The Ringer NFL Show - The Top 10 Remaining FAs

Episode Date: March 22, 2023

Nora and Steven return to discuss the best remaining free agents, but with a twist. From "How Did the Niners Do This Again?" to "Most Likely to Become a Pro-Bowler on the Pats," they give awards for the top talent on the market. Nora concludes the show by speaking with Chelsea Stark-Jones to discuss The Ringer’s new narrative podcast, ‘Blackballed,’ a story about the four men who reintegrated pro football in 1946, after a 13-year span during which Black players were secretly banned from the NFL. Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Steven Ruiz Guest: Chelsea Stark-Jones Associate Producer: Stefan Anderson Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal and Conor Nevins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Did your favorite NFL team win the Super Bowl? No? Then the NFL draft is your Super Bowl. I'm Danny Haifitz, and for now until the draft, we are turning our fantasy football show feed into the Ringer NFL draft show. Every Tuesday and Thursday, we talk about the top players and most important storylines for the NFL draft. So join us on the Ringer NFL show. Hello and welcome to the Bringer NFL show.

I'm Nora Princiotti. It is Wednesday, March 22nd, as we're taping this, well into the free agency period. I'm here with Stephen Ruiz. Stephen, you in writing on the ringer.com at the beginning of this week accused this free agency period of being pretty mid, was I believe the accusation.

Mid, washed, whatever, like free agency in general, it's washed. I wrote that if it was a player, it'd be begging for a trade to the Jets right now on Pat McAfee show. Like, this is how I, this is why I feel extra confident about this take because today, like about an hour ago,

I got a Shepter alert. I have his notifications on during free agency that the Jaguars were signing De Ernest Johnson to a one-year deal. I don't need an alert for that. Shepard does not need to be tweeting about that. I know he has to appease his agents and his sources, but enough. Not Deerner's Johnson, that's too far.

Where is the line? Who's the player? Oh, man, that's a good question. I'd say like Leonard Floyd. If he's below Leonard Floyd, DJ Charts. I'll give you DJ Chark. If it's below DJ Chark,

I don't want to hear about it. All right. All right. That's going to come up later in this episode. I'm so glad that you chose DJ Chark for that. We are going to be talking about this very mid, very washed free agency. Because I think once you get into this period

where like all the big splashy deals have happened, this is kind of where the real value is a lot of years. It's a little bit of a cliche, but I really do think it's true. A lot of the teams that end up, at the very least bolstering their depth and meaningful ways at this time of year. I feel like they don't do it in the first wave.

They do it in the like second and third waves of free agency where, you know, all of a sudden there are, there's a player who misjudged his market or someone at a position that was, was fairly rich in options in this free agent cycle and just sort of was the, the odd person out when the musical chairs stopped going or I'm mixing metaphors, but you know what I mean.

The guys who just sort of hung around and end up being valuable pieces for, you know, a few million bucks a year type deals. So that's my pitch for trying to liven up this free agency period. We're going to do some superlatives about the best remaining free agents. At the end of this episode, we also have an interview with Chelsea Stark Jones, our wonderful ringer colleague about her new series, co-reported with Lex Pryor for the ringer blackballed, which is just a really fascinating

story of something that happened in the 1930s where NFL owners conspired to keep black players out of the league for a little over a decade. It's a really, really interesting tale. It has some current day applications, and it says a lot about the NFL's history with race relations. It's just really, really well done,

and it was really interesting to talk to Chelsea about that. But for now, Stephen, I have five free agents who are still out there on the market and some awards to give to them pertaining to teams they might fit with or what I think they can offer. I believe you have the same. Do you want to give your first one? Yeah, I'm going to give my first award is this is the player that I think has the highest ceiling of any of the so-called second and maybe he'll have to wait to wait.

a third wave. I'm going to go with O'Dell Beckham. I do think his days as a number one alpha dog receiver are behind him. I don't think he, I think he still has the talent level, but he's just not reliable enough, like in terms of staying on the field. And if you're going to commit to a player like that and build your offense around a player like that, you want him to be on the field every week. And O'Dell Beckham has proven over the last couple years that it's hard for him to do that. But I think what he proved during his short time in L.A. was that he could be an elite option as a number two. I don't think the Rams win that Super Bowl without

without Odell Beckham Jr. Totally. He offered protection for Cooper Cup. Who said that recently? Was it Aaron Donald or somebody was going on a thing about how there's just no way they win that Super Bowl without O'Dell? I think it may have been even Cooper Cup. I know when we had him on the show last offseason,

he kind of mentioned how their game plan had been built around the fact, in that Super Bowl, I mean, had been built around the fact that they knew Cincinnati was going to sell it to stop him. And I thought that was what kind of refreshed the offense because it kind of fell into a rut in the middle of the year. That's something that a lot of people were talking about. And then Odell comes along, gets acclimated to the offense. He gives them another option. And I think that's what he can add to a team, whether it's like, let's say we get deep into the offseason.

The chiefs are still looking for a receiver. They lose Juju Smith-Schuster. And he and Odell is willing to take a prove-it deal where he gets to just chase another. ring. I think that is a needle-moving move that would change how I would look at the AFC race. And I think he has that ability, no matter what team, it doesn't have to be the chiefs, it doesn't have to be the best team in the league. You throw him onto the Ravens. I think that totally changes what their offensive looks like, assuming that Lamar Jackson is their quarterback next year. So I'm going to say O'Dell Beckham, Jr. I think he has the highest

ceiling. I think the reason why he's still available is the injury, but he seemed to look good in his workout. I think he has proven to be a player who can come back from a major injury. Like, as we saw him come back from an ACL before this, he suffered one in Cleveland and was a great player in L.A. I would take a chance on him. No matter what the price is, I think you slot him into your receiving core and you have a good quarterback. That's enough for like a top 10 passing game. Especially for a contending team, right? Because I think there's some, I think there's a, there's sort of like pride at stake with players, with someone like O'Dell, who's had that type of career,

in essence, is still coming off winning a Super Bowl because then he got hurt and missed the year. I think he'd probably, you know, you can save a lot of face taking a low-cost deal if you're going somewhere where it's like, oh, well, I could win a Super Bowl with Kansas City and with Patrick Mahomes. Or if it's something like, I mean,

I'm curious what you think about maybe the chargers for him. Like staying in L.A. could be option. There's tons of teams that could use a receiver. I do wonder about what the workout showed in terms of his health. It seems like everybody who went said he looked good, looks healthy. And the only reason I bring it up was just because of the foray with the Cowboys during the regular season. It did seem like if there was an explanation as to what happened there, it had something to do with, okay, maybe he's not quite where they were told. he was, that whole thing seemed weird

and I think the best explanation for it was just sort of differing medical opinions, which would help explain why he's still dangling out there because I totally agree with you. I mean, he's not peak O'Dell Beckham, presumably,

but he very clearly, at least last we saw him, still has something to offer. Obviously, that was pre-the-injury, but I, I don't know. He's had a long time to recover, and you got to figure that there would be a value out there.

And I would think that, like, the attention that you draw to the locker room when you sign a player like Odell may be a deterrent or may have been in the past, because there were questions about how well he fit into the Cleveland locker room or how well he fit into the offense and how much the coaches, like, thought of him as a player. There was questions about, like, how he ran his routes,

and if he was freelancing too much, if he wasn't like adhering to the timing of the offense, then you go to an offense that is based on timing. Like Sean McVeigh's offense, you have to run your rats at the right depth. It's very progression-based. And he fit in seamlessly. And there was nothing about,

and he took a backseat to Cooper Cup, which has to be tough for a player that who hadn't taken a backseat to any receiver to that point in his career. So I think he answered a lot of questions in that regard in Los Angeles. And then like you said, it comes down to the medical evaluation,

which, I mean, it seems like he's a great athlete who bounces back from injury. The last we saw him in L.A., he had all that athleticism still. He was still a field stretcher. If teams didn't put his safety over the top, he was going to beat the cornerback. If you guarded him one-on-one, I think that's a useful tool for any receiver, but especially a team that's ready to compete for a Super Bowl this year. I wonder if we almost underestimate how big of a factor going to a good team is. for someone like that, not just because of the potential to win a game,

but like, just because you brought up Cleveland, the Odell Baker-Mayfield situation, now that we have a little bit of distance on it with both players, was a level of like toxic and ineffective. It was almost impressive how badly they played together. I guess it's a little bit less sort of out of character or ability on Baker's part than on Odell's. But Baker was a better player

when Odell wasn't playing, which is also fascinating. Like, that will go down in history as one of the all-time horrible pairings of players. Some of the worst vibes you've ever seen in NFL history. Some of the worst vibes

that have ever existed in the NFL. No stranger to some negative vibes from time to time. But yeah, I do, I do just raise the thing about the medical because if that's not a major factor or a significant factor, then I don't really understand why Odlebeckham is still available.

Just go do it. Somebody go do it. There's plenty of teams that have, it can't be that expensive. There's plenty of teams that have the money. And I totally agree with you. If you could add Odlebeckham to your wide receiver room, quite a few teams. I mean, the Packers,

if they're really serious about putting talent around Jordan Love, obviously they're a little hamstrung right now. But if they can get the Rogers deal done, move the money off their, I can see them being in the mix. The Panthers. I mean, the Bears. If the Texans wanted to keep making splash,

the Jets, like it really, the list of teams should be pretty long who should at least be interested there. I'll keep it going with another receiver. I think I have to rename this superlative, the DJ Chark corollary, because I guess I'm saying that I'm hoping

that Stephen Ruiz gets an Adam Schaeffner tweet notification. about DJ Chark signing somewhere. My original superlative was just the, at least he can run fast award. Because he's one of the better, I think it's, you know, Chark and Odell are probably the two most talented receivers who are still dangling out there.

And when you look at free agents, I think one of the most valuable sort of framing tools is to just go, okay, why is this player available? Because generally if someone's really good, the team that already has them, is going to try their best to keep them. And I do find this a little bit of an interesting question

because I think in DJ Dark's case, it basically comes down to the fact that the Lions think Jameson Williams is going to evolve into a role that's somewhat redundant over the course of a full season. I'm not sure I think that's a great reason because if at this point, I would imagine a deal for DJ Tark would be somewhere in the range of

seven, eight million bucks a year, depending on contract length. For a wide receiver with field stretching speed, man, is that not a lot of money? And even in the case of Detroit, I look at that and just go, okay, but you don't want the depth, you don't want the backup option. You don't want to just keep someone in the fold that way who gives you. you additional snaps, helps you in case of injury. Williams is still unproven over the course of more time. I get why they feel very strongly about him, but it just never hurts to have another receiver. I would also look at the Chargers. I'd look at the Patriots. Again,

pending Rogers, the Packers, Panthers, Bears, Texans. There's, there are so many teams that could use another receiver. And I think part of that calculus is just a lot of, the entire league has just adopted this mindset of, oh, well, we can always hit on them in the draft because there are so many good receivers available in the draft in the last several years

have showed us that that's a pretty fruitful way to get an infusion of talent. But when it gets this cheap, somebody signed this man. Yeah, I had charcoal. my list as well. Like I wasn't throwing shade at DJ Chark. The only reason I brought his name up at the beginning was because his name was like right in front of me. So that was just like the three agent that came up. I think it's a good. I do think he's a good barometer for like, I do want to know what happens to DJ Chark.

I would like that. I would like to know. And I think the Chargers are a perfect fit. And I would say like the Jaguars, his former team, his original team, the team that let him go last off season, which I think was a mistake could really use a player like him. Yeah. Just a guy that could stretch the field, like you said. He can win downfield, and that's rare. And it's especially rare for a guy who doesn't get penciled in automatically as your top receiver. Usually those are the guys that get elevated to the top of the depth chart. Chark isn't going to be paid like one of those guys. He's not going to expect the same workload as one of those guys.

He's a guy that can just fit into your offense seamlessly, and you know he's going to make big plays. Like the category I had him in is like most likely to catch a game clinching pass for the chiefs in the playoffs. because if he goes to a team like the Chiefs, I think in December we're going to be like, holy shit, how did Kansas City end up with DJ Chart? Right, how did they pull this off? Similar to how we were kind of questioning,

like, how did they get Juju Smith-Schuster for how cheap they got him last year? When he, like, turned into not a Pro Bowl level producer, but he was just below that. He was a very reliable number one wide receiver for that team. And I think DJ Chark could be not a number one, but if you have a tight end like Travis Kelsey, I think your receiver room,

is in good shape if he's like your second best receiver on the roster because he does fill a very valuable role in that stretching the field and opening up that intermediate area where teams love to attack and where you have the most efficient throws. Totally. It just, I feel like one of the conversations that we had most often about receivers and teams that needed receivers during the 2022 season, was when it came to teams like the Chargers,

I think we had this conversation a ton with the Jaguars where it's just like, this offense needs that player. They don't have someone with this skill set. And if they had it, it would be really, really useful. And it would really help their excellent quarterbacks out. And here's a solid opportunity. And it doesn't look like it's going to cost all that much money.

So looking forward to the, the tweet notification. All right. My second pick is, I'm going to go with, my category is the player who should want to fight fantasy football analysts the most.

And it's Ezekiel Elliott. Because of the discourse we've been through over the last couple of years between, like, who's more valuable? Ezekiel Elliott and Tony Pollard. And I think like we've lost nuance in that conversation about like

the many roles, a running back bills. And I think Ezekiel Elliot, while his carries weren't as efficient as Tony Pollars, I thought he was like a very important player in that Cowboys offense. And it wasn't as easy as saying like, oh, look at Tony Pollard's yards per carry average compared to Zeke's yards per carry average. Because we know what he did for that pass protection unit.

Like every week, there were a couple of highlights of him making a key blitz pickup on a touchdown throw by Dak Prescott. And those are plays that just don't go in the box where you don't get credit for. a nice blitz pickup in fantasy football. So while I agree with the fantasy football people that Tony Pollard was the more explosive option and would produce more if he saw the field more, I think we kind of have undervalued

what Zeeke can bring to an offense. And I think if he's cheap, I would love to have him at the top of my running back depth chart. I think he improves your passing game. I think he makes your running game better. I think he makes your situational running game because he is such a tough runner. I think that was a big difference between

why the Cowboys had so much faith in him around the goal line compared to Pollard. He's a good professional running back and I think like the second act of his career is gonna be kind of like Frank Gore's where even if it's like clear that he's washed as like a runner, it doesn't really matter because he's still bringing a lot to the offense.

I think Frank Gore offered that to teams even like into his 30s when he was averaging like 3.5 yards per carry, he was still a valuable piece. And I think Zeke, whichever team he ends up on, I think it's going to be a contender with the smart coaching staff who recognizes that value. And I think he's going to be like a difference maker this season.

What about Buffalo? I would love him for Buffalo because I do think the one area where Josh Allen needs to take strides is recognizing blitzes. And I think if you have a margin for error, a running back that could solve issues on his own and kind of protect the quarterback, a quarterback who doesn't see blitz is coming from every angle, I think that really helps Josh Allen out. And it takes a lot off of his own. plate mentally without him even having to think about it. He just knows Zeeq's going to go to the right guy at the right time. They've obviously

they invested it running back in the draft last year and have done a little bit more at that position recently. It's not typically a priority for them. But again, if the money gets low enough, they haven't always had that guy who just sort of reliably can get you three yards. And with his abilities in Blitz pickup, that experience potentially

meshing well with Josh Allen. I do think it would be an interesting I think that could be an interesting fit. Again, it's a little bit counterintuitive to how they typically build that team, but also because it's counterintuitive to how they typically build that team, it's kind of a need for them.

So if he becomes cheap enough, I think that could end up making a lot of sense. It is curious to see what happens to this. I forget who the running back was, but there was like a famous saying where he said, if you need two yards, I'll get you three yards. If you need five yards, I'm going to get you three yards. And I feel like that's where Ezekiel Elliott is at this point in his career.

But that's useful, especially to a team, like you said, like the bills, who couldn't get those three-yard gains reliably. And that helps your offense. That helps your play calling, especially on second and third down. It just makes things easier. All right. You mentioned the phenomenon with Juju or with someone like DJ Chark of just at a certain point going, oh my gosh, how did the chiefs pull this off?

How did they manage to get this player? How did they manage to get this player for so little money? That was sort of what I was going for with my second superlative, which I'm calling the How Did the Niners Do This Again? Signing Alert. And the player is Bobby Wagner, who got his release from L.A., very talented, still a very talented,

linebacker, right? Second team all pro this year. Debatably lost a little bit in coverage. He's 33 years old, but by and large, anybody who saw him tackle that guy who was running on the field in that game last year knows Bobby Wagner still got it. And I do think that for one of the best defenses in football that could use a little bit more at that position, imagine Bobby Wagner and Fred Warner, right? Like, imagine that together. Imagine how exciting that would be. If this is another, if this gets cheap enough,

he probably wants to go somewhere good. That's why he asked for the release from L.A. It's not that far of a move. And I can just see it. I can just see the Schefter tweet coming across the timeline or rap sheet or whoever it is gets announced. And everybody is just quote tweeting this being like LOL-L-Niner. how did they do this again?

How does this keep happening? And I think the player for that is Bobby Wagner. What do you think? No, I like it. I feel like the 49ers are kind of the new Rams where they're the team where we're wondering like whether the cap is real or fake and how do they fit all these star players under it.

I really like that fit because I think Fred Warner kind of covers up the issues that he has had in coverage. And I don't think those issues are going to go away. my question is we don't know what the defensive coordinator, like how well they're going to perform. They obviously lost Domeco Rines. Those are big shoes to fill.

And I think at this point in Wagner's career, he is a player that has to be protected a little bit. I would love to see him go to the Chargers. I think the Chargers are a team that hasn't had a real linebacker, a linebacker who can take on a block and tackle in the run game since Brandon Staley was hired. And I think that's a key component that's been missing from that offense. And I think Staley would recognize his limitations and coverage and not ask him to do that so much.

We saw that last year when he had to make up for an overwhelming linebacker group. And what he did is he ended up using them just as like run gap pluggers. Like he didn't ask them to drop in the coverage. He didn't ask them to suss out whether a play was a play action or a run play. He just asked him to attack the line of skirmage and create havoc in the backfield. And I think Bobby Wagner last year proved that he could still do that because he had a lot of production as a pass rusher. The Rams blitzed him a lot. I think that was in part because of his struggles and coverage.

And he was effective. And I think he's a player that you could still get a lot of use out of. And the longer we get into the off season, I think the cheaper he becomes, the longer we get away from his heyday in Seattle. And honestly, I think the worst thing that happened to him was probably him winning that award because it kind of inflated his value past the point that I don't think that he can really match on the field. But having said that, he might not be a second team all pro at this point.

but I do think he's a good player. A good player worth signing, and I think he's a guy that can fill a role. Yeah, especially, again, a contending team, I do think the experience matters and a smart defensive coaching staff that knows where the weaknesses are popping up, how to protect him in coverage,

and then just use that tackling ability and that explosiveness that is really impressive at his age. That, to my eye, is absolutely still there. there is some buzz about a potential Seattle reunion which just for the the potentially explosive vibes alone would be sort of fascinating

but staying in staying on the West Coast feels right for him so chargers I like Niners I like Seahawks would be interesting Chargers he wouldn't have to move so that's nice but I hope he signs somewhere good I hope he signs somewhere where they know how to use him

because he can still be just a really fun player to watch. I'm going to stick with the Rams and another Rams cap casualty. My next player is Leonard Floyd, who I think is the player most likely to become a pro bowler if he played under Bill Belichick. And I'm kind of concerned that Belichick hasn't signed him already. I don't know. Like, is Bill Belichick awake signed this guy already? I don't understand why he hasn't been signed, especially with the way defenses are playing now, where I feel like unless you have a dominant four-man rush like the 40s,

Niners have, you have to get creative. You have to blitz guys. You have to drop traditional pass rushers into coverage. And Leonard Floyd can do that. Leonard Floyd, that's like what he's good at. He's an undersized defensive end, which I think scares teams off. But I think those guys just aren't thinking about modern defense and how you have to win. I'm surprised a team like Baltimore hasn't been after him already.

I think you would fit in well there. I think he would fit in well with any team that likes to get creative on defense. and the Patriots have been at the top of that list for a long time. And Belichick, it seems like Belichick is zigging while the rest of the league is zagging. And it's not for, it doesn't seem like for reasons that makes sense on paper. Like in the past it did. But now it just seems like he wants to build an old school football team just so he can say he did.

At this point, I think he's just doing a bit. Or, as you said, all this time, you've been explaining this. I'm thinking about, I'm imagining Bill Belichick, like, asleep at his desk or something. It would explain everything.

He's just been taking an elongated nap, and nobody can wake him up. And every time somebody comes into the office to try to rouse him, he just sort of like grunts in his sleep and goes, Jiu-Smith Schuster,

Mike Kaseki. And then, like, puts his head back down on the pillow, and they carry about their day. I think that makes total sense. I love that. It actually makes a lot more sense than any other theory of explaining the Patriots offseason to me.

He finally watched Mike DeSickey's like blocking reel and it just wiped him out. He's like, I don't know. Like, why did I sign this guy? That was the weirdestest signing of the offseason by far to me. Like I get, Belichick loves these versatile pieces

that can play different positions, but that guy's a receiver, pretending to be a tight end, which just seems like the antithesis of what Bill Belichick wants in an offensive player. But maybe this, this is going to lead to a different style of offense,

but I really don't like that fit. I don't know. Yeah, sometimes. He should have used that money on Leonard Floyd. Who's probably a better blocking tight end than Mike Taseki. Random newsbreak, Stephen. Hit me with it. Michael Hardman to the Jets.

Ooh, I don't know how to feel about that one. Did Aaron sign off on this one? That was such manufactured enthusiasm. Like, did Aaron? Aaron sign off on this one. Does he know who Nicole Hardman is? He entered the league in like the last four years. I think that's when Aaron stopped paying attention to receiver personnel around the league.

One of those horrible Gen Ziers. He probably, the Jets probably called them and were like, all right, we're signing Michael Hardman. How do you feel about this? And he was like, can you explain this in Randall Cobb terms? Can you explain McCle Hardman in Randall Cobb terms? He's like, and they were like, imagine. Randall Cobb was like a little bit smaller and faster and maybe not as good at route running. I don't know what this does for an offense because I still don't know how he contributed to the

Chiefs offense really. It was kind of always a mystery like week to week how he would figure into their plans. And I think he's a good player that has kind of been underutilized because the Chiefs had a wealth of options on offense. But I don't know if Aaron Rogers is the quarterback that's going to get the most out of them. Yeah, it's also sort of their target share situation is going to get interesting. I wonder if that has any implications for Elijah Moore being any more or less available. Are they still holding Donzel Mooms hostage, by the way? They like never play them but refuse to trade him or cut them.

What is going on? It's just like. locked in an office somewhere in Florham Park. It's like a dragon protecting him and like a guy, like Aaron Rogers or some other quarterback has to come and save him from. What is happening with that? Joe Douglas just stands in front of the door being like, that shall not enter the room of Denzel Minsk.

He stays here. One year deal up to six and a half million. I bet that's not really what he's going to earn. according to Ian Rappaport. I bet that includes some incentives. Interesting. All right. It's fast.

You just did Leonard Floyd, so it's time for my third, right? Yeah. All right. I'm going to be really honest. I forgot to come up with a good superlative award for this one. But the player has a good name. So I'm just going to call this the Puna Ford Award.

And it goes to Poon of Ford. I love it. I try to fit him into my list. couldn't, so I'm happy that you just said, screw it. It doesn't matter if I don't have a superlative. You know what? You know what? This is perfect.

This is the fitting Puna Ford in award award. Because, because. Maybe I could call it like the see the big picture award or something like that. Here's the thing. Puna Ford is one of the best defensive linemen still available. That's not saying all that much. But when we go back to the question, of, okay, if a player's still available in pre-agency, why?

I think this is one of the cases where if you're a team looking to acquire someone, you should be pretty comfortable with the reason that he's available, which is just that he's coming off a really down year. Worst year of his career, I think, pretty easily. And it coincided with his scheme change defensively in Seattle that just didn't work very well for him. So they go from the 4-3 to more of a hybrid 3-4, and he's asked to do a lot. more two-gapping, a lot more run-fitting, a lot more read and react. And his best skill, his best traits come from being a 310-pound guy who's got a really, really explosive first

step. So he should be a penetrator, right? He should be someone who, and he's not always been the most consistent guy doing it, but when he does it, when he gets on that first step explosion, it's a really, really effective tool from someone that size. And it didn't fit in super well with what they were trying to do and knocked him off his game a little bit. And I think if you look at that and go, okay, here's this one year of reduced effectiveness that has a pretty good explanation for why it happened.

Look at every year prior to that and go, this was a very solid player. You can feel pretty good, especially at this point where you're not going to have to pay all that much money at going and offering $7 million annually, see if you can get some. something done there. Bills, lions, Seahawks, chiefs, I think, have all inquired. There have been reports that all of those

teams have, um, at least, talked to him and his reps about potentially doing something. He's another one where I go, what about the Chargers? Um, helping that defensive line a little bit. I think the Falcons, the bears, the lions. The Saints don't have any money because they never have any money. Um, but, you know, they, can always figure it out. They seem still bent on

fielding a solid enough roster. So who am I to say no? And then, yeah, the Chargers, I think, would be an interesting one there too. So that's my Puna Ford Award. No, I like it because I do think the scheme stuff is kind of leading to this under-evaluation of what he is. And I think that in combination with the fact that he was

drafted highly, he is a unique body type for the position he is very short, I think also adds to the perception. So I think I wouldn't be surprised if he just ended up back in Seattle. Because I do think Pete Carroll understands what they went through on defense last year. And I think you could hear Pete Carroll kind of talk about the problems of the scheme and how much pressure they, not pressure, but how they kind of left their defensive line out to dry at times. Like they put a lot on their plate. It was hard being, it wasn't fun being a Seattle.

defensive lineman. Like defensive linemen want to pin their ears back and they want to just attack. And Seattle didn't do that last year. That wasn't their scheme. But what we've seen in past iterations of the Pete Carroll defense, which has put a premium on attacking the line of skirmage right out on the snap, we saw him thrive. And I think that's, there are a lot of teams that play like that around the league. And you named a lot of them. Like, I think he could fit into the 49ers system like seamlessly too. I think you put him in there. Oh, that's a good one. You asked him to attack. I don't think he's going to cost too much, so they would be able to fit him under the salary cap. I really like Puna Ford. I think last year, like you said, was an aberration. I think it's

easy to write off once you put it into context. So I'm with you there. Someone's signed this guy. He's another one of the, I'm using Bill Belichick more in the, as a meme than specifically for the Patriots here. But he's like most likely to get into a situation where the fits right and he's used right and have just like an awesome season. Yeah, that wouldn't be a surprise. My guy kind of is similar to that. I put him as the best reminder that football is still dominated by very large people. And I'm going with Calais Campbell, who is the biggest free agent remaining left, like literally

the biggest free agent, a giant man who I think has lost some of the past rushing that made him one of the highest paid players in the league a couple years ago. But he is still very useful as a run defender. And I do think when you kick them inside on third downs, you can still give you something as an interior pass rusher. And that's something that teams across the league. We keep bringing up the chargers as a team for like a destination for all of these defensive linemen and front seven players.

I think this is a perfect fit for him for them. Because they do ask, they do ask like Joey Bosa and Khalil Mack to set the edge where I think if you add a guy like Clay's Campbell who can handle that responsibility and a guy that you're not going to expect a lot of pass rushing out of. I think that just makes things easier for everyone. And I think it makes it easier for Brandon Staley to come up with more creative blitzes, more creative

run fits. So I really like Calais Campbell to the Chargers. I don't know if it's going to happen. But if it happened, I would be very happy. And I think the Chargers defense would it's an off-the-radar move that I think could improve a team a lot in ways that aren't going to be obvious to like the naked eye. For our own sake,

for the sake of most people in football media, particularly at the ringer.com. The Chargers can't get all these free agents. It's going to send us down a bad path. It can't happen. This is not allowed. These guys are not all allowed to go to the Chargers. We also just have to give up on the charges.

You have to get off this narcotic. The Chargers are never going to do the things that are going to make them a good deal. They're never going to be the contenders. Yes. I guess Clayys Campbell is going to Atlanta for a free agent visit. with the Falcons this week. That's according to Mike Garifolo on NFL network. That would be a sort of interesting fit, too.

Don't do it, Callais. Go to a team that is going to play in January, please. You're sick. He's going to sign with the Falcons, and all of us are going to be like, oh, the Falcons are a sneaky playoff team, and they're going to be like three and eight by the end of October.

We're going to forget Colais Campbell even exists. I mean, I guess, I guess it is safe to say that the Chargers are going to play in January as in, like, in week 17 and 18. let's just not not kid ourselves about the recent history of the Los Angeles Chargers. They could make a wildcard game and like blow a 35 point lead. Clay's Campbell can contribute it to that.

Can't wait to see it. Love it. All right. Here's my fourth. This is the, this is the for my benefit only award because I feel like I'm going just a little, I feel,

I feel unhinged. when I think about one particular player in free agency. And I need to test this against what you think and how you feel to just, like, try to ground myself in reality here. The player is Isaiah Wynn, who whenever I hear Isaiah Wynn discussed on shows when I read stuff, it seems like the league or I don't know if it's just media people have a fairly high opinion of this player. Now, obviously, he remains unsigned. So that's only to a degree. But it seems like there's a consensus thing where, you know, if you want to upgrade your

offensive line, Isaiah Win still out there. Isaiah Win could really do something for you. If you ask anyone affiliated with the New England Patriots as a fan, as a coach, I don't think very highly of this guy. And I don't mean this in a personal way. It's just because he's been really unhealthy and had really substantial injury issues throughout his time there. You can compile a very nice looking highlight reel of Isaiah Winn making some good blocks. The problem is it's going to show you about 90% of what he did. So I guess this is the like square the league's opinion with mine award.

I know Cincinnati has already added two tackles, but I think they've been linked to him. And at a certain point, if this gets cheap, cheap, cheap, you might want to think about doing it for depth. I haven't heard any other teams really specifically looking at when I think Kansas City might make some sense just because, okay, you've got Juan Taylor in, but you had Orlando Brown and Andrew Wiley out. I think the Jets, the Titans, the commanders, and the Bears are four teams that could all certainly stand to add depth at tackle.

But again, when I think about what kind of move would make sense here, this is a, you're getting down into the lowish, you know, three, four million a year. We're assuming this guy's going to be a backup because he can't stay healthy range. And that feels out of whack with the general consensus. So I'm wondering what your opinion is, Stephen. I think he's a guy that was drafted in the first round and I think the NFL in this league they struggle to ignore stuff like that.

I think he has that first round pedigree. That's probably it. And he's a name that we recognize. Whatever team he signs with. Yeah, right. And I'm ready to soft launch a take. And I think this take has been out there about Alabama. But it feels like Georgia players kind of peak in college.

The peak. They really play. those guys hard. They really, they really work them and, like, make sure that they're, you know,

at their physical best. And you have to wonder if that takes a toll on them and it affects them in the pros. I think Isaiah wins, early injury history, suggests that,

I don't know, I'm with you. I think that the perception of him as a player is based on those highlight reel plays. And I, but I also think you could make a highlight reel for any player

who was drafted highly because they were drafted highly for a reason. They have the athletic gifts that got him drafted that high. it's the down-to-down consistency, which I don't think he's ever proven, even going back to Georgia,

he was seen as kind of a raw project who's going to have to be molded into an NFL tackle, and that just hasn't happened. If Bill Belichick can't do it, I don't know what coaching staff can. Yeah, I mean, he's played 43 games in four seasons.

Yeah, that's rough to get out. That's like rough to overcome, especially if you're a player that needs those reps to kind of get to the level of an NFL, like how an NFL offensive of lineman plays. I don't think he's there yet. I think he's going to take a lot of reps, and I don't know what team he's going to get him from. Because I was looking at Isaiah win, and I just couldn't find a great fit for him outside of maybe a swing tackle role.

I think that's, but that's what makes sense to me. This is like, I'm sorry that we're getting to my fourth player and this is all supposed to be like, the best player is still available. And most of them are. And then here's this one where I'm just like, I am so much lower on this guy than the league seems to be. Although, again, no one signed him. So I'm not totally sure that the perception is matching up with the reality. But a swing, he's still, there is talent there. Yeah.

Right. And if he's a swing tackle, if he's backup insurance, you're mitigating some of the injury concern, right? So a role like that, to me actually makes a lot more sense than saying,

yeah, we're going to go out and get this guy. And even if it's not that much money, we're still penciling him in and forming plans around this player being a starting tackle for us. You've got four years of experience, but that is unlikely to happen over the course of a season. You've got four years of experience that say that, like,

even if you're only getting his best when he's on the field, he's going to be on the field about half the time. And I just don't think that that's, you don't want to plan around that. It does feel like a chief signing where they have taken chances on first round picks that have disappointed in their first stops in the NFL. and even if it's in a backup role. And I think that team is very sensitive to how fragile the stability of an offensive line is based on their experience in the Super Bowl against the bucks and how they lost their offensive line and how much damage that did to the past year and Patrick Mahomes. So it would make sense for a team like that.

Yeah. I think what this conversation proves is that what I wrote at the beginning of the week, free agency is washed. We're only a weekend and we're talking about swing tackles. All right. Who's your fifth? My category is just that he's got that dog in him, and that's enough for me. Marcus Peters. I'm signing Marcus Peters, and I'm signing Marcus Peters.

I don't know if he could still play football at a high level, but I do know that that guy competes, and he cares, and he is a guy that, like, he has a rational confidence, and you kind of want your cornerbacks to be unhinged, especially that number two cornerback, who isn't getting paid a lot of money, who doesn't get a lot of attention when they have a good rep, but gets a lot of attention when they get burnt by like Tyree Kill,

which happens to a lot of cornerbacks. And I think Marcus Peters has kind of fallen into that, that realm of cornerbacks over the last couple of years because he hasn't been healthy. He hasn't played his best football. But I do think at the end of last year, we kind of saw the old Marcus Peters. And if you go back to the games against Cincinnati,

they tried to pick on him with T. Higgins and Jamar Chase. And Peters held his own. And if you can hold your own against those two receivers, especially with how we know Cincinnati is going to figure into the AFC race and the championship race all season. You need guys that aren't afraid of those two.

Aren't afraid of receivers like that because there are a lot of them around the league. And I think Marcus Peters is that guy. And the longer we get into free agency, I think the cheaper he becomes, I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up on Baltimore because I do think they value that competitiveness in the locker room.

But any team can use his toughness. And I know he hasn't been the best tackler throughout his career, but he's a guy that will put his nose into a fight. He's not going to shy away from trying to make a tackle. He's just not very good when he does it. I want guys like that in my locker room,

especially in the secondary, especially on defense. And I think Marcus Peter still has that in him, even if he doesn't have the top level playmaking that he had at the peak of his career. He's the interesting, he's an interesting one to me right now, because often with the,

the, a sort of a playmaking corner who's got a lot of ability is getting older, is losing a little bit of that, has probably lost a step in terms of athleticism and speed. The easy thing is, okay, well, maybe you, you have them play a little bit of safety. You convert him a little bit. I don't know if Marcus Peters is a great candidate for that just because of the tackling. But I agree with you that you should want that playmaking. And there's probably a way in a good defense to, some of that. I don't think it's quite

as easy as it is in some other cases where he's as you said, certainly a willing tackler, but if the player is a little bit of a stronger tackler, changing the role sometimes has an easier you can sort of pull that lever and do that with a little bit more ease

than I think it could happen with Peters, but Baltimore would be I agree, I think Baltimore makes a ton of sense. I would love to see him in New England with Bill Belichick because I think Belichick is the one coach who really understands how to match up cornerbacks to receivers and goes out of his way to make sure the matchups are right.

And I think if you limit Marcus Peters to assignments that you know he can handle, you get the best out of him. And then maybe you get like five interceptions. And then he gets on a Pro Bowl team. And I think you have a top 10 defense, a top 10 pass defense, if you get the best out of Marcus Peters. And he's able to create havoc as he did when he was before these injuries.

So you want sleeping Belichick to be like drooling on his desk and be like Marcus Peters Marcus Peters. Yes, wake up. Marcus Peters. Leonard Floyd. Sign someone. I'm so sure nobody in the world is going to think this is as funny as I do. But I just, I love it.

I love that idea. It explains so much. He's asleep. He's asleep at the wheel. Nike, the dog, just like wagging his tail waiting for Bill to wake up. Please wake up. Feed me. Somebody feed.

All right. I got to do my tips because this is going to get out of here. I completely cheated for my last category. That's fine. Completely cheated. But that's because, as you've said, this free agency is boring. So I'm ignoring it. This award is the, how about the 26-year-old former MVP quarterback who is not technically a free agent, but is dangling out there looking for a contract offer?

Award, aka the What the Heck is going on award, aka the somebody do the smart thing and go talk to Lamar Jackson Award. This is unbelievable. It's insane. This is crazy. I feel like I've taken crazy pills. Like, talk about the... This is why I love the Sleeping Bill Belichick thing award is because like the Patriots are not in the top eight,

even teams who make the most sense for to try to go get Lamar Jackson. But like, say you're the Patriots. Shouldn't you just go sign this dude? Yeah. Shouldn't you just go figure it out what you think Mack Jones is going to become better than Lamar? Like, what is the league doing? Like, truly, what are they doing, Stephen? I don't have an answer for you.

I had gotten over the Panthers kind of writing off the fact that they were interested in Lamar Jackson. once they traded for the first overall pick. And then I saw Scott Fitterer, the GM, hold the press conference. And he was asked about Lamar Jackson. He was like, we looked into it, but he was a very expensive option. And we weren't willing to pay that price. You traded multiple first round picks, maybe the second best receiver in the history of the franchise, to draft a quarterback that you hope in four years you can pay $250 million.

Like you are hoping that that quarterback becomes as good as Lamar Jackson. He is not an expensive option. Everything we know about how valuable quarterbacks are, especially a quarterback like Lamar Jackson, who I think transcends like on-field success. Like he's a guy that's going to put people in the seats. He's going to sell tickets. He's going to sell jerseys.

He's going to make you money. And he's going to win you football games. I mean, Atlanta. I think Charles McDonald wrote about this at Yahoo today and was, I thought, being really smart and pointing out, like, that is a fan base. that still holds up Michael Vick as like so important, so foundationally important to the identity of the team,

the identity of the fans, the identity of the city, how they interact with football. How much fun? How many butts would you put in seats with Lamar Jackson in Atlanta? Like the Packers are like, the Packers somehow have,

believe they have, leverage when they could be forced if they don't get a deal done to pay Aaron Rogers $60 million next year. This is the type of situation that's like not uncommon in the league at quarterback. He's 26 years old. He's Lamar Jackson. This is actually nuts. This is the best example I can think of in recent memory of the thing.

Kevin Clark loves to talk about this. The old thing about like only eight teams are trying to win the Super Bowl in any given year and I think Kevin brings it up because he had a conversation with, I think it was Kyle Shanahan once who said, oh, it's not anywhere near that many. Kevin, I'm sorry if I'm miss telling that story. That might be completely libelous, whatever. They're not trying to win. The teams who are not looking into this are not trying to win. They're not trying to win on a serious direction of franchise altering level. And we should all just let that sink in because this isn't a completely

this is such a rare opportunity and no one is taking it and that is flabbergasted to me. And one of like the, I guess the arguments against signing Lamar Jackson is the last two years. Like what he's been since he's won

the MVP and like he hasn't finished a season in two years. But I would argue that it wasn't, they're not injuries or season ending things that I would be too concerned about. Like the first year he had a couple of bouts COVID. He sprained his ankle. It was another ankle injury last year that kind of took a little long to

took longer than the team expected to heal. But I'm not overly concerned about ankle injuries or him getting COVID twice in one season. And I think the one thing that he did prove over the last two years is without a good supporting cast, not even a league average supporting cast, when he was healthy, the Ravens had a top 10 offense both years. With a receiving cord that I would put in the bottom five of the NFL. With an offensive line that is good at run blocking, but not very good at past blocking. With an offensive coordinator who was very fairly criticized for the lack of innovation in his passing game,

he has overcome a lot and has almost been a one-man top-ten offense on his own. I think he's one of the few quarterbacks that you don't have to worry about supporting cast with. And that's always the concern when you pay a quarterback is if he's taken of a large chunk of the cap, how do we support him with other players. Lamar Jackson has proven that he's supporting cast proof. And I think the only other guy that you could say that about at this point, and I don't even think you could say it about him before last year, is Patrick Mahomes, who didn't miss a beat after losing Tyree Kill.

I don't get it. There's never going to be an explanation that's satisfying to me. I think it's just the fact that he wanted a fully guaranteed deal and the owners are making an example out of him. That's the only explanation that makes sense. because he is one of the best players in football. And he has been going back to his time at Louisville. And if you're truly trying to make an example out of him

for the contract stuff and not letting the Watson contract become this precedent-setting thing, make the example by signing him to a not fully guaranteed deal. I don't think that there is good information out there indicating that that is a non-starter. Right. Make a good deal. it seems like he wants to,

to your credit, Stephen, seems like he wants out of Baltimore. And obviously, there are steps that any team would need to go through in order to make that happen, that the draft picks are not insignificant. And I'm not saying

that Lamar Jackson is a perfect quarterback or that this is a perfect situation. But finding an elite quarterback is the hardest thing to do in this sport. It is the thing that alters who wins and who loses and which teams are good and which teams are bad and who wins the Super Bowl. And he's just out there. He's just available. And as best as I can tell, the reason that he's just hanging out there and we're looking at this and going, well, you know,

probably see if he can probably end up back in Baltimore and see if he can work out with the Raiders, unless Jim Mersey wakes up one morning and decides to do something crazy. is just that a lot of people sort of think he seems like a weird guy and don't like the cut of his jib or whatever, which is just, if that is the case, one, I think that's really unfair, but two, it is another piece of evidence

that for a lot of these teams, whenever they talk about winning at all costs, is not true. Because if you're trying to win, win at all costs, you do a little bit more to pursue the 26-year-old former MVP quarterback who is just available. My question is what's stopping a team from just being like, hey, Lamar, come play for us for one year and we'll give you $50 million. We'll give you $60 million this year. I mean, two first-round draft picks conceivable, like in theory.

But it doesn't have to be. that, right? Like, I mean, first of all, again, that's not as crazy as it sounds, right? Because who's a better quarterback right now? Aaron Rogers or Lamar Jackson? I would say Lamar does more for your offense right now, but I think they're in range, right?

Does that seem reasonable to you? Yes, yeah, without a doubt. Aaron Rogers might cost the Jets in the next year. He might cost them $60 million and a first round pick, you know, plus whatever. but we're talking about that. That is an idea that is not outside the Overton window of what we in the NFL consuming public and media

are talking about as reasonable and normal. Somebody said that about Lamar Jackson. It's like, what are you doing? And I know it's two first round picks, and that's the difference, and I also don't think that somebody's going to give him $60 million for a year. But just to compare what is being discussed as reasonable and rational

is not really jiving with the quarterback's skill set. No, not at all. Especially where the league is going with quarterbacks. It feels odd that we're even having discussions about his long-term viability. In the same season where, like, Jalen Hertz emerged as an MVP candidate

and didn't have, like, he wasn't the most polished passer in the NFL, but he showed you the value of a guy that can run that could be the hub of your running game. And when you have that at the quarterback position, just makes everything easier. And Lamar Jackson has been that for five years or since he got to Baltimore. The track record is long.

The production is one of the, it's like at the top of the league. I think it's top five since he entered the league, since he became a full-time starter in terms of EPA. The passing numbers are there. The running numbers are there. The production for the offense is there. They've won a lot of regular season games.

There hasn't been too much postseason success, but I would lay that on the sporting cast and not him. I don't understand the trepidation with him. Signed Lamar Jackson. In a league in which Daniel Jones is getting $40 million a year. Jim, or say you hired Jeff Saturday as your head coach last year. Can you please sign Lamar Jackson? Somebody fix this.

All right. That's all I got, Stephen. This is cathartic. I feel the same. Before we go, I got the chance to talk to Chelsea about Blackballed. So that conversation is coming up next. All right. Well, we are so lucky to have Chelsea Stark Jones on today's episode.

Chelsea, along with Lex Pryor, is hosting a new audio documentary series called Blackballed, which is about the NFL's secret banning of black players from the league in the 1930s. I've listened to the third episode that's on the ringer NFL feed now. It's fascinating. There are going to be three more episodes on the feed this week and next. Chelsea, first of all, thank you so much. for coming on and telling us about this awesome and really interesting project. Is this your first time on the Ringer NFL feed other than the first episode of Blackball

and the trailer? Yeah, well, thanks so much, Nora, for having me. And it is, which is funny because I've worked in sports my entire career, but coming over to the Ringer, it's been strictly pop culture and reality TV. I know that way. Yeah, it's nice to dip my toe back into the waters of sports and football. again. Well, so can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what made you want to take this project on along with Lex? Yeah, you know, so previously to coming here at the Ringer, I was working at the NFL. I'd worked there for about 10 years. And I've done a lot of stories that revolved around the black experience within the NFL. And one of the things that I wanted to continue to do when I came to the Ringer was to continue to tell these stories.

but do so in an authentic way to the brand. I didn't want to force anything. But this story, I felt, you know, we were in that ringer brainstorm, the NFL ringer brainstorm at the beginning of pre-football season. And when I mentioned this, it seemed to have gotten some good reception in the room. And it's been a story that I've always been curious about.

I've heard about it. I was doing a documentary on Fritz Pollard. That was the first time I've known about this secret agreement, the gentleman's agreement, but it's not something that I fully dived into. So I thought a narrative podcast and would be a perfect space for us to kind of deep dive into, you know, 1933 and what happened in the NFL. So you mentioned that gentleman's agreement, which is the title of the first episode, can, you know, you, in case somebody hasn't heard it, can you tell us sort of what that agreement was? And as you guys describe, uh, the sort of strange twists and turns in the story of segregation and football that

led up to that agreement, which is a lot of the focus of the first episode. Yeah. So it was this unwritten rule. Uh, it was not put in print. It was not advertised in any way whatsoever. It was was there were black players in the NFL, albeit a small amount, but there were black players in the NFL prior to 1933. And then out of nowhere, there just weren't. And that is not because of lack of talent or lack of a player pool. Black players were playing in college. They were playing in HBCUs. They were playing at big schools as well. So they existed. It just was that they were not being employed. And some of it had to do with the current times of the country. We were going through a Great Depression. But also it had to do with just who some of the owners were.

We mentioned George Preston Marshall, who I believe I call a raging racist in the episode. If he's got a whole Wikipedia section dedicated to it, as I think Lex pointed out in the episode. I don't know if the shoe fits. Yeah. Yeah. So there were some, a large group of owners that specifically did not want to hire and employ black players. And so it went for over a decade to where there were no black players being hired. There were some that peaked interest, but never made it fully onto a team. And yeah, it's fascinating, but it's also something that the NFL has often, when they talk about the four players that integrated the league,

they don't talk about why they had to integrate the league. and they don't mention this gentleman's agreement. It's a dirty secret that they have. Can you share with us without giving too much away a little bit of how, so did your reporting find that there was an actual agreement or was this sort of, you know, we always throw around the word collusion in NFL circles, and there's so much opacity in how ownership groups either think as one or literally agree to act as one

in cases that have come up in the modern NFL, which is part of why I think this is so interesting that it sort of traces that history. What form did the gentleman's agreement actually take? Yeah, so I'll mention a story that I believe we'd talk about a little bit in the second episode. So Kenny Washington was one of those star collegiate athletes. He was raved about from, you know, Green Bay Packers coaches.

Curly Lambo loved him. And he was, everyone expected him to have been drafted into the NFL after his college season, his final college season at UCLA. And he was on the college All-Stars team, which back then is the All-Stars. game and it was all-star college players against the Green Bay Packers. They played against the championship team from the NFL. And Kenny was sought after by Bears George Hallis. And he was interested in hiring and employing and getting Kenny onto the Bears team. But once that was taken to the owners, it was swiftly shot down. So it was, again, it was nothing that was.

written. There was no bylaws in the owner's meeting that said this can't happen. But there were owners that I think rallied behind George Preston Marshall, but also to be fair, you know, went along with it for a long time. He, George Preston Marshall was a face of it. He was the most like outspoken racist of the owners back then. But a lot of the other owners didn't stand up against him or say this is wrong or we would like to employ someone or whatever. So it was more of just an understanding than, I guess, something written down and that everyone followed. So one of my favorite and the most interesting things about diving into the series for me was all of the connections to the modern NFL, right? This is a story that mostly takes place in an after

for the 1930s and the four players that reintegrated football. You know, these are characters from history who I was not familiar with some of the names. I think a lot of even sort of avid modern NFL fans are going to learn a completely new story, which I think is one of the hardest things to do in football media. So hats off to you. It's such a saturated storytelling environment that that sharing with people something that they don't already know is so incredibly hard. And I think that's the experience a lot of people can have listening to this show. Thank you. But it also has so many connections to an NFL that we

know very well and live with and watch and observe all the time. Right. So can you weave some of the connections between the story that you're telling and the NFL that you and I have watched over the last however many years. Yeah, I mean, and that's kind of what got me to host the show, I guess, was I was having a conversation with her colleagues, Vikram and Connor about my conflicting feelings about being an avid NFL sports fan and consuming it all the time, knowing that I feel like a lot of it conflicts with my own moral compass and what I believe and whatnot. and that has to do with how their hiring practices or the collusion with Colin Kaepernick

or their treatment or mistreatment and how to punish players when it comes to women and whatnot. And we wanted to use some of these modern day examples to bring in our modern NFL listeners so that they didn't feel like this story was so. old because it does relate back to the present. And one of the things that I believe we say is it's a past that informs our present. And I love history. I love looking back at history. And I truly believe that, you know, if you don't acknowledge the mistakes that happened prior, you're going to

continue to make those mistakes. And I think that's a big part as to what we're seeing in the NFL today is because they just sweep things under the rug and kind of like move on. And they're a very reactive league and not a league that takes a stand. And yeah. So I think that that's why we see these issues today. And we start specifically with with Kaepernick. And, you know, I see clear correlations between the collusion that happened with him and the collusion that happened almost 80 years ago.

with black players and ownership. So it's fascinating. It's sad to see not a lot has changed. But it's also just interesting all at the same time. You really, you took me back to some not so great moments when in the first, I don't know how many minutes, the first episode was like, oh, yeah, that Mike Glennon contract. Oh, my goodness.

How is that allowed? Like this can't. It can't possibly have happened. But it's a very, very real story. And to see how this history of the league sort of informs the present, as you said, is really, really fascinating. Were you, so you were at NFL Network in 16 and 17 when all of that was going down? Yeah. Yeah.

I was, I believe I was an associate producer at that time for our storytelling original content group. what was that like? How did you, because I know you talk about it a little bit in the series, but your own perspective is so, I think, vital to the way that you're walking people through all of this information and all of this reporting. So can you tell us a little bit about just sort of like how your perspective shifted or just took all of that in and what it was like being there and working for the league in those moments? Yeah, I mean, it was definitely a really crazy time and also just looking at not the NFL itself, but the country as a whole, we were going through a really contentious election and whatnot. And it was really a time where sports

and politics like truly collided and bled into each other. And it was really difficult. And it was really frustrating because for me, I saw what Kaepernick was doing in his movement to be something of social justice of him trying to bring a platform and a voice to a community that felt like we were being unheard and for it to be taken and controlled and for him to essentially lose his job because of it was really shocking and I think I even mentioned it in the pod but I just felt very naive to think that that could happen something that was met with the or meant with the best intentions for him to no longer have a football career after that was really, really shocking and surprising to me. And as I lay out in the show of all the players that got

opportunity to play after him during that 2017 free agency is when I started to- Jay Cutler on retiring. Yeah, it was crazy. And that's when I think the Jay Cutler moment was when like a light bulb went off to me of like, okay, this is something else is going on underneath the surface because this just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Right. I never want this to be a reason to sort of let the NFL off the hook, but something that, you know, as I too, and I think a lot of people have been thinking, I don't know if more and more is the right way to say it,

but just thinking a lot about our relationship with the NFL and the organization's action, inaction, eventual action, hopeful action, to remedy some of its historical problems is they tie so closely into the history of this country, which along racial lines is incredibly, incredibly fraught. And it just struck me, as you were saying now, that, you know, going through that time, it was also we were going through a really contentious election. In the story, there's so much that I didn't know that that was really interesting to learn about the decision to make that gentleman's agreement

and to blackball black players from playing in the league, it had plenty to do with the individual racism of the people in charge, but it was also a reaction part to the Great Depression. Or even the fact that the league had ever been integrated was in some ways, as you guys said, a response to the fact that the country was becoming more diverse in some ways, but people felt that we were getting soft and that we weren't exploring the West anymore and that manifest destiny had sort of come to an end. And it is really, just as I think you so clearly do, as you spend time thinking about that push pull between sort of

like, is this league sort of acting out its own wrongs or is it reflective? our societal wrongs. That interplay really, really fascinated me. I think you guys captured just so much information that was new. You're telling the story. I'm only an episode in, but you're telling it in such a fascinating way. We're really lucky to have it on the feed. I encourage everybody to check it out. Chelsea, is there anything else that we should know about Blackbald before people go dive in? No, I mean, I appreciate you having me, Nora, and I'm so grateful that I have this space here at The Ringer to be able to tell this story. And I just encourage people to listen with open minds and open hearts. I think oftentimes when politics bleed into sports, a lot of people

shut off or race or whatever. And I think that this story really does help inform some of the issues that we're seeing today in the NFL. And to your point, it is parallel to what's going on in our country and sports do reflect the country, the fabric of the country and what's going on in our country. So yeah, I enjoyed working on it. I enjoyed the process. I got, you know, in these COVID times when we're all isolated and at home, it was great to be able to go into the ringer offices and dig in with some of my colleagues and be creative. And so, yeah, I just hope everyone enjoys to listen. That's Chelsea Stark Jones. Go check out. Blackballed. Really, really fantastic. That's going to be on the feed. Episode 1's already out.

Episode two coming later this week and the final two next week. Thank you, Chelsea. Thanks. This has been the ringer NFL show. Thanks again to Chelsea for coming on and talking about Blackballed. Again, encourage everybody to check that out. Thank you to Stephen. Thanks to Stefan Anderson for production on this episode. and Sue Connor Nevins and Arjuna, Ramgapal, for additional production supervision. We will be back next week.