The Ringer NFL Show - The Future of Football With Chris Borland, Bill Simmons, and Kevin Clark (Ep. 209)

Episode Date: December 28, 2017

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons and Kevin Clark are joined by former 49ers linebacker Chris Borland to discuss his decision to walk away from football and the best ways to address the major issues in the game today. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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People love our ringer NFL show feed. It's an honor to be on it this week. This is an interview that we taped with Kevin Clark from the ringer and former NFL player, Chris Borland, who retired early, really early, from the San Francisco 49ers because he was worried about his health.

that became a big story. Chris has not done a lot of press. He came in, I think, two weeks ago. And we talked about a whole bunch of stuff about the NFL, where it's going, concussion awareness, the future of health care in the NFL. Should we even have the NFL?

We go deep. It's coming up right now. All right. Chris Borland is here. Kevin Clark is here from the ringer. We're taping this a day after a brutal Pittsburgh Cincinnati game. Did you guys watch that game? Yes.

Did you see it? I didn't know. How much football are you watching these days? I'm not. You're out? I'm out, yeah. Not protesting it, not, you know, anything like that. I think it's apathy.

I just am not interested to watch anymore because I'm surprised to hear that. It was such a big part of your life or I'm sure since you were a kid, right? True. Yeah, but I think in ways that's actually an easier way to abstain because it was cathartic for me. I got it out of my system. I think a lot of people who haven't played at that level still maybe romanticize it a little bit. Yeah, I know Kevin does.

Once you've seen how the sausage is made, it's pretty easy not to watch. All right, so Kevin and I'll talk about the game. Yeah, exactly. But there was this, every once in a while, there's just a brutal night game. It's like either once a year or once every two years. There's just a game where like three guys get carried off.

It's usually those two teams somehow. Yeah. What was the, what was, Rathusberger's quote after that when it's Ravens, Steelers, it's a hard-hitting game, and when it's Ravens, I'm sorry, Steelers, Bengals, he's scared for everybody. Yeah. Something like that. That was the way he phrased it.

And the thing about the Shazir hit, which is probably the scariest hit I've seen in the last five years, something like that, is, you know, the NFL continues to say there's some sort of march towards a safer game and the way they say, oh, the doctors are on the sidelines, or oh, you know, the helmets are better or whatever. The hitches you had, you cannot legislate out of the game. You cannot solve it with any sort of initiative or lobbyist or doctor. And that was what was so devastating was just the helpless feeling of like, that's football. Yeah.

Although, you know, at that point, that kind of thing could happen in almost any sport, right? Exactly. Like two outfielders can collide. That could happen. I don't know how they fix that with football. There's moments of football where you're just like, no matter what they do, that's, I don't know how you tell a guy to hold up who's. going 20 miles an hour.

I did see that hit. I'm not watching football, but nor am I living under a rock. I played against Ryan in college, and he's a great guy. Is there an update? Do they know? They said he had a spinal cord concussion? Yeah. Contusion?

He's still in the hospital, but the update was it's not as bad as it could have been. Yeah. I mean, the worst case in our football is pretty freaking bad, by the way. Yeah, they were thereafter. They were like, Tommy Maddox had this in 2002. He only missed one game. It's like, oh, great to hear. Let's get him back out there.

What was this for the Stewards Doctors in 2002? Hell, Maddox is fine. Just get him back out there. I saw there was wording about his availability. And, you know, when somebody's legs aren't moving, it's like, is this an explicit podcast? It's super. Fuck, fuck availability.

It's like this might man might not walk. But you're right. I don't know how you legislate that out of the game. I mean, I've been in that position as a middle linebacker on a crossing route hundreds of times. I did what Ryan did hundreds of times. thankfully didn't have a spinal contusion but that's part of playing football.

You think that's the most dangerous position of all the positions been a linebacker? In terms of from collisions? It depends what you're talking about. If you're talking about CTE, it seems as though offensive and defensive line because you have the most sub-concussive hits. In terms of catastrophic injury,

I think safety or linebacker because you're coming in at speed, you don't know what exactly is going to happen. And with those sub-concussive hits on the line, it's pretty repetitive. You understand the angles. It's like boxers. Yeah. You understand where you're going to hit your head and what plays being run and what scheme

and what fit. You know, when I'm running from 15 yards out and my opponent is too and the ball's another variable, you really don't know what's going to happen. You can't really prepare for it as much. So it depends what you're talking about. In terms of what happened to Ryan last night, I think safety is, safety and linebacker are positions that are the most dangerous. It doesn't seem there's a lot of 20-year.

middle linebackers. Like, I watch Luke Kekley now, and he's been one hit away from the end of his career for really since last year when he got hurt. I mean, there's an argument that if you're crying on the field, that your career should end. Yeah. Well, you know, Junior Seahout came to mind as a 20-year linebacker. So, you know, that was part of my evaluation and the prognosis of playing for a long time. Yeah, Luke is a tremendous player and plays the game the right way.

And the issue's baked into the game because Luke does everything. He's a clinic tackler. He's a clinic linebacker. If you were teaching a young kid how to play the position, you'd say just watch Keeckley. And he's had these issues. So the inherent violence, regardless of how you're tackling, is hugely problematic. When did you start thinking about walking away? Was it in college?

No, no. It wasn't until my rookie year. I entered camp. you know, cheesy or not writing down all my goals, and, you know, one of which was to be a Hall of Fame linebacker. And I know that sounds incredibly lofty for a third round draft pick, slow white guy, but that's what I wrote down. I wanted to play at least 10 years.

I wanted to be the best I could be at linebacker. As the season progressed, and I was looking into this issue more, I thought, you know, maybe not 10. What season are we talking? 14? Yeah, 14, my rookie year. I said, gee, maybe not 10. you know, pace it back.

And then by the end of the year, I was thinking maybe three, three years. So what changed from college to pro? Like, what did you see in the pros that opened your eyes? It wasn't about the level, the change in the game. It was about the science. So I was willfully ignorant in college. I could have told you what CTE stood for. I couldn't have told you what CTE stood for.

Yeah. Obviously knew of Mike Webster. He went to Wisconsin, knew of junior Sayals taking his life, but didn't know that these droves of players kind of in between those drastic stories of household names that make the news and guys who have daily struggles and maybe only played three or four years. So again, looking into the science, I was coming out at Boston University and other places and just said, you know, I have these lofty goals in the game. I'm not really a guy who cares that much about wealth. I don't care to be famous.

So am I going to risk all of this for a buck? No. Quixotically, naively, I thought, okay, I'll get and just choose another direction in life. Ironically, I've dealt with this on a daily basis for two and a half years, at least intellectually, having to talk about CT and brain damage and being involved in research, which was never my intent, but I think we've made progress. I know you know Chris Nowinski a little bit. I did. And what they've done is wonderful.

I think this issue often gets conflated solely as an NFL problem. With the science that's available right now, the fact that we are knowingly subjecting five-year-olds to a brain disease, to me, will baffle anthropologist for centuries to come. Yeah, that's all the conversations I've had, the youth sports angle of it, is the most alarming, especially with football. You can make a case nobody should play. What do you think? What age, Kevin? 15?

15? I would say high school. I mean, is there really a reason for guys to play middle school? The counter argument to this is you get taught how to tackle and basically you get taught all the mechanics. I don't. Seems like you get taught the mechanics on your 15. Yeah. And to Chris's point about Luke Keekely, who is more clinical than Luke Keekely?

Kikley has a history of concussions. I mean, it's just, it's a brutal sport. Yeah. I don't know if, you know, the Seahawks and the Falcons are two teams that are trying to innovate the way that NFL teams and high school teams and college teams tackle. but it's not like those teams are immune from concussions. It just those things happen. And the less concussions you can have, the better. So I think you limit the youth.

I mean, they don't even let soccer players head the ball under 12 years old in some states. So my daughter is 12 and a half and plays soccer. And it's our coach won't let, they'll head during games. Yeah. But we don't practice headers. We'll see, we, because her team's really good now. So we'll play these other teams. these girls are hitting everything and they're 12 and it just it always makes me nervous because the ball is not soft no no but i mean

football's a different animal than that well youth youth and particularly girl soccer because of the biomechanics of weaker necks um but if we could pace back to that point about flag um i think football and brain injury is really contentious and adversarial and everybody's you know they like to extrapolate this to the end we're are we going to ban football or things like that. A silver lining is flag until high school. When I was at the combine and had my formal interview with the 49ers, it was just me, hardball, and Vic Fangio in a small hotel room in Indianapolis. And, you know, hardball's on the edge of his chair doing all of his hardballisms and intensity. And he said, every American boy should play soccer through the eighth grade. I was taken aback because he lives and breeze football more than anybody I know.

but when I told him, because he asked what sports I'd played growing up, I told him basketball, soccer, tennis, baseball, everything under the sun. My dad, who was a college linebacker, made me wait until high school. Yeah, I don't think they're... Soon they have five years of hits on you then. Ten. Oh, ten. I can't add.

I think I have a concussion. Yeah, ten. But, you know, I think for all the talk about, you know, ending the game or who's anti-football or anything like that, the silver lining. If Jim Harbaugh is okay with it, I don't know anybody who loves football more. So I think we can afford to wait until high school, develop more skills athletically. I don't think youth football really, you run forward and whoever hit puberty first runs everybody over, runs around everybody.

You can develop better cardiovascular health. Football, it's funny, NCAA doctors and NFL-funded doctors like to say we need youth tackle football to combat obesity. And yeah, I laugh too. it's uh you definitely run more in soccer it's quite literally the only team sport in the world where obesity is an advantage i mean you're a run stuffer you're a hog you're a big na being fat is an advantage is the only youth sport a fat kid can can excel out in sports writing i think it's an it's incredible to see i saw this with nick hardwick a couple weeks ago when i saw a photo of him the stanton former chargers center so many of these guys are not supposed to be fat no that's the

incredible thing. Jeff Saturday was stunning. So many of them are supposed to be 180 pounds and they bulk up to 300 because they know they have a chance at college. Then it gets to the NFL. It is incredibly unhealthy and I'm just shocked by it. How much were you weighing at your peak? I played between 245 and 248. What do you weigh now? About 225. It's something I've struggled with and I take issue with the Doc saying that because I started playing at 14 and did everything I could. I was a smaller kid to gain as much weight as possible. And then, you know, no matter how disciplined you are,

when you're accustomed to eating thousands and thousands of calories every day, there's no reason for me to walk around on Earth at 248 pounds. I'm just over 511. So I've worked hard to get down, but still, I've got a lot of friends who balloon up after they're playing. It's kind of the inverse. You see big linemen get really skinny. Sometimes you see those skill guys who are running around a lot

blune up because they're used to eating a lot and weightlifting. We can't mention those guys. Or every high school football star who stayed in his hometown, they also put on the 50 pounds. Yeah, yeah, drinking heavily. Yeah, poor buds a night. People keep talking about the state championship game 10 years ago. Yeah, my son played flag football this year. And I was surprised how much I enjoyed watching it.

And also, like, a lot of the same mechanics that would work for real football really do work in flag. Like the craziest, the most aggressive kids are the best ones and the fastest ones stand out. And I don't know. I don't feel like they were missing much without the pads. I think as you get older, you could see the ones that kind of wanted to bang in everybody. Unfortunately, my son was one of those. And not only that, but the way high schools, colleges and now pro offenses run, they run flag football offenses. I mean, seven on seven is a flag football thing.

The spread offense can be run very well. And that's why receivers and quarterbacks are so good now. or at least good at throwing is because they have so many reps. And maybe the line play is a little worse. But I think overall, tackle football is becoming more like flag football. And that will help the game of flag football development. Except for line blocking, I think. Right.

Especially if we don't have tackle until high school. And then everybody is playing these pass friendly kind of just where the linemen are just constantly past protecting and that's it. Football is going to change. I think 20 years from now football, even if, let's say it's like a age 14 can't play before then but just in general it's it's going to look a lot like these stupid college games i think that's where football's going i don't say i don't think the run down your throat football is going to exist 20 years from now who's in the college playoff

this year who is Georgia uh calmson alabama and oklahoma and oklahoma and i assume alabama's hitting you in the mouth that's their that's their style yeah because they have 17 running Backs. The other schools? Yeah. They're mostly spread, right, Tate? Yeah. I mean, Baker Mayfield at Oklahoma is just throwing the ball over the place.

So, well, okay, with the exception of those teams, I mean, I still think it's an advantage to be more physical. I think that cliche of who wins the front line wins the game is true. So, yes, I think the game naturally evolves with these safety precautions, but it's still an advantage to be the more physical team. And to be bigger. And to be bigger. And I played at Wisconsin.

Our theory on being successful is get the biggest farm boys from Wisconsin and just bludgeon teams and win 13 to 10. That's how they play basketball too, by the way. We'll take it. Two final fours recently. But yeah, so so long as it's an advantage, I don't see a coach electing to take away an advantage he has. The only thing they could change it is if literally the pipeline of big offensive linemen disappear. Like that's it. Because right now there's a cheat code, and that cheat code is you get a bunch of, you get five huge

offensive linemen, and you can run the ball for six yards to carry if you want. And I think that's what's interesting to me is that there are teams who are trying to go spready and all that stuff. But overall, you can still just knock the crap out of people. And that's why football is going to take a little longer to change. I wanted them to have tug-o war rules where it's just like a weight limit for the offensive line at all times. Yeah, I don't think that's like 1,400 pounds for your five guys, and you can't.

exceed it. You could have weigh-ins on Saturday. You can tell him on Saturday. Uh-oh, the left tackle for that. He plays super dehydrated because he's been in the sauna all morning. Or a controversy because they snuck in the right guard. They stuck in the backup who's 20 pounds heavier. They made it cheated. We at Wisconsin at one point, I can't do the math off the top of my head, but everybody was 330 plus on the line. And then we took Ryan Groye. I mean, let's think about that. How many 330 pound people do you know? None. I mean, you know more than most. How many do you know, Kevin? I don't know any of the football. I don't think I know a single 330-pound person

other than probably people in mind. Yeah, yeah. But not even that. They took one of our backup linemen, who's still with the bills, Ryan Groy, freakishly athletic, and put him in fullback. Oh, my God.

And Ryan was 325. Oh, my God. So we're in practice, you know, you're going against literally tons of pounds with a 325-pound fullback coming at you. So it was effective for us. We won three straight Big Ten championships. How much of that is food and weightlifting

and how much of that is other stuff. D-da-da. I don't think there's any, truly, any other stuff that I saw at Wisconsin. Really? No, none. This is like a mafia thing where... Bill, you can get to 3.30 pretty easily in Wisconsin.

That is true. Yeah, we were talking about the cheese, the cheese curds and beer. That's the one state where you can naturally get up to 3.30. Who wants some fried kibasa? Wisconsin's, they got a bar called Wandoes, and every Tuesday night, it's all you can eat free bacon

and $1.24 ounce pvrs. Wow. That's the PEDs, Bill. Those are the PEDs language now. That was an offensive lineman hangout, so it's telling, yeah. There's no issues like that, no dun-d-d-dun big guys. The former players will never talk about PEDs. It just doesn't happen.

I'm being completely candid. No, I know. It's just the way it is. Didn't see any. But the NFL, I mean, there had to have been some stuff you'd heard. Yeah, there's murmurings in the end. NFL, but, you know, at Wisconsin, I truly didn't see any. And just huge honking farm boys that ate their asses off and drank a lot and lifted a lot. So that's what it was. That's what it was. When you got to the Niners, they were just coming off. Was that the coming off the Super Bowl or

the year after the Super Bowl? I guess it was the year after the Super Bowl. I guess it was the year after the championship the previous year. Yeah. Harbaugh is starting to wear out as welcome. You know, I don't know. I think was it was a year, the last Harbaugh year was 14, right? Yeah. I don't know. I think maybe for some vets. I thought it was more of management.

Was it players too? A little bit? I can't speak to it. I mean, I was a rookie. There were a couple, like Alex Boone came out against Harbaugh. He just said he'd want as welcome. It seemed as though there was a rift between management. Again, I don't mean to shirk the question, but I was a 23-year-old rookie, you know,

trying to contribute. So I wasn't privy to all the interworkings of. of high-level NFL politics. It did seem as though particularly towards the end of the year that the writing was on the wall. Yeah, and it was almost awkward. I think everybody understood that either Harbaal or Balkees was out, our GM, Trent Balke.

He's got, yeah. Well, there was only one person in America who decided Balke was better than Harbaugh and that's to be the owner of the San Francisco 49ers. Although I do wonder, though, Harbaugh might be one of those college-type coaches is that it's like after four years, he's so intense all the time. Guys get worn out by him.

Like Tate. Yeah, Tate's like that. That seems to be what's happened since from San Diego to Stanford and 49ers and on. I can say, I mean, I love playing for Harbaugh. I get why people would be a little annoyed by the who's got it better than us stuff. To him, it's genuine. Yeah. So it's not fake.

It's not contrived to him. He believes every word of it. and you have to respect that. Yeah. Would you want to play for Harbaugh, Kevin? Yeah. For four years? Four years?

Yeah. How about for 14? I think that if you're a big personality, like Alex Boone is a good example, the big personality. Like, they're kind of as a clash of alphas, I think. Yeah. And I think that's sort of what happens.

I think he tries to be the dominant personality every time. I think he's the next Giants coach. I know that's a conspiracy theory. And not like Colts or Bears where he played? No. Okay. I think the Giants is probably the single best football job that's out there. That would be the number one coaching job.

The only thing is he had such a nightmare with the GM in San Francisco that he probably went full control and the Giants wouldn't give it to him. Or he gets like the guy who he's kind of buddies with that they run it but he has some say in it, one of those situations. But what's a better NFL coaching job than the Niners? I mean, than the Giants. I would say that's number one, right? Yeah. Most history. Biggest city.

Most stability. Yeah. Low expectations after Macadoo. You're following Ben McAdoo. What's better than that? Pittsburgh and Green Bay. Pretty good spots. Yeah.

You're in Pittsburgh and Green Bay. Not New York. Yeah. Good point. I think Pittsburgh's underrated. And I love Wisconsin. So I like all three of those. But I mean, if you're in New York, you're in New York.

You're deep into New Jersey. Also, it's important. You can live in New York. It's important to understand Green Bay. You shouldn't conflate that with Wisconsin. You think it's its own place? Yeah. It's like the Virgin Islands?

Yeah. It's in the middle. Yeah, it's just like the Virgin Islands. Tax Haven. Yeah. No, no, no. I understand your point. You don't want to be stuck in maybe Green Bay necessarily.

I'm just a weather guy. Yeah. When you're dealing with that Midwest weather for five months. New York's not much better, but at least, you know, you're in a major giant city and you can have some options. It seems like Harba, Whatever he does next, it'll be a big-ass franchise. I think that Colts are too small for him.

Plus, luck's been banged up the last three years. It's got to be like Giants, Bears, Steelers, like just somebody that matters. You want the Bears, Tommy? Isn't he under contract? He'd have to coach Trubisky, though. How long is he admission? Contracts are. Yeah, I understand.

We found out that all contracts are very breakable in college football in the past 12 months. But 50 million, they're going to buy out, you know, tens of millions of dollars. if Harbaal leaves? I get five. It's all play money at this point. Jimbo Fisher just got $75 million guaranteed. Just seems like with college there are no rules at all and anybody can do whatever they want.

There's a lawlessness. Not enough money to pay the players though. Right. Everybody's broke. Exactly. Exactly. Michigan was a rival, right? They were, but when I was in Wisconsin,

the Big Ten realligned. So we only played Michigan my freshman and sophomore year while I was there. And those were the teet for. 4 CA years. So pretty lopsided victories. Rich for us. For us, yeah. So you start playing for the Niners, right as all the CT research and all that stuff,

as people are starting to take it a lot more seriously. I think Sayas death was definitely a tipping point. There's no question. But there was so momentum. And then when you became the first one who was like, I'm out, I'm retiring. People were just stupefied. Yeah. Now I don't think it's as stupefying. But in 2000, what was it?

early 2015. Yeah. People were like, what? Guys walking away. You can play for 12 years. What's he doing? Yeah, I think it was maybe a little early for the public to accept. And to this day, I'm still involved in some advocacy.

And I'll hear people say how courageous it was. And I think they mean well. I think they say, you know, you took your health in your own hands, whatever else. But I just think it's practical. I mean, when the guy, when you aspire to be. like a player who shoots himself in the chest. And then subsequently his autopsy shows a brain riddled with disease. Who here raises their hands, Lex, to play for 15 years.

Now, it's not black and white. Of course, there's more nuance than that. But I don't think it's courageous. I think a lot of guys are beginning to make more pragmatic decisions about it. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I get cast as someone that's like anti-football or think, needs to be banned or something. Brevity is a really simple answer.

Start later. Finish sooner. Hit your head less in the meantime. And I think we'll hopefully not see any tragedies like Sayow if we just do the simple things like that. What was your reaction covering the league when that happened, Kevin? I was stunning because I think we were waiting for someone like that. Yeah.

Just going to walk away because I've said it for years. Why does, you know, Aaron Rogers has made. $100 million. Aaron Rogers knows all the dangers. Why doesn't Aaron Rogers say I'm just gone? And the reason is because, and I know you disagree with this, but it takes a lot of courage to do that. And I know you say it's practical,

but what you did was courageous. And what I'm curious about is, you know, you went to Europe after that. Did you, were you feeling heat or anything? Or did you just want to explore Europe? Or did you want to get away? Or you just became an avatar for, you know, what you said, this sort of anti-football movement.

Were you prepared for that? I was completely unprepared. You know, I thought it would be like a new story for a week. And then it was like an avalanche. I mean, I still get requests to do things about my decision, and it was almost three years ago. Yeah, I went, I did a lot of things I wanted to do, always wanted to do, but couldn't because I was a full-time athlete.

So I did the cliche six weeks backpacking through Europe, ran a marathon, did a bunch of other little fun things, I didn't get a chance to do, traveling and things like that. Yeah, I think, you know, not to oversimplify it, I think, but the media typically paints this binary picture, and they pit people against one another, and it's, are you in this camp or that camp? I think an issue like this has more nuance, and I just got exhausted being the anti-football guy or the concussion guy.

Still, you know, frankly, annoys me, but I think I am in a position to affect some positive of change, helping out with people at BU or elsewhere. And I think some great things have come from it. So how I feel about it aside, I think the landscape's trending towards a healthier landscape. But I'd be careful ever to use the word solution. People throw around the word solution to this problem of head injuries and football. There's likely no solution.

It's likely if people play for a long time, a certain percentage of which will have a brain disease. it's America. You're free to do that. The solution's going to be when they have the test in the moment that can test how much damage there's been already. You can just go in and get a CAT scan and they'd be like, you're at 15% CTE or whatever it is.

And somebody's like, really? All right, I'm out. Yeah. And that'll be it. Yeah, that's a great point. And it's trending in that direction. I think recently there was some folks that said they can test it in living. We'll see.

that's been, those claims have been made before. And the FDA has made those who made those claims retract their statements. Yeah, I think within five or 10 years, we'll have a verifiable genetic test or blood test where we can see. Like you, it'll be like saliva or some. Right.

Yeah, exactly. The other thing that would be a game changer is when, instead of just going into the mysterious blue tent during games that I call the VICA ban, you go in there and they just run this quickie cat scan that's just like, yeah, you just got a concussion. It's a mild one, but you're going to be out for three weeks. Yeah, and they don't have that now.

Now they have the flashlight, like look over here, look over there. Guys are faking their answers half the time. Yeah, and that's assuming that the person administering the test is doing so in good faith. He's being paid by the team. Yeah, exactly. I was baffled by the independent neurologist. The moment you're hired by the NFL, you're not independent, so that makes no sense to me. But there's also a genetic predisposition, so we're finding that out.

And there's been some people in the NFL. the military actually, PTSD is a huge problem. It's closely related at times to blasts and even sub-conclusive blasts if you're firing mortars or heavy artillery. So if we do this genetic test and see who's predisposed to Alzheimer's, APOE4 is the allele, if you are predisposed to those issues, maybe you don't play baseball. Maybe you don't fire the mortars and you're working with computers. I think those are pragmatic steps that make a lot of sense. I think the most interesting thing if they're able to detect CT in the living is the ramifications just to the pipeline. Does a high school get rid of football? Does the state of California say no more public school football

if they're able to test these 16-year-olds and they have what you say 10% CT? Then it becomes a liability issue. Why did you let them on the field? Can they sue if this person gets another concussion, whatever, then colleges. So I think that once you can detect CT in the living that opens up a Pandora's box, I don't think we quite grasp how monumental that can be. You also, what's going to happen is some colleges are going to run from it. 100%. And I think I would predict that in 10 years, the Ivy League does not have football. I think they'll be the first ones that gets out.

And I think the Nesk, all the smart schools will get out. Nescacacques, like Williams, Amherst, all those ones. What about Holy Cross? University of Chicago. Holy Cross will probably kind of hang in until, I mean, they're kind of half out anyway. It's, you know, even for a school like Holy, Holy. Cross, it's like 60, 70 kids, I can't even remember. Yeah.

That if you're giving scholarships for some of them, which Holy Cross doesn't, then you've got to match it on the girl's side. It's expensive. I think people are going to look at this. Like, all right, if we get rid of football, that's 40 less scholarships we have to worry about on the women's side. We don't have to worry about any CT concussion liability. And screw it.

We'll start NCAA flag football. We'll be awesome. Yeah. And even think about the high school level, there's a school in Texas that built a $62 million high school football stadium. But that's the thing. Texas, the South, there's certain places, high school football is not going away. It will never go away in Texas ever at any point.

Texas will secede from America before that happens. They're just not getting rid of it. Florida, same thing. I think anywhere in the South, right? There's some sort of line on the United States map and you just go down and they're just going to have it. And I think like, you know, Oklahoma, Nebraska, they're not getting rid of football. Southern California. I think Southern California. Put down to Long Beach and say no more high school football. See how that goes. Yeah. Long Beach is not going away. No, I don't think so. I think the point I was

trying to illustrate was public dollars. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So what's the ROI on a 70 million dollar high school football stadium? Um, because there was the 62 and now the rival school bills was an even bigger, better one. With like giant scoreboards, right? Yeah. It's occupied eight to ten times a year. Yeah. It's a huge waste of money. Um, and it's a huge waste of money. Um, and it's public dollars. So I think age of start is one concern, but then maybe... They also have the cheerleading, the cheerleading, so maybe it's 11 times a year. And the tickets are 50,000 bucks of pop, so they can pay for it. No, I think maybe privatizing the game more so, kind of modeled after clubs of European

soccer or elsewhere. Because every dollar you put into that $70 million high school football stadium is one that's not going to schools and that's not going to health care on and on and on. Yeah, the one thing about the European model is the onus is on the professional team to develop their own guys. And at some point, the NCAA is going to say, why are we, why do we exist only as a developmental pipeline for the NFL? And to take bribes. And to take bribes and get Jimbo Fisher $75 million in guaranteed money. To make tons of money from TV deals. Yeah, I can't say high school football totally going away. I can see a lot of college football going away.

A lot of it. Like a lot. And even the economics kind of makes sense for it to go away because, like, for example, there's no college MMA, is there? Do we have college mixed martial arts? Just bar fights. Just bar fights. Do we have college boxing? We don't.

Well, we used to. In Wisconsin had a tremendous program. They won a series of national championships. A player died in the ring. And that's what precipitated the fall of college boxing. And Teen Wolf 2, that was the other. I don't know if you guys saw Teen Wolf 2, 30 years ago. College boxing movie.

The only college boxing movie ever. Really? Yeah, we talked about testing. If there's testing, you can see on a year-by-year basis, players developing a disease, tragically ironic that at places of higher education, we're seeing them not only okaying, but it's their cash cow,

is this activity that gives their students a brain disease. And I don't see how that's not like boxing. I think lacrosse is in trouble too. LaCross has like a sneaky amount of not only concussions, but just really bad collisions and hockey. Hockey is another one. Hockey, they've figured out it seems like how to make safer. Just don't fight.

Don't fight. That's a big one. And also like don't make runs at guys from behind. They've done tweaks that have made the game faster and less violent. But at the same time, you know, in the NHL's case, I think it's definitely hurt the popularity of the sport a little bit because people like the violence. Yeah, absolutely. They wanted like scores to be settled and all that is what I grew up.

There are people inside the NFL who think a lot of the ratings decline has been it's just less violent and people like violence. Well, they would have liked last night. Yeah. Jesus. Record ratings. Yeah, that's, it's kind of a catch-22 because these rules they're trying to make, I would be angry as a linebacker.

Yeah. So if we're going to do something inherently dangerous, be honest about the costs, ensure players better, guaranteed contracts in the NFL, on and on, all these things we can do. But don't, you know, make this claim about the game and then put the onus on me as a player to solve it. You know, I don't think it's fair to players on both ends. Did players reach out to you after you walked away, like almost that you had the balls and they didn't? kind of emails or text or was it more like what the after you're doing or was it both everything yeah um it mirrored what i'd experience from outside the game too there was people supportive there was

people critical there was people indifferent um what i will say from inside the game is whether or not a player knows really what's going on um they understand at least on a experiential or visceral level what it's like um so fans will just throw out anything i i'm not very active on social media just because I think it's this like cesspool of people who don't know what they're talking about. Yeah. Just projecting on to you. From within the game, though, even guys who disagreed said, you know, I get it, bro, but I'm going to keep playing.

Former players has been really revelatory to me. So to hear, you know, after Dwight Clark got his diagnosis with ALS, I shot him a text saying, you know, I'm sorry if anything I've said over these past two years has caused you undue stress. You know, I'd spoken out and said some really critical things publicly, you know, while he was dealing with that. And he shot back right away, saying, thanks for your support. You know, one guy having my condition makes your decision make perfect sense.

And I was blown away for him to be empathetic in that situation. Yeah, I think more and more we're seeing this, unfortunately, come to fruition with the cost of playing for a long time. And it's not talked about because we talk about how it's getting safer at the moment. But this is a disease and an issue that plays out over decades. And for the first time, we're seeing guys, my dad was a college football player. He played in the early 70s. He didn't start until high school. They played eight games a year in Wisconsin on big, heavy, thick grass with light equipment, and everybody was slower and smaller. You know, we played 15 a year when I was in high school. We went out of state to hit in the offseason. He played college football. You know, their preseason was two weeks. Ours was four. We had 15 bowl practices, 15 spring ball practices. So I think over the next 25 to 50 years, we'll see a generation. generations of players that just hit their head thousands more times than my dad's generation. You know, it makes me sad, but we have to deal with it. It's not going to, ignoring it, it's not going to do anything.

What's that drill when they have the two guys lined up in the small space? It's amazing that drill still exists. Yeah. They should just change that name to concussion from Oklahoma. I mean, seriously, it's just like, here's a structure car crash for the next half hour. But 20 years ago, that was like the drill. It was like, all right, let's find who are the men on this team? Bull in the ring and all of those.

We used to do a drill at Wisconsin called Badger, where two guys would line up a yard and a half from one another and just try to drive one another. It's how we would start a practice that we wanted to be especially physical. Yeah. So coach blows the whistle after warmups and says Badger drill and everybody comes just to 100 guys just to hit. It doesn't make any better football.

It doesn't improve your, improve you in coverage. It doesn't improve your run fits. It doesn't make you more physical. It just causes injuries. So that barbaric, senseless drills like the nutcracker and bowl in the ring and badger, I think we're seeing them phased out. It's past due, honestly. It's silly to do something that would make you better at your sport, just to be tough. We're going to stop doing them in the office. The drills are out. We can't stop Oklahoma. We found some good interns. We got pulling the ring. We got pulling the ring running over there. Have you ever been at one of the practices where they've done those?

Yeah. Like close up? Yeah. I mean, it's, it's brutal. It's always the best hard knocks moment of whatever the first or second episode is. The worst thing, I think, in NFL practices are how cavalier they are about when a guy gets hurt. And everybody pretends like the guy wasn't hurt. I remember it was a Giants practice a couple years ago.

And this guy, like, clearly like either blew out his knee or whatever. And it was just like, guy moved out of the way. Pull him off the field. And it's like, that guy's, I was. members are like an undrafted guy's like that guy's like livelihood might be over forever and yeah the the modus operata here's we don't care yeah that was shocking to me when I got to college um in high school if a kid got hurt practice would stop the trainer'd come out in college it was moving 15 up yep um sometimes the play you know if it was a broken play would almost go back into the guy

who's still there writhing in pain torn legament um you're still here yeah yeah i mean it's uh wow did you ever say the movie rollerball I haven't, no. It came out in 1974. How many movies have you seen? That's what I do. I'm an only child. James Conn.

And it was in the future. Have you seen it? Wasn't there a remake? Yeah, I saw the remake on cable. We're not discussing the remake. James, it's basically this futuristic sport that's like football. And the guys is modeled after kind of the roller derby, but football. And there's guys on bikes and just trying to get around.

And it's violent like football. is and it starts getting more and more violent. And eventually they just decided to get rid of the rules. And it's like a whole parallel of basically it's a movie about the NFL, but it's not. And then the last thing, it's like basically last man standing wins. And James Kahn's like the last guy. But like everybody's dead. So this is 1974.

And this is like, we're going to make this movie about football, but it's not really about football. So obviously they knew in the 70s because then you, watched North Dallas 40 and same thing like Nick Nolte is the lead character this was 1979 yeah I'm familiar with he's he's basically he based his character off of Fred Blutnikoff from the Raiders and Dave Casper who's their tight end and you know the first scene he's like barely can get out of bed yeah pops like 10 pills he's drinking everyone and then teams crazy and so they knew this 40 years ago is my point they knew that football

was bad and they knew that guys were behaving radically and that was it and the game became more popular. Yeah. And I don't think in spite of the violence, but because of it. Yeah. And yeah, in other ways, we've known for a hundred years, dementia pugilistica, which is the first cousin of CT was discovered in boxers in 1928. It doesn't take a lot to extrapolate repetitive head injury from the ring to the gridiron. So I think we've known, I'm not one to, I don't, not in favor of an any state. If you want to play, I think you should absolutely have the opportunity. And I don't, I get being a fan. I feel the same way, by the way. Yeah. I don't think we have to hold players' hands. I don't think we have to make decisions for people. I do think information's still being

manipulated fairly insidiously. I think players are intentionally kept in the dark. I have never once been invited by any football entity, NCAA, NFL, Big Ten, anybody to speak about what I'm I learned. Well, they don't want to hear from you. No, exactly. And if you were a confident, assured organization and someone made a decision that was counter to what you're saying publicly,

you would say, oh, okay, come speak to us, tell us what you didn't learn, tell the players, inform them. It's basically like if it was cigarettes 50 years ago, they wouldn't be like, hey, this guy had lung cancer and quit, and now he wants to talk to you about cigarettes. Exactly. No, he's not talking. Yeah, yeah.

Get him out of here. And I completely understand, but I'm just making the point that, you know, I still think inside the game, players are told one thing that's not entirely true. So you're really skeptical of team doctors because I am too. Oh, yeah. You know, how is the team paying its own doctor to, if I'm a player, I'm getting examined by somebody being paid by the team and it's in their interest for me to get me out there

back out there as fast as possible. How is that good for me? You know, Dracula's running the blood bank. That's what we used to say sometimes. And if you look at a dock in the team docs before the game, they're slipping on their pull over. they're putting on their cap, they're pumped up. They love it.

They want to beat, you know, they want to beat the other team. Yeah. They love it. Most guys probably wish they were on the team or had played. And then they're in charge of your health, aside from the financial, who they're paid by and everything. It's about winning. I don't know if there's any way to have independent docs truly, because at some juncture

you're going to be hired by somebody whose interest is football. So my thing is broader. You know, I think just open science and just. telling everybody what the issue is, if we can have these tests and guys can play for three or four years at the dangerous positions like linebacker, I think if you avoid a catastrophic injury, most guys who played a short period of time will likely be okay, or at least won't have symptoms that are traumatic. Hopefully, we don't know. But yeah, I don't think we need to throw away the baby with the bathwater. Football has been great to me. Any given Sunday,

that was another, that was 20 years ago. James Woods, the team doctor. It was like what you were talking about. Get them back on, give him a shot. That's all they care about is getting the guys back on the field. I once was having my hand worked on and my wrist re-taped. And so this was during halftime and didn't have a third hand to take my other tortall pill. So the dock opened it and put it in my mouth for me. And I just thought, yeah, shit.

Like, that's a piece of meat. I started writing about the torridals in my column like seven, eight years ago. because I didn't even know about it until, and I did some research on it, how just, first of all, super addictive. Second of all, really potent. It's like having 40 Tylenol's at the same time. It's unbelievable.

And they're popping them, and I just could not believe that they were legal, but pot wasn't. It's like insanity. Nobody can justify that, never. No, it, I think part of that policy, maybe the fact that, you know, NCAA and NFL fan base is from a lot of, lot of conservative places where marijuana is still taboo.

Yeah, you're right. But yeah, a lot of guys leave football, even at the high school level and definitely a college and pro with acute addiction to painkillers. You would have thought after Brett Farv's basically whole life was ruined by it as he was playing, as he was a giant star, that it would have at least been like a wake-up call, but it wasn't. Brett Farv seemed fine. He was the fun guy who was going out there throwing 50-yard touchdowns even when he was 40 years old.

And so I think that if Brett Farrf had had a more public flameout, and it wasn't just early in his career, you know, he looked like a success. You mean like a dick-pick scandal? He looked like a success story more than anything else because of the way the media portrayed Favv. It wasn't a sad story to most people, I don't think. Now he's kind of M. I'm actually, I don't know if there's... No, there's a... Yeah. I don't know if there's good...

I've seen his appearance. He's a step slow. Yeah. Well, he told Matt Lauer a couple years ago and he didn't remember his daughter playing a season of soccer. We never know what to do with the legends who aren't as in good shape. Like Ali, when Ali was like the guy for my generation. And when all of a sudden he became obviously there was something wrong and his hands shaking. And then they're like, he has Parkinson syndrome.

And everybody like wrote it. It's like that dude doesn't have Parkinson syndrome. That dude got hit a cajillion times and his brain doesn't work anymore. Like why are we trying to pretend? Yes, he came down miraculously with some disease that mirrors punch drunk syndrome. It's amazing what we're willing to ignore. Mike Webster is the only Hall of Fame football player ever to go to Wisconsin. And his plaque sits outside of our locker room.

And it lists all of his accomplishments. And he was iron Mike. It was incredible what he did. It doesn't have one mention of anything else. Yeah. And you kind of hear these like rumors, at least we did as players, like what became of Mike Webster. And to have that omitted, I mean, I understand they're trying to get recruits and they're trying to inspire players. But, you know, you shouldn't play football at Wisconsin and not know.

about Mike Webster's demise. Wow. That's amazing. The concussion movie was disappointing. That set us back a couple years. A little flat. I thought artistically it was a great chance. Wolf Smith in there.

They gave him a weird accent. Still haven't had our moment. We haven't had like the smoking gun. I think people know, but they're at the same time, it seems like a lot of people are kind of annoyed by football coverage now. I feel like even when we're writing the stuff for the ringer and writing my column, like so much of it's negative. That's why last week with the Eli Manning story, when he got benched, it was like this old school football story that was like the story that, oh, this is a good story.

Should they have benched him? I feel bad for Eli. And it had none of the kind of baggage that seems to come with every football. And then last night, Steelers Bengals, and then it's all back. And we're back in this abyss of just arguing the morality of the game. Yeah. It's like how long can you have a conversation about an existential crisis? It gets pretty exhausting quickly.

Yeah. I mean, it kind of mirrors Trump in politics right. No, people are like kind of, you become numb after a while. Yeah. I'm curious, Chris, you know, you used the term willful, willful ignorance earlier. And I've seen a lot of interviews. You say there's sort of a willful ignorance that exists in all football. If you could change one thing about just the education process, you know, even if it's, you know, adding a second plaque on Mike Webster's, you know, Hall of Fame thing in Madison, what would you change about just sort of the football education process for the kids coming up?

Well, with the kids coming out, are you talking about guys going from college to pro? Yeah, or high school to college. I mean, just any, with their program, you know. Yeah, I think they talk about bringing in independent health professionals during the active game. I think bringing in independent researchers to address teams and conferences and leagues. Independent, how? How do those people become independent? It's tough, yeah.

We almost need a sports czar that works for the president. that has a slush fund. Or we just have, you know, Anne McKee and Boston just talk to all the rookies. That's not hard. That's exactly what I was going to propose. Dr. McKee has done autopsies on hundreds of brains. She has maintained complete objectivity. She grew up in Wisconsin as a diehard Packers fan.

I think she's really altruistic. She's faced incredible scrutiny and frankly abuse by people for simply doing her job as a pathologist. psychologist. I think Anne talking to high school college and pro players would enlighten a lot of players. You know, education is really low. I mean, guys don't even understand that the brain sits unfastened within the skull. I didn't know that. I didn't have really considered it while I was a player. There's a million things like that from biomechanics of injuries, just to the idea of subconcussive hits on and on and on. Players are getting this information from team docs. they're getting it from not the highest quality media sources.

So getting it straight from people like Dr. McKee, which would be a hard process to figure out, would enlighten a lot of players. And whether or not you choose to quit before you, why you still have time to play is a moot point. I think as long as you understand the potential ramifications, that's important. Guys have said they do, and I'm...

We're not there yet. I'm baffled because there's never a follow-up question. You know, an interviewer will say to, you know, a JJ Watt or I saw Emmanuel Ocho write a piece for Players Tribune a couple last year, I think. And basically the sentiment is we know what we're getting ourselves into. Quantify it. Yeah. Cite one study. Say something more than we get it because I would have said the same thing in August of 2014.

We've at least reached the concussions are bad level of knowledge. I think we're going to hit a point with awareness and research that if players keep playing, it's not going to be any different than if you decide to race a car at 190 miles an hour, if you decide to do any other sort of day, if you decide to skydive or whatever, which is a good place to be. I think what bothers me is where we were 10 years ago, where we started to know a lot of this stuff and the league was trying to cover it up. And Tommy Maddox missed one game with the spinal contusion.

Yeah, and it was just getting back out. And then, you know, when it was Alan Schwartz, I think, was the first one really right and bad. Then Gladwell had pig piled on and then started really good momentum last decade. And there was a three-year stretch there with the NFL. It was just like, no, these guys are wrong. I don't know what they're. It's really kind of crazy when you look back. Now at least the NFL's agreeing that.

CT is bad, concussions are bad, but they're still trying to shove it. They can spin everything. They're spinning it and shoveling it. Last year or the year before, concussions went up 15 or 20%. And you look at those numbers and you say, holy crap. But they said, oh, no, that's a good thing because it just means we're diagnosing them better. And so everything, it's like we were talking about earlier, everything, the narrative is we're on this steady march to a safer game. And the problem is the game is still the game. Well, and the guys are still running 20 to 20. 25 miles an hour and colliding into a...

And getting faster and bigger. So weight limits are something that I think would help with this. I do think, like, not positive we need. We talk 300-pound linemen. I'm not sure we need 275-pound middle linebackers. And I'm not sure we need tight ends that are 270. And there are subtle things we can do with to at least remove some of the force, right? I think so.

You get into splitting hairs with that, though, because I'm thinking from a defensive players perspective, you know, we ran a 3-4 at Wisconsin, my senior year, and with the 49ers, we like to drop a 290-pound de-linment into coverage at times. Yeah. You know, linebacker D-Line is kind of a moniker. It's not necessarily.

So how you would regulate that would get complicated. Yeah. You know, you could call a guy a delinman and then come out in a 335 stack and he's playing linebacker. Sure. Body fat percentage meters. You could have front seven. You group it as a front seven.

Front seven. Front seven. But this is treating the symptom and not the root problem. The root problem being the sport of football? Yeah. I mean, truly. And I'm with Bill. Like, it's dangerous.

Let's find out exactly how dangerous it is. Curb it as much as we can. Drop this BS about a solution. You know, people smoke cigarettes. I've got plenty of friends that smoke cigarettes. You can do that if you'd like. Football is much the same. Kevin does whip it.

We know those are bad for him. I'm not sure what a whip it. You don't know what a whip it is? I know what it is. When you take the whipped cream can and you spin it so the gas comes out. I'm from Florida. We just drink. We just drink like a crocodile.

That's true. That's like too ambitious for Florida. It's too. There's nothing in Florida that's high concept at all. Just a whiskey and land shark beer and Jimmy Buffett. So what you haven't done? When was the last time you did an interview? It's been a while, right?

It's been a while. I've done very little media. How come? You know, I just want to stay out of them. I'm not interested in fame and have plenty of money. So I've enjoyed this very much. Thank you for having me. But yeah, I'm not eager to do self-promotion.

And when are you working on now? You told me in private, but you can say private. Yeah, yeah. We wrapped up, I'm excited about this. We wrapped up a first of its kind study at the University of Wisconsin with a researcher named Richie Davidson, who's famous for proving that meditation changes your brain physiologically. So 10 years ago, Richie put Tibetan,

monks in fMRI machines and had them meditate and actually for the first time we had an image of how meditation changes your brain how does it change your brain um it improves i can't get into the neuroscience of it but it improves resiliency outlook positivity i need all of those things no it's incredible i'll send you some things i know kevin does i need it badly yeah richie uh one thing he likes to talk about is this is a skill we can train as like you'd train a golf swing um and so we put together a pilot study with former NFL players. We had 17 guys go through it. It was really successful. And now I've just replicated that curriculum with active college athletic department. So we're getting started. You know, I think it's a life skill that everybody should have, just a little bit of meditation

each day. And I think it works directly with athletics, but really just holistically for the whole person. It's stressful to be a college athlete. It's certainly stressful to be a pro athlete. I think this is a tool that can help players on and off the field. my son watches YouTube videos of pranks and that's not the same thing as meditation right people getting paint dumped on them and it's the opposite yeah i don't even know how to go wait i'm trying to figure where i'd meditate in my house with the stuff my kids watch and the three dogs barking yeah exactly i think i just need to move out maybe that out meditate and just be peaceful oh where's dad he left home he doesn't live here anymore

he's not here i'm curious you know i read some of your interviews and you seem to have a pretty understanding of the mechanics of the brain. And I'm curious, is that something you studied when you left? Is it something you're already studying with the NFL? And that's why you got out early. I mean, when did you sort of dive into the medical aspect of the human brain? Not until my rookie year. Yeah. I was a history and international affairs major. I wanted to go to law school. So I had very little science background, but began looking into it. I mean, when it pertained to my career, that potentially would cost me millions of dollars. I wanted to be sure I had. I got it right.

Yeah. And then on top of that, the human brain is the most fascinating thing in the universe. It's absolutely incredible. Meeting Richie has been an enlightening experience. He's a personal confidant of the Dalai Lama who's figured out we can train ourselves to be more resilient, happier, et cetera, et cetera. Positive psychology and effective neuroscience are a hobby of mine. I don't know if I'll go back to school for it.

That'd be like starting from square one, but it's amazingly. fascinating. Dolly Lama on the pod? Let's get him. Can we get the Dalai Lama on a pod? I mean, the invitations, but we offered him a pod. When I'm in the Ringer podcast network, if he ever wants to do it. We are from the golf show. Wait, we got one more thing before we go. You played with Kaepernick. Did you ever think he would become the face of this whole generation for social protest

and the guy who potentially flipped the NFL on its ass? I never would have expected it. Cap is really demure. self-effacing quiet for him to take this stance. I know at times he's been kind of cast as searching for seeking the limelight or wanting attention. That's not him. It's genuine. I think what he's done is powerful and meaningful.

I love and support him. You talk to him ever or not? No, not in years. Yeah, it seems like it started from just him sitting and not making a big deal out of it. but I do think he's probably changed as a person that has gone along in a good way. He didn't publicize it when he sat down. That's what I mean.

At all. The NFL network is asked him about it after he did it for a second or third time. But I think now he's embracing a little bit more. I think it started as this thing that he just felt strongly about, he wasn't going to make a big deal out of it. Now I think he sees the kind of power of the platform. I agree.

And I don't think you can be lukewarm about activism. So Harry Edwards is a consultant. with the 49ers. He's a former Black Panther, and I know he's talked with Cap. I thought he's, Cap's done an incredible job. For people that criticize him,

he's literally traveling the country, teaching young people their constitutional rights. Yeah. You couldn't do anything more American than that. He's donated over a million dollars in his own money. It's not like he's been going on like Jimmy Fallon,

Bill Maher, and like just like being trying to get this second life. Yeah. No, not at all. And, you know, it's cast as being anti-military.

as if people involved in the military aren't subject to racial discrimination. You know, the military draws from a huge cross-section of our society. I've got two brothers in the military, one of whom's in Baghdad right now. And they are fighting and have fought for his right to do that. Yeah. It's a shame that what he's done has been painted as anti-military. To me, that's just a fault. That's a false narrative.

Yeah, some people. Because it touches every life what he's done. It has, the one thing it has shown is how the flag and patriotism and sports, I think, goes so much deeper than maybe we had realized. Oh, yeah. The Department of Defense paid to have demonstrations at NFL games. Yeah. I mean, it really is like a little bit of a cottage industry with sports.

Exactly. Yeah. Nobody wants to admit that part. But some of it is super genuine, obviously. Other parts seems a little like the NFL definitely exploits it a little bit. Oh yeah. But just in general, like people

there's some people who are like you have to stand for the flag. I feel that way when I go to games. I hate when people don't take their hats off. You know, it bothers me. It's like, take your fucking hat off. They're singing national anthem. Like it hits everybody differently and I think this whole thing that happened. Yeah, I think

kneeling was a good move versus sitting. I know he consulted with the name is escaping me right now, but the Green Beret, yeah. Yeah. I think that was a reverent tone to take while still retaining his protest, yeah. I agree. Chris Bono, thanks for coming on.

My pleasure, Bill. Thank you. Kevin Carco is a pleasure.