The Ringer NFL Show - The Only Surprises in Week 5 Were Bad Ones (Ep. 157)

Episode Date: October 10, 2017

The Ringer’s Robert Mays and Kevin Clark recap Week 5, including how the Jaguars have built a new model for success in the NFL (04:30), why Big Ben might be afraid to play football every Sunday (11:30), and which teams are actually the best in the NFC (18:30). Then, Danny Kelly joins the show to explain why the Texans' defensive injuries will lead to more exciting performances from Deshaun Watson (39:00), and how Alex Smith has become the fourth-best quarterback in the league (41:30). Finally, Robert and Kevin field some interesting listener questions from Twitter (47:00), and the guys offer their lasting impressions, including why it’s a bad idea to legislate politics out of the NFL right now (55:30). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. I want to tell you about the ringers gambling podcast. It is called Against All Odds with Cousin' Sal. And you're not going to believe of this, but it's hosted by Cousin Sal. The biggest degenerate gambler that I know. He's such a degenerate. He has three other degenerates that he calls the degenerate trifecta. And they break down every conceivable gambling thing you would ever want to gamble on. They even take it to Captain Morgan's Make Belief Casino where Sal makes up props on all kinds of things.

Sports, pop culture, you name it. you are going to want to get your gambling advice from these guys. Cousin Sal, he's been a staple on the BS podcast for the last 10 years. So good that we gave him his own podcast. Check it out against all odds with Cousin Sal. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark.

Week 5 is in the books. I'm not sure I know anything now that I didn't know before the weekend started. It just feels like the teams that are really good are really good. good and there aren't that many of them. Well, I think the important thing is what did you think about Mitch Trubisky? That's probably the most important thing, right? I think that

he came away from that game like I expected him to. He was really good at times. That first drive and even that first half. It's a couple really nice throws. Similar to the preseason where when he's on the move, he's so accurate and his ability to kind of make plays happen when stuff breaks down and in circumstances that not most

quarterbacks would be able to survive in. But then over the course of the game, he looks like a rookie quarterback. He missed the check on a third down in the first half where he just can't run that play when they show blitz in that situation. He just let it happen anyway. He's tapping his chest after he's like, I know that's on me. The pick to Harrison Smith at the end, you can't make that throw. I mean, just one of those things he'll learn. Even the touchdown, you can't make that throw.

The tipped one in Zach Miller. There are certain plays you're not going to be able to make. And it feels like he doesn't have a ton of awareness right now, but just on a talent, I was impressed. It's hard to judge rookie quarterbacks just because your aptitude in your rookie year is almost entirely predicated on what you knew in college. It's like anything. If you go into a new job and you've done something similar before you've used the same,

you know, if you're in an office job and you use the same equipment before, you sort of know the transition's easier. And so it's hard for me to make any sweeping judgments after one season and certainly one game. So I'm withholding judgment. I like what I saw generally, though. Yeah, I was impressed by him. I feel like it's going to get better. His receivers aren't going to do him many favors over the course of the season.

I mean, that's the one problem with throwing him into this situation is that even if the line is good and he's not going to get beat up, though Everson Griffin kind of did what he wanted to Charles Leno at times last night, there aren't going to be any plays that are made for him on the other end. And I think that's a tough thing as a receiver. I mean, even Sean Watson, having Hopkins and even Will Forer to help him out with some of this stuff is a big boost. the bears don't have any of that on the outside. I like Leonard Floyd now. He's interesting to me.

I was watching him a lot last night. And I feel like his game is so unique for a talented pass rusher. He's very small. He's not a natural guy around the edge. Like, Von Miller is so comfortable just getting low to the ground and being able to bend back to the quarterback. Floyd is not that guy. He's much better on inside stunts, things like that.

So I feel like his game is never going to be quite to the level of those truly dominant edge play. but he still has a style that works for him. I can also confirm that he is not Von Miller. Thanks, buddy. I've looked into that. I've looked into that. You know, the biggest thing I learned,

he said things we didn't know, didn't really come through last week. I do think the Jaguar is going on the road and winning by 21 points is pretty damn good. We'll get to that. We're going to get into that. We're going to get into the Steelers. A lot to talk about just from games between

seeming contenders in both conferences. I think that there's a lot to parse here. We're going to get to all of it. Danny Kelly's going to join us to talk about Alex Smith, who might be the fourth best quarterback in the league now. These are the types of things we're going to have to address today. We're also going to take a few of your questions from Twitter. But for right now, let's get to our four downs,

which are four biggest stories of the week. Kevin, let's start with you. What was the biggest thing that jumped out to this weekend? I think a theme is developing in my mind for this season. I don't think anybody is really talking about. In 2014, I had a long conversation with then Brown's general manager. your Ray Farmer. And he didn't leave a huge impact in the league, certainly.

He got fired in 2016. But he said something that I kind of think about a lot, which is that what he wanted to do was acknowledge there's a quarterback pipeline issue, that they're not the quarterbacks coming to the league in the way that they used to 10, 15, 20 years ago. And there's a million reasons for that. But what you have to do instead is develop a team that can win without the quarterback. And I think in the last five, six-year, certain. Certainly since 2011 when offensive passing numbers exploded, when points exploded, when, you know, it was easier than never to play quarterback.

In those years, being a team with a good quarterback was the absolute bare minimum to compete in the NFL. And so what Farmer wanted to do was build a team without the quarterback as the focal point. And we talked about this, and he didn't really know how to do it. And that sort of bore itself out over Ray Farmer's career in which he not only didn't get the quarterback. but also didn't build a team in which in any reliable way could compete without a quarterback. So he was over two. But I've always thought about whether it was possible. I'm kind of getting excited right now because there's a few teams who might be doing it.

And we start out with the Jacksonville Jaguars. Blake Bordles is just not throwing the ball. He threw one pass in the second half. He threw one pass in the second half. That's incredible. If he has another game where he throws less than 12 passes and they score more than 29 points, I couldn't find a team that's ever done that three times in a year. He's already done it twice.

I mean, what the hell? This is great. I love this. And people are saying, oh, it's old school style, whatever. I don't even know this is old school, man. This is somewhat revolutionary. Just in the sense that in a sport that has become entirely predicated on the quarterback, I wrote this for the ringer.com today.

They're just saying, nah, now. I mean, he has 20 less attempts than James Winston. And James Winston's only played four games. He's played five. It's incredible because we talk about this every year, right? We see teams, the moves they make in the offseason. We try to piece together whatever their plan is going to be based on those moves. And when the Jags went out and they got Fernette with the fourth overall pick,

they drafted Cam Robinson in the second round. It's like, okay, this is the style they're going to want to play. We're kind of cruising toward that. And to see it happen in such full force so completely from the jump, it's been great. I mean, it's like, okay, they have a plan and they're following it, and it's kind of working. What's amazing is that even when you say we're going to build through the line and the run game and the toughness, the quarterback injury can still derail. Look at the Titans.

The Titans looked like they were built, even though I love Marcus Marriota, when you have a great line, when you have two decent running backs, when you add pieces on the defense, you seem like you're built to not have a quarterback. But then Marcus Marriott goes out and Matt Cass looks completely incompetent, okay? And so it's really hard to win without a quarterback. And the Jaguars being three and two, I know some of the wins have been weird, but maybe the Steelers are like a really legitimately bad team. I don't know. We'll get to that. But I just think it is so impressive what's happening right now.

And I'm just excited because every single team has won the same way the last six years, with the exception of the Broncos who had the worst quarterback in the league in Peyton Manning. But we didn't notice it because it was Manning. And that's my problem with, Not my problem with that strategy, but I think that's the downfall of that strategy is that the margin for error is non-existent. You literally have to build a perfect team around that non-existent quarterback in order to be functional. And Jacksonville, I mean, it's not a perfect team just because their defense that holds in certain ways.

Teams are able to run on them. But their past defense is so good. And I think that's the degree to which that is the most important element of defense is stark. You can have a bad run defense and. still be able to survive in the NFL. Look at what the Broncos did last year. Having a really good past defense still trumps everything else. And the Jags have done that.

They have built such a great past defending unit that it seems like that's the start of this quarterbackless team. And then also being able to look at a running back and say, you're going to face eight guys in the box every single down. Can you still make shit happen? And guess what? They have a monster back there. That guy is so fun.

And that's what you need. You need a running back that can exist completely on his own. Not completely. You need a somewhat, some semblance of a line, which they have. You need a running back that can make his own yardage, and you need a defense that can shut down other people against the pass. That's the starting of that, that's the start of that strategy and that formula. I think I saw a stat.

Marshawn Lynch is averaging like, I don't know, maybe less than three yards per carry when there's eight guys in the box. That's why the Raiders are struggling without Derek Carr. And that's why the Jaguars are able to thrive is because 104 and I can go with eight guys in the box. He can ask safeties to come towards him and then dunk on. them. I mean, I just, I love Leonard Fournette. And so I think one of the most interesting stats I saw this week, the two leading cornerbacks as far as completion percentage when thrown their way in the entire NFL are AJ Boy A and Jalen Ramsey. That's incredible. That's all you need to know

about the Jacksonville Jaguars. Having said that, and we'll get to the Steelers in a second, maybe you run the ball by Pittsburgh. So this is an incredible stat. So according to the next gen stats on NFL.com. The number one running back in the league facing, like the percentage of the time he faces eight-man boxes is Chris Ivory, which is 52.63. He also plays with the Jaguars. Then it's Mike Gillisley, which is interesting just because I feel like that probably, I guarantee you New England's going to look at that and say, we're too predictable with formation if he's facing that many guys all the time when he's getting it. They'll change that. And third is for a net at 47.71. I mean, that's the fact that they've been able to do this and churn this out knowing that it's

going to be tough sledding. It's an impressive. I like sticking to your guns like that. That is amazing. Are you worried at all about wear and tear? Of course. You have to be. He handing out of the ball 30 times a game, even if he's post-human, is still a dangerous proposition. I mean, you have to worry about that. I also, he's not exactly helping himself. I wrote about this yesterday, and a lot of people have talked about it. One of my favorite moments of Sunday is him waving on Mike Mitchell in the open field. That is so incredible. She's like, come on now. Like, what do you have for me? I just love that. The fact that he's just willing to do that and that's who he is,

he's a fun player. He really is. He's got a great personality too. He's going to be an absolute superstar. A year ago, a year ago, we did a thing at the ringer where it was a shootaround. So we had to submit names of people who were going to own sports in 2020.

And he was mine. Yeah, I don't blame you whatsoever. I mean, sometimes there are guys that are just that good and he seems to be. All right, let's get the second down. Let's stay on that game.

I feel like, much as it's fun to talk about the Jags because it is unique. It's a little bit of a different angle and a different story that we're used to in the NFL like you mentioned. I think it's time to talk about the Steelers. And I watched that game again this morning and Rothsburger threw five picks. I mean, that's never good. It's, you have a disaster of a game if that's the case, but he wasn't that bad. He wasn't five interceptions bad. But he wasn't good. Are we sure he wasn't five interceptions bad? Yeah, the ball got tipped. I mean, the Talvin Smith one was tipped. The Jalen Ramsey pick six was tip or the

the one that Jalen Ramsey tipped and that got returned for a touchdown. That was tipped. I mean, there are a lot of plays that it wasn't necessarily awful. It wasn't good, but it wasn't like throwing right to underneath guys that you didn't see. So I mean, I think that there are worst five interception games to have than the one he had.

That being said, it shouldn't even be that sort of, we don't should need to parse it like that. We shouldn't need to be how bad was Ben Rathesberger. see really five interceptions bad. And even that comment he made after the game, which is that I don't know if I have it anymore, even in jest,

it's incredible that this is the discourse around a Steelers team that should have one of the best offense in the league based on the players in that huddle. So now it's just a matter of, is there something seriously wrong with that team, either internally, structurally, or with the talent of the guys in the huddle?

And where do they sit right now in the AFC? Who would you say is the third best team in the AFC right now? If the chiefs are first and the Patriots are second, let's just throw those out there. I'm sorry, the Patriots are second. Yeah, why not? Who's better than the Patriots in the AFC? I don't know.

I think they're all sort of, they're all sort of thrown together right now. I don't know. The Broncos are three and one. The Broncos might be. I think that's probably the team you'd mention. Houston now is, it's going to be tough without Wad and Merciless, but you kind of had that feeling that they maybe would have ascended to the top of that division. I mean, it just, it seems like there's no real. teams outside of the truly good ones in the

AFC. I agree, but it's just like the Steelers are supposed to be there and it just doesn't feel like there's much in that second tier of teams in that conference. You know, I'm not going to gloat at all because I picked the Giants to win the NFC East, but I was shorting the Steelers for a while in the summer. I thought that the Levyon Bell thing was a weird situation at the locker room. There was a little

bit of locker room discord in the pre-season. which only gets worse as season goes along unless you start off 5 and 0. I mean, everyone has to be together in August or they're not going to be together in September, and they're certainly not going to be together in December. So I was sort of queasy about picking them to do anything meaningful, and I didn't. I think I picked them to make the playoffs, but lose it the first game. And so there's a lot of weirdness.

I think that, yes, the Levyon-Bell contract thing had an effect. I think Rathusberger pretending to retire in January had an effect and then kind of calling out his teammates. That has an effect when Rathusberger is not the most likable guy to start with in the locker room. I think that the CBS report over the weekend that Antonio Brown wanted to kneel for the anthem and he wasn't allowed to the first weekend where there were all those protests is interesting to me. And the fact that that played into, according to CBS, some of the sideline outbursts that he said. had. I don't know what the hell is going on. I think that Mike Tomlin is among the best leaders

in football. And I think if anyone can solve what's going on, it's him. But right now, I'm pretty worried. Yeah, I just expected so much more out of this offense. And again, the jacks are the best past defense in the league so far. I'm not mistaken. I did. And I've, because the defense is playing pretty well. And I thought that with combined with that offense, if the defense could take some strides, which it absolutely has, they would be a terrifying team. And the offense just hasn't been there. I mean, there's some injuries long line to start, but you combine that with Rodgersberger being so shaky and just not anything close to the best version of himself. And then you start to wonder, how much is that discord playing into it? How much is the conversations we were having about

him retiring before the season playing into it? When we talked about this, it's really hard to be half in in the NFL. If you're not all the way there, there are a lot of guys who are going to be. And you're playing against a Jaguars team that is full of young dudes who haven't been here before. And they're all the way there. And we saw that on Sunday. So I don't know. I'm not sure if this gets rated by the end of the season.

It's really interesting to me. I had a conversation years ago with a hockey player, an ex-hockey player. And he said a couple of things. Number one, he said once you start, and this is a general sports rule, this is not this guy. But he said, number one is once you start talking about retirement, it's over. And Michael Lombardi said that a couple weeks ago on this podcast. But then the second thing he said, I thought was really interesting, was about how there was a sort of end of a life cycle of an athlete.

And he said that what ends up happening when you're really on your last legs is you start to dread games because you're afraid of being embarrassed. And that you like practice more than games because you like the act of playing the sport because it's what you've done since you were five years old, but you don't want to do it publicly. because you start to get embarrassed. And I kind of think about that all the time. And I think about these players because they're just...

So I feel about writing on the internet. What's that? It's how I feel about writing on the internet. You just want to have it in your Google Docs, right? Exactly. And never wants to be published. Never let anybody see it. But I kind of think about that a lot because these guys are human.

And like the guys who are at the end, the tail end of their career who are at least thinking about retirement, they're processing all of this stuff. And man, we talk about distractions and 99% of them. them or complete BS. You know what's a distraction? Being freaking terrified. That's a distraction. And being freaking terrified of where your career is going. Remember, I'm not to go hockey on you again. I even like hockey. I remember reading Ken Dryden's book and he's talking about how, you know, at the end of a career, you're almost looking at yourself in the mirror like an actress would when she starts to realize that she's aging out of younger roles. I'm paraphrasing here. But that's

happening. And when you're at the end of your career, that happens. And if you start to talk about retirement, eight months where the season starts, that's not good. Can you imagine a worse pairing of general demeanor and position than Ken Dryden and goalie? That man has like one of the most active minds I've ever seen from an athlete. Yes. He wrote for Grantland. He wrote for Grant one. The man is brilliant.

And just to have that sort of mental capacity and having to live the existential dread of playing goalie all the time, it just seemed like a very tortured existence. It's a good book. I'm going to try for my 20th straight year to get into hockey. I believe in you, buddy. I played it when I was young, but I've just never had a team. You know, you know how it goes. Let's switch gears a little bit from a team that we thought would be a contender in the

AFC to the ones that seem like they are in the NFC for third down here. I felt like this week was a really intriguing one about the teams at the top of that conference. You had Green Bay going in and winning in Dallas because Aaron Rogers owns that stadium apparently. Carolina getting a nice win against Detroit, I think two teams that we were going to find out something about on Sunday just because they're playing well and they're good measuring stick for each

other. Dallas losing to Green Bay. How would you kind of stack up the NFC contenders right now? Who's at the top for you? Who do you not necessarily believe in? How do they sift out in your mind? Well, there's a group here. The teams with one losses

are Atlanta, Carolina, Green Bay, and Philadelphia. I think all those teams are good and I think all those teams are probably playoff teams if I had to guess. I think once you get into that, you're just getting into tiebreakers

and I'm going to give the tiebreaker to Aaron Rogers and I'm going to give the tiebreaker to Aaron Rogers because a lot of the injuries that have happened in Green Bay are minor and they'll be back and he'll have a healthy line at some point and I just, you know, and then it's Aaron Rogers. And he's done so much

with so little in the past five or six years. Not all the time, but there have been situations where he's been with no supporting cast. And so I think this supporting cast is pretty good by the standards of the last couple years. I think that if I had to make a bet on who would win the NFC right now, it would be the

Green Bay Packers. I don't want to get into that a lot right now because that might be related to my lasting impression at the end of the show. I agree with you. So let's get into some of the other teams if we're just kind of putting Green Bay aside because he's a dragon and there's nothing to do about that.

Philly has impressed me, and it's not in the way that I thought they were going to. I figured they would be this really dominant defensive team with all the talent they have on that side of the ball. And then you lose Fletcher Cox, Ronald Darby still isn't playing. So their defense has been good, but it hasn't been kind of the game wrecking crew I thought they were going to be. On the other side of the ball is where they've impressed me the most. We talk about the lack of good offensive linemen in the NFL all the time. And it seems like whenever you're making a counter argument to that, you throw out the same teams, right? It's Dallas.

it's Oakland, Tennessee. Rarely was Philly thrown into that group. And they are that good. I mean, they're right there with any of those units right now, especially running the ball. And because they don't have that really dynamic presence at running back, you know, it's Blown, it's Wendell Smallwood, and just guys that you aren't going to throw out

when you talk about Leonard Fernette, we're not going to mention those guys the same way, and we shouldn't. But they're good enough to get a lot out of this ground game with the way it's designed and how well that off. offensive line is playing. Jason Kelsey, when healthy, is a really good center. He's been great.

Like the Jason Peters is still doing stuff. Lane Johnson is in the concussion protocol, but he's been very good as a right tackle. I mean, they just have a really nice group up there, and they're taking advantage of it. And I was impressed with Wentz on Sunday. That's the game, that best game I've seen him play. And the Cardinals may be on a slide. And when it starts to unravel, it starts to unravel. But I just think that if he can keep progressing and everything else they have on that

roster, they can be dangerous. Remember how I said that Earl Thomas should have won the MVP when we saw how the Seahawks played without him? Yes. I feel like we're getting there and Thursday will be a big, big test. I like Carson Wentz. Lane Johnson might deserve, like, contention for MVP. Because, I mean, his splits, Carson Wentz is a different guy and has played like a different guy when Lane Johnson's down on the field. I don't know what that is.

I don't know if that's a comfort thing. I don't know. That's just obviously the most simple answer, which is he has less time to throw. But I'm really intrigued to see if Johnson misses Thursday night's game, what Wentz looks like. I think the Eagles can make the playoffs. I think that I've been on record for the last couple months saying I don't think the NFC East is going to be that good of a division. So if they get out to seven and two, if they get out to eight and three, something like that, they're going to make the playoffs because no one is going to come up and win 12 games. That's not going to happen. So it's either the Eagles or it's going to be no one. And so I think that they are in prime to just make the playoffs.

I like that team. I think that, you know, I still get, I made a joke last week about how shorting Doug Peterson is the company line just because the ringer made so much news with Lombardi coming at Peterson in the preseason. I still am slightly on team Lombardi in that regard. I don't think Doug Peterson is a great NFL coach. But look, they got talent, man. I like Howie Roseman.

They got roster talent. they put a really nice team together. I picked them to win the division before the season. And again, I think that they've done it in a slightly different way than I anticipated. But it's still, when you have that many impressive players on your team, it's going to work out well if they stay healthy enough. I didn't pick anyone to win the NFC East. I skipped that.

Very quickly, how worried are you about the Cowboys and how much do you believe in the Panthers? How real is this on either side of that? Okay, so the Panthers are my bounce back team all year. I really believed in them. How much do I believe in them? They're not going to make the conference championship game, but I do believe that they can edge out the Falcons for the conference. Excuse me, the Falcons for the division.

That can happen. I just don't. I worry about that offense a little bit. I worry about Cam Newton a little bit, but I still think they have the defense, they have the talent. They're utilizing McCaffrey in a way that is the way he should be used, which is a decoy on some routes,

let him make plays in space. I love McCaffrey. I've loved him all year. I think that he will at the end of the year be in the conversation. for offensive rookie of the year. I think that, I mean, probably Deshaun Watson is going to run away with that puppy, but I do think he'll at least be in the top three in voting. And so I believe in them to be a 11, 12-1 team.

Absolutely. What about you? I think the way Cam has played the last couple of weeks has been impressive. And we saw it against New England, and it was kind of a, well, it's the Patriots defense, how real is this? And to go in and do it against a Detroit team that's been pretty solid, he played really well. Again, just making throws he wasn't making the first couple weeks of the season.

Kid won. There was really a couple guys in his face, Paco was collapsing and he did that thing where he kind of like gets on his tiptoes and his release point is higher than pretty much anybody's. And he put it outside the boundary in like a two foot window. It's like those are the types of throws we expect to see from him and to see him making them. That's what they need to be because they're not running the ball effectively. That's the problem is when they were really good on offense,

they were running the ball really well. That's who they were. They're not doing that right now. So they are putting so much on him. And if they can get something out of Ed Dixon, that's huge. Because that offense needs the tight end in the middle of the field. That's where Cam's really dominant. And to have him kind of tear up the lions, that's a nice presence for them.

And he was good against New England as well. So they can get down the field receptions to a tight end, which they've always needed with Olson. That's going to be huge. With Dallas, I feel like the seams we expected to see before the season are they're there. They're there. They're secondary and they're game. defense is not very good. And they're going to give up points.

And if the offense is a smidge less productive than it was last season, it's not enough to make up for it. I know Dak was really good on Sunday and the pick six, not his fault whatsoever. But he hasn't been just running over people the entire season. And the running game hasn't quite been there. I feel like they're the type of team we anticipated. And with that schedule, it's going to be tough. So a brief history of our thoughts in the Cowboys, we were both thinking they were,

certainly not going to be last year's team heading into this year. There were too many questions. I really wish I'd pick them not make the playoffs. I was so close. I believe I said I'm picking the Cowboys to make the playoffs, but I don't feel good about it, which is as hegy and bad and dumb and hacky as you can possibly get. That's me. And so we overreacted to the Giants win because we didn't know the Giants were one of the worst teams in the NFL,

if not the worst team in the NFL. And so I briefly put them back in the land of the contenders. and I think we're seeing what we're seeing what we thought and certainly what I thought was going to happen over the summer, which was they were going to be a 9, 10 win team and that the entire division was going to be in that bracket. And, you know, week 17, there'd be a, you know, a couple of plays that swung the division. That's how I felt.

I think the Eagles getting off such a hot start changes the paradigm a little bit, but not by much. I still think it's going to come down to late December, you know, a couple of plays here and there. But I mean, the Cowboys basically just have to get better. I don't know. I mean, it goes back to that. I don't believe that October means anything until like October 15th.

I know that's weird to say in the NFL, but that's my new theory. And I've been talking about it for weeks. The early part of the season is not real with the CBA rules. And I think they'll get better, but I don't think they'll get that much better. All right. Let's transition to Fort Down. What's the last thing you want to mention before we keep going here? I think it has to be.

We have to touch on this briefly. It has to be the protest stuff. Jerry Jones came out and basically said players have to stand for the flag. Mike Pence, from a football viewing standpoint, Robert, you can't blame him for bailing on Colts Niners. I can blame him for everything else. Everything else, a little bit tricky.

No, obviously he pulled this stunt. It was ridiculous. And it's going to keep the protest up going. Donald Trump, I guess, told, this via Chris Mortensen, told Jerry Jones that there was a game operation. manual that required players to stand for the anthem. This is all very, very murky.

A lot of it's been debunked and all that. But it's going to what the last weekend ensured, and also marry that with the report I mentioned earlier about Antonio Brown wanting to kneel and not being allowed to because they weren't going to put them, they didn't put the team on the field in Pittsburgh. And so all of those things ensured that this story is not going to die down soon. There's going to be more activism.

Players are going to speak out more. now that there's an owner and this didn't even not even Jerry Richardson came out that weekend that particular weekend and said you guys have to stand for the anthem he actually released one of those unity statements

now that there's an owner who's actively saying you can't kneel I think it's going to get I think there's going to be some fireworks I'm intrigued just as an observer to see where it goes from here just the unbelievable hypocrisy involved with all of this is staggering

I mean Jerry Jones and the willingness to take on players that have done horrific things. They're actual embarrassments to the Cowboys, the league. They're actual distractions. And then to say, nobody's going to kneel on my team. Just it's unbelievable. I mean, it's not unbelievable, I guess.

It's just awful. And then the Penn stuff is just, everything about it. I mean, the amount of energy and focus that's gone into this when you consider how much real stuff is going on. Can you imagine that Donald Trump is sitting there pouring over the game operations manual in the NFL when I guarantee you he hasn't read a single piece a healthcare legislation that's come across his desk.

I'm really glad this is how we're spending our time. The entire thing is absolutely ridiculous. Again, it's not surprising it's not going away, but everything about it is it's exacerbating. It had a chance to go away because it was settling into the same lull it did

in 2016, which is you have the initial media attention when Kaepernick starts to kneel and then Eric Reid and then a couple of other guys in Miami and then people to sort of get used. to it and then just a thing.

And then that was sort of what was happening now. And then Pence does this. Jerry Jones does this. I mean, I think the Jerry Jones thing is a really big deal.

It is. The PA now is going to have to get involved. You know, does a cowboy star think about doing it just to, you know, I mean, these guys are individuals, man. These guys are human beings.

Shocking. And there are a lot of people listening right now who, if their employer said they couldn't do something that they politically felt was right, they would just do it just to piss them off. That is my general thought.

And that's, I'm intrigued to see what happens in that regard. Eric Creed, who's been, you know, one of the voices, main voices with all of this going to be back the last season.

I think that what he said after the game was perfect and well done. He just said that this is what systemic oppression looks like. A man with power, you know, just is involved in a huge overture, trying to marginalize the actions of people with life. power. And it was perfect. I mean, and the fact that Eric Reed seems smarter than the people we have in office is, again, not shocking, but seeing it and hearing it is pretty jarring every single time. Joe Lockhart, the spokesman for the NFL said that the NFL owners are meeting next week and they're going to have the protest as a major agenda item that he said, quote, everyone is frustrated by this. And the players, what they do the next couple weeks will be. just fascinating to watch. I just don't even want to speculate.

It's hard to. It's reckless to speculate. But the whole, you know, the whole world is watching what they do. And, and I think that there's a lot of individuals who will take a stand. All right. Let's move on because we probably have to. It is time for your craziest headline of the week, which is an overreaction or maybe not from everything that happened this weekend. So which one do you think is going to stand out to you in the next couple days? I was intrigued by this. Sunday it comes out that Ben McAdoe is just, is just safe.

He's safe, folks. Like, no worries here, guys. Now, Tom Coughlin was perpetually safe, obviously, until he wasn't. But for a couple years there, we talked to this on the Friday show. He kept getting, you know, one year, one year pardons, essentially, even though he probably should have been fired two years before he was. The difference being, especially after 07, that Tom Coughlin had delivered a championship to the Giants, Ben McAdoe has delivered what exactly?

Nothing. And that's the whole thing that drives me crazy about this, is that this is an extension of Tom Coughlin. They hired the guy who was Tom Coughlin's offensive coordinator. This isn't some drastic departure from the last regime that we saw there. Do you know the defensive coordinator is for the Giants? It's Steve Spagnolo. everybody is still there. Everything about this makes no sense.

They should have just made Tom Coughlin executive vice president. Yeah, might as well. Just keep this thing rolling. I don't even know if... I don't know if Tom Coughlin is a good GM, but he's doing something. I don't know what the hell is going on there,

but I'm in. Anyway, I... Leaving aside, really not that they should have kept Coughlin in the building. Ben McAdoo being safe is ridiculous. They are at this point the worst team in the league. I guess the Browns are worst. worse than them, right? It's time to tear it down, man. I mean, you might as well go all in 16. That was my thing on Friday. Tank it, baby. Tank it. Try to trade. The Daniel Jeremiah had the

idea to try to trade Eli to Jacksonville. I don't necessarily like that. I think you stick with what works. I think Borto's throwing four times a game is great. I just, yeah, blow it up. Fire Ben McAdoo. This idea that Ben McAdoo was safe a quarter into the season. He's already thrown Eli Manning under the bus. He clearly has no idea how to run. an NFL offense, even though he was given the best receiver, a top three receiver at the very least in O'Dow Becker for the first four game

for what? I know he was a little bit hurt. He's still O'Do Becum, and he's now gone. And now Brandon Marshall is gone. So everything that we thought was going to make this offense different than it was a year ago, no longer applies. Eli still isn't playing well. Ben McAdoo is still the coach, and the offensive line is still terrible. And they went out and they spent a lot of money last year.

They got roster talent. They got roster talent. They're not doing anything. thing with it. Yeah, it's a disaster. And I don't see it getting any better anytime soon. All right. Let's stick with Tom Coughlin for a second here. I want to get to my ringer of the week, which we talked about the Jags running game and kind of the big picture of the defense. I want to get in one specific guy who's been good for several years and was fantastic on something. That's Telvin Smith, who is there less talked about linebacker, I guess, just because of Miles Jack. But the reason I want to get into Smith, who had was really good.

against the run on Sunday. And he's a guy that is very good in coverage often because he's an undersized linebacker. But darting into the backfield, making some big plays everywhere, return that pick six for a touchdown. The reason I think he's important and speaks to the Jags plan and success so far on defense in the larger picture is this. You can go out and spend all you want in free agency. You can load up on these big money guys.

And they have. They paid Clay's Campbell a ton. They played Mill Jackson a ton. Barry Church, Tashon Gibson, both free agency. agents. AJ Boy is another example. But you need to hit on the guys you draft in order to become a good team. It doesn't matter how much money you spend.

Eventually, the high picks you have need to turn into real NFL players. Telvis Smith wasn't a high pick. We've used a fifth round pick. So that, Miles Jack is playing so much better this year. Ramsey, no one expected him to miss, but he's been even better than I think a lot of people imagined. Yeah. The fact that Yonik and Gokwe is a third round pick, and he's affecting games the way that

is. That's how you get really good in a hurry is when you have a ton of money to spend and you start hitting on your draft picks. And the fact that there's that mix there is the reason that they've been able to take over games against the past so far because they picked the right free agents, but they also hit on some of their guys. And you need that. You need to strike that balance. And teams like the Browns have not. They spent a ton of money in free agency this year, but none of the homegrown guys have started to develop quite yet. And that's why, if you want to get excited about Jacksonville, you should.

Because it's that mix that you're going to need for sustainable success on one side of the ball. And it feels like they've gotten there. I mean, yeah. I'm not ready to say they're going to make the playoffs, but what I'm saying is they've got, I mean, they've got the pieces. They've got the pieces and they don't need to improve on anything.

It's not like they've built a team where, I mean, you don't. need improved play from Bortals. You don't even need Bortals. Rino Hanlon came on the podcast in the preseason and he made, it was a joking question. He said, should the Jets

just play the season without a quarterback? Just put another player on the field. And the Jets were not the team for that. The Jigors are kind of doing that, man. And I love it. Another guy I should have mentioned, Aaron Colvin, who is excellent on Sunday.

And that's what I'm kind of, he's their nickel corner. They drafted him in the fourth round in 2014. He tore his ACL, I believe in the senior bowl week. And he was supposed to be a higher pick, but obviously that knocks him down. They got him. He's come along slowly, but he's a really nice piece of that defense now. And when you look at, they're top 11 guys. And even 12, if you want to switch out, plus Lesney for Colvin when you go into base, that's maybe the most complete defense in the league right now based on talent. I understand that bills are playing extremely well, everything else. But I would, I think it's harder to find a better group of 11 players right now than Jacksonville has. And I don't know. We've always

been trying to make this happen for the last couple years. I think now it's, we should allow it to happen. We should let ourselves be excited. I wasn't, I wasn't thinking it was going to happen. Well, yeah, that's fine. I understand that. You're a little, a little slower on that than I usually am. I probably went to more Jaguars games growing up than any other team. That is not the case for me. I can tell you that right now. I'm trying to think, I think that, I believe that to be the case. I wasn't a Jaguars fan. I just went to Jaguars games because they were local. I once saw Terrell Owen score a 99-yard touchdown with the Bills.

Wow. That is a dark game. I believe it was two-older-Lowens and I believe it was two interim coaches. Wow. If I'm not mistaken. High-level action there. Believe Perry Fuel was involved. All right.

It's now time to welcome in our good friend Danny Kelly. Danny, the Sunday nighter turned into a very exciting shootout between two teams that we probably didn't think we'd have dynamic offenses coming into the year. You know, the Texans, they lose, they lose Jay J.J. Watt and Whitney Merciless, which is tough. But it's hard not to be excited about Deshawn Watson at this point. Danny, what about Watson and what about the way they've used him has stuck out to you so far?

Well, the thing that's actually kind of been surprising is how aggressive they've been with him in terms of the passing game. I think, you know, he's pushing the ball downfield quite a bit. He's got, he's got his, he's got Will Fuller in there now. He's just a really good field stretching threat for him. And we talked about him last year a little bit early on. He did well. I'm talking about Fuller now.

He did well early on. But I mean, with Brock Osweiler, you know, you just don't have that downfield element. And so it's really cool to see Watson do that this year so far. My question is, how bad are the Watt and merciless injuries for this, for this Texan's defense? Because if it's a significant drop off, and I think it might be, I mean, we could be in store for quite a few shootouts with the way that Watson's playing. the way that, you know, he's kind of like, I feel like he's perfect for those situations. The gamer label is totally like, you know, a little bit hard to measure and all that. But he definitely is kind of that guy that like thrives the most when it's a shootout.

And so, I mean, it's probably not good for Houston, but like for NFL fans in general, we could see some great shootouts this year. I think it's a big deal. And you saw that in the second half of that game. I mean, soon as they didn't have either of those guys, they couldn't get much pressure. I mean, it's just clowny. And the only reason they were able to survive without last year is because Mercils was playing the best football of his career.

Right, exactly. You need two pass rushers in order to feel the decent pass rush, and they don't have it anymore. So that's going to be, I mean, we're going to see it. We're going to see a lot of games because I think they're going to give up a lot. So, yeah, I'm excited. I mean, the guy clearly has something. The touchdown he threw to four where he switched hands with the ball and not have it stripped and then jumped to the side and just chucked a 50 hard toss down.

I mean, he is very, very exciting. And I think that they've used him in the right way. A ton of play action. He's very good off play action. So I'm looking forward to it. I mean, again, it's not the Texan team I thought we'd be watching. They probably don't make the playoffs at this point as a result. But there's an entertainment value that was not anticipated.

Somebody's making the playoffs from that division. Yeah, I guess so. I think it might be the Jacksonville Jaguars. Oh, gosh. All right, Danny, as long as we're talking about teams that we did not expect to be exciting, The Chiefs are the best team in the league. Right. And I wrote about this a little bit yesterday,

just kind of the hierarchy of quarterbacks in the NFL and how uncertain it is right now. How many quarterbacks would you rather have than Alex Smith at this exact moment? I know. I know that was the question I was going to ask you guys because, I mean, right now, I mean, I think you can definitely say Rogers, Brady, and Breeze

are the top three. Yes. But after that, it's like a plateau of a bunch of guys. and I think Smith might be honestly one of the top ones there. Look at the stats. First in completion percentage, 76.6%. First in yards per attempt, 8.8% or 8.8 yards per attempt. First and pass rating, 125.8 rating, guys.

We're five games in. That's pretty good. He's a 77% completion percentage. It's absolutely ridiculous. I need to say something. Scott Katzmar, the football outsider's guy, has been talking about this, and I kind of buy into it. Alex Smith has not changed all that much.

much, what's changed is supporting cast and the fact that he's hit some deep passes in prime time. That's the crux of it. If you look at the numbers, you know, football outsiders developed the Alex. Yes. The Alex tool. And coming into Sunday, he was still last in Alex, which is what he's supposed to be. And so I think that, you know, the completion percentage is important. He's throwing a lot of catchable balls.

But the narrative, and I bought into it a little bit too, but the narrative that Alex Smith is a new guy is a little bit overblown. But I think he is being the best Alex Smith he can be. And that's to me the most important thing. The differences between acceptable quarterback play and dominant quarterback play is so much smaller than we think. Look at Matt Ryan last year. Matt Ryan has always been a pretty good quarterback.

Last year he was the MVP of the league and he shattered records because they dropped him into a very good situation. Yeah. Similar things happening with Alex Smith right now. I feel like Matt Ryan was better over the course of his career than Alex Smith has been. But the little tiny tweaks that need to happen for you to have a truly dominant offense, they're small. And his willingness to push the ball down field just a little bit more often to open things up underneath, to have better players and a more kind of complete supporting cast with hunting everything else.

I think it's just so much smaller. And the schematic differences are stark that this is how it happens. I don't know if Alex Smith is the fourth best quarterback in the league. I don't think he is. But I feel like right now, his play is right there with anybody else, aside from the guys you mentioned, Danny. Yeah. So, yeah, and Kevin, to your point, like, I agree. Like, he hasn't actually changed all that much.

There's some interesting contrasting stats to all this. So for right now, according to PFF, he's second in the NFL in total deep yards. So that's passes of 20 plus yards downfield. We have 440 yards, three touchdowns, no picks, 142 rating on those passes. But at the end of the day, he's also. got a 7.6 yard a dot, so average depth of target is 7.6 yards, which is 26th in the league. His percentage yards in the air, so in other words, how many of his passing yards actually go through the air is 49.5%, which is 2050 in the NFL. So he's still got a very, you know, heavy sort of, he depends on yak a lot, like yards after catch.

And so that hasn't changed. But I just think he's been so much more efficient when they've asked him to push ball don't feel. I think he's actually been more aggressive too, just like you can see it in his demeanor. So I do think he, it's hard to say he's completely different, but I think like Mays was alluding to, he's just in the perfect situation where he's really thriving. And I think he actually has been a lot more aggressive than we've seen in the past. I've always compared deep shots in the NFL to three-point shooting in the NBA. It's not about necessarily how often you make it, but if you're willing to take them and people have to account for you out there, it opens up the rest of your offense.

And the fact that every once in a while he's willing to take those shots, that allows everything to come together in a way that it couldn't before. Yeah, absolutely. All right, Danny. That's all we got for you, buddy. You'll be back on Friday to go over our fantasy football stuff we talk about every week. Your dark night will be back. You couldn't get through it, man.

Which we always appreciate you. Are you in the Batcave right now coming up with the Dark Night for the week? I actually am in my basement right now. I'm a blogger in my basement in the Batcave. Your own basement? Yeah. You have a basement, Danny? Technically, it's daylight basement, I think.

Yeah, that's where the internet is. What kind of state to you're raising? Jesus. A daylight basement. Buddy, I'm a renter. Don't worry. All right, Danny. Thanks a lot, buddy.

We'll talk to you on Friday. All right, talk to you guys. All right, guys, coming up, we're going to take some questions from Twitter, plus give you our lasting impressions from week five. But first, we're going to take a short break. Kevin, going to games is awesome. But sometimes buying the tickets can be a huge pain. Not if you use Seatkeek, Robert.

They've got a seamless mobile experience, so it's pretty much the easiest thing of all time. It's true. You can buy and sell tickets with just two taps. There's really no excuse to sit at home and not go to these games anymore, especially if you consider that Seatkeek is giving our listeners a $20 rebate off your first purchase. $20 back so you can buy one beer at a game for free. So please go to Seekek, download the app, go to the settings tab, and click add a promo code and a ringer NFL and you can get that free beer or hopefully too on us.

You're welcome, guys. Think about us when you're drinking it. All right, Kevin, we haven't done this on a little while, but since we didn't have a guest outside of Danny today, we wanted to take some questions from Twitter. And the ones we got were so good in the preseason that we felt like it was time to fire this backup. And it's also really refreshing to get a Twitter question. It's not, why do you hate the Eagles? I love that. I really enjoy it. So let's start with a question from at Bill Simmons on Twitter. I don't know who he is. Who's that?

I'm not sure. He asked me, would I rather start a franchise with Mitch Trubisky or Lori Marketing, who, for those of you who don't know anything about the NBA, is the guy the Bulls traded, well, not. He's pretty much the centerpiece of the Jimmy Butler trade, who's like a top 12 player in the NBA, and now we have a Finnish guy that's 20 and may not be good, and that's really the entire returns. So I'm going to picture Trubisky just because I feel like I actually have more faith in

Trubisky. I mean, after last night again, we talked about it. he had some flashes. I feel like it's going to get there when he has a little bit more help. I'm going to wait a little bit on Lori Market and watching him dominate Eurobasket wasn't quite enough for me.

He was one of nine in his preseason debut. I missed Eurobasket. I know I saw some of the magic guys in it, but I didn't watch too closely. I feel like we're in the same MBA boat for the first time in a while, buddy. Just teams that there's really no hope.

And my team, it's the best timing ever. The year they decided they wanted to take, tank is the year the NBA trade it or change the draft rules which is just great. It's awesome timing. I do not know. I do not remember it's been since 2010 what it means to have hope in basketball.

It's quite bad. The magic's first preseason game they went five of 32 from three point. It's almost impossible to do. You can punt the ball toward the basket. I'm going to write this fire.com, but Jason Concepcion got me a copy of NBA 2K and I've every once in a while been just playing with the current magic roster.

And the way you win in video, I'm not a gamer or anything. I'm not that good, but I'm at least competent. And the way you win in video games is you just shoot threes and dunk. And the magic can't do any of those things. And so I'm losing all these games like 80 to 30. That's actually the way you win in the NBA. So it's true. And it used to not be the case in the real NBA, but now it is. All life becomes video games eventually. All right. So let's get to our first one. At J.Diva on Twitter asked just a fantastic question. Earl Thomas has no career sacks, which I did not know until this came up,

but I have confirmed it. Is Earl Thomas the best NFL player ever to have no career sacks? Yes. He is. Dion Sanders had one sack. So that's, if Dion had not, if Dion had no sacks,

then he would be the answer to this question. But so I looked it up on pro football reference and you can search by specific data points. And so I looked up every guy who has no sack ever since 1982 and search and sort of, them by their AV, which is kind of pro football references attempt to quantify the entire career of individual players. And there are a few players ahead of him on the list, but AV is also a cumulative stat. So these are guys that have been in the league for a decade. So guys like Avante,

or Asante Samuel, Chris McAllister, Gilbert, but no one has been a truly great player in the way that Earl Thomas has. If Earl Thomas's career ended today, you would say he had a better career than any of those guys. Gilbird, huh? Yeah, Gilberd's right there. Sixth on this list. Sneaky value there for Gilbert. Gilbert was only for a decade. I know. I know Gilbert.

Oh, I know Gil Bird. Yeah, Earl Thomas is better in all those players. It's absolutely Earl Thomas. Yeah. I mean, you'd never think about it before hearing that question, but after hearing it,

it's absolutely the answer. I mean, there's really nothing else to say about it. Yeah, that's it. Great question, though. Yeah, loved it. Okay. Ryan Ray Reid asks, and this is something you've talked about a lot, Kevin.

did Brady Manning and Breeze set unrealistic expectations for quarterbacks over 35? How much time do we have? Do we have three hours? So let's do this clip notes version of this. If I started this, it would end up like the Ken Burns Vietnam documentary. Which is so good, by the way. 18 hours and we would have Trent Resner scoring it. Trent Resner scores my life, so it wouldn't be that much different.

Yeah, they did. I mean, it was just it was the last generation we'll ever see like this just because the NFL screwed up their, it was the, This sweet spot, which is there were a lot of people playing quarterback because that was a very glamorous position in a time where football was thought of differently. And all these guys were born in the mid-70s. And they got the development they needed from high school and college and pros. They played the same system the entire time. I mean, it's now, first of all, we talk about the talent pipeline.

People are just going to play football less. That's already happening. So you're going to have less of a talent pool for great quarterbacks to come out of. It was just, I mean, you know, then you have the spread offense, which I think is good in a lot of ways because the guys are passing more, but it is hindering development a little bit. And the NFL has no idea how to deal with spread offense guys. So it was, it is a golden generation. There's a million reasons for it. And we will never see anything like it ever again.

So the idea that this generation of quarterbacks, and I love a lot of, of them. I love Deshaun Watson. I think Carson Wentz will, you know, be a perennial, not, I don't know if it'll be a perennial pro bowler, but he'll be a perennial decent quarterback, right? And I just think that the idea they'll have a stranglehold on the conference championship games like this generation does is, is misguided. And I feel like some of the exterior elements, the ancillary elements are conditions that people don't really consider all the time. Manning, I feel like, is just an exception. I think he's the best regular. season quarterback of all time, and you could drop him in anywhere, he'd be fine. But you look at Brady

and Breeze, we just don't have that level of continuity in the NFL anymore. The idea that you can spend 10 years with the same head coach in New Orleans and Belichick is the greatest coach ever, and it's been 15 years of him and Brady in New England, we're just not going to see that often enough to produce players that are able to consistently be great like that. And I think that every single element of this is going to be hard to replicate. And I really do think that they did make it unrealistic. It's going to be hard to meet that bar again. it will be impossible. So let's get into kind of the next generation of quarterbacks here.

John Leibowitz asks, choose one guy for the next 10 years. He makes a Tripisky joke in here, which I don't fucking appreciate John Liebuwitz. But the other three, Wence, Gough, Watson. Next decade, who would you take? Oh, I kind of want to take Wence

just to get the Eagles fans off my back. I don't know why they... I got people in my mentions who like, keep doubting him. I'm like, what are you talking about? Eagles fans get so defensive about... It's incredible. I think they're talking about me because I said it wasn't sure if he's good.

Still not sure if he's good. I think he's fine. He looks great on Sunday. I don't want to be inside baseball here, but this happens a lot where people confuse all of us with each other. Yeah, it's so true. All the same person. Even he can throw Lombardi in there too. People are just, it's just like, we're a voice that's coming from the ringer.com.

So I get mentions all the time. They're like, I forget. I got one the other day that was just famously not my take. And, you know, it happens. It's all part of the biz. I'm going to say right now Deshawn Watson. He's number one for me to be my guess.

I think that they've both, they've all looked good this season. Golf looked pretty bad on Sunday. Not horrendous, but against Seattle on the road, you can see that happening. I'm going to take Watson too just because I just feel like he's the most dynamic.

I feel like he can affect the game outside of the circumstances more than the other two can. I like the trajectory of the other two a lot. I feel like, it's a promising situation in both LA and Philly with those guys in charge. But right now it's hard to not to pick Watson. I understand that recency bias plays into that. And we're probably blinded by how goodies looked early.

But it's Watson to me, even if it's close. 100% agreed. All right, buddy. Thank you to everyone who submitted your questions. Hopefully we can do that a little bit more often. We're going to get to our final segment here. That's our lasting impressions from week five. Kevin, what is going to stick with you from this weekend?

I think that it's going to be the political situation. Because I think if anyone thought that this was going to be a one-time thing three weeks ago when Donald Trump came after the NFL, it's clear that he's going to treat the NFL like he treats. And if you look at any of the White House reporting, he treats CNN in a very specific way. He thinks that there's a way for him to craft a good versus bad narrative with CNN. And I can sort of see him right now doing the same thing with the NFL. Oh, you know, Josh Dossi from Politico reported that the sense around the White House. was that Pence made a tactical error telling Trump he was going to the game beforehand. And Trump realized it was an opportunity to make a stand and to get some attention to the fact that he's specifically at war with the NFL.

And I think, as I've said, the next couple weeks are going to be interesting to watch. But I think that the owner's meeting next week, where they set an agenda, where they look at maybe crafting a new policy, is going to be, one of the most fascinating things we've seen in recent times. Joe Lockhart, the NFL spokesperson said on Tuesday morning that that doesn't have to be collectively bargained. They don't really have to have the player input. And I think the NFL needs to be very, very careful because I think that we're in a very important part of our political identity as a country.

And I think that if we get into a situation where football tries to become apolitical that will cause more problems than it solves. Nothing can be apolitical at the moment. And if the NFL tries to legislate politics out of the 2017 NFL season, it will come back harder than they could ever imagine. And so I think that it's, I think the owners have to include player voices, even if it doesn't have to be collectively bargained. They have to understand that players are going to dictate the policy year

because they're the ones in the field. They're the ones who are doing it. They're the ones who want to take a stand. The fact that I'm still fascinated with this idea that Antonio Brown wasn't allowed to go out in the field and take a knee, that's going to happen all the time. And maybe that's one of the huge reasons the Steelers didn't have, aren't having a great season right now,

is the locker room discord stemming from that. There's a hundred reasons for it. But I'm really intrigued to see what the owners come up with at the owners' meetings because it will, quite frankly, change the way we look at the NFL, no matter what they do. It's remarkable that if I had told you in 2011, that there would be political elements to the new collective bargaining agreement, you would have thought there would be no chance of that.

Now, six years later, it's pivoted so hard that there's no chance it can't be a part of a collective bargaining agreement. The difference is completely on polar opposite sides. And to see how fast that's happened is, it's amazing. I mean, it can give you whiplash. Yes. All right, what's yours? I want to talk about Rogers a little bit and kind of what we were mentioning.

before. And I think that this plays into a little bit of what I wrote yesterday, just the idea that the second tier of quarterbacks and the uncertainty surrounding it, I think it's made the chasm between the teams that are really good and the teams that aren't quite championship worthy, even bigger than it has been in recent years. Because if you're looking at those teams in the NFC, trying to figure out who would you pick in the end, it's going to be the one with Aaron Rogers because there are so many weak points to these rosters. There are so many shortcomings just in every area of who these teams want to be, that it's almost like,

I know it's never going to be like basketball, but picking the best player feels so safe. And I just don't think that there are, like Atlanta last year in the NFC, there was this complete offense, they were very dominant. Maybe Kansas City is that this year. But I still feel like in the NFC especially,

I'm going to go with the guy who gives them the best chance to win every single time out, and that's what Rogers is. And conversely, in the AFC, it just feels like Brady might be that as well. So I feel like with all the kind of shifting elements, those other at that position all the way around the league, that the guys at the top have the most impact now than they have in recent years.

And it feels like that shouldn't be the case because of how much quarterback turnover there's been. But watching those games this weekend and just feeling the confidence in Rogers coming down and winning that game for Green Bay, that matters. That lingers. And I think that that's going to be here for a while. and having to deal with him we can week out in that division is my worst nightmare. And I feel like the rest of the league is finally starting to understand how bad that is. Totally agree.

Even though we talked about the idea that you can be a quarterbackless team in 2017, the shortest and easiest way to win a Super Bowl is to have a very good quarterback. And that's always been true, but it just feels like the gap between the teams with the really, really good ones and the rest of the league is bigger than I can remember it being. Hell yeah. All right, buddy. That's all we got for today. Five weeks in the book,

we will be back on Friday to get you ready for week six. As always, thank you for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network. Thanks, guys.