The Ringer NFL Show - The NFL Gods Taketh, and Taketh, and Taketh Away This Year (Ep. 201)

Episode Date: December 12, 2017

The Ringer’s Robert Mays and Kevin Clark break down Week 14, including how “good Jay Cutler” will break your heart again soon (01:00), why the Eagles' Super Bowl hopes are in fact dead without Carson Wentz (07:00), and how Blake Bortles could actually lead the Jaguars to the Super Bowl (26:30). Then, the guys sort through the messy AFC wild-card chase (32:00), and explain why the Patriots should be honest about looking past the Dolphins on Monday night (37:30). Plus, Danny Kelly joins the show to discuss a rough and embarrassing Sunday for the Seahawks (46:15) and to explain how the Packers and Cowboys could jump Seattle in the playoff race (48:15). Finally, Robert offers a sentimental tribute to the recently retired Devin Hester (55:30). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

He gets the snap. He drops back three. He cocks his right on. There's a long line drive in the end zone. Leaping falling down. Corner catch. Touchdown. Jackine Grant heavily covered in the corner of the end zone.

He beat Malcolm Butler. What a pro by Cutler. What a falling down. Leaping two-handed catch made by Grant. And a touchdown for the dolphins who extend their lead over the New England Patriots 1910 early third. Welcome to the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer podcast network. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark.

He has heard that highlight off the top of Jay Cutler playing pretty dang well against the Patriots. Kevin, the dolphins in prime time. I mean, it's been a rough year for them on this podcast, but I think they were coming after you for a little bit last night. Tom Brady's now seven and nine in Miami all time. I was having a discussion with a couple of Patriots fans yesterday. about this. What is the deal with that? I have a theory. I have a theory. So he's seven to nine now, which is a full season of Miami.

Anyone who plays that much in Miami becomes the dolphins. Tom Brady in Miami is now just the dolphins. So he seven and nine. He played really well in Miami last night. I know. I was at a game. Tom Brady played Miami and it was when Randy Moss dunked on two people and they both tore their ACLs. Man, it was a heck of a day. That was 10 years.

well. Yeah, it was 10 years ago. I remember where I was that day. I was not in Miami. I was at a sports bar in Columbia. And then now Jay Cutler is the Newtown Brady. So, come full circle. I was talking about this a little bit on Twitter last night, but just the idea of Jay Cutler playing well. It was always an odd experience for me because even when it was in the benefit of my team, I couldn't enjoy it because all I could think is, why doesn't he play like this all the time? He looked like the most miserable person on the planet celebrating that win last night. Did you see that? He is, everything about him is spectacular. Again, I'm so glad I get to do it from kind of an aesthetic distance now where I don't have to care.

And I can kind of look at it as more of a psychological experiment than anything else. The J-Colour experience is something else, man. I mean, I really don't know how to describe it to people that have never been full on. No, they got it. We got it. We're all set. We get, we know it. We can see,

we can see him staring off with a thousand yards stare after they beat the best team in football. by 10 points. I mean, he really, those games where he just is accurate and he's slinging balls in there. He's doing a little bit with his feet. I mean, the guy is just so immensely talented. Again,

no one needs to, that explains to them. It's always going to be like this and it's always going to be maddening when he plays terrible, which is probably going to happen next week. You know, I think that there's, there's always sort of a Patriots what the hell game.

And they're kind of getting this out of the way. I think every team has one of those. We talked about that last week. with Philly and we'll get into their what the hell season after this. They have a what the hell injury right now. Yes, but I mean I think every team even during a magical run has a couple games like this and you're right. I think this is the Patriots.

One time though, the Patriots, the 2007 Patriots what the hell game was in the Super Bowl? Sure. That was a couple games. Yeah, that's fair. No, that's fair. They didn't lose any other games so that's not a what the hell game. No, I thought I'm not going to panic over this. I mean, they were

horrendous on third down. but I'm not, I'm not ready to, to say anything in the bigger picture about the Patriots playoff chances. I agree. And they're, they did not look at an offense yesterday. They couldn't run the ball very well.

They're off one third down. Could not push the ball down the field. You miss Gronk. That certainly doesn't help. And the thing I'm looking at is more, what are they going to do on defense at certain positions? Right. So they're always going to be fine overall.

I think we've learned that. All of our trepidation and concerns early, probably weren't warranted. But there are positions on that. defense that I'm concerned about. They have no linebackers. And against certain teams, matchups will be an issue. But I also think every team has that issue right now. If you watch Pittsburgh on Sunday, they could not stop Alex Collins. I mean, they're going to miss Ryan Shazir. There's no flawless team. So even that New England roster with a few massive holes,

every roster has a couple massive holes right now. The only one that probably didn't was Philly, and now quarterback is a hole for them. So there's a couple of things. I want to touch on from this game. First of all, if the dolphins went out, they probably made the playoffs. I just want everyone to be aware of this. I just love that you said if the dolphins went out as if that was a sort of precursor. Obviously, obviously the gag over the course of this week,

some of the dolphins writers say if they went out, they'll make the playoffs. And it's sort of tongue in cheek because they have to beat the Patriots. But now they have two games. against the bills and they have the chiefs. They're not going to go 3 and 0, but it's not impossible.

The Patriots game was the one that was impossible and they just sort of, they won and they won pretty handily. I think that there is, it's a tough road even if they do went out because I feel like the Chargers could win out. I mean, the Ravens absolutely could win the rest of their games. There's still one

game, yeah, there's still a game back in the wild card. Do they have the tiebreaker all those teams? Yes. The tiebreaker is what? They would also have a tiebreaker on the Chiefs if they beat the Chiefs. It's conference record for the Wild Guard, correct? Mm-hmm. Yes.

So. Well, we head-to-head, obviously. Head-to-head is number one, yeah. And then conference record goes beyond that. They beat the Chargers. You remember, they beat the Chargers. In this scenario, they would have beaten the Chargers and the Chiefs and the Titans.

They lost to the Ravens, though. God, I can't. They lost the Ravens 40 to nothing. Oh, yeah, that was, oh, God, that was the Monday night game. And then they also, remember last year, they got spanked against the Ravens. That's just like the one team, even when they're pulling out these awful wins,

they can't beat the Ravens. They actually get crushed by the Ravens. Man, you laugh at the Dolphins making playoffs, but just imagine. If it happens, I won't know what, I don't know what I'll do.

I seriously don't know what I'll do. Just think about all the dumb crap we've had to put ourselves through this season. And so like, why are you saying this won't happen? I almost, in the context of 2017 season, I'm booking a playoff flight to Miami at this point.

Yeah, it's been an awful year in a lot of ways. And we'll talk about that in reference through the Carson Wentz injury. We'll get to that messy ASU wildcard picture as well. Later, Danny Kelly will be here, talk about the Seahawks just losing control in more than one way in Jacksonville

and which NFC teams have a chance to possibly leap them in the wild card. Before that, though, let's get going with our four downs, our four biggest stories from the weekend. Kevin, on first down, there's really only one place to start, and that is with the injury to Carson Wentz, which is horrible news for just about everybody.

Everybody. With Wences and Watson going down, you could probably argue that we've lost the two defining players of this season. And in the case of what- Aaron Rogers who defines every season. Everything, yes. And in this case, Kevin, the ripple effect is huge.

It touches pretty much every aspect of this year. Let's start with the Eagles. Does this sink Philly Super Bowl chances in your mind? Well, I mean, there's two ways to look at it. Number one, you know,

I was joking, but the context of the 2017 season. In a normal year, it does. There was a statistic the NFL put out since 1991, 13 quarterbacks have started a game in the playoffs with three or fewer starts that season. Yeah. Okay. I saw that.

Their combined record, two and 12th. And Frank Reich has both those wins, which is amazing. Obviously, if you don't know, Frank Reich is the offensive coordinator of the Philadelphia Eagles. Yeah. So that all comes full circle. I still am worried about this. Do you think that Doug Peterson is jealous? us that Frank Wright got to do that

because he was just, he was also a long time backup guy. Yeah, what sort of a lifetime backup politics exist in the Eagles offensive meetings? They both, they both sit back and crack open a beer, you know, after a hard day of work and they're talking about being backups. And then Frank Reich gets to talk about

the time that he got to the Super Bowl. Yeah. Nick Foles is a member of that club, though. Nick Foll's lifetime backup as well. At least he has a coaching staff that can relate to him. It's probably a good place to start. unbelievable. I'm not too optimistic about this. I feel like there are too many good teams remaining,

even if you consider the flaws they have, for Philly to walk in with a backup quarterback and be favored against a few of these people. I think that them playing New Orleans, New Orleans is a better team than them. I think they would have a hard time with Atlanta at this point. I like the rest of Philly's roster, but I just think that Wence was playing so well.

And Wence was doing stuff that Nick Foles just can't do. And that's my problem. This isn't a plug-in-play situation. The running game is very good for the Eagles. Their offensive line is still very good. They have weapons. Their defense is very good. But what Wence was doing in extending plays and just kind of negating what happened on the left

side of the offensive line at times, I feel like the cracks in this team are going to show up more with Foles. And we're going to remember that they weren't a perfect team with Wence. So he was able to mask a lot of the stuff that made them imperfect. Wentz was sort of a light, very light version of Aaron Rodgers. When we talk about just a quarterback who's so good they can mask anything. And the interesting thing of this year is that the Eagles roster is significantly better than the Packers roster. Oh, absolutely.

Right. And so I was there on Sunday. I was at the LA Coliseum. And there were a couple of things struck me. Number one, Doug Peterson tried to put a very, very happy spin on this because they had clinched the NFC East. and, you know, he actually used the term jubilation about the team. And I don't know what was going on there. I mean, like, you know, I think that I saw a tweet yesterday that one of the B-writers

that basically said the team was trying to compare this to, you know, a Darren Sproul's injury or a Jason Peters injury. And I understand the significance and sort of the next man-up mentality, but at some point, it's not next man-up. And so what I'm getting at here is that so Peterson's talking about jubilation. I saw those players. I talked to those players. They weren't jubilant at all.

Yeah. There was no and there was seemingly a disconnect. And I think if the Eagles coaching staff tries to approach this as nothing is wrong, that's the wrong approach because the players were devastated. Because they, by the way, I'm not saying anything about Nick Follas. I'm sure Nick Follos is a popular guy. but they were in love with Carson Wentz. Carson Wentz, of the 53 players on that team,

the 52 players who were not Carson Wentz, were in love with Carson Wentz. And I think you really, there could be some weird weeks ahead just emotionally for them. At this point in the season, it's devastating to lose your quarterback. I mean, this is in week six. This is,

we feel like we're the best team in the league. We're headed to the Super Bowl. And then when it's made a fully formed idea, it is suddenly taken. away from you. When I was watching them, especially when they went up in that game, I'm sitting they're thinking, this team's going to get to the Super Bowl. This team's going to get to this. I mean, and I'm sure they thought that too. They were kind of sticking it to the Rams a little bit. I mean, obviously they had to slip up in the second half, but like they were moving the ball

on a really good Rams defense. I was really impressed with that team. Having said that, I mean, I just want to talk very quickly about the 2017 NFL season in the way that I view it. So I went to the Coliseum to write a column about golf and Wents and how and why we were set up for a new generation of quarterbacks the process behind that, what it's going to look like, how it's going to be different from

the golden generation of quarterback three is two now. And Crush and Wentz Tours ACO, south of the season. And it's interesting to me that I wrote that this sucks and the reaction I got was you hate

football so much. I want to give you some context on this. First of all, we both love football. I'm lukewarm on it now. I'm out on it now after the Wend's injury. We both love football. That's what's why we're here. There are four or five instances where we've tried to celebrate a player in the play this season and the player has been immediately ruled out for the season. And, you know, the famous thing we talked about was we had a meeting all of the NFL people here at the ringer and we decided we're going all on Deshawn Watson and at the end of the meeting it was revealed that he had torn

his ACL. Meeting wasn't even over yet. The meeting wasn't, oh I made, I saw the tweet in the meeting. And now I go, I go to, I spend a week in Anaheim where they were practicing and I'm getting all sorts of here comes Carson One's

stories and he tears his ACL. I have no idea and we will never know data if injuries are getting worse in the NFL. Football outsiders tracks injury data, and the data says injuries of spikes since 2007, but that could be slightly misleading because it's reported injuries, and maybe guys are just saying they're hurt more

because they're smarter about their bodies and all that. But I think anecdotally, it's pretty clear something is extremely wrong. And that's why I keep writing these stories. If I wanted football to die, I just wouldn't say anything. I would just let it quietly die because, you know, Nick Foles going to be playing Case Keenham in the NFC championship game

forever and ever. I want Carson Wentz in the NFC championship game. I want Deshawn Watson playing on a divisional weekend. That is my hope for the sport of football. That's all of our hosts for the sport of football.

And so, I mean, I just, the sport as it's currently constructed is extremely violent. The athletes are bigger and faster than ever before. That makes the collisions bigger and faster than ever before. People were coming out of me and saying

Carson Wentz's injury was non-contact. Excuse me. Did you see the contact? He got squished between two really good Rams defenders, his leg. I think that this, I think this year's an aberration. I really do. I mean, injuries aren't up league wide. It's just the guys getting hurt are the best players.

But injuries are up league wide. But not to the degree where it's like, this is, this is an epidemic. How can we ever go on? I don't think that has changed. Football hasn't suddenly gotten so much more violence. in the last two or three years. And athletes haven't gotten so much better. I think the group of players that has hurt this year

is extremely high profile. But it was last year, I mean, Marcus Maritor broke his leg last year. Derek Carr broke his leg last year. Every seemingly any quarterback that's under the age of 30 years old has had a devastating injury in the last 12 months. I mean, but Deshawn Watson did it while touching no one.

Oh, I understand that. I understand that. I understand that. I understand that. I understand that. Aaron Rogers broke his collarbone like we've seen 100,000 people break their collarbones playing football. It just, I don't know.

This year feels like the spike is to the players that we notice. There are so many teams right now that are absurdly healthy. Like, even the Eagles are absurdly healthy. It just happens to be the two best players in their team are the ones that are hurt. Yeah. Look, this could just be the unluckiest season in the history of football.

I understand that. I am leaning that direction because I don't think that if you look at a lot of the numbers, it is any different than what's happened over the last five years. I think the players that it's happened to are different. But the number of guys who have missed games is spiking. And that's what's interesting to me. Over the broad, in the big picture, the number of guys who've missed games is spiking.

And so, I mean, maybe it just becomes an injury league. And there are people who are saying, oh, it's always been about injuries. Well, it hasn't to this degree. It hasn't to this degree. I think the last few years it has been. But I do think that it's weird. I'm talking about this era.

It's not that the 2017 season is the start of something new. No. It said, this is this era of football. It sucks. It sucks because I wanted to see Carson once in the Super Bowl. I wanted to see, I know, and I said this, I praised Eagles fans on Twitter. And I had all of these people coming at me being like, I hate Eagles fans. And so I'm going to leave that argument aside.

watching the Eagles fans at the Coliseum, and even I was in Santa Monica on Saturday, I saw the Eagles fans just walking around. I wanted that fan base in the Super Bowl. Like that is a fun team. It's a fun fan base. Doug Peterson, not knowing what's going on

on the Tuesday of Super Bowl week is funny to me. Trust me, man. I was with you. I loved this team from the start. I thought they'd be really good. I was happy to see that they were really good. It's always enjoyable to me

when you can see a team just hit the parts of its point. plan that it was trying to and become the team they wanted to be in terms of roster construction, all that stuff. I find that fascinating. The Eagles did that. Everything they could have been as a team this year, they were and more. And to see that taken away, this stage just sucks.

It sucks for everybody. The thing I got a lot of people coming out of me for, which I found interesting because I certainly don't, I'm not going to change my stance on it. I said, you know, if Nick Foles can make the Super Bowl, man, maybe you can't because that that defense is still really good. Foles himself is decent. We've seen Foles succeed, obviously, over basically a full season.

So I'm not totally pessimistic that he's, I don't anticipate them losing out or anything like that. But if Foles can make the Super Bowl from the NFC, that's part of the problem. That's a symptom of the larger disease in the NFL. If the talent is such that Nick Foles can make the Super Bowl. I mean, I would guess at this point, I couldn't even handicap the NFC race at this point.

I mean, it's impossible. We're going to try here in a second. I know. All right, let's move on. All right. For now, with everything that's happened with the Eagles, and I will address all those points here as we keep going. For everything that happened to the Eagles this weekend,

they remained atop the NFC after the Vikings lost Carolina. On second down here, let's dig into that win by the Panthers and what it actually does mean. So it was probably the most impressive of the weekend, in my opinion. It really showed off the elements of their roster that I think could make them a tough out in the playoffs. So after watching the, that game, even though you just said you can't, where would you put the Panthers in the

NFC right now? You know, the one thing I want to avoid is sort of name recognition football and just saying that because he's Cam Newton, I would put them near the top because Cam Newton, you know, he is, the passing yard is numbers for Carolina the last three weeks. Have we seen them? 129 on Sunday 167 the week before 154 the week before so I'm not

I'm not seeing vintage Cam Newton here but he is Cam Newton and so he does get some points here they've won what five of six games they're nine and four and the one loss is to New Orleans and the one loss is to New Orleans they beat the Vikings I mean

this is a team they can go to the Super Bowl and that's that's a NFC, it's more of a statement about the NFC than anything else. But I mean, if you try to rule out the Panthers going to the Super Bowl right now, you're completely wrong. I think that, yeah, I agree with you on that. I still wouldn't pick them. No, I'm not picking them.

But I think that this is almost like, remember the beginning of the year, the exercise which was really fun just like how many teams can go to the Super Bowl? Yeah. I think the Super Bowl. I think the Panthers are a good example of who are naming teams that can go to the Super Bowl and the NFC, you're going to name. the Panthers. And at this point, you'd probably name five teams. I think that in the NFC playoff race, teams that could go to the Super Bowl. Carolina is one of them. And this week

showed me a lot. We'll talk about that in a second. Minnesota is another. I mean, nothing about their loss this week is like, oh, no, the Vikings are done. I mean, that team is still really good. New Orleans to me is the number one seed in the NFC in terms of if I was trying to handicap the race. I think they're the best team in the NFC. You know, they had a rough night against Atlanta, but that team's still top to bottom. I believe they have the best roster with Wentz out. Philly is still in there probably. I mean, I just think that the rest of their talent is too good for them to be out of it because

of Wentz. I think that I disagree a little bit. I think that they're so good top to bottom. That's the reason they could make the Super Bowl because I do think teams like Minnesota and New Orleans are really good. But I think that you're putting Philly in there, but they're closer to the bottom. And the other team I'm putting in there is, if, he comes back.

Oh, yeah. Why can't Green Bay make it? 100%. So those five teams are in there. I think New Orleans is right now number one. I still would probably put Minnesota number two even after losing to Carolina. It's on the road. A couple bad breaks.

The Panthers defensive line played excellent. You had a couple injuries from Minnesota's offensive line that showed up in a big way. I mean, Julius Pepper's just roasted Jeremiah Surlis for most of the game. Mario Addison had a great day. Part of it was against Riley Reef. part of it was against a hurt Riley Reef, so it's a combination of stuff. But I was very impressed with Carolina.

And it was in a lot of different ways. I think the reason I think they're so dangerous, and I maybe didn't give them enough credit going into this game, is one, because of that defensive line. Yeah. When you can dominate a game up front like that, it gives you a chance against anybody. And again,

against a better offensive line, not as banged up. Maybe they can't do that. But this team has really gotten after the quarterback all season. Two, I know the numbers aren't very good. but Newton just can make some big time throws every single game. He did that on Sunday. He had won to Funches.

There was a back shoulder fade down the left sideline. There was just a dime. I mean, a ridiculous throw. And then he had won to burst in earlier in that drive. They just asked him to do so much. And the balls he has to fit into some of those windows. And it's a very high difficulty level quarterback offense. The bar is extremely high for the quarterback that plays in it.

And he's one of the only guys. physically that I think could make it happen. And I don't think it's a good passing offense. I think it's extremely inefficient, but he can still make it work just based on the skills that he has. And three, the two can still move around back there, man. I mean, he had a 60-yard run that pretty much gave them the game.

And then his second touchdown to his touchdown to Funches, he's running around back there, avoiding three people. I mean, just the volatility that that offense has with him is a good thing, not a bad thing. They're starting to run the ball a little better. I think they're in the mix here, and I probably wouldn't have said that before Sunday. I watched all of that game, and I came away thinking every single bit of what they did on Sunday was legit, and I think that it can be transferable against any team in this conference in the playoffs.

His yards per attempt is down a full yard from his 2015 NBA NFL season. But I just don't think the difference is that huge because it's like you say, he still has a ceiling as high. as almost anybody in the league. He reminds me a little bit of a couple years ago of Dwayne Wade where just every once in a while he'd make a play

that just remind you who he is and that maybe he was less consistent than he was in his absolute peak which would have been two years ago for Newton but like every once in a while

he just does and I'm Cam Newton play I want to do the exercise that you did where we talked about who can make the Super Bowl and the NFC the answer is literally everybody like

with the extent Seattle can make it. You don't think Seattle can. I think they can't. That's interesting. I just don't think that their defense is good enough. I feel like there's too many things that have to break right for them. For them to make it.

The only, I was playing around the playoff machine and there's a chance the Lions could sneak in. No, thank you. That would be my team that would not make the Super Bowl. Especially because they got to play those red hot Chicago Bears on Sunday. They might not even win that game. Well, I don't think for some reason, I don't understand how this happened.

but the lions were in on the I was running all the scenarios for the dolphins to make it because I thought it was so funny and so I did on the on the machine like just if all the winning percentage people went out

and but then I think that the lions beat the Packers the Lions have the Bears Bengals and Packers I don't want this I really don't want them to make it It would require it would require like the Seahawks

Nosed diving I want my the two wildcard teams to be Atlanta and Green Bay you don't want it to be the Seattle Seahawks. No, because I'd rather, I want to see Atlanta because I think Atlanta's better, and I want Green Bay to make the playoffs, I think it'd be fun. It sucks to leave Seattle on the cutting room floor, but I feel like they're the team that has to go at this point for me.

Is Aaron- I have a question. Is Aaron, why are we, I don't know the answer to this. Why are we assuming the Aaron Rogers is going to come back in 100%? It doesn't matter. I'm a little bit worried, quite frankly. Like, I feel like maybe we're, I don't want him to rush back. We talked about this.

I know a couple weeks ago. We talked about this last week. If he's back, if he's on the field, it doesn't matter to me. I've seen this movie before. Yeah, I've seen this movie before too. It's called Tony Romo breaking his collar bone every time it takes a snap. No, I've seen Tony. We literally saw Aaron Rogers do this.

It already happened. It went fine. And he was really good. That's why I'm thinking it could happen again. Because it's happened to me before. So the team's, trying to make the playoffs. I understand what they're feeling right now with the idea of him coming back.

They lost the first playoff game now here. True. They weren't very good. I mean, they really weren't that good of a team, but the only reason they were in the playoffs is because of him. Right. No, I shouldn't. All right. Let's go to third down. Let's actually stick with Seattle for a little bit. We knew that Seattle Jacksonville game was a

matchup full of really good defensive players. I'm not sure if we thought we'd see plays like this one. First down to 10 for the 25, Bortles takes the shotgun snap, fakes the handoff, steps up. He's going to take a deep shot down the field. Killing Cole makes the catch 40, 35, 30, down the far sideline, 20, inside the 10, inside the 5, all the way to the end zone. Touchdown Jacksonville, a 75-yard strike. Blake Bordell's hitting Keel and Cole in stride and the Jags right back in front.

Kevin, you got to give it to him. Blake Porl's put pretty well on Sunday. Strapping dimes. Yeah, man. I don't know. He's got those games. And I wrote about this last week when Joe Flacco and Bortals both had those big. games. And Flacco, it just seemed like it was kind of a new step. And we actually saw him play

decent again on Sunday. For Portals, it was much more of a ping pong. He's back and forth all year. These games are lingering for him. And with this defense, it's what makes Jacksonville kind of scary. I mean, watching that game, there were a couple of throws where you just assume Russell Wilson's going to make them when he has time. Yeah. The deep shot to Baldwin. And then he had one where he escaped the pocket and tried to hit Graham along the sideline. It was picked off by AJ Boyer, I don't think anyone talked about the throw. It was a 40-yard strike that was perfect on the run. But that's what Jacksonville is doing right now.

I mean, it just seems like those two guys can cover the entirety of the secondary, and it makes throwing against them almost impossible. I mean, I was so impressed with what they did defensively again on Sunday. I didn't know what to say. Are the Jaguars... I saw a headline earlier this morning on CBS. It was like Blake Bortles is making... the Jaguar is a legitimate threat to the Patriots.

I'm not going to go that far at this point. But could they beat the Steelers? They already did. I mean, they beat the hell of the Steelers. That was a very different Steelers team. I agree. And the Steelers' office is playing so much better right now. But I just feel like the defense is so good that what you need from Bortles is just a roll

with a dice. And if it comes up the right way, they have a shot. It reminds me. You know, their closest competition is it's the dead pit Manning Broncos team. That's a really good comparison, actually. And what happened there, I remember this very vividly. I remember joking about the Panthers blowing out the Broncos when like five minutes after the matchup was set. And someone was like, someone in football, like, you know, good defenses don't get blown out.

It doesn't happen. And it's going to be an extremely choppy game. and it will come down to a lot of luck, right? And so then I started to view it and I started to watch a little bit of film and I realized that the Broncos are going to win the game. And they did. And I feel like a similar thing could happen here

in at least one or two of the playoff matchups with the Jaguars. And it's just exactly what you said. It's roll of the dice. They hold a team to 13 points. They get a defensive touchdown. They get some good returns. And then Blake Bortles makes one play.

That may be all. all you need to pull a massive upset in playoffs. The only bad loss they have right now, as you look at their schedule, really bad, is against the Jets. I mean, losing to the Cardinals isn't fun, but that Jets team, that Jets game was just a game they shouldn't lose. They gave up these two long runs. That's the weird spot on their schedule, because you assume late in the season, you know,

they're in the midst of six wins and seven games that you lose a game like that Arizona game. Boral Slays an egg, you play on the road against the defense with some DCs, and players, those happen. But for the most part... Also, we also, everyone during that Jets game was sort of buying. And remember people were like,

well, who's the real sleeper? The Jets or the Jaguars? It was a very different Jets team. It was a very different Jets team. I think it's a different Jaguars team. That's when they could stop the run for anything. You know, they're 23rd and run defense TVOA right now. That'll go up over the course of the year.

I think if you looked at that weighted, it'd be much better. The Darius thing has helped. I feel like they've kind of figured that out. So again, as teams settle into who they are as the season goes, the Jaguars have only gotten better. So I think that you're absolutely right. I mean, there are a defense that is every bit as good as it seems.

This isn't a scenario where the offense is bad, so we're saying the defense is better than it is. That's not true at all. It's really, really good. I would pick having the best past defense and a mediocre run defense every time, and that's what the Jags have. And every, it's not a fluke. Everything they do top to bottom is excellent.

I mean, if I'm watching that game again, Malie Jackson has that sack late. Campbell has the hit on the last throw from Wilson to kind of seal the game. They have so many guys on an individual play basis that can beat you. And I feel like that's going to show up. I mean,

the Steelers and the Patriots do not want to play Jacksonville. If you're picking teams in the AFC in that bottom tier after those top two, they are the team you want to see the least. I would put the chargers right after them. When I was thinking with Doug Peterson, making the Super Bowl and doing his press conference and having no idea what's going on, I'm now thinking about how the funniest people to be doing Super Bowl press conferences.

Doug Marone, the answer. Doug Maron. It's like Super Bowl press conferences are like 3,000 people there. Yeah, it's great. Like it's just, you know, it's like a bunch of international media everywhere asking weird questions and just maroon. That'd be great. That would be awesome. Just the way you said that was fantastic.

All right, let's very quickly, before we get to Danny, let's get to Fort Down. And we'll talk about that back half of the AFC playoff picture that I just kind of mentioned. So the bills continue to hang around thanks to some half-like conditions in Buffalo on Sunday. McCoy in the backfield takes the handoff, runs up the middle, breaks a tackle. He's inside the 10, cuts to the left, into the end zone. Buffalo wins. 21-yard touchdown run by the Bills. They win in overtime, 13 to 7, and a whole host of bills are diving all over the snow

and chasing down LaShawn McCoy in the left corner of the end zone as the bills pull it out in overtime. First question here, Kevin. Is LaShawn McCoy in a Blizzard the greatest player in NFL history? Yes. We've seen this twice now, and the other one was when he played for Philly against the Lions that won. where he rush for 200 yards. He's unstoppable when there's snow on the ground. It's amazing.

What a skill. And it's not surprising. When you think of just the way he plays, his style is all the cuts and everything else. Footing is so important. And when he has the advantage of knowing where he's going and other people not having chains on their sneakers, it's probably going to be an issue.

He's also from up north, from Pennsylvania. so he probably wasn't when he was younger. There's a lot of guys a lot of guys more than you think who are from the South I'm one of them

but I'm not an NFL player who were just like I'm shutting it down in the cold didn't Leonard Fournett say that? He was not happy Leonard Fournett literally said like I'm not gonna that's not going to be happening

like there's a lot more guys who just opt out than you think and just want to go back inside Listen, man, I don't blame them. I'm up in Chicago right now. I completely understand. All right. With that win, the bills are back in the six spot in the AFC.

This whole thing is a mess. I don't, I'm not sure there's a way, I don't think handicapping is worth the time. I mean, at this point, I think what I'm rooting for is I would like to see the Titans not make it because the Titans are very good. And I have no interest in watching them in the playoffs. And after this week, that seems like it's possible. So in my mind, I still think the two teams I'd like to see just in period make the AFC playoffs are Baltimore and San Diego. So wherever the Chargers play.

Remember how we kept joking about how all, if we just stuck with all our predictions and never moved off them, we would look a lot smarter than than we currently do. Yeah. You know what one of those predictions was that that that we backed off of, both of us backed off of emphatically, and I wish we hadn't, the Mike Malar. thing. Yeah. Because we sat here and we were like,

Mike Malarkey is just a garbage hire. And then we're like, wow, look at Mike Malarkey. And now the first take was correct. Yes, I agree. So, okay, if you're sitting here, all right. So I think we can both say that the chargers are just a good team. That probably will be a factor in the playoffs if they make it.

Just pencil that in. Would you rather see the Chiefs and the Ravens? Are those the three teams you would like to see get in here? the chiefs and the Ravens? I would not, I don't want to see the Ravens. Okay, so who would you rather see then? I have no, I just don't, I would, don't want, I want one of the teams to get a buy.

One of the Wildcard teams to get a buy. You just don't want, you just all five teams? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and then we'll just do them out. No, I mean, I guess, I'd rather see the Titans than the Ravens. Okay, I can understand that a little bit? I would not. Okay. I think the Ravens are just a better team.

Okay. That defense, that they got lit up by it. Can I, can I, can I? Can I try to persuade you? Sure. Okay, is the ESPN report. The Titans last play of the game was a throw to Adori Jackson. Yeah, yeah.

They hadn't practiced the play before. They just told him to run his route. The pass went his way. Okay, that's what happened. And obviously the play did not work. I think he was supposed to be like just like jailbreak screen, try to get something, make something happen. I understand trying to get the ball in his hands. Isn't that something you should practice, though?

at the end of a game situation if we're trying to do this. Explain it to him like 20 minutes before we're going to do it. Like, hey, I thought about something. I want that team in the playoffs. I want Malarkey making up plays in the sideline. Yeah, that's fair. I don't know.

Marcus Marriota. To me is more interesting than Joe Flacco. I agree, but the Ravens are just playing better. I know they lost that game, but they move the ball. I'm looking at the pro football. 538 football odds report. I just want to say that Green Bay and the Dolphins have the same exact playoff odds at 6%.

Is there a more just opposite, like one team we both, everyone desperately wants to make the playoffs and one team just everyone would just turn off their TV in mass and they had the same exact odds. One of these teams is making it. But you know, it being 2017, I think we know exactly which 6% team is making it. No, that's very true.

I know. I just, I can't deal with this time of the year. I really, really can't. All right, Kevin. Let's move on. Let's get to your craziest headline of the week. Lay it on me. You know, I actually was looking earlier.

And I was a bit surprised that Belichick took a stance that he, did you see the press cameras last night? No, I did not. I mean, I was paying attention to it on Twitter. I saw like that one. where he just didn't answer the question. Well, he said, give me a break when he was asked about the Steelers. Whether or not they were looking ahead to the Steelers. Yeah, I saw that.

And I got to be honest with you. I know that we have built up the Patriots as this otherworldly, you know, inhuman machine, but they're still human. And I wouldn't be surprised if that's a lot of it. You know, I mean, they're playing on Monday night. So then they have the Steelers next week. That's less time to prepare, obviously. It's a huge game.

Everybody's been talking about it basically since we realized that the Steelers were going to be contenders. And this game was likely going to be for home field. I was surprised by that kind of dismissal because I wouldn't be surprised if that played a sleight role into it. Yeah. I mean, at a certain point for all the Belichickian bullshit that there is, they're human beings. They're guys. Yes. As much as we want to ascribe the superhuman quality.

to his ability to brainwash them. The Patriot Way. The Patriot Way means not knowing that there's a huge game next week. Yeah, exactly. Unless you do an entire media blackout or don't tell the players, there really does need to be some brainwashing going on. Like, mind control is necessary in order for them to not find out they're playing the Steelers next week. I just, this idea that players are machines is almost offensive to me. These are just guys. Like, I've talked to these guys.

They have feelings and interests just like we do. And so I do not. I think the trap game mentality could have snuck in here. And I think it'll be fine. I think the Patriots are still going to make the Super Bowl, whatever. But, you know, just be honest, Bill. Yeah. I mean, trust me.

I'm with you on that one. I feel like it's kind of ridiculous. Everything that goes on with, again, what we ascribe to his power. Yeah. Eventually, it's just not going to matter every once in a while. All right. Let me get to my ringer of the week. And I'm going to go with someone from my Chicago Bears.

I'm going to be honest. Kyle Fuller had his second ridiculous game in as many weeks. He played a fantastic last week against San Francisco. Interception, past breakup in the red zone. And he comes back and follows that with an outstanding day against AJ Green. Targeted nine times, allowed three catches. Got to be honest with you. Had no idea with Kendall Fuller, or Kyle Fuller looked good.

Kyle Fuller. excuse me, Kyle Fuller looked good on Sunday. I missed that. Great. I missed that performance. He was excellent. Allowed three catches, 14 yards, three passes, defense. I mean, for the second straight week just came out and played extremely well.

And the reason that I'm kind of highlighting this is that I want to talk about just kind of the bears younger guys in general. Kyle Fuller isn't that young. But at this point in the season, when you have a really terrible football team, all you're hoping for is that you have a couple of glimpses of, all right, maybe this is getting better. maybe this is getting better. And the fact that Fuller was written off as a lost cause before the season. And now, okay, you know, what do they do at Corner next year? Do they bring him back? He's playing extremely well.

That's something you can latch on to. The Bears' entire rookie class looked great on Sunday. Trubisky played by far the best game he's played as a pro against a very real NFL defense. Adam Shaheen caught a touchdown pass. Eddie Jackson stripped AJ Green on the sideline. There was a huge play. The Bears got the ball back. Jareke Cohen again looked excellent.

So at this point in the year, if you have a team like this, this is all you have, is there one or two silver linings every week of can this be better with a few changes in the offseason up top to the roster, everything else? And for the first time in a while, watching the Bears on Sunday, it was like, okay, maybe. You know, maybe this is headed in the right direction with a couple of the young guys with the draft classes that we've had in the last couple seasons. And again, the way Trubisky played, that's the stuff you need. I mean, that is what you need to see to keep coming back.

And I was very pleased with everything about that. Them winning sucks in a way because now they have the seventh pick in the draft. But I'd rather give up a couple spots and have actual reasons for hope moving forward. Speaking of hope, Jimmy Garapo looks freaking good. Yeah, he looks good. He had a couple just very no regard for where the ball was going throws on Sunday. But I think that's a product of a lot of things. I mean, that offense, there's not much help there.

Their offensive line is dinged up in the wrong ways. I'm very impressed. I'm extremely happy with what he could be in that offense. And I think the trade is a 100-foot home run for San Francisco. I want to go back to Kyle Fuller for a second because I accidentally called him Kendall, who is his brother. They're related, yeah. There are four Fullers who played in the NFL, Vincent Fuller, Corey Fuller, Kyle Fuller, and Kendall Fuller. I feel like we should talk more about this.

Like, I feel like we should, like the Sutter. Remember the Sutter brothers in hockey? I do. A lot of them made their way through Chicago. The Fuller Brothers is just incredible. How many Truffant's made the NFL? But they weren't brothers, right? Some of them were.

Desmond and Marcus are cousins. No, that's his brother. Are they? I thought they were cousins. Marcus, Truffant, Isaiah Truffant, and Desmond Truffant are all brothers. Oh, I did not know that. I thought they were cousins. That's my bad.

But the point, that's not the issue here. The issue here is the Fuller brothers have a full brother more in the NFL. Yeah, there's only three Gronks and three Watts, right? How many Grunks made the NFL? I think three, right? Very briefly. Or maybe just two. I mean, the different,

the true fonts and the Fullers had careers. I mean, the Watts have a chance. I mean, Derek Watt has a chance to come back or whatever. T.J. and JJ are obviously going to be. They're still on the Chargers. No, I'm saying he's been on it for, for two years, for one year. Yeah, that's fair. I'm saying that the Fuller's like got, you know, at least through the rookie contracts.

The Truffant did obviously as well. Cal Fulor barely did. That's why this year is so weird. The fact that they didn't get, do his fifth year option and now it's like, man, they probably have to bring him back. It's weird. It's been a strange season. Continuing the Fuller legacy.

Yeah, exactly. All right. Coming up, Danny's going to come talk about a very rough day for the Seahawks. Plus, we'll talk about who might be able to jump Seattle in the playoff chase down the stretch. That's next on the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer podcast network. Kevin, I don't think you realize how cold it is in Chicago right now. We're talking 18 degrees. My ears almost fell off this morning.

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Yeah, that was brutal. That was a brutal ending. The Seahawks have kind of needed a habit of doing that stuff at the end of the games. It's pretty dumb. I mean, as Seahawks fan, you want them to be competitive and all that, but that kind of stuff is just, it's just embarrassing, really. It just doesn't need to happen. That's one step over the line.

I think going after guys and the Neal is just not okay. I mean, that's just one of those things where everyone's a professional, like, let's act like it. And so that stuff is just kind of unacceptable. But as unacceptable is what happened in this stands. It just, I was very upset about it. I was tweeting about it when it happened. Yeah. It's,

those guys should not have to deal with that at their place of business. Like, it just no matter what happened, that is one step too far. It's, I don't, it really does get me riled up in a way. It probably shouldn't.

I mean, that was, I completely agree. It's, and it was one of those things where if Seahawk fans were complaining about that, then there, and then Jags fans were saying,

oh, well, you know, your player took a shot. Like, they're, they're totally unrelated. That's absolutely unrelated.

Yes. What Bennett did was terrible. But, But completely unrelated to that. Like, don't throw stuff from the, from the seats or whatever. It's just terrible. It's, you know, it's something that needs to stop. I know it doesn't just have it.

It's not only happened in Jacksonville. It's happened all over the NFL. It sucks. It's just something that, you know, the NFL needs to crack down on. Yeah. You should never be able to attend an NFL game again if you do that. I mean, I just, I don't think that's an overreaction. All right.

With that Seahawks loss and with wins from really every other NFC playoff hopeful, things are getting interesting for some of the teams on the fringe of the wild card race here. In your mind, Danny, we've talked a little bit about the NFC race today. Which of those teams do you think has the best chance to leapfrog Seattle and steal a spot here? I mean, okay, so I went over it like 10 times this morning. And for the teams that are basically still in it, like the Lions, Packers, and Cowboys, those are the teams that are right behind Seattle right now. Obviously, the Falcons and the Panthers would be in it if it started today.

For me, I'm not confident in the Lions. I know we talked about them a few weeks ago. Neither are we. My confidence in them has waned. I'll put it that way. But they have by far the easiest schedule down the stretch. I mean, they play the Bears, Bengals. They're at home against the Bears on the road against Bengals

and they're at home against the Packers. They've already got one win against the Packers, so that helps. Right now, it sounds like the easiest way for them to make the playoffs for the Lions is they need Seattle to lose one game, which seems pretty likely. They need the Falcons to lose final two out of their three, which is also possible because the Falcons have, they're at the bucks, at the Saints,

and then at home against the Panthers. The Seahawks have a really tough schedule, Rams, Cowboys, Cardinals. So just based on the final schedule, to me, it seems like the Lions have probably the best chance. But if I was, like, putting money on it, the Packers, well, we have to figure out, what happens, I don't know what time this

podcast is going to publish if we'll know about Aaron Rogers yet, but obviously if Aaron Rogers is back, that gives the Packers a pretty good boost, even though, again, their schedule is brutal at Panthers, Vikings, at Lions. Guys, Ryan Longwell was just inducted into the Packers

Hall of Fame. Sure. Are we sure about that? I'm looking at the Packers Hall of Fame here. I'm looking at the Packers Hall of Fame. Kind of a low bar. I got to be honest. with you. Out of the low bar, guys.

Those are always interesting to me. Who gets in the team Hall of Fame? It's just a craft shoot. Chris Jackie, who is the kicker that Longwell replaced is also in. God, Chris Jackie. What years did he play?

89 and 96. I do not remember that very well. I was until I was nine. I should be Emilio's in the Hall of Fame. I'm not sure about that. I don't know about that. No, I think he should be in the Hall of Fame. Nick Collins?

Yes. Okay. I think the height of your career matters for Hall of Fames. And I think that Nick Collins had a one hell of a height of his career. Okay. Okay. So you're on board with Don Madiakowski is in. Are you talking about overall Hall of Fame or just Packers Hall of Fame?

No, the Packers Hall of Fame. Okay, okay, okay. KGB had 75 sacks. Why is an Aaron Campman in? Is he not? He's not in. How many sex that Aaron Kamen have? I don't know.

I was joking. Aaron Kamen had a really nice career. I always got snubed by the Packers Hall of Fame. Only 58. Unbelievable. Two-time pro bowler though. Two-time second team, all-pro. Man, Aaron Kamman looks like Bradley Cooper.

Do you just Google this? How do you know all this stuff? No, we memorized it. We memorized the Packer Hall of Fame. Because they're like trivia masters. I'll tell you. Marco Rivera is in here. Aaron Kamman looks a lot like

Bradley Cooper. This is weird. This is weird. I did not expect this. This is great radio. But if you guys want to look it up, he really does. I didn't know we were going to be talking about the Packers Hall of Fame here. Hey, listen, I can dig into a lot of early 2000s Packers players, if you want me to.

Robert Brooks is in. He was good. Yeah, that makes sense. Is Antonio Freeman in? He is. He is. I'm not sure how Robert Brooks would have been. He wouldn't.

I think this is kind of, we're doing this in a way because the only thing that really matters here is if the Packers get in? No, I just saw this 10 minutes ago and I just desperately wanted to bring up how many people were in the Packers Hall of Fame. And I was just waiting for a jumping off point. And then Danny brought up the Packers. Here's what I'm at the team hall fame thing though.

Why not? Like, what's the downside of letting these guys in? The Patriots have significantly, I know their Hall of Fame hasn't been around as long as the Packers has, but they have significantly fewer members. They're more selective. Yeah It's the Patriot Way man

They've been like 20 straight years They're never looking forward to the next Hall of Fame Right exactly Belichette's going to burn the Hall of Fame to the ground because it might be a distraction

Danny if you were to face one of these teams in the playoffs Say like every team in the mix for a wild card So let's say Carolina Atlanta Green Bay Which team as a Seahawks fan

Would you want to play the least? That's a good question Probably the Packers especially oh I mean this is obviously a huge caveat if Aaron Rogers is I understand you don't mean the Packers with Brett Huntley or the Panthers because I mean the Seahawks have just had a lot of really really tough matchups with the Panthers over the years and so that that's just always a really tough physical

it's almost like a division game for Seahawks but I mean just the Packers right now based on the Seahawks injuries you know in the secondary and I'm now like Bobby Wagner and KJ Ryder potentially out for a little bit So that's huge. I mean, like, just going down the stretch, the Seahawks defense is so banged up that it's terrifying to think of going up against Aaron Rogers with that kind of thing. So, yeah. Atlanta doesn't scare you. I mean, every team that's in the, like, even the Cowboys right now are still, you know, that's the Seahawks play the Cowboys week 16.

And that, to me, is a, that's a huge game. That's a really tough game. That team, you know, they can run the ball really well. They're going to have Zeke back. I still a big believer in Dak Prescott so I mean any of these teams are good

yeah I mean the Falcons have been the Seahawks in the playoffs obviously so yeah I mean any of these teams is gonna be the year Danny might be the year where you guys have to watch on the couch

during wildcar weekend I would not be surprised by that it is not I mean honestly it's looking grim the injury situation is really concerning obviously if the Seacx beat the Rams this week that'll put him in a really good position to win the division

but I mean, yeah, they're going, they're going to be playing the Rams who are getting healthier without, probably without Bobby Wagner, obviously without Sherman Chancellor, and then maybe KJ. Wright, who got a concussion last week. So they're losing, they're out like they're, you know, four of their best players. So it's just rough. You know, even if it's at home, that's still a really good Rams offense. And, you know, it's an NFC West division game. So it's always tough.

It's just not, it's not looking good. If they don't win out, it's going to be really tough. So, yeah, I'm worried. But that way. NFC, man. The NFC is brutal. All right, Danny, thanks a lot, buddy. We will talk to you again on Friday, as we always do.

We appreciate it and talk to you soon. All right. Sounds good, guys. All right, Kevin. Before we get out of here, let's offer our last thing impressions from week 14. What you got? There's only four. There's not even a Seahawks Hall of Fame.

They just list the Hall of Famers who were on the Seahawks. Dehawks of which they were here for. They have guys hanging in the rafters though there. They have retired numbers. Yeah. That's close. Steve Largent. Jim Zorn. Okay.

My lasting impression. I mean, it is what we talked about all show, which is Carson Wentz and the year of of disappointment. And here we had a quarterback and a team that was going to

make us forget about 2017 and instead they reinforced it and that's the shame of it all and I wish it were different but it's now we have Nick Foles if he makes the Super Bowl more power to him

but it's not going to be the same the Wenswagon was a beautiful thing and I'm looking forward to it next fall yeah I was going to do something similar I mean I think that the resignation I felt during that play when I saw him walking off,

it was depressing. Just like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. Very quickly, I knew it was a problem when it was third down

and they didn't get it, and it became fourth down. And Wentz was very quickly trying to go to the sideline it looked like. Like, you know how every quarterback does the, it's fourth down I want to go for it thing? Yeah.

Including Wentz. And, like, you know, Phil Rivers isn't going to come off the feet. You know what I'm saying? And you could see Wentz, like as soon as the play was over,

start to walk back to the sideline, and I was like, hmm, something's wrong here because quarterbacks always pretend that they're going to go forward and forth down. And they actually did go front on fourth down. He had to sort of walk back out there.

I mean, he walked a total of 15 yards, I'm talking about. That scene just, you know, as he walked off is, again, the resignation that I felt while it happens,

like this is just this year. And this sucks. I can't believe I'm used to this and just expect it to happen by now. So, yeah, I was going to talk about that. Again, we talked about when it's all show.

I'm going to do something that's more of a lasting impression about football in general. Devin Hester retired today. And as a football fan, few things have given me more joy about this sport than watching Devin Hester. I mean, that 2006 season, that was a magical run for the team in general, but he was a huge part of it. And there are so many Devin Hester plays. I think this is when you know that certain moments have landed with you and they stick with you.

You remember where you were when they happened. and almost every single one of the big Devin Hester returns, I remember where I was. That Arizona punt return on Monday night when the Bears had that incredible comeback, I was in my dorm room at Missouri. When he returned the field goal against the Giants, I remember I was watching with a couple buddies

at a sports bar there. When he returned those two punts against Denver in 2007 and the Bears won that impossible game, I was at the airport as an O'Hare waiting to go back to school after Thanksgiving. And I remember really being glad the plane was delayed because it meant I got to watch the rest of the game, and I would have missed both of those, if not.

And then you think about the Super Bowl return. I remember I was visiting my college girlfriend in Illinois. I watched it with a bunch of people in the dorm. I remember he returned a punt on Monday night against Green Bay in 2010. I was in London. It was three in the morning, and I had to convince the people running the bar in Piccadilly Circus to keep it open until four so I could watch the rest of the game.

And that's what Devin Hester was. He was just this constant source of excitement. And every time he went back to return a kick, whether you were in the stadium, whether you were watching on TV, you were glued to the television because you'd absolutely no idea what could happen. And those teams were so strange in how they were successful, but they were. And he played as much a role in that as anybody else. He's the greatest kick returner of all time. It's not even a conversation. And I feel like if you have that distinction, you 100% belong in the Hall of Fame.

So those are my Devin has your thoughts. It was a special time. And thank you very much, Devin, for all you did for us, Bears fans. It was very nice. Thanks, buddy. All right. That's it for today. We'll be back on Friday to get everything set for week 15, which had some huge games.

The games that some teams were looking forward to when they shouldn't have been. As always, thanks for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer podcast network.