The Ringer NFL Show - The Controversial Conference Championships | The Ringer NFL Show (Ep. 388)

Episode Date: January 21, 2019

The Rams edged out the Saints with the help of a questionable referee decision, and Tom Brady took down the Chiefs on his way to a ninth Super Bowl. Hosts: Robert Mays and Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This year's biggest ad won't be on the big game. From the people who brought you Skittles comes Skittles commercial, the Broadway musical. Full of music, drama, and brands shamelessly corrupting the beloved medium of live theater. Tickets are going fast, so go to Ticketmaster.com and reserve your seats now. Broadway the Rainbow. Taste the Rainbow. Welcome to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark.

Kevin, how you doing, buddy? What a day of football, Robert Mays. the day. You were in New Orleans. I was in Kansas City. It was very cold. The walk back from the stadium was frigid. I really understood why every single person I walked past in the parking lot on the way in had a bottle of fireball just on a table because I think you needed to be very drunk to survive that game while standing outside. So I actually saw some. The vibe in New Orleans was more people just carrying around like 12 packs and then drink for themselves. Yeah.

I thought that was really, that was a good vibe around the stadium. I was hugely impressed with, with the way New Orleans set itself up. There's a couple of cities in the NFL where because the stadium is sort of near or within walking distance of the heart of the city, Seattle is like this. When they play a big game, it takes over the town and it's just the bars are really fun. And listen, like, this is not a knock on 25 teams, but there's a lot of stadiums. are just in parking lots and there's no real city vibe and new orleans was quite frankly amazing today yeah i can imagine that it was i mean i loved being here i loved being an arrowhead i really was excited

about this game i'd never seen a game here period let alone a playoff game and it definitely was up to my expectations and just the game itself was fantastic but let's start both both of these situations this is pregame and for about four and a half quarters and then then the city's Stop being amped. Oh, I can imagine that it's just desolate in both of those places. I mean, Kansas City, so I just a little bit peeked inside behind the curtain a little bit. So I had to walk out across the road to a hotel to wait to get a lift. And it was a charit man.

I'm just sitting there. And just there's so many sad chiefs fans waiting for cars and kind of like running through the boulevard beer sponsored bar that was there. And just so much sadness. And yeah, I can imagine that New Orleans was very much the same. A lot of people, so I don't know if this was football specific, but a lot of people were crying. But I also think that's just sometimes you get alcohol in you and you cry. Yeah, that's fair.

You know what I'm saying? Like, I feels like there was some incidents. I was in the, I parked sort of in the French quarter, so I was walking through there. And I couldn't tell if it was like, we got hosed. I'm crying. or just like, I've been drinking for 12 hours and I just got in a fight with my buddy and now I'm going to cry.

Some incidental cryers thrown in there. Those two things are probably linked in a lot of cases, I would say. I agree. One fueling the other. So the tears and the reason behind the tears and the reason behind just the pure heartbreak that went down today is that both of these teams lost in just miserable, brutal fashions.

And let's start with the game that you were at because I feel like more than anything, that is the story of the day and will continue to be the story over the next few days. And that is the call heard around the world. It's the non-pass interference call heard around the world. So I want to talk about this. So there's a couple people who've said it's the one of the worst no calls I've ever seen

or Peter King called it the worst no call of 2018. Can you remember in a spot like that a worse no call? I think the spot is what really adds to it. I mean, the fact that a Super Bowl appearance is on the line. And this shifted because of the, that call. And I understand they could have run the ball, all that stuff. Fine. We can get into that. Sean Payton, by the way, no one's talking about the. Shumpin in the press conference said, I was there. He said it was a run play. They checked into a pass because of the Blitz.

Yeah. I mean, it's, listen, it should have been a first down. Like, if it was a first down, none of this matters. They win the game. So it's, I understand the criticism. We can get into that. There was odd choices clock management wise and game and situationally all day by pretty much every team. the Patriots included. So that stuff always pops up. But if that play is a first down, the game is over. It's not a, oh, they had so many more chances than whatever. Those chances wouldn't have mattered.

The game would have been over. And I think that is why it's such a gut punch. Let's back up here. So I only preface by saying that the Saints should have blown out the ramps. The way that the game started, it almost reminded me a little bit of that giant's Vikings game, what, 15 years ago or whatever, longer? Where everything. Yeah, 18. It was 2000.

So everything went wrong. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What game we're talking about? Oh, no, that's, for whatever reason I, for whatever reason I was thinking of the 98 NFC championship game. Yeah, yeah, the 41. I know what you get at. But you get the interception quickly.

And if you start out, if you, if you don't kick field goals there and score touchdowns, obviously the Butterfly effect, the effect, maybe there wouldn't be the second turnover or whatever. But there was a chance for them to be up really big, really quickly. And they kick two field goals early. Even if you get 10 there, I think it's, a totally different game. I feel like the Saints could have put a lot more points in them early and we wouldn't

have to worry about the fourth quarter. So I think that is a separate conversation. The fake punt changed everything. But if you give the ball back. Of course. But I'm just saying the wave was coming. And whether it's getting the three or whatever, there were a lot of chances for the Saints to take a huge lead earlier in that game and they did not.

And the Rams, they had life. Okay. So the Saints should have won this game. and the old Jimmy Johnson line, don't let it be close enough for the referees to screw you that was in play today. Having said that, that call was offensive.

And Bill Vinovich comes down and says, I haven't seen the play. Well, buddy, it's your job. Look up the play before you talk. Has he seen it now? Has he seen it now? Maybe he'll just never watch it. I mean, first of all,

there was this pretty strong photographic evidence who's looking right at the play. So I don't know what the hell was going on there. Okay. But beyond that, so let's look at this. Sean Payton knew his pass interference. Tommy Lewis knew his pass interference. The defensive back said he whacked his ass.

And not only that, he was trying to commit pass interference because he wanted to prevent a touchdown. So it wasn't even like, oh, we got away with one. He was intentionally doing it. So then Al Riveron, the officiating head, he calls Sean Payton. And he says, oh, yeah, we blew it. So literally, literally everyone is in agreement that this was a penalty that was blown. So there's all these RAM fans. I didn't even know there were this many Rams fans, but there are all these Rams fans.

What about this face mask? What about this? What about this? You have everyone in agreement that literally a call that should have won the Saints, the game wasn't called. Like that's it. You can go, it's kind of what you said a couple of weeks ago about holding Twitter, right? You can just go through a game and say, you miss this, you miss this.

And that's fine. You can do that probably 10 times in each game. But this was a game and this was a call where all you had to do was throw a flag and the Saints are going to the Super Bowl. Everything changes. I was just watching NFL primetime. This is something actually I thought of right after the game, but Tom Jackson was on NFL primetime with Boomer actually tonight. And he was saying this is a legacy changer. Think about how much differently we'd be thinking about Sean Payton, Drew Brees, Alvin Kamar.

Now Sean McVeigh. Now, Jared Goff. I mean, there are so many. This is going to be an inflection point. We talk about what ifs. There's no guarantee the Saints ever get back here. This is two straight heartbreaking losses for them. And they pretty much have, eventually, I guess the NFL is going to apologize for this.

It was a pro football talk report. They were going to apologize or admit they were wrong. And now they're saying they're not yet. But by the way, what is that solve? I mean, it's not if you drive. If you drive off... Are you going to retroactively give them the game? If you drive off a lot after buying a car and the car explodes, it's not going to make you feel better if the company goes, this one's on us.

The legacy changing thing. The legacy changing thing is such a good point. And I was thinking about that today, too. It just, it changes everything. It changes the entire complexion of the conversation about both of these groups. Because if the Rams lose this game, after losing, looking as bad as they did early on. How many owners are kind of looking around being like, oh, man.

I thought about that. We hitched our wagon. Man, we got Sean McVeigh's tree and he can't win a playoff game. We got Sean McVeigh's less talented friend. But also, by the way, you know, Todd Gurley is going to escape a little bit because he was literally removed. We didn't know if it was an injury or whatever. He told reporters after the game, McVeigh, that Gurley was removed for game flow

reasons. And then Gurley basically said, I didn't play well. he got benched. And if they lost this game with a bad Todd Gurley, that is an offseason narrative alert. Yeah, I mean, those two drops, those are two of the biggest plays in that half, one of them leading to an interception, obviously,

but then the next one was a drive killer. I mean, he just, he didn't look right. And I know he says he's healthy, but doesn't it feel like there's something going on there? I don't know. It just, it would be hard for me to believe that he feels 100%.

maybe they're trying to limit his usage, keep him fresh, whatever. It's late in the season. He had a lot of carries. But it still just seems like the way that they've been mixing up him and Anderson, even when it's going well, that they don't want to put a huge workload on him. And I don't know if health is a part of that,

but I kind of feel like it might be. Yeah, I mean, look, I don't know. We can never know what this injury stuff. I think there's part of it is, and it's been said many times, you're never really 100%. in the NFL. And so I just, I don't know if they can

use them in a way. I mean, I saw some of the tweets that were like, oh, they don't think they can win with Gurley with the outside running game, whatever. Like, I kind of feel like if you make a guy at the highest paid running back in the league, he's going to do all of the roles for you. Yeah, you should be a situational guy. Yeah. Yeah. We're not going to. The power runs that they're doing with Anderson. Why can't Todd Gurley do that?

Right. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, I, I, I just feel like we're not, we should not be splitting, you know, half and half here. I, you know, CJ Anderson obviously has a role. role, but you pay Todd Gurley and you take Todd Gurley in the top 10 for a reason. So let's get into some of the stuff that worked for these teams. I mean, we're talking about a lot of stuff that didn't, whether it's the referees or guys playing poorly. But I was impressed by a few different guys in this game specifically. Alvin Kamara was out of this world good.

I mean, he was the passing game for the Saints. It was a rough day from Michael Thomas. And it was a rough day for Drew Brees. Honestly, he did not play very well, considering what we expect. respect from him. There was not a lot of stuff down the field for the Saints. They needed Kamara in pretty in high leverage situations and if they didn't have him,

I think their offense kind of would have been D.O.A. Yeah, no, I agree. I want to give this stat that Cynthia Freeland tweeted out. I thought this was fascinating because it goes to your game as well. So in their first matchups this season, Michael Thomas and Tarikil, obviously against the Patriots and the Rams respectively, Michael Thomas and

Tyreek Hill combined for 19 receptions it 353 yards for touchdowns. Today they combine for five receptions, 78 yards, no touchdowns. So if you look at the little victories in both of these games, limiting Michael Thomas and Tyree Kill, and that's something we talked about

on Thursday with the show when we were both in New Orleans about Tyree Kill and press coverage. But those, limiting those two guys was absolutely key to both the teams going to the Super Bowl right now. The Michael Thomas thing after last week was, I mean, it was strange sort of how, how, how, how, how, not how badly he played, but I mean,

just the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, I thought in the dome, I thought he was, I was, I was, I was really, really disappointed with, with, with how the saints called plays. I was really disappointed in their red zone operation. I mean, not just the first two, two, two drives where they, they, they probably should have been up 14 to nothing, but, I mean, listen, they, again, they probably should not have been in the situation. where they're throwing a Tommy Lewis on a long third down. They put themselves in situations they should not have been in. The refs screwed them, but they helped screw themselves.

I mean, it's one of those things where we, we make the jokes all the time about how Drew Breeze can turn accountant Dan Arnold into a dude to catch touchdowns in the NFL. But Dan Arnold had a ball he should have caught today. But yeah, he almost created one of the most impressive throws I've ever seen to Dan Arnold today. Yeah, exactly. But eventually that stuff is going to come up. And no Keith Kirkwood today.

So that's why you have Tommy Lee Lewis. It's just one of those things where the personnel and it being more and more deteriorating more over time as the season goes on, that stuff matters. It doesn't matter if it's Drew Breeze and Sean Payton. That stuff comes up. And that's why if you take Michael Thomas out of the game, there just aren't that many non-Kamara receivers on this team that can hurt you. You require Breeze to be at the next level in order. to make those guys worthwhile in big moments like this, and he was not up to the task today.

No, not at all. What did you think of Sean Payton today? I mean, what's your issue with it? Is it more about, is it about the running in that moment? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just, I don't know. I just felt like the play calling seemed a little bit off.

I mean, I think that the, I obviously did not totally enjoy the clock management at the end there, but as he said, they saw Blitz and they checked into a pass. understand what they were doing. I just felt like, again, there were a million reasons they should have won this game. Yeah, and I understand the runs. I mean, if you run the ball there a couple times, you probably win. I mean, then we take the uncertainty of that pass and that call out of it. But, yeah, I mean, McVeigh also wasn't that strong. I mean, that, not going forward on that fourth and one from the one inch line. What was that? Well, here's a thing. And

I think this is how you should govern all your plays. I know it sounds unscientific. The same were probably so relieved that the Rams didn't go for. And if you're looking at the other sideline and you're saying, I'm going to scare somebody by doing this, you should do it. Unless it's reckless. If it's the percentage play, just do it?

I mean, not only did the numbers and the analytics say you should go for it, but you're going to put the fear of God into the defense by going for it on a very, very short fourth down for the win. The Patriots did the same thing. Yep. They had that third and one in the first drive.

and they line up in a heavy, we'll get to this, but they line up in a heavy formation and just run the ball into the line. It's like, why are you doing Seahawks stuff? Like, this makes no sense. Like, do something different.

Like spread them out and run the ball like you did on the first three third out. We'll get into this game. But there were just a lot of decisions made by really good coaches this week and that I just did not understand. I have never seen a more down locker room than I've seen in New Orleans today. I was in the Falcons locker room after the Super Bowl.

I saw the Falcons locker room. I saw the Falcons locker room and it wasn't, it was a little different. Do you know what the previous worst one was? It was actually the Niners after the lost to the Ravens. And the reason that I think about that is because I followed

John Harbaugh's parents down a hall and I watched them hug their son who lost. They all went to the losing locker room. So they went to gym. Yeah. And they hugged him and I was in that locker room and it was the most dire, sad place on earth. And I saw a locker room today that was even more dire and sad.

Like they weren't even mad. I feel like sometimes you go in there and they're mad and they're saying, like, I can't believe we miss this or whatever. These guys just had like thousand yards stares and they're just like, there's nothing we could do. The other team didn't beat us. We lost because a guy was staring right at a play. And I don't even know how you fix this, by the way. I guess you make every play reviewable, but I mean, isn't it a huge red flag? There was a guy staring right out who just didn't throw the flag.

But I think that's the argument for making it reviewable is that then we just get out referees who can get better referees who can figure out an obvious call? Like, do we need replay for that? Or do we need someone who's like, hey, that pass interference? Let's call that. But that's what I'm saying. I think that replay takes the uncertainty out of it. And that's the appeal of replay in those moments.

Yeah. I mean, listen, Bill Belichick's been calling for this for five years, maybe longer. Everything should be reviewed. Well, that's how they do it in the CFL. I just don't understand.

I couldn't find the comment. I was looking for it. I think I was there when he said it. But he, Belichick basically, you know, I think we can, it's a shame in the league can't afford this or whatever.

You know, it's like they have, they make like $15 billion dollars a year. Like, can we get three more cameras? Yeah. Yeah, it just, there should be better solutions to these problems. And it's just, I don't understand why there are.

So the other, I want to talk about, before we move on, I'm going to talk about Jared golf a little bit because I was disappointed in how the Rams offense looked early. I think a lot of people were. I mean, they're quick, their dropback game was just not very good. You just weren't scared of them when they were playing that way. But I'll tell you what, man, golf made some throws in that game. The throw to Cooks at the end of the first half, huge, just a monster. throw. Great play call.

I mean, that's just a slot fade, which works seemingly every time teams decided to do it. And it worked there and it was gorgeously placed. The throw that I don't think enough people will talk about because there was a better throw on that drive. Remember the throw he made to Everett on that third and

three where he had to roll out and kind of come back across his body and Everett kind of rumbled with it afterward? Huge play to keep that drive alive. And then the throw to Reynolds, boy. Ooh. And again, that's great coaching. You have DeMario Davis on Josh Reynolds because he's in the slot. It's teams reacting with more linebackers than they should have on the field in those moments against the Rams because of how they like to run the ball.

And McVe did not throw a shut up, but there are so many moments in that game where him and his quarterback came up big when they needed to. It was the loudest building I've ever been in. It sounded awesome on TV. For football. For football. I'm trying to. I went to a very strange way. I went to a Bruins lightning game seven where they they clinch the east.

And I was just as a journalist. I had to do a story. This was like really early in my career. And that was the loudest building I've ever been in for any sport. It was just stunningly loud. Like I can't like my ears like gave me a headache. And this was the only football game that's, it's resembled that. I mean, previously, you know, the Seattle NFC championship games are really, really loud, but they're outside.

They're very different. This was so unbelievably loud. The stadium was shaking. I'm sure everybody at home saw the sort of viral photos of some of the tiles coming down inside the tunnel. That wasn't anywhere near the stadium. That was inside sort of in the hall, in the hallways of the Superdome. So none of us saw it. But it was just stunningly loud.

And the funny thing was they would pop for anything. So like, you know how, I've been to games in Chicago, like, you know, how they show like Scotty Pippin on the board and people just go crazy. They were just popping for like, not. just Morton Anderson, but like Courtney Robey got a huge pop, Jerry Evans. It was just like they would show just the most random saints and people would act like they just showed Michael Jordan. It was so fun to watch. They were so enthusiastic. Just an optimistic fan base, I guess you could say. I mean, it was it was an awesome fan base. We talked about this earlier this week. It's such a good fan base. It reminds me, I remember Les Miles saying this about

West Virginia one time. And when they went and played there, and he's like, it's a football party. And that's kind of what I felt like today. It's a football party. Like everyone is just there. They all got a 12 pack of bushlights and they're just going to or something local. And probably not. I saw a lot of 12 packs of bushlight.

But, you know, it's, it was just such a cool atmosphere. And the other side of this is the effect that the Rams are going to hang in this when communication was so crazy. They should have lost that game. Yeah. Golf was very impressive in that regard. To go into that environment and be okay was very impressive. Yep.

I'm totally with you. Yeah, that's my favorite. That's why I love closed or that's why I love games and domes because you feel like you're in the stadium. Like as great as Arrowhead is, you're watching from the press box. You can hear it a little bit, but you're in a closed window. So it's just there's something about being in that type of environment in a dome stadium for a huge game like that. There's nothing

that can match it. Totally agree. Any other thoughts? Not really, man. This is tough for the Saints. I mean, we're going to get to the Chiefs in a second, but it's a very different vibe in losing these games because if you're in New Orleans, this might be it. If you're the

Saints, you have a superhero that is 23 years old is going to be there for 15 years. It's just it could not be on if you're going to have in the realm of heartbreaking losses, these could not be further apart in terms of how good you feel about five years from now. Because is it hard to get back? Yes. Is it easier to get back when you have one of the best

five quarterbacks in the league? Much easier. And I think Mahomes is going to be that for a very long time. Yeah. I mean, this is, Drew Brie's literally turned 40 this year. And he is this week. Yeah, this week, excuse me. I mean, 2019. Oh, yeah, yeah. And it was Wednesday or Thursday or whatever. Yeah. And so I just, you know, it's already hard enough to repeat and get everything right to where you can get to the same. Again, Minneapolis Miracle, they get to the divisional round. They get here. I mean, it's a lot of things have to go right. A lot of things have to go right. And so many things broke for them. I mean, even the little things like the Eli Apple trade not being, I mean, we were kind of laughing at the Eli Apple trade. But it was huge. It ended up being

just a great swing. Maybe it's actually a thing, and we keep, again, it's another thing we keep laughing at, maybe Jeff Ireland is a good drafter. Maybe Mickey Loomis is, you know, is running a front office there that is, from what I hear, maybe some more analytically inclined than we think. And beyond that, just they're hitting on draft picks at a really, really rapid pace. And I think it's impressive. And maybe they are able to repeat it. Or maybe it's just been an incredible couple of years, and this is at the end of something. It's hard to draft well every single year. You need more bites at the apple. That's how you build really good team. It's about accumulating traffic. The Saints have done the opposite of that. They trade up all the time. They don't have a first round pick next year. They're trying to maximize

this. And they've done it in a certain way. They've really done a great job of giving Drew Breeze his best last shot here. But you only get so many of those. And I think this was their best chance to win one. I don't know if it's going to be this good again. Maybe it will be. But I just think that it's really hard to find the calibrations to be that good of an NFL team and get home field advantage and have it be completely aligned for you to get there. The problem with going all in and trading a first round pick for a pass rusher because you think you're a past rusher away is when it doesn't work out. It really, really doesn't work out. That's right. So let's get to the Saints and the, excuse me, let's get to the Chiefs and the Patriots. I mean, could you have a more

perfect Patriots game? I don't know if you could build a more perfect Patriots game. Let's go through all of the elements. One, Tom Brady does ridiculous shit in the fourth quarter. Two, Gronk, like, Cyborg Grunk, who half of his body is like metal

comes up with two monster catches in ways that we've always seen him do before. They're lining him up one on one outside against Eric Barry. He's catching balls down the sideline. They're lining him up as the single receiver opposite. it on a three by one and having him run slants for first downs.

Edelman and just destroying teams with that little motion where they're taking advantage of man coverage. They take the ball, the air out of the game, all game, by running it as much as they did. They had a 34 minute time of possession advantage. Let's get two more guys in the Patriots Distressed Asset Hall of Fame. Trent Brown was really, really good and so was the offensive line today, even though the quick game helped. and Kyle Van Nuoy was everywhere.

It's just, if you had to check off every box for what makes the Patriots the Patriots, they did all of them today. I just want to address Kyle Van Nui for one second. Layed on me. Kyle Van Nuoy tweeted out, hashtag we suck. I know. We've got to stop this, guys.

I know. We've got to stop this. Isn't it, is anyone saying they suck except like self-deprecating Patriots fans? no like our own Bill Simmons first of all there are no self-depicating Patriots fans no like so it's lowering

expectations for a while yeah that's that's a ruse that's a Bill Simmons like nonsense reverse so now Kyle Van Noyes they's been confused by the ruse yeah no one understands what's actually happening

anymore but yeah I mean we're just deep into like Andy Kaufman layers of we just have no idea what anybody's talking about talking about who's doing performance art. It's just, man.

I mean, and then just the game plan offensively and just being able to dominate on third down, control the ball, the game plan defensively. Well, not, but,

but not just that, but there was nothing more patriots than me saying, well, they can't possibly, me, analytic brain thinking, avoid third down at all costs

and certainly avoid third and long at all costs. Of course, they can't just keep, converting third downs like this, third nine, third ten. And every single time finding gronk or finding Edelman or whatever. And just they make the impossible sustainable. And they've been doing it for 18 years. Yeah.

I mean, it's just, and it's little things, right? So we have the gronk, we have the edelman. But we've talked about this so much. It's about being slightly different than you were the year before. James White was incredible in the first half. James White was their offensive weapon in the first half in two different ways. One, they were using him as a running back on third and short, and it wasn't even third in that short.

Two of them were third and four. One of them was third and one. They threw the ball, I believe, they threw the ball, I believe, 70% of the time when James White was in the game this season. You're breaking tendency in the most important game of the year. That's what you do. And then the offensive line is the same way. There are how many years were there, the Patriots like, oh, man, how good is their

offensive line. This is maybe what's going to hold them back. That's why they lost to the Broncos in that AFC championship game. And then this year it's a strength. It's just being slightly different and having slightly different players step up in those moments. That's how you do this. Having Tom Brady and Bill Belichick helps, but you need to go the other direction as well. You need to come at it from multiple angles. But it's also about being the least flawed team. And this is something that they've been doing for 20 years.

it's not about being all in. It's about simple economic principles and knowing, okay, we don't necessarily, you know, one of the things Patriots fans have talked about all year is their lack of weapons. And they, you know, the Josh Gordon thing is what it is and it didn't work out. But, you know, at some one point it did. But, you know, their lack of weapons, oh, you know, everyone's playing. They're going to get passed over by the offense revolution because they only have gronk and Hogan's not what he was or whatever.

they know, they know what they can get away with. And they've been doing the bare minimum at certain position groups. It's probably different every single year because all they care about is the depth of the roster. If they can rob Peter to pay Paul, they will do it. And that is why I think that everyone counts them out because they misunderstand how the Patriots win games. And that's situational football that is having the right people, doing the right jobs and just knowing. I mean, the whole do your job thing, 99.9% of football mantras are complete bullshit.

Do your job is not. There's a reason they scout these guys for exactly what, and I remember I've talked to this a couple times, the way Belichick scouts, as opposed to the vast majority is, don't tell me what a guy can't do, tell me what he can't do. And when you know what a guy can do,

all you can do is put him in the positions where he will succeed. If you know, I'm not at the granular level enough to know what Kyle Van Nuoy can and cannot do specifically, but I guarantee you,

they said, what can Kyle Van Noid do? Okay, great. That's all he's doing. I mean, he blitzed a ton today. That's what they did. And he was,

he had pass rush skills at BYU. And it felt like with Detroit, they were trying to make him more, it's just, I don't know. I guess, yeah, I probably am overstating

my understanding of it on a granular level as well. The world this story, is the Patriots get the most out of these guys. And the game plan was amazing. The chiefs, if you look at their chiefs' office, and this is just classic Belichickian nonsense too,

if you look at the chief's offense, it's the best offense in football. But what is their weakness? It's the interior of the offensive line. Without question, it's the interior of the offensive line. So the Patriots built an entire defensive game plan about taking advantage of the interior of the offensive line.

It's just, this seems like it should be more obvious, but it's not. They're the best at this, and it's just, they're the best at this by such a wide margin. It's unbelievable. I wasn't paying attention to the last 30 seconds because pro football talk posted a story titled, Commissioner has authority to take action over Ram's Saints outcome in theory. What does that mean? He's just, he looked at the rules, and he's interpreted that the Goodell could just reverse it

if he wanted to. Oh, yeah. That would go over well. That's why I think I clicked on and then I had a stroke. So I didn't hear your line analysis, but I'm sure it was great. No, it doesn't. It honestly doesn't matter. And it's, it's whatever.

If it makes you feel better, I was going to have no relevant point to come back to with. That's totally fun. Okay. So you want to talk about the chiefs? I mean, a little bit. I mean, it's just, you watch that game. And it's what makes Patrick Mahomes so fun is that there are some of these throws.

that it doesn't matter if the game plan is perfect. And it doesn't matter if, like, I mean, again, let's talk about just how well calibrated the Patriots approach was. They're blitzing. They're playing man. They're forcing him off his spots by putting, getting pressure up the middle. They moved Stefan Gilmore onto Kelsey in the second half of that game,

which is, they didn't give up any points in the first half. And the fact that they just were like, yeah, you know what, let's do this anyway because we know we're going to need to. That's the type of stuff that most teams just wouldn't do. So you build this game plan to slow. down the presumptive MVP of the NFL. And then every once in a while, it just doesn't fucking matter.

He's going to throw the ball 55 yards on the fly to Sammy Watkins while rolling to his right. And he's going to throw that ball sidearm around Adrian Claiborne. And I think, I can't remember who that was to Demarcus Robinson, no, Demetrius Harris. Yeah. And it's like, how? How is that possible?

And yeah, it's, that's the thing. And that's why he's That's why he will continue to be great. And that's why he's so fun. But at a certain point, man, the Patriots are here to rob us of our joy. They are here to suck the soul out of football. And they will ruin everything you think is beautiful.

I have a question. Why to, as a football nerd, see, I think I appreciate the Patriots much more than you do. Is that do you think that's great. Oh, no, I definitely do. It's not about appreciating them. Oh, absolutely I do. What they did today was amazing.

I enjoy watching the Patriots. I have almost no, in fact, I don't. I mean, I'm obviously a journalist, but I don't. I have no, there's some teams I just don't like watching because they're boring or whatever. Or I just don't think they're very good and they keep winning and then that just annoys me. I just think the Patriots, much like Alabama, they always get this far because they're better than everybody else. and I think there's something extremely admirable about the way

they do that. And, yeah. I just, this is more from a perception standpoint than anything else. I just, it just annoys me a little bit when everybody's like, oh, man, this sucks.

And it's like, well, beat them. Yeah, it's not even better at that. I mean, I don't care. You know,

this doesn't matter to me. I just, newness is fun sometimes, you know, and I think that that's the brilliant I love the trees, is that it's always a little new. I would love to spend

two weeks celebrating the chiefs. I mean, I think I've spent, and both of us have spent four months celebrating the chiefs. We're going to celebrate the chiefs in a Super Bowl soon. I guarantee that in the next three, four years. I think that this, you know, it's, it's interesting to me because here's the way I feel about the chiefs. Did you see the Adam Schaefter report today that the idea is that Mahomes could get the first $200 billion contract in the NFL? No. That sounds right. That sounds right. It would be after next season.

And the one thing... And you forget this is the second year. For contract reasons, that really matters. But I just... And golf is a year ahead of even that, by the way. That's what I would be curious about. I came away from today more impressed with Jared Gough than when I went into it. But I do understand where people might be apprehensive about just handing him that deal.

I think he's going to get one. I do think he deserves it. but I feel like with Goff, it's not necessarily the knee-jerk, oh, let's give him the $180 million as it is, that it is with Mahomes. I think Goff and Dak, two very different players,

but I think that they are in the same boat in this regard. Before you ink them to the extension, there's some people, and I think Mahomes is like this, Aaron Rogers is like this, where it's just, okay, we're going to give them this money and nothing else matters

because we just have to keep this person. And I think that for Gough and Dack, you have to have a very, very specific plan when you give them the veteran contract and how you're going to spend your money. And you have to be, I mean, it has to be a very, very tough negotiation. If you're going to go and give these guys a blank check,

you're going to ruin your franchise. I think that it's, it's, those are really interesting test cases to watch. Anyway, the point is, what I was going to get with Mahomes is that we're really taking this young quarterback thing a little too far. They really only have them

on a real discount for depending on how they structure it, at least one year, maybe two. But if they give them a huge mega contract after next year, they're going to lose a lot of their value. I think Mahomes is one of the very rare people where his value is going to make up for it. His actual on-field value is going to make up for the money that they're going to tie up in cap. And whether I guess that's about $20 million, he's worth a $20 million receiver because he's Patrick freaking Mahomes.

But I'm just saying, because. he's 23, we're looking at this future is bright thing, but you've got to strike while the iron's hot, and it's something the chiefs have to think about. And I think with the Rams, that's even more pronounced. Because with the Rams, they hate all these guys. Yeah.

Well, they've already acted on it, though. So this was the chance to take advantage of it. If you look at what the Rams' contract situation is going to be like over the next couple years, they have so many high-priced players. I mean, the golf thing is going to run out. It's not going to be very long until he does have that full-fledged quarterback contract.

And when you combine that with these other big deals that they've signed, I mean, that's tough, man. I mean, they have $35 million in cap space next year with golf at being on his rookie deal. But look, do you know who their free agents are? And Domiton, Sun, Lamarcus Joyner, Roger Saffold. All of these guys, I mean, like, I mean, these guys are big money players. I mean, it's just one of those things where we say this all the time.

they're not going to be as good next year. They're not going to be as complete. You need to win this while you have the chance to do it. They went all in this year for a reason. And if they don't get it, if the Patriots do this again, it's just going to be one of those things where you sit back and wonder, if not now, then when? How are we going to do this?

Dude, how about an Indomacan Su just not showing up until the last two games? It was great. He was a monster today. It was really fun to watch. I love this. I love that he, what was, was he just, did it take him a while or was he just sort of, I'll see you in January kind of thing?

I mean, I think they always knew they'd get there, so why not treat it that way? Before we get out of here, I feel like we have to address kind of the calls in the Patriots game, the Patriots' Chiefs game. They weren't nearly as pronounced as the call in the Saints game, obviously.

But there were some calls in that game, and it's like, what is going on? So I'm thinking of the Edelman punt, which under review is, correct. I mean, I don't think he touched the ball. There's the Hogan catch. Again, after review, it doesn't feel like he touched the ball,

but they were so close. The only call in that game that I just thought was, what are you doing? Was the roughing the passer call on Chris Jones, which changed that game. It changed the entire complexion of that drive. If that doesn't happen, then they're staring at third down.

I believe it happened on second down. So I think they're staring at third down, and then who the hell knows what happens after? that. So, I mean, there, again, just calls coming up in these huge moments that you just wish the refs were not as big a part of deciding these games.

Why are the refs so bad? It's a really good question. It was second down. So it would have been third and seven. I would like to answer the hypothetical I just threw out there because I've done a little bit of reporting on the referees of the past couple of years. And there are certain

structural problems. There's too many exceptions to the rules. There's too many many rules that are put in place only to address other rules. Dean Blanino told me this thing about how there's an exception to something about like delay of game after you spike the ball where you can decline it. Like literally just something that has happened once in history that is something about Jeremy Shacki where the owners like, we have to change this. And so the refs had to learn this and it just hasn't happened since, you know, in the last 15 years. And so there's structural problems there. You know, the game is a little too fast to, to, for certain plays to be

legislated with the human eye. There are literally, you know, dozens of things that cause referees to maybe be a little worse than they should. But the, the scarier thing for the league, in my opinion, is some of the calls we saw today had nothing to do with those things. It was just guys looking at plays and getting it completely wrong. And it's not a strong. And it's not a structural problem. It's not a problem with the rules. It's a problem with these dudes looking into play and screwing it up. That's scary for the league and they've got to figure something out. No, that's a great point. And I do think that's probably the league's greatest fear is what they saw today. But overall, it was a great weekend. It was a great weekend of football. It's two great

games. And I think that's all we got. So as always, thank you guys for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network. We'll be back on Thursday.