The Ringer NFL Show - The Brady-Patriots Relationship, Tua’s Draft Value, and the NFL Offseason Domino Effect | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: March 6, 2020

Boston Globe’s Nora Princiotti calls in to give the inside scoop on the current state of the Tom Brady–Patriots relationship (0:55). Then Yahoo Sports senior NFL writer Terez Paylor joins the show to discuss how Brady's landing spot will affect the rest of the league. Plus, the most underrated players to look out for in free agency this offseason, how Tua's health shapes the future of the top five teams in the draft, and the future of the Chiefs (20:50).  Host: Kevin Clark Guest: Nora Princiotti and Terez Paylor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, this is Kelly, and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. Recently, on the Winging It Podcast, Vince Carter and Annie Finberg sat down with NBA All-Star Kyle Lowry and recording artist for Timmy. This week, 2017 first overall pick Markell Fultz joins the show to talk about living up to expectations and working his way back from injury in the NBA. Make sure to check out Winging It on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It's the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Kevin Clark.

joining me on a special offseason edition. Nora Prince of I from Boston Globe, we talk to Patriots and Tom Brady and Therese Pailor from Yahoo Sports Senior Writer, hosted the Yahoo NFL podcast. It's going to be a really good episode. We talk about Brady with both guests. We talk about the entire league with Terez.

It's really cool. So let's get to Nora. Nora Princeati, Patriots beat writer for the Boston Globe. Last week, she called me a wife guy. It's true. You are a wife guy, Kevin Clark. I don't know about that. What is a wife guy? Well, so can I tell the story of why I think that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I actually, I think this is really endearing, which is sort of annoying that I'm going to tell a really nice story about Kevin on his own podcast.

But at the owner's meetings, so not last year, but the year before, Kevin is there with his lovely wife. And I see Kevin and he says, man, I brought my wife to the owner's meetings with the year. and I'm just not getting anything done because I really like her and I just want to hang out with her all the time. And I think, oh, that's nice. That's a nice thing to say about your wife. The next year, Kevin Clark shows up at the owner's meeting with his wife. And I just thought that was adorable.

Like, you couldn't bring yourself to do it. I realized something. The reason I wasn't getting anything done at the owner's meeting was because there's nothing to get done at the owner's meetings. Correct. It wasn't that my wife was there. And it was, I was just, you just sit in the lobby and, and you meet the owner, you talk to the owners and then they leave. And then you just have like an hour of dead time between the next owner coming in with like wearing alligator shoes. Correct. So it's that. So I realize like, I can bring her again. Who cares? I will not be bringing. It's in Florida this year. If it even happens because of coronavirus, it's in Florida. It's not on the West Coast. And so it's not a short jaunt for my wife. So that's not. So that's not. what we were here to talk about. By the way, I'm a distant third in wife guy power rankings

at the ringer because we have Shay and Jason Gallagher to two extremely prolific wife guys. I'm at least third. But let's talk about Tom Brady, the Patriots quarterback. Nora covers him for the Boston Globe and we don't know how much longer she will be covering Tom Brady because Tom Brady might leave. Nora, is Tom Brady going to leave? No. I still think it's more likely that he will stay than he will go. Tom Brady also kind of a wife guy. We've learned that, although Giselle has spoken in the past of Tom potentially retiring, and Tom has not listened as of yet.

Well, so Tom is the very complicated combination of wife guy and football guy. Right. And, yeah, that little dual ecosystem. That's hard. That's hard to reckon. occasionally. Right. Yeah, it is a hard one to reckon.

But anyway, I am still of the opinion that even though, you know, the Patriots and Brady are in this sort of daring contest or whatever you want to call it, where they're just hanging out. It's not like they don't have any contact with each other, but there's just not a lot of movement. I still think that it's more likely that he will come back, then he will go somewhere else. Okay. So then if that's the case, and I actually agree with you.

But if that's the case, can we explain away all of the reports like, when they spoke on the phone, it wasn't good? And then it's like, oh, they actually, and then two weeks ago, it was, well, they actually haven't even talked. It's not looking good. All this stuff. Is this just pessimism from the Brady side? Is it just, you know, Bill Simmons? I did a podcast with him this week. And he theorized that basically he was just trying to get a little love.

in the pre-free agency period, Brady was. What is that if he's going to stay, and why did things seem so pessimistic now? So this is actually an unbelievably fascinating test case because one thing that we know about the Patriots and about Bill Belichick is that it is important to him to treat all players the same. Yeah.

And now that is being tested against the player, in question being Tom Brady. And so far Bill is holding true to form. For what it's worth, my understanding is that they have had contact. You know, you work with somebody for two decades.

It's not all that surprising that there are open lines of communication. I don't know of anything particularly substantial, but I don't think it's along the lines of the two sides just have severed communication and refused to interact with each other. But from the team's perspective, which is basically Bill's perspective, they, one, don't have all the information that they feel like they need because of the unresolved CBA situation.

And until they feel like they know what their best position should be, they just don't really want to move is what it seems like. And then you have Brady who feels like, okay, well, that's all fine and good. But I'm Tom Brady, and I've done a thing or two for you.

And wouldn't it be nice if you could just, you know, not roll out the red carpet, but maybe pump me up a little bit and give me an assurance here or there that you really do want me back and would be willing to, you know, try to work with me to create a situation in which that would be workable.

And somebody will have to blink a little bit. I, you know, the reason that I still think he's more likely to come back than not is that I do think that ultimately, this is kind of like a rational actor theory argument, right? Like, I do think that these are rational actors who will eventually realize that they are the best people for each other in this situation. And so somebody, and I don't know who it's going to be, although if I had to put my money on it, I would say that it would be Brady, will, you know, take a few steps toward where the team, you know, wherever the sort of the agreement point could be here.

But right now, nobody's moving. So that's my understanding of where we are. A couple years ago, I wrote a story when it was the Wall Street Journal. about the times that Bill Belichick said good job to a player. And for most of the players, that you can count it on one or two fingers. Like, I mean, literally, it was like, I remember Ninkovich and McCordy and some of these guys, the Matthew Slater, who's like, you know, Belichick's hero. It was like they'd once, like, when they did a nice punt coverage in Denver in, like, 2009.

like he does not he does not like to as you say roll out the red carpet for anybody he doesn't like to overly praise I mean we had this a couple years ago with the great Seth Wickersham story where you know Tom Brady was not happy

that he wasn't named Patriot of the week I mean like this is real they're all human I mean there's something kind of refreshing about someone making $235 million in their career as Tom Brady has winning as many Super Bowls as he has being one of the five most famous athletes in America and one probably

one of the 20 most famous athletes in the world. And he is just human like us and just wants a good job from his boss. He just wants like a way to go, way to go, buddy, from his boss, who won't give it to him. Yeah. It feels like he sort of wants, like, dad to come to his soccer game. Right. Like, just a little validation. Exactly.

A little recognition. The ringer has a significantly better corporate culture than the Patriots is what I'm getting from here. is that people praise us here, which is nice. All right. So let's get into what Tom Brady is right now. How good does Tom Brady need to be with the defense that we saw last year for them to win a Super Bowl? And what needs to happen for him?

I mean, like last year, things went off the rails pretty quickly, relatively speaking. I was there around Thanksgiving for the Cowboys game, and I was reporting this story. about how good their defense was and all this stuff. And by January 1st, I thought it was going to be like an AFC championship game type story. By January, I was worried they, by late December, I was worried they weren't going to win the division. Then they did, sort of by the skin of their teeth.

And then they lose their first game, just kind of get rocked, get beaten up kind of by the Titans. Let's assume that defense is generally as good as it was, even though defenses don't necessarily stay the same from year to year. But let's assume the defense is good next year. What needs to happen for Tom Brady and that offense to get to where they can

make the Super Bowl again? Well, I mean, he needs higher quality receivers, but he also, and when I say he, I'm talking about Brady, obviously, he also needs to believe in them a little bit more. There were sort of dueling issues for most of last season where, you know, the weapons, ZZ, Z, Z, Z, Z were not very good,

but then you also had a slightly dejected quarterback who was fairly open about his disinterest in throwing to any receiver under the age of maybe 28 was sort of the cutoff. So, you know, and that's not to go back to this impending negotiation or lack there of, but that's part of this too, right? And is what's the level of buy-in? And, you know, is he going to go to OTAs? What from a culture building standpoint is the quarterback going to offer? I mean, I am not in the camp that looked at Tom Brady last year and saw a quarterback who is declining significantly.

I mean, I think you see it, you know, maybe 5%, 8%, you see it. you see it in you see it in maybe a little bit less arm strength and some of the throws but for the most part you know he's still accurate he's still really the only thing that

the Patriots were elite at on offense towards the end of last year where they just didn't turn the ball over a lot but I do think that in a funny way they're built to be successful in that way so I do not necessarily feel that there need to be major, major changes, but maybe you add an Emanuel standard and, you know,

Muhammad Sunu is healthier and the offensive line is potentially going to be questionable because they're probably going to lose Joe Tuny, their left guard and quite possibly Ted Karas, their center, and their previous starting center, David Andrews, has a medical issue that may or may not be resolved. So that's a whole other can of worms. That might be a new problem. But I still think that with fairly limited tweaks in addition, it's a very competitive team next year. The problem is they're the oldest team in football.

and at a certain point, I do wonder if Bill Belichick is looking at this and going, maybe we have to rip the Band-Aid off at some point. Do you think Bill Belichick, if they had to rebuild, would be like, this is me, I'm going to rebuild this? Yes, yes. Is it because he's just a football dork and this is what he likes doing?

Yes. And I also don't think that in his mind, he would, I think he would see it as something that he could tackle and still win a lot of games and rebuild. And if he were proven wrong in that, he would already be in it and he's so competitive that he wouldn't let go. So let's play this out. Let's say that we're both wrong and Brady leaves and he wants to go to Tennessee or Vegas or whatever. What kind of quarterback or what quarterback specifically plays in New England? Is that does Bill try to go the I know him route with Jacoby Reset or something like that?

Or does he go with kind of a stopgap Andy Dalton type? What, if you had to predict, if the worst happens for the Patriots, what kind of quarterback Belichette goes after? I mean, if you want to name, my best guess would be Teddy Bridgewater. It's a lot of money. I don't know that there's, yeah, but I mean. I get it. He's good. He's good.

Lake Bortle? Yeah, I don't know. Jacoby Reset. I mean, Jacoby Reset's paying a big money with the Colts this year because they renegotiated

his contract after he became starter. I guess every quarterback is kind of expensive. That's kind of how it works. Especially when there's so many quarterbacks who are going to be on the market.

And by the way, Brissette wouldn't even necessarily be available unless River signs there. Well, and also, maybe this is a little reckless and this is why I don't run an NFL team.

But if you're going to go 4 and 12, just go 4 and 12 with Jared Siddem and figure out a little bit more about Jared Stubham. I guess, but the defense, I think the argument against that would be the defense is a Super Bowl caliber defense in a vacuum on paper, obviously as long as they stay healthy and all that stuff. But I think you might say, hey, what if we had an Andy Dalton type and we're able to just

be competent on offense? He's not going to be Tom Brady, but he's not going to be Jared Stidham either and then try to try to win. I mean, I think that there's a problem. there's a kind of a philosophical problem, which is that there are so many good AFC teams that it's going to be really hard to be mediocre on one side of the ball and win the Super Bowl.

But having said that, the Patriots seem to McGiver their way out of every situation to the point that I will not ever, I will not ever discount their ability to do something that makes me look stupid. Well, no, and I'm with you there, but I think the question is, okay, Those options are varying degrees of expensive, but they're all expensive.

If you are looking for a cheap, a truly cheap option, I mean, okay, maybe you get lucky with Case Keenum or Blake Bortle. Or Blake Bortles. But there is a certain amount of. Of Blake Bortlesdom to Blake Bortals. I was going to say risk, but yeah, we can say Blake Bortles. like, Bortelstam. Um,

last thing. Is Jared Stenham good? The thing. They like him. But, I mean, how many times have you heard a reporter or a team person or just anyone talking about a quarterback who hasn't had to go out there and prove himself? And they really like him, you know?

Well, and I have it went Jim McGroplo and then he played in the Super Bowl. True. That was the one exception to the... Every time, this happens in college football all the time, is whenever there's a good, like a third. like a junior and he's played three years. The college will message boards, the fan base will always be like, wait to see this freshman.

Like, he's so much better than the junior. And then the freshman just sucks and the junior wins national championship. Happens all the time. Everyone just constantly talking about how their next quarterback is the best quarterback. I will say the one exception is that New England, no one ever says anybody's better than Tom Brady. That's true. That, I mean, well, actually, we got there with Jimmy in a couple of keys.

It's not going to name names. After the, after the, the three games, where he beat a, he played really well. He beat a Cardinals team that we actually thought was good at that point, to turn out to not be good. Yeah, they were not good. That was the first NFL game I ever covered. That was the first, I just started at the ringer then.

Craig, any memories of that game that you want to? Not a ton. Yeah, we're just going down memory lane. We're all set. And then, and then Jacoby Brissette beat the Texans. Right. And then hurt his thumb. Well, no, well, Groplo.

Oh, wait, they all did. Everybody got hurt. No, Gropolo got hurt, but then Brissette hurt is dumb. Right. Played the next game, and they got shut out by the bills. And then everybody tried to goad Rex Ryan into gloating. But he actually said the right thing, which was Tom Brady's suspended. and we played against a quarterback with one hand,

so I'll wait for the next win, which was very mature of him. If I'm not mistaken, the next win never came. That is true. I believe if I'm not mistaken, he just went ahead and gotten fired after that. That is my understanding as well. He is surprisingly good, from relative to where he started, he is actually quite good on ESPN, and no one notices. I'm not sure why.

I adore Rex, Ryan. Yeah, me too. We used to always fight with Rex Ryan as a Patriots media. I remember that. Like, we would do these conference calls with him and just get in fight. But I sort of, I miss him. I am extremely pro-Rex Ryan. I will say this.

A couple years ago, when he was the Jets coach and they were going to the championship game all the time, he took my, I asked him a question about his defense, and he took my notepad, and he drew out his defense. It was really cool. And he explained everything. Like, he gave me the calls and all this stuff, and it was so cool. And this is when Rex Ryan was like a time. top, maybe top five coach in the NFL because he'd gone to two straight A few championship games.

And I was like, this is going to be such a cool item for me. Like, I'm going to have this forever. And I noticed, as he has gotten less famous, I just lost the notebook. Like, I used to cherish him. Like, this is amazing. And now I just have no idea where it is. That's my, that's how I know Rex has fallen off. I lost it.

Yeah, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, pointing down, I guess. Yeah. But good broadcaster. Good broadcaster, sneaky good broadcaster. Nor Princiotti, anything else we need to know about the Patriots? They got a dog this year to help with the grounds maintenance. And so my rip cord is that if this Brady thing goes south, they just have to put the dog front and center.

So the Browns tried that. They had like a teen dog and then the dog passed away and then they live streamed. The dog passed away. I don't want to. Actually, I saw somebody. at the combine last week, I saw somebody go up to a Brown executive and offer condolences over the passing of Flagger,

which I thought was very kind. It's a classy league. It's a slightly unintentional comedy, but yes, very kind. It's a league full of classy people. Norr, Preciati. We'll get a Tom Brady update in two weeks, and we can all go.

We can stop talking about it for a while. Heck yeah. That was a joke. We're going to talk about it for the rest of the off season. Bye. Cool. Bye. joined now by Therese Paler, senior NFL writer at Yahoo

co-host of the Yahoo NFL podcast with Charles Robinson. Tres, what's going on? Hey, Kev, what's going on, man? Not much. It's supposed to be a dead time in the NFL, Teres. It's not. It's not. Tom Brady.

That doesn't happen anymore. The coronavirus is on the loose. We got, we're all on the edge of living in a Cormick-McCarthy apocalypse novel, and all anyone is talking about is Tom Brady's free agency. That's how you know it's a thing. Listen, you got to love football. I mean, people will just completely go into all football mode all the time. And that's great for our careers.

It is great for our careers, yes. That is the one thing it is great for. That is the one thing it is great for. It keeps us employed. All right, so we're going to preview the offseason for agency, the draft, maybe even a little CBA because the league year starts on March 18th, pending anything crazy with the CBA because obviously the vote is out. Next Friday is when the vote presumably will be announced because the window closes on Thursday

at 1159 next week. And so essentially what's going to happen is that if a team tags two players and which they can do with the first time this week, they would have to rescind one of those tags next Friday if the vote passes. So it is a confusing time. It's possible. There have been rumblings that maybe they push league year back. But as of now, we have no concrete information on that. So free agency, as of now, starts on the 18th. The draft is at the end of April. There is a lot, there are a lot of moving pieces in the NFL right now. We want to preview them. Terrez, let's start with free agency, because I think that the first domino, and you've got a guy you want to

talk about, but I think the first domino, obviously, is Tom Brady because there are a lot of teams that would take Tom Brady, and if that happens, that creates a domino effect that is probably of all the guys this year who would create a domino effect, it's Tom Brady. Because something as simple as if he wants to go to Tennessee, well, then all of a sudden Ryan Tannehill becomes a premium free agency. after the year he had last year. If he wants to go to Las Vegas, then Derek Carr becomes available,

then the Raiders become a complete different franchise. And if he stays in New England, then they remain an NFC contender with the historically good, with a historically good defense and obviously the continuity, and presumably they get you some help. Tress, if you were handicapping the Brady race right now, what do you see happening in two weeks? I think at this point, it's so hard to say,

mainly because these teams you mentioned, and, of course, there's been a little San Francisco buzz recently. You know, you look at this and you, yeah, you look at it and you really kind of dive in. It's not like just an easy fit for him, mainly because Josh McDaniels didn't go anywhere. I feel like this would get a lot easier if Josh McDaniels had gotten higher somewhere to be head coach. Then that way that team wouldn't be talking about having to completely change everything they do to fit Tom's offense, quite frankly. but let's start with Vegas, right? Because I think it would be fun seeing Tom Brady with John Gruden.

They open a new stadium and bring a lot of attention to the place. That's great. But you also have to remember this. The Raiders run John Gruden's offense. Like it's about John Gruden. It's about John's offense. So for him to get Tom Brady, he would have to really kind of custom fit that to what Tom wants to do.

Now maybe he's tired of getting his teeth kicked in by his good friend. friend Andy Reed, and he's okay with that. Maybe he will do it, but I'm just saying if he does, I don't feel like there's a long history of that because I don't. Tennessee is a place where, you know, they might lose Jack Conklin. Well, to me, that takes away one of the best advantages

of going there, or at least mitigates it, which is one just kick-ass offensive line. Because Big Jack is awesome, right? So then you've got A.J. Brown was a good player, Derek Henry, but there's still not a ton of great options around them there. And they have to pay Derek Henry, in some way.

And they have to pay Derek Henry. You know, San Francisco. They do a lot of bootlay. They do a lot of movement stuff. How's that going to fit with Tom who's pretty stationary at this point in his career? So I know what people are saying

about New England not being. I just, from a football perspective, it just, I still think the best place for Tom Brady is New England because they already know what he likes and he knows what they like. The only way it makes sense from a football standpoint is if Tom Brady

just never wants to play in New England again. If somehow he feels he's been wronged in some way and doesn't want to play there. That's why I think that I agree with you. If you look at all of these places, it just doesn't match up from a football perspective. Here's my question. If you're John Lynch right now and Brady wants to come, I don't even understand the side-and-trade scenario because Brady would be a free agent. You wouldn't have to give Garoppolo away to New England.

You could have an auction for him. But if you were John Lynch and you were Kyle Shanahan, would you take Brady, if you wanted to sign and deal Garoppolo. Well, if I was John Lynch, I would ask Kyle what he wants to do and be good with it. Because I'm just being honest, Kyle's offense throughout the course of the year was so fun to watch. That guy is a genius as it relates to awesome concepts. So I put him in an Andy Reid category where, what do you want, Kyle? Whatever you want to do?

Oh, you want Tom Brady? You can make it work? Great. We'll go do it. That's how you end up with the highest paid fullback in football, is Kyle Shannon. says he needs a fullback and John Lynch says absolutely. And then he makes it look awesome. Right. Right. Because Hugh's chick was awesome this year.

So, I mean, yeah, so I yield to what Kyle wants to do. But, you know, if you're asking me, you know, I was in New Orleans for the San Francisco Saints game, right? And that was a crazy atmosphere. That was a playoff atmosphere. He really showed up in that game.

He showed me something in that game. He also showed me something in the Super Bowl. Did he miss, like, the big throw down the field that would have, you know, kind of got the momentum back on their side? Sure. But I've seen him kind of deliver on the big stage a few times in person. And I'll also say this. You know what else I really like? I like the fact that teammates are kind of coming out and going to that.

George Kittle put your Instagram up yesterday, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Jeff Wilson outright calling it ludicrous. Like, I really like that. And if I'm Kyle Shanahan, I'm considering if this team might have an FU. edge to kind of book the Super Bowl Hang-O, Super Bowl lost hangover phenomenon, which we all know is a thing. Yeah, all right.

So let's go back to Jack Conklin for a second because you wanted to focus on him. He's obviously the Titans did not pick up his 50-year option, which in hindsight looks bad, but I think at the time, there was a case to be made for it. I'm of the opinion you just pick up, unless the guy is a massive bust, you just pick up all 50-year options. But I understand in the moment where they were coming from, but obviously it was a mistake to not pick up that 50-year option. Jack Conklin, where do you like him going, and what is his value?

So Jack Conklin doesn't turn 26th in August, and he's basically a kick-ass right tackle in a league where there's not a ton of tackles that are that great because they don't really drill it like that in college. He's really good as a run blocker as well. So, you know, I'm a little bit like Mays, man. Like, you give me some offensive line play at some run-blocking. We can dork out with the ballparker. that stuff.

So, yeah, I love Big Jack, right? Anytime me and Mayans get together, you know, we're ready to dork out about football, and we're going to dork out about line play. Just so everyone knows when that conversation starts, I'm with them until the line play starts and I leave. That's when I get my check. Once everyone starts talking about Mitchell Schwartz, I say, I got a thing. I'm sorry.

You're missing out. You're missing out, Kiv. Like, the right tackle analysis is really on point. But in a general sense, you've got this great right tackle who's on the market. And I think you rarely see that. He's in his prime. In fact, he hasn't even hit it yet. So to me, this is a really good opportunity for a lot of teams to need to improve their line play to get better really quickly.

And that means he's going to make a lot of money. But there's one place in particular that I really like them. And it's the New York Giants. I feel like I look at Jack Conker. I'm like, you know what? 6, 7, 3, 10, a nasty run blocker. and you saw him really punish people in the run game in the playoffs with the Titans,

this guy absolutely fits what Dave Gettelman wants to do. And if they can sign Jack Conklin and free agency, that allows them to, at number four, take Big Derek Brown, the defensive tackle from Auburn. I can't think of a more Dave Gettlement pick than that. And Brown's a guy I heard they like, by the way. I'm just seeing this as an opportunity for them to potentially get a lot better up front on both sides of the ball,

because we know that Gettleman really believes that big men allow you to compete. Do you think there's a path for the Giants to be decent in 2020? And do you think those two moves will get them there? Are they just so far away? And maybe, I don't know how you feel about Daniel Jones. I'll find out in this answer. But is there anything where you say, okay, the Giants, the Giants can get there and be a candidate to win nine games?

I don't know if I would say nine games, but I could see him get into seven or eight. they need some luck to get the nine. But look, in this league, you wouldn't rule out anything. I think if you get Conklin and Zitler, those guys can run block. They have Sequan Barclay's obviously a great back. And Daniel Jones showed people a lot. That's the makings of a pretty interesting offense, I think.

You know, Shepard is a pretty good player, too. So that's the making of an interesting office. Now, I think they got a little ways to go defensively. That's a side of the ball where they need more help on the edge rush. They need more impact players. But I will tell you this. I liked a lot of what I saw in Dexter Lawrence, Kiv. And if they did draft Derek Brown, it could be like the Williams Wall 2.0.

If that's a guy, sign me up for that. That's a lot of it. Sign me up. I'm in. I'm ready to go for Dexter Lawrence and Derek Brown next to each other. Because just like with the Williams Wall, you ain't getting nothing up the middle. Do you think there any other free agents when you think about this list this year

whether that's Byron Jones or I mean who the hell knows with Amari Cooper or any of these guys? I think there's any other guys you say, okay, if there are teams that might be a piece of way where this is the guy who's going to make a difference? I mean, could a Byron Jones to Philadelphia

kind of thing or something like that? Is there a move you can see where you say, hey, I'd love to see this guy go to this team. They could really take a jump up if that happens. I think Byron Jones would be a good fit in Detroit. because it sounds like the Darius Slay thing is going to be, like it sounds like they're going to have to move them. And we're going to talk about the Lions here in a little bit,

but if they end up with Akuta, I'm okay with them trade and slay if they get Okuda and they sign Joan. That's the kind of top-notch cornerback play they need to make Matt Patricia's game work. And if they can somehow continue to improve the edge rush, that defense actually does have a chance to be pretty good. In fact, the first month of the season, The Lions defense was pretty scrappy, and then they lost Stafford. I think it affected every area of the team.

So, look, I grew up in Detroit, so I know better than to be too optimistic about the Lions. But if they have to trade Darius Slay, I think they have to go get Byron Jones to potentially make Akuta on the Great Corner from Ohio State work in the top five. Okay, I want to talk about the draft real quick, because we both wanted to talk about the two and three spot here, because I think the number one thing is whether or not two is healthy. because if two is healthy, he becomes in play for number two. And then again, there's more dominoes because then Dwayne Haskins would become available. And then number three becomes incredibly intriguing.

Because like you said, they could get a cornerback that kind of unlocks that defense. I understand that. But then Chase Young would be available at three. And then what do you do there? Or does Detroit try to drop down and hold an auction? Or do they just take that elite guy? I mean, there's so many things there. what do you find intriguing about the lines at three?

Here's what I can tell you. If Chase Young is there at three, you run to the podium. I don't want to see that clock get to like 14 minutes. Just run. Because more than anything, the fastest way, aside from having a great quarterback, like one of the fastest ways to be like really competitive and become really good in this league is to have two great edge rushers. And they've got a really good power edge rusher and Trey Flowers.

But they really need that like rush edge that can do a little bit. of all in Matt Patricia's game. And Chase Young fits the bill. The best thing that could happen to the Lions is for Tua to continue to show that he's going to be healthy and that all the medical reports are coming back. The lion should start leaking that Tua looks great. The lion should just start leaking these medical reports.

Oh, wow, Tua looks amazing. Matt Patricia wearing a disguise, jumping on SportsCenter. And I'll tell you this, too. If things go that way, there will be some push for, hey, maybe the lion should take Tua. Right. I'm going to say no to that for the same reason. I would say no to that for Washington.

I don't, A, I love the player. Like, I love the player. But I don't feel like he's a player you can take unless you've got like a history of having a top-notch medical staff, a top-notch kind of organization, one that can, like, really handle this well. Because if you rush him back and your medical staff's not on point, then you're going to basically blow the pick. And I would hate to see that for his career. So for the same reason, I don't like him going to Washington, I think, you know, the line should pass. We can just let the listener know that Detroit and Washington are not top-notch organizations.

They do not fit the bill that you describe. Yeah. And a great organization needs to handle them. So you think even if two is healthy, the Washington should go to the Chase Young route? I do. And I think it would be hard for Ron Rivera to pass on a generation. I agree.

That was the first thing they said when he took the job. Yeah. I mean, he looks like Julius Peppers. And that is, I mean, like, that's exactly what we talk about when you talk about, you know, a guy you can his pencil in for a decade. Where the first thing when Ronda Vera took over, one of the first things that leaked was that he wanted to grab Chase Young and start building that defense. So I agree with you. Is there any kind of same question with Giants? Like, how far are the Redskins away?

Even if they take Chase Young, I mean, it's going to be a while, right? Here's a thing. I think that I actually believe what I hear about, like them handing the keys of Rivera. and it being Ron Rivera's deal, which is a good thing for Redskins fans. This is about as optimistic I've been for that organization in like a decade probably. They fired Bruce Allen, and people around the league were mocking them, you know, as long as he's there. So that was met with round applause. They fired the trainer.

We had the issue with Trent Williams. I feel like if they draft Chase Young, Jonathan Allen, Duran Payne, Matt Ionitis, Montez, Sweat. That's pretty damn good, man. And that's exactly the kind of young, dominant defensive line. I can see Ron Rivera really kind of wanting to go to war with him. And they did draft a quarterback in the first round last year that I personally, I would not be giving up on just yet. Because I think that he's a young player,

and I think he does have some real talent as a passenger. I want to make a point about Dwayne Haskins real quick, because so the word is that the old staff didn't like Dwayne Haskins. Okay? The old staff was not good. Like, everybody there was. was kind of bad. Okay?

And so now all of a sudden, it's a huge indictment of Dwayne Haskins that everybody in the building with the Redskins last year didn't want Dwayne Haskins to be drafted? Right. I'm sorry. Who cares? I'm sorry, that's a bad thing?

Sounds like a re-endorsement of Dwayne Haskins. Yeah. Now, I agree. I think Chase Young is, I don't know. The word generational gets used too much, but I think that he's the pick because he just don't know. Yeah. I mean, he just is.

And, you know, I'll say this, too. Like, you know, what happened with Haskins and the old staff is a, is proof positive of why, you know, quarterback's doing to bust him because you cannot select a quarterback without the buying of the offensive staff, period. You do it without their consent, and then his, his development gets slow because they don't really believe in them. Stuff starts leaking. And, like, it's a sign of a terribly run organization.

So just handing the keys of Rivera. and getting out of the way is one hell of a start to kind of turn things around there. Yep. And so then Detroit, we talked about it a little bit, but then they could get the cornerback help they so desperately need. And you think that's a nice path forward for them? I do. I do. Or Derek Brown.

I think Brown is a special player as well. So look, the lines are actually in a good spot. They just can't mess it up. Whether they get Chase Young, or they get Derek Brown, or they get Jeffrey Akuta, and they trade down and get any one of those, and get Brown. that's a pretty good haul. You know, they just got to coach these guys up and develop them and basically just not blow the pig.

Yeah, and that's interesting because I think I heard Daniel Jeremiah talk about this a couple weeks ago, but it's hard for them because they're in a spot where let's say two is on the board at three. Well, they get some offers, but the problem is you can't, there are three really good defenders in this draft and the lions have to come away with one of them. And so the problem is that let's say hypothetically, and I actually don't think the type of team that would do this, but let's,

from this year, rather, but let's say that the Panthers wanted to draft Tua, right? Well, they're picking at seven. Well, that's too far for the lions to drop down because then they would be without one of these guys.

I think that the, if the dolphins wanted to move up to three, I think that's a little more, that they're at five. That's a little more sensical than they could draft who's ever left or even have your pick because two it goes three, the Giants take somebody a four, and then you get five. But it's a dangerous game to trade down when you know what you need.

Absolutely. I think that's a great point. Unless the charges are interested in the pig and you really believe in Isaiah Simmons as a, you know, as a Brian Ur-Lackery kind of linebacker. Right. Like if you really believe in his ability to be that, you can drop to six. But it's expecting him or Akuta. a brown to beat her is seven. That's not a half.

So you wrote about Isaiah Simmons last week and just sort of the the way that that athleticism and basically Isaiah Simmons is the type of big guy you need to stop modern offenses. And that's something that we've talked about a lot on this podcast and a lot of coaches and GMs obviously have talked about it where offenses are becoming so dominant. They're becoming so athletic. I mean, good Lord. I mean, some of these receivers coming in just can be unbelievable. But Isaiah Simmons and a couple whether these guys are so flexible they can kind of keep up. Can you talk a little bit about just Simmons and kind of what he represents and how he

steps in immediately? Because we've seen some of these athletes who are great defenders who have immediate success because of that and because defensive coordinators are flexible and creative enough to get them where they need to be. Absolutely. Look, it's getting harder to play defense, right? But if you can play it, you got a real chance. And these linebackers that can run and hit, I mean, I talked to a lot of guys last week

who were just kind of raving about Murray, Queen, and Simmons. You know, Queen from LSU, Ken Murray, Jr., from Oklahoma. Like, these are the kind of guys you need to go to war with today. And I think the 49ers just proved it, Kevin. Like, look, the Chiefs still put up 31, but for like three quarters of that game, it looked like San Francisco is going to win. And that's a big reason for that was their speed and linebackers. All three of those guys could run.

Like, all of them couldn't run. So I think now more than ever, your linebackers got to be able to run. So I actually, I'm glad you brought that up because I'm a head. huge fan of Patrick Queen as a player. You know, if a team like Detroit did trade down and they put the right, and the medical's clean on Queen and they put, you know, a big

grade on them, I wouldn't be surprised to see him go, you know, pretty high because that position, the importance of it and not having to leave the field in passing situations, which is basically every situation now is so critical. So

it'll be interesting to see kind of what happens there, but there are some really good new wage defensive players in this draft, particularly at that position. Can you talk a bit about what that kind of athleticism, where that shows up on the field against modern offense and what they can kind of take away? Oh, yeah, absolutely. So key offenses, stress defenses, a lot of times

by putting them in sub-packages. So like three receivers, the base defense now in the NFL. Yeah, three receivers are the base offensive package in the NFL. bill. If you have linebackers that can like run and cover, you can like really match up with some of these pieces, specifically at Tide-in that teams are using to try to get numerical advantages of you. And they can't just be fast. They have to be good in coverage and they have to be able to stop the run. So guys like this allow you to have numbers advantages. Allow you to be able to stop the run while matching up in sub package. So that's where it really

shows up. Like, you got to be able to cover because if, I think as we all know, if you put an extra guy in the box in today's game, you know, good luck, because they're just going to throw the hell out of the ball. So you want to be able to match up with the right numbers against three wide, but if your linebackers are versible enough to cover and they're versatile enough to run and hit and stop the run, that gives you a chance to not only stop the path, but the run as well. And it takes away some of the offense's biggest chess pieces. I'll also say this. I think there's a great opportunity for linebackers like this to wind up as like wipeout tight-in guy. George Kittle, Travis Kelsey, there's going to be more of these guys coming.

And I saw a, I saw gleam in Isaiah Simmons' eye when he was talking about the possibility of becoming a wipe-out, tight-in guy. If you have a guy like Derwin James and Simmons because he thinks he can be that, that can do that, that's a huge chess piece for defenses in today's game. Yeah, and it's funny because you mentioned San Francisco, and they have Fred Warner, obviously, who is a really great athlete, and I had a couple, when he was coming out, I named him as one of my draft crushes. And a lot of people on this pot, and a lot of people came at me,

and not came out of me of that, and said, you know, how did you see this? What did you see on film? And I was like, dude, he just had really good athletic testing numbers. You have to guess at some point, if he's at the combine, he plays football well enough. But from my perspective, that wasn't a tape thing. That was he's athletic and he has good instincts. And then beyond that, if he goes to a smart team and the Niners are that,

they'll know how to use his athleticism. And that's why I think that a lot of these teams, whether it's the Ravens, the Packers, the Seahawks have famously done it, a lot of these teams draft athletes, especially in the mid-rounds, because they know that they're smart enough on defense to figure out what comes next. And so I think that that's Simmons obviously different deal because he is just an elite elite player and he's going to go in the top 10.

But I think especially when you get in those mid-rounds, you can just draft the athletes and trust your staff to be smart enough to put them in a position to succeed. You better be right too because sometimes it doesn't always work when they're great athletes. You better be right and you better be able to develop them.

Because if those guys don't end up being solid against the run, teams are just going to pound you to death in your sub-package. and you're going to be in trouble. Yep, no, I totally agree with that. All right, so you talked to Patrick Mahomes recently. Before we get into what kind of off-season, Patrick Mahomes, we'll be having from a team-building standpoint

because he is eligible for an extension, I'm going to guess you've seen him now a handful of times in the off-season way that's the parade or, you know, obviously in the Super Bowl. He's living a pretty good life right now, isn't he? He's absolutely living his best life. You know, Mahomes was really, to be honest, pissed off after losing the Tom Brady in the

AFC championship game last year. He really came back with a vengeance this year, even though his stats didn't fully show it. You know, the amount of sway he had with his teammates and the amount he was able to push him did increase. And I think it showed up because this team kept getting down in the playoffs and they never quit. So for him to finally reach the mountain top

and to do it in his third year, takes a lot of pressure off him going forward. You know, and I think that's a good thing when the players is determined as him because he's not about the start letting off. Like he really cares about being great. I know, I know he, you know, he wants multiple, multiple of these. And I think that this team is going to, it's really pretty dead set on defending the title. Like, obviously, I live in Kansas City.

I've been here for 14 years. Like, this team, like your boss, Bill Simmons, like, likes when teams defend the title. Like, I think the chiefs want to defend the title. I think they're all in on it. So it would be interesting to see. quarterback's going to be a big part of that because he's not letting up at like at all. Are you saying they can run without

Sammy Watkins for us? Well, I think they really want to try to, hey listen, I hear you. But like, and I think they're doing their work on their receivers just in case. But I do think they want to try to try to keep them. Really? I think they want to try to work something out. Yeah. And I'll tell you this, like listen, it's going to be tough, right? But

Watkins is a guy who you know, he does love Kansas City and they have, they're hoping they can do something. Now, you just look at the numbers. You used $14 million. Right. It's a lot of money that can be created.

Like, you just look at you, you're just like, okay, yeah, this can't happen. But they'd like to do something. They would. They'd like to find a way to keep it. If you can turn Sammy Watkins to a value deal with some sort of restructure, and then I can see it. I mean, it's not like he's wasted space here. But certainly.

Oh, yeah. He's a Super Bowl hero, care. And certainly, I think it's 13.7 next year. I mean, that's a little. especially when you're negotiating contracts. Speaking of, what are we, best guess on what the Mahomes deal looks like? When I talk to Mahomes, it's pretty clear, it seemed like it matters to him to like leave a legacy to win multiple Super Bowls. So whereas like a lot of quarterbacks, if they were in his position, like they could really kind of tighten the screws on a team.

I don't think they're going to do that. Now, who knows? But I just, he keeps talking, and his agent, Lee Steinberg, they keep talking about the importance of winning Super Bowls. And that means kind of helping the team when it comes to this deal. So it's hard to say like what it'll look like, but everything he's accomplished, he could really blow it out. You know, he could really push for some stuff we haven't seen before, you know, longer than Kirk Cousin's deal, fully guaranteed, tie a percentage of it to the cap. Who knows what it would look like? but it won't be as bad

in my opinion. This is just my opinion. Based on the way he's talking and the way it's just doesn't seem like it's going to be as bad as it could be if they were just hell bent on getting as much money as possible. So the market is set at about 35 or 36 right now.

Does he hit 40? Pretty close, I would imagine. I mean, at some point, you also have to remember that the agent has a reputation too. Right. So other agents, to use that against you if that number's not high enough.

I mean, I would imagine, the question to ask yourself is like, what does that contract have to look like to be respectable? So other people couldn't really use it against you. And I would imagine, like, being around 40 is like pretty important with a significant, significant chunk guarantee. Do you think, I agree with you, I think they could end up being 40 a year for four or four years and basically fully guaranteed? Without a doubt.

I mean, listen, if Patrick Mahomes tried to bet on himself, almost like what Dak has done and what Kirk Cousins did do, not that you would do it for any reason, because you have the best offensive coach in the game. You got, you know, there's a million reasons to stay. But if he wanted to stay, if you wanted to bet on himself and hit the Oak Market, how much money that guy would make?

Oh, my God. I mean, he could clear 50. Oh, easy. But he would have to wait three, four years, depending on what the franchise tag rules are on this next one. They basically control him through the fifth-year option plus three years of the franchise tag.

So, I mean, that's just the reality of the franchise tag. Having said that, 40's a nice number if he gets there. Kind of a follow-up question to that. When you think about someone like DAC, okay, who might be negotiating after Mahomes, is Mahomes such an outlier that no one even negotiates off of his deal? Or does someone like Dak actually then get to eclipse Mahomes? How do you think that that plays out from a value standpoint

Does everyone say we're negotiating off Mahomes' deal? Or do they say, you know what? We're not doing that because Mahomes won a Super Bowl. He's the best young player of this sport has ever seen, and we're going to negotiate off of Jared Goff's deal. Oh, listen, the Asians are absolutely going to push to negotiate off of the only. I'm saying, well, the teams accept that. And I think teams are just like, come on.

You know, I think like, come on. Like, did you win the MVP? If you won a Super Bowl, if you won a Super Bowl, if you won a Super Bowl, MVP, come on. Let's 36, 37, 38. You know, I think they try to, and it might, I mean, other quarterback's numbers might be pretty close, but I feel like teams will probably take a hard line against the good, he is such an outlier. But the agents are going to try.

And depending on how desperate the team is, they might have to meet it, you know. That's a lot of, you know, ifs, but look, it's all about leverage. Life is about leverage. Depending on how desperate those teams are to sign those guys and avoid whatever troubles can come with a protracted, you know, standoff with a star quarterback, you know, that'll probably play a big role in how close they come to that number. Yeah, and listen, the rule is always that the most recent quarterback is going to be the highest paid quarterback.

And I think at one point, during the Mahomes contract, he would no longer be the most highest paid quarterback. That actually might happen within a year because that's just the way it goes. When Matthew Stafford or Derek Carr, those guys start signing contracts for $25 million a year as they did a couple years ago, they weren't the best quarterbacks in the NFL. in Carr's case, far from it, they just happen to the most recent to negotiate. Matt Ryan makes a ton of money. He is not the best quarterback in the NFL.

He's a very good quarterback. But that's kind of the rule of paying a quarterback. And I compared it and have compared it to real estate in Manhattan, which is every time you see a building or a condo gets sold, and you go, wow, that was really expensive. Well, in three years, somehow, even though you thought it was ludicrous at the time, it's somehow become more expensive. That's what quarterbacks are.

If a guy you think, you say, what the hell? That guy's worth $25 million. Well, in three years, a quarterback just as good as making $32 million. Jared Goff is counting $36 million against the cap. It doesn't make sense. Life is not fair. Quarterback pay is crazy. So Mahomes will get fairly compensated.

But then I think beyond that in a couple of years, he will look like a relative to bargain. 100%. That's why, if you're the chiefs, you want to do it as fast as possible. Yep. Last thing for you, Teraz, the Chiefs. Did their playoff run change anything in your opinion? You know that team, so what? You were a beat writer.

Again, you live in Kansas City. Is there anything you learned about this team and their ability to sort of build going forward that you weren't in the playoff run that you didn't know before or a player that stood out where he said, this guy or this thing could be an X factor to this team going forward

that we weren't really thinking about? As somebody who grew up following like a team that's kind of cursed in the lion, like the chiefs are proof that like that curse can be snapped man. I know they won a Super Bowl 50 years ago, but and they're not Cleveland, right? But this team,

this franchise, these fans have been through a lot. And then they just got this generational quarterback. And there's that word I know you hate, but it's true. You know it's true. And it all just went away. So, you know,

I think like in a lot of ways, like if you're a fan of one of these teams that, you know, the negativity is so real because they've given you nothing to believe in. Like the chiefs can be are really like proof that like, you know, like it can happen for your team if you get lucky enough and you hire the right people.

Like it can happen. Like it can happen. Um, because what's happened in Kansas City over the last two years has been an outright phenomenon. It's been, because I've lived here 14 and I know the negativity that's swirled around this team and the playoff losses. It just,

it all went away because they found someone to believe in. So if you're a fan of line, or you're a fan of the Brown. You get the right people. You hire the right people. You draft the right guy. It can happen to you, too. Yeah, it's funny because I, after Mahomes,

won the AFC championship game against the Titans or the Chiefs did, I wrote an article in the headline, which again, we don't write the headlines, but it was Ackorneux leads to the Chiefs out of the Wilderness into the Super Bowl. And I got all of these people, Chiefs fans and non-Chiefs fans who were angry at me because they were acting like I was saying, the Chiefs were in the wilderness or the comparing them to the Browns or whatever.

They, as a franchise, they kind of were. I mean, they won the Super Bowl 50 years ago, as you said. They had not won a game with a quarterback they had drafted for three decades. Like, this was not, I mean, they were not winning playoff games. They weren't, they were kind of stuck in the middle. And no, they weren't the Browns, they weren't the Lions, they weren't whatever. But that was a franchise that was stuck. And they weren't going to win the Super Bowl as much.

I'm sure you and I are both Alex Smith fans were. both Andy Reid fans, they were not going to win the Super Bowl with that duo. It had to be Mahomes. He was the one that got them stuck out of the mud. Yeah, and so I think it's fascinating that you caught a little guff from Chief fans on that because all I heard from them, since I started covering the team in 2013, was, you know, you don't know, like wait to the playoffs. There was always a loss in like November and December that kind of portended how they would

lose in the playoffs. it never failed. It always happened. And it will be after those games in November and December, they would be so pissed. Like via social media and they call a radio station. Because like they knew. Like they were trained to know that's how they were going to lose.

And they had a couple losses that like without my homes. Like it would have been like that. Like the Tennessee loss in November, 100% without my homes. Like they lose that thing or in a similar way in the playoffs in the AFC championship game if they even make it that far. But no, like,

they were in the wilderness before my homes arrived. Maybe they were equivalent with you because they would argue that last year, like he let him out of the wilderness because he did kind of break a lot of streaks and, like, bust some ghosts,

so to speak. I get it. Yeah. We learn every week the internet is a very big place and there's a lot of angry people. Yeah. Therese Pailor,

senior NFL writer at Yahoo, thank you so much for joining us. Hey, appreciate you, go.