The Ringer NFL Show - The Patriots Are Back, the Chargers Are Done, and More Week 4 Story Lines

Episode Date: October 6, 2026

Tom, Sheil, and Billy get together to share their instant reactions to Saints-Falcons on ‘Monday Night Football’ before diving into the Patriots win over the Bills, Lamar Jackson's injury, and the Chargers seemingly in freefall. Sheil then offers the guys some storylines that developed over the weekend that he feels need to be ‘Under Further Review’. They end the pod by discussing the Vikings improbable 4-0 start and a pair of officials who were suspended for unprofessional conduct towards some NFL players.(00:00) Intro(1:46) Falcons defeat Saints on  ‘MNF’(8:40) Drake Maye and Patriots rebound against the Bills(15:25) Lamar Jackson injury update(20:33) The Chargers are getting worse(30:34) Under Further Review segment(1:12:49) The Minnesota Vikings are 4-0(1:17:34) The NFL suspends officials for unprofessional conduct Check out Tom Pelissero's newsletter 'The Sweep' on Substack! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines.Host: Tom PelisseroGuests: Billy Gil and Sheil KapadiaProducer: Chris SuttonVideo Editor: Curtis SchultzEngineer: Oscar De La CruzProduction Supervision: Conor Nevins and Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, everybody? It is the Ringer NFL show. Tom Pellicero, Shio Coppottia, Billy Gill, joining momentarily. Are the Falcons the best team in the NFL? If you had no frame of reference and all you did was watch two straight national TV performances, you might think this looks like a really tough team. What do we make of the Saints? What we make of that division? After Bryce Young lit it up as well. We'll talk about all. that on this show. We'll also talk about some of the big moments from Sunday. Shield's got his after further review or under further review. Upon further review, it's something like that. It's got a segment, some of the big topics that we really should be talking about. We got quarterback injuries. We got quarterback bouncebacks. Lots more starts after this. This is the Ringer NFL show presented by Fandual. Make every NFL week more rewarding with Fandual Rewards Club. like you normally would, and earn points on eligible, settled bets, win or lose. Keep collecting points, level up, and unlock bigger rewards.

So keep an eye on your rewards club progress and see what you can unlock. This is your most rewarding season ever with Fanduil. 21 plus select states, 18 plus DC or Wyoming. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-Gampler. Call 1-888-78-9-77-7-7 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. So at the time we all decided on the group text that it was probably just, we were ready to start the podcast with about six minutes left on the clock. Falcons, 422 yards of offense, five touchdowns in the box score by B. Robinson, either Bijon or Brian.

And if you woke up and had a fantasy game that needed to be sorted out, you might have to do a little further investigation. Let's just put it this way, Sheel. the Falcons of the first two weeks with Cooper Rush, the third stringer quarterback, completely different in every regard since Michael Pettix Jr. got back. And I would say Michael Pettix Jr. has been solid. He's,

tonight's game against the Saints, I think it was about as efficient if we've seen him play. But it just seems like having him there has unlocked everything else. And they look like a real team that you got at least talk about in the playoff conversation. Yeah, different doesn't feel strong enough. I mean, it's a reminder of how quickly things can change. Those first two weeks were two of the worst offensive performances

by any team in games this season. The last two weeks have literally been top 10 performances league-wide for any offense in a game this season. They look unstoppable. I mean, when they don't score, it's almost been a surprise these last two weeks. So I was making jokes about Arch Banning, wanting to play for the Falcons maybe next year to, two weeks ago. And now I sort of think that the Falcons are the favorites in the NFC South.

So yes, things can change quickly. It's only week four. Things will change by week six, week eight, week 10, and so on. But for no team more so than the Falcons in the first month of the season. Yeah, we were joking for weeks how this is a team that could be getting arch and solving their quarterback problem. And it seems like they had their solution the whole time. They've had their quarterback. It's Michael Penix. And he just wasn't, he wasn't well. But now he is, as well, and they'd look like a totally different team. I mean, I think, Geel, you're right, they're probably the favorite

in the division, and it's obviously reactionary after two weeks and after one blowout game. But we also thought that the Saints were a nice little story a couple weeks ago, and they completely blew the Saints out. We watched yesterday where the Panthers had a nice Sunday night football performance. This could be a

team that could make some noise. This could be a fun little team. And now the Falcons a day later, are like, I don't know about this Panthers game. I don't know about you guys. I was looking at the calendar. I was looking at the schedule. They already played once, but I've already gone to week 18 and I've circled that and I said, you know what, this may be a game that gets flexed into

the Sunday night football game if the division is on the line. And I think it's I know it's just week four, right? What game is that? You're saying, you're saying Falcons Panthers? Falcons Panthers. I mean, the NFC North could be on the line like a live on-site pod or something, Tom.

Tom, Billy's thinking. Tom? Live on-site pod? I don't know if we, do we have the budget for that yet? I'm not sure. We're getting there. We'll slowly. Billy's close to Atlanta or where's the Charlotte? I could probably make a little road trip.

You fly to Philadelphia, make some content. We'll put it on the back burner for now, I guess. Yeah. Saints, meanwhile, that was rough. This was the team that I think a lot of people. It was kind of the hip team to be into, right, based on how they finished last season. I mean, I thought Tyler Shuck, who was under total duress

the entire game, I was impressed by how well he moved around. I mean, he easily could have been, I don't know how many times he was sacked in the end, but could have been sacked twice that many. He kept getting himself out of, you know, bad situations. Chris Olavet played well in that game. The Saints defense, though, I know that it's hard, just like we saw with the Packers, when you're trying to tackle Bijan Robinson,

it's easier said than Duns, Sheel. But it just, on a night that it was supposed to be this celebration, and maybe it's just made more on the broadcast than it is in person, but it seemed like the crowd, you know, was amped up. I'm not even sure trombone shorthy at halft. had the night he was expecting based on how subdued that crowd had to be. The defense got absolutely ripped to shreds in this game, which again, Bijon's doing that to people.

But if you're the Saints now and you're one and three, there's some concerns that you're having to address. I would think on that side of the ball. It's their worst game in the season. You're right. It came at a bad time where the crowd's amped up and you're on national TV. This isn't the team they've been through the first three weeks of the season. I mean, they were very competitive against Detroit.

That came down to the last play. They go to Baltimore and win that game. So I'm with you. I still think they have something they can hang their hat on most weeks, which is their passing game and Chuck's going to push the ball downfield and the receivers are going to be good. Maybe they get Jordan Tyson back at some point this season to add kind of a third pass catcher there.

But yeah, I think they're better than they show today. I don't think they're going to be a team that just gets blown out weekend and week out because I think the passing game is going to be good enough. to keep them in a lot of these games. Meanwhile, as we sit here, I just say a tweet. There's 123 left, and apparently Chris Salave just got hurt.

Why is Chris Salave in a game that they're down 28 points on? That's something I don't get. That is like a league-wide thing that I don't get where coaches have this mentality of, you know, because they're preaching all week, we're going to fight to the final whistle, defend every blade of grass. And then I watch some of these games that are blowouts

and sometimes it happens with the team that's winning, you know, Kyle Shanahan for all his greatness. I'm yelling at the TV at times. Christian McCaffrey does not need to be getting a carry in the fourth quarter. And there's always at least one of these every season. Hopefully this one's not serious. But coaches do it anyway. Yeah, I don't really understand that.

It's a league-wide thing. We'll keep an eye on that. Normally I wouldn't just bring up a tweet in the middle of a recorded podcast, but since we're literally talking about how the game was over, I'm struggling to find the explanation for how a guy with his injury history would still be on the field. In other news, Saints just cut it to 22.

I don't know if we should write this one up just yet. He seems okay, took a hit and walking it off, according to Nick Underhill. So crisis averted on that point. There is something to be said for the panic that ensues in September about a variety of different things

and everyone buried the Falcons, obviously out of the gate. People buried the Patriots, buried Drake May, to a degree that seemed I don't know, a little bit presumptuous three games into a season with the AFC champs. And they come out in Buffalo.

I tried in the suite on substack, of course you get subscribed to to tamp down some of that. She'll talk to a lot of people familiar with what's going on. There was not like panic about Drake. You know, it's his shoulder, it's Vrabel. It's like, so it's none of that stuff. Like he's not playing well. He's had a little bit of bad luck, bad decisions. he's pressing.

He's still a couple in that game against Buffalo. But you saw the real Drake May in the second half. The same guy that everybody fell in love with a year ago. That's a Patriots team that's still going to be really well coached. They went in there and made statements. I thought on both sides, the ball shield. And all of a sudden, now, I mean, I think you at least have to have the real conversation of, are the Patriots or the Bills?

Again, they just faced off head to head. But who's the favorite in that division? Yeah, you had written that, you know, it's had nothing to do. do it with the shoulder, like you mentioned. It's bad luck. He's pressing. He's making bad decisions. It felt to me reading that like, all right, it's between the years a little bit. And I thought it was so interesting how they approached this game where early on they had a fourth and three where you can kick the field goal, you know, get on the point. You're get on the board. You're on the road. And they go for it. And he gets it. And in the third quarter, it's a tight game. Again,

they could say, all right, let's go ahead, kick the field goals fourth and three. And they're like, nope, let's go for it and put it in our quarterback's hand. Even the last possession they have, where they're trying to ice the game away. A lot of teams in that situation are thinking just run the ball, make the other team use timeouts, run the clock. And they came out throwing it. And he's, you know, play action, bootleg. And he completes a pass there.

So it felt like there was so much in that game organizationally that they wanted to remind him, we believe in you. Remember the guy you were last year. You're still that guy. Your shoulder's fine. You've had a few bad games here. It's okay.

It's week four. And just watching May in the first three weeks, like just watching him talk to the media and that kind of thing. You're like, his confidence does seem to be a little bit shot for a guy who's had so much success so early in his career. But I think what they did, it worked out. He played well. Like you said, we could always spend this one of, you know, different ways, Billy, because there's like, like he throws an interception. You know, he has a fumble.

He had multiple fumbles in that game. They recover one of them. If Efton Chisholm doesn't make a one-handed grab, are we having the same conversations? Incredible catch. We might be having conversations like that. like, oh, you know, May had a couple turnovers there, Patriots lose another close one, but that's not the reality.

And I think that's big for his confidence and obviously big for their season. It seemed to be a point of emphasis to what you were saying is that they were reminding him all week like, hey, these other quarterbacks, you're at that level with them, you're at the Josh shallow level, you're at the same level of all these other quarterbacks. You said the three fumbles,

he only lost one of them. I mean, that's luck. The interception, completely not his fault. Like, that was one of the flukiest interceptions you've ever seen where he throws the ball. It's not a good throw, but it was a fluke. The Dobbs to pop it up in the air, yeah. Dobbs has to make a miraculous catch, which he kind of does, then hits the ground. The ball bounces out, goes right to a bill, which at the time was also bad luck,

because they looked like they were going to go into the half and they were going to be leading it 14 to 7. And then there's a late touchdown by the bills. And I said, okay, it's going to be tied. Maybe we drive here. We go to the half with the lead. We make it 17, 14 Patriots. And then there's that turnover. They return it like 30 yards, whatever, get it right into fuel range.

then they'd take the lead and it's 1714. I'm like, uh-oh, here we go again with the Patriots. But, I mean, aside from that, he had a pretty good game. It's the best game that he's had. He hadn't had a touchdown since week one. So he was kind of straightened things out. And then on the other side in that game, Josh Allen is now starting to find the turnovers

that he was not finding earlier on in the season, that it's like, oh, Josh kind of makes these boneheaded plays. So much so that there was a play, and I'm sure you guys know the play that I'm talking about, where Josh Allen's, seemingly was going to get sacked in the end zone for a safety and decided instead of taking the sack, he was facing the end zone, just threw it backwards, not looking at all, just heaved it backwards to, I guess, create an incompletion, which could have easily been intercepted,

return, pick six, whatever. It could have gone disastously. It didn't. And the only reason no one is criticizing it is because it's Josh Allen, like, ah, it's Josh Allen. Where if, like, Drake May had tried that play with how he had been playing and they end up losing the game, they would have been crushing Drake and said, what a bonehead. If James Winston would have done, it's like, oh, classic James, like, what is his boneheaded play where Josh just gets the benefit of the doubt now? And that's where we're trying to get Drake made to, I think, is where he can just do these things. It's like, ah, he'll be fine.

It's just Drake being Drake. Well, Josh, yeah. Go ahead, Tom. No, I was just going to say, Josh has sort of earned that right over nine years in the league. He's a reckless player. Like, it works out. And he then sets the record for franchise. for touchdowns and rushing and all of this and that.

It's like, oh, what a tough guy. But it's like, these are dumb plays that you shouldn't be making, Josh. You kind of need to clean up at some point. I've never seen a ball, you know, dirted, so to speak, in that manner before. Because he throws a full-on pass. The reason it doesn't get called, I think, for intentional grounding is because he is outside the pocket. And he somehow got the ball back to the line of scrimmage, backhanded underhand.

I mean, I'm not going to, you know, sit here and credit him too much. an incompletion, but like he does seem to have shield, like this six cents of here's why I get away with it, what I can't. But when the turnovers are coming for Josh, sometimes they come in bunches. He had that last week with, what, five turnovers as a team against the Chargers. And then

again, the Patriots, you know, listen, they stepped up on both sides of the ball in that game. You know, it's like one of those things. You try to make a change in your life, Billy. You know, and, you know, for me, it's like, all right, don't be just rummaging the cabinet with the kids' snacks at 1130 when you're waiting to

record a podcast and go in there and grab the cookies. That's not going to be like good for you. And, you know, for like maybe four weeks, you do it well. And then the next week, you're in there and you're eating. That's Josh Allen. He still got, you know, his thing is he's playing every snap like it's fourth down and the Super Bowl's on the line. It doesn't matter what week it is. It doesn't matter what the score is. It doesn't matter who the opponent is. And so he can't totally turn that off. Now, he's turned off a lot of that, I think. But you still, yeah, you'll get one or two of those every game every couple games, but to Tom's point, he more than makes up for it most of the time. Now, to your point, if that's a playoff game, like last year, he did kind of do that in the

playoffs before halftime, and it cost him. So I don't think your point is, you know, without a, is totally invalid there. But yeah, you will see those from time to time. But I mean, he's Josh. So, like, it's kind of like, you take the good with the bat, right? He's going to do it. He's hungry. You want some cookies. Let him eat some cookies. There you go. He's still healthy, which that alone puts you above. some of the other teams that you have right now. We saw it a lot in the NFC. This past weekend, it's Lamar,

who goes down with what I can only call it. I mean, at this point, it's the Lamar. He's either hurt or he's sick or there's something going on. It seems kind of confusing, and maybe you'll play this week, or maybe we don't see him for a month. It feels like that happens every single year. In that game, you don't see like anything. I mean, obviously they went back and saw a replays,

but there was no clear indication Sheel initially that he's hurt. Then he's on the sideline. Then apparently they're talking about going back in the game. Then at some point he leaves the sideline not to be seen again. And now, I mean, Jesse Minter didn't sound like a guy who was really confident that Lamar's going to play this week, which if he doesn't, they actually gave Tyler Snoop Huntley some money this year to be the backup quarterback. But you have to ask just because of the history that some guys who like, they always seem to come right back. His teammate Kyle Hamilton comes back two minutes.

after every major injury. Lamar, there is a history here, and it just makes me wonder, what exactly is this looking like? And similar to last year when Lamar suffered an injury early in the season and then didn't ever seem to get back to 100%. I just wonder based on his game, how much that type of an injury is going to impact it. There's always some mystery to it. There's no doubt about it. And sometimes when coaches answer injury questions, they're being intentionally vague. And sometimes it sort of sounds like they don't know with Jesse Mint there. It was like, no, he doesn't really sound like he knows when Lamar Jackson is going to be back here. I know the media that were there.

The beat reporter said he left the stadium with a boot on his left foot. And so it just adds this degree of mystery, uncertainty to the Raven season. And the fact of the matter is Lamar Jackson's been playing like an MVP candidate. I don't think we've talked about it a lot on this podcast because they haven't had the most highly publicized games or most exciting games so far. But he's been incredible. even in that game in Declan Doyle's offense. I mean, I think he had a string of 11 straight completions at one point in the first half.

He was 15 for 20 for 222 yards and two touchdowns in the first half before he left the game. So it is sort of a big deal that it's going to have an impact on the AFC playoff picture in the league because I'm not sure how good that Ravens team is without Lamar Jackson. It really feels like he's kind of lifted everybody up, the offensive line,

Zay Flowers, the other members. of that offense. So yeah, I mean, it might be the biggest story in the NFL, honestly, this week, just not knowing when Lamar Jackson's going to be back with the Ravens. To your point, Tom, it's the exact same week he got hurt initially last year, too. So it really is right around week four. He's been getting an injury. We don't know. But like, hey, they got a big one next week because they're going to be playing the Falcons on Sunday night football. So now that we've seen the Falcons are one of the best teams in the NFL, is this something that you can kind of go into without him? Because when you get injured

against the Titans, you can kind of say like, okay, well, Stuponle is here, he can kind of take us the rest of way, even though it ended up being a one-score game. But that's like a game that you don't want to risk him getting injured again. But when you have these world beater falcons coming in with Michael Penix, you know, maybe I would dare say a challenge on the NFC to win the NFC championship, I think you'd want to be full strength coming into it. Would you not?

Well, that's always the thing, too, is with Lamar, with there some guys who heal fast as other guys who seem to need a lot of time, to be able to actually get back to 100%. His game is unique because of the mobility aspect of it. There's some quarterback, like, I mean, Justin Herbert, we can talk about that situation too since Jim Harbaugh said that was the grittiest game he's ever seen as the Chargers took a fourth consecutive loss.

Like Herbert just tapes it up and goes, even if he's not, but that's because he doesn't have to move that much. He's not a guy who relies upon his legs. It's just, with Lamar, there's always that aspect of like the stuff that scares you. he's a thoroughbred. Like he's got to be able to run. If he can't, it just it hampers everything else that he's doing.

And that was the Lamar we saw. I think we talked about this on one of the first shows I did with you guys. Like, we didn't see the real Lamar last year. Because once he got that injury, he never seemed to be at full torque again. I'm not saying that's going to be the same case here. But TBD, how long it takes here? Because what you don't want to do is what happened a year ago, frankly,

which is Lamar goes out there and is just kind of at 85. for three quarters this season. That's not a recipe that I don't think anybody wants to see. Yeah, he's got the different layers to his game. He obviously can carve you up from the pocket. We've seen him targeting the middle of the field, making incredible plays downfield.

But then you had that added element of creativity, of scrambling, of being used even in the design run game when necessary. That makes him even more dangerous there. So hopefully, yeah, like you said, get a little timeline on this baby. See when he comes back and when he comes back, it looks like the guy we saw through the first three and a half weeks.

Because like I said, that has been easily one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL so far. Somewhere between day to day and week to week, I think. It'll be what's like a fortnight's two weeks. I don't know. But that's what it seems like is it's like one day to day, one day it'll be week to week. This is just life in Lamar world. Five teams, we're o' and three, five teams for now own four. chargers remain in my mind the most shocking story in the NFL, even though we knew, Billy,

that there might be some complications messing personalities and philosophies with Jim Harbaugh and Mike McDaniel. Like scale of one, everything's going to be okay to 10, absolute five alarm fire. Where are you right now on the trajectory of the L.A. Chargers? I think I would say a confident seven. maybe, maybe higher. It's not like all out panic just yet, but we're getting closer to it. I'd say seven or eight.

Now that I'm talking, eight, let's go eight because I don't know if you saw the post game press conference where they started talking to Harbaugh and they were basically asking him about Mike McDaniel's job security and he gave like a very non-answer to it.

And then they had to follow up and they're like, so is his job in jeopardy? And he like totally didn't understand the question or didn't want to, like give a full answer. Oh, no, no, no. He's perfectly fine. Like, there's,

there's nothing to see here. Everything's good. But it's kind of like, is Justin Herbert getting worse as the season is going on? Because it seems like he's not getting better. And this week's game was not very good. He had two more interceptions. He had less than 200 yards.

He lost another fumble. Like, I'm starting to get concerned. And we've talked about it. We've done the schedule a bunch of times. But it doesn't get any easier for them. They have the Broncos and the Chiefs. then they have a buy, then they have maybe the healthy Rams and Texans,

Ravens, like, it's, I mean, the season's ending for them very quickly if they don't start winning here and they just keep losing. They're headed for irrelevancy. Like we've talked about them probably more so than any other team this season because to what Tom said, they've been probably the biggest story, the biggest disappointment in the NFL so far, but I just, I don't think they're going to be in it with that schedule and with the way they're playing.

And even Herbert's game against the Seahawks, like I'm flipping around, all right, this game's over, it's 276, and then I go back and watch it today. And the second half is the version of Justin Herbert that everybody who is a Justin Herbert fan is like, oh, there's something there. He's scrambling around. He's getting out of the pocket.

He's chucking the football 40 yards down field. And I thought, all right, this is garbage time stats. Who cares? And then they get the ball back. And they have a chance to actually drive and score a touchdown in Seattle against the defending champs and tie the game. And he gets hit from his blind side and fumbles there. So, I mean, my big question, because I think, Tom, you've made the case before.

And it's a good one that the best course for the Chargers might be to just be like, let cooler heads prevail. This was the first year with Mike McDaniel. Jim Harbaugh is on a big contract. They're not going to want to pay him to go away. He's not going to want to go away and give up that money. You're not trading Justin Herbert. Give the whole operation another chance in 2027.

And I think that that, like if you take a step back, like, if you were like, all right, let's be rational about this. I actually think that could make sense. But the way this is going with the losses piling up and that dynamic between McDaniel and Harbaugh, like are they going to all sign up for that for another year if this season continues to go down the tubes? I mean, that's really my biggest question with the charges right now.

Right now, you are just trying to throw baking soda on the grease fire. Like, just put it out. You had two games before the buy. just find a win, any win. And then maybe we can cobble it together and make some adjustments to make a run. What they're going to have to reassess at the buy on like a global level is

are we tracking the right direction in the big picture with this offense, with this coordinator? And that's not to say, if not, you fire my bandayno immediately. But if you decide, like, we need to make changes, not because of 2026, but beyond, you're basically admitting you completely,

completely screwed this up in the offseason. You made the biggest move that you can make as a head coach, which is firing your offensive coordinator, firing your offensive line coach. They kept basically all the other assistant coaches, which is a little bit unusual, but they bring in a new coordinator and a new offensive line coach to try to take Justin Herbert to the next level. If you come to the conclusion, Billy, that it's done the opposite and that you have actually taken Justin Herbert back, that's more in my mind an indictment on the entire decision-making process than it is on Mike McDaniel. Like presumably you had a plan. Here's how this is going to work.

You would have thought it would be accelerated faster than this. If you're seeing, though, when you go back into that tape that, hey, all right, there is growth. We're not winning, but we're growing. Then take the season, ride it out. Don't make major changes. Don't change the play caller. Don't fire a system. Just ride it out and see, can you keep making those games?

because maybe in 2027, you're going to be playing at a high level. I go back to Kyle Shanahan's first year in Atlanta, where now they won games out of the gate. Like Matt Ryan was not happy. Him and Kyle Shanahan did not see eye to eye, because Matt had always been full control at the line of scrimmage, and I can check and I can make all these things happen. Kyle was like, no, you're going to be a robot.

I'm going to have people open. You're going to throw the ball to the right guy, and that's not how Matt had played the game. Well, your two becomes the. MVP. Again, different situation because the Falcons were winning games, at least early in that season, while they were figuring it out, Billy. But you have to think of this. It's not just the short term. Everybody wants their pint of blood here when things are going wrong. But you have to go, right, did we completely mess this up? If we did, then yes, make wholesale changes. But if we think

this is still, like, it's just not coming along as fast as we want, but we think it's the right thing, ride it out, see how the rest of the season goes, and then make a more informed lesser-rested decision when they get to the end of it. To Sheel's point, Herbert was getting better as the game went on. So the game started as bad as it could. He throws an interception first play. Then they get the ball right back because Sam Darnan

decided to throw an interception too. Then they were down 21. They were down 27 to 6, and he got them back in the game and had a chance to tie the game or potentially win the game and then gets hit on his blindside, fumbles the ball. But the thing that's weird about this fit with McDaniel and Chargers is when you're saying, like, is this a bigger, like, picture thing? Like, was this just a mistake that was made in hiring personnel or whatever? I think everybody coming into the season, like, this is the best thing that the Chargers could do is bring in Mike McDaniel.

This is the offensive genius. He's out there. He's available. We saw his short, or we saw the flaws that he had because his quarterback and Tua wasn't good enough. And now if you're listening to, you know, Ringer fantasy show, they're talking about like, well, maybe the Chargers should go and they should sign Tua as their backup if he's available because obviously that works with McDaniel. Maybe that's something that you throw out there. Now, I don't know how many people besides Craig thinks that that's a good idea, but that has been floated out there already. So people are having that conversation. I think that we all would be surprised coming into week four that we are viewing Mike McDaniel in a similar light as we are viewing Davis, West. in terms of which head coach is going to make a change or make an adjustment with the situation with their offensive coordinator first.

The Broncos are the Chargers. Two teams with, I don't think either of those teams would be thought of in this position right now. Well, the other thing is, I mean, with Herbert, it's like at some point he does have to be accountable here. You know, Jim Harbaugh has never won fewer than what he's won, 11 games in five of the six NFL seasons. He's never had a losing record.

and he's 0 and 4 right now, to your point. You know, Mike McDaniel was viewed as a smart, right, offensive mind. Look at what he did with Tua and that Miami offense. And now he comes to the Chargers and the offense doesn't look good. I mean, how many coaches is Herbert going to have to go through or offensive? And again, as I've said before, I'm someone who likes Herbert. I think it's going to happen for him eventually. But to be fair about it, at some point, when the coach keeps getting fired,

when the coordinator keeps getting fired, when you're cycling in different offensive linemen and different past catchers, and it still doesn't happen. Well, the one constant is the quarterback, who we all know is talented and has been very good at times and not so good at times and probably underwhelming when you look at the career as a whole based on the talent, it's fair. It's not a hot take to be like, all right,

but we do have to look at that guy a little bit and wonder why these other pieces are never working. Broncos still trying to figure things out, find their rhythm. We'll talk about them, talk about some other teams that have underachieves, some quarterbacks who have overachieve, a lot more. She'll's got his, what is it again? She'll... You know, I change it every time I say it, but let's say upon further review, we'll see if the audience likes it. If not next week, maybe we just switch up one word and do what's it called

an AB test, Billy? Is that what it's called? Am I using that incorrectly? I don't know. Yeah. We'll do upon further review this week to answer your question. Upon further review right after this. The Ringer NFL show is brought to you by Fandul. It's your most rewarding season ever, only on Fandul. How rewarding are we talking? More rewarding than an 18-point comeback. Maybe even more rewarding than an O-Linman catching a touchdown. And this NFL season, that feeling doesn't stop on the field. Look out for the all-new Fandul rewards club. Exclusive offers, surprises, and more. So every week, check the Fandul app to see what's waiting for you. Make this your most rewarding

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It's Monday night, week four now in the books, which means it's time for Sheel. And upon further review, title still potentially would be tweaked. She'll what do you get? Yeah, I like when we record this pod because we can digest the takes from, all right, what's everybody getting right? What's everybody getting right? What's everybody getting wrong? What do we actually think? So here are some things I've been chewing on since an electric week four, I think, in the NFL. So here's the first one. We've talked a lot about the Houston Texans. The Houston Texans are now 0 and 4. C.J. Stroud is not the reason why the Houston Texans are 0.4. Because I think we all thought coming into the season, if the Texans have a bad season, if they're irrelevant, if things goes out, it's going to be because it's C.J.

Stroud because we know what we're getting from this defense. We know what we're getting from the coaching staff. And it just hasn't played out the way I think we thought it was going to play out. If you just looked at the record, he'd be like Stroud must be the reason. But that game against the Cowboys on Sunday, he was on fire. Threw for 347 yards. Didn't have a turnover. Had eight completions of 20 plus yards the most by any quarterback in a game this season.

He leads them down the field in the fourth quarter, puts what's supposed to be an elite defense on the field to hold the game, and they couldn't do it. And they didn't do it for the second game in a row. So I just think we have to be fair when we talk about the Texans. When we talk about Stroud, I'm not a hipster. I'm not a CJ Stroud. Truther who's like, oh, baby, look at him getting to this backside dig. You guys don't know ball the way I know ball.

I'm not even in that camp. I just think he's played well enough for them to be better this season. And Billy, I'll surprise you with this one. I don't think they're completely cooked. I know they're o'n four. I know the history. These are like coin flip games that they're guessing heads every time and it's tails every single time.

I still think they're a decent team that has a chance to go on a run the rest of the way and sneak into one of those wildcard spots. So you don't have C.J. Stroud as being the reason. Did you have the reason that you have? Do you have a primary reason? Because I was looking up, because I was trying to prepare for a number of different directions that you could go in here and see, like, okay, it's not CJ Strout, so let's start looking.

And it's like, hmm, the run game has been pretty bad. They've only got, you know, 79 rushing yards per game on average here. And only the Bengals are worse. David Montgomery, he's averaging a lot less than he was last year. He has 20 carries for 60 yards the first week. And after that, I mean, he hasn't done a ton more. He's 29, so he's getting older. But he's averaging 4.1 yards for carry this season or over his career,

only 2.7 yards per game this year. So he's a lot down or much further down than he was last season. So like that's a notable thing. Penalties, they're 11th and penalties. So they have a lot of penalties against them, seventh and penalty yards against them. At Montgomery, he has 127 yards for the season. So in case you're wondering,

Kenneth Walker leaves the NFL in rushing yards in season, that's 537. He has two games that have more yards than Montgomery has the entire season. James Cook also has two games with more yards than David Montgomery has the entire season. So the run game hasn't been great. PFF has their O-line ranked right at the bottom of the league. Their O-line hasn't been great.

Their offense ranks 21st in time of possession, so they're not possessing the ball very long. So there's a number of factors here, I think, that you may be right, that it's not all on C.J. Strout. This is a fascinating stat. If you look at the current qualifying passers, right, there's like 35 guys who have thrown enough passes at the season to qualify. There are three quarterbacks who have not,

thrown an interception. And I would fairly guess you would not be able to name those three. You want to take one stab, Sheel? You want to take one guess of somebody who's on the list? Has not thrown an interception this season? I know Purdy hasn't taken a sack. Has he thrown an interception? He'll guess.

Purdy has. Not Purdy. You got to guess, Billy? Well, I know one of them for sure because we're talking about him right now. Right. Okay. Try to guess one of the other two. Okay.

The other two. Context clues. loser everything. Hmm. It's not James. For sure, not James. That's what your mind went? When Tom phrases the question,

who is not throwing the interception? Your mind was like, James was like, James. It would be my first. Yeah. James is thrown three. Yeah, he had a rough week. Case qualified,

Case Keenham thrown interception. I don't remember. He doesn't qualify. He has not. He almost threw a few, but not enough qualifying. None of passes to qualify. The three quarterbacks

who have not thrown a pick this year are Jared Goff, Gino Smith, and C.J. Stroud. So with Stroud, even in, like, the most unfavorable telling, you know, yeah, he's completed 61% of his passes. It was a higher rate yesterday. He's thrown for over 1,100 yards, five touchdown passes, no picks. When I look at the 2026 Texans,

there's two factors, I think, the pop-up. One, Nico Collins being out for a couple weeks, There's a direct correlation between Nico Collins being on the field and them being super explosive. And Nico Collins not being on the field and they're not. Remember, this is a Texan team too that hasn't had Christian Kirk. He got hurt on like the first day of camp, hasn't played. They still don't have tanked L back. They've had to kind of have this different rotation.

When you take Nico out, C.J. Straub's throwing to, you know, just kind of a smattering of other guys out there. The second factor is this Texan's defense, which was, the calling card for them last year. They're the number of one defense in the league. They've had three opportunities, two minute drives to put games away, and they're 0 for three. We know this.

Domeco Ryan's nose football. Matt Burke is a really good defensive coordinator. Whatever it is, whatever buttons they're pushing, they have to push other ones. In those two-minute situations, like this is why you invest in Will Anderson, Jr. at the top of the market. And Daniel Hunter's making like $40 million.

And Derek Stingley is one of the highest-paid, corners. Like, you're expecting that group to step up. They didn't have Valzis-Elshire on Sunday. I'm sure that that makes a factor, but it's a little bit of a pattern, small sample size, but that's the stuff that if you're the Texans coaches, Sheila, you've got to be banging your heads against the wall. Like, we're good enough. We know that we've done this before, but three cracks at it, and we haven't closed out any of these games. I would imagine that Domingo and Burke and those guys, it's been a lot of time this week. Okay, we know we're good enough. We're playing the Titans this week. Okay. Like, this is a,

you should win this game. No offense to the Titans, but you absolutely should win this game. Let's make sure if the Titans keep it close, which they kind of have, because Saul's done a good job with their defense, let's make sure our defense where we've got all the investment and that's what we're known for

isn't the reason that we let this thing slip away again. It's weird because Will Anderson, I think, has maybe been the best defensive player in football this year. Like he is making an impact. He is doing everything in his power to get that defense going. And there are stretches where you watch them and you're like, okay, this is the defense we thought they were going to be. But to your point, they're not closing these games.

And overall, if you just, you know, look at EPA or whatever, they're 25th in EPA. Now, part of this is they've gone up against Josh Allen, Joe Burrow, and Dak Prescott in three or four games where I know they should be able to perform better against those guys, but that is a tough group. You know, if you're just naming the top 10 quarterbacks in the NFL this season, all three of those guys are going to be in there. And then part of it, I hate to use this as analysis, because it's like, Sheel, we're paying you.

It should be a little bit better than they're getting a little unlucky. But I think they're getting a little unlucky. I mean, week one, Josh Allen is chucking that ball to Kamari Lasseter in the end zone. He drops the ball. Like, if that play happens 10 times, I don't know. Is he catching it at least six or seven times, probably? And he doesn't catch it there. That could be a win there.

And even this last game, I mean, they had some calls. Lasseter has not had a great season. He's been one of the better corners in the NFL, but he had some calls not go his way on that final drive where the Cowboys had it. So these are all reasons why I'm like, you know what? I don't think they're that far away.

I totally agree with Tom's point about Nico Collins. He just totally changes what their offense should actually look like. So it's not the hardest schedule going forward. I was looking at it. I think they need to go 10 and 3, which seems like a big ass for an, and four team. They won nine games in a row last year at one point.

So it's like the bones are still there for this team. I'm not crossing them off as a team that could still potentially get hot. Going through their schedule shoot, I'm trying to find these 10 wins. But more importantly, I'm trying to find these three losses. And it's possible. It sounds crazy,

but it's possible that they could do this. You have to win this week. You simply have to win this week against Tennessee. Because then you're at Jacksonville and home against the Giants team that we can talk about later, but they're not an easy out right now. That's before the buy. You would hope, yeah, coming out of the buy, the chargers have been terrible. The Browns will see how they're sustained in November.

Like, you've got some games you'd like to think you can win. You got to get the one. And then you go, okay, you know, if we can take these next two going to the buy at three and four, it's going to feel a hell of a lot different than, you know, two and five or one and six. Yeah, absolutely. All right, my next one here. Here we go. Second thing, I've been chewing on a quarterback we've talked about before on this podcast,

had a moment on Sunday night. Bryce Young might be delivering. And I can't wait to hear, Tom, give us some information on maybe what the contract negotiations have looked like or could look like. But Bryce Young might be delivering one of the best bet on yourself seasons in recent memory. I mean, if you watch that game Sunday night against the Lions, he throws for 329 yards. they go up and down the field.

I swear the box score said he had like 12 in completions. I watched the whole game. I don't remember the ball hitting the ground at any point in that game. It felt like a miracle when the Panthers threw an incompletion. And the thing with this game is he's had little games in the past where he say, oh, there's something there. I don't think he's had a stretch like this to open the season, four games in a row where he ranked seventh in EPA, even last year when it felt like he was making progress. He ranked 24th.

So this is totally different than anything he's done in the past. I think the eye test backs it up. He looks really comfortable. That internal clock that like the quarterback announcers always talk about. It seems like he's got that. When pressure's coming, he knows when to step up. He knows when to get creative. He knows when to get rid of the ball.

And I just feel like this is shaping up to potentially be one of the big feel-good stories in the NFL. Did you guys see the video when he went into the locker room? The MVP chance? I didn't see it now. Yeah. Billy wasn't moving. You're not moved by that. No, it's not that.

I mean, I just, I kind of feel bad. I watched so many of these locker room videos and I have a lot of thoughts, but go ahead. Well, was it like a team published one where it was like, oh, the Panthers put this out. So there's like the nice music underneath so it like really gets you in the fields. It seems genuine. Like that one seemed genuine. I watched one with Matt LaFleur giving a speech in the locker room. And it felt like he was trying, but they were all like, oh my God, we almost blew that game to the buck starting.

And I'm drafted for you. This one. one felt a lot better than that Packers one. I'll say that. I don't know if you caught this. There's been a lot of criticism of Bryce over the years, but during last night's game, Chris Collinsworth said something that I was like,

hmm, I don't know that he's entirely wrong, but I also don't know that it's fair criticism where he said, you know, Bryce Young often gets criticized for kind of being told that he's not in the zone during the game. And a lot of that comes down to his face.

If you look at his face, it looks like he's not always in the zone. And I'm like, I don't know, Chris. I'm not sure that this is a fair one. He just looks kind of like a happy guy that's not to say that he's not in the zone. Maybe this is a dumb question, but I oppose it to both of you

because you're saying, is this like one of the best like bet on yourself seasons ever? It seems like, unless I'm totally off here, they would just pick up his fifth year option, right? So he's making a little over $12 million this year. They already did that, I think.

So yeah, right, right, Tom. He signed for 2027. Take up the option, correct. So then he'll make 25... By this past spring. Yep. Yeah, so he'll make $25 million next. year. So, I mean, he still has to perform next season too, right? Like, this is a good season for him,

but he's got to continue to carry it on. And they didn't believe in him enough to give him that big contract extension yet. Well, the options, you know, that's a rock on your cap because you can't like prorate it and stuff. And so nobody wants to carry that 50 year option number for the quarterback. And then you're getting down the road of the tags. Like, listen, you could do it, you know, a variety of different ways. But usually if you got a quote, quarterback playing at a high level, you get the contract done. Now, in terms of what discussions took place in the offseason, my understanding was it was very, I don't want to say cursory, but they didn't get into any deep negotiations. It was just, hey, this is where we would do a deal.

Well, that's not where the market's going to be this year or next year. All right, we're not going to get a deal done. And it kind of made sense because you'd say the arrow's pointing up, right, on Bryce through the course last year and you get into the playoffs, so it'll be it at eight and nine. But he had his moment. It made sense. the Panthers want to gather more information. And it made sense for Bryce that, all right, if I'm not going to be getting paid like a top five, top 10 quarterback, I'll just wait and I'll play it out

because I got fully guaranteed money through 2027. The Bryce we've seen, though, this is something better than I think that we've seen him in terms of just the way that he is playing. And in terms of his demeanor on the field, like I've met Bryce a couple of times. That's just kind of how he is. Like that's his natural.

You don't want to pretend you're somebody else and act like you're a fiery guy on the field when in reality you're just like, you know, you're having fun. Do you remember after, you know, the year he got bench? And then the only reason he got back in the lineup was because Andy Dalton was in a car accident. And so Bryce went out there and he kind of caught fire.

And there was a play in the game against, I think it was New Orleans down the stretch in 2024 where he has the pass and he does the full like, turn your back when you shot the three-pointer and just like it goes in. and he throws the touchdown. And it was like, that's him. Like the joy was back.

And I give Dave Canales from that staff. You know, Brad Isick was calling the plays now. Will Herger, the quarterback coach, like everybody deserves a lot of credit for building someone up who had hit such a low in his career. And think about this in watching the game last night. He's doing that without Jalen Coker, who is his most reliable target out of the gate, without Xavier Leggett, who's on injured reserve right now. team act goes wild. TeamAC is a bad man.

But that basketball team that you've been building around him was like depleted. Not to mention one of your starting guards is out. One of your starting tackles goes down in the game. Like there's a lot of things. When you're running backs, the guy Jonathan Brooks, who everybody was thinking was going to be the lead back. He's on IR. Like they've got all these different moving parts. And Bryce has found a way to elevate himself above it.

Now, that's a Lions team that's just gutted by injuries, especially in the secondary. So you should light them up. but big stage. Panthers are almost never on TV, never in prime time, never having a game like this. And it felt like one of those moments. Not to mention now you're going into your buy, you're sitting there going, we're lighting it up. We've got the leading passer in the NFL and we're two and two in a division that's just not that great. If you're a Panthers fan waking up today, you should be excited about the team. But also really excited about Bryce Young, who contrary to whatever one in the world thought a year and a half into his career, maybe a lot closer to C.J. Stryry. in terms of the one, two, in that draft.

Yeah, I like, I love the Canales point because a lot of times the young quarterback, it doesn't work for them with the team that drafted them. And then they have to go somewhere else to have that whole process of, all right, let somebody build me back up and I'm in a better situation like Sam Darnold. And now it works where he's in the same place. And I don't think anyone a couple of years ago would have predicted that it's going to happen for him in Carolina. Now, Billy, I think you're right when you were alluding to like pump the brakes a little.

They don't have to do anything. You're right about that. They could do something. I don't think it would be the worst idea for them to slow play this. Obviously, there's so many variables here. Let's see how the rest of this season goes. Can he stay healthy? Can he sustain this level of play?

What are they doing the playoffs? Like there's a bar that he clears where if he clears it, it's going to be an easy decision. And they're going to be like, no-brainer. Look at the season you just had. There's a big middle ground there where, you know, what if they go nine and eight? And he's good at times, but he's not great at times.

and he has some injuries where they could say, okay, let's just have him play out next year on the fifth year option, even though there are those cap ramifications. You still have the franchise tag in your pocket for 2028. Because I think some of these teams, given what we've seen with some of the quarterback contracts that have been handed out,

they might be like, I know it's going to get more expensive, but I still would like to be sure if we're going to hand out this kind of money to a guy given what those prices are going to be right now. It's a dangerous game though, right? Because that's what happened with 201. where Tua, you waited too long, then you signed him to that massive deal,

and now he's basically crippled the Dolphins franchise for the next three seasons, two seasons where it's like, well, he's got to go. He's obviously not the answer here, but we have to pay him forever. Also, and we kind of were talking about it before this season started, Baker didn't want to sign unless he was getting 50 plus million a year and he got three years, right? He signs that deal. He immediately gets hurt, and now you're kind of like, well, Baker might be out for, you know, a decent amount of time.

He'll come back and he'll be the franchise quarterback again, but it starts getting pricey with quarterbacks, especially if you're not convinced that he's your guy. If the money that he's going to get in the fifth year option next year is 25, but he wants to be top 10, you're looking at $50 million a year starting for him, right? And you're not 100% sure. And fair or not, we've kind of questioned Bryce because of his size

since pre-draft even, right? We always saw him and it's like, oh, he looks small. And then when I think people were really like, oh, he's really small was when, you know, friend of the show, Mina Kimes, took a picture with him at the Super Bowl. like three years ago before he was drafted. It's like, they're the same height. Like, is he like 5'8?

Like, is Mina 6'4? Like, how tall is this guy? Is he actually that small? And then he didn't have a great rookie season. He was benched, you know, the car accident and Tom talked about. So he's gone through a lot. And to his credit, he never kind of gave up on himself. And he was ready to play that role last year where they brought him back in.

He proved himself. And this year he's been great so far for them. I mean, it's only, you know, four weeks into the season. But still, he's done as good as he can. The advantage of signing guys early is you get it at today's dollars, not tomorrow's dollars, right? You can save on the market. But there are a lot of cautionary tales, too, is a big one because there were so many blinking red lights of just let the guy play it out. Just go into, let him, you know, he wants to not, remember he wasn't participating in training camp.

They felt like we got to do it. We're going to commit to him. But he had already had the concussion issues, the other injury issues. And obviously from that point forward, he never played all that great. great. But, you know, Kyler was another one. They did that after year three. They tried, all right, even though we have all these concerns with him, we're going to do the deal now because it's better than doing it later. You know, Tua's making like 53 million from the dolphins this year. Kyle was making like 37 million from the Cardinals. I get why it seemed like the Panthers can look at

this and say, all right, the arrow is pointing up, but we also have to remember where it was before. In other words, how good is he actually going to be? Yes, it's a lot better than it was, but is it going to be top 10 type play for a top, you know, top 10 money. With Bryce right now, you have to say, you know, the guy we saw last night, the guy who's seen through four weeks is a borderline top 10 quarterback. He certainly has the production. But, you know, if you get to the end of this year and you're able to gather more information, you may feel a little bit better.

Right. Now we will pay the extra $5, $10 million a year, whatever it might be just because now we feel more comfortable about the entire body of work here. I wonder how willing he is to go down the past. path though, right? Because like you've had quarterbacks that have gone down that path. You've had DAC who was seemingly always in these negotiations where like 2019, it's like, oh, we want to give you $30 million. Like, nope, I want $40.00. Like, okay, how about $33? He's like, nope, I want 40. Then eventually he goes and he gets a longer deal with like five year 175. Then he does that again,

right? Where it's like, I want to make, you know, $50 million year, $60 million year. He ends up holding out playing under the tag. He gets that contract. You have Lamar Jackson who asked for a trade and then he was playing under the tag, bet on himself, then ends up getting a massive deal for himself. So I wonder if Bryce not having already signed one of those massive deals and kind of essentially losing his job and then getting it back because of a freak accident, and now he's performing,

I wonder if he does actually, because to Chris Collins' point, his face doesn't look like someone who's going to be like a hard ass here and he's going to like really press them. So is he willing to kind of not hold out, but really make things uncomfortable until he gets the number that he wants. Price has already made close to $40 million in his career.

He's due $25.9 on the fifth year option in 2027. So you don't have like the financial complications that you would if let's say you're a Kirk cousins and you were a fourth round pick. But as we saw with Kirk, if you can find yourself in that position and if you have the guts to say, I'm going to play it all the way out. I'm going to even play through the tag. That's the only time that your leverage comes. Kirk Cousins this year is on his 11th consecutive fully guaranteed year,

going all the way back to 2016 or 2016, rather, when he played on the franchise tag. So if you do it, just like Lamar did it too. He played the whole thing out and no agent would have advised him as a former MVP. Yeah, year four, go play for $3 million. They would have told him hold out. But there are different ways that you can approach it. Again, Bryce has made more money than most quarterbacks in the post-2011 CBA era through the first four years of his career. If anybody can go, hey, what's my worst-case scenario?

I made $40 million. Now I'll just wait it out until I get traded or something else. I don't think there's any reason that you wouldn't do that. But it also, you know, there's a two-part thing here. It's also what does the team want to do? It'll be a fascinating negotiation. Who knows? Maybe even comes up this week, they're on the buy.

He's playing really well. Do they re-engage? I don't know that that happens, but if you were ever going to do it, we've seen that happen with other teams in the past. Tom think or does Tom know? That's not a no. That's not a knowing that anything's happening.

That's four games. If you didn't think you had enough, that's what I heard there, subscribe to the great newsletter. This is Saturday. This was four games. Exclusive details on Bryce's new contract and the sweep.

We'll find out. You're ever going to re-engage. Now's the time. Yeah, I think that, you know, just the last thing I'll say on this is just those guys had much greater body of work. So for as much as I'm enjoying the month that Bryce Young has had,

that's kind of what it's been, a month, and then little pockets previously. Kirk Cousins, Stack, Prescott, Lamar Jackson. I mean, these guys had been above average quarterbacks for multiple seasons. So he's got to figure that out. But Billy, the quarterback body language thing is what quarterback has the body language on the sideline that is universally accepted? Because it feels like whatever your game you're watching,

you could say this about the guy. You know, like, oh, look at his face on this side. I know he's sitting by himself or, you know, oh, he's not even looking at the tablet. Does this guy even take football seriously? There's like these three second clips you see of quarterbacks and they get ripped for this stuff. Is there anybody who we're like, oh, that's, you know,

everybody would love with this. That's ideal body language. Yeah. Joe Flacco just looks like he's about to fall asleep at all times. Dad, when he's not on the field. Everybody's different. Whoever's winning. That's the right. That's right. There is not. Yeah, I think we've reached the right conclusion. All right, my last one here. This is kind of a multi-parter. I'm glad Tom, you know, mentioned the lions earlier, but we didn't go deep into it. So we're all on the same page because there might be an opportunity to do that here. So here's the premise. Until further notice, I cannot take these teams that were considered contenders before the season. I can't take them seriously. And I'm not including teams like the Chargers and Texans. They're 0 and 4. We understand we don't have to take them.

Seriously. These are three, two and two teams that I'm bumping up the panic level on until they give me a reason to say, she'll calm down, settle down. Okay, it's only October. So there's three of them. I'm going to give them to you one by one. We can discuss them one by one. The first one, as we just hinted at, the Detroit Lions, my preseason Super Bowl pick. Yeah. I'm concerned. And the analysis here is simple. Their defense is a complete dumpster fire. And there doesn't appear. to be a way out. I mean, I don't know what other way to say it. I could bore you with all the statistics. They all start with, they are 30 second in, and then I could give you like 12 different categories for the Detroit lines. This is the worst defense in the NFL. And I don't think Brian Branch potentially returning from an Achilles will be enough to save them. It could help them, but I don't think

it's going to be enough to save them. So I think their options are get aggressive at the trade market. Sounds like they at least were making calls about Joey Porter Jr. Tom can tell us about that come up with some type of brilliant schematic shift, which I don't know, can you do that in the middle of the season? That sounds kind of tough. Or you risk being some version of last year's Bengals or last year's Cowboys. That's where I'm at with this team because I think they're still going to win games, easy schedule, good offense. But like I said earlier, when a team doesn't complete a pass against them, it feels like a miracle. They're not good at anything defensively. and I'm worried.

I was looking up their defense because it has been horrendous, to put it politely. It's been very bad. So they've allowed 423 yards per game. The next closest is the Colts at 392. Usually when you're looking at like yards per game, points per game,

it's like one or two, 0.8 difference from like one to the other. This is 30 yards difference that they're allowing per game. Points per game, they've allowed, or passing yards per game, 304, the Jaguards 280, another one that is like a massive

Gulf. It's really bad. And last year, they're only allowing 217. So you're looking at, what, 90 extra passing yards you're allowing per game? You've mentioned their secondary has been decimated. So there's a lot of injuries there. But, you know, rushing the best, it's the best of their defense.

They're 21st in the league in rushing yards allowed per game. That's still not very good. Last year, they only allowed 24 points per game. This year, it's 31, so it's a full touchdown difference. I mean, it's early, you know, and they lost, they lost to the bills who they were not favored to lose. They're favored in 14 coming to the season, 14 of the 17 games. One of the games was the Bills game.

So that was like, could be a scheduled loss, right? The game against the Panthers was a surprise, but again, they're injured. So I don't think it's full-blown panic time, but I do wonder, and I mean, maybe it's crazy. But if the Jets say Aaron Glenn, you know, your time has come, it's time to go. This isn't working out. And he becomes available to the lions.

In season? In season. The old Hugh Jackson? Kelvin Shepard, this was fun, but we're going to bring in an old friend to maybe help out here, you know? Like, if you can bring back the guy who was your guy when you were at your peak

in terms of where the lions were, do you try to get him back? Is that something Aaron would even be interested in? In season, he wouldn't be, right? But next season, if this trend continues. You have to make some sort of change here. I mean, sure, after the season, if he's available, it's possible.

I don't think Aaron Glenn, sitting here right now, is going to be available in the season. We have seen it. There have been several of those times. Belichick used to bring back his assistance during the season when they got fired. I mentioned Huey got fired by the Browns. I saw him like a week later wearing Bengals gear on the field before a game. Like, it's not totally, you know, off the wall. to talk about that stuff.

They've got a lot of different issues in Detroit on defense right now. It starts with the secondary is just gutted. Everybody, you know, ripped Terry on Arnold long before the legal issues, but going back to just like, you know, his completions allowed and pass right and all that. But like from day one,

they were confident going, you're taking the number one receiver. Like, you're going to be on an island and you're just playing with them and you're going to deal with it. And he competed week in a week out. Last year he was heard, obviously. DJ Reed's been banged

up all season. Branch hasn't played. He might be the most important guy in that defense. And Kirby Joseph hasn't played. I don't think he's going to be back anytime soon. He is trying to get back this season, but he's got a pretty significant knee injury that the rehab process is really elongated. And that's why he's not out on the field yet. But even more so, they just, they don't seem to have an identity. When you talk to other people who have faced them, it's just kind of like, what are they trying to be on defense? You know, if you want to have optimism if you hear offense for the Lions has scored 31 31 31 26 points you'd say if we're scoring like that for most teams like you're in these games the problem is you've given up 30

41 24 and 32 week five last game before the buy they are at arizona drew petzing revenge game going the offensive coordinator going back against his old team in arizona like this is i hate to say must wins in week five but this feels like one the Cardinals are competitive every single week. They've scuffled over these last few weeks to try to finish off these games, but they're going to be in their building. Two and three going into your buy is going to feel like, what do we do now? Three and two, you get a win.

You still got your entire NFC North Slate ahead of you. They come out of the buy against the Packers and the Vikings both at home. You're three and two going into those games and the division feels wide open. I wouldn't feel that bad about it. Right now, just the defense isn't good enough. And Brad Holmes doesn't have a long history of trading high draft picks for players. I don't know what individual player, frankly, is going to fix what's going on on defense. They have to find an identity.

They have to get branched back. They probably do have to make a move of some kind before the deadlines. Just a lot of pieces. Otherwise, it's going to be our. Jared, congrats to scoring 30 a game. We're going to need 40 instead. I know that's the problem is that their offense is good. It's a top five offense by any metric you can look at.

And it's like, do you want to waste that? a year where you have a easy schedule and it feels like there's no juggernaut in the NFC, there are good teams. And Dan Campbell had that quote. We all know back in the day where he's like, that could be our only chance. I just wonder if there's some point where they feel that sense of urgency and they're like, it might be out of character for us to make a move like this, but now's the time. We got to do something here. And maybe the best case scenario is Branch comes back healthy. Kirby Joseph does come back. And then you add one more player. I mean, that could get me to a place where it's like, okay, it might not be perfect,

but it's going to look a lot better than it looks right now. They're just not giving them a chance. When the Lions offense punts in a game or turns it over, it feels like the game just shifts. And it's like, uh-oh, that might be enough for them to lose. There's just like no margin for error for the offense. So yeah, Lions defense has me very, very concerned in a big way. Let's see what it looks like in the weeks ahead.

Okay, I got two more teams. Oh, go ahead, Billy. It could also be worse for them, right? Like, they could very well be 0-4 at this point because their wins have been one score wins. Like there was the first overtime game that they won by one because the Saints decided to go by two. Like, this could be uglier than it actually is for them.

So they've kind of treaded water enough at this point. And they had big leads in those games. And then they're just getting lit up in the second half in some of them. Okay, my second team here, I got three of these. Second one is the Philadelphia Eagles. Their offseason is shaping up to be a disaster. They had 172 yards of offense on Sunday against the Rams. That was their lowest total in a game in the last 12 years.

They had 68 net passing yards in that game. That was their lowest total in the last 23 years. 0 for 12 on third down. I mean, I could go on. I don't know if you guys are getting bored or not. But they go three and out on 45% of their possessions. It just looks hopeless. injuries, there's coaching, there's Jalen Hertz looking uncomfortable. It's all of the above.

Like there's always these conversations in Philadelphia. Is it this? Is it this? Is it this? I'm like, you had a 68 net passing yards. It's probably all of those things. This is terrible. So defense is not good enough to carry them. And unless I see some progress, I put them in the same bucket as the Lions where it's like, I cannot take you seriously as a contender in the NFC. Is this just too close to home for you? Like the 0 for 12 on third down, obviously is terrible. That being shut out in the second half, two weeks in a row is terrible.

But is this just maybe Sheel and Philly had higher expectations? So now that we're not where we thought we'd be, like the panic alarms going off a little bit? I don't think so because I said for all offseason, I think the offense is going to take some time and the defense is going to be able to carry them to some wins. It's a new scheme. But this is not like, oh, it's up and down.

It's kind of bad. Tom, this is like, I can't watch this anymore. I can't imagine anybody who has no interest in the two specific teams playing in that game or is betting on it or has fantasy implications. I can't imagine why anyone would want to have their TV on the Eagles offense at any point so far this season. Well, let's look to the defense for a second. They're 22nd right now in yards loud per game.

The defense has struggled throughout, and you saw when the Rams had some got-to-have-it moments in the second half, they were able to get those things done. You make a trade in the offseason for Jonathan Grenard. That has been a zero impact type of a trade so far. I'm sure how he's thinking about other things he can do to fortify that side of the ball. Offensively, I do think we need to give a little bit more grace. It is a difficult system that Sean Mannion is putting in. He's also first-time play caller.

And think about this in the game yesterday. If Sequin doesn't slip and hurt his hamstring early, are we convinced they're not winning that game going away? They also was Tank Bigsby in the games. They're down to Shipley's the only healthy running back left on the roster. They find out Lane Johnson's not going to play like two hours before kickoff, which you can only imagine the impact that is. And oh yeah, Devante Smith wasn't available either. I think that there's more circumstances.

I know it's Philly. I know that every single loss is a fold-the-franchise moment. But I do think that if you look at all the various factors, I think Jalen Hertz has played fine overall. From what I have seen, knowing the challenges, knowing that this scheme is such a departure from what he's done and maybe not on paper the best fit for him. He's working every week on this thing.

They haven't got Mackay Lemon going yet. I understand the things that are happening in terms of like their identity and what is it. But all the injuries right now and knowing that Nick has pulled out of, I don't know how many tailspins during his time as the head coach, I'm not that concerned about the Eagles just yet. And if I am concerned about the Eagles, it's more on the defense right now than it is on the offense.

I'm going to have to send that to all my friends and neighbors and family, Billy, because Tom did a nice job there, calming everyone down in Philadelphia. It's only October. They're two and two. Yeah, I think Kurtz had two good games, two bad games probably, but maybe that's what you would expect learning a new scheme with some of those circumstances. I'm just, yeah, maybe you're right, Billy. I'm too close to it.

I have to watch every step for the rig. It's really special. I know. I'm just telling you, it's hard to watch this offense right now. Okay, third team here. The Denver Broncos. are third on my list here. They've gotten out gained by more than 200 yards twice already this season.

The rest of the NFL, that's only happened five other times for the 31 other teams. You know, they pull out that game against the Rams last week. Give them credit. And this was a gutty effort with the defense. You had injuries there against the 49ers. And that was a close game in the second half. but this Davis Webb, Sean Payton conversation doesn't appear to be going anywhere. I mean, I don't know how many times Sean Payton has been asked about it.

And we're only in week four. And like his response this week was like, I understand the question. I appreciate the question. You know, it's not a bad question. But yeah, we're not making a change right now or whatever he said. But their run game, they didn't have a run of more than nine yards against sort of a depleted 49ers defense. Jalen Waddle is not being featured. Bo Nix.

There's just a lot of checkdowns there. I don't think they're a bad team. I don't think any of these three teams are bad teams. I think they all have a good chance to finish over 500 and be a playoff team. But we're talking about the bar to clear. Do they look like an actual contender? I'm waiting for this Broncos offense and I'm trying to be patient. But if not for that miraculous comeback against the Rams,

we're talking about them as a one and three team. I would just like to see a little bit more progress with the offense specifically. Well, the run game has been really bad. J.K. Dobbins high this season, was 49. RJ Harvey's high was this past week with 25 yards per game.

So that's not going to be good enough obviously to get it done. I mean, I think if you were to shield if you wanted to calm down, which you seem on edge today, I don't know if you had coffee or what's going on.

You're very excitable. You're very panicked. I would say, if you were to kind of like take a step back and try to give this some perspective, okay, they have a brutal schedule this year.

If you were to look at their first six games of the season, before the season started, at the Chiefs, Jaguars, Rams at 49ers, at Chargers, who at the time we thought was going to be a playoff team, and then versus the Seahawks.

If you were to look at those first six games, you would say, you know, if they could go three and three in those six, I might take it because those are going to be three really tough games. So if you just do the first four Chiefs, Chaguars, Rams 49ers, I feel like while they haven't looked great, at two and two before the season started, you still might take two and two, right,

and say, okay, this is going to be a tough beginning of the season, right? Then if we look at like week seven to 15, that's where you can win six of eight and kind of get back on track. Then you start getting back into like wild card. Maybe you steal the division mode, but their schedule this year was really tough. It is when you look at the stats and just how low they rank on both sides of the football. It's alarming. You know, to look at the, on defense, you know, there's no Jonathan Cooper right now. That does make a factor. He's still on the, the, the, missioner's exemplist.

You know, now Pat Sertan's beat up. It sounds like, I want to say week to week, because I think he probably misses a couple weeks, but it sounds like you might be able to even avoid injured reserve, which you would not have thought based on how he went down in that game. They're beat up at those spots. I have seen them before figured this out on defense. And so I would think that they figure it out. Offensively, my takeaway just watching the Broncos right now is, when you have like a

got to have it moment when you, it's just like, all right, our best player, our best player. I don't know who that is. Jalen Waddle has had, I don't know what is official or unofficial drop total is, but I've seen him drop a bunch of passes. It just feels like he's not comfortable. Maybe he's pressing a little bit too hard right now. Like, where is Cortland Sutton in the offense? You know, the running backs have been kind of a different combination every week.

They just seem like they're kind of grasping, okay, what exactly are we? But Bo Nix hasn't played bad. I don't think by any stretch. It just seems like in terms of what's happening around him, where the football needs to go, there's just a little bit of a feeling out process that's continuing to take place. I don't see Sean Payton. Just like I said after week one week,

it wasn't going to be after one week, wasn't going to be after four weeks. We're going to have Tom this every week. All the organizational decisions. But certainly they've got to be better. They've just got to be a better team. I've not walked away from Broncos game yet going, those guys suck. That's not a playoff team.

Every time I'm like, I know there's more on both sides of the ball. Like, why aren't they playing better? And there's a difference between you're not playing well, and you're bad. I think the Broncos right now are a team that's not playing well on either side of the football. And let's see, you know, over these next four weeks, you kind of figure some of those things out exactly what they are.

All right. You're right. You're right. I am a little bit. High strong. On edge, you know, it happened. But there is truth to the idea, because you see this around the NFL with these teams and other teams that the first, however many weeks of the season, it's just like stay in it, pile up some wins. It doesn't matter how it looks.

And then at some point, find yourself, whether it's late October, early November, where it's like, oh, okay, this is what we're good at, this is what we're bad at. Here's who's injured. Here's who's healthy. Here's this young player who we didn't think was going to contribute, but now is a revelation and now we have more of an identity. So maybe it's a little bit of that. I think Tom's right about the makeup of the Broncos was always not going to be.

Bo Nix has to carry us. It's been, hey, in this situation, you can win a lot of games with Bo Nix. and it feels like that situation maybe hasn't been as uplifting as I at least anticipated coming into the season. But they do still have all three of these teams that I just mentioned. They still have a lot of talent and generally it's smart to bet on talent. So there you go. I still have more games from Sunday to talk about.

We've got an undefeated team that can't score a touchdown. We've got officials being suspended for using dirty words. We'll talk about it. Where some see heroes. and others see egos. Bloomberg sees the era of billionaire athletes. While others follow the noise, we follow the money.

Learn more at Bloomberg.com. I feel like every week we have some type of what's going on in the NFC North segment. We just broke down the lions. The Bears started their third different quarterback in three weeks, kind of a grimy win where they had like 900 yards to 10 for the jets or whatever it was.

you got the Packers who are just gutting it out every week just feels like they're trying they got a million injuries Micah Parsons it doesn't sound like he's going to be back for several more weeks like that that helps not coming anytime soon and then you got the Vikings who are

4-0 they're the first team since the Chicago Cardinals over 100 years ago to start 4-0 with multiple games not scoring a touchdown I feel I watched a decent amount of that game and as much as they are playing to who they are.

They're playing to. We've got a great defense. It is a bumpy ride right now watching that offense, even though I do think Tyler Murray, you saw him found a little bit of rhythm, getting going with Addison, even more with T.J. Hawkinson in the game. What do you make?

At a time, there's only three unbeaten teams. You got the cheats. You have the 49ers, and you got these Vikings. What do you make in Minnesota? See, this is nice. Now we can do a roll reversal. Now I can tell you guys, settle down a little bit, you know?

They're undefeated. Here's the thing with the Vikings, is that they need the offense to be average to be a very good team. If the offense is good, now we're talking maybe an actual contender. And they're not there yet. But I watched that game and I was like,

especially in the second half, I know the first half was very ugly. In the second half, I'm like, I am seeing signs of progress here. You know, it's a 12-10 game. It's tight and they have to put together two drives. They put together two long drives later in that game. Kyler Murray kind of got hot late in that game,

you know, with T.J. Hawkinson, you mentioned he was completing passes. He looked more comfortable. They're clearly adapting the offense to what he's comfortable with. They're playing out a shotgun a lot, but they didn't have Justin Jefferson. They lose two offensive linemen during the game. They had 336 yards.

They could have had a touchdown if T.J. Hawkinson didn't slide there at the two-yard line. So I'm not telling anyone it's perfect, but if I look at from last week to this week, and given that it's the only the second full game that Kyler Murray has played for Kevin O'Connor, I was kind of like, all right, at least, you know, it could have gone the other way. It didn't go the other way. He stayed healthy where now at least I'm in a mode of let's see a little bit more. The defense is going to carry the team.

You don't have to be great, but I kind of see a little bit here. So yeah, I'm kind of like, everybody settled down. Now I was killing the Vikings offense last week. Now I'm like, you know what? It looked a little better this week. I mean, they still scored one touchdown since week one. Week one, it was like, what is this offense? Right.

You probably thought like, okay, this seems to be really. really good. They can put up 35 points, five touchdowns a week with the defense that they're going to have. Like, this is going to be a serious contender. And then they've kind of just cooled. The concern, I guess, is if the offense doesn't figure it out is how far can the defense take you, right? And to Shields' point,

Hockinson did stop at the one yard line. So it shouldn't have been a five point game. They should have won by, you know, let's say 12, 11, whatever it is, right? The counterpoint would be Chris Bell stepped out of balance about an inch. And that was a touchdown that they gave up. There was a massive play that he became ineligible because before he ran

downfield. He had the foot out, which, by the way, that's on the equipment staff for having him wear black shoes with the white sidelines. Like, that's one of those things that's very easily fixable where the white shoes could have it be like, ah, is there like a little slipper of green in there? I don't know. Like, are we going to call this? So that was a fortunate situation for the Vikings, but the four and oh seems like a, this isn't a team that's going to go undefeated, right? I don't think any of us think that. It's a good position to be in, but if the offense doesn't figure it out, there should be some concerned as to

how far the defense can take you. Also, Justin Jefferson didn't play in that game because of his ankle. He wants to play this week against the Saints. If he can't go, I fully anticipate he'll be back after the buy. That makes a big difference. But you guys are actually right. I mean, the limited time-on task for Kyler,

who remember, split in reps, the whole off season with a guy who's no longer there, just starting to find those things. They just lost their left guard. That's a big deal. And also just Aaron Jones is giving it everything he's got. It's just not primetime Aaron Jones anymore. So let's see how kind of things shake out of the running back room as well.

We also had one of several incidents yesterday involving officials in that game. It was in that case, Adrian Hill, getting real upset because Eric Wilson bumped into him, knocked him over. He actually got shoved into him. Hill said, you get out of here or something like that. He gets suspended for a game. You also had Jeff Seaman get suspended two games for telling Trey McBride to bleep himself, bleep you, bleep you. And then he had Mike Vrable, who got an unsportional like conduct penalty for telling the ref it was a bleeping,

terrible bleeping call. I assert this, Billy, to you, and I just want your opinion on this. in terms of the hierarchy of what you should be penalized or suspended before, do any of these rise to the level where you think it's beyond the normal thing in the game? I felt no is the answer. I think we just have more cameras than we ever had

and we have more microphones than we ever had. But the Trey McBride one, I was like, I feel like this happens all game long, every game. We just don't see it that clearly. the situation where Eric Wilson bumped into an official, I felt particularly bad for him because he was trying to help him up after.

And then he's like, get out of here. It was like so mad at him. It's like, this is clearly an accident. He's trying to help you up. Like, you don't have to get so mad here. And then the Vrabel thing, I mean, I feel like the coaches are verbally assaulting the officials all the time.

And I would imagine they get it right back. So I don't know. I was kind of surprised that we saw the discipline that we saw. And I'm guessing that this was just, somewhat of a performative thing to be like, look, the officials are not out of control. Even though there's been more flags this year than I think in the past like 10 years or something

at this point in time. It's been crazy how many flags are. But it feels more performative. Like take a week off, take two weeks off, you can go, we'll come back, we'll make it seem like the officials are out of control. But it didn't seem that bad to me. I mean, yell an F you

to a player. That seems a little bit like you're on a power trend. Honestly, I feel like that's That's a risk, though, you're willing to take, right? Because there's nothing actually besides fines and rules restraining that player from really getting back at you, right? Yeah, but he's like on the side. He's like on the sideline there. He's not like up in his face or anything.

Like when you become an official, you know that people are going to complain about calls. You are at the highest level here with the most competitive people, you know, maybe in any sport. And yes, there's a line that they can cross. We've seen in the past if they're in your face, if they're making contact with you, then all bets are off, yell whatever you want. But that feels like personal to me. Like if it's like, you know, it's sort of like they are trained that if a player's yelling at you or a coach is very upset with a call, there is a way to handle that.

And I don't think that that's necessarily the way to handle that. So I thought that one actually was out of line where I'm like, well, what is it? I forget which official that was. I don't remember all these. Jeff Seaman. Okay. Yeah. I thought he was out of line.

I'm good with the punishment there. I'm with you on the Eric Wilson one. I couldn't stop laughing. Like, Wilson's like trying to help him up. And he's so mad at him. He's yelling at it almost like a dad yelling at his child or something. That's like, it was an accident. That's my reaction when like I'll be walking through the kitchen.

You know, like I just got something off the grill. And like the dog will come and clip my knees. I'm just like, you get out of here. Like that's what it was. I just thought that one was silly. Listen, the NFL is like made sportsman. a huge deal. And if you want coaches to follow it and players to follow it,

you also want officials to follow it. It is your workplace. You can't tell people bleep you at the workplace. The variable one, that's the one that I'm just like, I mean, he said it in his press conference. He's like, I have said that 87 times

since I've been a head coach. They got it because he was out of the box. You're not supposed to go past a certain point on the sideline. I think that was it. but the flag for that man, it wasn't, you're a bleepin idiot. It was, that's a bleep and terrible bleeping call. Just to me, that's par for the course. That's the thing.

This is like you can call holding on every snap. You could flag every coach 20 times a game for saying the F word about something. I just, to me, Billy, I think that we get down a little bit of a slippery slope if we're going to start throwing flags for that. Again, unless you're going to have a hardcore enforcement, right? like NBA coaches aren't supposed to go certain places, and they're constantly going. And if you cross half court or something, you're getting teed up.

If you want NFL coaches not to leave the box, then enforce it all the time. Don't let somebody sprint down to the goal line and call time out when they're not supposed to be down there. They've kind of had a lot of leeway. The only thing you ever see them get busted for is when an official will run into them, which I think we had that happen too.

Yeah. Right? It was, Eagles Rams, yeah. Yeah. And so I get that part of it. I just, Bill, if we're enforcing, you know, the, an F bomb is an immediate foul. Like, we're, this would be like if Simmons got the, like, the FCC pop down on them after listening to one pod.

I feel like, I feel like it's a little harsh. It was a little, it felt like a sensitive weekend, especially when, like, a coach is getting fined for doing the exact same thing and officials doing it in another game. It's kind of like, well, kind of, you know, a little bit of consistent here. Consist. See, I even think those are two different things than that. We don't have to spend 20 more minutes. But saying FU. is different than that's a terrible effing call.

Like, I actually think that that is a different thing to be doing. You know, like if the ref said, if you, the ref said, get the F back on the sideline or, you know, I think that is fair game, but just yelling FU to him multiple times. I would say, though, that is weird to me. From the official's point of view, it's like, that was a terrible call, this is my livelihood.

You're questioning my integrity now. This is beyond just an FU. This is worse than F. Well, like, if you said to your wife, not the either you guys you ever. Not that either you guys would ever do it. But if you said, where are my bleeping keys would come off differently than bleep you, where are my keys? It would just, it would hit.

I'm not testing that, Billy. You test that. Neither one. I'm good. Tom, let us know how it goes. I do lose my keys constantly. All right, we're back on Wednesday. I don't say that to my wife, just so we're abundantly clear on this.

back Wednesday looking ahead to week five appreciate you all being here watching and listening thanks Arjuna Chris the whole team behind the scenes

for Shield and Billy I'm Tom we'll see you 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present

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