The Ringer NFL Show - The Dominant NFC South, a Check-in With Aaron Rodgers, and Building the Best Offense | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: August 16, 2019

Previewing the Panthers, Saints, and Falcons (3:40), an update on Aaron Rodgers and Matt LaFleur from training camp (14:00), and the top players at each position to build an offense with (23:20). Hosts: Robert Mays, Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Use promo code Bringer at checkout to save 15%. We've all made some bad choices in life. I know I have. I was wearing jeans today in Jacksonville. It's 87 degrees. the heat end is like 100 and 70% humidity. It was a terrible decision. And I really regretted it.

But this isn't about me. It's about you. Don't make where you play fantasy football a bad life decision. Play Yahoo! Fantasy Football. Yahoo offers up free expert advice that's the best player experience, and they'll never delete your league history, like other apps will. Yahoo also has all kinds of fantasy games like the new best ball, just draft and you're done.

No trades, no waivers, no drama all season. Yahoo is the number one rated app by the FSGA. Make better choices. Choose Yahoo! Fantasy Football. For the Ringar NFL show, I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark. Kevin, how you doing, buddy? I am doing great back in Los Angeles. Enjoy it. I'm in Jacksonville, Florida. If you go look on the iPhone weather app right now, there is the thunderstorm symbol every single day for the next week. Well, but those last five minutes. Five minutes. I was sitting, I was at a restaurant working and having lunch. earlier today. And it was a very bright, modern restaurant. I actually saw Zach Berman in there,

which is very funny. He was picking up food because the Eagles writers are in Jacksonville right now. But I turned around at one point to take a phone call, and it was just black outside. It was sunny when I walked into the restaurant. I just, I don't understand the concept of Florida. I really don't. So let's unpack that, because I understand the concept of Florida. The first football game I ever went to was a Florida, Kentucky. game in 92, 93, something around there. And I was like four years old, five years old. And 93, five.

And a thunderstorm came. There may have been a weather delay. But a thunderstorm came. We were in the upper, upper, upper, upper deck. And a thunderstorm came over, and you could actually just see the cloud. And we're almost like in the cloud because we were so high. And then you could just see the thunderstorm completely, like, move away from the stadium. And it all happened within, like,

a minute and a half. And that is, that is when I understood how this works. So I understood football and Florida thunderstorms at the exact same time. It's 70% humidity right now in Jacksonville. I walked outside, I walked out of my car when I parked my car earlier this morning. And immediately my sunglasses fogged up so much that I couldn't see. I just, I don't understand this life. I have a lot of respect for the people who continue to live here in the summer months.

I really do. It's the way that people feel about winter in places like Chicago is how I feel about summer in places like Phoenix and Jacksonville. It's like, I just don't understand. I'd rather be cold for three months of the year than deal with this. My issue with Chicago is that the months, it's nice, are so like, it's like three months, two and a half months. Like it's really, it's- What you consider nice. Okay. Well, I mean, I was there for the draft a couple years ago, and it wasn't nice. and I was like basically May.

Let's get the show on the road. Late April, it's kind of drifted into late April these days, which is not that fun. All right. We're going to move on from some weather talk. On today's show, we're going to dig into some of our training camp tidbits first. After that, we've been doing some stuff this week. It's Rundrickon week. I've been doing a series on the new offensive play callers in the league.

If you haven't read those on the ringer.com, please go check them out. I've done one on the Packers. I've done one on the Cowboys. That's today. and then I've also done one on the Cardinals, along with a bigger look at just kind of the McVeification of the league. So with that in mind, and with that kind of at the forefront of what the site has been this week,

you and I are going to kind of create our ideal offenses. Whether it's the play call or the scheme, some of the young quarterbacks that we have around, we're going to kind of build our offense, both in terms of personnel and in terms of who's running it. Before we do that, though, let's just knock out these training camp tidbits from the places that we think. I am going to go knock a just a couple of lightning round from me because I've been to more places since we last recorded.

I started in Carolina and I had a chat with Norv Turner when I was there, which was fun. I was really interested just in kind of the ways that a 65-year-old head coach develops a modern offense because that's exactly what they've done. And apparently, I mean, they really do have the same language and the same structure that Norv Turner has always had and that Coriol push them all down the field. system. They've just kind of filtered it more through their smaller, quicker receivers, and it's led to a lot of college concepts coming up everything else. But he's been really open. I talked to a couple of his assistants, just about those things and how they mesh with what he's always done. And I think that's really impressive. We talk about that as it relates to Andy Reid all the time, but I don't think we thought Norv Turner had that capacity at this point in his career.

And to see that is really cool. The other thing that I was kind of thinking about there, was the secondary depth. We talked about this when we were discussing their overall potential and how the Tray Boston signing fit in. I was talking to a couple of the beat writers there who I've known for a while. And the conversation was kind of split between them, whether Boston would start and everything else. They like Ross Cockrell at one of those other safety spots, just because Rivera at safety

is always valued consistency and just reliability more than talent. You know, you think about all the older kind of aging guys that. to play that spot for them. It's more about not fucking up than it is about being some spectacular talent. So I'll be curious to see how that shakes out. But I do believe they have a lot of options there, which, again, the Boston signing gets you. I went to Atlanta next. Can I talk about Carolina?

Sure. I went to Carolina. So I think the Norr thing is really interesting. We've talked about this last year a little bit. But one of the things that Norv, you know, I would say he's one of these guys where what he's always done has dovetailed with the way the kids. games developed. And what I mean by that is he likes, you know,

he presses the seams. He can go over the middle of the field. That's, you know, the part of, say, Alvin Harper, part of that Cowboys' offense in the early 90s was not only having the outside guys, but the inside guys. Throw into the running back. Well, it's mostly a Jay Novichick more than Alvin Harper. I mean, Alvin Harper and

Michael Irvin, that was like straight outside the numbers deep ball receivers. That's what that offense used to be about. The key was a post route over the middle. Was that Novichek? I think they had a receiver in there. That's probably true. It doesn't matter. We're talking about 1992 schemes, right?

But the point of the 9-89 is that there's pressing the seams. And so, anyway, you know, I talked to Darren Sproul's a couple weeks ago and Darren Sproles' dad, and they said Norv Turner invented the Darren Sproul's role when he was there in San Diego, obviously, and that Marty Schopenheimer was just going to keep Darren Sproles on special teams. There was no foresight from someone like Marty Schottenheimer. It was all coming from Norv Turner on how to develop a Darren Sproles role. The Darren Sproles role, although principally filled by Darren Sproles, is pretty popular around the league. As far as a guy who can catch out of the back field, you know, dominate in space, that has grown, and that was all Norv 12 years ago.

Yeah, it's impressive. I mean, again, I think that what happened when Minnesota and kind of the way that ended, probably colored my opinion of whether or not he should. and could be a play caller in the modern NFL, and he's done an amazing job. And I think that offense is fun, and I cannot wait to watch them at full strength because it does seem like everybody's healthy. You know, Cam, they said there's a little bit off the fastball,

and that's obvious, but for the most part, even if he's functional as Cam Newton liked, I still think they have a chance to be really, really good. I agree. There's a lot of roster talent there. I think that, you know, obviously their health is, and we did this a couple of episodes ago, I'm not going to relitigate it,

But it's just health for them. It's just health. And if they're healthy, they have got a lot more roster talent than we give them credit for. I'm with you. So I went to Atlanta next. And I talked to Thomas Demetchoff for a minute. And I really wanted to ask him this because this is something we talked about, kind of around the draft.

And they threw so many resources at the offensive line. Even after signing Jamon Brown and James Carpenter to, you know, theoretically be their starting guards. I mean, they made a decent amount of money. You know, Ty Sambriolo, also making like $5.5 million. We've discussed this on this show. I mean, he's going to be your swing tackle now for $5.5 million if McGarry can play. And it just seems like so much to throw into that area. And he told me that even after they signed those guys in free agency, that he informed Arthur Blank that that wasn't going to stop them from getting at least one, probably two, offensive linemen in the first two rounds.

And I think part of the thinking behind that is they understand. what their window is in Atlanta. And they understand that this is probably their best chance over the next couple of years just in terms of how much overall talent they can bring to the roster without having to hit in the draft. We've talked about this in regard to the Saints all the time.

You absolutely can get better, but you need to thread a needle. That's not always easy to thread. And they have a lot of guys now that are cheaper than they're going to be next season, whether that's Dion Jones, Keanu Neal, pretty much all of those defensive players. Guys like Davondre Campbell and Austin Hooper are free agents.

they're probably not going to have the money to bring Austin Hooper back. So they really need to get the most out of this year. And I think they saw, they stared into what it was like to have an injured offensive line last season and how hard it is to function at times when you're destroyed up front. I think there are two areas of your roster where the drop-off between the starter and the backup can make your offense cease to function. And those two areas are quarterback and offensive line.

And I think that the way they built this off-season, the way they used their resources, was completely about having a contingency plan for ensuring that no matter what happened and no matter how hurt they got outside of Matt Ryan, they could still have a high-level offense because they know they need to. I have a problem in so much that I like all three of the good teams in the AFs in the NFC South.

I said the other day, I think it's the best government or the best division in the league. It's tough, man. I mean, that is going to be a slog for those teams. I honestly think I like the Saints the worst. Of those three. Yeah, I'm not saying We're eliminating the box.

Yeah, of those three. And when I say that, I think I mean in relatively to how other people view them. I think other people are kind of penciling the Saints in for 11 wins. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Saints were a 9 and 17 this year.

I just think with the Breeze question, everything else, I feel like if they fell off a tiny bit, it wouldn't shock me. And I like Atlanta and Carolina more than other people do, I think. But I do think that, I mean,

it's going to be a gauntlet. That entire season is going to be rough for all three of those teams. And Tampa Bay is not just an easy out, man. I was there yesterday, and I just think their offense is going to be really explosive. And bringing Bruce Ariens in there and with that staff and just having some really accomplished solid football coaches across their staff now, I think is important. I mean, I watched Mike Evans just roast Xavier Howard for a 50-yard gain yesterday. And I really do feel like that offense really fits what James does well. think they're going to be fun to watch.

Yeah, maybe they'll be fun to watch. I just don't, I only made me very good. I don't know. I think they're going to be better than people think. I don't know how good that is because their talent on defense still worries me. I mean, I was having a discussion with someone there about this. The worst thing you can do as you're building an NFL team is spend a lot of resources on one positional group and still have that positional group be bad.

And that's what's happened with the buck's secondary. and like the Bengals' offensive line is like that, that's just the most devastating thing to happen. When it's like, all right, we're going to spend a couple, you know, four second round picks in this area, and then none of those second round picks pan out.

That's how you get really bad, really fast. I'm not, it's too early to say, but I will say the Texans offensive line might be in that zone. Yeah. It's a very good, perfect thing to throw out there.

In the future. They're on the watch list for throwing a first round pick and resources that align and not having it improve. The other thing, they're just kind of of cool play design thing. They were,

the bucks were in the red zone, probably about the 20 yard line. And they motion Andre Ellington out into an empty formation and had him stacked with Mike Evans. And I just love that in the red zone. The saints have done that really well over the years where, you know,

they're this 21 personnel heavy team between the 20s. And when you think that, when conventional wisdom says you want to get heavier as you get toward the goal line, they spread it out. And I just want to see more teams do that because as the field shrinks vertically,

it makes way more sense to stretch defenses horizontally because you're using all the space available to you. And watching a team like, you know, Tampa Bay do that, it's like, yeah, that makes sense. Like with your personnel, that makes total sense. So that's just a small little thing. All right, more tidbits. That's all I got, man.

It's just those three teams. I'm in Jacksonville right now and I will, I'll be going to practice on, Saturday. I'll be going to the game tonight. Preseason football. I wasn't there. They didn't practice today.

We'll wait your updates on... Yeah, I'll have that for you next time we record on Tuesday. On the vibe. All right, so I went to Green Bay. That's the only place... Kansas... I recorded from Kansas City last time, so I updated everybody on what Kansas City looked like in Minnesota the day before.

The only place I've been is Green Bay. And then I flew back to the West Coast. Um, pretty much exactly what we talked about. Um, you know, I, I actually, and Matt Lafleur is a different guy than I, the guy I spoke to three years ago at the Super Bowl, which happens a lot when a guy becomes a head coach. in a good way, in a good way, in a good way. When he was quarterback's coach in Atlanta, under Kyle Shanahan, he just, a lot of assistant coaches tend to, I wouldn't say overthink, but they tend to be a little quieter because they're worried not only what their coordinator thinks, but they coach things, GM, all that. And it was really interesting to sit down with him in his golf card. He still has his golf cart. He drove me in the middle of the field in the golf.

golf cart and then drop me back off on the sideline in the golf cart. And it was really cool to talk to him and really just talk football with him. And I really, really enjoyed our talk. One of my, one of the, the best football conversations that I've had. You know, we talked a little bit about, you know, the, the sort of what we talked about what I wrote a piece on this week, which was the veterans thing. And, you know, his, he just really like smart players. And that all. And that all. And that. offense in the Packers, there's a lot of second contract guys. Now, obviously, Aaron Rogers is not on the second contract. He's on his fourth contract. That makes sense. Something like that. Probably around that. Jim. Jimmy Graham, veteran. Offensive line, Brian Balaga, getting arrest day. Veterans, everywhere. Now, there's Devante Adams, veteran. Now, there's a couple of things baked in. Number one is the smartness, and they really do mine for that. But the other thing is how important load management is for them. That's something I've really taken into account,

and teams like that have taken into account this camp, is just how important is. Brian Belaggett in practice the day I was there. There's just going to be some days where some of these veteran guys just have, you know, the GPS reads, just say, hey, this guy's got to sit out. And so I think that one of the more overlooked parts of the McVeigh tree

is how much rest these guys are going to get. I was going to say the exact same day. Yeah, Sean McVeigh has basically figured out how to rest their guys. And so whether that's in L.A., whether that's in Cincinnati, whether that's in Green Bay, I have seen more emphasis on player rest there in those places than I have most places and certainly more than any team, you know, two, three, four years ago. One of the secrets to the success the Rams have had the last couple of years is just how healthy they've stayed over the course of the season.

And that actually goes back to the Jeff Fisher era. If you look at... Oh, yeah, Jeff Fisher, sports science innovator, baby. I just think that for the most part, their medical team is very good. It's for the most, you know, usually injuries are not sticky.

And they bounce up and down every year. You know, the team at the top of the league and adjusted games loss, it's usually going to kind of come back to the middle. But with the Rams, they've been up there at the top of the league for the last three seasons, essentially since they moved to Los Angeles.

Angeles, they have been one of the healthiest teams in the league. And I think that the rest part of it is definitely a factor. I mean, there's no denying that. I'm writing a piece on this. It'll be up by, I don't know, at the end of the month. I don't know. But it's, it's really interesting to see. I will say the one funny thing is that Lafleur told me they were going to go like an hour and 38 the day I was out there because we talked to for practice. And then they just ended up going like two hours. Yeah. And so sometimes the football part of it, overrides the overrides the rest angle, but typically they're sticking to the schedule and I really like Matlifler. Do you want to talk about the Matliflor,

Aaron Rogers thing that I wrote about earlier this week? Yeah, that was the SEG. So, I wrote, that was the first story of my play calling series and just kind of about, I had a conversation with both of them just about their relationship

and the interplay of how much authority Rogers is going to get at the line, how much, everything else. I wanted to ask Matt Ryan about this because Matt Ryan was in his eighth season when Matt LaFleur came in as the quarterback's coach of the Falcons with this offense. And Matt Ryan is somebody that I've talked to him about this before. He had some growing pains with Kyle Shanahan early on based on some of the stuff Kyle was asking him. And one of those things specifically was turning his back to the defense using play action.

Matt Ryan did not like doing that. He just felt like you're scrambling. You're not gathering information as you do that. You can't really use your brain, and you're really having to trust the offense. And I think that is part of the process here with Aaron Rogers and Matt LaFleur, is that taking some stuff off of Aaron's plate and having him really forcing him to have more faith in the scheme and less faith in his own ability to be in control. And that's the difficult part here, is that this scheme, if you lean fully into,

it and you believe in it, the plays are going to be there. Kirk, I was just writing about this today in regard to Kirk Cousins because he loves it. And he doesn't even, he told me he loves turning his back to the defense because for a variety of reasons, I'm writing about that early next week. But if you just kind of fully immerse yourself and say, I believe this structure will work, it's usually going to work. We've seen it have massive success all over the NFL at every single, in every single iteration of it for a decade.

going back to Gary Kubiak's teams in like 2008 and 2009. And I think that's the challenge for Aaron Rogers is, can he just let go a little bit and really start to just trust in what this offense can bring you if you allow it to? I think the answer is yes. I think it's a constant dialogue. The other thing Matt Ryan told me is that the difference between the audibles in this system and other systems is that, for the most part, in some other systems, you get one play call in the huddle and you can change that play call to whatever you think

works best, which is essentially what Aaron Rogers done in the past. With this offense, you're getting two or three play calls, and you have to change based on the look, but you're picking from a limited menu. So that's where the actual kind of limitations on the audible income. But it's not as if Aaron Rogers is forced to take the play

that was called in the huddle and only call that. That's not what it means. I think that relationship, and I don't really care about the, you know, Aaron Rogers came out a little bit about the clickbait stuff or whatever. I don't want to care about that.

I was wondering if that was in relation to my story because it ran that day. Well, I mean, you know, Peter King wrote that on Monday as well. So I think there was a, there was a ground swell. It's very possible. Mine was not clickbaiting. I really did not like play up the fact

that they were having this contentious relationship. I don't think he, I don't think he, I don't think he was, he was talking about you having click being click bait. Oh, I don't think so either. But I was worried for a second when I saw that that had happened. I don't, I tried to be like pretty fair about all this. I think he was referencing the stuff that happened before the last couple weeks.

Because a lot, you know, whether that's Peter, whether that's yourself, a couple other folks. That story has gone back to OTAs where maybe he was vaguely clickbaity. But how he operates in that offense is maybe a top 10 storyline for me. I'm really, really intrigued to see it. I'm glad you dug into that. It's one of the things I'll be watching week one for sure. You know, I sat down with him. You know, he just seems pretty comfortable.

Yeah, I feel like that in the exact same thing. He just seemed really calm and, you know, some, I don't want to be the body language doctor. I don't want to be the vibe guy because a lot of times, there's a lot of crappy players who have great vibes and are very calm and have great body language. But I just, I feel like he is at the moment having a very peaceful training camp. I felt the exact same way. That's the same kind of vibe that I was picking up. And I think it's going to work. I think that I've seen him execute these types of plays early in his career.

And I was asking him about a specific play against Miami, I think in 2010, that was kind of that hard play fake, zone run, move the launch point, deep shot, touchdown to Jordan Nelson. I'm just like, you've done this before. He's like, it's totally overstated how much of a transition this is going to be. They have done all of this stuff during points in his career. It's been a while. I mean, it's been, you know, five, six years as they have transitioned. transition to more shotgun, but this is all, he told me it was not about reprogramming your brain. It was just about recalling.

And all of this stuff is in the depths of his football mind somewhere. It's just about kind of bringing it back. And with someone who has that much talent and that much football acumen, I have all the faith in the world that he can bring it back. All right. Let's build an offense. All right. So why don't you start? So when we're having this discussion, what is the first thing that came to mind for you?

Well, I think it's really easy to pick the low-hanging fruit. is the best QB coach relationship in the NFL and this is just offensively. We're not, let's take Belichick and Brady out of the equation here because we're just building the offense.

So I have as much respect as anybody about the Patriots that don't, a bunch of pay, if you don't, one of the things that's happened with the internet now, Robert, and you know this,

is if you don't give, if you don't mention the Patriots first when it comes to like team building or something, people just immediately just say, well, what about the Patriots? So yes, we are acknowledging the Patriots are a very good team. We talk about them all the time.

Now, we're just building the offense. Is the best marriage of play-calling and quarterback in Kansas City? Absolutely, yes, it is. But I think that to say, okay, I really want to see Mahomes and McVeigh's offense, whatever, I think that's kind of low-hanging. For me, the number one thing you want to do right now is take advantage of what defense present you. And that means everything over the middle of the field.

And I think that that's even going to grow this year. I think that as defense has tried to get more flexible and try to get more athletic, I still think there's huge opportunities over the middle of the field. I'm looking at the stats here for throwing over the middle of the field. And do you know who had the best DVOA to the slot last year? I do not. I'm curious. Russ Wilson.

So this is, that's funny that you mentioned him. We'll get to this. Because I'm not saying that Russell Wilson is my number one pick in an offensive draft. I'm just saying that he's really freaking good. And if you pair him with a really good coach who can exploit the middle of the field, and there's a couple of guys who have incredible DVOA over the middle, Mike Williams is one. It's not a surprise at Tower Lockett is one because he is a huge reason that Russell Wilson is good over the middle of the field.

Brandon Cooks is good. Cooper Cup is good. Robert Woods is good. Your boy Alan Robinson's not bad. Keenan Allen. Tyree Kill. I mean, these are guys who can really make moves in the middle of the field. And I think that is the biggest thing in football right now

is taking advantage over the wide, wide gaps the defenses cannot cover. The rules have hamstrung them. I asked defensive backs. I asked linebackers over this entire camp tour. I just throw the question to them. What can defenses do to catch out? and half of them are like nothing, like nothing. We are hand-change the rules.

Get a good lobbying group. You can't put your hands in anybody anymore. The secret for 50, 60, 70 years of football was you couldn't go over the middle. You were liable to end up out of the game, out of the season, out of your career. If you went over the middle of the field and now the Rams, in 2017, Jared got through

over the middle of the field in the slot like 78% of the time. That's what they do. So that's why you bringing up the players is interesting to me because when I hear all of those names clustered together, I go straight to the scheme. No, I understand that. What I'm saying is the scheme I'm talking about is any scheme that takes advantage of all of the rules. That means Andy Reid, because I mentioned the chiefs in that. That means the McVeigh situation because you have both Robert Woods and Cooper Cup getting a lot of targets of the middle of the field. Yeah, I'm not saying it's scheme or players. I mean,

obviously Russell Wilson's an awesome quarterback. Mahomes is an awesome quarterback, but what I'm saying is you have to take everything into consideration. The first thing I would do is figure out a way to take advantage of the middle of the field. Done. And I think the way I would do that is I would just try to hire Kyle

Chenehander in my office. Or they have that type of offense. You know, what the chiefs did is amazing. And I think Mahomes is obviously such a blast and everything else, But I mean, I think I've made it well known that my favorite type of football is that Kubiak-Shanahan version of it, where it's zone running, play action. And the way I would build it is not the way the Rams built it. I like the varied personnel packages.

I would have, I would make sure I found a guy who could play fullback for me. And you don't have to spend a lot of money on a guy like that. The 49ers did, but it's not necessary. You know, I think that CJ Ham and Minnesota is going to get a lot of work this year in two bag sets, and I think he's going to catch a lot of balls. He's an athletic. I mean, he's making $645,000 this year. You can fill that spot very cheaply.

And I think that you can get well-rounded tight ends that aren't expensive. You know, guys like Gerald Everett. Rams don't focus on their tight ends as much just because they have three such good receivers. But I think Gerald Everett, in a more tight-end-focused offense, could be a really impressive player. And I think then you get, I can't decide when I was thinking about this. Do I want one define a move tight end and one blocking tight end? Or do I want to find two guys who can do both pretty well?

And I don't know the answer to that. I think you can be a little bit more unpredictable with the latter. But I also think it's harder to find those guys based on the players that are coming out of college. Yeah, that's for sure. But I would want a team that's really heavy on 12 personnel that's really heavy on 21 personnel. That's all play action all the time. And guys, receiver-wise, I think that you absolutely want talent there. If I was thinking about the way I wanted to spend my money,

I think I would kind of skimp on the offensive line a little bit, similar to the way the Rams have done, because they're able to kind of hide things with schemes so much because it slows down the pass rush. The Rams paid Rob Havenstein, but really the middle of their offensive line is not expensive. So Saffold was getting a decent amount of money, but they let him go when he got really expensive.

So I would try to skimp on the middle of the line a little bit, find a smaller athletic center that maybe would be underdrafted, and then the receiver you'd probably want to spend a little bit because I just think that that's such an important position. But I'd be way more about guys who understand how to get open outside of one burner. I think you need one burner, but for the most part,

I think you can get guys that are a little less physically gifted and again save some money. But with the quarterback discussion, Russell Wilson is the guy I landed on too. Hey. For this reason, because I think he can play under center and in the shotgun. We've seen him run some under center play action stuff in the past.

I think he's really comfortable throwing on the move and moving. You know, that offense that Shanahan runs, you need a little bit of athleticism out of your quarterback because he's going to be moving the launch point. He's going to be, you know, rolling out, all that stuff. We obviously, you know, Wilson has the athletic ability to do that. But also, you can kind of play around in the shotgun. I mean, we've seen him be that point guard just distributing the ball around late in that 2015 season. I think he has that ability.

I just think he can do so many different things well. And I was talking to Cliff Kingsbury about. this. And I thought it was such a fascinating point that he made. We're talking about shotgun out of, or play action on a shotgun versus under center. And he was telling me that he thinks shotgun out of play action to be as effective, but you need a running quarterback. And he wasn't even talking about Kyler. He was actually referencing Lamar Jackson. He's like, I don't care if Lamar Jackson was in shotgun. You're reacting just as hard to those playfakes as you are to the Rams going under center because he's such a threat to run the ball. And guess what?

Russell Wilson is. So I just think you can do so many different things. a packaging that play action heavy scheme if Russell Wilson was your quarterback. Yeah, I'm extremely pro-Rossal Wilson. I think that the heavy thing, you've been talking about it for years. I came around to it last season extremely important. I think the back field is going to become really, really, really important. Fullback is essentially just back as a position. The Shanahan and McVeigh's of the world, you know, in Green Bay,

it seems like it might be more relevant in New England, James Devlin. New Orleans. New Orleans. Zachline plays a lot. But in, you know, I think that... The best teams, essentially. The smartest teams. The smartest teams have brought the fullback back.

It was pretty much dead six, seven years ago. I remember that. If Rex Ryan had two fullbacks, I remember. And everybody was like, this isn't, this isn't good. And Brian Chondheim was Evan's coordinator for that. I mean, yeah, I mean, there was more 11 personnel with three receivers on the field five years ago than there is now. For sure, absolutely. And so I think the fullback position is going to talk about a lot more this year.

I think that, you know, one of the things that the analytics movement, where they get misunderstood is people say running back doesn't matter. And that isn't necessarily true. Running back and the running game matters. What doesn't matter is a specific running back you've invested a ton in. The actual backfield is extremely important. And we're going to see that this year. You know, we're going to see it freaking New England. I just got the phone with someone, a couple hours.

ago, and they were saying, you know, hey, we keep doing this yearly discussion. Well, who's the, who's the Patriots receiver? Who's the Patriots receiver? And obviously, they'd love to have Grong. They'd love to have Josh Gordon or whatever. But Belichick's just going to press the seams. He's going to go over the middle of the field with these running backs over and over again. They're going to figure it out. That's what he does. James White is going to be their number one receiver. James White and James Devlin. He's going to turn James Devlin into freaking Michael Thomas. I love that. I mean, that's to me my favorite version of this.

And you can do so much out of it. You know, it's not just, I think that these are the problem is teams learn the wrong lessons, right? It's like, oh, yeah, that's the entire history of football. Yeah. And so we talked about this in relation to the McVeigh thing. It's what I wrote this week. It's not about kind of painting by numbers and saying, all right, we got a guy that looks and sounds like Sean McVeigh, let's fucking do this. And when you look at what the Patriots did especially, you know, it's not just they have a full-back.

on the field. It's just that they're running all of their plays out of every formation with the fullback on the field. That's how they won the Super Bowl. And that to me is the coolest part. Seeing teams like Dallas use that in practice and motion into empty formations when they have two backs on the field

after what their offense looked like last year. That's encouraging. I feel like it's not a bad thing for more of these teams to start making innovative decisions and if they're going to fail, at least try to fail in the right ways. All this. Talked by a million different people. Russell Wilson and all that. Patriots, going to win the Super Bowl.

They were off the table for this, though. I mean, Josh McDaniels, I wouldn't mind having him be my coach. If he was going to run the offense, I'm all set with that. I mean, I was supportive of the Colts choice at that point. It clearly worked out for them, but again, I think that that pairing him with your quarterback would probably be a good thing. Could he have a good job over there? Can we do 10 seconds on what's going on with Andrew Locke right now? Sure. Are you worried about it? Am I worried about a mystery injury that seems to have a new update every day? Yes, I am. Okay.

Only in the sense that, you know, there's anything unknown I'm slightly worried about. Wasn't he not throwing footballs until, like, September 1st last year? Yeah, but that doesn't mean that, you know, history doesn't repeat itself exactly. History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes. I think that's Mark Twain who was talking about Andrew Luck's injury. But I just, it is so strange. And one thing I just wish, Andrew Luck is one of my favorite players in football. And if he was fully healthy all the time, he would be unimaginably good.

And I just hope that this isn't, you know, even if he starts throwing football again on September 1st and is Andrew Luck from 2018 and he's back, it's going to be a real tragedy if we. never get to see him with full off seasons like every other quarterback gets, at full health, getting to play like Andrew Luck played a couple years ago. I still, what's amazing about Andrew Luck is even going through all of this stuff, even the lacerated kidney. I mean, like every single year,

he gives an interview in like November to Stephen Holder or Zach Kiefer that's like, oh man, it was way worse than you guys knew. Like every single year. And it's like I, he's still a top 10 quarterback even with that. It's a, he is amazing, and I wish him health. I hope it works out because I'm really excited to watch that team this year.

If he was hurt, it would just be such a bummer. I have one more question for you as it relates to the team building thing. I wrote about this maybe a month ago or so. If you had to start your offense with one receiver, who would it be? Man, that's a great question because it typically would be someone who does a lot with a little. And so like 2013, Josh Gordon would be the prototype for this, right? where he just crushed it with having crappy quarterbacks. I don't know who that is right now because you have Michael Thomas.

He's got Drew Brieze. You've got, you know, Kenan Allen. He's got Philip River. So who's doing the most with the least right now? DeAndre, well, I said, DeAndre Hopkins maybe, but Deshaunson is quite good. He used to be that way. That's what I'm saying. I understand that point, but I also think that that's kind of,

not the most important aspect of this. This is a weird thing to say. I think DeAndre Hopkins is the best receiver in the league. I think I think I agree. I wrote this and I think, I just feel like, for this reason, this is why I wrote it and this, I stand by this.

I just think when the ball is in the air, I have the most faith he's going to come out with it. I mean, just the amount of, it's not the spectacular catches. It's the quietly spectacular catches. The amount of balls he catches away from his frame and he just makes it look so easy is nuts. I mean, it's just really,

really ridiculous how simple that seems from him when other guys are going to be fighting themselves. That being said, if I was starting an offense, I'd still pick Julia. Because I just think he does the most stuff. I feel like you can line Julio up in the slot. I think he's a deep threat. I think he, there's still like there's so many different aspects to his game. So I think right now in their current situations for the 2019 season, I think DeAndre Hopkins is a more valuable wide receiver as a pass catcher. But I just think in terms of if I was building the structure of my offense, I would rather have Julio Jones.

That may seem like those are in Congress with one another, but in my mind it makes sense. What are you going to do by November when the answer is James Devlin? I don't know. I guess just start reporting all my Pre-Patriot Super Bowl stories. We should start doing that in October now rather than January. I'm just checking this out right now. where can I see receptions for him?

He had one in the playoffs. He doesn't catch the ball very often. 12 receptions in 2018. I know you're really excited about this, but he may line up at receiver, but they ain't throwing it too. No, he's not actually going to line up at receiver. They're just going to go two in the back to go back there.

Yeah, no, no, I... He does line up as receiver. No, I'm saying that he's not going to... He had 17 targets last year, and that will increase to 150. So with the receiver conversation, who you'd pick, I mean, obviously, I think Cooley- I think Hopkins, I think Hopkins,

I mean, listen, man, the Michael Thomas completion percentage thing is outrageous. He's really good. I know that you can say it's scheme and quarterback, but that's really impressive. His game is really impressive. I love him, and I just think he does so many things well. Like you said,

navigating the middle of the field. He has such a good understanding of zone leverage and everything else and where to settle. He's fantastic at contested catches up the sideline. when they do use him that way. I just, again, we're nitpicking here.

Mike Evans, I'd throw Mike Evans out there. Mike Evans should be in this conversation. I think he has gotten to the point where he's a little bit underrated. I would not be surprised at all if he led the NFL in receiving yards for wide receivers this year. He'd obviously honestly be my pick if I was picking somebody. But with Thomas, if we're nitpicking, we should when we get to this level. I just, the lack of just pure explosive athleticism is why he wouldn't be there for me. I just don't think he can stretch the field where a guy like Julio can.

Where I own juju? I think Julie is a good player. I think this is going to be a good test. Now that he's the guy that's the focal point, now that safety is going to be rolling to him, everything else, I think he's going to be good.

The one thing I will say, I don't know, and I think Beckham is, it's ridiculous to me that, like, we're not expecting Beckham to have 1,500 yards and 12 touchdowns this year.

He's going to. He was incredible. He was the most exciting player in the NFL with Eli Manning. And now he's with Baker Mayfield. Yeah. But my point was, I don't know how many

wide receivers I would go through before I landed on George Kittle. Was this the whole thing a George Kittles? A George Kittal thing? No, it didn't start that way. It didn't start that way. I just want to say that if he was healthy,

had a helmet, and I wonder where this one's going. If he had a working helmet that's less than 10 years old and he's fully healthy, Antonio Brown is amazing as a player. Yes, he is. I, and, but that thing with Antonio Brown, though,

it's kind of why I knocked him down when I wrote that, is that we had never seen him with out Ben Ruffisberger. And I think of that connection, we're gonna see it now. Well, I mean, we did see it. We saw him with Landry Jones. We did. Those two game stretches that the, uh,

listen, man. Steelers' offense was clicking on all cylinders during those weeks. I think he did pretty well. I feel like with Kittle, and to me, it would honestly be a discussion between Kittal and Kelsey with which tight end I would want first, I would probably land on Kittle

just because I think he's a devastating blocker. You know, he's not Grunk because no one is, but I think he's the closest thing when it comes to having both aspects of his game. You know, this isn't a fantasy football conversation. Travis Kelsey is going to probably lead tight ends in fantasy scoring because he plays on the Chiefs. But if we're building a team from scratch,

I probably would rather have Kittle right now than Travis Kelsey. I think that's accurate. I think that's accurate. I think they're both really good. But, yeah. Again, we're nitpicking here at the top. We're nitpicking. This is, we're at least having a take because in our, who would you take as a wide receiver

conversation, we named every good wide receiver. I picked Julio. Okay. I definitively, I didn't know we were veering off into that, so I didn't pick anybody. I didn't know we were veering off into it either, but I think it's part of the building and offense discussion, right? Yeah. Yeah.

I think you can, let's think you can scheme up receivers in a way. So I agree with you. That's why I was saying the, getting open thing. I think that I would value that more so than like really physically gifted guys. I don't know if I'd go super high end with the receiver if I, you know, you gave me a salary cap.

I'd have to really think about it. Well, the Saints don't operate that way, buddy. No. Nor is Jerry Jones. All right. That's all we got for today, guys. I am about to head off to the Jacksonville Jaguars, Philadelphia Eagles preseason game. Kevin is

what are you doing today? What's Thursday night? to go boxing. Nice. That sounds good. I can't wait to be home and eat some lettuce and actually work out a little bit.

It's going to be great. All right. As always, guys, thank you so much for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer podcast network. We'll talk to you next week. Thanks, guys.