The Ringer NFL Show - The Pats Finally Fall, Brady’s Future, the Unlucky Saints, and More From a Wild Weekend | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: January 6, 2020

After nine straight seasons, Tom Brady and the Patriots played in a wild-card game and lost to the Titans. Speculation has begun on whether or not this is the end of the Brady–Bill Belichick era (2:17). Next, we express disappointment over not predicting this Vikings performance, and express confusion over the refs’ refusal to call pass interference on the final play (33:20). Finally, we break down the Seahawks’ win over the Eagles and the wild Bills-Texans ending (43:20). Hosts: Robert Mays and Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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To the Ringar NFL show, I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark. Kevin, how you doing, buddy? I'm drunk on football right now. Explain yourself. Well, I've just, I mean, I haven't had a sip of alcohol all weekend, but I feel I just, I am, been bowled over by four really good games. Yeah, it's, it's been a fascinating wildcar weekend. I had the luxury.

So you were, I didn't get to watch the Bill's Texans game live. That was the, that was also drunk on football. So I was en route to Foxborough, which as you know, is, is an arduous journey. It's like the fourth Lord of the Rings movie to get down there for a football game. Yeah, you get to a point. If you drive either from Providence or. Boston, you get to a point in every drive where you're like, I'm never leaving this place. I'm going to have to just start a family here.

It's like the 1800s. I'm just going to just build a home right here, a domicile, and we'll set it up here. That's where you get to in about hour two of that commute. And not even that. It was when I was coming back. So Brady gets done with this press conference at maybe 110. And then I went back into the locker room. I went in the Titans locker room.

I go back up to the press box. It's 1.30. And then you do the eternal, okay, they don't want this until tomorrow morning. Do I write now or do I go back to the hotel and sleep for three hours, which is what I did. But even driving back to the hotel, you're driving up US1 and it takes a half hour longer than it's supposed to. So it's like it's a football game in Middle Earth. So that part was interesting. But then today was.

surprising. I mean, I think that both of us thought the Seahawks could win. The Viking Saints game is absolutely an outcome that neither of us predicted. So we'll get into all of that. But I want to start with the Titans Patriots game.

I wrote about this today. And you guys, you and I both have been around the Patriots in wins and losses many times in the playoffs over the last decade. Because covering the league the way that we do,

they're a fixture. Covering the Patriots, being around the Patriots, you can't avoid it because it's just what the NFL is. And especially in the last seven, eight years when we've been around the league.

And I was there when they lost the Eagles. I was in their locker room when they lost the Broncos and the AFC championship game in 2015. I have never seen a Patriots locker room and never listen. to the Patriots, their fixtures like they were last night. Even if we're overstating the fact that it might be the end of something, there was a

contemplative nature to guys like Devin McCordy, to guys like Matthew Slater, even to people like Brady that I've just never, ever heard before. I, it was, I'm really glad I was there because it was a potentially historic. Rick evening. Historic. Okay. So I think that there's a reason that there was that feeling. And it's pretty obvious, which is that there are a lot of guys who, including the three guys

who named who are four agents, McCordy, Brady, Matthew Slater, Kyle Van Nuoy, Jamie Collins, Ted Carras, Alan Roberts, guys like that who are part of contributing this year in a lot of different ways. And this year and beyond. Yeah, I mean, some of them have been there for a decade. Some of them, you know, Matthew Slater and, you know, gives a lot of emotional speeches. Devin McCordy is Devin McCordy. People thought McCordy was going to retire after the Super Bowl last year.

There were some rumblings about that. So is this the end of something? Yeah, but I don't know. I don't think it's the end of the Patriots. I think that they will bring some of those guys back. And now it just comes to what does that retooling look like? What do they, what kind of, how do they want to spend their resources? Do they want to match someone for a Kyle Van Nuoy?

Do they want to match someone when Jamie Collins gets a little bit more expensive? There's going to be change in some regard, and some of the core will be cycled out. That's why I think there was a little bit. I mean, think about how many times the Patriots have turned over the roster over and over again. Their core has changed. Their core actually has been consistent for the past maybe half decade. That's changing this winter, and maybe that's why you hear some more contemplation in the press, comments is last night.

Absolutely. And I think with all those guys, that that's a huge part of it. You know, when they lost to the Eagles a couple years ago, everyone was coming back. You know, this was a team that their greatness was clear and it was inevitable. So there wasn't that kind of pondering of mortality that you saw last night. But I think with, you know, I think McCordy being a free agent is, it's not Brady, obviously, but it's just such a different dynamic than it has been when they've lost in the past or when they've been in this situation in the past.

Like, Brady is Brady. We'll get to that in a second. But on the defensive side, Devin McCordy has been the face of that franchise for the last 10 years. And him, not even with a face, but the voice. And I think that when you saw him kind of going through those things in his mind last night,

it's unlike anything I've seen from him and unlike anything I've seen from a Patriots defender in a long time. So that being said, part of me, as you'd been at the game yesterday instead of me. Okay. Because you just have this with when it comes to Brady and Belichick, uh-huh.

The inertia of it all takes over for me sometimes where like I'm sitting there last night and even as I watched them both kind of go through whatever the kabuki dances of, you know, this, you know, we'll figure out the future later, da-da-da. In my mind, I'm just like, they'll be back. they're going to run this back. It's so hard for me not to imagine. And even as I was sitting there watching the game, I was sitting there with Jenny Varentis and Peter King.

And, you know, when they got the ball back at 444, I was like, they're going to win. Like, it's just, they're going to do this. They're going to do it. And I think you have a really good sense of the grandiose nature of what Brady is. And when you watched that game last night and when you watched him walk off, what sort of sense did you get? Because for me, it was just like,

we're going to make a lot of this, but they're going to run it back one more time. Do you think that or no? So I think that there's a lot of smoke about Brady potentially... And there was literally a fog over the field last night, which helped a lot of writers do some imagery, by the way. Right. And so I think there's a lot of smoke,

but I also think that with the Patriots, the default is them figuring it out. Right. And that's sort of, and that's why I think a lot of smart people have said a mixture of, who knows what the future holds, but also the main prediction seems to be one more year in New England. That would, that would be my guess. If you put money on it, that's what you put money on, right? There's a lot of reasons for it.

But one of those things is where's he going to go? What makes sense? You know, we were just talking about this and Slack. See, you and I think differently about this. Okay, we were just talking about this in Slack, actually. And it was funny to me because I was thinking about this. And, you know, okay, is he really want to go play for the Chargers in front of 40,000 people? Does he really want to go to a team that isn't, doesn't have, you know, a ton of weapons or whatever?

Does he really want to go to Indianapolis and do that whole thing, which is a good team that maybe lacks a quarterback in that regard? I don't think so. I mean, can you throw out a candidate that makes sense that's going to give him a lot of money? is going to give him the weapons he needs your team, the Chicago Bears? It's just, so here's, that's a knee-jerk reaction. Okay. And I think that if you think about the practical realities of it and the money and everything else, it's not super likely.

But as I kind of sat and thought about it this morning, I was going through it. I wrote about this today, just kind of being there for what seems like the end and thinking about what the options might be if he doesn't play in a wing. And think about the quarterback decisions that have been made in the NFL over the last five years. and think about the terrible thought processes behind them. He's Tom fucking Brady. And I don't know how good Tom Brady is anymore, but he's not bad.

He was an okay quarterback this year. And for a team that either lacks a capable quarterback, wants a stabilizing factor for a young team, and wants to sell tickets, or wants to just invigorate a fan base, whatever, it only takes one, man. And I absolutely think there will be one. I don't know if it's coming out obviously to us right now,

but I 100% think if he leaves, there will be a team that sits there and says, the cost benefit of giving him $30 million is so, so worth it to us. Okay. He's going to be 43 years old next training camp. Yes. Listen, I hear you on all of this. Let's go with this hypothetical situation.

you're Ryan Pace and the Bears. You think you have a defense that can win a championship in the right situation. It's not about Ryan Pace. Okay. What is it about? It's about Virginia McCaskey. Okay. This is an ownership choice.

An ownership group will sit there and say, let's sign Tom Brady. This happens at the highest levels for the wrong reasons. This is not a practical decision. I think that's the way to look at. it's not about team building and this is our point in their trajectory and all of that. It's somebody who signs the checks being like, oh, we can get Tom Brady? Fuck yeah. I don't think that this is going to happen.

I think that this, I think he's going to return to the New England Patriots. But my question is. I think so too. Okay. Because I think that Robert Kraft makes that choice. Right. I was going to say is that Robert Kraft is in the same boat as all of these owners just we can go get Tom Brady.

I mean, listen, I think there's a little bit of projection. I think that there's still, listen, Tom Brady is still a lot better than a lot of quarterbacks, but I don't think he's Tom effing Brady, as you put it anymore, is that he is no longer so great

that he can make anything happen with any cast of characters, right? And that's sort of what we saw. That was the failure of this game on Saturday night. We'll talk about that, but this cast of characters was particularly bad. It was particularly bad, but they scored 14 points.

He threw a pick six at the end. Listen, I think Tom Brady is still a really, very good, really good quarterback. I think Tom Brady still had the capability if there was a couple of breaks here and there to win the Super Bowl this calendar year, right? It didn't happen. I think Tom Brady is a top 15 quarterback. That's where I am to. That's where I am too. And that is an attractive proposition in a league where a top 15 quarterback with the other factors in play can win you a fucking Super Bowl.

I don't, my, my problem here is that you, the aging curve is so unprecedented. We have no idea what a 43 year old quarterback with Tom Brady's incredible aging curve. We don't know how that ages, you know, like the whole thing about he can play to his 46, whatever is based on a lot of actually baseball stuff, the Tom House Regiment and all that stuff that's been written about is sort of they know how the arm can hold up and how long that he can go. So there's a, listen, man, we've seen. this. Like, think about

we've seen it with what. No quarterback has ever slowly declined at this age. That's what I'm talking about. It's always a cliff and he hasn't reached the cliff yet. But he's going to be an one day.

And one day you're going to be the team that gave him $30 million to win a Super Bowl. I wouldn't do it. Okay. But I absolutely think someone will. Yeah, but that's that someone might also someone who is desperate to have Tom Brady on their team might also be Robert Kraft.

I think that's the most reliable outcome. I absolutely do. But we do this way too often. We're like, how is this practical? Is this smart? Da-da-da-da. And especially with that position, there have been way more frivolous decisions based on way less than signing Tom Brady before he's done.

I understand that. But what I'm saying is it's not about the Spanos family going out and saying here, $30 million or Stephen Ross. I know someone like that who needs to fix something, right? It's not about that offering that money, by the way. We'll talk about that in a second. I think that Tom Brady, if he looks at the freaking charger situation and there is, I would say, from an off-of-field standpoint, there is no.

grimmer situation than Los Angeles Chargers. Playing in a half-filled stadium in a city that people just don't even know you're here. Like, it is what?

They sold 25,000 season tickets, something like that so far in the new stadium. Like, does Tom Brady really want to end his career there? That's all. I'm not saying it's not,

it's not a, I think the answer to that is no. Right. That's what I'm saying. It's not a question of someone giving him a godfather offer. I think there will be owners who,

doing that. It's a question of whether or not Tom Brady's going to look at these offers and say, this is something I'd like to do. I'd rather just run it back with New England with the greatest coach of all time with a infrastructure I'm familiar with and all that stuff. I think that that makes more sense to me than a let's go get an extra $15 million and play in the grimmest situation on earth. Kevin, I think you're thinking about this the wrong way. I think you're viewing this as he gets to make this decision. And I don't. don't know if that's true. You think that the Patriots would move on from him with no or would go out and get another

quarterback to replace him in free agency in two months? I think if you're up to Bill Belichick, then yes. Right, but it's never, we know over the last five, six years, it's not everything has been up to Bill Belichick as far as that goes. And I, again, we said this five times over this conversation. He absolutely could be back. Kraft could sit there and say like, absolutely not.

Like Tom Brady is the quarterback as long as he wants to be. And that is a conversation that I'm sure will happen between Kraft and Belichick over the next couple months. But in the chance that Belichick is the leading voice in the room, I don't find it shocking at all. The Belichick would say, I want to build a different way. Let's try something else.

Would you? I'm in agreement with you in the macro sense, but I think that I think it's totally possible that he could draft someone or bring someone in, draft someone in the second round and start the process of building. What I would be surprised by is if they tell Tom, they pull basically what teams do all the time with their old veterans, like what the Packers do with Clay Matthews, which is, hey, we're moving on. I would be surprised if they said, hey, we're moving on to Tom Brady and then replaced him with another veteran. Andy Dalton. Yeah. That kind of thing.

I understand. I understand that. I'd be very surprised if they did that specific thing. I would not be surprised if they went out and drafted a quarterback. And, you know, they're picking one. J one hurts. They're picking 23rd right now in the draft. They, I wouldn't be surprised if they took a flyer or maybe traded up 10 picks,

even though Belichick doesn't love to do that. I wouldn't be surprised if they start the process of replacing Tom Brady. If they still had Jimmy Garapolo, this is a completely different timeline. If they still had Jacoby Brissette, it's possible this is a different timeline. Isn't the Garoppolo thing so fascinating right now? It is. It's the top 10. What If?

It's the sliding doors ripple effect elements of all of that are so. I was thinking about a lot last night. I was driving back from the game and I was listening to Seth Wickersham, talked to Bill and Rusillo. And it was never feasible just because, you know, we've talked about this before so many times about how the hierarchy of the Patriots locker room is a sacred thing. No one's making more than Brady.

There's no way to financially retain Garoppolo. in any way that made sense. But now it's one of those things where like, God, I wonder what they would have done if Bill had all the say and if it were up to him to build the entire roster. And it, I don't know, man.

Again, I tend to agree with you because I think that the alternatives aren't attractive. You know, it's, I, I ascribe this ego to Belichick, but it's, it often comes from the jokes You know, like when he got to do what he did with Garapolo and Brissette, I do think there's a part of Bill Belichick that enjoyed that. But I also, you know, maybe I'm overstating it.

Maybe it's like, ha, ha, like if Belichick had to play Wes Welker at quarterback, he'd be so much happier. I don't know how real that really is. But I do understand. I also think that if Belichick had Lamar Jackson right now. I think he'd enjoy it. And I think that he would relish the opportunity to try something like that. But I don't know how much he would relish the opportunity to try something like that. When that, like you just said, that chance wasn't in hand.

And he had the alternative sitting right in front of him. The fact that he doesn't, I think that's why the Brady return, if I had to put money on it, it makes the most sense to it. I think in the absence of someone like Tom Brady, he would like to have, someone where there's there's you know you're coming up a different game plan for i think they you know when tim tibu was coming out of college he would always talk about the belichick would always talk about you know the legacy of the single wing and all of the running stuff and the running and passing and the jump pass he would he would love that shit right but i think that but he had

tim tibo and he cut him because tip tibou is not nearly as good as tom brady and i think that belichick is smart and part of being smart is hey it would be really kind of a fun little project to come up with the running quarterback offense, but you know what I'd rather do? I'd rather go to the Super Bowl every year. And I think that that's, that kind of trumps all, right? Agreed. And by the way, I do want to, my favorite butterfly effect of the entire, it's really concentrating the NFC right now.

But do you know, are you aware of who sack Drew Brees that tore his labrum and got him on the Saints? No. Current GM of the San Francisco 49ers. Also, that's a final. That's the sliding door. for everything is the current GM of the 49ers, Sack and Drew Brees, which then sent Nick Saban back to college. It's just that that's it right there. That's the inflection

point for everything. Anyway, can we talk about the game real quick? We absolutely can. I wrote about this today a little bit and outside of just kind of the auspice of is this the end, which I think was the biggest thing to take away from it. But it really did feel like in so many ways the Titans out Patriots the Patriots. Is that the sense that you got while watching it? No, I mean, I think it was a disjointed game. I mean, I think that I saw the stat that Patriots had 71 pass yards, which is the fewest by any team in a playoff win since the time the Ravens beat the Patriots in 2009,

which was the last time the Patriots didn't get the buy, which is a very funny situation. So the Patriots defense did their job in a way. Obviously, they didn't have any, you know, crazy pick sixes. or anything. They could have won the Titans the game. Excuse me, but won the Patriots the game. They didn't do it good enough job stopping Derek Henry,

but I don't think really anybody can do a great job stopping Derek Henry right now. This to me comes down to, it was a personnel problem. It was Tom Brady not having enough weapons. It was the Titans having a nice game plan. It was Mike Rable turning into Dr. Strange and draining a minute off the clock and creating a time, a time loophole.

It was so amazing that he like, he, He Belichick to Belichick in like the most important moment. I mean, this was, I kind of feel having watched it, I thought the Patriots are going to lose next week. Having watched it, it is a game where I regret not seeing this coming because everything the way it played out

seems so obvious as it was happening. So it's the reason I say that the Titans out Patriots, the Patriots, is that you and I have watched so many Patriots, games together. You know, I remember sitting there and watching the Falcon Super Bowl with you. Yeah. And it just, there's so many moments, literally where we've been sitting next to each other, where them finding away feels inevitable.

Yeah. And that's what it felt like last night to a certain degree. You know, it's when they got the ball back with 444, I looked at Jenny Ferretis, and I was just like, they're winning this game, 17, 16. It's over. Or 1614. They're doing this. Just because we've seen that movie so many times.

And they didn't have it. And I think the personnel thing is a really good point to make. You know, watching McDaniels just dig into the bag of tricks last night was amazing. You know, they're doing so many like jet sweeps and wide receiver handoffs. They're running like split back throws to Rex Burkhead. like, you know, they're like, McDaniels was fucking Bill Walsh in like 1986.

It was just, they were doing so many things to be like, all right, we're going to manufacture this win. But we've watched the manufacturer so many wins. And that's why I just expected it to happen, even when they don't have the juice. Devin McCordy yesterday, I asked him, I said, you guys have done this

so many times. When you don't do it, like, are you surprised? Like, is it a weird thing to kind of process on your end when it doesn't happen? And he said that in a way, yes, but it's also one of those things where we view the game as this collection of moments and you need to win the moments. And they have so many times and they didn't last night. And watching them not do that and watching the Titans be able to manufacture those moments

in the way the Patriots did, it was a little bit disorienting, often surprising, and in the end, just something that it was difficult to comprehend until the game was actually over. If you've never seen the departed, skip ahead 15 seconds.

Didn't this feel a little bit? Departed spoilers coming. Didn't this, I don't know why you would have not seen it, but regardless, maybe skip ahead another 15 seconds because we've been talking about it. This is preceding our 20-minute Dunker,

conversation. It's going to come after this game. So doesn't this kind of feel like just DiCaprio just getting shot in the elevator with no warning and no drama? It's just like we were so... Or if you saw it and cut gems recently,

it's the same kind of deal. Oh, now you can't spoil that. No one... I didn't say what happened. Oh my God. All right. So, uh, let's start.

Let's focus on the 14 year old movie for a second. Decaprio gets off the elevator, right? And we were so focused on how are they going to defend Kansas City and Mahomes. How are they going to play Lamar a second time? I remember when I was there, when I was talking to people around there a couple weeks ago, everyone was like, man, can't wait to see Belichick, you know, second time through the order, so to speak, against those two quarterbacks and see how that goes.

And we don't get to see that now. And from a football kind of dork perspective, I hate it. but from a, I enjoy Ryan Tannahill and Derek Henry, uh, inexplicably creating one of the hottest offenses in football, um, or one of the hottest teams in football, rather, because they, that's everyone passing yards yesterday. Um, I, I, I am excited about this Titans run. It was so funny to kind of watch it because, you know,

okay, we've discussed this so, so many times. And I don't want to re-legislate the running back value conversation. But, watching Derek Henry last night was kind of a reminder of what the playoffs are in the sense that they're individual games that don't often have anything to do with the league at large and trends and what matters. It's like, what do we need to do to win today? And watching Derek Henry run the ball 35 times and grind that game out,

spoke to his value and spoke to like what a running back that is built like that can be at this point in the calendar. Would I give Derek Henry a contract extension? Absolutely not. But in that moment... I'd give him an extension. Oh, sure. But I wouldn't give him a big money extension.

I wouldn't give him $70 million. Absolutely. I was sitting there last night. We were waiting for the elevator. And I was standing next to Chris Johnson. And I was, I was, he was, was there with the Titans ownership group. And I looked at him and I was like, you probably love this tonight.

And he goes, they ran the ball, man. And I was like, yeah, I know. I'm like, you probably love this. And so we started talking. And I was like, I was talking to him by the things I'd rather do instead of tackling Derek Henry. And it, it's just a reminder. Like, I think that you've always been fascinated by this.

The way the Patriots compartmentalize the playoffs and what these games are to them, it's not about league-wide trends or these big sweeping. movements. It's about for four quarters and three hours, what do we have to do to win the game? And I think Derek Henry in certain situations gives you an advantage to doing that because no one wants to tackle him when it's 35 degrees and it's spitting rain. And it's just, it's an unpleasant place to be. There's a lot of guys right now who are just, and I would put actually Lamar Jackson and this as well. But anecdotally,

the NFL is getting just worse at tackling. And I have, there's not a ton of data about that, but it's just, you know, but talking to players, all that stuff,

talking to coaches. And the existence of guys like George Kittle and the existence of guys like Derek Henry, they are exploiting this over and over and over and just running people

over or running past people or running out of their grips. And it is, it is a very fun thing to see. It is aesthetically pleasing to see guys like that own defenders over and over again. I think the I think the defenders are more apprehensive now than they would have been 20 years ago.

Without a doubt. Without a doubt. And I think that's part of what it is. And with the Ravens, it's part of like the structure of the offense. I was there last week talking to a lot of guys on that offense and surprisingly most of the offensive linemen and just talking about kind of playing in that offense and just how flat-footed you see guys. But I also think that

the Hall of Fame finalists came out this week. Steve Atwater couldn't play football right now just because of the way the league is constructed. And I think that that has created a world where defenders aren't moving as fast and without reckless abandon. And I think it's given an opportunity for guys who want to be tone-setters offensively,

whether it's Lamar Jackson, George Kittle, Derek Henry, all of those guys. All right, quickly, first impressions on Titans at Ravens. Come old school football. I think the Ravens are the best team. I do, do. I just, I think that game is fun. I, part of me is upset.

We're not getting Patriots Ravens because. Well, that would be next week. It would be two weeks now anyway. Yeah, but I just, I love when a team, like, if the Bulls hadn't had to beat the Pistons on their way of the first title, it would have felt cheaper. If that makes sense, I love when a team has to knock off the king to get where they're going. And I would have loved if the Patriots had to, if the Ravens had to beat the Patriots to win a title.

But at the same time, I love watching this Titans team. I think that it was a disgusting night last night. I think the Titans offense will look better against teams that aren't the Patriots and conditions that aren't what was going on last night in Foxborough. but I don't know. It's going to be a fun game. I think the Ravens win because they're the best team, but I like watching this Titans team,

and I'll be excited to watch them again. Yeah, I think it's like 27 to 17 kind of thing. I think so too. And it was so funny to kind of, the Patriots last night, and I think that people watch that game, and they'll say, God, Derek Henry just destroyed them.

And he did. You know, he had 205, 12 yards. The Titans scored 14 points. The Titans, excuse me, the Patriots, as they did against the Rams last year, and as they've done against other teams that are play action heavy, they slow play those actions. They just sit there and say, we're going to dare you to run the ball down our throats and have that be how you beat us.

And it's really hard to win a football game in 2019, that. It just is. Even as Derek Kennedy piles up 205 total yards, they still got by by the skin of their teeth. So I don't, we'll see if the Ravens have a similar game plan. Baltimore has a structure like New England, where if they want to play man behind stuff and just have some flexibility in their front seven, they absolutely can. So I think the Ravens do win because on both sides of the ball, they're better. But it's a game I'm looking forward to. It's not as if, you know, the Titans are a team like, eh, you know, the Titans won. They're going to get blown out.

I have no interest in watching them. This is a team I'm glad they made the playoffs. And it's still a game I'm interested in watching. Playoffs are good. NFL playoffs are good. Do you have enough life insurance? It's this thing we all know we need, but keep putting off because it sounds like a pain to deal with. Ladder has made getting life insurance easy.

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As we get to the rest of these games, you know, you and I have discussed this a lot on the show in the sense that it's really difficult to win a Super Bowl when you're not one of the top teams. When you don't have buys, when you don't have home field advantage, we have to play three games. But the Titans include this. really did seem like the weekend of the underdog in the playoffs like we haven't seen in a long time.

And that started with the Minnesota Vikings today in New Orleans. That is undeniably the most surprising outcome of the weekend to me. When you're thinking about that game, what are your takeaways? So we talked last week. We went around on it. You thought the same for the best team in the NFC. I disagreed. having said that, I did not think they were going to lose to the Minnesota Vikings.

I didn't think so either. Well, right. This was an incredible game. And I'm not really sure what to think of it, if that makes sense. Like, my idea of how good Taysam Hill can be has been completely turned on its head, which I did not expect to be happening. My idea of what Drew Brees is right now has been turned on its head. there were things that just contradicted themselves within the game. I mean, I'll give an example.

I thought that some of the fourth quarter play calling from the Vikings was just abysmal. And they were playing scared. And I was ready to just get my pitchforks out for the Vikings. And then, of course, they have some overtime plays that lead to that Kirk Cousins dime that ultimately wins them the game. So I think that the Vikings played as good a game as they could. We probably, it's almost like the Titans then, we probably should have seen this coming, that it would be closer, just in the sense that Mike Zimmer is a really good defensive coach

with a lot of defensive talent. I mean, listen, did we both pick the Vikings to make the Super Bowl last year? I did. It doesn't matter. I don't think I did. Okay, it doesn't matter. But I've, one of the things that...

I picked the Rams to make the Super Bowl last year. I picked the Patriots Rams to Super Bowl last year. Congratulations. Thanks, buddy. I picked them to make the Super Bowl of Vikings last year. And this is something that we keep coming around to where I feel like we're always, a year too early on the hype. I feel like we're always, and maybe that's a lesson of the Browns

thing when unfortunately we'll ever find out because the Browns have eaten the chess pieces is like to say here. But I think that this team still had a lot of talent. I think Kirk Cousins is a much better quarterback than the memes have made him out to be. And I think that I am this is a pro-Curcousins podcast, by the way. This is. And so I think that generally, I'm disappointed for not seeing a closer game coming. I will say that the fact that the NFL had an opportunity to have the makeup call of all makeup calls and call P. OPI on Kyle Rudolph at the end there. That was fascinating. I'm actually surprised they didn't do it. Just to like write the karmic like calculus. Isn't that how this ends? Sean Peyton

spends a year getting the, it spends a spring getting the rules changed. And then everybody hates the rules. The rules just create these weird log jams. that everyone just is like, what the hell is this? And then at the end of everything, it comes down to a passenger call in the end zone against a team that two years ago propelled, had a miracle that propelled Sean Payton out of the playoffs and then it Vikings the next round in Minnesota.

And they're playing two years later in the same venue that the Rams got away with one last year. And there's a controversial PI call that is challengeable and the refs do not throw the full. flag upon review. And then Al Ravaron says there was there was contact but didn't rise to be a foul. That's that is there's something strangely poetic about all of this. You saying that you thought the game would be closer. It's I was on with I did Minnesota radio with my friend Matt Collar on the score north on I think it was Thursday. And I'm just like,

I was like pacing in Fell's Point in Baltimore while I just walked. walking around outside. And he was, you know, I think that when you get to a certain point with a coaching staff, with a roster that has been stagnant for a little while, there's a restlessness among people who cover the team, among people who root for the team, all that stuff. And I think one of the questions was like, can this Vikings team beat the Saints? And it was like, yes. Like, absolutely they can.

I think the Saints are awesome, and I still do. But I also think that the Vikings and their peaks this year have been in line with anything any other team has done. You know, the reason that I believed in the Saints and the reason I said I thought they were the best team in the NFC, which I don't necessarily think is wrong. I kind of still do is the individual talent they have. But the Vikings have similarly impressive talent. And that was what that was so interesting today was watching those players on the Vikings tap into them, their greatness and shine in individual moments. You know, DeNeil Hunter had big plays.

You know, Anthony Harris, the safety, had an amazing season. Then he had that big pick on a throw where I honestly, I'm going to talk to like some quarterback people tomorrow as I like kind of sit back and think about what I'm writing, about what Breeze saw in that moment, I have no idea what he was thinking, throwing that ball. Because it just seemed like with the way that they were rotating,

it was absolutely single high, and he still threw it anyway to the middle of the field? I'm so curious what that was, and I'm sure that there's an answer as to why it happened. Anyway, Anthony Harris had an amazing year. Eric Kendrick's made plays today.

Daniel Hunter made plays against Ryan Ramchick today. You know, outside, inside. Everson Griffin, who had an excellent season, they use inside on certain matchups to gain stuff. And the best player on the field for the Minnesota Vikings today was a guy that we've watched be amazing for years. It was Adam Thielen.

I mean, healthy back, he just snapping guys off at the top of routes, getting open against Marshawn Latimore consistently. This is a team with a ton of talent that didn't necessarily, underachieve with that talent this year. They were a good team. They were dangerous. The only reason I didn't think they were going to win on Wildcar weekend is because I thought the Saints were an elite championship caliber team.

So watching what the Vikings did today and seeing them win this game, they 100% could go to San Francisco next week and win. They absolutely could. I'm not sure about that. I think they could. They could in the sense that... I don't think they will. But like, this is what I want to talk about.

I think what happened today, and we discussed this a little bit last week when we were talking about seatings and everything else. I think this year has a better chance to produce a wild card dark horse than in years past because a lot of the times

there was a clear divide between the teams that had to buy and the teams that had to play in the wild card round. And I don't. don't know if that divide is as stark this season, especially in the NFC. All right. Let's play a bit of a game here.

Vikings at 49ers. Seahawks at Packers. Titans at Ravens. Texans as Chiefs. Who has? It's the NFC teams. It's the only the NFC teams. Okay.

So you don't think it's the year of the wild card in the AFC. You don't think the Titans are going to have? Absolutely not. Because I do think that the difference between those teams is, is Stark in the AFC. I think the Ravens are definitively better than the Titans and I think the Chiefs are definitively better than the Texas. I tend to agree with that. I also think the Titans were just engineered to beat the Patriots.

I kind of feel I was working on this last night. I just never tweeted out. I had Stephen Ross in sort of an inside man bit where he's just, he's been living in a bank for a year and he placed Ryan, he replaced Ryan Tannihill in Tennessee, and then he got Ryan Fitzpatrick in Miami, and they were just engineering it towards this. Because the Miami Dolphins deserve a banner for the Tanna Hill and Fitzpatrick Alleyoop

that got the Patriots out of the playoffs. So when you tweet, how long do you workshop those? Like 90 seconds. That's impressive to me. Because they seem like very well formulated. They usually just come to me. And there's usually a reason I'm doing it. So like I had one like the I had a Belichick Antonio Brown tweet.

I know it's didn't. You should keep that in the sheath, my man. No, no, no. It was when he signed it and it got like 10,000 retreats. And I was like, someone I, a writer I really, really, really respect. A writer I really, really, really respect from the New Yorker. Just follow me. And I was like, man, I follow me. I got to be really good. Was it David Grant? I got to be really good. And so then I was like, I'm just going to come up with a fire tweet. And then I tweeted that. And then that's how it happened. Otherwise, I wouldn't have tweeted anything. It's always. Grant also follows me. It's, it is the second most puzzling follow I have. Who's number one? David Simon. Oh, wow.

Yes. I asked him for Baltimore restaurant recommendations last week. It's one of the coolest things I've ever gotten to do in my entire life. That's amazing. Yeah. It's really cool. It's so random. All right.

Let's get to the second team that, a wildcar team that may have a chance. And that's the Seattle Seahawks. It, you know, it's one of those games where you watch the Eagles over the last few weeks. Now, we've discussed this. They're a team that we believe in, organizationally, structurally, all that stuff. But is anything surprising that they lost the wildcard game 17 to 9 tonight? It just seems like that was the end-all be-all for this team. It's just like, this was their fate.

I think the way they lost it was really interesting in the sense that, in the sense that there's for me to get that close to the goal line a handful of times to be within punching distance or touching distance and not get there to have Josh McCown playing quarterback I mean some of the details of this game

were strange to me unexpected but if you told me the 179 final score before the game I said that sounds about right I also I mean shout out to DK MacCaf that was amazing yeah I mean it's just the Josh McCown thing is obviously a huge part of it. But it's, it just feels like that's where this Eagles season went.

You know, it's just like, next guy up, this is how it's going to go. I don't know. The fact that the Seahawks needed a backup quarterback to get by, the fact that their running backs average 1.1 and 1.2 yards per carry today. And Russell Wilson had 45 of their 64 rushing yards. I don't know if the Seahawks. are good, but I also don't know if the Packers are good. So Seattle going on the road and playing that team, it just, I absolutely think they can win next week. I agree with that only because, I mean, we've seen so many, Pete Carroll, unbeknownst to

you, is a really good coach. And we've seen so, stop, stop, stop. I'm not taking this laying down. No, absolutely not. All right. So we've seen, you hate them. And so you've seen, we've seen so many weird Seahawks games where, you know, the example I give is when they go into Carolina five years ago and they just get completely waxed

in the first half and then they get essentially within touching distance of tying the game up. I think they almost came back from 31 down. It was that kind of thing. And we've seen, I know I joke about this, but they don't play normal games. And I think that part of that is playing up to a good level of competition and playing down to a poor level of competition. So I think that they have the capability with Russell Wilson, with, you know, deep passing God, D.K. McCaff with that defense, which still has a lot of talent on it. And the talent in the right places.

Yeah. And Gedevian Clownie. Jevon Claney was really up for tonight. Yes. It's, yeah, I'm with you. You know what I haven't heard lately is the Texans fans who were chirping at me that. the Texans are better without Chedavian Clowny, which was happening as recently as last month.

We'll get to the Texas game in a second. So I wrote about this today when I wrote about the Patriots in the sense that New England views playoff games as a series of moments. I may have said this earlier in the show. It seems like six hours ago. And the Patriots pry themselves on being able to win enough of the moments. And it feels like we're in that place with this. Seahawks where if they beat the Packers, which again, I 100% think they can, then they set themselves

up for a rematch with the Niners in the NFC championship game. And we just saw that movie without Clowny and they almost won. They were six inches from winning that game. I don't know how good the Seahawks are, but it doesn't matter anymore in the same way that When the Patriots have won Super Bowls in the past, it's one, I don't know how good the Patriots are. Who cares? It is so within reach right now

because you can build the avenue and you can figure out the moments that get them there. And that's where I am with Seattle. I just, one win over a Packers team, and I will be at that game on next Sunday, one win over that team opens up a world of possibilities and we've seen what they can do against San Francisco.

If you get to the Super Bowl, who the hell knows? Anything is on the table. I still think that San Francisco is the best team in the NFC. And that was only emboldened today when you see a team like the Saints. We had that argument last week. I am not sold at all on Green Bay. Right now, if you had to guess who's going to win the Seattle Green Bay game, what would you guess? Green Bay.

I think it's ugly. I think Green Bay's defense is playing really. well right now. I think, I think Zadaria Smith is one of the 10 best players in football in this moment. I think it's a, it's a 1310 ugly game that can go either way. Here's what's happening. It's 20 to 14. There's 47 seconds left.

And Russell Wilson has something inexplicable? No, he has the ball in the 19-yard line. They're in a weird heavy formation. No one can figure it out. And then something happens. I don't know what happens, but something happens right after that. It is that kind of game where some. for some reason the Seahawks are still in it.

They're driving to win. They're too close for comfort and then something massive happens. Whether that's a D.K. Mekap touchdown, a pick, a strip sack. Something happens. My guess is the Seahawks win that game. Very close.

I think the Packers win that game. They're at home. And I also feel like for all the Aaron Rogers' existential dread that's kind of come in the last month or so, like, you know, what's happening with Aaron Rogers? Is this it? Da, da, da, da.

the Packers can line up and just beat the shit out of you if they want to. Is there any quarterback? Is there any, is it just Lamar Jackson is the only quarterback where there's not existential dread everywhere? I think that with Rogers, there's kind of a, you know, is this it? Is he done? Is he Aaron Rogers anymore? Dada, da, da, da.

And like that, that Lions game was a weird game that is taking shots down the field. And we can have an extended Aaron Rogers conversation. later when the Packers are more relevant to our conversation. But I still feel like if you watch that Giants game, for example, and you watch the throws, excuse me, the Vikings game, the Vikings game where their passing game wasn't great. But if you're watching the throws in the middle of the field that he's just ripping, the slants, everything else, it's just, I still think that team is built to win right now

because if we're talking about the playoffs, is a series of moments. Their defense is playing great. Zadaria Smith is dominant player right now. They have talent on that side of the ball. They have a deep, flexible secondary. And it's a matter of four or five throws.

And I still think he's capable of making those four or five throws. His arm is still there. And the Rogers kind of discourse is something I want to legislate eventually on this show, but I don't want to do it now. And we talked about a little bit last when we were talking about McCarthy and how I think it's difficult to coach Rogers right now because he wants to exist outside of whatever the structure of the offense is and kind of be Aaron Rogers. And that's a detriment to your offense on a play-to-play basis.

But if you're trying to win a championship, I do think it's a way to do it because he's going to make a couple throws that make you sit there and say, what, just happened. And that's what the playoffs are. And I still think that's on the table for them. So I will say this. Aaron Rogers has dead cap of $39 million next year, 31 in 20.

Aaron Rogers is going to be the Packers quarterback next season. 59 this year. You know what is? No, that's what I'm saying. But I'm saying that is this the end situation or existential dread is completely different than the conversation in New England or some of these other places.

It's more about like is Aaron Rogers, an elite quarterback anymore. That's what I'm saying. I just want to say this out loud. I just want to say this out loud. Do you know what his dead cap? Do you know what his dead cap was in 2018? It was $80 million.

They gave him. Good thing they didn't cut him. It's one of those things where I don't understand how the Packers money works because they don't have an owner. So their financial kind of realities are a little bit murkier than they are with other teams. If you look at Aaron Rogers' contrast, structure and the money they gave him in year one.

66 million, 66.9 million. In cash, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the yearly cash in 2018. It's like, I don't know how the Packers make their money, but they make a lot of it. It's really, really bizarre. Yeah. All right. Okay, next.

Let's get to, which I assume, in your opinion, is the greatest game in the history of the National Football League. My God. So, I'm going to go. back and watch it in full, when I say in full, the truncated version tomorrow morning, because I couldn't watch it

because I was driving to Foxborough. But what I saw, I saw a lot of the first half and I saw the fourth quarter. And I just don't know anything about how good the Texans are. No. I don't think they're very good.

Is that, is that right? Sure. That appears to be correct. So the ringer is Danny Hyfe. He does a great job, has a very nice list. By the way, shout out to Haifitz. He's been killing it over the last couple of months.

I looked at our website. He's got like seven things up right now. To be 20, how old was Hyphus? 25. Something like that, yeah. To be 25 years old and have that sort of juice, I'm very envious of him. All right. So I, I almost fell asleep yesterday at the wheel,

driving back from Foxborough at 2 a.m. Hyfitz has a blog up ranking the top, I believe, 11 craziest things to happen to Josh Allen in this game. And it's a good primer because What's number one? I believe it is. I actually know what it is.

It's he ran 20 yards is the title. He ran 20 yards and then tossed the ball laterally to nobody. Oh, that, okay. So that should be number one. There was also Alan. It was a lateral to someone. Alan takes a 19 yard loss on 4th and 27.

And Alan is called for intentional grounding, taking the bills at a field goal range, are some of the highlights. There were some more... The jump ball to the fullback has to be in the top five. Into double coverage. Yes.

It has to be in the top five. It was not intercepted, which is an indictment. No, it was not. Indictment of everybody. Everybody came away from that play looking awful. Here's what I'll say

about the Houston Texans. Bill O'Brien got more power this year. He's now the coach and the general manager. The person who should have that power is Deshawn Watson. Deshawn Watson did not play an elite game yesterday,

but what I'll say is that Deshawn Watson did what great quarterbacks do, which he saved everyone's butts. He saved Bill O'Brien's butt. He saved Bill O'Brien, the GM's, but this is not a team that should win a playoff game. And they almost didn't win a playoff game. And they almost lost to Josh Allen. And if Deshawn Watson hadn't, you know, there were a lot of people who pointed out what that Deshawn Watson almost sack looked like versus the fact that he turned that

into a dime that won them the game and got them down into the five-yard line and then led to the end of the game, right? That was an amazing play. And he's an amazing player. And his ability to rise above his circumstance will not stop being impressive. That was an awesome performance from him. And I worry when I see these sort of things. Listen, Will Fuller, we're getting in Elaine Johnson territory with Will Fuller. It's amazing how much it changes the offense. It's amazing. It's a different team when he's out there.

But right now, he's having injury problems. And so I don't know what that team looks like, but I know that Deshaun Watson's and D'Andre Hopkins' ability to rise above their circumstance is very, very impressive. I wrote about the Texans a few weeks ago. And the thought was, you know, what is, what are the Texans? Where do they go from here? What is this, the state? the status of the franchise when you think about that Bill O'Brien power structure.

And I think you could frame it as pessimistic. And because I feel like that's been the tone around them as we've discussed them this season. DeShon Watson is incredible. He can lift you. He can carry you. He is a rising tide when it comes to that franchise. But I don't know what else they are. And Laramie Tunsel has been good for them.

It's undeniable. You know, Gary and Conley made a big play. But you traded the clownie pick to get Conley, traded two first rounders and a second rounder to get Larry Me Tunsell. You have a structure right now with decision making that is all about this moment. How can we put the best team on the field right now? And I don't know how good that team is. They are not as good as the Ravens of the Chiefs.

They went in on this year. And they still have a lot of people to pay. And this team is nowhere near where it needs to be. And we're about to find that out when they go into Baltimore and they play a true, complete team with really talented offensive coaches, really talented defensive coaches. And more talent, by the way. So the Texans are very, very, very lucky to have gotten out of that game against Buffalo.

And they will not be as lucky this weekend. And then there will probably be more questions and answers about the Houston Texans on Monday. But what I will say is that I think that all of the reporting out of Houston is that Bill O'Brien's just going to keep this power and they're going to keep the status quo for at least another year. How could he not? Yeah. I mean, they're in on him. I do. I will say, hey, I could have used a few more JJ Watt reaction shots in that game.

Even as someone who didn't watch every moment of that game because I was en route, it was too much even for me. His one sack was amazing, but it's, well, what strange was you were just driving. You didn't have access to a television. And they, uh, they inserted into the windshield, a picture of JJ Watt. Just someone, one of the network executives just came up and just put a photo of J.J. Watt just on your windshield. Um, I, uh, how did they, how do he, how do you agree to get miced up? I don't know.

I don't know. They probably had to, they probably had to twist his bad arm. What a. Uh, were you? To be fair, to be fair, he, he played a. it's incredible that he was able to come back and and he's also an incredible player and i love j jr what but like yes we this is a we like j j wad here this is a pro j j wott podcast you've written many many words and talked to j wad a bunch we like him as a person he's one of the greatest players

in the history professional football i love j j wad but like yes i i completely understand what you're saying 20% less let's go from jjia watt on the next broadcast were you when you went to baltimore last week were you at the facility at all before you went to the game? Yeah. So I was there this week. I want to talk about this very briefly because it won't really be relevant by the time we, I guess what we could talk about on Thursday, but I had never been around Lamar Jackson

before. And I was there for his press conference on Friday, the one where he said his Hizman is in a box somewhere. Yep. And I'm, I'm so unbelievably charmed by Lamar Jackson. Yeah, he's amazing. It's outside of watching.

him this year. I've never been in like standing in a room with him before. And so they people like, so it was the day that the all pro team came out. And I was, I know Marshall Yanda and I know, I know, I know Ronnie Stanley. And so I was talking to both of them about like, you know, congrats like da da da da da. I was like, you know, I, you were on my first team. Like he's like, I'll take the second one. Don't worry. Like I'm not really worried about it. But so Jackson was sitting there and people were talking to him about stuff. And like, yeah, you know, know you were this and you were that. And every single time he answers a question about like an award, his first response was just like,

yeah, that's dope. And it's, I don't really care about it. And just like the level of like appreciation and humility and just like kind of how happy he is to be here while also just being singularly focused. It just again, it's you, these NFL seasons are defined by people. And he defined this one. And I'd never really spent time around him before. and doing it for the first time,

I was just like, yeah, man, this is fun. Like, I'm glad this is one of the dudes who is dictating what this league is going to be for the next decade. Mm-hmm. That's all with you there. Yeah, it was a fun moment.

I assume you had done it before, so I figured you had some insight on it. All right. Yeah, I'll be writing about the Ravens fifth week on the ringer.com. Very soon, actually. I am very excited about it. I have scrapped all of my Ravens coverage,

because I assume that yours is going to be so wide sweeping and excellent that it's just not worth me doing anything. That is a safe assumption. I would just scrap all your coverage for you. I won't write anything for the rest of the last. Just do some NBA blogs, something like that. You know what? That's totally fine with me. I'm kidding. I'm going to cover the golden globes today. No, I'm excited about it. What do you have this week? I have some Packer stuff coming. I know. I know what you have. I don't want to say. Do you want to say it? sure I don't mind I mean I

well let's save it okay you're doing a player you're writing about player you're running about I'm writing about a couple of different guys in the Packers and the Viking Saints outcome today actually gave me a little bit more relevance with something I've been working on so we uh we've we've got some stuff

the football gods work in mysterious ways it's so funny because like I don't I tweeted this before we get out of here I tweeted this I think one or two days ago and I don't think people really understand like so the stuff we have for the divisional route you and i have been working on since like December or 15th um the kiddle thing the kiddle profile i wrote was supposed to be a playoff that was a quick turnaround for you though and that well i wrote it about i wrote it and reported in about three days yes that's rare and yeah i mean during training camp it's like that's pretty typical

but then correct um this time of year i was going to hold it and i was just like this is done it's not getting any better like just run it and it turn out that to be the correct decision. So usually, I don't know, like at least a week on some of these things. Yeah, it's one of those things where like I think that we do a lot of planning in advance. And it's fun to kind of trot it out for people and to, you know, be able to give them some robust coverage when the sport becomes the most relevant. And I think that that's where that's where we are right now. You've been working on the Ravens thing for a while.

It's going to be excellent. I have some stuff about a certain team from Wisconsin that I have. I'm excited about. It's a Janus piece. It's all about Janus. And that, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a dual profile. But, uh, yeah. So, uh, please go check out the ringer.com this week.

Um, you know, I wrote about the, uh, the Patriots today. Um, I have a piece about Jason Garrett and the, uh, the Cowboys future, you know, we'll be doing pretty much everything when it comes to the playoffs over the next week, two weeks. So please go check that out. As always, we really appreciate you guys listening. Thank you so much for listening to Ringer NFL show on The Ringer Podcast Network. Thanks, guys.

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