The Ringer NFL Show - The Daniel Jones Era Is Upon Us, the Aging QB Fallout, and Jalen Ramsey’s Future | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: September 19, 2019

Daniel Jones, Mason Rudolph, and Teddy Bridgewater (we think) are in, and the old guys are out (1:25). Then this week's Take Shop on Eli Manning’s future, the biggest three games of the week, Cam Newton’s career trajectory, and more (31:00). Host: Robert Mays, Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, it's Liz Kelly, and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. We hope you enjoyed listening to Break Stuff, The Story of Woodstock 99 on Luminary. Now continuing with our 99 theme, I wanted to let you guys know we've got all new episodes of the rewatchables 1990 starting back up right now. Since we've returned, we have rewatched eyes wide shut and election, and up next is never been kissed and many more 1999 classics. So make sure to check out the Rewatchables 1999 on Luminary. This is the Ringar NFL show. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin. Kevin, how you doing, buddy?

This is bordering on a special episode because we were just going to let that, the great live show we had in Atlanta City, we were going to let that ride for this week. Then there was so much news that we were forced to record a special episode. I probably wasn't going to let it ride anyway. We only have 16 weeks of the season.

I mean, there's a lot to talk about. Even beyond all of the quarterback news that we're going to get to at the top of the show today, there's some player trade news, some potential trade news. Injuries are always a thing. I feel like there are some games we would have wanted to talk about. You would have had to throw a pretty convincing argument at me for us not to do this. Well, we don't have to because we are buried under news.

Eli Manning, Jalen Ramsey, Drew Breeze. Everything broke after our live show. So let's start with something that you essentially wrote about this week, which is that this era of quarterbacks, this forever quarterback group that we have, kind of come to know for a very long time. Very, very long time. It may be coming to an end. And the reason that we say that is because three of those guys are going to be out for

part of, if not all of this season. Eli Manning is headed to the bench. Drew Breeze is out for about six weeks with thumb surgery. And Ben Rothesberger is going to IR. We knew about the injuries to Rothesberger and Breeze before we, when we recorded on Sunday. We did not know the severity of those injuries. So let's start with Eli Manning. My reaction to this was mostly that I want to,

to see how Giants fans kind of dealt with it emotionally. From a football level, this is not surprising to me. It's the right choice. It's a choice that should have happened years ago. And it gives the Giants the best chance to win moving forward. Right. So I think there was a trial on for this two years ago

when he was benched for Gino Smith, which was handled very, very poorly, very unceremoniously. And I actually think this was kind of unceremoniously. When you think about the ways that the Giants framed this, it really didn't seem like a situation where Daniel Jones could be starting week three. Now, we know, you and I both know this,

that the sort of red shirt quarterback thing is mostly dead unless you have an awesome starter. Or an awesome team. Or an awesome team. And I think that, you know, the difference between Alex Smith and Eli Manning, when the Giants were talking about the Kansas City model, quote-unquote, is that Alex Smith at that point

was significantly better player than Eli Manning is right now. And the other part of that is that Andy Reid system was going to make a, lot of quarterbacks look really good. And then also, they just didn't need to go. There was no desperation in Kansas City that year. And now none of those things are true in New York. And, you know, I don't, I'm not super encouraged into the situation Daniel Jones being put in.

But I guess there was no other option. There was a real, real sense of desperation there. Yeah. I think with the Giants right now, when their receivers get healthy, I think it can be okay for him. And that's why I think it's worth doing. the argument to me against putting in your young quarterback is if you think you're putting him into a situation, it's actively going to hurt him and is actively going to hurt his development. When it comes to the Giants' offense, I don't think that's the case.

I think their offensive line is fine. They've spent so much on it. I don't think it's an actively terrible group anymore. And I feel like they're receiving core when the players are there. It's underwhelming, and I think that the Golden Tate trade doesn't make sense, all of that. But Sterling Shepard, Golden Tate, Evan Ingram, and Saquan Barkley is something that you can work with. The problem for the Giants moving forward in terms of their 2019 hopes is their secondary. Yeah, I mean, they can't stop anybody.

But if you're talking about Daniel Jones's long-term development, I feel like getting him reps right now, seeing what you have, and allowing him to operate as a starter for as long as possible, is the right choice. I think it was the right choice coming into the year. Yeah, they're going to lose a bunch of games as matter who the quarterback is. Exactly. So I don't know. I'm kind of agnostic to the idea of like, oh, you want the quarterback to build confidence you want to lose games early.

I don't really, I mean, you know, Peyton Manning was like crap is his rookie year and threw a bunch of interceptions, lost a bunch of games, then became one of the best passers in history. So I don't, I think there's a million different ways to look at that. I just think you get this guy the reps

and get him in there and start and start the process because you have to go all in on him. I have to see what you need to see out of him. And so I, you know, again, the whole thing in Giantsland very strange to me, what this team was like going forward. A couple of weird sort of off-the-field things. Did you see the, did you see the NJ.com story about Dave Gettlement, about the Redskins?

Did you see this? No. So basically, Daryl Slater did a great job and went down to Washington and just got Landon Collins and Josh Norman to just talk about Dave Gettlement because they were both released by him and or let go by him. And it was quite, quite ugly. Josh Norman said, quote, every time I see him, I really want to smash their face in the grass.

Is he talking about the giants or Gettleman from when he uses there? No, I know. I think that he's talking about Gettleman. They never felt like Gettelman gave them their dignity. I don't, there's nothing in this quote to suggest he's talking about anything other than anything. But he's talking about the, he was, he was, let go from the Panthers. So I wouldn't. Oh, that's right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then Landon Collins said no dignity at all. I didn't know he called him a liar he lied to everybody so that's a man I do not trust I would hope nobody else would too so we've got that that's interesting uh Mike Francesa no longer gets to do the Pat Shermer show as of today I don't know if you saw that because uh fantastic Francesa was kind of poking the bear a little bit and the Giants said you don't get Pat Shermer anymore which you listen I like Pat Shermer as a person but I don't if Pat Shermer wanted to do the Pat Shermer show in the ringer NFL show I think we would politely decline You know, though, you've lost the Giants contingent or the old school Giants contingent

when you don't have Mike Francesa in your quarter anymore. That's when you know. Yeah, but he, I mean, he was going at them for a while. It's more about just the fact that this is just going to get worse and worse and worse. And even if Daniel Jones shows some promise, they're not going to win games. Yeah, it's going to be a brutal season. If this is it for Eli Manning, before we wrap this up, how are you going to think about Eli Manning. I know you, I know you don't care about the Hall of Fame. I know you could not care

less about that. To me, it's just an absurd argument that Eli Manning should be in the Hall of Fame. That means that Julian Edelman should be a first ballot Hall of Famer if the same arguments hold, which I just don't think is true. I think the defense won them those Super Bowls. It's just ridiculous to me. It was two throws. The guy has never been a top five quarterback in the NFL. Never made an all protein. Never made an all protein. He's never been a top five quarterback. I think you'd struggle to find season where he's been a top eight quarterback. Those guys, you just can't, you should not be on the Hall of Fame if that's the case. You should be a player that has defined your position for the time that you were in the league.

And he did not do that. If he hadn't beaten the Patriots in those Super Bowls, we wouldn't even be talking about this. Well, yeah, but I, I will, listen, I am as interested in the whole picture of a career as anybody. I am usually very measured, but I think it's sort of weird to just say if he hadn't won the Super Bowls who wouldn't be talking about it because I think that's true of a lot of people.

For most people, it's the tiebreaker. If you're close to getting in and you won a couple times, that's what puts you over the top. I don't think he's close to getting in. If we're putting Eli Manning in the Super Bowl or in the Hall of Fame for that 2007 Super Bowl, let's put Justin Tuck in.

It just makes no sense to me. I know we treat quarterbacks differently, but it's so silly. The defense stopped the 2007 Patriots in that game. Eli Manning made one or two throws. That is not, to me, what a Hall of Fame resume is made on. No, I agree. But also, the Hall of Fame is just full of guys who won a bunch of Super Bowls

and maybe we're not the best dominant players of their era. The tendency in Hall of Fame, unfortunately, in the NFL Hall of Fame, at least, is to just say, okay, this guy played 10 years on a dominant team, which is throw them in there. Now, I think that that's going to change going forward and has the last couple of years. But I think that there's, I'm, my worry is that there's,

there's no way to stop this when you look at just how voters tend to treat things like this. The panel. All right. Let's get, let's get to a guy who is certainly going to be in the Hall of Fame. And that is Drew Breeze. Breeze set to miss six weeks. A couple of rough ones for the Saints over that stretch to start it off.

Obviously, they have Seattle now, which is not an easy win. We saw Seattle play well over the, yeah, relatively well over the last couple of, weeks. They have the Cowboys on Sunday night football the week after that. That's certainly not an easy win at this point. After that, though, they get the bucks, the Jaguars, the Bears, and the Cardinals. I think all of those four are winnable with Teddy Bridgewater. What kind of expectations do you have with the Saints and Teddy Bridgewater? Do you think they can stay afloat in the NFC if Drew Breeze does

miss a month and a half? I want to take a second here to praise the New Orleans Saints who did two things. Number one, they built an offense around Drew Breese. Yep. And they understood that his connect with Michael Thomas and Alvin Kumar and all these guys are something you need to build around, right? But they also planned on the fact that they had a 40-year-old quarterback. They had the highest paid back up in the league in Teddy Bridgewater. They had Taysam Hill doing Taysam Hill things, which for better or worse is a type of plan, even if it's not a good plan. So I think it's kind of instructive what they did as far as just saying, okay, we've got this plan, which is we have one of the best quarterbacks in history, one of the best receivers

in the NFL, one of the best running backs in the NFL, and we're going to build an offense around that. But we're also going to just remind ourselves of the fact that old guys get hurt. That's what they do. And that, I think, is an important team-building lesson. And I think that I'm with you. I think that the Saints have a chance to sort of stay afloat the next couple of weeks. I'm obviously worried about that Cowboys game, but then obviously the bucks, the Jaguars,

maybe not having Jalen Ramsey, the Bears, that's a win. the Cardinals, that's a win. And so, you know, when I think about just... I'm not saying the Bears are a win. I'm saying they can beat the Bears at Teddy Bridgewater. I was doing that to make fun of you. I was trying to make you upset. I was trying to make you upset.

Did I work? The Bears' defense is still very good. That's all I'll say. Okay. Well, I've seen the Bears offense. So have I. You can't get bailout roughing the passer calls and then a 53-yard field goal every week, buddy. You certainly can't.

The two things, I... We're on the exact same page. I'm sorry, to finish my point is the division does not look like what we thought it was going to look like. The Panthers are on the verge, strangely of a lost season. I have no idea what's going on there. The Falcons look okay, and they could be pretty good. So I think that if you, this is not going to be the sort of you have to win fortune games one of the division division that we thought.

No, it's not. And with the NFC South being a little bit weaker, and even with kind of that second tier of NFC teams being a little bit, more in question. You know, are the Vikings going to be very good? Or the Bears are going to be very good. Right now, I feel like the teams out pencil in for the wild card are probably Seattle and the Cowboys or Seattle and Philadelphia.

So can the Saints stay afloat in that group if they don't necessarily keep pace with Atlanta and the NFC South? Their best bet at this point is probably to win the division based on the strength of other teams everywhere. But also, we played two games. And it's really hard to discern that. But I do think that they have the talent elsewhere. We're on the exact same page when it comes to the Bridgewater.

I think the trade for him last August showed an incredible amount of foresight and understanding this is what we need to do to have a contingency plan. Convincing him to come back and making him the highest paid backup is helpful, but he could have started in Miami. Yep. And the idea that they have the locker room, the culture, just the winning atmosphere in that building to be able to retain guys on that sort of lesser deal, that's impressive to me.

I think when teams can swing those deals, it can make a huge difference when you're starting to fill out the margins of your roster. And backup quarterback is an important part of those margins. It reminds me, I've written this, but Jeffrey Lurie told me once, right after a couple months after the Super Bowl, that they don't even call it a backup quarterback. They just call it the second quarterback because eventually they're going to play. And if you view it that way, I mean, look, they made a serious commitment to Nick Foles a couple of years ago.

They won the Super Bowl because of it. And, you know, that's just sort of how this works, unless you have Tom Brom, Brady as starter and, you know, obviously even even Garapolo and Brissette got to play although not through injury, you're probably going to have a second quarterback playing. I think that's, that's an interesting lesson for everybody. Let's get to Ben Rathesberger because I think that ties into another piece of news about the Steelers this week. So Rathsberger going to injured reserve with that elbow injury, a bizarre elbow injury.

I cannot remember a quarterback going to IR with a non-contact throwing injury. Can you? I'd have to think about it. I don't remember, but I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of what landed everybody on Yeah, nothing jumps out to me. So the Rothesberger thing becomes complicated for a couple of different reasons. They give him that two years, $68 million extension next season. He has $25 million in dead cap next year.

So if he can't play next year, if this is a Tommy John sort of situation, and we're looking at an Alex Smith-type timetable where he has to miss all of next season, that's brutal for this team. Because you have to hold his cap number, and after trading for Mickah Fitzpatrick, you no longer have a first round pick. So while Washington,

it wasn't in their plans to draft a quarterback in the first round after signing Alex Smith, his injury necessitated that they do it. They were able to get Haskins 15th and kind of start whatever their next step was. Pittsburgh can't do that. I understand the arguments for

for trading for Fitzpatrick. He's a really talented player. You're paying him next to nothing because the Dolphins have paid a signing bonus already. All of that makes sense to me. But I do think that when there's a chance you bottom out this season, and I do think there is.

Mason Rudolph, there's no way to know. Now, less stuff is on the table for them when it comes to their next plan. I get both sides of it, but I also think it's a considerable risk. yesterday when we're filming slow newsday I kept saying Mason Rudolph Jason Gallagher kept saying Mason Randolph

and Richie Bozick kept saying Mason Ramsey just wanted to throw that out there as far as the name recognition of this new Steelers quarterback I was... My favorite Mason Rudolph thing is that his vertical leap at the NFL Combine was 26 inches

Hey, what do we think I'll resist? I know mine was higher than that when I was younger What is it now? I don't care about what it is then. Jesus, now I have no idea. It's not 26 inches. Okay. So, I'm just saying, for an NFL quarterback, it's really funny. It's in the bottom fifth percentile. It was less than like 28 offensive tackles at the combine this season. I hear you. It's fine. It doesn't matter at the position. When I was just looking at it

yesterday, I was like, wow, this guy is not an athlete. This is kind of funny. So, uh, you start to think about what the Steelers think they are. And I'm intrigued by this. I saw a statute the day that basically the Steelers have had a first round pick every year since like the late 60s or something. Like it's just, the things they don't do are make coaching changes and trade the first round pick, okay? Or trade up?

Or trade up? Like they different Devin Bush this year. Right. And so they probably think they have a better roster than we do. They probably think that Mason Rudolph can sort of be in a position where he can use the talent around him

and the defense and accelerate that learning curve. Is there anything that we've seen over the first two months? weeks that should lead us to believe that. I don't think so. But I'm just saying the disconnect between what we think and what Kevin Colbert, Mike Tomlin probably think. It seems pretty massive as far as that goes.

So I don't know. I mean, I honestly do not know what the Steelers are doing here. Maybe it's like a second coming of Patrick Mahomes and they all saw Mason Rudolph in practice and realized that he was, you know, he's going to be great or something. I don't know. But what I do know is that right now, I think that Manka Fitzpatrick first round pick with that team is an overpay. I agree with you if they bought them out and all of a sudden they lost a fifth overall pick or something, that's a disaster.

It's, this is not a move I would make. It's, I understand the arguments for it when you say, well, they're not taking a quarterback anyways. It's stuff like that. But I just feel like taking that stuff off the table is dangerous. Making those decisions in September is a fool's errand because we have no idea. We have no idea how much time Rathesberger is going to miss. Are there going to be complications with his surgery in March? Stuff like that.

It's just so hard to know. The guy's 37 years old. So that part of it and also is there hope that this team can get better with Fitzpatrick on the back end, you know, as their younger players and the secondary start to figure things out, maybe. But Terrell Edmonds is in year two. I get that Devin Bush is a rookie, but part of my concerns about that defense are how these players are being deployed.

I mean, they just look lost right now on the back end. The way. And are the weapons going to get any better? Right. I mean, we say that maybe they're, you. they can trust this talent around them offensively, but is there that much talent around them offensively right now? Yeah.

The answer is no. Right. The way I view trading a first round pick for anybody is, I think you only do it if you think you're one player away from real contention. This was my argument when the Saints drafted and traded up for Marcus Davenport, right? You know, did they think that Marcus Davenport was the one player stand between them and the Super Bowl? apparently they did. Obviously, that didn't work out. Some of those things were beyond its control, but then obviously

Davenport hurt for a lot of the year, and then obviously the screw job in New Orleans happened. But that's besides a point, okay? It's a very narrow situation. But if you're... It's a good example, though. Yeah. If you're the Texans and you think Laramie Me Tunsell will win you the Super Bowl, the only problem was left tackle, then, I don't know, is two first round picks for the Super Bowl appropriate?

sure. The problem is, of course, is that it's not actually going to work. That is when you trade a first round pick, when you say we can win the Super Bowl now. I honestly think that the Colomac trade was good in that regard because it showed you last year if it wasn't for a double doink that Colomac really was the type of player who could make them go from good to great. And I don't think there's a lot of players like that. I think he's a rare case. I think Jalen Ramsey might be. I think in the right situation he might be one of those players. but I just, I don't think Micka Fitzpatrick is, and I certainly don't think it is in this situation. All right.

So let's get to take shop because mine relates to this. I think that Jalen Ramsey, so the Larry Meantle trade is one of those deals where every other executive around the league is like, fuck me, right? Really? You're going to do this? And now every player I try to trade for

is going to have to be worth two firsts and a second. It drives executives nuts when that stuff happens, when people just completely shift the market for players. So even if the tonsile trade didn't happen in this hypothetical, I think that Jalen Ramsey would be worth two first round picks for the right team. And to me, that right team is the chiefs. Because it's the MAC trade is a good thing to bring up. Because I agree with you in a way where he's such a great player and he's one of maybe the five, six best players in the NFL period that maybe you can rationalize doing it.

He unlocked the defense. They were the best defense in the NFL. they were definitely a contender, all of that. The problem, though, when you're the Bears, even if you're going all in on your quarterback, which I think you should, if that quarterback is not the right guy, you're going to be in the situation you're in right now,

where the Bears need a new quarterback, most likely, and they don't have a first round pick next year to get one. The Chiefs are not almost possibly in that scenario unless the Mahomes gets hurt and then it's over anyway. if he's healthy, there is no reasonable reality, no reasonable projection where they have a high first round pick. And this could be the player that unlocks their Super Bowl chances. So I understand that no players were two first round picks unless he's a quarterback, most likely, in a vacuum. But I do think that for the right team, with the right quarterback, with the right outlook, you can rationalize two first round picks for Jalen Ramsey in a way that you can't for most players.

most teams in the league. Brett Veach has never made a first round pick. They've traded those things away a lot. And that's why it's difficult because you don't have a second round pick next year because you already traded one away in the car trade and you trade your first round pick away. So eventually you're not going to have any homegrown talent. Can I ask you a question?

Sure. Don't you think that going all in on Patrick Mahomes of all people right now is slightly short-sighted because he's going clearly be so good for so long, that maximizing that window is really important. He's going to get very, very, very expensive. And I understand that. I understand the necessity to do that. But you already traded for Frank Clark. Already brought in the Honey Badger. Obviously, you traded, you know, a first round pick to get him in the first place. If you keep going all in on him, don't you really limit yourself in your six and seven of Patrick Mahomes,

not getting a high draft pick every single year? That's my only devil's advocate here. I think that's a good argument. The other argument to me does have to deal with the money. Because obviously, we know the cap is fake, everything else. But the Chiefs have already done this before. They already did this off season. They made the big trade and traded a first round pick

only to have to give that guy a massive extension. And that's what happened with Frank Clark. Frank Clark's cap hit this year is tiny. It's $6.5 million. Next year, it jumps to $22.7. The Chiefs right now, as it stands, have $2.3 million in cap space. And they don't have that many logical cuts to make. Daniel Sorensen is probably one of those guys.

Cam Irving is probably one of those guys. It saves them about $6 million overall in space. There aren't a lot of other players on the roster that you can get rid of without big dead money. hits. Anthony Hitchin's contract is a disaster. He's 12.7 million in dead money next year if they cut him because they restructured him this offseason and get some cap space. You can absolutely restructure Sammy Watkins-based salary, Tyron Matthews, both of them have more than $11 million. If you want to convert that in a bonus, there's a way to find the money. But when you consider

that the Mahomes extension is coming and you probably have to pay Chris Jones next offseason or at least franchise it, it gets pretty dicey, pretty quick. So that's one thing to take into consideration. Having to give Ramsey the massive record-setting corner contract pretty much as soon as you sign him is definitely the argument to me that's against it. And I agree. I think your argument stands as well because you're going to be good for a long time. Do you want to have no homegrown high premium talent in the pipeline? That's my thought.

I think that the all-in move is Frank Clark. I don't think you can go all-in or maybe. I don't know. I mean, Kansas City's never won a Super Bowl. Do we think that the fan base and the front office and ownership and the coaching staff and all that would trade one Super Bowl this year for maybe a couple of years with a lull, maybe two years out, of Patrick Mahomes' career? I think the answer is yes.

I tend to agree. I tend to agree. I think the answer is yes. And I also feel like we can't, you can't assume. But think about what we would have said about Andrew Luck, right? Right. They're going to be good forever. And that's just not how it happens.

I know that it's a different situation and he was getting destroyed even early in his career. But I don't think you can say we know we're going to be good for a decade. I also feel like you have to acknowledge that this is your best chance to win one because he's so cheap. Even if you think you can win one in the future. And I think a really good model right now is what Seattle is doing. We can pay our guy. We can start over with the rest of the roster and we can still be good because of how good that guy is. but their best chance was still

when Russell Wilson was making way less than Russell Wilson should. And I think that's the argument for why a trade like the Ramsey one makes sense even if it really puts you in a tough spot in other areas. Yeah, listen, I don't know the answer. And I also think that going all in on one year when you have a guy like Mahomes is slightly risky

because this is a game of injuries. And, you know, you could trade for a bunch of guys and all of a sudden Mahomes gets injured and you're screwed. I cannot... I'm glad I don't have to make the decision about whether or not you play the long game with Patrick Mahomes and just maximize his window for 10, 15 years, or just try to win the Super Bowl, do everything you can to mortgage your future, because that's what it is, to win the Super Bowl this year. I don't know the answer. Who else do you think is on the table here that would make sense? For Ramsey. For Ramsey.

So I saw a tweet a little bit about the teams that were in on them. One of them was Baltimore. Yeah, I mean, Jimmy Smith has a grade two knee sprain. he's going to be out for a little while. Multiple weeks is how John Harbaugh framed it. It's not season ending, but that's a secondary that we expected to be the best of the NFL. You don't trade two first round picks

because your cornerback has a grade two knee sprain. I'll tell you that. I feel like that's about his long-term projection. I got you. I think that's more about them not thinking he'll be around for much longer after this. So here's the list via Josina Anderson. Teams that have made substantial inquiries.

It's Jimmy Smith is the last year of his contract. Kansas City, Baltimore, Minnesota, Oakland. You got to be kidding me. Philadelphia, Seattle. Now, we don't know. The teams we always mentioned in this conversation. But we also don't know if it's just, that's just Hallie Roseman and John Schneider trying to be value gods and just being like, you know, take a second for them.

You just don't know. I mean, like that is substantial inquiries doesn't mean they offered a first round pick. But with Seattle, doesn't it make a lot of sense? I think with Philly, it's tough just based on the finances of it all. obviously there's no team in the league better at manipulating that stuff than the Eagles have been. And the Wents contract is going to look like a bargain much sooner rather than later. But I think they probably does. I know, it's ridiculous.

But the Seattle thing, I mean, this is a team with an ocean of cap space next season. Again, that's why I love the way that Seahawks have done this. They decided to tear it all down outside of their two best players. That was really it. Those are the only substantial investments they have. have. So now you have Russell Wilson, Bobby Wagner, and a blank canvas. And these are the types of moves that are on the table for you because you have no restrictions. Yep, I'm, I'm with you all the way. Justine Anderson reports that every team is placed to call or almost every team is

place to call. I do want to say, if you are an owner and you call your GM and say, have you place to call about Jalen Ramson? The answer is no, you should find a new GM. There's only one team where that's not a problem. And they've already offered six first round picks for Jaylon Ramsey. Oh, God. Could you imagine? Can I actually tell you the problem? One of the problems with the Texans is that now if you call, if you're Bill O'Brien

and you call anybody, they're going to immediately just give you a gag offer. Yeah. He's the guy in your fantasy league that you know you can take advantage of. Yeah. Oh, geez, can we get you know, 11 first round picks for him? And then Bill O'Brien thinks about it for an hour. Like, that's where you're at now for the Texans. And then you call back and get cousin Greg, and then you get the 11 first round picks.

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All right. What's your take shop? Take shop. Been thinking about it for a while now. Eli Manning should retire. Right now? I think so. As long as the money.

So he's in the last year of his contract. He's made $252 million more than anybody in the history of football. And a ton more with all those things that he's signed. All those autographs. Oh, wow. Okay. That's true. That is true. Did you have to get the money back?

I don't know. Maybe. Maybe that's the reason he won't retire. He needs the cash. He needs the cash from an autograph scandal. So he made $250 million. He had a no trade clause and there's a reason for that. I didn't want to leave New Jersey. Do we need,

you know, I saw a tweet. I apologize. I don't know who said it. But they said, Eli Manning is one of these people whose longevity He's actually hurt their legacy Like we the more he goes on as a below average quarterback The more we see him as sort of this helpless Guy who's just constantly overwhelmed Whereas he had it

You probably remember this I mean Elon Manning could just like turn it on like seven times a year And it's like oh he lies on fire and it never looked correct And you always thought it was going to end But all of a sudden he's got 410 pass and he's defeated the Patriots or whatever. Remember that regular season game where he was on fire against the Pats

in like 2011? Like that kind of stuff. His career was so bizarre in the middle where it was these terrible, terrible games. I remember that five interception game, I think. I think it was five interceptions on Thanksgiving weekend. He threw that one year. It was so up and down. Now it's just down. Oh yeah, it's all

down. So if you're him made $2 million you can go host Patent's co-host Patent's places on ESPN Plus do that kind of thing hang out

and you know I just think that there's there's a lot of opportunities for him off the field and he doesn't need to get battered he doesn't need to go play in Jacksonville doesn't need to go play in Tampa just move on

here's what I'll say to that though I think he's too good of a guy to do that what are you talking about If he's a good guy, he should just like, just hang out with your brother and your family and some huge mansion in New Jersey and play golf and like,

and go to, you know, Isidore Newman alumni events and all this stuff. I just feel like he would not want to make it about him in the middle of the season. Oh, no, no. I'm just, listen, I'm not saying he should retire on September 19th.

I'm saying that he should just never play again. He should, he should retire. higher after the season. Oh, okay. Yeah. I mean, oh, that's a given. I don't even think that's a take shop. I think that's just what should happen. What if they came to him right now and said, we're trading you to Jacksonville? I wouldn't do it. He would. I would absolutely not do it. Wait, why? If you're Eli Manning. Yes. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he isn't a trade clause. What I'm saying is to like, so there's no situation that you'd be put in. Like, what if the Saints were like,

we want Eli Manning to finish out his career in New Orleans. Maybe as the backup, though? I don't even know. I'm just trying to think of situations where he'd want to be in as a hypothetical to see if there's any place he would play. I don't see it happening. I mean, he's going to be a free agent at the end of this season. So theoretically, any team could sign him.

He would probably be available for relatively cheap when it comes to quarterbacks. I mean, in the 20 million range of the very most, I don't think he's worth that to anybody. so I don't know who'd want to do that. If the Bears were to do that, if the Chubisky thing goes awry, I would renounce my family.

You would rather have Chubisky than Eli, right? I would rather have Trubisky at $9.5 million next year than Eli at 20. Hey, I was on Will Cane show yesterday and he threw out something I thought was really interesting. If you were the Bears, what would you think if the Bears traded for Cam Newton?

I would love that. Okay. Absolutely. Cam Newton is one of the guys on the table for me. I feel like Ryan Tannahill after the season. No. I think that that's an option.

Cam Newton, Ryan Tannahall, I've already started exploring all of these things. I've already checked the numbers. I've already seen like who can they afford, who can they not? They're going to carry over like maybe $15 million in space. They could probably get to $30. Trust me. I've already done all of the math on this.

It's really problematic. That sounds very problematic. Wait a second. It's not good for my emotions. Speaking of which, I'm sorry, I did not see this. Ron Rivera, tired of Cam Newton, questions, walks out of press conference after less than two minutes. I feel like you have to answer questions about your injured quarterback.

What I'm saying is that things are going well in Carolina. Ron is not that kind of guy. Ron is one of the nicest coaches and most stand-up guys in this league. And that probably says a lot about just the, how much they don't know about Cam Newton. So we're going to get to Cam Newton here when we get to your sneaky truth a little bit later. But let's get to our biggest three games. of the week. Let's start with Ravens

Chiefs, which... Love it. It is such a perfect game as some of the old quarterback cycle out. It is a perfect game to bring in a new era of quarterbacks. I was re-watching the Ravens game yesterday, or this morning,

actually, excuse me. And these are the two offenses I like watching the most right now. And it's not... Before the season started, when I was thinking about the Ravens, I was like, oh, man, I'm excited to watch whatever gimmick it's going to be. You know, it's going to be weird. It's going to be different. I haven't seen anything like it before, all that stuff.

And then I'm watching them play against the Cardinals, especially in the first half. There's some elements to that. You know, Lamar is doing these weird spin-out naked boots where, you know, he's getting tons of yards. It's a really cool design. But a lot of the stuff they're doing isn't dissimilar to what the chiefs do. You know, when Mark Andrews' touchdown, they ran a little jet motion to the right with Marquise Brown. they put him into the flat, and then they used Mark Andrews on like a vertical route outside.

The Chiefs love doing that. They love using the running back in the flat or somebody in the flat to hit a four verts or something like that. The Ravens didn't hit this play, but they ran a vertical route to Justice Hill out of the backfield in the same way that the Chiefs like to do. I mean, these are two of the most modern offenses in the league going at it with quarterbacks that could not be playing any better than they are right now,

and I'm not sure what else you'd want to watch at this point. Yeah, you know, I really like seeing Patch Mahomes. tested. And that's sort of, you know, the live show, which I don't think has gone up yet. We talked a little bit about how how much I enjoy really good quarterbacks going against really great defense. That's one of my favorite things in football. And, you know, Shilke Potty had the staff the other day that the Ravens are third in the NFL and highest percentage of opponents dropbacks in which they got a sack or a quarterback hit. I want to talk about that in a second. Patrick, okay. Patrick Mahomes is going to be under fire from this defense. The Ravens do a lot

interesting things. I think that kind of tape Twitter is showing you all the time how many interesting things Martindale does with that defense. I'm really, really intrigued to see Patrick Mahomes in his best against his defense.

I think it's one of the matchups of the year. I totally agree. And I think that the to me the element I'm really excited about is Earl Thomas on the back end. Yep. Taking away some of those shots can he? You know, is the middle of the field just going to be completely closed off to the chiefs? How do they deal with that? You know, they're a cornerback depth issues on the Panthers, or on the Ravens, excuse me.

Because I think part of the reason they're interested in Ramsey, so do they try to attack them in that way? But getting to the sack and quarterback hit thing, coming into the year, part of the reason I was a little bit concerned about the Ravens defense compared to years past is that they didn't have as much depth or as much talent in the front seven. They lose Zedarius Smith. They lose C.J. Mosley. And then they go out and they sign Pernell McPhee for 950,000.

$30,000. His cap hit is $1 million. And this signing and his production so far is the Ravens organization in a nutshell. He leaves in 2015 and signs a five-year deal with the Bears, a deal I loved because I think Pronnell McPhee is an awesome player. Five years, 40 million. He does nothing for the Bears. That's correct. He has, he's hurt the entire time, which he had health concerns coming in. It's not, it was not shocking. So he goes to Washington last year, it does nothing. It's just kind of a, whatever. He gets signed for a million dollars. He comes in this year and so far has been what, first of all, he's starting for them. And secondly, he's one of the most productive pass rushers in the NFL through two weeks. When he left to go to Chicago, the Ravens got a fourth round compensatory pick

for him, which the Ravens stay doing. About 10 picks after that compensatory pick in the fourth round. They picks Matthew Judon, who is a fifth round pick and is also one of the most productive pass rushers in the NFL so far this season. It's unbelievable how they churn these guys out, either whether it's in-house or just retreading dudes that they had four years ago. It's just so impressive their talent development and talent accruement in the Ozzy Smith, Eric DeCosta era. And we're seeing it all over again right now. This is one of the best run organizations in the NFL. Smart teams beat dumb teams. Happens over and over and over again.

It's all that happens in football. I had a, I had an interesting talk when I was doing the Brown story, the Sashi Brown story, about with Richard Thaler who wrote a paper that then basically influenced a bunch of NFL. He won the Nobel Prize, but he also kind of influenced a bunch of NFL teams and the Browns took a liking to him and he was, he's been an advisor there. And he was saying something about quarterbacks that I found really fascinating. said that he thinks that quarterbacks are overrated for this reason. He said that the teams that tend to find quarterbacks are by definition already smart,

so they're already going to do smart things. It was like one of the weirdest mind-bending arguments that I've heard about the quarterback position, and I've been thinking about it a lot. But when you think about some of the teams that found their franchise quarterback, it was teams that already do a bunch of smart stuff. It's the chiefs. It's the Eagles. It's the Ravens.

And you started thinking about it. like, wow, that's kind of true. I mean, the Packers, smart organization. They found Aaron Rogers. A team that had to find them, had to go out of their way to find them, though. But also, but also, like, the Colts got one dropped in her lap and they screwed it up. Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah, right.

The Colts didn't do anything to get Andrew Locke. Right. So I'm saying that it was an interesting argument, but you think about Lamar Jackson, he was just there. He was there in the late first. Every team could have gotten them, and a smart team did. And smart teams continue to do smart things, because that's what smart teams do.

I think the Lamar Jackson argument is similar in a way to the Patrick Mahomes argument in that not every team would be succeeding with Lamar Jackson right now. Certainly not to this degree. So just watching what they've built around him and he's obviously improved a ton.

I mean, there are some of the throws he made. I thought he was more impressive last week against Arizona than he was the week before against the dolphins. There was just some bullets he's placing in the intermediate areas of the field, but I was like, wow. You know what I'm starting to look so good.

I'm starting to view that week one as like, you know how in college when like Miami plays like Bethune Cookman the first week or like some division one double A team like F year or like they won the year they played FAU the first week. Like it's that kind of thing and it's like, oh, okay. Well, they did that against that team. Let's see how they are against an NFL team. So I was more encouraged actually with what he did. I agree with you about what he did with the Cardinals than what he did against the Dolphins.

I also was impressed with the Cardinals in a way. I think that they looked good, especially in the second half. I think that they're a team to definitely monitor going forward. I feel like we're underrating just how terrible they were offensively last year. The fact that they're competent now and they can beat in a game with the Ravens is pretty darn impressive to me. I'm with you. What's next? All right.

Let's get to Saints Seahawks. We already talked a decent amount about Teddy Bridgewater and kind of the infrastructure there. Some specific stuff I'm looking at with this game as it relates to New Orleans and Seattle. The Saints have been dead last and run defense DVOA the first two weeks. It's really early. You know, that's a small sample size that could certainly change. It's definitely something to monitor

against a team that's going to try to run the ball at them a lot. What else? What's sticking out to you about this game? Well, I'm intrigued to see how they've changed the offense, the Saints. Yeah.

Because, you know, there was a lot of talking Saints Twitter about just how much of the offense is built around Drew Breeze's rhythm. And I'm intrigued to see sort of what they do. I'm also, I mean, the Taysom Hill thing is very, has always been strange to me.

me. I'd be concerned. But Sean Peyton sort of going out of his way to be even more mysterious. Seems like that's a little bit of like espionage work and misdirection. Yeah, I guess. They're just trying to put them off the set. Let's do Occam's razor here, right? If you're taking snaps away from Drew freaking Breeze

to give to Taysam Hill, why wouldn't you do it with Teddy Bridgewater? Like obviously, Sean Payton thinks way different than we do about Taysam Hill and the rest of the world. he'll get snaps. I just mean, I don't think it's going to be any sort of 50-50 split or 60, 40, 70, 30.

I think he'll be sprinkled in the way he always is. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. That'd be weird to me. I feel like you should just let your quarterback play. Yeah, I mean, yes, but that's especially true when Drew Breezes your quarterback. There's just so many aspects of... We've talked about this.

I've been talking about it for four years. There are some coaches who I think fantasize about having bad quarterbacks in order to scheme them up. I think that Belichick, although obviously he very much enjoys having Tom Brady on his team, I think that when he has to start a quarterback like Jacoby Brissette three years ago, kind of says, ooh, what can I do here to kind of MacGyver himself out of the situation? I think Taysam Hill is an extension of Sean Peyton's sort of, gee, what will my life be like if I didn't have Drew Brees? It's kind of a kind of a Bedford Falls.

It's a wonderful life thing, right? Like you would start doing these weird things. You would start doing, you know, Belichick keeps talking about the single wing every couple of years. is fine, whatever, he'd love to do that, but he can't. And I think that sometimes coaches creativity, especially if they're really smart coaches like Peyton and Belichick, their creativity gets the best of them sometimes. I'll be curious to see not only what they're trying to do

in terms of route types, things like that, even building it around Bridgewater's skill set from just schematic perspective, but also just the level of control that Breeze has, it's not only with protections, play call, stuff like that, but the level of control he has in the pocket. How does this affect the offensive line against a pass rush with Devin Clowny?

Things like that. The Saints have great talent up front, but I also think it's an interesting kind of experiment of how much does talent up front matter versus what your quarterback does. I wrote about that today, just how much a quarterback has control over his own pass protection.

I mean, Bridgewater was sacked twice last week after he came into that game. I understand it's the Rams and Aaron Donald, all that. But I do think you're going to see a drop off with every single member of the, offense, not just the quarterback. I completely agree with you. This is going to be an awesome game.

I'm excited. This is a good week. Yeah, this is a fun one. I think that we're going to learn a lot. I also want to see what the Seahawks offense looks like again and what the Saints end up doing against them. I think the Saints pass rush has been really good through two weeks. Hendrickson and Davenport have been nice on the other side of Cam Jordan.

So I don't feel like they'll have to blitz a lot. Last week, the Seahawks just picked apart the Steelers when they were blitzing. The Steelers are a mess on the beach. back end, but I still feel like they had a really good game plan. They had a really defined, really reliable hot route system, which is what you should have as an NFL team. Some teams, though, do not, which brings us to the Houston Texans playing the San Diego or Los Angeles Chargers. I wrote about this today. The Texans past protection issues are so frustrating and so terrible, and they have so much more to do with every aspect of that offense than they do with just

the offensive line. This team does not understand. how to pick up blitzes. And every team is going to continue blitzing them and bombard them with them until they show any capacity for stopping it. Where are we on Chargers' playoff watch? Are we out? I'm not out because I do think

they do a lot of stuff well. I'm super concerned about what's going on on the back end of the defense. The fact that KZir is now that starting corner, KC, or however you pronounce it, Adrian Phillips is now hurt, so they're having to deal with whoever on the back end

going against a team with DeAndre Hopkins and Will Fuller taking the top off the defense. That part of me, that part is concerning. If the pass rush can't get home in this game, I do think the Texans are going to have a lot of chances down the field. Other aspects of the roster, though, it's like, this team is well coached in a lot of ways. You know, the way they scheme up their running game is so impressive. It was watching the Lions game again today. And they're getting Echler and Jackson on the edge so well and kind of being able to outplay their

talent up front, which not a lot of teams can do, especially in the running game. I think that Alan and Williams, they both made ridiculous catches. I mean, this team just has a lot of talent even when they're hurt. And I do think their offense is really good schematically. So I think in an AFC where there's a lot unsettled in that second tier, I can't write them off yet, even with all the guys that are hurt. Hey, so we saw the end of Eli Manning this week. We saw potentially the end of Drew, excuse me, Ben Rathesburg.

Last 204 stars, Larry Fitz and Philip Rivers. who gives out first? Who is the last standing member of the O-4 draft class? I don't want to pick against either of those guys because they're both indestructible. But I'm telling you have to pick. I just said you have to pick. Who gives out first or who stops playing first?

That's, it's whoever taps out. It's the same thing. Who's left standing? I think Fitzger, I think, I don't know. Dude, Larry Fitz is back. He plays playing all. noticed that. He's back. He's playing awesome. And he's, I'm sure he's feeling re-energized with that offense, being able to play with

Tyler, all that stuff. He's giving me a look like maybe Larry Fitz is not back, and he's definitely wrong. Oh, he's playing well, Craig. Come on, what are you talking about? He's had like five catches of 20 yards so far. He gave an eye roll when I said Larry Fitz is back. That's not true. Yes, it is. Just no respect for Larry Fitzgerald. Great slow, Newsday guest. He's now reemerges a deep threat, and Craig has no respect for him.

It's because Craig was in like third grade in 08 when Larry Fitz was just tearing it up in the playoffs. He's still in a background. He's still there. Yeah, I think the only reason I brought this up was to proclaim Larry Fitz's back. It's awesome. But I think it's a really interesting question. I wouldn't want to bet against either of them. I do think that Philip Rivers might be immortal.

He's missed no games in his entire. As since he's become a starter, he's never missed the game. It's unbelievable. Blown ACL, just walking around with it. It's crazy. And obviously, honestly, they're going to test. it again because their offensive line situation is untenable. I know.

The way Whitney Merciless is playing right now, I mean, merciless and clownie this week are, they're going to have big days. I will say that right now. All right. Sneaky Truths. Let's get to sneaky truth and I'm going to geek out. Why don't you do sneaky truth first?

Yeah. Time to start planning for life without Cam Newton, at least start to think about it, what that era parent situation looks like. Obviously, Kyle Allen looks like he's the start of this week. Will Greer has been drafted. I just, Cam Newton, 23 million-hour cap hit this year, nothing you can do about it.

Next year, 21 million dead cap, 2 million. I don't think they're going to, let me be clear about this. I don't think they're going to cut Cam Newton. That would be very stupid. He's three years removed from being the best player in the sport.

But if he can't run, if they don't want him to run, if they're so uncomfortable with his injury situation that he's lost that dimension, then they need to figure something out very quickly, whether that's a change in offense. whether that's, you know, finding a change of pace backup,

whatever it is, they've got to figure something out. Now, long term is a different story. If he doesn't get healthy, I think you're looking at a real situation where you don't extend him. Where are you on this, Robert Mace? I think you're looking at a situation where you let him go into that lame duck in your ear next year.

That's what I'm saying. You let him go, if you have to franchise tag him, you can in 2021. And that's, we've seen that before. I don't think it's a big deal. It would be 32 years. years old at that point. I would, I, I need to see dramatic improvement from Cam Newton before I gave him a kind of regular starting quarterback contract going, going into an age 31 season. I'm curious about how much of this is the shoulder versus how much of this is the foot,

because I feel like watching him throw the ball over the first two weeks. He's thrown the ball okay in terms of velocity, stuff like that. I feel like he was actually playing well on the last Thursday before he tweaked that foot. Joe Person put up a tweet about what play he thinks he tweaked it on. You can see him kind of come up lame as he's rolling to the right and he was terrible after that play. So if it's the foot and he's going to miss two weeks, maybe we're overreacting here. I don't know if we are. I feel like his health is definitely an ongoing conversation and it's something to monitor. But if it's just the foot and he's going to be okay after that gets healthy, we'll have to see about this. I don't think, listen, I am probably a lot

higher on Cam Newton than most at this point. I still, I think his highs were as high as anybody in the league. But at some point, you know, we have all these weird reports in the offseason about just how far away he was.

Then all of a sudden he's throwing full go. And it just seems like maybe they rushed him back too soon. And maybe he was never full go and that we're seeing the remnants of that sort of lingering injury. And I think these things pile up over time. Maybe you give him just a month, just send him away.

Pulling Alex Ferguson, send him to a beach somewhere in rehab. I don't think that's a bad idea. The problem is that they're going to be out of it in a month. I mean, I don't think there's anything of this statement. Hey, I agree. If you send him away to let him heal and get his shoulder right and his foot right

and rehab all that stuff, I agree with you. But what's more important? Contending in 2019 or having a long-term starting quarterback. I think it's the latter. And that's why I don't think it's a bad idea. Yeah.

I think giving him time to get 100% healthy and making sure that foot especially is a full go. I think that's all right. I really do. I feel like that is probably the best plan here. I'm with you. All right. Let's get to My Geekin out very quickly here. I know we've talked about this a lot on this show, but the San Francisco 49ers and their ability to just scheme up these ridiculous shot plays was just so apparent last week.

And I think it will be going forward. I mean, we've seen that leak play that the Niners use that other teams have started to use now. Yeah. They did it last week with Marquis Goodwin instead of George Kittle, which is just unfair. Using that guy that's an Olympic sprinter that's wide open down the field for this like 38-yard touchdown is nuts. Other teams have used it with a receiver. You know, the Chiefs used it with Watkins. Last year, the Rams did it with a couple a little bit.

But again, it's just a nice wrinkle and an already great play design. There was one they ran. it was a screen to Debo Samuel where they put Debo Samuel in jet motion to the left and they faked a little swing to the running back to the right only to turn around

and do a screen throwback to Samuel and all five offensive linemen were in front of him on the left side and he gained 38 yards and then there was another 40-yard completion to Debo Samuel where it was 22 personnel they faked a hard play fake

they knew it was going to be single high They ran Good one on a post to get the safety away, and there's just no defenders within 20 yards in the middle of the field or where Samuel is going. I just think there's no coordinator in the league. There's no team in the league that's better at scheming up these plays. And if they're going to get four or five of these a game, and the defense is going to continue playing well,

I just think that San Francisco becomes really interesting in the NFC. Where are they right now in your picking order? I think that they're still behind Seattle and Dallas or Philly when it comes to the wild card. But is there any reason to think that they can't challenge, whether it's New Orleans, Minnesota, right in that next tier? I absolutely think if they're playing like this, then they can stay in that conversation.

Awesome. I agree with you. Anything else? Thursday night game. I sadly will not be able to watch the Thursday night game tonight. I will be taking in a very high-stress Cubs Cardinals game at Wrigley Field rather than watching Jags Titans. And I don't know.

I'm so broken up about missing Minchu. It's a rough thing. I think it's funny that Jags Titans started out as this kind of joke of a Thursday night game like five years ago.

Then it briefly got good and now we're just back to oh, Jaggs Titans, huh? I'm actually intrigued. I'm intrigued to see the Jalen Ramsey thing play out. I thought it was kind of funny the report this week

about how a team called the NFL and said can Jalen Ramsey play Thursday and Sunday if you trade for them? Evil. who was that? You know what you don't want to do if you trade a first round pick for a guy?

Play four days after he's played a game? Well, yeah, also. Three days. Also, it's also three games in eight days. That's like NBA teams don't play guys three times in eight days anymore. My God. All right, that's all we got, guys. We will be back on Sunday with our recap of week three.

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