The Ringer NFL Show - The Giants Traded OBJ?! And More Transaction Reactions | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: March 13, 2019

The Giants shipped Odell Beckham Jr. to the Browns, the Jets signed Le’Veon Bell, the Raiders dealt for Antonio Brown, the Ravens landed Earl Thomas, and more roster news from around the league. Hosts: Robert Mays and Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, Robert Mays here. We were supposed to have a special crossover episode of the Ringer NFL show and the Rewatchables today. But as you probably know, some big things happen in the NFL over the past 24 hours. We're doing an emergency podcast instead. Look for our Rewatchables episode right here on this feed next Monday. To hold you over until then, we have several other sports rewatchables running across the Ringer podcast network.

On Monday, Bill Simmons had Joe House and Chris Ryan on the Bill Simmons podcast. Take a look back at Game 6 of the 2016 NBA. Western Conference Finals between the Golden State Warriors and the Oklahoma City Thunder. Tomorrow, Michael Bauman and Mallory Rubin discussed game six of the 2011 World Series between the Texas Rangers and the St. Louis Cardinals on the Ringer MLB show feed. And on Friday, tune to the best man show feed to hear David Shoemaker and special guest, Zach Linder unpack WrestleMania 30. Be sure to check out those wherever you get your podcast.

To the Ringer NFL show. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark. How you doing, buddy? I thought we were a smarter league than this. I didn't think we were a smarter league than this, but I still didn't expect to kick off this show by talking about the Giants giving away Odell Beckham to the Brouts. For no reason.

None at all. No, zero. I understand that we can make, we're going to get into this. You can talk about how the Giants needed to maybe start a rebuild. This is how they do it. That doesn't matter. We're way past that.

They could have done it a year ago. They gave Odell Beckham $21 million in cash this year, just to give him away. And they also drafted a running back, the shortest shelf life of any position, second overall less than a year ago. They're going to give Eli Manning a $22 million cap hit. I understand.

There are so many elements of this that you can say, well, you know, now they're going to start over. The giants have $26 million in cap space. The giants do not have the roster to start over. This entire thing, I feel like people are going to do so many gymnastics to try to defend it, and it's really difficult to defend.

You know, there was a report, SportsN, New York had it. I'll read the quote from a source. He'd become too much of a pain in the ass, and there was a real fear that eventually it would get worse. So you're essentially giving away your best player for 45 cents in the dollar. I can't really figure out the exchange rate there, because there's a real fear that eventually it would get worse. Let's not talk about eventually.

Let's talk about immediately. you know who's much worse, the Giants. Now, not O'Dow Beckham's attitude or whatever. And by the way, I'm not even sure. Odo Beckham's work ethic has never been in question. He works his butt off. I mean, I have a million anecdotes about that. I don't understand it.

They don't like him because every once in a while, he punches a net, and he gets mad at Eli Manning. By the way, when he threw that touchdown last year, it was the longest air yard touchdown by the Giants in almost a year. So when he says Eli Manning can't throw it on the field, not only is he correct in his criticism, but he himself can throw it further than Eli Manning. I just, I don't have a horse in this race.

I don't have a dog in this fight. Whatever animal analogy you want to throw out there, I don't know, whatever it is you'd like to do. I don't care. I don't root for an NFL team. But I just like, like a smarter league. I like progress and thinking about things logically.

And this is, and I would include the Antonio Brown deal a little bit in this. This is just a step in the wrong direction. If you were on a team and you were one of the best receivers in the league and you wanted to win, wouldn't you also become a little bit frustrated if you saw the team continuously devote resources and time and emotional energy to Eli Manning? I think that would drive me pretty insane. And that's the whole thing with this, is that it feels like the giants for the last several years

have chosen to side with Eli Manning over logic and making their team better and making the right choices. It's happened time and time again. And at a certain point, I just don't understand how much longer can keep happening. Is Eli going to be the quarterback there next year now? I mean, I assume they're going to draft somebody. But this still just, there's no way I don't think you can absolutely,

actually defend it. I don't think you can make a reasonable case for why this was even a slightly good move. It's literally like those situations where the coach's son is the quarterback. Yes. That's exactly what it is. And they're just like, well, we got to, we got a roll with our guy here. And everybody else in the team is like, are you joking me here? It's just absurd.

If I were an owner and someone came to me and said, we're going to trade our best player for a first round pick, an okay safety, and the second best Brown's third round pick, I would tell, I would say first get out of my office. Also, I wouldn't, I'd probably be on a yacht somewhere, but I would also maybe fire the person. Also, the best part of this, in my opinion, not the best part, but one of my favorite parts is that the Giants decided not to franchise Landon Collins for $11 million because he's a box safety, which is exactly what your bro peppers is. So great.

That's the part of this that I just, there's so many conflicting elements to the choices they've made over the last couple years that there's no coherent plan. There's no cohesion between any two choices that they've made. And that's why I don't think you can even spin this as some grand rebuilding plan and the start of it because that's not how this has been at all. It's just been scattershot decisions that have no unifying factor to them. So we don't talk enough about, we talk so much about something like, you know, like Alley Fitzgerald, whoever, where he has really crappy quarterback play and yet he thrives in, even despite that, right? O'Dell Beckham Jr. is a guy who's thrived despite quarterback play. PFF had this number last night. I don't know if you saw it. Odell saw an accurate pass on 50% of his targets last year that is dead last. among wide receivers. Wow.

So now you're going to have Baker Mayfield. I know Baker Mayfield. Who, by the way, from week nine on, this is the same stat, was fourth most accurate in the entire league. O'Dell Beckham,

and by the way, let's unpack this further. If you're going to trade O'Dell Beckham, don't trade him to one of the most exciting teams in the league where he's going to torch you and everyone's going to have a great time watching them. No. If you're going to trade out of L. Beckham,

trade him to like, Arizona. Arizona. Yeah. Some boa. I mean, Kyler might be excited. Just,

you know, Jacksonville. Sure. Trade him to Jacksonville. I haven't played with Nick Foles. So let's talk about this from the Brown's perspective

just very quickly. Because the same way you can't really defend it from the Giants perspective, I feel like there's really no way to overstate how good the Brown's last couple of weeks have been and how their last year has been. Because if you're looking at the O'Dell Beckham contract,

and he does no restructuring, which we'll see if he does or, obviously I'm talking, Tonyo Brown did, but I think that's a different situation on a couple different levels. So let's say he does restructure a little bit, but even if he doesn't, you have Odell Beckham on most likely a really reasonable deal. You still have a ton of cap space. You have Baker Mayfield. You have Nick Chubb.

You now, the offensive line, they have Austin Corbett stepping in for Zayler, so it's not a huge deal. I mean, there's some questions there, but you can still see the pieces kind of unfolding and coming into play. And you have a defense that now has Sheldon Richardson and Olivier Vernon with money to spend at safety. it's nuts. I mean, they have done an incredible job of rebuilding this roster. John Dorsey deserves a ton of credit. But I think we also should realize that John Dorsey could do a lot of this because he had the draft picks and the cap space to do it with the way that Sashi Brown set up that franchise.

It's not one or the other. And Paul DiPedastro. Absolutely. I mean, that kind of brain trust of guys really put John Dorsey in a good spot. And John Dorsey has used the resources at his disposal in a way that other teams made. not. It's an impressive job all around from essentially everyone involved. And now, I mean, I'm not going to say they're the Super Bowl favorite. There's something silly like that, but they are a genuinely interesting team when it comes to kind of ticking off the contenders in the AFC. I think they're

the NFC North favorite. I absolutely think they do. I think they're the AFC North favorites. And I wrote this last night. I think we've gone from wondering where the good Browns moves are to wondering what's going to hold them back from being a real contender. That's how far the pendulum has swung in the past calendar year. Yeah, you know, let's unpack the John Dorsey thing. So I had a nice conversation with him right before last season. And we talked a little bit about why he went out and he got some of those players that maybe people were scratching their heads about. Someone like Demeris Randall at that point, Tyrod Taylor, some of the Jarvis Langerie was another one people were scratching their heads on.

And his point was it accelerated the rebuild because you don't have to overpay guys to come anymore. Yes. And if you're not going to do it, if you're going to be, his one criticism of Sashi Brown was they got way too young. And it's really hard to build on top of that because if you're going to start paying someone like a Sheldon Richardson, you're going to have to kind of pay a tax because they're going to be the one person who's above 23 and the team's going to suck. If you show them something in 2018, then in 2019, you're not going to have to do the classic bad team overpay. this has been executed from the time essentially he was hired in December, I think, of 2017 until now, almost flawless. And I'm just super impressed with that front office. I know it's the Browns.

There's still an opportunity. There could be a screw up along the way. But John Dorsey has crushed exactly what's been put in front of him. And at this point, you know, it's a joke to assign this stuff. But right now, he's my 2019 executive of the year. just based on on the last couple of days. That's a really good point. And I think if you looked at the deals they made last year,

they're still paying that tax, right? The contract they gave to Jarvis Landry is an overpay, something like that. But then you look at some of the deals they've signed now, the Shelton Richardson one isn't really. That's what his market value more or less is. And we'll see what happens with Odo Beckham and how much money he's going to want.

A year ago, them trading for Odo Beckham probably comes with Odo Beckham saying, fuck this. I have no interest in being here. He may have pulled at Antonio Brown and just been like, I'm not going. Yes. But now. This time last year.

I think there are two factors that play into him not doing that. One, Baker Mayfield is the quarterback. Of all, I understand the going older and bringing in the veterans and all of this stuff. The number one factor that makes the Cleveland Browns an attractive destination right now for free agents and players is Baker Mayfield full stop. Yep. Yep. Two, who is O'Donbeckham's best friend? Yeah.

It's Jarvis Landry. I guarantee you he is more willing to be there because Jarvis Landry is there. And I know that's a specific situation, but... It's not Eli Manning. It is not Eli Manning. So while Oda Becker may be seeking out a new contract, I feel like that may just be a matter of, you know, you guys aren't paying me very much and the cap numbers are relatively low. You know, can you just give me a little bit more money right now, a little bit more guaranteed,

a new signing bonus, things like that? But it's not as if it's they're paying that tax again. They're really having to go over the top because it's not a place he wants to be. So, yeah, I mean, it's hard to argue with any of... the moves they made because they've all kind of played into other moves. And they really do have a solid roster all around and just kind of figuring out creative ways to do it, right? We've always loved this. We love player trades just because it helps you do things you wouldn't have been able to do in free agency. Olivier Vernon for $15.5 million this year with essentially no guaranteed

money on his deal for most of the rest of this contract, that's a huge win when you consider what some of these other guys are getting on the market. So Darius Smith just got a hell of a lot more money per year than Olivier Vernon did. I'm intrigued to see when we talk about the O'DL trade, or the O'Dell contract rather, I'm intrigued to see how much Antonio Brown changed the game as far as just saying, we're not adding years, we're just adding money. Yeah. And how often now that's going to happen, how often that players are just going to say,

you know what, the market's changed. And now I want more money. And I think, which is not unreasonable. can do that. No, of course. I mean, I saw a point I've tried to make it, and I'm just not articulate. But Greg Rosenthal said it the other day. It's so odd that when you start thinking about the NFL free agent market or NFL player

market in general, the mid-tier players have to set the market because they're the only ones who ever reach free agency. And so then the star players see the free agent market and then work off of that. And so it's never actually, O'Dell Beckham, having a true. bidding war and sending the market like that. It's always someone middling, you know, quarterback market. Kurt Cousins is probably the best free agent quarterback, you know, this side of Peyton Manning. And that was obviously a different deal. But it's never, it's never Aaron Roders hitting the open market. It's never even someone like Matt Ryan hit

in the open market. It's the mid-level guys who set the agenda for the top-level guys. And now I'm intrigued to see how often the top-level guys ask for more money with no extra years. I think that's still relatively new, though. Because this year even feels like a slight departure from what we've seen in years past. Last year, there were a couple guys that I feel like went close to, I mean, Nate Soder did. And I think there may have been one or two more. But I don't think, I don't think, I don't think Clay. Soder was elite of the elite.

No, he's not. But that's what I'm saying. He makes your point. But I think this year, I mean, last year there may have been one or two. This year, there have been way more than that. Trent Brown resets the left tackle market. Landon Collins resets the safety market. C.J. Mosley resets the line.

backer market after Kwan Alexander did. Matt, excuse me, Mitch Morse resets the center market. Juan James resets the right tackle market. That's new. That doesn't happen every single season in free agency. I feel like a couple years ago, remember what all those wide receiver deals were getting handed out? And Julio and Des and Demeris Thomas got all of those contracts kind of in succession.

Those guys were still setting the wide receiver market when they were getting those deals, even though they weren't hitting free agency. So with all of the money, available in the market right now because of the rising cap, it feels like that's caused the shift to these guys that do hit free agency really pumping up the market. I still think it's in the last two or three years we've seen this. It's newish. Yeah. No, I mean, it's just the lack of absolute who's the best free agent in the modern era? Is it in Dama Kinsu? Yes. I think he was the biggest, like, changing teams free agent that we've seen. Like Reggie White was the first

year of free agency and he was just a special case and teams hadn't really figured anything out yet. So I would say Sue is probably the best free agent of all time. But yeah, I just the biggest one. At least I mean, the one that we talked about the most, the one that was going to get the biggest deal. We saw he got the biggest deal. Right. Um, yeah. So it's free agency in the NFL is still a bizarre, bizarre thing. Um, I don't really think teams understand it that well as, as we're finding out. We're going to get into some of the surprising moves that teams mates. We're going to talk about a kind of team by team in terms of the ones that we expected to be active, the ones that we didn't expect and necessarily do what they did. Before we do that,

though, let's quickly talk about Livion Bell and what he ended up getting from the Jets. This is very predictable to me. I just thought that every aspect of how we saw this go down is how I expected it to go down. There were some aspects of free agency that shocked me. I was shocked to see the money that a guy like Trent Brown got. I was shocked to see the money that a guy like Kwan Alexander got, but the bell trade, it was not surprising to me. This is about the money. It's about the market. Every aspect of it is like, yep, this makes sense. Yeah, totally agree. I mean, I, again, I made the case a couple of days ago for maybe a contender going out and splurgeoning on Levi-on-Bel, but then at the end of the conversation, I said,

oh, by the way, he's going to the Jets, because this was the Jetsiest move possible. I had a ton of cap space. You know, I, again, I found Levyon Bell to be underrated. I just in the Frayette market just in a world where we're paying someone like C.J. Mosley, $85 million. I just, I don't value running backs at all, but I understand the sort of market forces that would make Leveon Bell an affordable option, even at $15 million year, whatever it is. Yeah, none of this surprised me. The Jets got marginally better. I don't think that they're, you know, AFCEs contenders or anything, but you know, it'll be a nice little safety valve for, for Sam Darnold, he'll have a better target in the passing game.

I'm, you know, a plus move as far as the Jets are concerned. Yeah, I can understand why they did it, but this is exactly what I expected. If the Raiders weren't going to be in on it, I didn't know what his market was. I could have understood him going to Baltimore. I know they were conflicting reports about that. It sounds like they were just not in on that. Which I can understand that as well, because if they were trying to make another big move, which they signed Earl Thomas, we'll get to that.

Then it makes sense that they'd want to pay a cheaper alternative in Mark Ingram than going out to get Livy on Bell. That's what this is all about. If you have the money to go get Levi-on-Bell, you certainly can. But would you rather have Mark Ingram and Earl Thomas or Levi-on-Bel? The answer to me is Mark Ingram and Earl Thomas. So that's why teams don't necessarily splurge on big-name players that are smart because they want two guys instead of one.

And we'll get some teams that made decisions like that in a little bit here. But let's start with the teams that did what we expected, and that's the Jets. So beyond Levian-Bel, they really just toss some of it. money around. Obviously, the C.J. Mosley contract is huge. I mean, resetting the market at a non-valued position, really, an offball linebacker. So yeah, they went out and got Jameson Crowder. They re-sign Henry Anderson. They were going to pay Anthony Barr and Livy Ann Bell. I mean, if they had tried to pay both of them. They offered both of them. So I can understand what the Jets are doing, but doesn't just just scream of another offseason where the Jets spent a ton of money and none of it's really going to

matter. They did the same thing last year. I mean, they did. They did. did the same thing with Tramaine Jotson as they're doing with some of these guys this season. I just, this screams of a general manager that knows he needs to make moves because he's GMing for his job.

Yeah. I think that there's, there's a path to contention next year and it's just Sam Donald making a huge lead. And that's, yeah, it's the most important. And then we'll reverse engineer it

and we'll act like this was some great free agent hall just because they win nine games or something. I don't think that the in and of themselves, these moves make the jet a significantly better team. I just think it all comes down to Sam Darnold. Maybe Levy on Bell helps in that regard.

You know, being able to dump the ball off to a running back is could be a very valuable thing. We've talked about the running back in the past game all the time with the past couple of years. So I, this is all on Darnold. This is all on the coaching staff. Maybe Adam Gase is a quarterback whisper.

I don't know. I continue to forget Adam Gase is the coach of the Jets. Yeah, it's easy to forget. I remember sometimes just walking down the street. I'm like, Jesus. So let's talk about just the idea of kind of building something around Darnel, because I think that's the most important aspect of this. Beyond going to get Bell, you add Jameson Crouter, which I'll be curious to see how that

receiving core fits together because I think a Noonois's best role is kind of in the slot, but you can use him in a couple different ways. He's bigger body to just think he's better in the middle of the field. So you have Anderson, you have a Noonois, you have Jameson Crouter now, three useful receivers. You have Bell in the receiving game. I think the best move they made this entire offseason was trading for Coletio Somalay. Because you are going to have to give him guaranteed money.

He has none left on his deal. He's only making $10 million this year. And the free agent guard market has absolutely reset. So you get him for two seasons at about an average of $11 million per year with no guaranteed money on his contract. And you did it for a pick swap. That's the best move they've made this entire offseason to me. I think that those sort of low-key moves are a much better approach to free agency than giving C.J. Mosley $85 million.

Yes, sir. I'm with you on that. The second way. of a free agency slash, even though it wasn't that, slash sort of those trades for guys who are already under contract, the Olivier Vernon thing I think falls into this a little bit, guys who are later in their deal where it's more of a bargain. Those are the approaches you need to take to free agency,

not necessarily saying, here's all of our money to an off-ball linebacker. So we'll talk about that in a little bit because there's one team I feel like is kind of following that mold or plans to and we should discuss them. So let's talk about another team that spent money in a pretty predictable way. And that's the Oakland Raiders. I mean, we figured they would toss a bunch of cash around if they had, they would toss a bunch of

free agent money around if they had the cash. And it seems like they probably did because beyond going out and getting Antonio Brown, they also gave Trent Brown a market defining contract as an offensive tackle, 36.7 million guaranteed four years, 66 million for a guy that got traded for a bag of balls last year, which that's always what you want in free agency. The guy you could have gotten for nothing is the guy you wanted to. give $16 million a year. Why don't we, I've got it, why don't we take the guy who the Patriots developed for no

money, we're going to overpay him, we're going to give him worse coaching, and we're going to think it works out. So I want to talk about the Patriots for two seconds, because you said some stuff yesterday that I sort of disagree with. Oh, here we go. I think that you can absolutely look at the Patriots model and say, let's try to do that. But I think there are so many aspects of how the Patriots have built their roster that are not replicable in other places.

It's not just Tom Brady. We discuss this all the time. Tom Brady's making $15 million, but you've got all these guys on rookie quarterback contracts making half fat. I will say, would you rather have Tom Brady at $15, how much more valuable is Tom Brady at $15 million than Jared Gough, Carson Wentz,

Mitch Trubisky, Deshaun Watson, any of those guys at $7 million? I wouldn't throw Trubisky in there. Start again. Whatever. I'm just saying all the guys on rookie contracts, I would still say, Tom Brady at twice what they're making

is significantly more valuable than any of those guys on a rookie contract. I would still say that. But, but, you know, I would say even further, what about Tom Brady at 15 million versus Russell Wilson in 2013 making less than the team's long snap? Sure, but that's one season. Most of these guys are top 10 picks

making five million by their second or third year. Sure, but Dak Prescott is not. Russell Wilson was not. Those are really going to two examples, though. Yeah. No, I mean, you hit on a mid-round quarterback. That's that's the example We're not we're not we're this is this isn't separate from this when I say the Patriots model

I'm not necessarily Tom Brady and Bill Belichick make the machine go The Patriots were dead last in rookie money and rookie snaps last year dead last The Rams actually and this is obviously separate because of of how they they viewed the draft last year But the Rams I think were were 31st and rookie snaps as well so the Patriots and and and and the Rams both did not have a lot of rookies last year. What the Patriots cornered the market on last year is what over the cap calls low contracts. And those are guys making $4 million. That's Julian Edelman. That was Trent Brown. There were a ton of guys last year who were in that $3, $4, $5 million sweet spot. That's actually a little bit down from a couple of years ago.

A couple of years ago, as I discussed in the podcast last week, what they had done was cornered the market on guys who were making $8, 9, 10. And I just feel like that, That is the sweet spot. Finding the guy worth $4, $5 million, or if you want to go up to $8, 9, that's fine. But what I'm saying is that's the roster building model they're having. It's not about saving, I understand. The Patriots is to win the Super Bowl of Tom Brady made $25 million a year.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. The Tom Brady thing is not the biggest aspect of it to me. It's more, it's too. I don't think it is. It's too, no, that's what I'm saying. I think other people said that to you. I'm not of that opinion. I think that's a part of it that other teams can't replicate.

But the two things that I feel, like make it a lot easier for them to build the team the way that they do are one, they don't need to spend on defensive linemen for the most part because they are so, so good at understanding how to manufacture a past Russian has understanding how the game plan defensively.

But I think the part of Replicating the Patriots is being smart as hell. Yes, and that's so hard. Right. I understand that. Try. Try to be smart. Like, I don't understand, instead of just hiring crappy retread coaches and running very basic schemes and saying,

Well, we're going to try to win with these guys. Like, try to be a little bit innovative. I devote all of your resources to outsmart and the other person. Look at your defensive game plan and try to come up with a new one each week like the Patriots. The Patriots basically design a new team every single week. They will change schemes entirely from one week to the next because they're really smart. And I'm sorry if like the, if what I'm trying to tell teams is to be smart, figure it out, guys. I'm, I think that teams should be more like the Patriots or try to be, but I think that devising

those game plans and making them as good as they possibly, as the Patriots do every single week, probably isn't going to happen. There's a reason that Bill Belichick is Bill Belichick. You should do more things to be like them, but I do think it's hard to replicate. And the other side of it is, but teams are going to the exact opposite way. Sure. You shouldn't do that. I think that the Eagles, hold on. I think that the Eagles have done a great job. They definitely have at replicating not, not necessarily the Patriots, model, but just looking at basic economic principles and saying, okay, we're just going to do that. We're going to figure out, so one of the things that they identified, I've written it,

one year rental deals because they figured there's a, you know, A, like we talked about, there is an advantage in getting these guys either for one year or in the last year of the contract because they're going to be on bargains, okay? And they're, especially relative to the cap, especially if they signed three, four years ago. So you either get a rental or you get the, you know, the guy in the fourth year of a four year deal. And you're, you know, you run him out there and you figure out if he's worth a long-term investment. And then you sign him as early as you possibly can. You don't let those guys hit free agency.

You don't let those guys get out into the market. The Patriots do that a little bit. The Eagles do not. They sign these guys. I mean, Zach Ertz is severely underpaid because they signed him as early as they possibly could. That's something that goes back to Joe Banner and Andy Reid 20 years ago. They understood. They understand the market better than anybody but the Patriots.

And the Seahawks did a great job of that back in the day. It's all about kind of maintaining your guys. before they even get close to free agency so you can have them on bargain deals. More teams should do that. I totally agree. But the other side of it is the Patriots, the Dante Scarnacki a part of this,

and I know that this is very on brand for me, but the fact that they can have guys, like David Andrews being an undrafted free agent, become above average center, way above average center. The fact that Shaq Mason was a fourth round pick and is now only making $7 million because they signed him like a year after they drafted him because they developed him so well.

The same with Marcus Cannon. They're able to get bargains on these. players because they draft and develop so, so well. And even guys like Kyle Van Nuoy who were just thrown on the scrap heap in Detroit, they just are so much better at developing guys than other teams that they're able to get these bargains on really effective players. And I know more teams should be trying to replicate some of these principles, but I do think it's much, much harder to do than people than just saying, be like the Patriots.

Of course. It's really hard to be the best team in football, but you shouldn't just throw up your hands and say, yeah, I don't know what to do. Might as well sign CJ Mosley for $85 million. That is never the answer. I just think that there are a lot of things NFL teams don't do that are very simple. If you think Dante Scarnacia is so important, why not call a Dante Scarnacia and say, we'll give you $6 million a year to be our offensive line coach.

I don't think he'd leave there for $10 million either. Okay, I think he would. But, I mean, he retired a couple years ago. That's what I'm saying. I don't think he has any interest in going anywhere else. I'd be very surprised. He literally left the Patriots to go do nothing. So, like, he has obviously open to the idea of leaving.

So I mean, I, if I was like, okay, instead of signing, if I, instead of signing Trent Brown for a trillion dollars, I would just call Skarnacki and say, create the next Trent Brown for $6 million a year. That's what I would do. I would never dig into free agency in a lot of the ways that these teams have. I mean, it's, you look at stuff like, you know, what the Bears did last year. I liked a lot of those deals because they weren't these market setting contracts. I'd never want to be in that version of free agency. But I do feel like there's a way to go outside of your team to make decently big splash sightings

that don't necessarily have to be dumb. The Patriots two years ago made Stefan Gilmore the highest paid cornerback in the NFL. They do this kind of stuff every once in a while. They just also call with really smart choices. They let Malcolm Butler walk as part of that. And that's the Patriots point. The point is not to overpay Malcolm Butler.

It's to find a better version of Malcolm Butler and pay him and have one year of Malcolm Butler on the cheapest possible contract. There is a way to be more like them, but I do think that they have some proprietary ways that they do things, just in the sense of how well they develop players, how well they identify talent, that kind of stuff. No matter what you want to do in terms of building the blueprint of who you want your franchise to be, they're always going to be so much better at some of these things that you're going to have to be a little bit more creative elsewhere if you can't

replicate that. That's all I'm saying. You can't just do it beat by beat because there are elements you're not going to be able to do. And sometimes you're going to have to be a little bit creative in other areas. That's it. That's all I'm saying. Yeah. I just think that there's a huge gulf between what the Patriots do and what 27 or 28 teams are doing.

And I feel like if every other team woke up and said, let's be more like the Patriots, I mean, the damn lions were the lie, were Bob Quinn and Matt Patricia just asleep for every single meeting that they were in the entire time they were in Foxborough? you don't like the lion signings that you're trying to say? I don't understand how you hang out in Foxborough for that long and don't learn any of the lessons. The theory, so the theory that in football,

I've actually heard of people who work in Foxborough, is that the do your job thing is so drill into you that literally you're saddled with only your job. So no one actually sees the whole picture, right? Like no one see, if you're the defensive coordinator, you don't actually, you know, get a great education in personnel, something like that, right? And so I can maybe see the argument there that they just don't see the whole New England picture. But how do you not look around or like

read an article or read those Michael Holly books that are really good about how the Patriots built themselves into a dynasty? Like, figure it out, boys. I feel like I understand that the lines have spent a lot of money. I have no problem with the Trey Flowers contract. I understand the Patriots just let him go and they trade for Michael Bennett. I have no problem with that deal. I think that Justin Coleman deal is a sticker price contract. I think that Jesse James is somebody you can find in a lot of different places. They didn't really pay him in Dole very much, so it's whatever.

The Flowers contract is the one like in free agency. I think he's good enough and I think he hit free agency for the type of reasons where I'd want to give him money. That's a very rare thing, but I would have no problem with that deal. The other deals I have problems with. Again, because it's not as if you're making Trey Flowers, the highest paid edge rusher in the league. He's not making more than Khalil Mack. He's making 18 million

bucks. That, to me, is in line with his production and his talent. You're not making him the new standard at his position when he doesn't deserve to be. My only thought on this, and this is very consistent throughout for agents,

the way you win games is to have a player whose production is, you know, you need a $20 million- type player. production at from someone making two million dollars a year right like that's how you that's how you win i remember the value of rookie contracts i remember sitting down with a with a with a cap guru uh for a

a team maybe four or five years ago and he was just like look if the cap is i think the cap was like 160 or something he's like we need to win a super bowl you basically need your players to play it like you know 220 million dollars worth of value something like that right because you said and you almost add it up in your head and And if you're making $18 million a year, the chances that you're of value is quite low. That's all. The chances that you, A, are an $18 million type player in terms of production is actually a little bit low. And the chances you'd go above that, which is what you need to win a Super Bowl, you need to compete, is really, really low.

That's all. So that's usually true. And I mean, that's not usually true. That's always true. But I think that the alliance problem is not that they be paying. Trey Flowers $18 million a year, which they're not really, by the way. I mean, I don't know how much guaranteed. Let me see how much guaranteed it is because I clicked off that page. The lion's problem is a Matt Patricia's their head coach. So the lion's problem is that they have

several problems. It's $40 million fully guaranteed signing for Trey Flowers. It's $20 million over two years, most likely if you play it out. That's fine. If you pay an elite pass rush for $20 million a year, you're not going to regret doing that. Detroit's problem is that they're paying the highest coming into the season, they had set the right tackle market for Rick Wagner, who has been fine, but he's not great. And they're paying Matthew Stafford $30 million. That when you're stacking up these mistakes, that's the concern. I don't have any problem with the Trey Flower signing,

but I do have problems with a lot of the ways the Lions have spent their money in the past. Yeah, I mean, I don't have much hope for the Lions, F.I. All right, do you want to get into, I want to talk about the Ravens. I want to talk about the Colts. Is there anybody else that you absolutely want to discuss before we get out of here? I'm looking at the NFL defensive line cap hits. And it's just, JJ Watt is a really good example of someone,

the advantage of signing a guy long and early. He's making $15 million against the cap. And from a guaranteed perspective, so his, Trey Flowers had $40 million guaranteed this week. J.J. Watt had $30 million at signing. Like, that's, those are the sort of things you want to do.

You want to get J.J. Watt under contract as early as you can, the manageable cap number. And right now it is a, freaking bargain. The chances in four years that we're looking at Trey Flowers' deal like that is quite, quite low.

Sure, but that's how free agency is. You're always going to, you don't want to have to sign free agents. That's why I don't think you necessarily play the game. Can we just do a podcast on Rashad Jones's $17.1 million cap hit in 2019? The dolphins are the best, man. They really are the best. What are we doing? They really, really are.

All right. Let's get into a couple other teams that have made. some interesting moves in my bar. By the way, Tyrone Williams, the Raiders. Oh, wow. The Raiders just keep spending, baby. This is great. Ah, live podcast, like live podcast reactions.

It's my favorite part of free agency. Yeah, the Raiders just tossing money around. Remember when the Raiders were going to, like, go young and be a rebuilding team? What the fuck are the Raiders? I just don't understand. They're one of these other teams that no... A John Gruden Vanity Project. That's exactly what it is.

They are one of those other teams just with no cohesion. among any of their moves. I love it. How surprised would you be? All right, so we didn't, we have not done a podcast since the Antonio Brown trade. I don't mind the Antonio Brown trade,

but it's again, just another, what the hell are the Raiders doing? They're liable to do anything at any time sort of move. I have a question. Shouldn't the Raiders have also traded for O'Dell Beckham?

Just why not at this point? No, they kept their first round pick. They have two. They have three. Yeah, yeah, right. Excuse me, just trade for O'D Beckham. Who cares?

Honestly, who cares? You have so much money you have so many picks. I guarantee you Tyro Williams will be making almost as much money as Odo Beckham on this deal he's about to get. Do you have we seen what the numbers are yet? No.

I'm sure it'll be a lot. So if you're paying Tyro Williams upwards of $11.5 million a year, why does not pay O'Do Beckham $18 million a year? I just want to say, I think I would be an awful general. general manager. I would screw up on paperwork constantly. I would like all sorts of administrative problems just as far as like me not paying attention to contract language or whatever. I'd probably

be just awful at implementing an actual system. The only thing I'd be good at is figuring out that when a good player is available to either get him and then don't let him go. Those are the two pieces of advice I have for every general manager. Get the good player and then don't let him go. It's a two-step process. Trust me, my team traded for Khalil Mack last year. It was really enjoyable. I was very glad a team just didn't want Khalil Mack. My advice is to not get offended if Kalil Mack hurts your feelings and then trade him for

no reason. All right. So let's get beyond the Raiders here. I want to talk about the Ravens because for a little bit... We didn't talk about the Antonio Brown thing. All right. What do you want to say? Good trade for the Raiders?

Yes. I would do it. I wrote about this after it happened. I just said the Raiders are a team with absolutely no identity. there is no culture that Antonio Brown can possibly fuck up. And you also have to sell tickets. You have to sell tickets. They're moving to Las Vegas in like a year.

Who is going to want to come see that team? Putting Antonio Brown's face on that billboard is a lot better than putting up, we have $80 million in cap space come see the Raiders. It just is. I agree with you. John, they have John Gruden's face all over Vegas, which is great. I mean, that's how you sell it, right? Right.

Um, yeah, it's, it's, in my opinion, it's kind of low risk just because a of the picks they spent exactly what we talked about with, with the culture. They can blow it up very easily. The, the money is not insane relative to how much cap space there was. I'm, I'm for it. You don't, those types of guys don't come around a lot. They don't. You know, the thing with Brown again, like Beckham, his work ethic is not really in question. Okay, he pegged Big Ben with a ball and then left Brown. practice. That's, I'm sure that's, that's not, that's not what you want, Robert. But that was, I would say that it's not like he, he doesn't work out or he's out of shape or whatever. I mean, I saw this a couple of places. And people were like, when, oh, when he said he doesn't need football, that's a big red flag. Actions speak louder than words. I mean, I remember having to wait like an hour to talk to Antonio Brown after a training camp practice maybe two years ago because he was the last guy on the field just working with the jugs machine. and he would run in place and catch the ball with one hand or whatever. I mean, he was doing things on a jugs machine. I've never really seen before. He would have, this was last year, he would have a guy draped on him while working on the jugs machine just so he could figure out the different angles. I mean, the same way, like, like Phil Mickelson talks about this a lot in golf,

and I'm not comparing those two athletes because Phil would never have that mustache. But just as far as the science of it goes, like Phil's whole thing is like, I want to be able to hit a shot because I want to know what it's. feels like in this wind, this angle, whatever. And Antonio Brown kind of does the same thing where he's literally wants someone to drape his, you know, three right finger, three right, three fingers on his right hand so he can catch it with his left. Like he just wants to, to know what that feels like so we can figure it out. And so I think that's, that's the most important thing, um, for me is that Antonio Brown just works his ass off. He's going to show up. He's going to be fine. Maybe he'll yell at

Derek Carr a little bit, but like, you have to get over that stuff. So let's move on. Let's talk about one more move that we expected to happen. Nick Foles goes to the Jaguars. I mean, so I know that there's been that kind of idea. Mike Erifold said this. And I can understand that Jaguars believing this,

that they had to give Nick Foles that type of contract in order to make it seem like he was the man in the locker room. He was the unquestioned guy. If they gave him $18 million and didn't sign a quarterback, wouldn't have that accomplished the exact same thing. Yeah, dude, I don't know what that was. I thought the Nick Foles deal was going to be for significantly less. So did I, because they weren't negotiating against anyone.

And if Nick Foles ends up being a very good quarterback and the Jaguars are significantly better on offense and everything else, we're not going to worry about whether it was 18 million or 22 million a year. But these things have consequences. By signing Nick Foles to 22 million, you have to cut your right tackle. So now you need a right tackle. It just doesn't happen in a vacuum. Any team can open up this cap space to make a huge splash move like this. but you also have to really give up things in other areas of your roster.

It doesn't just happen. Yeah. Again, I just don't, I feel for the Jaguars because they had an incredible window that they could have taken advantage of last year. Do you think there's any hope for the Jaguars in 2019? I think there's some hope, but I don't think there's a ton. I just think he's going to be much, much better than mortals. It's a good division.

That's the other side of it is that you would easily say that they're the third best team on paper right now after Indianapolis and Houston. And then there's that element of the Titans being pretty decent. I liked a couple of the Titans signings. There are no easy games in that division. Yeah, that's, it's, it's a shame. I wish the Jaguars had done better with that defense. All right.

So let's run through a couple that were a little, a couple teams whose moves were a little bit more surprising very quickly here. Baltimore lets CJ Mosley go. They let Zedarius Smith go. They cut Eric Weddle. And it's like, all right, what are the Ravens doing? And then the Ravens come back a day later and they signed freaking Earl Thomas, which we should just know at this point that, I mean, I know Ozzie Smith isn't there,

but that team is so good. As he, excuse me, Austin, if Ozzie Smith was the, man, could you imagine Ozzy Smith? Great. So it's,

they do such a good job of maintaining that defense. And we should just trust them with that side of the ball at this point. I mean, they're going to have need to kind of upgrade their back. They were, after losing so much pass rush stuff with trial sucks as well, they were going to need to upgrade their back end. Is there any better way to upgrade your back end than by signing Earl Thomas?

They now have Earl Thomas, Tony Jefferson, Jimmy Smith, Marlid Humphrey and Tavon Young as their corners and their safeties. That's pretty damn good. I love the Earl Thomas signing. It's amazing. I am in.

It's such a smart move by a smart organization. Again, that's why they stay good on defense. Warren Sharp had some stats. When Earl Thomas was on the field from 2016 to 2018, remember he was the top ranked, was he the top ranked by PFF in defensive player at the time of his injury or just safety? Because I feel like he was up there.

It was up to the defensive player. I mean, it was above like 90 to 91 or something like that. So when he was on the field, last three seasons, 81 pass a rating, number one in the end. NFL, 6.8 yards per attempt, number four in the NFL, 47% success rate number two in the NFL. When he's off the field, 100 rating, which is 30th in the NFL, 7.9 yards per attempt, 29th the NFL, 51% success rate 25th in the NFL.

There is just a massive on and off difference. It's unbelievable. I remember, we talked about this 2017 when he was out. I know he's had the injuries, but when he was off the field, the Seahawks, they did not know how to play football. It was unbelievable. He was the backbone of the Legion of Boom. I don't think he probably got the credit that he deserved,

even though when I say that, I mean, everyone knows he's elite. I think that there was a time where he might have been the best player in the NFL. Yeah. I don't think that's a stretch whatsoever. And I know he's had some health issues lately, but I absolutely would have taken a fly around him. The idea that the Niners were more apt to use their cap space to sign and trade for D Ford and go overpay for Kwan Alexander rather than going out and getting Earl Thomas

and overpaying to get Earl Thomas, that's just so surprising to me because I would have just paid it. I would have given him more than Lannon Collins or Tyron Matthew got and just say, fuck it, he's better than both of them. When he's healthy, he is the most impactful safety in the NFL. And I know that's an if and I know he's on the wrong side of 30, all that stuff. It wouldn't matter to me. He is the guy I would have chased with every single dollar that I have. And that is why the Ravens are a good team. It's why they're consistently competitive and why their defense is consistently good because they do this stuff all the time.

The Weddell signing was the exact same thing. He's not even 30. He's not even 30. He's going to be 30 this season. This is going to be his age 30 season. Yes. The Ravens do smart stuff like this all the time. They're going to get him on a deal that is so palatable that it is going to look like a bargain as soon as he starts playing again.

I absolutely love it. By the way, the Rams getting Eric Guido for $5.5 million when we've seen what the safety market looks like. that is a steal. That's one of the better deals that anyone's made. Go get the guys that were cut. It's always going to work out well

because they don't play into your compics and you're probably going to have to underpay them. So another team that went out and I just talked about a couple of their moves and got a big time safety and kind of decided to forego their pass rushers was the Kansas City Chiefs. I don't know how well this is going to work out,

but I'm curious about it. I think that they saw what they were on defense last year with Justin Houston and Deutons. Ford said it doesn't matter how good our pass rush is if we don't have anybody on the back end. And now they've started to spend some money in that area, which we'll see how it works out. But I like Tyron Matthew and I think he's a good player. I just don't know if shipping off both of your guys and choosing to say, we're going to be only, we're only going to invest in the secondary.

I don't know how smart that is. Yeah. You know, there's a, when I was doing the analytics story, I heard from a couple of people, one of them being some of the PFF guys, they have a, a wins above replacement metric. And one of the things that I found interesting in reporting that was that the back end is seen as more valuable than the front end of a defense.

They believe that, yes. Because you can scheme out past rush. You cannot scheme out past coverage. That's the reason Bobby Wagner was seen as more impactful than someone like Aaron Donald in 2017, at least. I think 2018 as well, because coverage is just more important because there's nothing you can do.

about your top receiver being draped. There's nothing you can do about a linebacker who gets in front of the ball and knocks it down. It's really easy to sort of, it's not easy, rather you can change your whole operation and do it, but you can scheme away someone like Clomac. You can change everything to do that,

but you can do it. You cannot do that with the back end. I'm wondering, you know, the chiefs are very forward-thinking operation. They have a lot of analytics people. I'm wondering if they have that sort of view as well. I don't know. It seems like they do.

I mean, Well, it seems that they do because here's the deal, dude. They saw what happened with a great pass rush last year, and it was Rob Gunkowski running down the field, you know, for an entire overtime here, never touching the ball. And guess what else they saw? They saw a Patriots team with a bunch of mediocre pass rushers and tree flowers

and a Patriots team with a stacked secondary that they put a ton of resources into. The Patriots definitely are influencing this way of thinking. I mean, I would 100% believe that. Yeah. No, I mean, if you, you go through that overtime, um, your philosophy and football might change.

I have my reservations about it just because I've always been a fan of how much a pass rush can affect the game, but I can understand why teams are going this direction because there have been some results, especially as of late, that points how important your secondary is versus your front force. So it feels like some teams are 100% going in that direction. All right. Let's talk about the Colts very quickly.

They had over $100 million in cap space. They haven't really done anything outside of signing Devin Funchis to a one year, 13 million dollar deal with. which I know that's a lot of money. Who cares? It's one year. They have $100 million in space. But I also think the Colts could sign Justin Houston, Golden Tate, Tray Boston, and like four other guys in the next three days.

There are still plenty of players out there. And I don't mind that they've been this kind of cautious and watching the market unfold. Ah, funch's deal kind of sucks, dude. It's fine. I don't mind that. For one year, who cares? Yeah, it's fine. Whatever. I mean, that deal is fine to me.

He's a tall target for Andrew Luck. What do we do? What do you have signed Timothy Mosgov if you want height? Like, what the hell? That deal is fine to me. When you have $100 million in space and it's a single season, I don't mind contracts like that. The money has to go somewhere.

They still have tons of flexibility. It's not great, but as long deals that don't tie up a ton of your future cap, I'm always okay with those. All right, let's very quickly kind of rapid fire here. A couple contracts you like before we get out of here. First of all, the Eric Weddle deal. I'm totally with you. That's how you get bargains.

That's the type of thing where we're going to be saying, why was this guy available? I think the Toronto Matthew signing is in the same way. We're going to be asking ourselves why he was available. I understand it's not the sort of $7 million a year deal that it was last year. But I think that with the way the cap is now, $14 million is not so bad. I think there are some people in that Houston building that are very upset right now. Yeah.

They wanted him back. And I think that there are some people in that building that are not very happy. I mean, no one, no one, no one should be happy. You know what, you know what deal I kind of like? The Saints bring back Teddy Bridgewater. Yeah. I thought that was going to happen. He seems like a guy who's thoughtful, who understands kind of just the chessboard as it exists.

And being the backup in New Orleans is much better. going and being the starter in Miami, no matter what the money difference is. Malik Jackson, even at $10 million. I think that's a nice pickup. Yep. I think that's a good one. A couple more than I liked. Matt Paradis to Carolina, I think is great.

Three years, $30 million. He's a very good player. For him to make less than Mitch Morse when he's a better player than Mitch Morse, I like that. I think Jordan Hicks, four years 34 to Arizona when you consider what guys like Kwan Alexander and C.J. Mosley got is a good contract. Adrian Amos to Green Bay hurts my heart. It's a really good deal for the Packers.

Again, you look at what other guys in the market got. It gets significantly less $9 million a season. Only $12 million guaranteed. He is a really good player. I just had a stroke. Evan Silva said that on ESPN, Jordan Ranan, who does a great job, said that the Giants will transition

to a Gettelman preferred run-first attack. Yes. Let's do this. God, this sucks. They are the worst. They are so, so bad. I don't. I don't know what's going on.

All right, a couple of deals that I did not like, just again, very quickly. The Bears contract for Buster's screen is indefensible. To give a slot corner $5 million a year and $8.5 million guaranteed who no one wanted and was terrible last year, I will never, ever understand. Billy Turner getting the amount of money he did from Green Bay to be a guard, I guess. that's a spot where you don't need to overpay considering how well they have drafted and developed there. It just, that's silly to me.

Those are really the two that stick out in my mind. I think that there are so many overpays elsewhere. But even though, is that they're not the huge contracts given out, but I still don't understand them. Yeah, I don't even want to talk about football anymore. All right. We don't have to talk about football anymore. We'll be back, though, talk about way more ridiculousness

from free agency. As always, thank you for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer podcast network. We'll talk to you later. Thanks, guys.