The Ringer NFL Show - The Corners to Stand on in the 2019 Draft | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: April 12, 2019

The guys offer their stances on every corner of the 2019 NFL draft, including when to trade up or down, which position we will remember in five years, why wide receivers are the new running backs, and where to land on Drew Lock (0:38). Then Danny Kelly drops by to break down D-lineman and the front four players in this year's draft (35:00). Hosts: Robert Mays and Kevin Clark Guest: Danny Kelly Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. Season 8 of Game of Thrones begins this Sunday, which means binge mode Game of Thrones makes its long-awaited return, with your resident experts Mallory Rubin and Jason Concepcion guiding you through each episode. And to get your fix every Sunday night, Chris Ryan joins Mallory and Jason on Talk the Thrones, a Twitter after show recapping each episode throughout the season. So make sure you check out the binge mode podcast on Apple or Spotify, Talk the Thrones on Twitter, and for even more Thrones coverage, you can head to the ringer.com. To The Ringer NFL show. I'm Robert Mays.

joined, as always, by Kevin Clark. Kevin, how you doing, bud? I'm doing better than you. You've got weird ear shapes and you've got your earphones in today. Tough day for you. Yeah, Apple headphones are, they don't like me. They judge my ear shape because I don't have a little shelf that holds them in, so they fall out constantly. A little shelf. And I'm having to use my phone. Just think about your ear.

Like, it goes up and it keeps the headphone in. mine is flat, so they just fall right out. It's been an ongoing problem since Apple has started to dominate my life. It's not great. I'm serious about it. I'm a little upset. Godspeed, thoughts and prayers for this podcast. And I'm also not doing as well as you because congratulations, buddy.

Your Orlando Magic career and playing in the NBA playoffs, it's happening. I'm flying out. We're going to be a game four just in time. I would say, I don't want to get greedy. I would say that game four is when to go up 3-1 on Toronto. And it'll be nice. It's been a while. Yeah, it's fun.

My wife and I have been together for seven years, and we only, at the beginning of our relationship, I explained, one of the magic's first playoff games, obviously, the year. So I explained it to her. I was like, yeah,

the magic made the playoffs over here. And they have not made it sense. It's one of those conversations we always have about the value of making the playoffs, of just making the playoffs. And we always talk about how, well,

who cares if you're like the seven seed or the eight seed? and then you ask someone from that fan base that hasn't made the playoffs in nearly a decade. And they're like, oh, we care. We care desperately that we made the playoffs. It's just a fun thing to do. I'm not flying home to go to a, you know,

there's not a lot going on. I'm not going to fly home for the AAF. I'm not going to fly home for Orlando City versus FC Dallas. Hey, I'm happy for you. You don't have to defend your choices to me. I completely understand. It's going to be great and I hope you enjoy it. So we're continuing our draft shows today.

we and I are going to talk about the three corners that we want to be on in regard to this year's draft. Kind of the three things we're planting our flag in. When I pitched this yesterday, you thought I was talking about cornerbacks and you were very confused, why we were going to devote an entire show to cornerbacks. You said the corners show. And I was like, all right. I mean, I guess if you really feel strongly about the cornerbacks in this year's class, we can do that. I just want to grind corner tape for an hour.

No. That's what I thought you meant. It's us establishing the corners we're taking on this draft where everybody knows exactly where we stand on any issue. I'm going to throw out a few. You're going to throw out a few. And then as we've been doing recently, Danny Kelly is going to join us.

We're going to talk about a specific position group. This week it is the front four players, defensive linemen, outside linebackers, which I think a lot of people consider the kind of premier group of players in this class. So we're going to dig into those guys. Danny's very high on a couple specific players that not as many people are really touting.

So I can't wait to talk to him. about that stuff. But before we do that, let's get to our corner. So why don't you throw out your first one? Sure. Okay. So about 13 years ago, two economists, one of whom went on to win a Nobel prize, wrote a paper essentially saying that you should never take the draft pick that you are given. You should always trade down. And the Patriots built a franchise around that. The Eagles have done so. You know, Jeffrey Lurie came out a couple weeks ago and said what is exactly correct, which is they're not cocky enough, that was his word, to think that they can outdraft everybody. They believe in volume. They want to hoard picks. I get it. I would have done that

every single draft basically since I figured that out, right? I would do, I would hammer that strategy over and over again. Here's my thought. We live in a post-Sashi world. We live in a Belichick has been doing his thing for a long time. The Eagles, the Ravens, teams that hoard comp picks. You look at the Rams, they've got some compics this year. The smart teams have figured out how, I mean, basically they have to get rid of the compics in the next CBA because teams have figured out how to hoard them so much. You can also trade those compics right now, which was not the case three or four years ago. So, I guess what I'm saying, and let's dovetail this with a story I read yesterday in Miami Herald. It's a really interesting story about how when the dolphins were going to draft Minka Fitzpatrick,

Stephen Ross just reflexively said trade down and we need more picks. And the Dolphins, Chris Greer said no and took Mink of Fitzpatrick. And I guess what I'm saying, I understand the strategy. And I endorse the strategy of getting as many picks as possible. I am a sashi believer. But if there is a critical mass of owners who want to trade back, no matter the cost because they want slightly more picks, at some point the value of trading up becomes worth it.

Debate me, May. inefficiencies, right? So I'm not, I think that it's about... The Patriots have 12 picks. They can't put up, they can't roster them all. And so what do you do? You just, maybe you package a handful of those third round picks or second round picks, whatever, mid-round picks, fourth-round picks, and you just try to sneak into the second

round. Grab that tight end. Maybe you keep going up and up and up, and all of a sudden you got no offense. I'm just saying there are going to be inefficiencies and they trade up market as more and more owners catch on to the trade down market, which at some point has to start saturated. So there's a couple different thoughts that I have here. One, most of the trades up we've seen recently, especially the aggressive trades up have been for quarterbacks. Those are trades I typically would endorse if you think you have your guy. And those are trades that include very high level

picks. Both the Texans and the Chiefs gave up a future first round pick when they went up and their guys. I think they would, I mean, clearly they would make those trades again a hundred times out of a hundred. But the quarterback is so valuable that those are a little bit easier to rationalize. When we're talking about other positions, it becomes much more difficult. So I think the specific situation that you have with your team has to be such that a trade-up makes sense. If you're a team like the Patriots, whose window with Tom Brady is not necessarily huge, who has a ton of picks, sure, you make your trade-up. But there are a lot of other things where it's like, ah, this is not something I would do. I would never trade up if it includes a future

first round pick. Things like that. I'm not suggesting that. Sure, exactly. So I just think that certain types of trades are off the table to me. But there are other types of trades where, you know, if you're swapping a third and a fifth and you're the Patriots and that makes sense to you, I get that kind of stuff. But I think there are certain teams where that's just never true.

Let's take, for example, what the bills did last year. So the bills obviously go up and get Josh Allen, but they do something else a little bit later in the draft. they had the number 22 pick. They trade that to the Titans, and they flip a third round pick of theirs for a fifth round pick of Oakland's in order to get Tremaine Edmonds.

I would never do that if I were the Buffalo Bills, because you're not in a position where that third round pick and fifth round pick has a negligible difference. That matters a lot. The chances of that third round pick turning into a starter for you and the fifth round is huge. I would wait those six picks,

take a player that's not Tremaine Edmonds, and get that third round pick. So I think it matters on your situation. In a vacuum, you always want to trade down, but I think there are certain teams that understand they're competitive enough that the difference between the third round pick and the fifth round pick, they can wipe that away. But so many teams, most of the teams in the league are not in that position.

I want to talk briefly about the trade chart. So Jimmy Johnson invents the trade chart 30 years ago. There are some tweaks to it. Belichick says yesterday. Just George has one that I use that's a little bit different than he kind of revamped a couple years ago. And so Belichick says that, team uses the same trade chart now. It wasn't like that a couple years ago. And Bill Barnwell

correctly pointed out, this was Bill Belichick trying to tell the NFL that he uses the same trade chart that they do. He does not use the same trade chart that they do. That's the, Bill Belich just do anything else that, like, I don't even, Doug Marone does. So, have you read Astro Ball yet? No, I'm familiar with what's in there. So I was reading it today. I'm reading it right now, and I was just kind of digging into it. It just reminded me of that when Bill Belichick throughout that yesterday, just because there's so many different kind of quantities and variables that go into some of these analytical systems that professional sports franchise is used now. And if you're a team that cares about analytics, you're not using a draft chart that

Jimmy Johnson made in the late 80s. You have a different way of understanding how to value these picks and what they're going to get you. So I think what he's trying to say or what the point of that. comment from Belichick is that makes more sense to me, is that enough teams understand the value of draft picks now that you're probably not going to gouge teams on some of these deals. I think that's more the message.

Even though if I don't agree with it, I think that's closer to the truth. Sure. So, a couple things. Number one, I had a, I slightly disagree with you on the gouging thing and here's why. I had to talk two weeks ago at the honors meeting with a, how to describe this person.

with a person. How about that? With the person. And they were talking... They've had high picks in the past. And they were talking about trading out and trading down. And they were saying that when it comes now to having a top three pick, depending on how many quarterbacks are, this is probably a two-quarterback draft in the top five,

you'd say? Yes. Most likely. I mean, again, this is all speculation that who the hell knows. Let's say you need to be in the top two in 2019, okay? Sometimes you need to be in the top five. sometimes like with Darnold, you need to be, you know, in top three, whatever. So that's where we start. And I think that what this person was saying was that now because the quarterback, because the cheap quarterback is so different, you know, as Kevin Demoff said,

saves you $50 million over the cap over the first four years, there's no trade chart because it's an auction. It's an auction because that different teams are going to freak out and overvalue a guy because of all the things that should, should freak out and overvalue a team, a young cheap quarterback who was under contact for five years. And so I think that the teams are the very top of the draft, if they're thinking about trading down,

I don't necessarily know if that's the case for either of these two. I mean, if Haskin rises up, I could see, obviously, the 49ers doing it, but they wouldn't want to fall that far. They still want a prospect to pair with their quarter-town. I think the 49ers would not trade down. I think the 49ers have a sense of urgency about getting better quickly because of all that they'd be.

No, I know. But if you could go from, if you could still stay in the top six or something. I don't know. It depends how much they like Williams or Bosa. Oh, I would do it. Just to be clear, if I were the 49ers, I would trade down. If I were the Cardinals, I would trade out of that pick. So I'm with you.

I also, I'm totally on board with this. When it comes to quarterbacks in the top three, there is no value. There's no comparable value that you're getting back for those picks because teams are Just to wrap up, to wrap my point, basically this person was saying there is no trade chart at the top because all you're betting on is a team panicking. I'm totally with you there. We are on the exact same page. I think those are the picks where you can really just needle teams because it's all about desperation. It's all about teams just flailing because they need a quarterback. And that's why I think that one of the best things to have in the draft right now for value is to be a team, like you said, if it's a three quarterback, whatever, in the. the top X amount of picks already having a quarterback. The latest example being the Colts, obviously. And I think that right now the Cardinals are in that spot if they think Rosen's their guy.

And that's why I think it's not as simple as do we want Kyler Murray or Josh Rosen? Because if you can get a King's Ransom for that pick, it becomes insanely more valuable. Yeah. I totally agree. So again, when I'm talking about how does value in trading up, I don't mean for the second pick. I don't mean for the first pick. I mean for the 28th pick.

And I think that sure, we're going to start to see that. I mean, if everybody, if there's just an army of Steve Rosses who just want to trade down because they read that all the smart people do it, then you can take advantage of that, especially if the trade chart isn't actually in use. Sure. I'm with you.

Okay. Let me get to my first one here. I feel like we're going to talk about this position group later. And I think that's been the talk of this entire draft process outside of Kyler Murray, is that there's so many pass-rushers. so many defensive linemen. In my opinion, though, when I look at what teams need, what's worked out in the past,

and a couple other factors, I think the position group will remember when this draft is all said and done here in three years and we're looking back is offensive tackle. Because so many teams need ready-made pass blocking tackles, and there's a shortage of them, and it seems like there is a surplus of them in this year's draft. It used to be the case where offensive tackle in the first round was typically the safest pick. You know, that's the type of guy that instantly made you a lot better. I'm thinking about the 2008 Dolphins when they picked Jake Long. They were the worst team in the league.

Then they had a huge jump. And there's been a lot of those kind of examples over the years. But it's gone the other way now with the Luke Jokal drafts and all that stuff. Remember for like 20 years every time anybody's draft their left tackle, the armchair analysis was just, well, penult. pencil him in for 15 years. That's exactly right. Like what?

And it's just been 10 year. It never happened. That's what people said. So, but a lot of guys, that was the case. You know, if Jay Kong hadn't gotten hurt,

he's exactly that type of player. So, but it's going the other way recently. You've had so many swings and misses. Eric Flowers was bad in the top 10. There's, again, Greg Robinson. I think this year we're going to see a lot of tackle succeed

because they're different types of prospects. And I'm thinking about Andre Dillard from Washington. that's my guy. John Williams from Alabama. John Taylor from Florida. Dalton Rizner from Kansas State. Cody Ford from Oklahoma.

Because if you look at these guys and you think, and I've watched a bunch of them and I've read a lot about all of them, the conversation and the analysis around them is so much different than some of the top tackle prospects in recent years. You think about what Eric Flowers was. Every evaluation of Eric Flowers was, God, he can move. He's so big and powerful. and he's got the feet,

we can figure it out. But his weaknesses were always, well, he's a little off balance. He's not a good pass blocker. He's got to get better. Those are the bad choices you can make in the first round about an offensive tackle. The good choices you can make are

this guy pass protects very well. He's going to have to work on some stuff in terms of strength or, you know, he doesn't fit the profile in terms of traits or he's a little small. He's not a mauler in the run game. That's kind of the book on Dillard. But those guys can block people.

They can stay in front of people when you throw the ball a lot, which every team does. So I think we're going to see a lot of those tackles succeed this year. And then next year, as teams try to reverse engineer why picks works, they're going to say, well, we need an offensive tackle in the first round. And they're going to go back to these Tracey guys again, and they're going to be sorely disappointed. So it's kind of like a two-year cycle here for me.

Hey, did you see the Mike Renner stat about true pass sets taken over the course of the career for the prospects? No. Okay. Let me share them with you. That's a really good stat, though. I did not see it. Well, let me share it with you.

Cody Ford 99 over his career. 99 past sets. Juan Taylor 404. Dalton Risner, 418. Jonah Williams, 459. What do you guess Andre Dillard is at? I bet it's 1,200. 966.

Mike Leach is the king, man. There's a, no one has ever had 10,000-hour theory of pass-blocking except Andre Dillard. But that's... But when I wrote about offensive line play a couple years ago, that was one of the biggest issues. It's that there wasn't a 10,000 hour kind of moment for these guys anymore because of practice time and the offenses and all this stuff. So if you have pass blocked that many times, it puts well for you. And he's really good at it.

So I just think all these guys, I mean, like Dalton Rizner, it reminds me of like when Cody Whitehair was coming out. And maybe they just because they played in the same school, that's kind of my thinking, just guys that can play. Guys that understand leverage and angles and how to use their hands and just little things that matter. matter. Like Jonah Williams. People look at Jonah Williams and I just don't understand how all this over analysis. The guy's just good. Just draft him and you're going to be fine.

It's like what like last year, right? So there was these offensive tackles taken in the first round that just didn't know how to play. Colton Miller's draft kind of profile was, you know, he's got decent feed. He's above average athletically. He's got a big frame. But it wasn't, he just knows how to play football. And all these guys seem to. And that's why I think it's going to be a really good class of players.

Yeah, I'm with you. I don't, I got to be honest with me, is we're wired differently. I don't think there's any way I think about any draft class and think about the offensive tackles, but I get what you're saying. All right, what's your next one? I think that this is, don't read too much into the state what I'm about to make, because it's more general, but wide receivers are the new running back in the sense that there is going to be quality throughout maybe the first.

first four rounds, and you can wait and get a really good player. And that segues into what you're about to say in Mayes, and we're going to converge on our points. Go ahead, baby. So mine is that I just think Miles Boykin from never game is going to be good. Yes. Like, I watched, when I'm watching other players, I did a breakdown today on gran1.com, which is a website you should read.

Excuse me? About, yeah. Jesus Christ, I can't believe I did that. Excuse me? Craig, leave that in. Leave it in. Wow. Excuse me.

I'm sorry. It's been three years. It happens, man. It happens on the ringer.com, which is a website that you should read. So, and it was about the Michigan guys. And I was watching the Michigan defensive players. And I'm watching the Michigan defensive players and they're playing Notre Dame. And it just seems like every time I watch a Notre Dame game when I'm trying to watch another team, he pops.

It's like, that guy's just going to be good, man. his traits are off the chart. He's 99%ile broad jump, 98 vertical leap. He's 64, 220. He ran a 4-4-2-40. I mean, the dude is just a crazy athlete. And he's flawed. But all the receivers in this class are flawed.

There is no true number one guy. You're like, that's the dude. He's complete. Every single one of these players has something to be concerned about. And I would rather draft Miles Boykin at 70. or 65. I think he's going to go higher than that. Well, fine.

Or in the back half of the second round, let's say, then draft D.K. and that 20 or 15. Yeah. I mean, there, yeah, I've been saying that for,

for a number of pots. And I think that, you know, I think Bucky Brooks, I saw this morning, has his first receiver off the board being Hollywood Brown. And I think Dana Jeremiah said that yesterday as well.

Excuse me. Okay, maybe they both said it. They have a very good podcast together. So maybe they just, they've merged mine. But I think that I don't know if taking any receiver in the top 20 is worth it when you consider the depth. And I think that that's a little bit more environmental than we think in the sense that...

That was what I was about to ask you. This is what sort of youth football, high school football, and college football have wrought, which is, you know, I remember reporting the story five years ago about seven on seven leagues and sort of their effects. And you have to remember who's getting really good in seven-on-sevents. Well, the cornerbacks are just basically paying straight-up man coverage. Maybe there's some value in that, but it's not very complicated and whatever. I mean, they're getting some reps. Seven-on-seven is pretty much two-man across the board. That's what they play in seven-on-seven-conters are playing man.

Yeah. And so you're getting – you're throwing in a tight windows all the time. So quarterbasket better. And wide receivers are constantly running routes and learning against really tight-man coverage. And so wide receiver is really good. And the size is there. You know, Belichick talked about yesterday about, you know, how many guys there are who are, you know, six, four, six, five. And you're going to need guys to cover them.

I don't, I think that it's amazing to me how quickly, how quickly it shifts between, okay, the wide receivers are tall, we need tall cornerbacks. Okay, now the wide receivers are small. We need small cornerbacks. That seems to reverse itself every, like, three years. and it's one of the most interesting parts of the chess game within football. Yeah, Bealichick was talking about this yesterday. I had a really interesting quote about that, just the changing shapes of players and how you kind of have to respond to it.

I don't know, I think this, in terms of tall wide receivers, I think that's more a class-specific thing to this group than it is something to be said about the direction of football. But I feel like what you're saying with more wide receivers being contributing players, that is true in my mind. mind. And that's been true really over the last five years. You know, if you look at the receiving classes we've had recently, you really have to go back to 2014 to find guys that were drafted in the top half of the first round that were transcendent players that deserve to be drafted that

high over guys later in the draft. That was Mike Evans, Odell Beckham. You know, those two, they're different. Those two are unicorns. But every class since then, you really are getting comparable value for players later in the draft. So in 2015, you had a Mari Cooper go fourth overall. But you look later in that draft, you got Stefan Diggs in the fifth round. You got Tyler Lockett in the third round.

You go to the 2016 class. Corey Coleman was the first wide receiver taken. Will Fuller was in the 20s. But you've got, I mean, Tyree Kill is obviously a different kind of case. But those guys have not outperformed guys like Michael Thomas, Tyler Boyd later in the draft was better. 2017. Juju in the second round.

right. Juju in the second round, but not only just Juju. Juju. So you had Corey Davis, 5th, Mike Williams, 7, John Ross, Knight. Later in that draft, you have Juju in the second round, Cooper Cup in the third, Chris Godwin in the third, Kenny Gowaday in the third. So this has really played out here over the last five seasons. The 2008 class, obviously it's a little bit early, but I mean, nobody in that group really blew you away. Calvin Ridley was very good, but I think that guys like Christian Kirk, Dante Pettis, dudes that were drafted in the second round, I still have hope for Anthony Miller.

So I think it's a really good point. I'm with you on that. I still feel like every once in a while, we're going to have a guy that's worth drafting fifth overall. You're going to have a Julio, somebody like that. But for the most part, I think that you're right on. Yeah, I mean, again, every couple of years, someone like Julio is going to be worth it.

Someone like AJ Green is going to be worth it. Someone like Odell is going to be worth it. But in this sort of draft, for we've all oddly talked ourselves into D.K. Metcalf. Yeah, no, I can wait on that. Thanks, guys. Great point. What's your next one? Okay, so I, I've been saying this for two years, I think. I looked up what I wrote about it on the ringer.com. And it was two years ago, July 2017.

You remember where we worked? I do remember where I worked now. It was July of 2017. And I said that I felt like the pendulum was going to swing back as defenses were getting smaller, that offenses would get bigger. They would be using more tight ends, more full backs as a way to exploit defenders. And that hasn't really borne out

over the last two years, except for the smartest teams. So right last season, there were eight teams that were an 11 personnel, less than 60% of their snaps. And it's the teams you would expect. It's New England, San Francisco, Philadelphia,

these teams that are very good at kind of diversifying, New Orleans, diversifying their personnel to keep defenses off balance. And I think this is the draft where teams, again, are going to kind of reverse engineer their plan. They're going to look at who was good and why, and they're really going to get a lot bigger.

We're going to see teams that don't seem to need a tight end, take one. A guy like Trevon Weston, I think is his name from West Virginia, not a guy that jumps out, not a fast guy, not a particularly prolific receiver. And they get 20 receptions last season. but he's an excellent blocker. He weighs 270. You can use him as an H-back as a full-back. I think we're going to see more teams looking for players like that

in order to mix up what they want to do offensively. I was talking to Warren Sharp about this a little bit earlier today, and he sent me some numbers. It is remarkable how much more efficient passing games are out of big personnel packages. When you have two tight ends on the field instead of three receivers, it's one, a whole yard better yards per attempt. within those heavier sets.

And I just think teams are going to start understanding that and start using more of them. And I think especially as this Shanahan-Kubiak-McVe tree system kind of proliferates in the NFL, it's going to become even more exaggerated. So that is my very long-winded point. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I just, I think there's a lot of ways to build a team,

and I think that's one of them. And I think that, you know, there's so many things that teams could do to be more efficient. They could just run more play action, for instance. But this is one of them. And if I think it's something... And play action is more effective out of these sets.

That's part of it. Exactly, exactly. And so, and that's something you've written about a lot. And I think, yeah, I think it's definitely a model. I mean, there's a reason that a really smart organization like San Francisco gave more money to a fullback than any team in history. Yeah. And there's a reason that the Patriots do this stuff.

I mean, it's just, it really does give your team just a modicum of efficiency that other teams do not have because you keep teams off balance. I mean, there is a reason that it's a higher touchdown percentage. It's a lower sack percentage. It's a lower interception percentage. It's safer and it's more efficient. So I just don't understand why more teams don't embrace this. And again, as the best teams, there's the most efficient offenses prove that this works.

I think this is the draft where we're going to see it shift a little bit. I wouldn't be surprised if last year it was eight teams that were less than 60% with 11 personnel. I would be surprised next year if it were 12. or even more. I think this is the year where it really starts to take hold. I want to talk about, are you done?

That's it. What's yours? Don't cut that, don't cut that sigh and pause. Drew Locke. Oh, man, this is going to be great. Let's go. I'm putting the gloves on.

I am pumped. I want to read. Let's do reading. Drew Locke, written about it, Sports Illustrated by our prayer today. about his demeanor. He's one team's over with his personality.

Let's get to the quote. AFC scouting director. He's unflappable. He just has a ton of confidence. Part of the issue with rookie quarterbacks are throwing a lot at them. They start to make mistakes. They get in their own head.

You get the sense from Locke, he'll be unfazed by it all. Like he'll throw three picks in a game and come back and think he's this shit still. Yeah, that's great. I'm in on this. What's the problem with that statement? Well, first of all, now he's just J-Colour.

Now we're just J-Colour. We're just, we've talked about it on the pod for three straight weeks, and now he's just Jay Culler. Are you familiar with FIFA at all, Robert Mays? The organization? No, like the game. Sure, I played. I think, so, like, I think they just have, part of the thing is that they just regenerate old, retired players. Like, if a player retires, they then come back as a young player and they do the whole career again.

That's part of the career mode there. This is just what we've, we've, we've, Jay Culler has just been reborn, and he's, he thinks he's the shit still after three, interceptions. I want to tackle this point because it shows you, you know, it's been 20 years since Moneyball. And that was sort of sort of the joke in that book was, we're not selling jeans. You have these scouts. And I'm sure you read it an Astro Ball as well.

You have these scouts who are still going on sort of old world philosophies. And then the new school toppled those scouts. And now we have a scouting director who is just pumped and jazz. that he's going to be really cool after he throws three interceptions. And I can see why teams make mistakes. That's all. I think we're looking at the wrong things.

I don't think they should give any thought to how whether or not a player is going to look cool after three interceptions. And beyond that, I don't think Drew Locke is very good. Fight me. I like Drew Locke. I'm in.

I just think that... So tell me, you see more in than you have been the last couple of weeks. me about it? I was not really. I think that I'm a similar amount of in and it's because I've started to kind of double down in my own mind about the stuff I said before where it's not that he's inaccurate. It's that there are bad plays. He's not consistently off with throws. When his, when everything is working together, when his feet are in concert with his upper body and when he's confident about where the ball is going, he really places it well. I don't think you can fix an

inaccurate quarterback. Like Josh Allen, I'm still concerned about. I always will be. I don't like Daniel Jones, stuff like that. But watching Drew Lockplay, there's so many throws where it's just on the money. And Dan Rolowski pointed one out today on ESPN and on Twitter that he just put this whole shot against Alabama where it was a deep half safety and he just puts it right up the sideline.

He's got the arm to make it happen. And those are the types of throws where I just think, if you put him in the right system with the right coaches and you get it. him a really nice quarterbacks coach, he just has the physical ability to be really successful and really good. I think it's just a matter of cleaning up feet in just disadvantage of situations. That's where I'm at. And I just think that it was so bad at Missouri.

The help was so bad. Their team, their program was so bad during the time he was there. I just think if he gets put in a good spot, he can be really good. So some of his throws are as good as anybody in this class. my concern I mean some of these throws are just unbelievable I mean I you know

Josh Allen good right and uh but I I worry about the bad place I just I don't know I mean I just care there are a lot of them

and he still completed what 60% of his passes last year again I mean if you think that that he's not an inaccurate quarterback that's fine I just I the bad plays were were pretty bad I there's a lot of

there's a lot of joking NFL Twitter about the first is armed talent going around right now. Drew Locke is an armed talent prospect. I agree with that and I also don't agree with that because I think we ascribe that phrase to quarterbacks to just have huge arms that don't know where the ball is going. And he knows where the ball is going often enough. The problem is there are just two or three plays a game often.

We're like, what the fuck is he doing? And my concern is that often you can't teach that out of a quarterback. We're talking about that with James Winston when he was coming out. can you make sure a guy isn't willing to just throw it up for grabs when it's not working? And I don't know the answer to that with every single guy, but I think that with the right coaching, he can be talked out of it. Sam Donald, same kind of situation. He had 15 interceptions last year, and that was the concern about him coming out.

Can you get rid of that? And I don't know. And with Drewlock, I just see enough where if you think the answer is yes, then you take. You would draft him where? In the top 10. The top 10. Yeah. I would not do that.

I think he's better than other quarterbacks that have gone in the top 10. Do you think he's better than Haskins? No, probably not. I think it's close, though. I'm not a quarterback evaluator. These things are really difficult to parse when you don't know exactly what you're watching.

I can tell. I mean, it's, I just know when there are certain elements to a guy that I like. I wouldn't be able to tell you kind of the incremental differences between the two. I just think that I see enough plays from Drew Locke where he can be a successful NFL quarterback. Sure, but that's how we end up with Josh

Allen. I'm just, I'm not comparing the two. I'm just saying that NFL throws are how we ended up with Josh Allen going in the top five. Top 10. Josh Allen's not accurate. Josh Allen's never accurate. That's the biggest difference to me. And that, to me, is the most important difference between quarterbacks. Listen, none of this matters.

John Elway is going to sell the farm and they're going to run under center for the next four years. That's the problem. I just think he's going to go to, who's the offensive coordinator in Denver now? It's not. This is the type of stuff. Oh, it's Skagorella. I'm in. Let's do this.

Oh, you're in? Well, if it's that system, if he's doing the same kind of play action stuff and kind of wanting to do a Shanahan kind of offense there, I'm in. Because we talked about this with DK. I just think that's the type of system he could really succeed in. So let's do this. I'm okay with that. If they want to draft Drew Locke, I support them. My corner is don't take Drew Locke in the top 10.

My corner is, I'm okay if you do. And I think Drew Locke can be good. Again, caveat in the right setting. Who can't be good in the right setting? plenty of quarterbacks, plenty of quarterbacks. I think a lot of quarterbacks can survive in the right setting. I think that it takes a decent quarterback to thrive in the right setting, still to this day. What would Josh Allen look like in the Rams offense?

I think he'd be worse than Jared Goff. No, no, no, I agree with that. I'm just wondering, thought exercise wise. I think he'd be fine. And I think that's what I'm saying. Most quarterbacks can be fine. If you make it to the NFL, you can probably acquit yourself decently in any system. but I think that it still takes a certain type of player to be really good no matter where you go.

And I think Drew Locke can be really good in the right system. That's DK. Let's get them on. We are very pleased to welcome Danny Kelly to the show, draft guru, Danny Kelly to the show, to talk about this year's class of defensive alignment and front four players. DK., how you doing, buddy? I'm doing excellent. How are you guys doing?

Good, DK. I'm great. Mays planted his flag on the Drewlock corner. You missed it. I'm just not as down on Drew Locke as you guys are. that's all. The worst takes in this entire company right now are your Drew Locke takes and producer Craig saying that I would lose in a boxing match to almost everybody.

We're not getting into this. We can get into more Drew Locke later, but we're going to save the boxing takes for our non-existent boxing podcast. Craig thinks anybody taller than they can beat me, which is wrong. And we're doing a separate pot on this. All right. Well, I'm glad the boxing chat is out. Cheddar is out of the way.

All right, Danny. So let's start off with the guys that most people, just consensus. think are at the top of this draft. And I think that the first name in that list is probably Nick Bosen. I don't know how much there is to say about Nick Bosa. It's lazy to compare a guy to his older brother just to do it. But when I watch Nick Bosa, it's completely relevant because they're pretty much the same player. Right.

I mean, they move the same. They're around the same size. I think Joey is a little bit bigger, but they're both explosive. They're both really physical. Yeah, they just like look. They looked like they moved the same on the field. It's pretty eerie, actually. They have the same moves.

They both have that little, like, instantaneous kind of swipe rip move that's kind of a push-pull because there's some hesitation. It's not even being lazy. It's the exact same move with the exact same timing. It's crazy. And that's why I think that when you're looking at this draft and you're thinking, all right, is he the number two overall pick? Well, if Joey Boso was the number three overall pick and the chargers are thrilled that they did it, Why wouldn't Nick Bosa be a top five pick? Yeah, I mean, I, I mean, to me, he's number, he's number one in this whole draft.

I think with him and Quinn and Williams, one A, one of the highest ceiling guys, one of the highest floor guys. As long as he can stay healthy, which is always just a question mark for everybody. But, yeah, I mean, he's explosive. He's got some bend when he turns the corner. He can really turn the corner well. He's got a lot of great hand moves. Like the way that he swipes away, like you were saying, the way he swipes away offensive linemen's hands makes him just really unstoppable.

He can do that while he's countering inside. He's just really, really good. I think if you go back and watch some of his 2017 tape two, it's just really clear why he's going to go so high. I think he'll be the number two pick. Yeah, I mean, just amazing hands, unbelievable hands. But again, similar to his brother. They're so comparable as prospects.

It's kind of nuts. So you mentioned Quinn and Williams. I want to talk about Quinn and Williams a little bit. Let's talk about Quinn and Williams. Yeah, let's do it. What do you think of Quina Williams? So I understand the appeal. And the reason I understand the appeal is just that he's such a good football player.

He has such an amazing feel and he does a lot of things well. Are you amazing? Are you going to do it? He's such a good football player and then a butt? Yes. Okay. The butt is coming. When you look at his skill set, it's varied.

He's got such a good understanding of how to use his hands, accurately using his hands, when to hit certain moves and different types of moves. I just think his ceiling is defined. And the prospect he reminds me of in some ways, even though they play slightly different positions, is Leonard Williams. And the reason that I say that is because you're watching the guy in college and you're just seeing him dominate college competition

because he's so sound. And he knows how to use leverage and timing and all of the stuff that we like in terms of just a refined defensive line, prospect, but he's not a great athlete. And eventually, that type of player is somebody that you can start for a really long time and rely on just without even thinking about it, but never makes a dominant transcendent impact, if that makes sense.

And when I'm taking a guy in the top five, it's hard for me to rationalize a player that I don't think can ever be even a one-time first-team all-pro. I mean, so like he's definitely not the athlete that like an Ed Oliver is in terms of his, I guess, explosiveness and things like that. I will say, I think he is extremely quick. Like if you watch him on stunts, his first step burst is really, really good, but on stunts, he can get lateral really, really fast. So they used him actually to kind of bound from gap to gap a lot of the time.

So I think his quickness is really, really key to his game. I think he's got elite quickness. And so I don't know if he's necessarily an elite athlete like some of the other guys in this class or some of the past defensive tackles the last few years. But to me, the way that he combines that quickness with, like you said, his hand use is extremely good. It makes him so slippery. You see offensive linemen lunging so often with him because he times his punch and he times his swipes and things like that to kind of just discard block.

I just think that's what makes him such an elite player. I'm really bullish on him. I do think he has that all-pro potential. I just think, like I said, his size, his length, his quickness, and his power, you know, the way that he combines sort of his hand swipes with power, I think, is what makes him such a good player. And I think the sky is the limit for this guy for me. I understand that. I can completely see where you're coming from.

I'm a little bit concerned, but I see the same stuff you do in a lot of ways. this seems like a weird thing to say, but he's very accurate with where he puts his hands. And that seems like it's a silly thing. But there are so many guys where you'll watch them and they just throw their hands a lot or they're swiping all over the place and they're swinging them and they're just flailing.

They don't know what they're doing and they don't put them in the right spots. Being able to shoot your hands to the place where you want to really matters for defensive alignment. And the quickness, you can be quick in two ways. You can be athletic and you can get from point A to point B fast,

fast after you make that decision or you can anticipate where you're going to go and you can use that to be quick. And his ability to diagnose is fantastic. And I think that's a big reason why he's able to get places in such just like that. I mean, in the blink of an eye because he knows where he wants to go before most guys would. So I love him. As a football player, he's got a lot that you'd enjoy. But I still think that athletically, there's enough of a ceiling where it would make me a little bit hesitant when there are other guys in this draft that I just think are unbelievable prospects. His, he did not do much last year. He's a little bit of a one-year wonder. And obviously, there's a lot of extreme talent on the Alabama defensive line. So there's, I guess there's

some reasoning to why he only kind of came out this season. But to talk about the hands point you talked about, it's not just placement. I think that's obviously extremely important, important as you're saying. I was talking to Dan Hatman, former scout, now runs the scouting academy. He was telling me about hand timing, how important that is. For a defensive lineman,

it's because it's not just where you put your hands, it's when you strike your hands. Because like I was saying earlier, a lot of guys, a lot of offensive linemen will try and punch him, try and get inside his pads and kind of get leverage or whatever. But he times his swipes and swim moves

and all that stuff so perfectly that literally it looks like he's, you know, like a, like a matador with a bull, like in terms of these guys are just lunging past him every time. So I love the guy. I think he's going to be really good. But yeah, I mean, the one year wonder thing is a little bit worrisome. And like you said, the top tier athleticism, I think is another thing that you got to keep in mind. So the other guy kind of in this conversation at the top of the draft is Josh Allen from Kentucky. And two things I love about Josh Allen, one, the production.

I mean, he was, are you the most productive edge rusher in college football last year, playing in the SEC? You can't overlook that. He's an unbelievable athlete. He tests exactly where you'd want him to. And my favorite thing about him, and this, again, might seem small. But at the combine, a lot of people, I like this question, just who's the best player you played against this year? And pretty much every single offensive lineman that played against Josh Allen said Josh Allen. And I just think that's so important.

Every defensive player said, Kyle Murray, by the way. Yeah, I mean, and it's, I just, I love that. I just love that he's the type of guy that keeps you up at night during the week. They're like, how am I going to stop this guy? And those are the types of players, I just think succeed. I assume Nick Bose is very similar to that just because they have a plan. They're so good. I don't overthink it with this guy as far as I see it.

I just think that everything that's being said about him is correct. He's going to be a really good player. I'll be curious to see how teams use him. Watching him play, you know, he dropped into coverage. so much. And I understand that it's cool that he can do that and it gives you kind of a sense of unpredictability on offense. But I also think that when you have Josh Allen, you should just let him rush the passer all the time. I don't know how you feel about that. I was almost a little bit like frustrated watching Kentucky tape. I was like, I want to watch him just go after the quarterback more.

I do not want, I don't want, whatever team takes him, I don't want them to turn him into Bruce Irvin. And when I say that, I mean, for the Seahawks for a long time, he was. was kind of this Sam linebacker on base downs, then he would rush only on third downs or obvious passing situations. Like, I agree with you. If you're taking the guy in the top 10, he should be rushing the passer a lot more than that. I think, like you said, it's cool that he can do all that. It's nice to have that versatility, but don't get him off the line of scrimmage very often, in my opinion. I think, you know, just let him do what he's doing. Let him get after the past rusher because, or let him get after the quarterback, I should say, because that's like what he is.

he's a pass rusher. You know, you bring up how everyone was saying that he's the best defender that they were all facing this year. The last time I heard so many people say that about one guy, it was Miles Garrett a couple years ago. So, you know, take that for what you will.

But I think that it certainly means something when so many guys say that about him. If I'm the Jets and he's there, I just don't even think about it. It boasts has already gone. I just, I run the card to the table. and just I start celebrating because they've been looking for an edge rusher for it seems like every single year since John Abraham left that franchise. All right.

Let's get to the guys that you are significantly higher on than other people are. And let's start with Montez Sweat, who you have, I think, in the top seven. Well, in a mock draft, in a mock draft that Danny and I did, it's going out later this week on TheRinger.com. Oh, five. You have been five. bullshit. I threw him. I've got him at 12, Maze.

You're looking at the mock draft. I think you're going to look at the big board. Okay, I was looking at the mock draft, yes. But either way, Kevin, you finished your point. I had him going to the Jets at 3 because I wanted chaos to rain. I just wanted to screw up Danny's mock draft. I didn't want, I didn't want, besides the fact I love is measurables. I wanted Danny just totally uncomfortable during the mock draft.

So I went full, I went full chaos. Okay, but you haven't been five, Danny. You haven't been five in the mock draft in 12. in the Big Board, which is higher than other people do anyway. So outside of the testing, because he was just through the roof at the combine, what do you like about him?

Or is that it? Just the athleticism. I mean, I think it's obvious the athleticism and the frame are two projectable things that are, he's just rare in both of those things. I think it's kind of like the same deal as when Daniel Hunter was coming out. You know, he didn't have the production,

I think that a lot of people wanted, but there was traits there and there was, I guess, flashes of everything that you need in a pass rusher. He doesn't, he's not as bendy at the top of his rush as like a Von Miller, obviously. But I think just the way he's able to use his length and like take that, he's got a 36 inch, he's got 36 inch arms almost. So it's like crazy amount of length plus that athleticism, the first step burst. I just think it gives him a really, really high ceiling. So he's, to me, like a high, high ceiling guy. He had pretty decent production in college. And I actually kind of think you, I take, I don't know if you're necessarily right that I think I'm higher than a lot of people on him.

I saw Lance Zerling the other couple weeks ago say if you have him after number eight in your mock draft, like you're doing it wrong. Like he's going to be a top 10 pick. Which I understand. It's funny because you said Daniel Hunter and I don't necessarily see a lot of that. the when I watch him because of the, I think D.O. Hunter is a change of direction is one of his biggest attributes. And he's so good at kind of those inside counters.

And there's some of that with sweat. But when I watch him, what he reminds me of as a prospect is if D. Ford were four inches taller. He just has that unbelievable first step. I mean, he is three yards deep in the backfield in an instant. And you, I mean,

40 time was excellent at the combine. But when you think about 40 times for defensive linemen, You have to look at that 10-yard split because that's just the initial burst off the line. You know, Brian Burns is a, he picks up speed. He's a long strider that gets fast by the end. Montess Sweat had a 1.5 second 10-yard split at 6-6-260 pounds. That's crazy. That is just the type of stuff you rarely see.

And I just remember watching Ford at Auburn and his best way of getting to the quarterback and it's a deceive simple, but it matters, is just being passed an offensive tackle within the first half a second that the play starts. and that's what I saw with sweat a decent amount. He's just in the backfield instantly. And when you can do that at 6 foot 6, it really matters. So I don't know. I understand all the traits with him.

I don't think he's that fluid when, again, at the top of the rush, he doesn't bend as well as a 6-6 guy needs to to me. I think that the counters aren't necessarily there. I completely understand the package and what it looks like, but I definitely have some concerns about him. Yeah, I do too. And to me, again, it's an upside thing. So he's shown some ability to kind of do a hump move.

Because of that, like he said, that first step burst, you get, you get offensive tackles kind of on their heels and oversetting to the outside a little bit. If he could more develop that inside hand hump move where you just kind of throw guys past the pocket, I think he could be potentially dominant. The Reggie White Memorial hump move. Exactly. I mean, obviously he's a different body type. but like that first step burst where you get offensive tackle kind of too far outside and then just throw him out of the way. I think that has a lot of potential. He's already got a pretty good like stiff arm, you know, the stab bull rush move or whatever.

And so I just think there's a lot of potential there. Like a lot of pass rushing prospect like evaluation is like what can they turn into because there's just so raw at the college level. It's just an extremely difficult position to evaluate. So for me, the idea is that sweat has immense upside just based on those traits in his length. All right, Danny. Are you ready? Are you ready for a unit of Brian Burns? Let's do it because I think he's going to be good.

We don't have to. I've come around. I've come around. Oh, man. That's funny. I've come around. All right. So what do you see? Tell me about him. So I was having a conversation with somebody who I respect,

just about, that I respect as evaluator about prospects. And we were talking about how you can be too tall to play certain positions. And obviously, Oh, Jesus Christ, you called somebody up to talk about your, your hobby horse that people are just too tall? He brought it up. Yeah, okay. Okay.

So I, we were talking about, this is like a Tyler Durdin thing. You're going to find out that you were talking to yourself the whole time. So obviously the quarterback thing is the joke aspect of that. But for me, I think the same can be true for pass rushers. And I think the same can be true for wide receivers because you don't have the flexibility and you don't have the change of direction. And you look at Brian Burns and you see that huge frame.

But what me and this person were talking about was just the idea that it doesn't matter if you're 6'6, if you can play like you're 6' foot. And what I meant there is that if you, can bend and be flexible to the point where you can put your inside shoulder on the ground and play underneath and gain leverage, then it doesn't matter if you're 6-6. Then being 6-6 becomes an advantage because of the levers. And watching Brian Burns, he's so much more flexible and he is so much better bend than most 6-foot, 6 pass rushers would have. And that allows him to be a guy that can beat you around the corner as well as be a change or direction guy and use that

length. And I see that with him. And that's why I think that he can be really good. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's exactly like my position on him. It's, it's, there's obviously the question about his weight. He came into the combine at 249. So that's, that's a big win for him. If he can keep that on, I think that's really huge. But to me, what I always saw was very smooth, very explosive athlete, who also can just contort his body in ways that you just don't see from guys that size typically. I mean, And there was, I don't know if I even talked, I might have already talked about this on our pod, but there was one play where he was just celebrating. And he started doing like this like crab walk. And he basically almost like put his face to the ground while he was celebrating.

I mean, he is like incredibly flexible. And so, you know, I just think that is going to be huge for him. He's got a few really good moves in the sense that you can use his hands to discard blocks and all that. but like he's like sweat to me in the sense that you have to project him to the pro game I think he's got a ton of potential his upside is through the roof he's maybe a little bit riskier just based on the weight that he played in college but like I just think he has crazy upside so I really like I'd rather have him

than sweat like yeah that's fair I got him ranked higher than sweat too so I'm with you on that yeah I would definitely rather have him I watch that Miami me game this morning. And the strips sack he had coming off the right side, it was just like, I had an audible reaction. I was like, oh my God. I mean, it was just the burst and again, the bend and just the

presence of mind to go for the ball. I really do like him. There was a clip during the combine where he was doing just some of the drills. And he was like, they had him doing back pedal and, you know, flip his hips and change direct. He looked like a safety. He was like running around the way

that he was able to kind of like turn and change direction and just explode it from a from a dead stop i think it was like wow this guy he just looks it's just effortless for him so yeah i'm really excited about him that i this is your guy you've been on him forever kind of it yeah he kind of is i really hope that he succeeds because you were definitely early and you deserve this one buddy all right so let's uh let's get to a guy who i don't particularly like that i wrote about today probably i would say it maybe the most polarizing player at this position, maybe one of the most polarizing players in the entire draft.

And that's Rashon Gary from Michigan. He was the number one recruit in the country when he came to Michigan in 2016. He was just an unbelievably celebrated recruit kind of marked a turning of the page for that entire program that they could land him and just did not produce at a high level in college. He had nine and a half sacks in his entire career at Michigan, never dominated consistently, but people think he might be a top 10 type talent just because of his athleticism. He goes to the combine. He dominates every single drill. At 277 pounds, he tested better than Bradley Chubb in every single possible category while weighing almost 10 pounds more. I mean, by the way he

tests, the way he looks, all that stuff, he's a top 10 pick. And then I watch him play. And I'm just not impressed. Am I missing something? Or do you think he also is just being overrated because of the type of athlete and recruit and pedigree that he is. Yeah, no, I'm with you exactly pretty much. I think I've got number 31 on my list, which kind of just points to his upside. Again, it's projecting upside. I think he's an extraordinary athlete, clearly. He's got like the exact right sort of dimensions.

He's like a muscular, you know, he's got that build, the physical build where he can play inside too, like where a sweat is not going to play inside. He's just too leggy or whatever, but he could potentially bounce down and, you know, you know, rush off at three or something like that. So I think he's got a ton of potential, but like I'm like you, when I watch the tape, it's just literally boring.

There's just, he's just, you know, he'll run past the pocket. He'll have that good burst off the line, but then kind of just doesn't do anything with it. You know, he just still has to kind of develop his past rush moves,

his plan. I guess, you know, I don't really see a ton of bend at the top of his rush either. So like there's, there's definitely some, major concerns with him. I just don't, I never really saw the top five hype. I don't know if he definitely has that anymore. I think he probably more realistically will go somewhere in the teens,

but there's a potential he is a top 10 pick for like certainly. I think, you know, team, like, for whatever reason, the NFL seems to be really, really high on this guy. What I don't understand, you said, like, you don't see much bend at the top of the route. There are, most of the time when I watched him, I watched three games yesterday. He doesn't even try to get around tackles. He doesn't even try to beat them around the corner. He just tries to run straight through their chest. He has that long arm that he uses, and the long arm's an amazing move. I wrote about this today, but it's an amazing move when it's the counter off your speed rush,

because then the guy's off balance and you're essentially knocking him over. It's what Khalil Mack does all the time. But if you're never a threat to try to beat a guy around the edge and he's just sitting there waiting for your bull rush, the long arm doesn't matter. It's not a plan, and he rarely has a plan. And that's why I just don't like him. So we have that he is a guy who you're projecting because of traits. And I think the other guy that people would accuse me or anyone having this conversation of being in a similar mode that I'm higher on, you'd say why is that Oliver.

But when you look at Oliver's production, you can see the reasons for why he wasn't more productive from a sack basis. His tackles for loss are where you want them. You know, it's 16, 17 a year. He's disruptive. Disruption is production when it comes to defensive linemen, even if you're not getting sacks. And Oliver does that. Also, he was a nose tackle. With him, it makes sense to me that he doesn't have those eye-popping numbers

because the way he was used. With Rishon Gary, there are no reasons that he doesn't have those eye-popping numbers unless there's a lingering injury I don't really know about. And I think that's something that people have said. So I have much more, I'm much more cautious and much less bullish on him than I am about at all. Yeah, I think he did have an injury this last season that kind of was nagging for him. So that could be a potential

reason. But I mean even like his whole college career I think is kind of just like underwhelming in terms of the production. So yeah, when like early, early on in the process, you hear so much about Rishan Gary and then you turn on the tape and I for whatever reason I was just, I just don't

see what people are so excited about. I think the NFL is definitely you know, over the moon about his athletic potential and that potentially could be kind of clouding the fact that he just wasn't very productive at all. And so to me, that's a huge, huge red flag.

But again, I do think he's probably going to go in the top 15 somewhere. And it's going to be fascinating to see kind of how he develops. Because like you said, I think he is actually the most polarizing player in this draft. Certainly the most polarizing pass rusher in this draft. Well, Kevin brought this up earlier in the show when we're talking about receivers. It's about not taking a guy high because you can get something comparable later. And when I watch for Sean Gary, if you think he's going 15, every time I watch Michigan,

both this year and when I was looking at the tape, the pass rush around that team that jumps out to you is Chase Vinovich. He's just better. He's a better player. And we're running out of reasons why he shouldn't be drafted high. He's one of the most productive pass rushers

in the country for the last two seasons. And he tested very well. The list of guys that have run, I think Mike Renner had this second time his name has come up on this show. Good job, Mike Renner. He had a list of the guys that have a bachelor contestant.

Bachelor contestant Mike Ryan. Bachelor contestant Mike Roder. He's probably appeared on probably a wider variety of pods, his name, than a lot of people. Yeah. And he had a list of guys that had run sub 4-6 with a sub-7-3 cone at 260 pounds or 250 pounds or maybe 260 or more. And the list was like Brian Arlocker, Justin Houston, DeMarcus Ware. I mean, just guys that are Hall of Fame players. Leighton Van der Wendresch was on there.

I mean, guys that have been successful early, and his 20-yard shuttle was in the 95th percentile, his three cone was in the 90th. There are, you have no reasons to not want this guy. He's more productive. His motor is constant. He's relentless. Yeah.

And he tests well. So I just think that if I can get Chase Vinovich with a 40-second pick, I would much rather do that because I think you get comparable or better results and return than you would from picking Rishan Gary with the 15th pick. yeah absolutely i i'm with you on that 100% i mean um this is like the easiest comparison ever but because of his long flowing hair i just always was reminded of clay matthews when i was watching him i there are different players but yeah i was trying to get the cop this morning and i just couldn't land on one the one that i had and this might seem weird but they're built in a really similar way

he kind of reminds me of sean phillips they're both like 6-3, 255, 260, they play hard, they got that kind of back interior counter move that they go to. It's not perfect, but it's the best one that I could land on because I had a hard time thinking about a player that he reminded me of. Yeah, absolutely. He's, I think, going to be like that day two guy that people are going to get really excited about for sure,

because, I mean, like you said, his motor is just out of, like, insane. And he's just constantly going, never stops. It actually reminds me a little bit of just watching Nick Bosa, the way he plays with his hair on fire. He's constantly going. I think they both have that really, really high motor that works for them really well. So he's definitely kind of a day two guy to keep an eye on. I wrote about this.

When I was writing about it, I used high motor. And I was like, he got to slap with that tag. And Meg Schuster, who's editing, my piece was like, is that a bad thing? And I was like, no, it's not a bad thing. but the connotation usually is that if you play that hard, it's because you're trying to mask not being a good athlete. And he's not.

He's a really good athlete. So it's kind of this weird thing. Like when we talk about high motor guys, it's usually because they can't move the way we want them to, but he's not that guy. He's not at all. He really does get, he ticks those boxes athletically.

And that's why I just would feel good about drafting him. So yeah. So to contrast that, I actually think this is an interesting discussion because I think both Bosa and Winnevich are, very high motor guys. And I think one of the things that kind of concerns me a little bit about Burns is he doesn't seem like a high motor guy. He's almost a little laxadaisical at times. And so it's up to coaching to kind of get guys to play with a higher motor. But like having that

floor is like a guy who's going to give you 100% maximum effort on every snap. I think that's obviously it's a huge, huge thing. It's a very good thing to have to. But a lot of times it's use as a pejorative. Just because, like you said, it's like if a guy is a bad athlete, oh, he's got a high motor. So I think it's for those two guys, it's a huge, huge advantage. And while we just saw Michigan very briefly, because I don't think we're going to get to the linebackers because there are only two. Devin Bush is a guy who has a high motor and is a really good athlete and just plays

like a missile constantly, whom I love. So he's so fun. That's my last point. He's amazing. I love watching him. All right, D.K., I think that's all we got, buddy. we will be back next week with another position group with some more chatter about the draft

and thank you so much for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network. We'll be back next week.