything overwhelming. Maybe the chiefs are just that good. Maybe their offense is so dynamic that they're still going to be just far and away the best offense in the league. And that's going to carry them to the postseason and maybe heights it didn't even last year. I think that's possible. It's not mathematically likely. And so maybe the overall enthusiasm on it is a little bit dampened.

but I definitely feel like I'm not thinking about them, talking about them as much as I should be right now. Okay, so here's the way I view the chiefs. And I've been thinking about this a lot. I saw, I think James Palmer's in Kansas City. I was watching the NFL network last night. And they were talking about all those changes. And that's something I've thought about all seasons.

So they go to a 4-3 now. They bring in Steve Spagnol instead of Bob Sutton. They bring in Frank Clark. They bring in Honey Badger, the whole deal. They do not get Earl Thomas. but their defense is almost reminds me of how we view the entire Browns organization, which is there's so many moving parts and the way, the way that they get those to click is so important,

but at this point almost unknowable. Does that make sense? I'm 100% with you. I feel the same way. And you look at those on paper, you look at those and you'd think that they're going to be good, but you don't know. Right.

I feel more comfortable saying like the Colts are going to be good because I know what the Colts look like because they didn't do much. They're just getting better on what they were last year. and the chiefs are changing their defensive system. There's just so much going on there that, of course, they're going to be really good. I mean, I think it's going to be like last year where it's the Chargers and the Chiefs for the division.

But as, you know, I'm not ready to say they're going to win 15 games. No, I'm not either. And because it's all projection on that defensive side. You don't know. You want to say that all this stuff is going to work. You know, Honey Badger is going to bring whatever this is such a leader in the mentality. just the effect of him being in the locker room, all that stuff. I buy into that stuff.

I think he will do that. But there are so many moving parts, and when there are so many moving parts, it's really hard to predict how they're all going to fit together. I'm with you. Agree. All right, bud. I think that's all we got.

Wait, we didn't talk about the 2015 quarterbacks slash Taylor Luan. Oh, okay, very quickly here. So not even just the 2015 quarterbacks, but Teru Luan suspended for the first four games of the season. I'm curious what's going to be. to happen to these guys that may be lame ducks. And that could be Marcus Marriota.

That can be James Winston. That you don't. Dalton or Derek Carr. If you're Marcus Marriota and you keep getting hurt, one thing you don't want is Taylor Luan gone for four games. That's right. And you don't want to be getting hurt while there's a competent backup behind you now. And your team doesn't need to throw you in there.

Ryan Tanhill is an NFL quarterback. That is more than you can say for what's been behind him recently. Matt Castle was behind him a couple years ago. Matt Castle playing Gabbert. I like, I would rather have Ryan. Tannenhill, even taking into account all of Ryan Tannenhill's ills. Zach Metenberger?

Yeah. I guess, still feeling better about Ryan Tannahill. Did you see Luan's how he announced the whole deal? I've not seen it. I just read a headline about it. So I will go watch it. I heard, yes. Well, yeah, he made a video and then he released the polygraph results.

Kind of innovating the announcement. I'll say that. Good Lord. We've reached an interesting time in the world. All right, buddy. I think that's all we got. I hope you enjoy your staying Cleveland. I am definitely going to be excited to get on the road

and get to be talking to people again. Brian Westbrook is next. Kevin talked to Brian Westbrook about a ton of things, how the current league is working, just the overall state of the position. And please enjoy Kevin and Brian Westbrook. Join now by a guy who really foreshadowed how the modern running back plays in the NFL,

a former all pro Eagles legend, an Eagles Hall of Famer, Brian Westbrook. Brian, what's going on? Hey, nothing much. Getting ready and dialed in for this football scene. Excited that training camps are finally starting. You're here on behalf of Fandul. We'll get to that in a minute.

I want to first start with the Eagles because I feel like when you look at the NFC East, there's a lot of intrigue there. The Eagles have a pretty stacked roster, adding guys like Malik Jackson, Carson Wentz returns to health. You have Dallas in that division. you have a lot of stacked NFC teams who are essentially all in. Where do you see the Eagles, Brian, on the pecking order of NFC contenders?

Well, I mean, I think when you bring back a guy like Carson-Wilty MVP candidate, you add to Sean Jackson to a receiving core that includes Zach Ergs and Alshan Jeffrey. In your offensive line, who is a veteran has some players that have done well. in the NFL for a very long time. Then you throw some youth in there with Miles Sanders, young, running back drafted out of Penn State this year. And, of course, Jordan Howard coming over from Chicago, then you throw in an old head that I love, Darren Sproul.

It's just a great opportunity that they have a youth, as well as older guys, veteran leadership, on the offense that has been explosive in the past and that if Carson wins is healthy, certainly is one of the better offenses in the league. And maybe look on the defensive side of the ball. you add Malik Jackson to a front board that's already pretty good with Fletcher Cox leading the way there. And you look at Derek Barnett coming off the injury, but even when he went healthy last season, he played very well.

And then you look at Zach Brown at the middle lineback spot in Dr. Jenkins and Robin McLeod in the back end. To me, that is a roster with a bunch of potential, a roster that has the ability to play well against any team in the NFL. But just like all 32 teams, it's all about potential. at this point. Everybody looks good. Everybody, every team thinks they have a really good roster on paper at this point. And the truth really isn't ever known until September, until the game start, until teams come together and play full games,

not just the preseason games. And, you know, from that standpoint, the Eagles have a very good team, but that's just on paper at this point. You know, being around Philadelphia a lot and seeing that team, when Wentz is healthy, where do you sort of rank him? among NFL quarterbacks. Because there's a lot of intrigue about that. Obviously, he gets paid this year.

Really interesting contract. But again, we haven't seen him fully healthy for a number of years. When he is healthy right now, where do you rank him among the top quarterbacks? Well, he's a top and quarterback when healthy. I think that, unfortunately, due to his injuries, we haven't seen enough of Carson Went. We've seen the things he was able to do a couple years ago, win healthy. Right before the Super Bowl push.

And he was an MVP candidate, a guy that was running the police. ball, well, throwing the ball of accuracy, taking some calculated risk and making big growth. He has that ability. I don't think that changes. I think that now that he has a complete offseason of not just rehabbing, but making his game better, cultivating his game and enhancing his game, I think that makes for a better quarterback. And if he can stay healthy and upright all season long, we're talking about the top, you know,

top 10 at beginning of the season. We're talking about the top five quarterback by the end of the year. I just think that he has that type of talent, that type of mindset and ability. Now it's about staying healthy for him or the Philadelphia Eagle. Brian, when you were starring for the Eagles, I think that the thing that always jumped out to people was your receiving skills. And I think that was a rare thing back then. And now you look at 2019, 2018, and pretty much any star running back has to be able to

catch the ball. It's the focal point of the offense. When you look at the running back position now, what's the biggest thing that's change? What jumps out to you about this crop now around the NFL as opposed to when you were playing where that was sort of a rare skill? Well, I think now more than never you have running back by committee.

Three different guys that are going to get the touches. I mean, you don't have very many teams that are going to run offenses similar to Dallas with Ezekieler where you know he's going to get 25 touches every single game. Even teams like the Giants who have a stud running back in

Sequan Barkley, they're not giving him 25 carries a game, but he's catching the ball out of the backfield and things like that as well. And, you know, that has a lot to do with offenses and have a lot to do with defenses as well. Defenses now, they're much more multiple. They're much more nickel-oriented. And so when teams are doing that, offensively now, you're putting out packages, three rides, two tight ends, whatever it is, but really only one running back. And so it's important for your running back to have the ability to catch the ball out of the backfield and be able to run just to keep the defenses off balance.

Is there a current running back who impresses you most with his receiving skills just having, you know, obviously an expertise in that area? I mean, I think the best running back that is receiving out of the backfield is out of the camera in the game. I mean, what he's able to do as far as catching the ball, I mean, he's able to run routes just like a wide receiver. He's able to do things with the ball in his hands after the catch. And then you put him in the back field and running game. He gets to the edge better than anyone else. he has a great, quick first step, and he makes guys look foolish out there.

And to me, when you watch that, that's what you need. That's what you want in the running back. And so he's kind of the ideal guy, especially when you're catching the ball out of the backfield. But I also put Christian McCaffrey right there. I know that he's got a little bit bigger and stronger this offseason.

I just hope that he didn't lose any elusiveness. But, I mean, he still has that same type of ability to get you, you know, seven, eight catches per game. and rack up those numbers, 90 plus catches on the season. That's been very impressive. Yeah. Obviously, your era of Eagles football is a little bit different than this because you had Andy Reid. Andy Reid is now obviously in charge of the most high-octane offense in football. Are you one of the folks who are just totally unsurprised by the fact that Andy Reid can keep innovating

and keep dominating offensively in 2019? And what has it been like to see that, you know, basically a decade after you started playing for him. Well, I'm not surprised. I mean, I think Andy has an innovative offensive mind. And when you combine an innovative offensive mind with the quarterback that has armed, it's just hard to keep up with. And we've seen that over the course of the last couple of years. And especially last year, we have Pac-Mahomes just throwing a ball all over the place and getting out everyone involved. Then you add in Travis Kelsey, one of the best tightens in the game, if not the best. And some exciting players like Tarik Hill.

It's a great combination for Andy. I'm super happy for him and proud of what he's able to do. But a big part of that comes with the player that you have, and you add that to the coach with the mindset of trying to make things happen offensively. You hear all the time that Andy's a different guy in private than he is in public, and he's a different guy in the locker room than he is maybe at a press conference. What's your favorite Andy Reid story from all your years playing with him? You know, I love Andy.

I love him as a coach. I love him as a man. Probably a funniest story is when this is something that I think they play. on TV a couple times when he was in a punt pass in kids competition. I'm probably 12 or 13 years old and he was probably 6'4 at the time

and everybody else was like, he looked like a coach in a uniform and everybody else like little kids out there, but that's how big he was at the time. So it's always funny to see that and always make fun like, listen coach, if you're 20, you're supposed to beat these kids that are 10, 11 years old

you're supposed to do that. But that's probably the funniest thing and I've seen for Andy. Yeah, that's hilarious. You know, Brian, the last thing I want to touch on is the running back position in general has been devalued. Not in the, you know, obviously everyone knows Sequin Barclay and Alvin Kamar and these guys are really good players, but they're not getting paid like they used to.

Melvin Gordon, it was announced this morning is holding out of training camp. Zeke Elliott can't get a deal done as of yet. How, if you were running a team, even though you are a former running back, if you were running a team, how would you approach giving these sort of running back second contracts and paying them kind of what they were paid maybe a generation or two ago. Yeah, I mean, obviously, I think the numbers should continue to increase, but I, you know, I think teams have been very strategic and saying, if we're going to use a running back by committee,

then, you know, we can't pay one guy of, you know, 10, 12, 13 million bucks a year, so we can't pay him a boatload of money. I mean, there's only a few running backs in the game now that probably deserve it. And I think Belvin, Gordon, is probably one of those. guys, his ability to be a force in the run game, as well as be a force in the past game, has been one of the best part of his games. And you look at guys like Zeeke, and that offense is basically built around him. It's crazy to me that they wouldn't have signed him up already.

But I think teams are always looking at how much tread they have with up on the tire. And, you know, when a guy has, you know, 400 carries every year for the last five years, the teams are wondering, you know, we love what he's able to do, but we also wonder how much he has left in the tank. And that's a tough process to be in if you're a running back because you're saying, listen, I'm giving everything to my team. But now I want to be rewarded for it. There's a bunch of questions. And that's a bad situation of being in if you're a running back. All right, Brian, you're here on behalf of Fandul. Tell us what you're doing with them and tell us what they're doing in Pennsylvania. Well, Fandul has done a great job, and they've partner with me,

and making sure that they have the best, the easiest and most convenient sport on the market at this point. And so because they're bringing sports betting, especially mobile sports betting, to Pennsylvania, this is an exciting time, especially here right here in Philadelphia. So many people in Philly in particular, but in Pennsylvania were crossing over the bridge into New Jersey to their mobile betting. And to that fact that they've spent $3 billion in New Jersey. Jersey betting on games and things like that.

And so now Pennsylvania has launched their mobile betting. And Fandu in particular has brought their app, which is convenient, easy to manage, easy to kind of navigate through the app. And now we have the ability to add the game, wager at home, wager at work, or wherever you're at, as long as you have your cell phone. And that's just a great opportunity for our fans, but for our game and also for Fandu. Good news for football fans in Pennsylvania. We'll get you out on this.

What's your Super Bowl pick this year, Brian? I think it's way too early to even consider. Oh, okay. If I had it my way, I would go Kansas City in the Eagles. But I think there are so many things that, that's right. There are so many things that could happen throughout a season. I mean, with injuries and teams playing well and home good advantage and things like that, you know, it's just hard to tell at this point.

but if I had it my way, I'm a city and versus the Eagles, and of course I would have the Eagles winning. Perfect. Brian, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Take care. All right, guys, as always, thank you so much for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer podcast network.

Brian Westbrook and Kevin, we're great. We will be back next week with a week's worth of training camp anecdotes for you. The stuff we're seeing, the stuff we're hearing, and I couldn't be more excited about it. So thank you for listening again, and we'll talk to you soon.