The Ringer NFL Show - The Two Weeks That Changed the NFL, and the Biggest 2020 Story Lines | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: June 11, 2020

NFL Network senior correspondent Steve Wyche joins the show to talk about what has stood out over the last two weeks in terms of player activism and participation in the movement toward racial justice in the NFL. We touch on what still needs to be done by the league’s owners, as well as how players can sustain this movement throughout the season (0:40). Then, the Ringer’s Nora Princiotti calls in to talk about the biggest storylines of the 2020 season (31:50). Host: Kevin Clark Guest: Steve Wyche and Nora Princiotti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Kevin Clark. Thank you for joining us. Two guests today, senior correspondent at the NFL Network. Steve Weish will join us. Talk about the recent wave of player activism, which is an incredible conversation that I felt touched on a lot of important topics. I think we'll define in some ways the NFL season.

And Nora Princiotti makes her debut as a full-time Ringer employee. We had her a couple months ago when she was at the Boston Globe. But she's here to outline the most important on-field stories of the NFL season in 2020 and both great conversations and I think you'll enjoy them both. Steve Weish NFL Network, senior correspondent, joins us. Steve, I think the last two weeks have been

some of the most interesting and impactful that I've seen since I started covering league in 2012. And I think that some of the voices that have emerged have been powerful, some of the voices that had already emerged being elevated have been powerful. I think that the idea of a generation of young stars, including Patrick Mahomes, releasing a video and then getting Roger Goodell,

who has famously been very hesitant to make stands on anything, to get him to come out on a Friday afternoon and at least give something to the players and say, hey, we should have been listening to our players before we should let them protest. I think that's a step. And I think it shows you the power of the players. I think it shows you the power of this peaceful protest.

And I am interested to see how football culture, which is built on coaches having, having quote unquote no distractions culture or whatever it is, how that starts to change in an era where players rightly had the power that they deserve. When you think about the last couple of weeks, Steve, what has stood out to you about the player protest and the player activism? Well, I mean, so much. And we can talk about the last four years when Colin decided to peacefully protest

and basically say, hey, guys, there's police brutality. We need to address this. You know, he kind of warned us what was coming. But, you know, look, that goes back so much longer in sports. But let's keep it kind of in this pocket. I mean, a couple of the biggest things, yeah, with CAP, you know, starting with CAP. But, you know, a couple of the big things to look at. And it's kind of in football, but also we're seeing it in society is the young players,

the young people in this country, not caring. I mean, they are like, we wield influence, right? now. We saw it in the video. We're seeing it in players participating in March's players meeting with their teams. And some, look, here's the one, the distinction we have to draw Kevin and you know this. When we view the NFL and Roger Goodell, we view the NFL as a monolith. But the NFL is a sum of its 32 teams. Right. So Roger Goodell typically waits for the green light for the majority of his 32 owners to speak up, to enact things. That's what we saw with Colin, right? Oh, my gosh, how are we going to address a quarterback in the

NFL not standing for the playing in the national anthem to peacefully protest police brutality? And so the owners are like, oh, my gosh, this is going to kill it. If we support this, it's going to kill our fan base, it's going to hurt our sponsorships. So they came up with this very tepid and yet unenforced protocol for the national anthem. Okay. Yeah, that really went over well, which it didn't, right? You know, so again, it hasn't,

it has never been enforced, as we see Eric Reed and Kenny Stills, and he's guys still kneeling, there's been no discipline. So now Roger Goodell didn't wait. He responded to the players basically saying, we're tired of it. You need to recognize your labor workforce. And you need to look at it. in your own house. So for Roger Goodell, so the player said that, but let's also go a little bit

into the weeds where I work and where people for the NFL, not for one of the 32 teams, for the NFL work, the black employees who have been working for change behind the scenes for years to become a more diverse workplace, to have diversity in its leadership, which there is almost none. We've been letting the NFL know, how can you sit there and get on teams to enhance the Rooney Rule and things like that? When your own house looks the way it does, and there are no shot collars, or very few shot callers, decision makers of color.

And you don't elicit the opinions of the people of color before you put out press releases before you make public statements. So you had that, and then the public awareness being made, the players in that video, Roger Goodell was like, man, you know what? Part of the reconciliation is acknowledging the mistake and then coming out and saying,

we recognize that you are there. So you haven't heard anything from these other owners, right? But the head of the actual NFL organization decided to make a 180. So we're seeing players on one side exercise their influence. We're seeing employees inside the NFL speak boldly. and more loudly than they have, especially the young people, Kevin. I cannot stress that enough.

And then we're seeing the head of the NFL make a stance. Now we're waiting, and you're hearing more and more players talk about it, now we're waiting for these individual owners. And we've seen some, Jed York, David Tepper, Carolina, but a whole lot of owners right now who are pretty much, you know, see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. And that's the next step. because players are watching.

I'm telling this accountability part is going to be a big, big step because people are watching. I think that part of that is that Jed York and David Tepper were already, and had already endorsed social justice and endeavors. And so I don't think that,

I think that it's the rank and file more hesitant owner who's never made a social stand in his life. Like them, them coming out and endorsing Roger Goodell's message, I think, is what a lot of players are looking at. And I don't necessarily see that coming. It's been almost a week at this point, and I just haven't seen that.

But as training camp start and as season gets closer and these owners have to give press conferences where they will be asked about it and they will be asked about it over and over again, the owners will be forced to make a decision on whether or not they're going to endorse these peaceful protest endeavors or whether or not they're going to go against it. I think it's fascinating to watch. You mentioned the younger generation. My general feeling on NFL coaches is they've built up this system that allows them to essentially boot out anything they don't like in a locker room by saying this isn't team first, all this stuff. And really it has robbed in some ways players of their individuality. And I think that that is starting to change.

And I think that even it's not just the statements from current players. It's not just a statement from current coaches. You saw what Andy Reid said when he said he's excited about the younger generation and how amped they are to change things. And that includes his quarterback who obviously he's going to support during all of this. I think that you even look down at the lower levels the last couple of weeks. And Iowa had essentially fired its strength coach, suspended him, because the players started speaking out about the program and what was going on. there. And before that, they were allowed, what are you going to talk about no distractions culture? They were allowed one pre-approved tweet a month or something. I mean, like, some of these

these football programs try to limit what players can say. And there's no way around that. And players aren't listening to that anymore. And I think that you saw that a little bit. This is a completely different scenario, but you saw that in Florida State, where essentially a player, a coach said one thing that didn't really mesh with. what the players had heard, and they started tweeting about it. And so we're not going to work out until this is resolved. I think that you're seeing a little more player empowerment that we've seen in other sports start to come into the NFL.

Do you think there's that coaches are going to be more eager and have been more eager to embrace the messages of the younger player, Steve? Tough to say. I mean, look, here's, and here's why I say that. I mean, I don't want to put a period on the end of the sentence because we're in the offseason right now, Kevin. Right. So players can do things in the offseason that aren't necessarily, you know,

there aren't the checks and balances that they typically are once we get into locker. So we can talk about peacefully protesting and we can talk about coaches embracing this or that right now. But once these players get back into their buildings and their own clubs, because as we know, there are 32 different cultures in the NFL. So I think these teams that have different leadership, you know, which always stems from ownership. And, you know, you've got certain cultures. I mean, there's a reason why teams repeatedly lose

and repeatedly hire and fire coaches. It's because the culture is not there. But if you have a culture like the 49ers have, right, you've got an owner who's progressive. And then you've got a head coach who's even more progressive and more open, you know, along with a general manager. And he really allows a lot of the ownership to go to the players because you trust them,

that's going to be very different than what maybe you have in a market like Jacksonville, conservative market, you might have a coach who's on the green mile. You know, you just don't know how it's going to work.

And again, I think the markets, if the owners are more concerned about their bottom line than their players and the messages being spread, which has been the case up until now, and like I said,

we're going to see if it continues to be the case because we're in the off season. We'll see. are these young players going to be as emboldened to say and do things when the next day they've got to go see their position coach or they've got to go into meetings. That's why, like I said, I'm not putting a period on the end of the sentence by any means. I don't even know if I'm putting a comma on things right now. Yeah, good way to put it.

Yeah, I mean, right now, for those of us in the English world, you know, that we are, we're probably in the phrase part of the stentist structure. you know, to see exactly how this is going to play out. I think that no matter what, player activism will be one of the major stories of the 2020 season, whether that's, you know, Adrian Peterson said that there's going to be a lot of kneeling and how the NFL deals with that or doesn't deal with that. They have, as you said, allowed players do with the last couple of years,

but obviously hasn't been front-page news like it was in 2016 and like it will be this year. I think that Donald Trump, and the election issues. I'm sure this will come up last week in a tweet, and I'm sure it will come up again. And I think that football has a way of finding itself in the culture war,

and this will only happen more over the next few months. But I'm curious what you think the next steps are for players and what we'll see. Will it be players asking their owners to make statements? Will it be players asking coaches for specific things or saying, hey, we're going to keep applying pressure on social justice issues during this season and we're not going to have to quote unquote

no distractions culture like a lot of teams ask for and maybe they're doing more during the season where are the next step Steve when you think about player activism in 2020 yeah look I think it's going to depend again on the culture of the team like the Minnesota Vikings okay so so their players know

that they are playing in the city which is ground zero for the current groundswell of things right so there are doing things in the community. They have met with law enforcement, which is something I would expect them to continue to do.

Whether they protest or not, who knows? Because I don't want these players to protest just to say they did it. Right? You know, like they did, remember that BS a couple years ago when Donald Trump came out and called the player sons of bitches and all the owners

and everybody linked arms and they took a knee. And they did it as a response where there was not nearly the conviction. Don't do something. you're not comfortable with or if you're not fully about. But, you know, I think you're going to see a lot of talk about voter registration, which is very important. We know the Dolphins and Stephen Ross, who his RISE organization,

did this with his players a couple of years ago. And I think it's a continuing thing. Tyron Matthew said him and Patrick Mahomes have already approached owner Clark Hunt and team president, Mark Donovan, about doing something that way to encourage a lot of voter registration. So that's probably going to be part of the, But I think this is where the players have got to hold themselves accountable. Are we just going to do this now because it is the offseason because we're in the moment?

Are we going to follow through? And again, anything, I think it all depends on the comfort level and how teams embrace it. You know, you see a team like the L.A. Rams, you know, we both live in Los Angeles. They have been so engulfed in the community, in part because they're in a new market, right? and they've had to indoctrinate themselves, but they've done so many things from, you know, building the new stadium, you know, working with a union there where more than 100 of the employees building it are formally incarcerated, you know.

So there's all kinds of different ways that can be done in terms of asking an owner to speak out. If the owner is not about it, then don't, you know, then don't front, you know, then don't perpetrate a fraud. You know, that's where as a player, you know what your owner is. is and you know what he's about, whether he does it or not, whether he does it with conviction. That's what I'm saying. I think accountability is the common theme I'm hearing from everyone from players to organizations like the NFL, NFL network, to the people in the streets.

They're watching. And if you are a phony, I think you'll be called on it. If you're about it, you're going to be called on it. And I do think with the, you know, the flame of this being an election season, as it was in 2016, when Cap first did not stand for the National Anthem, I think this is going to be a huge wedge, potentially a huge unifier among teams and players and coaches in the locker room. But, I mean, you've got to have a strong culture in the NFL to get through this and to do your jobs, which is to win for football. Yeah. And I think players will be able to see through any inauthenticity, as you said. If an owner is not about it and puts out kind of a weak statement, players might even consider

that worse. And you look at people who are leaders of men. And it doesn't really have to do with age. I was thinking about this last night. Andy Reid is not young. And he's obviously empowering his players to do this. Belichick turned over his team meetings this week to social justice causes and educating his players on that. Someone like Brian Flores, who comes to the Belichick tree, but he is obviously,

I spent some time with him in December and I was so impressed with him generally and just his presence. And, you know, one funny thing, this is separate from anything, but he was a little bit late to our meeting. And it happens all the time. You know this. And maybe about 10 minutes. And we sit down and normally when a guy's late, it's, hey, you know, late for, I was doing third down packages. is or I was, you know, I was talking my special teams guys or whatever, he left to go to his daughter's recital. And he just came back. And that's why he was late from it. And it's like, you don't hear that a lot in NFL facilities. But that's my, Brian, how impressed I was with Brian Flores the first time we met. But I want to say that, you know, when he comes out and says with that powerful statement, people

with loud opinions on Colin Kaepernick or Ceylon on George Floyd. And that was early. That was before we saw the whole crest. I'm excited to see different voices emerge in, in NFL leadership over the next couple of months. Look, Brian Flores right now, I've talked to so many players and like the amount of guys who aren't on the dolphins who want to play for him is here. I'm sure you've talked to guy

because he came out right after George Floyd's death. He didn't wait for the boilerplate press release, you know, kind of format to put something out. he called out the people who were barking over, be it media, whatever, even such things as people who were saying the incentivization to hire minority coaches under this kind of expanded Rooney rule. Where are you now? Where were you for Amad Arbor in Brianna Taylor?

And now George Floyd. He did not wait for permission. And he spoke it. And that's the authenticity. I mean, and it's out there. And everybody was like, that's a guy. We've seen people like Bill O'Brien, the head coach of the Houston Texans, who we know has had ownership issues are quite the contrary to what is going on publicly now saying,

my players are taking the day off to go to Memorial Services or the funeral for George Ford. We are going to do things. Deshawn Watson peacefully protesting. I'm with you. I'm right there. And you've seen that organization, JJ Wat, people take the lead. So again, we've seen some players step out, but let's not forget about some of the players who have been doing this a lot longer.

The Kenny Stills of the world, the Eric Reed's of the world. Okay, like I said, right now there is this wave, man. I mean, George Floyd was the freaking final straw and you feel it. But there have been people who have risked a lot before then. And, you know, we can go back to John Carlos and Muhammad Ali and all that. But let's look at some of the people in the NFL, the Kenny Stills, who maybe we haven't heard a ton from publicly right now. But they have been doing the work.

And they've been taking hits to their character, to possibly endorsement deals and things like that to, you know, to give us to give these guys a foundation to build on. So I don't want those guys to get lost in this. this moment right now either because I think it's highly important to recognize the work a lot of these players, the Anquam Boldens of the world, what they've already done. Yeah, no, I agree with you. And I think that this current wave of activism puts the spotlight back on that. I wanted to ask about that. You know, obviously you were there when Kaepernick did not stand. You were the person who

brought that story to the world. And I think things play out very differently if you're not there that night and start that story that that night and obviously all the things happened since then how much do you think about that night and how much is that night changed in your mind seeing everything that came after it the four years the four years since Steve crazy sounds man I think about it almost every day because you know cap and I spoke after the actual interview I mean we had just a conversation I'm 54 years old back then I was 50 years old cap was like 27 I've got kids almost his age. You know, right now I've got kids who are 27 and 25 and 24, all boys.

And listening to him and the bravery and the courage he showed because he knew, man, he knew by doing this. I don't know if he knew it was going to be as big and his and have the legs that it still continues to have. But he knew he could be risking at all. And that empowered me. You know, I'd already been, you know, in our organization talking about. about the need for enhanced diversity and decision-making positions. But, you know, we got a lot of the talk. We need to be better that type of conversation.

But, you know, that's where people like me and a lot of people, my building, we're like, no, we have to hold people accountable. And there have been changes, not because of me, but because of a lot of other people who decided to have the backbone. I think Cap inspired people in a lot of ways with that. And, you know, we heard back then, when this all shakes out, man, and Kaepernick's probably going to be on the right side of history. And I do think the people in the streets,

the players in the NFL, white, black, I mean, we're seeing Carson Wentz and Joe Burrow and all these guys. They feel emboldened such as, okay, I dare you to not give me a job like you did to Cap. I dare you. It's not going to happen. So now it's time. And that's where I think, again,

this generation of young people feel a little bit, more empowered because okay if you don't if you don't want to ride with me then we're going to do something to put the pressure on you to either get out or to change i mean we are in the cancel culture and be it something as crazy as what donald sterling did or an owner got booted out of the NBA for for being racist um to whatever i mean the pressure now is going to be felt and before that pressure came from sponsors and partners. And again, that's what I'm waiting to see. What owners are going to succumb like they did when Cap did this? And what owners, like a David Tepper, who canceled the security agency that worked with the Carolina Panthers for statements that

their CEO or whatever made? How many are you going to say, we don't need you? We can find somebody else. So, you know, again, I am so intrigued. Right? Now, it's the opposite. I'm off season. Right now things, you know, they are what they are, two months from now. Who's really going to be there? And I think that's how much, you know, I think of Cap all of the time in this moment as to so many other people because his name gets brought up every day, regardless of the discussion about how he, he let us, or at least tried to warn us, that this could be on the horizon. Yeah. And it's funny. You mentioned Wence and Burrough, and obviously they're never going to be the lead voices when we're talking about racism in America, but they are definitely, I thought

they were interesting sort of bellwethers when you look at, even someone like Ryan Tannahill, who was incredibly supportive of the movement. And one of the things he said that I thought found really interesting yesterday was he said he wished he knew more in 2016. And he wished he could have been more vocal in 2016 to support Kaepernick. And I think that's interesting now where people are regretting not being more educated back then. And I'm not, I'm sure Ryan Tanhill didn't dismiss it or anything like that. But I think that, again,

I think they just didn't, I think the rank and file NFL player, because, you know, there are only handful of guys on a percentage basis who were kneeling that season. I don't think the NFL really put a lot of thought into it in mass. And now I think that they are.

And I think that that's a, a very interesting shift for the league. And I think that it'll be interesting to see how that develops going forward. You know, Colin Kaepernick now is 32 years old. He worked out last November. You were there in Georgia. Obviously some complications of that workout, but he ended up working out eventually for certain teams. Do you see any path for him back to football or has that ship sailed?

You know, my heart of hearts, I feel that ship has sailed because, first off, if a team were to offer him a job, would it be legitimate or would it be, man, I feel bad for what I've done? Or let's call him the C's, you know, to me it would seem somewhat patronizing. But I don't know what Colin wants. I haven't spoken with him. I'm sure he wants to play. And if a team is going to make it legitimate, he may say even if it's not legitimate, let me go. going there and prove that I'm worthy. I mean, it's just like someone like me being told on a job interview, which has happened,

hey, we're bringing you in as a minority hire. Well, I may be a minority hire, but I'm going to make sure that I'm going to kick ass so much that the next person of color you bring in. You never have to say that again because you don't have to think about it. So maybe Cap takes that approach. It's going to be, you know, people are calling for an apology to Cap. Well, is Lee going to do that after reaching? a settlement, you know, collusion settlement.

Like, we apologize, are we admitting collusion? So, um, I just, I don't know where it's, it's going to, it's going to go. And, you know, I don't know if a team will offer CAP a job. I just, I don't have faith in it, man. Teams have had three years to do this. And they're just so worried about potentially disrupting their locker room because Cap could be a much more galvanizing player than the starter is in a locker room. He could be much more polarizing.

player than the starting quarterback is in a locker room. And the owners have already shown themselves. The owners have shown themselves. So I just, I would love to see it. I would love to see him get an opportunity. But I just, it's in my heart of heart. And this is just me not having any signs. It's just what I feel. I don't think any team's going to do it. I'll get you out of here on this, Steve. When you talk about building up diversity, at all levels of the game, whether that's league office, whether that's the coaching ranks, whether that's quarterback ranks, which has obviously been a focus. I did a story a couple of months ago on what Deshaun Watson, those guys call and his coach,

Quincy, they call it the black quarterback club, which I found just to be an amazing event and all that stuff. And one of the things Quincy said to me that I found so funny was it's not about making the best quarterback in the NFL be a black quarterback. That's happened before. It's currently happening. It's when the worst quarterback in the NFL is black. That's when their mission is accomplished because that means that the third quarterback on this team is not just randomly white because of inherent biases and that coaches like the guy or whatever.

I mean, it is when I talk to folks like Quincy or folks like, you know, Brian Flores about this stuff, who's obviously been very passionate about it. When I talk to those kind of people who are strong voices, it is really interesting to hear what steps they want to take. When you think about increasing diversity at all levels, where do you go first, Steve? Well, when I think about increasing diversity at all levels, I mean, some of the decision makers.

I mean, look, some of the tone-deaf statements, these teams are constantly making is because, you know, why don't you run these through people of color? that's why I always say I always default back to the Minnesota Vikings, especially when Kevin Warren, who is black, was the C-O-O there. He was the first and only ever black CEO-O. As we know, we don't have any, I've never had a black president of a team in the NFL. And Kevin told me, I mean, if you go to the Vikings offices,

now he's the Big Ten Commissioner, right. And you go to the Vikings offices. They probably have more women in position of power, more ethnicities, than any people in the building, whether it be Asian, whether it be black, whether it be native. And they're in decision-making position. So if you have an employee, let's just say you even have a mother who is feeling a certain way about something, you have somebody there who she can go to, who may be a mother herself, who understands it, right? And says, hey, look, take the day off, take a couple days off.

We'll figure this out. You need to get in the right mental headspace. And so that's what diversity does. I mean, when we see the NFL network put out something, and the four or five black people who have no decision-making power are like, oh, my God, how could we do that? Well, we could do that because nothing was wrong. Nothing.

And look, that's just, if it's all-white decision-makers, that's just their world. They may not think they're doing anything wrong. But at the same time, you know, every now and then, ask for, hey, what do you think about it? Is this okay? And, you know, prime example. So yesterday, and, you know, you hear about topic bars all the time.

That's the little topic bar that goes underneath an interview or whatever. And they said, Steve, should we put, is this how it affects African American cities or black? cities or black communities, I should say. I said, right now are you hearing about African American Lives Matter? No, you're hearing about Black Lives Matter. So let's use that as a barometer. And so the fact that somebody actually came to me now, that was like they're listening.

Okay, now they're understanding a little bit. And so I think that's where, you know, when organizations need to look at themselves, ask other organizations who've done it. You don't need to fire somebody. to hire somebody to replace that person. But identify people in your building, whether they're players, whether they're scouts, whether they're people working in your sales department. And ask them what their goals are.

Ask them, you know, if they wouldn't mind you running something by them. And if there's someone you think that can make your overall operation better, promote them or give them some type of influence. where they can impact proper decision. So instead of being in crisis mode or damage control, you've done everything the right way. We're slowly seeing it in some places, but in the NFL, too often it's to make the person

who made a bad decision feel better about him or herself. I'm going to hire this black person just so I can feel better about myself because I've been wrong. Do it for the right reasons. And the right reasons are to be. make your whole operation better. Yeah. And changes at the top with an impact changes at the bottom because I think the part of it, oh, there's not enough, you know, black coordinators because there aren't enough black quality control, this argument, there's not enough black quality control guys because,

you know, the guys who are at the bottom wrong of coaching, it's all somebody's son or somebody's nephew or whomever. And, and that's part of the systematic problem. I mean, there's just almost everywhere you look, there's a problem. And, and I think, you're, and I think, you're, and I think that my hope is that some of these problems can begin to get fixed soon and that this can be a catalyst in some of these areas. Steve Weiss, senior correspondent for the NFL network, thank you very much for joining us. Thanks for having me on, Kevin. Nora Princeati, staff writer at the Ringer on her 11th day as a Ringer employee. Nor, how are you? I'm doing pretty well, Kevin. Very happy to be here with you and 11 days in at the Ringer.

So we just did a segment with Steve Weish and we're going to do the most important storylines of this season. And we're going to assume that player activism is number one on both of our lists because that will probably define the NFL season how players continue to keep the pressure up on social justice initiatives, how that develops in an election year. I think that there's just, I think that's going to be the focal point of more weeks than it's not the focal point. But when we're talking about the actual season and on field and everything related to that,

we wanted to unpack the other top storylines in the NFL. And we have five each. Nora, why don't you start us off? OK-dokey. So my number one story of the 2020 NFL season will be coronavirus. Very fun story. Yeah. Yeah.

Love to start things off. Right. So obviously coronavirus is going to impact the season in a lot of different ways. And I think we're kind of talking about it in two main categories. One, how all the different things people have to do to stop or reduce the spread of coronavirus are impacting preparations. But what I'm really interested in is frankly, what's going to happen when an NFL player gets coronavirus? Because the NFL has told us that they are expecting positive tests. And, you know, they'll tell us. And that players should be comfortable with, yeah, the idea that life will go on after that happens.

Well, right. And I think right now we're talking about it as something that the league and the players association have to talk about, something that the medical people have to come up with protocols for. But what I'm thinking about is, and I certainly hope this, doesn't happen. But what happens? It's not unreasonable to think that a high profile quarterback

or other very high profile player will get this at some point. And what are the rules going to be? I mean, last week, Bruce Ariens and you can never really tell with Bruce Aaron's. This is the weirdest quote of the offseason.

It's incredible. I'm so glad we're talking about this. He said that he's thinking about having a third quarterback and keeping him in a bubble. A quarantine quarterback. A quarantine quarterback. Which it's not the most, it is simultaneously the most unreasonable thing and not the most unreasonable thing at all. And I'm just thinking that if we have a team, you know, take the bucks, all this hype, all

this planning, they go big in the off season, they've got Tom Brady, then because of all of these circumstances they could find themselves in a session where, you know, the breaking case of emergency quarantine quarterback is all of a sudden starting a primetime NFL game is just a situation that is so unprecedented. I can't quite fathom how people would respond to it, even if there are rules and guidelines set out for how the league and the players and the teams are going to handle this. So that, while of course I don't want it to happen, the likelihood is that it will, some way, shape, or form? And boy, am I curious in a morbid sort of way.

I think that there's two separate things here. I think that, first of all, quarantine quarterback is a pretty good gig. Because the way Bruce Ariens described it is, he's out of the room. He's just sort of a reserve guy who's not in the facility in case there's an outbreak of coronavirus. And then he would play, if only needed, and he would draw a steady pitch. check. I don't exactly know who you'd want for your ideal quarantine quarterback, but that's, that's another sort of separate issue. I think Bruce Ariens was just being Bruce Ariens in the

situation. I don't think he's actually going to do this. Adam Shefford did have that report that teams are worried about depth at quarterback because of this. This is around draft time. And that maybe there's, there's a different way to approach that. I don't know from a testing standpoint. I mean, Listen, the good news for the NFL from all of these perspectives is they don't have to go first. The NBA, the Premier League, the NHL, if baseball ever figures out if they still do baseball anymore, they would presumably have some data on this. They can figure out what needs to be done from a medical perspective and the NFL can decide in July, in August, whenever it is.

as far as what the actual protocol would be if there's a positive test. There's still so much we don't know about this virus and how, you know, it seems like every week there's a new report on how it spreads or, or this spread among asymptomatic people or whatever. And so we're probably going to know more by August and September. And then teams can from there figure out the least important part of all of this, whether or not they have to have a third quarterback on the roster. We're in a global pandemic, and like, you know, 9 millionth on the list of concerns is the third

quarterback in the Bucks room and where he's situated. But I do think that it's one of those things that NFL teams will have to at least keep an eye on as far as that goes. But I think that, you know, look, if there's a positive test in the NBA and it keeps superstar out of a playoff round or whatever, I think you're going to see. more heightened medical safety and maybe you put the 53 guys in a bubble, something like that. Maybe you have more quarantine measures. I don't know.

I don't know the answer, but what I do know is that the NFL will get to seal other sports handle this before figuring out what they're going to be able to do. What I feel like I know is that if quarantine quarterback does become a job, if it pays well, Chase Daniel will figure out a way to be back guy. Chase Daniel is building up. He's getting an antibody test right now. All right. You're going to go next? I want to kind of draft off of that because I'm intrigued to see how these teams

kind of navigate the Corona offseason, so to speak, because it came out today. Tom Pelliserra confirmed what we already knew, which is the Obino OTAs. We pretty much knew this already. because, well, OTA is supposed to be happening right now and they're not happening. So they weren't going to have them on 4th of July weekend or whatever. They're just going to start training camp. It's going to be a uniform date around 47 days for the opener.

So teams like the Patriots start on July 28th. What happens with the preseason will be interesting? It looks like they're going to shorten it. I saw a headline today. I was like, Jared Goff is fine with the shortened preseason. Yeah, they're all pretty much fine with the short and preseason except the guys who are like 79th on the roster and trying to get more game reps. And that's unfortunate situation.

You can put that in the same bucket as the undrafted rookie free agents who don't get time to shine. It's a tough year for those guys. But I think pretty much everybody else is okay with skipping two or three preseason games. There will be no joint practices, which I've seen some grumbling about among coaches. But we're in a global pandemic. I think we're going to be okay without joint practices for one summer. I think that we're going to get through this. guys, okay?

And so, but how these teams deal with this, and there's something I've talked about a million times, but, you know, listen, Bill Bellochek knew exactly what he needed to do in 2011 with the lockout shortened offseason, basically switched the defense and streamlined into a more simple defense so the players could learn it. That is the kind of advantage that smart coaches are going to have, or veteran teams. Or, you know, I had Will Blackman on this podcast a couple weeks ago, he was saying, veterans love this. They don't want to have to work out on May 15th.

This is awesome. And so if you're the Ravens, and you already had some cohesion last year and you had some talent, and you had a guy like Calais Campbell who doesn't need a lot of smoothing out to fit into the locker room or fit into the system, like that's an advantage. I think that the teams that were good last year will be good this year. And the smart coaches will be good because they're always good,

but they're going to have better plans for this. I think that the teams that figured out what Zoom should look like and how it should be implemented into the system will have an advantage. And I just think that we're going to find out really quickly who had a plan for this offseason, who didn't. I think by September 20th, it's almost like I'm watching the golf this morning. And some of these guys just clearly hadn't hit a ball in like four months. And they're just spraying it all over the course.

On like September 13th, we're going to be like, this coach had no idea what they were doing in the offseason. Yeah, I found it interesting to see what the Saints have done, ignoring the ways that Drew Brees and the Saints have been in the news more recently. But, you know, when this all began, Sean Payton, who of course had coronavirus, basically said, this is going to be a big deal. Get lost. Get your stuff done. Come back in July.

And while that's a team with a lot of veterans and a lot of consistency, and they know what they're doing and they have their system. in place, that still stood out to me because it's just so rare that we see an NFL coach abdicate control in any way. So I think it'll be really interesting to watch how that works out who had those plans in place like you were talking about. But also, if you're not one of those teams like the Saints, if you're a team with a new coach, I don't know if that's possible, you know, to just create that scaffolding overnight if you don't know your veteran players,

if you don't know your roster as well. I'm hesitant to jump on the Cowboys hype train because of that because I'm just worried that Mike McCarthy doesn't have the capability to do everything he needs to do to get his team up to speed and install the system and all that because he just hasn't seen them for three months.

I think that's really, I wouldn't say it's overlooked because it's been talked about, but I think that when we're talking about which teams are going to be good in 2020, it's hard for me to go on a limb and say the Cowboys, even though I think they have Super Bowl talent, are a Super Bowl team because I just frankly don't know. I need to ask you, Nora, being around the Patriots and all that,

how is Belichick tailored this offseason? I mean, he's kind of, if there's something to figure out, he will have figured it out as far as teaching and implementing everything. Is there anything the Patriots have done this off season that has impressed you? Well, I think in general, it's just been the idea that you don't make a big deal out of something you can't change. So every time Belichick talks, he says something along the lines of, this is sort of like the lockout.

We've done this before. We've dealt with situations like this before. We're going to do the best that we can. And it's a simple thing. It's not particularly innovative sounding, but it does trickle down. And we'll see if it helps keep all of those guys on track. but I think in general

they're just kind of going hard on the message that we're not going to use it as an excuse and we're not even really going to talk about it all that much. Yeah, and the way they practice, when I talk to guys who have played there and you've certainly talked to more than I have having been on the beat and doing such a great job on it,

I think that the way they practice, you could go either way. no one practices more situational football than them. No one practices, hey, it's fourth down at the goal line. We're going to call this play. I mean, there's a reason the Malcolm Butler thing happened, right? Like, they understand situations better than the Malcolm Bellar interception, not the Malcolm Butler benching. Although I'm sure there is a Malcolm, the reason the Malcolm Butler was benched. But the Malcolm Beller intercept. There's a reason that that happened. They understand situations better than anybody. Can you translate that to a Zoom call? Probably. And if anybody can, it's going to be Bill Belichick. I think that teams that are more reliant on hitting in practice or toughness

or trying to establish a type of physicality, they might have a bigger problem trying to replicate that over Zoom. But again, if anyone can figure this out, it's Bell Strike, that's why I'm so intrigued to see how the Patriots handle this. And again, Sean Payton's really good coach. In fact that they canceled OTAs is interesting to me too. All right.

Number two, what's number two for you? Well, speaking of Bill Belichick, my number two is Bill Belichick, the 2020 Patriots, what are we going to learn about what Bill Belichick does with a blank slate post Brady? And the way that I've kind of been thinking about it is it's like for the better part of 20 years, once Brady had been established there, he had a rent control department on Fifth Avenue. You can't complain. There's no better situation, but maybe you can't put in the kitchen of your dream. Right.

So now he's got to move downtown, but he's got the architects in there. He's talking to the tile guy. He gets to buy his own furniture and put it wherever he wants. And we are going to learn, I hope, a little bit more about his real aesthetic football sensibilities to weigh over to send his metaphor. and I'm curious to see if that is shown more in the way that they approach defense or offense. And what I mean by that is that we started to see last season that Belichick maybe had a little bit less confidence in Brady and he was going all in on the defense. And there was a time last October where I remember him in one press conference saying both they didn't have a rock. spot at that time for Ben Watson. And then he also said, I think it was in response to something

about somebody's snap count. He said, we'll stop looking at the snap counts because we're going 20 deep on defense. Show me a team that goes 20 deep on defense in a game. And it was really interesting to think about because he was saying, okay, we have basically nothing at tight end. And we don't have a roster spot for Ben Watson. But we do have a roster spot. for Shalit Calhoun, and that feels more important. So it could go further in that direction where they're just going to go all in on the defense and say, this is our team, this is the strength of our team, and we will put all the resources into that and get by on offense.

Or maybe they will try to take advantage of some of the athleticism that Jared Sidham has if he does win that job, maybe they will get a little bit more creative. And I don't know what exactly that would look like, but it could go in a lot of directions. And I do think it will teach us something about what Bill Belichick actually believes about football right now. And I think that's fascinating. I think Belichick is most fascinating person in football only because no one sees the future better than him, but no one understands the past better than him as well. and because of that, you kind of don't necessarily know where he's going at any point.

And you could say, okay, he's going to understand modern spread principles or how to take advantage of modern defenses. Or he might just go back to the single wing or the wingtie or whatever. You know, I was looking at a press conference transcript last night. I'm sure you were there for this when he was talking about his dad's football book collection and going to the Hall of Fame and looking at the archives. and they would, he would learn about the single wing. He played under single wing coaches. This is a guy who thinks about a ton of different formations.

And if you ask him about that sort of thing, he will give one of those 4,000 word answers. And then he'll obviously just not even answer a question about, you know, Julian Edelman's impact or whatever. But I think that generally, this is a guy who is capable of coming up with any scheme. And that's why I'm so excited to see this and what he does. And I talked a couple weeks ago on the coaches,

podcast about how my favorite Belichick game has always been the Jacoby Brissette game against the Texans where he just completely stuffed Bill O'Brien in a locker with Jacoby Brissette. And I just, I find that more fascinating when he's got a McGuiver himself out of a situation. And that's why I don't think that they're going to be necessarily Super Bowl contenders, but I think that there's going to be some really, really interesting schematic and innovative things there. I think that, listen, one of the. reasons that that he's relied on two-way players and he said this, whether that's Mike

Vrable or Julian Edelman or Troy Brown, he's because that's what they did in the 20s. And he understands football history so well that you don't need, if Mike Vrable can be your best option on that play, just make him your best option on that play at tight end. There's no, if you're down defensive backs and you actually think that Julian Edelman or Troy Brown is going to be better than signing some random dude, you can do that because that's a part of football history when they essentially that they were one put. tune sports like soccer is now. Like that's what it was.

And Belichick understands that. And so I'm intrigued to see it's almost not worth guessing what he's going to do, except to say it can get, it can get weird. Can I tell you the weirdest thing about that Jacoby Berset game? You may. So the Texans were like two and a half hours late to show up to that game because Bill O'Brien, who has lived in Massachusetts, had them stay. in Waltham, which is a town on the other side of Boston, basically, from Foxborough.

So they're fighting commuter traffic and game day traffic. And the whole Texans bus just gets stuck for hours. And they all roll in like minutes before kickoff. And it was, it was, is this like the chiefs losing their equipment? Yes. Yeah. But they were more, the chiefs were less at fault than the Texans were in this case. because I thought that was people in Massachusetts love to talk about the traffic,

and it seemed unforgivable. Well, and then they got beat by four touchdowns by Jacobya reset. You hate to see it. All right. Speaking of Patriots quarterbacks, I'm talking myself more into the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. At the beginning of this offseason, when Tom Brady goes to Tampa Bay,

I started to talk about them as an NFL contender, NFC contender, only in the context of Tom Brady wins a Super Bowl more times than he doesn't over the past couple of years, and I'm just going to trust Tom Brady. The more I think about this, the more it makes sense that they can truly, truly content, and that maybe I was just overlooking everything about them. Levante David is really good. I was going to do some tape the other day of him. Mike Evans, PFF had this the other day.

One player has double-digit receptions on go routes over the past two years since Mike Evans. Can Tom Brady, you know, connect on an efficient go-rout right now? We'll see. But I think that Mike Evans is the type of guy who's going to help him. He's going to be significantly better than anybody in New England the last couple of years. The defensive line is a, it was a top five defensive line in the NFL last year. The offensive line was bolstered in the draft, and I think is pretty good. At some point, and it's hard for me to, I don't want to make this connection,

but it almost is the same connection I made with the Browns last year, and I was totally wrong about it. But at some point, I look at the roster and I just don't see a lot of holes. And now with the Browns, the problem was they just, their offensive line was terrible and Baker regressed and that's that. But when I look at this Bucks roster, I see it's a completely different scenario. because this is a good team trying to go to great instead of a horrible franchise trying to go to good. But when I think about this Bucks team, I'm starting to talk myself into the fact that they really could win the NFC if everything breaks right.

They have a good coach from Bruce Ariens. I am getting on the Bucks train. The other thought I have is that I was worried about chemistry and all that. And no one values chemistry more than Brady and, you know, the folks I've talked to, who will go work out with him at UCLA or USC in June who say he gets upset if he throws a ball half an inch off the target line, whatever. I was worried that in the Corona off season, he wouldn't be able to do that. And it turns out he's just at Tampa Bay High School doing it.

And I think that they're going to be fine. And the chemistry will be built up. So I'm starting to talk myself into the books. Where are you on that, Nora? I think they're going to be good. I picked the Saints. And I think the chemistry thing, I'm a little bit less confident than you seem to be that going to a high school a few times

is going to be a real replacement for what Brady likes with receivers, but it's certainly a lot more talent than he's had in a long time. But that to me is a little bit of an unanswered question. And I think as much as you can go through that roster and say there really aren't that many holes, you can do the same thing for another team in the division. So I'm still taking the Saints, but I think they'll be good. And I think the biggest thing that I'm curious to see is what are those quarterback receiver relationships like and how quickly can they get to a good place. All right. Number three.

All right. The Denver Broncos. I am confused about the Denver Broncos right now. So I'd like to talk to them and hopefully work through some of my feelings. So it's pretty clear what they're doing. And I thought their draft and their off season was cool and fun and had a lot of individual moves. Would you say pretty clear? You mean they're going in on their quarterback and just building around them, right? Yes. And adding just a bunch of really, really, really fast people. And I am a woman of simple tastes. And I think when someone can run really fast, that's cool and fun.

So they draft Jerry Judy, KJ Hamler, Albert. I can never say this right. But Akulbunum, I think the tight end, who is the fastest, side end at the combine. And, you know, they already have Cortland Sutton, Noah Fant, Philip Lindsay, tons and tons and tons of what looks like good skilled position players. So one, we're going to see with all of this support, all these guys around him, can Drew Locke be better? But two, even if he is, my question is, does that just get extrapolated out to even if the quarterback can take advantage of all of these additions, are they just kind of a B-minus version of

the Chiefs? So how sustainable of a strategy to build is this? And what's the end goal? Because the end goal can't be a wild card spot every year for the next 10 years. Well, here's the problem with that. When you're in a division with Patrick Mahomes, my advice is to get out of a division with Patrick Mahomes. Like that's the clearest path towards towards being a contender. And I think that being a B-minus version of the chiefs is as good as you're going to get for the foreseeable future

unless something wacky happens in Kansas City and things get shaken up. Are the Broncos going to be better this year? Absolutely. They're doing what you should do if you really believe in a young quarterback. I really like Jerry Judy. I like the bolstering of the offensive line.

I think Graham Glasgow is a nice signing. I think Bill Barnwell, had them at the number three offseason this year, which I think is, they definitely had a good offseason. I like the value signing of Melvin Gordon when you can get it really good. Listen, I'm not high on paying running backs, but at some point running backs become so cheap, good running backs become so cheap that they become a bargain. And I think that Melvin Gordon is definitely a viable candidate to be in that zone. And I think it comes down to Drew Locke. And I think that it comes down, you know, listen, the biggest jump is always from year one to year two. Analytics say this.

There's not really a jump from year two to year three. That has been an anomaly. And I think that if he gets better, this is a team they can win double-digit games. I thought Pat Schumer being hired was incredibly important. Remember how good he was in Minnesota before he was a head coach and probably shouldn't have been. But I think that they had the makings for a nice sleeper team. John Elway is not impressive with this team building the last couple of years. But at some point, I stopped looking at John Elwood being a bad team builder and to start looking at this roster. And I kind of like it. My only concern is I'm not sure that they have more roster talent than the Chargers. And I don't see the NFC, the AFC West as a three playoff team.

I think that you're, I think that there's, there's a chance that this is just an improving good team that doesn't really get over the hump this year. Or they can just really, maybe they need an expansion team and then they can get out of the division. 100%. Or just petition it. Just petition. Or it just be like a college team and just join a different conference tomorrow.

Just be like we're now joining the AAC. Yeah, exactly. I was asking agent recently, like, how would you negotiate her running back right now? And he said, I would tell him to play quarterback. And that's kind of like your answer. answer. Someone reminded me on Twitter recently that a couple of years ago I came up with a solution for everybody that if a very young person is about to play running back, we put them in soccer. And that solves everything because then we would win the World Cup, but also they would be rich

beyond their wildest imaginations. It's perfect. It's a perfect solution. They would make, they would make like $50 million a year playing for Manchester City. They get the money that they say richly deserve. We would win the World Cup. And then we can just use converted wide receivers to play. We can do it. Everybody goes to Thai Montgomery route. And it's just like, this guy's not very good receivers.

He's now running back at the NFL level. This is, this is I just solved the whole thing. It's brilliant. That's how you get. That's how Melvin Gordon gets his riches is that 20 years ago he decides to go play for IACs. All right. What's next?

Oh, wait, I'll do mine. So this is related to Brady. And it's something that I, I think that, 2019, this is something I staked out early, 2019 was about the passing of the torch. And part of the reason that the quarterback position was so fascinating last year is that what Breeze and Brady are doing and what Manning did and what Philip Rivers did until the wheels fell off a little bit last year,

and we'll get to that in a second, what they did was unprecedented. Every time Tom Brady throws a pass, he's basically breaking a record set by Warren Moon or Vinay Testa Verdi. I don't know because this is all uncharted territory. I don't know when the wheels fall off. You know, I think that in most situations, last year 538 did a really good study about this, but in most situations,

the players who have a gradual decline in old age, it's because their team decided to do less around them. Dan Marino, 1998, had 280 yards per game, which was among the lowest marsive's, according to 538. They started running the ball more. The Saints did this, obviously, with Breeze. The Patriots tried to emphasize the running game,

especially in 2018. It's the reason they took a running back in the first round. There's reason they threw to running backs more. And I'm intrigued to see how this develops. Are the Colts the type of team that are going to build around their old quarterback really effectively in a way that the Chargers didn't necessarily do and that Rivers try to do too much? And that may have been a Rivers problem and not necessarily a Colts problem.

Excuse me, a Rivers problem, not necessarily a charterist organizational problem. But I'm intrigued to see how these teams handle these old quarterbacks. I think that the model is probably what the Saints have been doing, where you invest in backup quarterbacks with Teddy Bridgewater and now with James Winston and also having Taysam Hill, who they've given $10 million to. And I will never stop mentioning that. I think that when you look at Tampa Bay, I'm intrigued to see how they handle everything.

And do they make, do they want Brady to do a lot because he can because he has Mike Evans? Quarterbacks tend to fall off a cliff. This is something that Kevin Cole is written about in PFF and all that. And I'm intrigued to see where that cliff is. And I'm intrigued to see what the upper limit is. There's a reason Brady has said he wants to play to his 46, it has to do with mechanics and Tom House and Nolan Ryan and all this stuff,

not worth going into here. but the age comes for us all. The only thing undefeated is Father Time and the Blackjack table, as we know. And I think that I'm intrigued to see who, so to speak, can stay upright enough and stay productive enough to make it to 2021 of that group. And I would also, by the way, not necessarily put Aaron Rogers in that group because he's younger, but when the clock starts ticking as soon as Jordan Love gets drafted. And so I'm intrigued to see who makes it to 2021 of that group, how those teams handle that and where the cliff is, so to speak. So first of all, what was that Blackjack saying?

I believe Charles Barkley has said that. I'm going to look it up right now. It's the only two things are under the Blackjack table? No, no, no. The only two things undefeated are Father Time and the Blackjack table. things that win every single time. I get it. Yeah.

I thought Charles Barkley said it once and now I can't find it. He may have just said it on TV one time and I remember him saying it like 10 years ago. I cannot find a website quoting him on this. It's a good quote. This seems like it might have been like a dream you had or something. I wish I dreamed quotes good enough like that. All right. So where are we on old quarterbacks, Nora?

Okay. Anyway, I'm with you. I think it'll be fascinating to watch. I think particularly for the guys, you know, like Rivers, like a Brady who are, this is their final act and they're going to a new place. It's about the support that's around them. But particularly if the support is built to allow them to be who they are, basically. Philip Rivers at this point in his career is not going to suddenly become a quarterback

who doesn't take risks and who throws very few interceptions. So I'll be very curious to watch, for instance, how does someone like Michael Pittman Jr. fit into that offense? And how quickly in this changed off season can he get up to speed

because it's not just that for a quarterback like Rivers to make the most of a new situation. He needs just support and period around him. He needs guys that can allow his particular strengths and weaknesses to be enhanced or mitigated. So it's never a good idea to get an older quarterback and think that he's going to change. They're sort of like old billionaires in that way. It is what it is. So I think that'll be something to watch particularly.

particularly when there is a lot of projection just because of how different things have been this off season. I will say I want to go back to your metaphor about the Fifth Avenue apartment because I've often compared quarterbacks to real estate in a sense that I've always compared rookie or sorry quarterback contracts, veteran quarterback contracts to Manhattan real estate in a sense that every time you think that it's just too expensive, somehow someone pays more for it. Like it just continues to rise.

There is no going. Everyone's always like, this is a bubble. This Ryan Tannahill was making too much money. Kirk Cousin's making too much money. And then it's like, no, dude, turns out that there's another suitors who are going to pay them more money. So that's my real estate. Someone internationally is going to just buy a bunch of stuff up and go motorcycles there. As one does.

I will say I have found the Charles Barcliffe quote. He said it while announcing the All-Star starters in 20, and it is somehow stuck in my brain. Okay. There's a lot to unpack there. I don't know why. I don't remember what I had for dinner last night, but I remember Charles Barkley saying this in 2010.

So the only thing undefeated is father time in the blackjack table. Let's get to our next time. Charles Sparkley, 2010. I will, this is a good segue for me to tell you something that I've been debating whether or not to tell you, even though we have now figured out that you did not dream this. The night that I knew I was going to be working at the ringer, I was so excited, cloud nine, having trouble falling asleep.

And then I had the weirdest dreams. And one of them, you taught me how to use some sort of like proprietary stats package on a computer. And then we both first into song and sang Carly Simon's ear so vain together as a duet. So I'm going full Brett Farber and Aaron Ruff. I'm just not teaching you anything. So that would never happen. I really, I was for so long on the side of I will never tell Kevin that this happened. I'm going to freeze you out in a locker room.

I will never help you on anything. When Will Buckman was on a couple weeks ago, he said Charles, Charles Woodson for like the first year was just like, I'm not helping you're trying to take my job. I'm just going to do that. Okay. I'm just kidding. I will teach you the stats package. Whatever the proprietary stats package is, I'll teach you about it.

and Rogers in this metaphor. I'm fine. I'm Brett Farf. All right. Anyway. Danny Highfitz. Danny Highfitz is Jordan. Danny Hyfitts is Jordan Love. All right. Go for your next one. Speaking of young quarterbacks.

All right. Yeah, exactly. So the 2018 quarterback class, Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold, Josh Allen, Josh Rosen, can't forget about him. Lamar Jackson. Can we, can we not? Can we not forget about Josh Rosen? I really don't want to.

You can forget about Mason Rudolph if you want to. If that's important to you, I'm not going to stop you. So basically, most of these guys, for one reason or another, the jury's still out on all of them. And so it goes from Baker regressing last year, but having a good debut and still seeming like a guy who, in a better situation with better coaching and a better offensive line this year,

probably is a good candidate to bounce back, I would certainly say. Then you've got from one like Josh Allen, who I think his team has done a really admirable job building around him, but we're going to learn whether or not he's just always going to hold them back. I don't think Josh Allen's ever going to be the type of quarterback that elevates the talent around him, but will they be totally hamstrung by him or not? it's possible that if he gets a little bit better with the downfield accuracy, he can take better advantage of the fact that he does have a good arm.

And maybe that means he is a longer term solution for the bills and they can actually compete for the ASE East. And then, you know, Lamar Jackson, I think we know is very good. But if he continues to make progress, like he had a jump in his accuracy from year one to year two. if he has another similar one to year three, then we're starting to talk about Mahomesian level value. And it doesn't change whether or not he's a potential franchise quarterback for the Ravens, but it does change what the NFL is going to look like because it makes him from one of this pool of very important players to truly one of the top,

very small handful of guys. So it's just interesting to me that pretty much top to bottom, those guys are unanswered questions. I mean, I think we know however the Sam Darnold thing works out, the Jets will make the wrong choice. But whichever direction that goes in remains to be seen. So there's just a lot that we can learn. And it's coming up on the point where contract decisions will have to be made about those guys from the next couple of years. and I think this year will be pivotal for pretty much all of them. So a couple of things.

Number one, we know that 2018, despite being two years ago, was a hilariously flawed year for evaluating quarterbacks. And the fact that we've already learned that is refreshing. Lamar Jackson is the winner. Now, we've unpacked the 2018 draft class highlighted on a podcast with her solo a couple weeks ago. Again, you're two. to year three jumps are not that common. Troy Ackman did it. A couple other folks have done it. But it's year one to year two is the big jump. And you kind of know what you have by year two.

This is an observation I've noticed over the past couple of weeks. Jets fans get offended when you compare Darnold to Josh Allen. And Bill's fans get offended when you compare Josh Allen to Sam Donald. And I don't necessarily know what that says about either quarterback, except to say that I think that they both have talked themselves into their quarterback to a interesting degree. I'll say interesting degree. And that one of the more intriguing storylines for me is organizational buy-in on those guys. What happens when they come due for extension. You know, look, I think Joe Douglas has done a great job building around Sam Donald. Is Sam Donald going to be a super duper star quarterback? I don't think so. I don't think

Josh Allen will either. But I think that at least this year, Joe Douglas has, you know, took over at a weird time basically last summer. He didn't have control of last year's draft. And I think that that puts them behind the eight ball a little bit. But I think generally, both of these teams have done a nice job putting their quarterback in position to succeed. And now it's a of those quarterbacks being as good as their fan base thinks they are. I agree with that. And I trust Joe Douglas, too, but there's just a consistent aura of jet-seiness that I have skepticism that will be easy to overcome.

It's an enduring, it's an enduring thing. It's like, you remember interstellar? An interstellar, they were basically like, the only thing that endures through time is love. I would also say that jetziness is in the hunt there for, enduring throughout time. All right. Fed's the minute. Here's my question.

I'm intrigued to see what happens and how the young coaches are ranked at the end of 2020. Because I talked about this on the coaches' podcast two weeks ago with Danny and Pat. But I found it fascinating that I put a poll up on Monday after the Super Bowl or something like that,

sometime in February. And I was like, who would you rather have McVeigh or Shanahan? And it was like 90% Shanahan. And if you had done it a year earlier, It would have been absolutely flipped. Nobody was, even though we all knew that Kyle Shanahan was a great play caller and a good head coach, it just hadn't popped for him. And so I'm intrigued to see, A, if Sean McVeigh can have another coaching job like he did the first two years,

where we're reminded how simply good he is at getting guys open and making easy throws for his quarterback. With the roster changes, with the fact that we know they're not loaded like they were a couple of years ago, I think that the table is set for him to have a coaching job similar to win his first two years where he really exceeded expectations. 11 wins in his first year, 13 wins in his second year, and obviously the Super Bowl birth. I want to see what he can come up with. It's almost a minor league version of the Belichick entry where it's like, okay, what else you got? Because there have been a lot of guys who've come into this league with a couple good ideas. Chip Kelly is one of them.

and they just haven't kept, they haven't kept progressing with new ideas. I think Sean McVeigh is smarter than Chip Kelly in that regard, and I think that they're going to be fine. I think I'm intrigued to see that there those other young coaches who get in the mix there. Is can Matt LaFleur do something with Aaron Rogers where he's obviously trying to do a little more Shanahan stuff? That's why he's drafting tight ends and running backs and trying to get bulkier in the offense, is that he's kind of have a little physicality there. I'm intrigued to see if Matt Lerfer, who went to the answer championship game, can have that kind of jump.

Does Zach Taylor look like a genius because all of a sudden he gets Joe Burrow and T. Higgins, he already has AJ Green, and they can start spreading those guys out and using Joe Burroughs vision. And it's really easy. Does Zach Taylor look like a smarter guy? Do we, I mean, listen, I already think Brian Flores is a really freaking good coach. But does his defense and the way they've built that out was Xavier Howard and Byron Jones? Is that so good this year that we're talking about him as one of the best coaches? who's been hired in the last couple of years.

I'm fascinated to see how this develops. It's almost like the young quarterbacks thing where there's such a concentration of great young football minds that I just want to see what this looks like. Does Kingsbury look good now? I presume Kyler takes a step. And all of a sudden he's got D'Andra Hopkins and we're talking about that hire in a different way.

I just think that the number of young coaches right now is really fascinating to watch. I agree with you. and it feeds a lot into what we're talking about with the coronavirus stuff. I don't, I'm not super high on the Panthers chances, but one thing, you know, I don't think we're calling Matt Rule a young coach in the same way that some of these other guys are. But with so many of the coaches coming from college recently being like the scheme

lord guys, and that's a little bit different from how we think about Rule, that's one where I am curious to watch it just because he's a people person. He's a connections person. He's a, I will pop into your meeting room and have a conversation with you guy to guy at any moment person. And with everything that will have been changed this year, I'm curious if it will eventually impact

what we value in the coaches that come from college and maybe bring back into the forefront a touch. These are big sort of C. like jobs in a lot of ways and having those people person traits could be really important. Yeah, I agree.

I just don't know what's going on with Carolina's roster and I'm just going to stay away from them. This might be a longer rebuild there. Glad to see they get rid of the Jerry Richardson statue though. And the Panthers. I'm not glad about the Panthers, but I'm just noting

because a lot of people have been asked. I feel like there's a problem with many things when someone was like the Jerry Richardson statue is coming down. And I said, which Jerry Richardson statue? Because there's two. There's one in South Carolina where they have their training camp too. So, you know, we could tear that one down too. A lot of bronze. A lot of bronze. A lot of bronze has been wasted on Jerry Richardson. All right. What's your fifth? All right. Well, we started on the light. know with coronavirus and

ending on an equally light note with should Gronk have stayed retired and you don't like a CBS show I adore Rob Grim Cousby I have to admit every time I read some hurts a little bit because he went through a lot

and his body was in bad shape and I just really I'm an optimist. So what I'm hoping is that he will have more flexibility in Tampa Bay than he did in New England to get some veterans days off. Not be on the field all the time. You know, we've heard Bruce Arians say that they're going to play a lot of two tight end, maybe even three tight end, he said recently. But they have Cameron great, no Jay Howard. So my hope is that this act for Gromk is going to be mostly as Tom Brady's friend and that he's not going to get hit a lot.

And I just really like Grom. Vib's guy. It's really fun. And I don't want him to make me sad. This is a guy who threatened retirement if he was going to get straight to the Lions. Like I think he cares about where he is. I think he cares about probably winning. I think he cares about

situation. I think this is a really good situation for him. And I think they can do some load management stuff with him, especially if they're a really good team. And they look, they've got weapons and they've got Mike Evans and they've caught other tight ends

than him to where they only need him. Remember, the last time he played in a season, he really kind of limped through it and then made an incredible catch that basically won the Super Bowl. And that's really all you're doing. and if you're paying Rob Gunkowski right now is you're paying him for big spots. He's not going to play 16 games plus a full playoffs and, you know, have 130 receptions.

That's not the type of guy at Rob Gunkowski is. He's not a security blanket that's going to be with you from July 28th to February 7th or whatever. You're going to pay him for big spots. And that's just where he is in his career. And that's his injury history. So I am on the same page. I have a lot of hopes about this. but I could easily see this being a,

a muted season from Rob Grankowski. And but a good vibes guy, and that's important. Yeah, that's great. That's great. Yeah. Gronk should be lifting us all up. And that's,

that's what I hope. He is. All right, my last thing, short and sweet. Trevor Lawrence. So, first of all, I want to unpack just the idea that we're all, the team might tank for Trevor Lawrence. The last couple of guys that we've said

were tanking for as an NFL punditry that have not been who we're tanking for. And everybody thought the dolphins were tanking for Tua. They established a culture, won some games, and got Tua anyway at 5. And then Joe Burrow became the best college passer anybody's ever seen. So we don't know how that's going to emerge.

We don't know, frankly, what this college season's even going to look like because there's a global pandemic on. And so I don't, it's hard for me to say that Trevor Lawrence is going to be the nailed on number one pick in April. Is the season delayed? And, you know, I like, do guys opt out of playing the season? I don't know. I mean, it's going to be, the college season is going to be slightly chaotic for a number of reasons. But I'm intrigued to see if there's any team that really does a brown style tank and tries to get him.

Is that Jacksonville who've drafted some athletic projects? I think they're actually doing a nice job with a sneaky rebuild and getting draft capital and all that stuff. Is it Carolina, even though they signed Teddy Bridgewater? Is there a long-term plan there to maybe get some assets? And maybe it's not even, you know, if you're Carolina right now and you think you're set a quarterback

and you have a bad season, well, if you get the number one pick, you can trade it for a hall and or you trade Teddy Bridger, whatever it is. I'm thinking about the bad, teams right now or the teams that I'm just at least confused about their roster and I'm wondering who is in the best position for for Trevor Lawrence because I think they could get really

competitive. Yeah, I just wonder with someone like a Jacksonville who is incentivized to really go for a tank, you know, because there's people fighting for jobs there and that always plays Well, that's always the case. I mean, that's the case in Miami, too. Is it like the coaches don't want to tank. The coaches want to keep their jobs and not be in the, I mean, I saw Hugh Jackson doing a media tour the other day.

The reason he's doing a media tour is because his career is probably over because he's 0,016. And he won one game in two years. Like, those guys don't want to do this. But organizationally, it's the same way in basketball. They don't really tell guys to lose. The coaches just put out weird rotations, you know, in the last two minutes of games or they say

we're going to shut this guy down for the season. And also it cascades. You know, is there a scenario in which AJ Green could have been activated last year? Possibly, maybe in December. But like, I don't know.

He's your franchise player and let's just sit him out and things are bad and they're only going to get worse and all that stuff. So I think it's little decisions like that. I don't think it's a grand tanking. We're going to lose this. This isn't like the major league movie franchise. where there's some grand plan to move the team to Florida. It's more about just which team is going to be okay taking a step back to

and making those little decisions to potentially get a franchise quarterback. Is there anyone that you think that you would put your money on if you had to? I think it's Jacksonville. I think it's Jacksonville. I don't, there have been some weird and some very smart people who've thought that this could be the play in New England. I just don't think that's at all possible. I think Belichick wants to try to win as many games as possible and try to game plan every week differently

and just kind of make the best out of what he has. I think that's, I don't think New England's going to try to take a step back. You know, I think everyone is so set a quarterback that it's hard to just most teams. And I think I believe in Gardner-Mintu, by the way. I don't think he's, I don't think he's Patrick Mahomes, but I think he's a steady NFL quarterback.

I'm just saying when I look at that roster, it's got the real potential to potentially be the type of team that takes step back because they have, they just went young and they got rid of a lot of guys and all that. So I think I would circle them. I'm trying, you know, I don't think there's a lot of real stinkers. You know, Mays and I in August of last year were like, man, Cincinnati is, they've got a real bad roster. And I don't necessarily see that happening this year where I look at this and see four or five teams where I say, wow, this is, there's no Miami-style tear down this year. There's no, you know, brown style process. It'll be really interesting to see who goes and gets Trevor Lawrence because the answer is not all that obvious. Yeah, no one has the stench.

The Patriots won't think. Never. Never, ever. All right. Nora Princeati, staff writer at the ringer. Her first podcast is the ringer staffer. Thanks for joining us.

Cool. Thanks, Kevin.