The Ringer NFL Show - The Texans Traded DeAndre Hopkins for Who? | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: March 17, 2020

We struggle to find the logic behind the Texans trading superstar WR DeAndre Hopkins to the Arizona Cardinals for pennies on the dollar. We also cover some of the other marquee trades around the league today, including DeForest Buckner to the Colts, Jack Conklin to the Browns, Byron Jones to the Dolphins, and more. Host: Kevin Clark Guest: Danny Kelly Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer podcast network. I'm Kevin Clark. We are on day two of the least essential emergency pod on the planet, but it is a free agency emergency pod. Joining me is Danny Kelly. Danny. How are you, buddy? I'm doing excellent, man.

How are you doing? I'm doing okay, doing okay, riding this out. So let's put this in context. Most sports have stopped. In fact, all games have stopped. Most leagues have come to a grinding halt. All of us, just selfishly, quite frankly, a little bit worried about the lack of, shall we say, content over the next two months

as a sports media company. You can only think through it through that lens. Bill O'Brien. Like Bill O'Brien answered our calls. He took one for the team. He is a content lord. And we thank him. So big picture, let's talk about free agency and what happened on Monday before we,

we get into the nitty gritty of that trade. So DeAndre Hopkins, superstar wide receiver traded to the Arizona Cardinals for David Johnson. Uh, yeah, I, I, that's, those are the players involved. Uh, the David Johnson's are running back and, and for the last year has been particularly good. Um, the Cardinals also get a fourth round pick. The Texans get a second round pick and a 2021 fourth round pick. Couple other deals that are pretty important. DeForest Buckner goes to the Indianapolis Colts in exchange for the 13th overall pick. And the Colts sign him to a deal worth, it pays him $21 million a year, second biggest, according to Adam Schaefter contract for defensive tackle, behind only Aaron Donald.

Other deals, Jack Conklin, very good tackle, goes to the Browns, $42 million. Panthers cornerback, James Bradbury is headed to New York, three years, 45, $32 million guaranteed. Hayden Hearst gets traded to Atlanta. Got about that, yeah. Yeah, and then Austin Hooper goes to Cleveland, and then late breaking news, Byron Jones, going to Miami. Yeah. So let's start with the most important thing of the day,

which is the best player who was on the move on Monday with John Dr. Hopkins. This is Bill O'Brien being Bill O'Brien. You know, it's funny because I remember talking to someone last offseason, we were talking a little bit about coaches versus personnel people and sort of the tension that goes on there. And this is something I've talked about in the pod before, But one of the tensions it exists is that coaches will always sort of prioritize their vision for the best 22 or 53 guys or whatever it is over the value of what they're doing. Right.

Like sometimes sometimes that works out. The Niners, because they needed a fullback, Gabe Kyle Jusick, the biggest fullback contract in history. But that ended up being fine and made the Super Bowl because they knew, they know how valuable he could be and all that stuff. And whether or not you should pay that much money is a different issue. but they made it work, right? Yeah. Bill O'Brien seems to look at certain situations and say, we have a hold of fill or we have this to deal with

and I don't actually care either what I get in return or what the value of it is. You know, a good example is last year. Maybe because of the Andrew Luck panic, he trades for Laramie Tunsell because you have to make sure Deshaun Watson is protected. In a vacuum, that makes sense. Deshawn Watson is as valuable an asset as the Houston Texans have.

he's one of the best young quarterbacks or best quarterbacks in football. And you have to keep him up right or else they're going to end up ruining his career, as has happened with quarterbacks bad offensive lines. However, they traded two first round picks for him. This is, this is a Bill O'Brien move. The worst thing you can say about Bill O'Brien is he made this trade. It was a bad trade. And it's the type of trade you'd expect from Bill O'Brien.

So he has more power. He's the GM. He's the football czar of Houston. And this is the kind of thing he does. Danny Kelly, what's going on? So my first reaction was, generally speaking, there's always, I think when you first see the news of something on Twitter or wherever, there's a lot of times where the first gut reaction to trades can end up being a bit like hyperbolic or harsh or whatever. You can end up rationalizing it or figure out why it makes sense a little bit later. I'm very much struggling to figure out how this makes any sense,

both from a strategic point of view or a value point of view. I mean, both the strategic and the value factors in this trade make absolutely zero sense to me. Hopkins is an elite receiver who's still very much in his prime. I mean, he's not getting any younger, but he's still got a few very high-level years in him. You got a very good young quarterback that you need to, like you said, take care of. and getting rid of his best, most reliable target makes a little sense, especially when Will Fuller is like their next guy who's just been hurt all the time. So that strategically makes zero sense, and the value is just awful.

I mean, if you look at the list of receivers over the last few years that have been traded for a first round pick, you know, a lot of them are nowhere near Hopkins level. You know, Brandon Cooks a couple times, Percy Harvin back in the day. Hopkins is better than Mark Cooper. Yeah, I mean, He's the top three guy. So I just don't see how it makes any sense.

Now, there's some rumblings and reports that he and Bill O'Brien did not see I to that there was some tension there, which is exactly why you have a GM. Fine. You have a GM because... If I were Bill O'Brien and DeAndre Hopkins hated me, I would choose DeAndre Hopkins over myself. I would fire myself. I would self-cancel.

Someone tweeted, I don't remember who. apologies is like Bill O'Brien is not good enough to be trading away these kind of players, you know, because he doesn't get along with them. Like some coaches you could- It's Chip Kelly-esque. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, and the other thing is Bill O'Brien is acting like he needs to save his job because I think he absolutely does. And so you don't-

Which job? Yeah, I mean, I don't know how he managed to like secure such oversight over the entire franchise. Would you be surprised? if next week they were like Bill O'Brien is now the owner. The Johnson family just gave him the team because he asked for it. Yeah, for real.

I'm in agreement with you. So David Johnson, even if you think, okay, we can get a player who can help the offense, whatever. David Johnson in 2020 is not that guy. No. Both of them make around the same amount of money. Both have capits around $12 million.

Even if Bill O'Brien thought, we have to get DeAndre Hopkins out of the building, which again, I would have picked Hopkins over myself. But even if you thought that, you don't give it up for this. You have an auction. I mean, O'Dell Beckham went for a first last year. Plus, first plus, yeah. First plus, yeah.

But I'm just saying the first is the thing. Amori Cooper went for a first, obviously. I just, I'm struggling to see any justification other than Bill O'Brien thinks that with his unique skill at scheming, which, you know, he's a fine, but he's not Kyle Shanahan here, that he can recreate Hopkins production, that having him in the locker room

is a bigger detriment than having him on the field, which I personally find to be ludicrous. I don't, first of all, first of all, if DeAndre Hopkins didn't get along with Bill O'Brien, I can see Hopkins point. Okay, that's my first thing. And the second thing, I mean, it's not from a personal standpoint,

but just from, I mean, he's done. some things that have not put those players in the best position to succeed. Just that's that's sort of it. I don't know Bill O'Brien well enough, quite frankly, I know DeAndre Hopkins well enough. There's a great story with Robert Mays a couple of years ago where he spent some time with him. Mina Kimes wrote that story a couple of years last year about DeAndre Hopkins as well.

Different story. But I mean, I don't know either of these guys to make any value judgments on what's going on behind the scenes. All I can say is either played DeAndre Hopkins and let him be one of the best receivers in football or get value equal to that of one of the best receivers in football. This is ludicrous. Can you believe, so Bill O'Brien has traded away Jadavian Clowney and Dondre Hopkins in the last, you know, calendar year plus or whatever, and they have zero first round picks in this

in this draft. Right. Right. That is mind boggling. It makes no sense to get rid of two premium players. At premium positions. Yeah. Premium positions and not have a first round pick to show for it.

It's ridiculous. Or even your own first round pick. I know. It's just ridiculous. It's funny to me because I've been on this bit that Bill O'Brien somehow became the most normal Houston GM for a while, not most normal, but the Texans became the Texans became the most dramaless team in Houston because the Astros are massive cheaters. And Darrell Mori sent the rockets into an insane international.

debate. Bill O'Brien is back in that conversation. He has reasserted himself back in that conversation. All right. Let's talk about DeForest Buckner. You love DeForest Buckner. Now, I think it's interesting because the Niners here get the 13th pick in the draft. They get to build off of a obviously really good foundation from last year. And they've shown an ability to understand who fits in their system. Yeah. Who won this trade? First impression. Oh, man. It's so difficult.

And I think actually that kind of points to the idea, at least in my mind, that it's a pretty good trade for both teams. I agree with that. I went back and forth on who won the trade until I realized that I can see both sides of it, which means it's probably a good trade for everybody. So on the 49er side, it worries me a little bit that they're getting rid of Buckner, because last year, the defensive line was such a massive, massive part of their success, their identity,

the complexion of their defense, you take a so important, you know, such an important part of that out of the line, and it could completely change the entire sort of, you know, efficiency of the entire defense in theory.

You know, there's just like, they had such a very well-oiled system there with so much talent on the defensive line. And getting Buckner out of there, it makes me worried for that defensive line. Now, obviously,

they have the 13th pick so they can find a guy, potentially that can fill that role and have him on the cheap for another four years, kind of like what they did with Armstake, because he was the seventh overall pick. Yeah. I'm sorry, with Buckner. So maybe they can like do that again. Maybe they can get a guy like Derek Brown or whoever and play that role.

But I think it is a little bit worrisome just because, you know, their defense was such a huge, huge part of their success last year. And so they're taking a very big risk. The Colts, on the other hand, are also taking a risk because you're trading for, you're trading a premium pick for a guy and then paying him. them a huge amount of money. Now, they do have to use that money. I mean, they're one of the teams where they got to spend money at some point. And so I actually, you know, I think it makes sense for both teams. Really, going back to the 49ers, what I forgot to mention is they can't

pay everybody. So that's a big part of it. They paid Armstead. They decided they weren't going to be able to pay Buckner and Armstead premium money. They took a little bit of a discount, went with Armstead, got the 13 overall pick. So all in all, I can kind of see. it. It does worry me a little bit, but I can kind of see their strategy there because, you know, they have a lot of guys eventually that they're going to have to pay and all that to keep the team together. So that's just kind of a value pick that they decided to make. With the Colts, I think they had to spend money. They're getting a guy who's 26 years old. He's all pro. He's one of the best interior defensive alignment in the NFL. He's tall. He's long. They can use them in multiple ways. It makes a lot of

sense for them. So like strategically, I think that makes a ton of sense. But again, you're spending a premium pick and paying him top of market money. So that's a huge, huge cost. And so there's some, I guess what I was trying to say is there's some, there's some pros and cons for both. And I can't necessarily say I hate the,

I hate the trade for either team. I kind of like the trade for both teams. But at the same time, it makes me worried for both teams. So it's one of those semisler. Steve Palozoa points out, 49th's respective, they get Buckner's seventh overall.

They get four years, really good years out of them. And they flip them to the 13th pick. that is good business, right? Sure. And from a, just an on-field standpoint, for those who don't know, I mean, people, coaches, GMs, those guys know Buckner, and obviously he was a top pick, so I think the casual fan knows him.

But what does he do well, just from an on-field standpoint, Danny? So he creates a ton of pressure from the inside. So I mentioned it, number one, he's really tall and long, so he's kind of a unique guy. I mean, he's, I would say, probably one of the, in the running for second best defensive tackle. the NFL behind Aaron Donald. Aaron Donald, obviously.

Who else is in that running? Okay, so I would say that there's a pretty big tier of guys that are right below Aaron Donald. I mean, just going down the list, like Gino Atkins, Chris Jones, Drell Casey, you know, Fletcher Cox. A lot of these guys are kind of in that second tier, I think. I would say Aaron Donald's sort of in this tier of his own. Sheldon Rankins is really good, too. There's a lot of guys, but I would put Buckner in that group.

So, you know, he's a very, very good, good player. He had 55 freshers last season, which is seventh most among interior defensive linemen per PFF. Again, he's only 26 years old, so he's very much in his prime. So he's a very good player who's in his prime. Yeah, and that's why this is a good trade. All right, Tres Paler was on with the show two weeks ago, and we were talking about the free agents we were circling who could really have an impact immediately with their teams. Jack Conklin was the guy he picked. Jack Conklin goes from Tennessee to Cleveland today.

Three years, $42 million, $30 guaranteed. Jack Conklin's pretty good. And the Niners, the Niners, the Browns had a hole at line. That's one of the reasons they failed last year. You like this? Yeah, I think it makes perfect sense, actually, for the Browns. It's, you know, they're putting in a new system under Kevin Stefanski. You know, the system that the Vikings ran last season, essentially,

I'm guessing it's going to be very similar where they're doing a lot of wide zone stuff, a lot of play action. I really feel like, you know, when they're trying to do outside zone, wide zone looks, if you don't have a good right tackle, it's kind of one of those things where the runs can just blow up in the hangar.

If you get penetration on the outside immediately, it's over. And so having a guy like Conklin, he was actually the sixth rank the run blocking tackle in 2019 per pro football focus. So very good run blocker. You know, he's a good, he's an adequate pass blocker.

He's fine. very good run, Blacker. And so that's hugely important for the Browns team we're going to want to run the hell out of the ball. I mean, if we can take anything from what Stefanski, you know, did in Minnesota last season. So I think it makes a ton of sense for them. Same deal with Austin Hooper, who they also signed.

You know, tight ends are a big part of that offense. They do a lot of two tight end stuff. You know, play action. He's going to be kind of this guy that's running, you know, either up the seam or kind of these leakout routes on the backside of run plays. and so both of these signings make perfect sense, I think schematically and strategically.

So can't really fault either of them. I kind of like them. I kind of like the case kingdom signing too as a veteran backup. Yeah. I mean, I guess they see themselves as contenders because that's the type of thing you do

in case you're starting. I mean, I've told the story before, but, you know, Jeffrey Lurie doesn't even call it the backup quarterback. The Eagles don't. Jeffrey Lurie told me

the Eagles don't even call the backup quarterback. They just call it the second quarterback because these guys play. That just happens. And over the course of, I don't know, two seasons you're going to need. I mean, the damn chiefs were in the position they were in, in large part because they were able to get by and be competent with a backup. Saints, too. Yeah.

Yeah, the Saints too. Exactly. So I think that that's backup quarterbacks are important. Don't go cheap on it unless you've hit on a draft pick. Byron Jones. Yeah. So Byron Jones and Bradbury are So Byron Jones is better than Bradbury

But they're both So if one was making 17 One is making 15 And they're both going to teams That have holes everywhere And I like the signing of Byron Jones More for the dolphins And I also think the dolphins

Have a better overall plan here Do you agree? Yes I like the one for I like the Jones to the dolphins When I think that's I imagine you know Essentially you're looking at

his contract and this is this tells you everything you need to know but i think they see him as a franchise cornerstone type player kind of like um like stephan gilmore for the patriots and his ability to tilt tilt the field defensively like you can trust this guy on an island that changes the things you can do with the other 10 guys on the field changes you know the geometry of the defense all that stuff that we've been talking about with revis or whoever i'm not saying he's rivas but he's a high level corner who I think they can trust to get the job done and where they can do other things on the other parts of the field that's what the Patriots are you know Stefan Gilmore's a shut down corner for them I'm guessing Brian Flores looked at that and said we want a guy that can play

that role for our team not to mention they have Xavier and Howard too who's also an elite corner so let me stop here right there so Byron Jones is getting 82 million dollars total 40 million dollars guaranteed in first two years Xavier Howard was getting five years 76 46 million dollars guaranteed. Okay. This seems slightly Belichickian to me. And also, by the way, pro football focusing because past rush is more important than past rush, excuse me, past defense better than more important than past rush.

Yeah. But Bill Belichick has historically been more open to paying cornerbacks than pass rush, right? And he feels like you can scheme up pass rush or whatever. And he's traded a lot of those, a lot of really talented. front seven guys. I feel like they're starting from the back and moving forward and I like that. My only

hesitation there is they did trade makeup Fitzpatrick who would have been a very good member of that secondary. Damn, can you imagine? Yeah, they have the makings of a very good secondary obviously with two really good corners. Man,

I can't, I don't know if, like off the top of my head, I can't remember a team paying two corners like that much money. I mean, obviously these are paying. Yeah, I mean like A.J. Boy, usually it's a draft pick plus a free. Like AJ Boyer and Jalen Ramsey were the two two statistically best cornerbacks in football one year. But obviously Jalen Ramsey was on a rookie deal. I'd have to think about an expensive cornerbacks like that. But on the other hand, I wrote about this in December when I was down there, look, they've got the money to spend.

Sure. They've got the money to spend and they can spend it. And they had more transactions than any team in history. They took a huge amount of dead money to have this. sort of cap space. I'm in on this deal. I like this. I like this plan. The dolphins are not going to be good in 2020, but there's something there. You know what I thought of when I first saw this deal is

the way that the NFL is going, the direction of the NFL is going, a lot of teams have two number one receivers these days, or at least it's sort of trending in that direction. Plus, if you look at the draft this year, there's just a ton of really, really good receivers coming out. I think just the overall depth And also, I don't think we talked, I know what you're saying.

I don't think we talked enough about Arizona with Cliff Kingsbury. There's going to be attacks like that. I'm not saying the dolphins are going to have to play them in some big game or anything, but I'm saying like there are going to be offensively, offensive-minded coaches who stack their receiving core and have quarterbacks who can make plays and go five wide and just go crazy. Yeah, yeah. I think the more corners you have, the better.

you no longer need just one good corner in this league because you can pick apart the number two guy if you want. So yeah, it's a very, very interesting thing. I think Brian Flores a very smart, schematic planner and all this. And I'm very intrigued to see kind of how this direction goes because the dolphins have so many picks. They have so much money.

And, you know, that's a big, big move that they made right here. And so it's kind of exciting. Who won first day of parade in Sierra Arizona? Yeah, I would say so just because it was such a lob-sided trade. like they literally got rid of their worst contract and got an elite player for it. I mean, obviously they did give up a second round pick, so that's not nothing.

Fine. But, yeah, it just feels like highway robbery. And so I think they have to be the number one team. The other thing that we didn't talk about is it gives the Cardinals a really good amount of flexibility with the eighth overall pick. Yeah. Kind of going into the draft.

They can go line if they want it all the one. Yeah, they can go offensive line. top tier of tackles in the draft this year that it really really falls off a cliff after like the first four or five guys. And so they can get a blue chip tackle if they wanted. They could get a blue chip defensive lineman. They could get whatever they want. They don't have to be pigeonholed into being like we need a receiver to kind of make our offense work, blah, blah, blah. Like this gives them a ton of flexibility. So I think that's, you know, they did a lot of really good work today in making that trade. I can't even believe that. I also think that, I mean, Kingsbury's

ability to adjust to the season when on and I think become a better NFL coach in December than he was in September, which not a lot of coaches are quite frankly. I really liked what I saw out of him. I liked what I saw a lot of Kyler Murray. I think that they have a decent core, certainly better than they gave Josh Rosen, and now they can kind of build on moving forward. I was impressed with Steve Kime to sort of have the patience to get this sort of value. Yeah, this is good. This is the type of move they needed to really go from kind of where they are to fringe contender in the NFC West?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, they were the most improved offense objectively by DVOA last year. That wasn't hard. Went from 30, they went to, they went from dead last in points per game and offensive DVOA to, I believe they finished seventh and weighted DVOA. So that that waits more towards the end of the season. Like you're, like you're

mentioning, they got a lot better as the season went on. Seventh, from 30s. second. So they're going in the right direction. Obviously, there's still a lot of holes in all that. But I think Kyler Murray, his arrow is definitely pointing up. I think this is a huge move that stabilizes their offense a lot because they were doing a lot of their four wide receiver, three-eyed receiver stuff with kind of replacement level receivers. And this changes the whole complexion of that. And I think we'll get a better idea of kind of what Kingsbury's overall vision, I guess, is for his offense this season because he has more talent. They can

they can upgrade their offensive line too, I think. So it's going to be really fun. What I love is that the Cardinals got Danjoi Hopkins. They're going to be much improved. And Cardinal Seahawks games are not going to change at all. It's going to be six to six triple overtime. Well, or or the card. Yeah, or not.

I mean, it just like doesn't matter. The Seahawks will just, the Seahawks will just mold themselves into the perfect cardinals foil and they'll play epic game. that they are completely untouched by reality. All right, Danny Kelly, anything else? No, that's it, man. It's a good first day of free agency or whatever. It's not even actually free agency yet, by the way.

Well, we still have Phillip Rivers on the board. Tom Brady's on the board, Devin Clowney. So I think that we're going to be able to see some fireworks. And I think we're going to be right back here. Absolutely. All right. Thanks for listening to the Ringer NFL show and the Ringer Podcast Network. We will be back later this week.

It might be earlier than later, depending on when some of the bigger news and for agency drops, if there's more trades. But whenever something does happen, we'll be back right here.