The Ringer NFL Show - The NFL Appealed the Deshaun Watson Ruling. Now What?

Episode Date: August 4, 2022

Sheil and Lindsay go through the Deshaun Watson ruling, the NFL’s appeal, and what all of it means heading into the 2022-23 season. Hosts: Sheil Kapadia and Lindsay Jones Associate Producer: Stefan Anderson Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal and Conor Nevins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome to a golf podcast unlike any other. This is Fairway Rowland on the Ringer podcast network. I am your starter. Joe House every week on Fairway Rowland. It is myself and our PGA tour correspondent on the ground, Nathan Hubbard, talking all things, professional golf, amateur golf, amateur betting, professional betting, amateur drinking, professional drinking by Birdie Buddies. If you want to hit them straight out there,

please check out Fairway Rowland every week, available on Spotify. Welcome to the Ringer NFL show. Shield Capadia here. News of the day, the NFL is appealing the sixth game suspension for Deshawn Watson. I'm happy to be joined by my friend Lindsay Jones, who I've been reading and listening on this topic for months, years? Is it years? Lindsay, I don't even know how long back this has gone, but I can think of no one

better to talk about this with than you. Well, thank you, Sheal. I'm really excited that we're getting to podcast together here for the first time as Ringer coworkers. I wish it was a more fun topic. We'll get to the fun stuff later. But right now there is a lot of news and some new developments with Deshaun Watson case. Yeah, I like because you're able to clarify a lot of the gray areas and what's happening. So I just want to go step by step with this. You'll answer my questions. I'm sure you'll answer our audience's questions. Let's start with what punishment is the NFL now pushing for now that we know that they're appealing. We know the initial ruling with the six game suspension. What's the NFL pushing for here?

Yeah. So, I mean, you kind of are starting at the right place. A couple of days ago, Judge Sue L. Robinson, who was appointed by the NFL and the NFLPA as the neutral third party arbiter in this case gave, like you said, a six-game suspension. We have to remember that at the hearings in front of Judge Robinson earlier this summer, the NFL argued for an indefinite suspension of at least 17 games while Deshawn Watson's side was arguing for zero games. So that's why there was never really a settlement in this case. But now that the NFL has decided to appeal, they're sticking with what their initial punishment recommendation was. They, in the appeal that was filed by the NFL's Management Council today, which is basically the NFL's lawyers in this case,

they're asking for an indefinite suspension, any minimum of 17 games. They're asking for additional things beyond just the suspension increase. They're asking for a fine. There was no fine included in Judd Robinson's initial ruling. And they're also asking for some specified therapy or counseling or treatment that Deshaun Watson would have to undergo. That was not part of Robinson's initial ruling. There was really no mention of any other stipulations beyond the fact that all of his massages have to be conducted by team-issued therapist. That was really the only thing behavior-wise that she said was going

to be part of this ruling. So that's really what the NFL is looking at. They've gone back to what they wanted all along. And now Roger Goodell or somebody else that he appoints to hear this appeal, we'll get to decide if what his staff wanted in the first place is what the final punishment will be. And on what grounds, now, there's some guesswork here, obviously, but on what grounds do we expect the league to kind of appeal and push for this stronger punishment? Yeah, so, you know, obviously we haven't gotten to read the actual brief that the NFL's lawyers filed. But the CBA does give us some language to understand what the scope of the appeal can be. And that is that the only thing that they can appeal,

the only grounds that they have are things that were presented in the actual hearing. So they can't go beyond what was initially presented. And we know what was presented from Judge Robinson's initial ruling. It was the cases of four women. So, you know, there were 27 various accounts between the women who filed lawsuits, other women who pursued criminal charges, and then an additional woman who initially filed a lawsuit and then withdrew it. They can't go into all of that. They're not going to be able to go back and see. submit, let's say, New York Times stories that had additional corroborating information. What they're bound to right now is the information that was presented in that hearing. But my sense of how they are structuring this appeal and why they're appealing is that Judge Robinson, in her 16-page report that she issued earlier this week, she basically found that the NFL proved its case in every facet.

They said that they proved, that they were able to prove that Deshaun Watson engaged in acts of sexual assault, that he damaged the shield by, you know, not failing to live up to the standard of an NFL player. You know, it was a pretty damning document when it came to what Deshaun Watson, you know, did. And it probably is close of anything as we'll actually get because there were no actual criminal charges. And now 23 out of the 24 civil suits have actually been filed. So I think, you know, this is something that Nora and I spoke about on the podcast the other day was the disconnect between saying that the NFL proved its case in every facet, but then not agreeing with the disciplinary recommendation.

So I think that will be part of it, as they'll say, look, you said that we were right, that he did all of these things and that he deserved this sort of punishment. And I'm curious how much explanation there is or rationale the NFL is providing in that document in their brief about the past precedent because she seemed to rely very heavily on the fact that other players in the past received six games or less for other, quote unquote, nonviolent sexual crimes or even crimes that were more, or offenses that were more violent in nature.

You know, the binary between what is violence and nonviolence when it comes to sexual assault. That's something that Nora and I got into a lot the other day. I don't think we need to spend a ton of time of it here. I'm curious if that's something that the end. NFL is bringing up in its appeal because it's something that I've had a lot of trouble reconciling with over the last few days. So I think those are the things saying, look, you asked us to prove, and we met that burden of proof for all of these violations of the personal conduct policy. So we believe that it warrants a more significant suspension than six games.

It's such a key point that you make, and you and Nora did a great job of outlining it. I think the messaging on this, when the ruling first came out and everyone heard six games, you go, oh, wow, well, you know, she's probably didn't find that Deshaun Watson did these things that the NFL is a legend. And then the report comes out and it's like, wait a minute. No, she, she is confirming or saying that Belize more likely than not that he did do these things. You mentioned the three things there, you know, sexual assault, undermining the league's integrity, endangering the safety and well-being of another person. And so, you know, I think the direct language was the NFL carried its burden to prove that Mr. Watson engaged in those things sexual

assault as defined by the NFL. And so that is what the ruling was. That is what she was saying. And so the six games, the disconnect there, like you mentioned, was based on previous NFL rulings. It wasn't based on her finding the NFL to be not credible and Deshaun Watson to be credible. It was, in fact, the opposite that she found Deshaun Watson and his, you know, his case, his refusal to acknowledge that any of these things happen to be not credible. And she found the NFL cases to be credible. So that's something that I just feel like any conversation we have going forward, we need to repeat over and over and over again,

because I do think there was just that disconnect with the messaging from when the first suspension came out and then what we learned afterwards. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And the other thing with this was Deshaun Watson and his lack of expressed remorse, as defined by Judge. Robinson. I think that to me could also be a big point in this. And it seems like it's still continuing. I mean, we all watched Watson's press conference. I mean, I was just struck by how defiant he was that none of these things happened, how almost offended he was, that the idea that

he would have to seek counseling or that he, you know, he said he'd never disrespected any woman. I mean, there's no way to read this ruling other than those were not, you know, there is no agreeing that any of that is the case. And so if you're Roger Goodell or whoever he's going to assign here to look at this appeal, I feel like that has to be a factor in this, don't you think? Yeah, I think so. And it was something that was in the part of the initial hearing, right? So that is something, I think, that would be on the table for the NFL if they wanted to include it in their brief for why there was an aggregating factor. And Judge Robinson actually listed his demeanor and his tone on all of this as an aggregating factor, but clearly not enough of one

to take the punishment beyond six games. But, you know, I think, you brought up a lot of the things that I've been struggling with and that I've written about and talked about on, you know, podcasts and, you know, in print or online for months and months now is the fact that, you know, he hasn't, it's not only that he hasn't expressed remorse, it's that he has yet to even acknowledge an understanding of why dozens of women would even accuse him of any of this in the first place. and the idea of, or the quote that he said that you already repeated right now that I've never disrespected any woman, to me that shows that he doesn't view any of these women that he's hired to perform massages and then has touched inappropriately or various forms of the sexual misconduct and sexual assault as defined by the NFL. Now we actually have that in a actual document. Why they consider that to be so violating. And that to me shows that he doesn't see them as women. He doesn't see them as human beings.

You know, if he says, I never violated or disrespected a woman, he's thinking, my mother, my sister, my aunt, a woman that I have a personal relationship with. And that's really upsetting to me. And I know it's upsetting to a lot of other women. So, you know, I think there's just a lot of layers here. I'm not sure how much, you know, legally they can bring all of that in here. But it is, I think, a big part of why the NFL wants to appeal now is because, So much of this is optics and what this looks like and what this means for the NFL to have Deshaun Watson on the field playing football this year in major games, you know, potentially primetime games.

If the Browns are the type of team that they think they are with Deshaun Watson a quarterback, they'd probably be in a playoff race. And that kind of makes me want to throw up thinking about it. And I know there's people at the league office who they don't want, they don't want that to happen this year. They just would prefer to be able to ignore Deshaun Watson for a complete, for one more season, get some more distance from all of this before, you know, having to face the reality of, you know, a quarterback who is credibly accused of dozens of instances of sexual misconduct or sexual assault, you know, playing for one of their kind of crown jewel franchises. It always felt to me that he was acting as if he was untouchable from day one, from the first time,

and anything got out there. And then, you know, more detail surface and more reports come out. And then when it came time for him to find a new team and you see what happened there, and he's getting $230 million guaranteed and $46 million per year, you're kind of going like, well, geez, I can kind of, you know, this is why he felt untouchable. Like look at the actions that are taking place. Look at the people he's surrounded by. Look at how he's being rewarded and facing no consequences for this.

And so that's just the part that I think has been, I'll just speak for myself, has been frustrating throughout this, is that he's acting one way and there are sort of no consequences for it. And so like you said, it's going to be based on the findings of the case so far. There's not going to be any new information,

but I am curious to kind of find out what kind of role, the way he's acted, his denials that are not credible, will play a role in whatever kind of suspension or punishment he ends up facing here. So what happens now, I guess, is the question. I mean, this timeline has been like all over the place for so long.

It feels like what happens now? What's kind of the timeline as we look at this going forward? Yeah, so the CBA also outlines this. So we at least have a little bit of a roadmap here to follow. So basically the decision came down from Sue Robinson on Monday morning. The NFL had both parties had up to three days to appeal the NFLPA. And Deshaun Watson said they would not be appealing. The NFL beat that deadline, which I appreciate.

You know, I appreciate now that I'm an editor, I appreciate any time somebody wants to file early. Let that be a note to everybody. So the NFL beat their deadline. So they submitted their brief on, what is this, Wednesday afternoon. They had until Thursday to do so. Now the NFLPA and Deshaun Watson side, they have two days to respond to that appeal. And then we should be getting a result or a final decision. not too long after that.

The one thing that was not decided, as of the time that we're recording this on Wednesday evening, Roger Goodell had not yet decided if he was going to hear the appeal or if he was going to designate somebody else to do so. So that's probably the next bit of news that will come out is whether Godell

is going to hear this directly or he will appoint someone else. The CBA, which is agreed to by the NFL and the NFLPA, gives Goodell that power. he might want to pass that off to somebody else. Just, you know, this is the first big test of this new personal conduct policy and this new system and with the arbiter. And it might be cleaner if he can appoint somebody else.

But even if he's appointing somebody else who's like, you know, a senior vice president of the NFL or somebody else, it still is ultimately up to the league and somebody who is hired or appointed by Roger Goodell. So really now this really swing. to the NFL's favor here and just kind of reinforces that no matter what system has been in place, whether it was the old CBA, where Roger Goodell got to make all of the decisions. He issued the punishment and heard the appeal to now where even there, you know, you add in, in theory, kind of like a neutral arbiter, the NFL and Goodell really get to have final say.

Yeah, I usually hate the word optics. It's probably overused, but that does see. I do feel like what you said that, that does apply here, whereas he's, going to be, want to be the one making the final ruling here when this whole new process was basically supposed to be kind of, you know, that, hey, he's going to have less power. Yeah, I don't think he wanted to, you know, I really don't think he wanted to. I did get a sense that when the NFLPA put out its statement on Sunday night saying, we're not going to appeal so you guys shouldn't either, that that didn't go over great

in the league office where that was like, well, you gave us this power, but now we can't, you say we can't use it. those sorts. I don't think that went over great. You know, ideally this would have been a cleaner, maybe less high profile case. It would have been a, you know, third string running back who was, you know, investigated for domestic violence and it would be a little bit more cut and dry and not, like, the biggest sport story of the year. Unfortunately, it's not. And we're going to learn a whole lot more about this process and the legal system than any of us were probably intending. Yeah, I mean, Robinson's ruling, I,

I sort of felt like she was essentially saying, I am not going to make this a longer punishment, but hey, Roger Goodell or whoever's going to make the final call, if you want to increase it, you can based on what I found here. And so that part is certainly interesting. And then, yeah, just the part of this new system in place. Now, one thing to keep in mind, I feel like there will be, I don't know if outrage is the right word, but there will certainly be some opinions from the player's side that if this does get increased to a great degree,

that they will be sort of upset about the process. We have to note that this was collectively bargained, that this was going to be the process. The players agreed to this specific process, that there's going to be an independent arbiter, and then after that, there can be an appeal where Goodell or somebody who Goodell appoints makes the final decision.

So just to be clear, it didn't come out of nowhere. They did not necessarily have to agree to that stipulate. There's obviously give and take and so many factors at play when you agree to a new CBA, but this was agreed to by both sides that this would be the process going forward, even in the new CBA. Yeah, I mean, this is going to be the next big fight between the league and the union. It's been, you know, the relations have been too good for too long now. I mean, they had their off-season program battles a bit during the spring of 2021.

But, you know, this is it. They're going to be back to the table now, you know, kind of at odds with each other. whether it ends here after this appeal or if the NFLPA and Deshawn Watson's side want to take it to the next level, which would be taking this to the legal justice system and trying to get the courts involved. And that certainly is on the table. It's probably not a winning proposition for the PA and Watson's side, but it is something that other players have certainly done in the past. and it is an option if they are that upset with the ruling that ultimately is going to come down in a few days. That's what I was going to ask you about next year as we kind of close up.

So let's say, let's move this down the road a little bit and say, all right, they appeal, they get a stronger penalty, who knows what it is, the full year and an indefinite suspension and some of the other factors. You mentioned what recourse do Watson and the NFLPA have? Is it just that that they can say, okay, we're going to challenge this in federal court and, you know, anything more on kind of the dynamics at play there and what that would entail? Yeah, so I did a little reporting on this this afternoon just to make sure that I understood exactly what the process was going to be here because this has happened in the past.

Ezekiel Elliott went to court, Ray Rice went to court, and, you know, and Tom Brady very famously went to court, even though his was not a personal conduct policy violation. The Brady case is what actually is probably the most important thing to consider here. But so if Watson and the NFLPA are unhappy with the final ruling that comes down from Goodell or his designee here, whenever that happens, basically what comes next would be a race to court. The NFL would race to file basically a motion to continue in New York because they have good precedent, New York. the NFLPA would race to file a motion to vacate basically anywhere else in any other district court where they might be get a more favorable ruling from a judge. Most likely, if that case happens, it would happen in New York because that's where the league office is. That's where most of the arbitration, these arbitration hearings tend to go.

But so that would be the first step. Watson could also file a motion to vacate, which would really be asking a judge to. just throw out this arbitration ruling. Or Watson could also file a motion for a preliminary injunction, which basically, if that were granted, he would be able to play while the case was being litigated in court. That's what happened with Tom Brady initially. He got that stay and was able to keep playing and really delay. I think that the suspension ended up getting pushed off an entire season.

In that case, so those are the first things that would happen. This is an uphill battle for Watson to go. going to court because, you know, this is arbitration. This is collectively bargained. And in most cases, courts uphold arbitration decisions. And it's not just that. It's that also there's legal precedent now for the NFL's specific brand of arbitration being upheld in court. And that's what happened in the Brady case. And that's when the NFL and the NFLPA's disciplinary process is way more messed up than it is right now. That was when kind of, as I mentioned, you know, Roger Goodell could issue whatever punishment he wanted and then hear the appeal to uphold

that initial punishment and courts. And actually, this was appealed multiple levels. This was up into like circuit courts and some appellate courts upheld that this was an okay process, which really gave Roger Goodell very, very broad disciplinary power. So, you know, this is something that he could do. This is the course of action that maybe the PA would want to do to try to just push back on what has happened in this specific case. It's the first, you know, the first instance of this new disciplinary process. And, you know, it really didn't work, I think, how the PA intended it to. So, you know, for precedent to show that they're fighting for their players and what it means for, you know, future cases, the PA might want to do that. But the chances of Watson actually

winning in court getting his suspension overturned or vacated or even delayed, honestly, or it's pretty small. Yeah, the language in the CBA, if there is an appeal, you know, says that the decision by Goodell or his designee is full, final, and complete and binding on all parties. And I saw that Jenny Brentes talked to an arbitrator and labor law professor who said he thinks it's virtually airtight against judicial overturning. I think Watson is just going to be tilting at windmills if he challenges this in federal court. So to go along, you know, there with what you're you were just saying. So, you know, the other option would be that he just takes the suspension that is ultimately handed down, which would potentially mean sitting up the whole year and

who knows what else. Yeah. And I think there is one other, you know, thing that we kind of know, it always gets like really gross when you think about like the football side and the contract side. But when Watson is weighing his options, you know, I think it is worth noting the way that the contract is structured. Obviously, it actually would behoove him to serve his suspension this year, whether that's six games or 17 games. If it's, you know, this game, if he serves six games or more games this year, he's not losing that much money the way that the Browns chose to structure that contract. If his suspension stretches into 2023, it really changes the financial situation and he stands to lose a lot more money. So, you know, if there was a stay or if he was able to start

playing, if he was able to play some games in 2022, while this was being litigated, in a circuit court or a district court, he potentially could lose a lot of money in 2023 when the real money of his new deal kicks in. That's a great point. Yeah, but I mean, no, listen, if the Browns are going to pay him that contract and if he's going, you know,

if that's what he was seeking, then it absolutely has to be part of the story and his, you know, you would think would be part of his decision-making process if he's already facing an uphill battle and then he stands to lose even more financially and he's not sure when everything is going to be ruled on and when he's going to face that suspension, all those things would go hand in hand.

All right, I think we covered everything. Did I miss anything? I feel like I'm just trying to absorb everything you're saying and learn as I ask you these questions. I think we covered most of it, right? Yeah, I mean, I think we've hit the relevant stuff right now. Like I said, the news to watch for us who's going to actually hear the appeal. And then I think we're hopefully in the home stretch of having some sort of clarity of what this is, is actually going to look like.

Hopefully, some clarity and some finality. All right. Thank you, Lindsay Jones, for joining me, like you mentioned. We will do this again. We will have a more fun topic. We will have more fun with the podcast. But I appreciate your voice, and I'm sure the audience does throughout this entire thing.

Reading you and listening to you has been very helpful for many of us. So thank you to Lindsay Jones. Thank you to Stefan Anderson for his production, additional production supervision by Arjuna Ramgopal and Connor. Nevins. We will be back on the Ringer NFL show very soon.