The Ringer NFL Show - The Zero RB Draft Strategy | The Dantasy Football Podcast

Episode Date: June 10, 2020

As draft season approaches, we break down one of the hottest draft strategies in fantasy football: zero RB, also known as waiting to draft running backs until the middle rounds and loading up on wide receivers and tight ends early. We discuss the logic behind the strategy, and offer up the most valuable middle-to-late-round running backs. Hosts: Danny Heifetz, Danny Kelly, and Craig Horlbeck Donate to help support the fight for racial justice here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone. Before we begin today's episode, we wanted to say that black lives matter. There are many ways to put those words into action, but if you want to do so monetarily, then we suggest donating on Act Blue. In the description to this episode, we have a link that will split your donation between multiple worthy organizations that are fighting against systemic racism and oppression. Any amount helps. Thank you. Welcome to the Danesie Football Podcast on the ring. NFL show, part of the Ringer podcast network. My name is Danny Haifitz, and I'm joined as always by my co-host and my co-danny,

the hero we need and the analysts we deserve, Danny Gelley. We are also joined by our producer extraordinaire, Craig Horlebeck. Guys, Dalvin Cook wants a contract extension, or he will hold out. Did you know that Dalvin Cook was second in the NFL last year and yards from scrimmage per game after Christian McCaffrey? That is an interesting point that you make, and I actually saw another interesting stat from Mike Clay at ESPN today that said that the Vikings taking into account GameScript were the most run heavy team in the NFL, which I thought was very, very interesting.

Go check out Mike Clay's Twitter account because he has, he's always got these really good stats, but basically shows you when you take into account like all the game script, who's leading and all that actually said that Minnesota, Baltimore and Tennessee, which is probably not too big of a prize were the three run heaviest teams in the NFL. So that obviously helped Dalvin Cook. And then on the flip side of it, Casey, Atlanta, and New Orleans were the three past heaviest teams in the NFL. So anyway, I just found that interesting. And when you asked that question, that was the first thing that came to mind. Do you guys think that Mike Boone and Alexander Madison, the backups of Dalvin Cook, do you think in the back of their heads, they're like, if he holds out for three games,

maybe I could get some reps, people could see me, good for my future. Do you think part of them ever thinks about that or they're like they're like they're like kind of excited yeah they're like it wouldn't be the worst thing if he held out for three games honestly I think every every player in the NFL is probably a little bit selfish in that way you know what I mean like yeah obviously they want their shot and they want their chance to get those reps so yeah I would say they're outwardly they're going to be like man pay the pay the guy his money but a little bit of them is like maybe three games too wait I mean look at Austin Echler last year when when Melvin Gordon held out yeah his career took off yeah

So, I mean, I get it. Yeah, obviously, Austin Eckler is going to come out here saying, you know, we're going to take this one day at a time. You know, I'm just focusing on me what I can control. But obviously, it has occurred to him that it's a life-changing moment for either Mike Boone or Alexander Madison to get the job. Like, you know, just don't admit that out loud. But today we're going to look at draft strategies because season's three months away. Yeah, June is when people start waking up and they're like, oh, yeah, I got to start doing fantasy stuff. And draft strategies just seem like a good way to get a big overview of, I mean, how this season looks,

but how do we look, how do we go into drafts every year? What are our usual thoughts? And then how do we apply those things for this specific season and how we're feeling about players this year? So honestly, though, we're doing this because Craig has found a newfound obsession. So Craig, why don't you take it away? We're going to get into what our personal draft strategies are that we've kind of followed throughout our fantasy careers. but I've been reading a lot about ZeroRB,

which is kind of a hip trendy. It's the Brooklyn, I would say, of fantasy's draft strategies. And I find it really intriguing. And I wanted to kind of dive into that and also just kind of go through what you guys do every year in your draft. Like, what rules do you live by? Yeah, first to start off, I want to say something. It's not quite trendy because it has been around for a while.

Yes, but nobody does it. like making a comeback is more accurate. Like this year especially, I mean, I think first of all, you're not wrong. It is kind of like the trendy thing to do right now because right now by far the thought is

you got to go running back heavy in the draft because those guys are so few and far between. If you don't get a CMC, you know, Barclay, whoever, some of these top guys down from Cook, then you're screwed.

So there's definitely a huge drop off. People say it's really heavy up top. But going back, like it's been a strategy that's been around. I think Sean Segal kind of popularized it in 2013 and I was just listening to a Rotovis podcast this morning about it where

he won like hundreds of thousands of dollars using this using this strategy and it's very contrarian and part of the reason we want to talk about it today is because it's kind of, it's almost like it doesn't feel logical but no it makes no sense it's

on the surface. Yeah but at the same time it is it has been effective for people that use it. I think you do require a little bit of luck in terms of guys getting hurt and things like that if you know if it's going to work for you in certain scenarios but basically any strategy

requires a little bit of luck because yeah before we dive into before we dive into what zero RB is DK what do you normally do when you're going into a fantasy draft so this is probably not a great strategy maybe I should revise it but I kind of like to play around with different ones

for different teams it's like part of the reason part of the reason you have multiple teams is you know, you're not just picking the same guys on every team and hoping these specific guys work out. Obviously, you have your favorites every year. But yeah, so long story short, I don't really subscribe to any one strategy. So you let the draft come to you. Yeah, I would say, I definitely would say like my overarching philosophy is to pay attention to value. But also, I don't pick guys that I just don't think are good or that I don't like.

And I just kind of, that's like my strategy is like, Yeah, but what about if value comes? Like, if you hate a guy, well, you never get him, even if he becomes incredibly cheap? If he becomes incredibly cheap, yeah, then that's when you take him. It's like when, you know, for instance, this year maybe like Todd Gurley falls really far in a draft or something like that. You grab him because he's still going to give volume or whatever. But ultimately, it's kind of a cliche and kind of a joke, but just pick the right players and your team would be great. Well, my friend that I were joking about this, that at the end of the day, no matter how smart anyone gets, like if everybody in the world,

world became fantasy experts. It's pretty much just like your players just have to play well. Like there's almost like no, you just have, they just all have to play well. There's almost no strategy. There's no order that you could put your guys in. You can try and finagle it, which is why I'm kind of obsessed with zero RB now. But like, it doesn't matter the order you do. Just like, you just have to pick guys who fucking play well.

The other thing, the other thing that I think it's very interesting. And Scott Barrett from Fantasy Points wrote about this recently. And it's the upside wins championships idea where instead of trying to play this game like it's your stock portfolio and you just want to hit singles and singles and singles and make sure you're not losing money and all that like fantasy who's playing to get like fourth place

you know what I mean? What's the difference between fourth place and last place really other than I guess you have if you have a more hope that was crushed later if you have something that you have to do if you lose the league then that might change your strategy slightly but if you have like a punishment or whatever

but at the same time like what is the difference between fourth and last like you might as well swing for the fences. If you get 11th place four out of five years, but you win the fifth one, is that fun? Or is it more fun to just be fourth every year and you're in the playoffs and every year you're fighting for it? This isn't a question. If you have a chip, you have a chip.

It's about the chip. But if you're 11th, four out of five years, you're miserable. If you've come in second five years in a row, then it's so much worse than the one guy in your league who has one championship and has been in the last place bracket. Like, not winning. The difference between your first, like, you never forget your first. Everyone remembers the first fantasy championship. It's a life-changing moment.

It's all about the chip. So, but Craig, Craig, how do you, what's your draft, what your mindset at your draft? Maybe that's a better question. I realize that I end up trying to be balanced across all platforms. Like, I try and have a little bit of everything. I've never, just like, I went back and look, on Yahoo, you can just go see all of your old teams. I never really stack one position, which is why I'm intrigued with zero RB this year. I might try and do that. But I usually end up trying to go like running back receiver, running back tight end

receiver, like something like that and try and have a nice balanced offense. It makes me feel good. Feels like I hit every corner. And then I also love handcuffs. I love to grab like Alexander Madison's Tony Pollards just because, you know, I'm not hoping, but if a guy gets hurt, like, that's, that's season changing. And I'd rather have those guys than a guy who's like a shitty starter. that I might not even play anyway. I'd rather have the handcuff. And I literally will hold, I will literally hold on to Tony Pollard

for 16 weeks if he never plays, just waiting for Zeke to twist his ankle. Hi, Fitz. What about you? It's a little dark. So, I mean, I echo most of what you said, D.K., about, I mean, there's no one philosophy as much as, I think my main mindset when I go into a draft is you always want to know your league.

It's like you've got to know the terrain you're invading and, like, invading Russia is different than invading France. And if you're going into a league, like there's just one league I knew that this is random, but it was an auction league. And I just noticed after a few years that every year, the first player off the board always went for the exact dollar amount that was suggested. Like nobody wanted to spend all their money first. Oh, that's interesting. And basically for years in ESPN, like the suggested like $61 for Adrian Peterson was just a, you know, that was way cheap.

They were getting the number one back would go for 60 and then the next person would go for 75. And so I just basically built my entire strategy around. I'm going to get, I forget who it was that year. I'm going to get the number one running back overall for the price. And then I built everything else out around that. And that year I was going to like, okay, I'm building around this. But then there are sometimes where I'm like, oh, well, I have this pick in the draft. I only like these four running backs.

I guess I'm going to have to go receiver first. So what are I going to do from there? And then it's a combo of knowing what you can know ahead of time with then letting things come to you. Then you're like, oh, my God. I had no idea that I would get, you know, whoever you got with the 17th pick or with this budget, what does that change now? So it's basically,

I think really the key is being able to switch, being able to realize what strategy you want mid-draft, because sometimes you want to know what you're going in, but can you like adapt to what's happening in front of you

for the first, second, third round or first few people that you've gotten an auction and then adapting. And actually, if you're especially at an auction, this is true, because you never know

when you're going to get a bargain. So, you know, sometimes you think you're going to have to wait forever. And then there's like three plays in the first eight picks, and you're like, I'm going to have to wait an hour. And you know what I mean? So it really is just being flexible and kind of making a decision after you see how things

are unfolding. I also think you have to, you can't fall in love, especially in auction draft. You have to be kind of cold-hearted and almost sociopathic in your draft where it's like, if somebody goes too high, I will let them go. Or if somebody I don't like is too low, I will draft them, no matter if I don't like them. I remember, I used to do that every year, Marshaun Lynch. I never wanted him. and he was always so cheap

because people would be like I don't know this year and I'd be like nah $11 from Marshawn I'm good and then he would have 10 touchdowns and I was like I gotta get over this Well the other thing that the other thing that matters is

is the setup of your league the rules of your league and you know if it's a tight end premium league that changes things if it's a league where you start three receivers that's obviously different too so when we're talking about zero running back

which is going to be kind of the I guess like the, you know, anchor of this, this pod. But really, it's an excuse to talk about late round running backs that we like also. But to be clear, like zero RB works best in leagues where it's PPR typically because you're targeting running backs that are past catchers and generally speaking like standard scoring type leagues. And it also actually works better if you're starting more, if it's a league that you have to

start more receivers. then you're getting higher value, you know, receivers instead of taking running back early. So keep that in mind when we're kind of talking about zero RP. It's not as effective in standard. If there's two receiver spots, if there's two receiver spots in your team and there's a 10 team league, there's only 20 receivers starting at the receiver spot each week, it's not great because everyone's going to have really great receivers. But if you have three and then maybe two flex spots or whatever, then it's a key.

And then you could start five or six. then it's a huge difference. And so it's the deeper, and obviously if it's a 12-team league or more or whatever, than the same logic applies. And one thing Pat Corain points out and has established the run article

about zero RB that is interesting. It's just about basically a lot of the strategy boils down to, you want your team to be at its best at the end of the season, not the start. And teams who are RB-heavy look really good at the start of the year.

And they usually, week ones through four or whatever, it's like all systems go. But running backs get hurt more. He pointed out, that Arby's drafted in the first five rounds are 200 to 360% more likely to suffer a serious injury than wide receivers.

Say that again? How much? 200 to 360% more. And I mean, even if you just think about it, like, you can win your league on the waiver wire, but it's normally with running backs. I mean, you look back, you think of guys like DeMarco Murray, who I think people picked up middle of the year that one year. Derek Henry two years ago,

I remember I got him in like week 12, and I ended up winning my league because I got him. That doesn't happen with what. wide receivers. It's rare that a wide receiver shows up week 11 and just takes off, even if a top guy gets hurt. If Devante Adams goes down, Marquez Valdez-Scaling isn't going to become Devante Adams. But if Zique goes down, Tony Pollard can come pretty close to being Zique. Right. And so when you draft a lot of wide receivers early, you're essentially drafting anti-fragile players who will last the test of time when running backs statistically don't. So by playoffs,

come playoffs, you could be a lot more injured than you want. want to be. And the reason that this really, I'm really intrigued by zero running back this year, but also just I like it in general, is that it checks two really important boxes for a strategy and fantasy, which is one, humility, which is that nobody knows the future and like, don't actually pretend, not to reveal the curtain too much, but no one knows what the hell is going to happen every year. And especially with running backs, a lot of it's just unpredictable and just leaning all the way into that, there's a strength and the humility of saying, I don't know what's going to happen, as opposed to being obviously Leonard Fournett's going to get 400 carries this year.

And the second one is also obviously zagging when everyone zigs. And I think together, the humility and then contrarianism is a powerful combo. To be clear, I think we should probably say this explicitly. Like zero RV does not mean zero running backs on your team. It just means... This is a branding issue. It's the opposite. It's a lot of running backs.

It's zero running backs up top. Right. Zero. Yeah, we need a new name for it maybe. but maybe it's clickbaity, I don't know. By the end of this podcast, let's rename Zero running back because it really, it's bad branding because it's like, why would you have zero?

It's actually just like you either get one person in the first round and then you just kind of ignore it for like a long time or you don't even bother and you just pick sweep up all the value receivers and tight end, if you will, in the first five rounds or so because those are safer bets. And then you just basically pick all these running backs for all these reasons we've been talking about.

But you have a lot, you probably have more running backs on your bench than most people do. So it's zero good running backs. I will say when you try this, if you try this on a mock draft, you're not going to like your team. It looks weird. Because you're in like round six and you're like, holy crap, I don't have a running back.

And my first option is like Cam Acres. And my second pick is, you know, Sony Michelle. And you're like, this is what I'm going to do. But the whole point is you've got to figure out how to pinpoint those values late in your draft of running backs in the six, seven, eight rounds who are actually going to end up as strong RB2s come the end of the year. Craig, you said the word. I think it's a very interesting word, anti-fragile, anti-fragility.

Basically, it's a stock market term, I believe. And what it alludes, what it stonks, yes, what it alludes to essentially is that fragile assets, in this case, fantasy football players, if you have those on your team, you know, when chaos happens, with injuries happen, when certain things that you just can't predict happen, your team will crumble under those situations. An antifragile team thrives when that happens.

So you're going against the grain, you're kind of like betting against the market a little bit. Like you're betting against normalcy, I guess, and you're hoping for that chaos because your team is built to thrive in that chaos. So I think it's just very fascinating, like, theoretic, like theoretical. strategy, you know, obviously, I don't know if I would use it for all my teams because, you know, like Craig said, it's like he just, it doesn't feel good right away, but it is something it's fun, I think it's fun to play around with. And in some seasons, and if you do it right, it can be very, very successful. Okay. Well, let's get to the guys who are good targets. Yeah. So we kind of separated it out into two different tiers of guys. So basically mid-round

targets that you can, you can target after grabbing like some really elite tight ends and receivers early on in your draft. And also, if you want to get a running back in the first round, like, that's totally fine. It's, you know, basically depends on how your auction shicks out or if you have one of the first four or five picks. So that's not so important as much as what happens from there on out. I think the true, a true zero running back thought would be that even those guys are risky.

Even Christian McCaffrey is risky. So don't do it. So, but again, it's not a hard and fast rule. It's kind of more like a philosophy. So anyways, going back to like, mid-round players that you can target, like I said, once you've grabbed three or four, really good, really safe receivers or tight ends early on in the draft. I think we started around like round five. The first guy that kind of came to my mind was DeAndre Swift from the Lions. And I think Swift has a few things working against him going into the season. Number one, he's a rookie. So people don't really know what he's going to look like on the field. And number two, he had a relative, like, relative to, like a lot of these other running backs in this draft, a terrible landing spot. So I'm looking at Swift, and I recognize that it's a little contrarian inside an already

contrarian strategy because people were, people are really, really fading Swift at this point, like not confident. They think it's going to be a running back by committee there. They don't trust Darryl Bevel. They don't trust the lions in general. You know, it's just not a, it's not a sexy landing spot for him. But if you go back, and I like to do this with some guys just because I think people, can be moved a little bit too much by landing spot and things like that.

And AJ Brown might be an example of that where people maybe fade him a little bit because he landed in Tennessee where you're just not really confident in that offense, but he turned out to be a total stud. But if you look at Swift, like before the combine, he was generally considered, I think, the consensus RB1 right up into the combine. Jonathan Taylor ran a 4-3. For fantasy or for real life? I'm talking more like dynasty. and also real life, but I think a lot of people still had him as their RB1

even after Taylor ran a 4-3, and kind of the hype train just blew up with Taylor, and then he got really big. And then also as the draft happened, Clyde Edwards-Layer got picked by the chiefs, and so he surpassed Swift as well. So basically these situations dictated that Swift fell behind, you know, fell into the background,

even though, you know, before this all kind of, it happened. A lot of people thought he was the best back in the draft. And the other thing is he was constantly praised as an extraordinary pass catcher, which is obviously crucial, crucial in fantasy. So, you know, the talent's there, the past catching skill is there. The entire skill set is there. Basically, what people are fading him for is the landing spot. But I actually don't think it might be, I don't think it's as bad as people might think it is. Going into Detroit, he's going to be competing against Carrion Johnson, who can't stay healthy. isn't especially strong as a pass catcher.

So I think he is the lock solid, you know, from day one, like the pass catching back, I would say as like his floor in that offense. Bo Scarborough is there. He's the former seventh rounder who's bounced around. He's on his third team now. You know, they drafted a guy Jason Huntley in the fifth round. He's like 180 pounds. I don't think he's going to necessarily be sealing a ton of work from a guy that they drafted

just outside the first round. And, you know, you got other guys like West Hills, a small school undrafted free agent. So in my mind at worst, like Swift is a Theoretic type player in that lion's offense. That's a player that, you know, we've seen Matt Stafford play with him. Going back to 2014,

Riddick saw 50 plus targets every season from 2014 to 2018. To add a little context, he was the RB 18 in 2015, the RB8 in 2016, and that's per game average. So he was getting a lot of work in the passing game. And that's obviously different coaching. staff.

It's a different, almost different era back then. But I still think a past catching backs role and the predictability of past catching back has somewhat to do with the quarterback because quarterbacks are willing to check it down, use their running backs in the passing game. They tend to do that year over year. I think Philip Rivers is kind of like the perfect example of that.

Like he really relies on that. So you don't mind DeAndre Swift being your first running back if you're going zero RAB. I mean, I think it would be fine. I think, you know, you could maybe, you can maybe talk me into some of these other rookies before him if they fall that far. But I still think...

We're saying that they don't. In this area, I still think he's a fine fine pick even in year one because I think people are fading him for the landing spot a little bit too much. I think he's almost become a value at this point. Well, there you go. The only thing I have to say about DeAndre Swift, and I was listening to the Fantasy Points podcast, which people should check out. It's really good. is just that Darryl Bevel offenses,

they don't pass a lot to running backs. Yeah, yeah. 13 years as offensive coordinator, Darryl Bevel has given his running backs more than 60 targets once, and his running backs have never seen more than a 12% target share, and almost 20 running backs had that last season.

So I guess my only worry would just be, if he's like half a pass catcher and half a runner, he's just kind of, he's just in the margins too much in the offense, would be my only worry. I mean, and I don't love, That's definitely the worry is that maybe their offense is just not designed to that. Maybe like they're too, you know, chuck a deep too much or something like that with Beville, you know, as the play caller.

But again, I think until I see him in this offense, like I'm going to be bullish on him, I think, just because I think he's a good player. And I don't think they took him early second round, like a few picks in the second round to just be like sort of this guy that they randomly use sometimes. I think that they've got a plan for him. Yeah, and we talked about injuries. I mean, if Kerryon Johnson goes down, I mean, Swift could completely change your team. So that's another reason why he might work for zero RB. Yeah, yeah.

Gregori, you got another mid-rounder for zero RB? Another rookie, I like Cam Acres a lot. He's going as the RB 27. So outside of the RB2 range is an early RB3 on your team. So he's on the Rams. He's replacing Todd Gurley. He could just straight up be the lead guy in an offense with a lot of open touches,

223 carries and 49 targets, went to Gurley last year. I went back and read DK's assessment of Cam Acres and just reading about him. He's a capable of three-down-back. He's dynamic, elusive, athletic runner. He can catch the ball. He's got great footwork.

He had a terrible, like a horrific offensive line at Florida State. The Rams' offensive line isn't great, but it's not the worst in the league. And they have Malcolm Brown and Daryl Henderson. And Daryl Henderson has not panned out to be the Alvin Kumar that Sean McVeigh proclaimed him to be.

and Les Needs said that Malcolm Brown is going to be the short yardage guy. Darrell Henderson's going to be the home run hitter, which to me is just like a BS way of saying he's not going to play that much. Yeah, they're only going to put him in when he has 80-yard touchdowns. Yeah, yeah.

And then Aker's is there, in quotes, go-to guy is what he said. So, I mean, even if he can take 80% of what Todd Gurley did, he could be a legitimate RB2 having over 200 opportunities on what I think will be a good Rams offense. And if they run in more 12-personnel more

and have two tight ends on the field, maybe that'll help him as a runner. I love that. Do you think related to this, like, you know, for late, late, late, maybe your last pick, do you think Brown is worth a grab in this scenario just because he could get all that goal line work? Definitely, because in that article that Corain wrote, he was talking about how the guys to look at are guys who get the ball inside the 10 and guys who catch passes.

And that's like the sweet spot. He called it the green zone, which was inside the 10. And that's how you want to basically rank your late round guys because all the rushes outside of the 10-yard line are just like unimportant yards. And Derek Henry is a guy who gets a lot of those, but he had a historic year last year. But normally those are like the Sony Michelle's where you're running in between the 20s

and you may get a lot of touches and people sometimes only care about touches. But it's actually you need to value which touches. And Lagart Blunt like destroyed his ADP in so many years because you got so many inside the 10 rushes. And if Malcolm Brown can do that, then he might be valuable if you get him as your 15th pick in the draft.

He's going to be a heartbreak. for so many people this year. Yeah, the ultimate vulture. He vulture Todd Gurley last year. Yeah, and the Rams also went from one of the worst offensive lines in the league for the first eight or ten weeks to really like perfectly average for the final stretch of the season. I'm not sure how they'll be this season,

but they're, they had a lot of injuries and a lot of changes that I think that they're somewhere in between how bad they were running last year, and then obviously how good they were the year before. I'm pretty confident they'll be in between. They changed, you know, they changed their entire scheme halfway through the year. They changed, they went from predominantly outside zone to doing more gaps up in the middle and, you know, they used tight ends more. So it was a, it was a very intriguing,

I guess, development. And we don't know exactly what they're going to do next year. Like, are they going to go back to this really heavy, wide zone thing that they did a couple of years before that? Or, you know, are they going to kind of do what they did the second half last year? And it's hard to predict, and it's hard to, it makes it hard to predict like what they're going to do in the passing game. But I still think that this will be a good run team. I think that's McBey's. It's funny because people talk about how genius McVey is, and the same people probably talk about how passing is so much more important.

But McVey and Cheney Ann are run-first coaches. And McVeigh's talked about how the run game is the foundation of their offense, and everything flows off the run game and play action. So I think we can safely say they're going to run the ball a lot, but that's about as far as we can go in terms of predicting how it all shakes out. If any running back could have a Kareem Hunt like rookie season this year out of all the rookie running backs, I think it's Cam Acres. Yeah, it wouldn't be surprising. He's so athletic. He's good. Okay. So I am just surprised by like the endorsements these,

the Swift and Acres are getting because I have someone that I just am baffled by their ADP. This is a great one. On average, Damien Williams, the should have been maybe Super Bowl MVP of the Kansas city chiefs. I believe you're on the hottest take. This is the dance of the level. He is being drafted on average. Ninety second overall. He's the 35th running back going in

draft so far. I understand that the chief spent their first run pick on Clyde Edwards-Hillard. I would just like to counter that Damien Williams had six touchdowns of the playoffs and has just been the number one running back on the best

offense in football. and everyone is just pretending that this rookie will just obviously and automatically just be the only fantasy relevant dude. Meanwhile, the actual starter who has not been dethroned yet is available five rounds later, six rounds later. And to me is like the epitome, like the quintessential zero running back choice because you've got someone who has already gotten the job. And it's not like he just fell into it. Like last year he got hurt in training camp and the chiefs were adamant like he's our starter. We don't care. Like, we understand he's not in practice for now.

He's our starter. And then there's this year where he's going into it. I understand that Clyde Edwardsville layer will overtake him. Obviously in the long run and probably at some point this season. And I probably would take Clyde Edwards or Lair before Damien Williams. But I find it baffling he's available in the 90 overall spot. Like, like that's crazy to me because in week one, Damien Williams is probably going to be the starter.

Like Clyde Edwards-A-Layer hasn't spent much time with Patrick Mahomes this offseason. Damie Williams will be the starter in week one. And you can get the Chiefs week one running back with like your 10th pick. That's crazy to me. And again, Andy Reid after the draft said about Cloud Edwards were layer, you can't do it with just one guy in today's football. So we've got a whole lot of these guys now.

It's going to be a backfield dominated by Williams and a lair. I think it's going to be way closer to even for the first half of the season. That's a crazy value to me. And you know it's almost always a smart move and a running back by committee is just draft the cheaper guy. Draft the cheaper guy, and also the cheaper guy is rarely the incumbent starter who was just outrageously good in the Super Bowl. So, I don't know. I just, I think I'll have a lot of Damien Williams this year.

I feel like, but the history of first round running backs and volume, like, it's very, very rare that a first round running back doesn't get the most volume. Andy Reid has only drafted one other first round running back and it was LaShawn McCoy. I'm not saying Damon Williams going to be better in fantasy this year than Clyde. I'm not saying I would draft Damien Williams ahead of Edwards He's just like the value. I'm saying that Edwards Aller going I mean some people are seeing him as like

mid-20s or mid-30s and then Damien Williams going in the 90s. We're talking about zero running back and the whole premise of this is in some ways basically let's just assume we don't know the breakdown of the backfield as well as we think we do Damien Williams is number one on my list by far. I'm looking at the ADP from 2019 right now

from fantasy pros. Damien Williams, at least on this list, it was August 2nd, was 24 overall. That's what I'm saying. People are just mad about... Here's the way I look at it. Getting burned by him last year. Here's the way I look at it.

If Clyde Edwards O'Learyk gets most of the backfield carriers and Damien Williams has it, okay, worst case, you've got a guy getting 30%, 40% of the snaps in the best offense in football, and he'll be starred a pleasure flex, maybe. And then the upside is, will it be really shocking if eight weeks through this even Damien Williams is like just getting the most of a committee and like he's getting the most snaps

and Clydeb which is getting slightly less. Is that shocking? I'd be pretty surprised. I'd be pretty surprised. I mean, not every, it's very, I would say it's very rare for that to happen, but it does happen. So it's, you know, I'm, I like him for zero. Dika, who do you, who do you like better? All right. So I think, I think a very good target in this range is Kareem Hunt from the Browns. For a number of reasons. Number one, And like he's a really good, he's a really good handcuff. And that's, but that's not really the only reason. I like, I think he has standalone value. Because at least based on how they used him last year, we still, there's, there's certainly

uncertainty whether he'll get all of the passing down usage that he did last year under a different coaching staff. So I think that's baked into his ADP. Right now he's, you know, around a fifth rounder. But he would, he proved to be a very, very good pass catcher from week 10 on after he, uh, served his suspension. He was the RB 17 in the NFL, average 12.7 PPR points per game.

Nick Chubb for a little comparison, 13.0 PPR points per game in that stretch. So they were basically even to finish the season in PPR league. So clear standalone value. You can get it very, very late. And then also the added bonus, if Chub goes down,

he's like a league winning type player. He led the NFL in rushing his rookie season. He's done it. It's not a question of... And Nick Chub almost led the league in rushing last year. Right. It's not a question of if he can do it or it's not... You know, people are excited about this rookie, which obviously we are excited about rookie players.

Like, we've seen him on the NFL field, breaking tackles, being a very good pass catcher. So he's in a very kind of unique situation because, you know, he's behind one of the best running backs in the NFL. But at the same time, you know, if they use him in a similar fashion as they did last year, he could be a very, very good value at this spot. So he's like, I would probably maybe even... I would take him over Swift probably just because I think the Browns are more dedicated to the run, I think, than the Lions. Yeah, Hunt's at the intersection of standalone value and upside. Yeah. And handcuff upside.

Craig, you got another mid-round running back target? Yeah, a little bit later, but I actually like Tariq Cohen this year. He's going as the 40th running back taken in drafts. And two years ago, he was the 11th best. and, you know, the Bears' offense last year was a mess, and he was still the RB 27. I mean, he was almost a RB2 on your team. Even if both years seem unrealistic,

even if 2018 was too good in 2019 was kind of his floor, if he's somewhere in the middle, I mean, that's in between RB11 and RB27. That's an RB2. And the Bears throw the ball. I feel like people think the Bears run the ball a lot. They kind of don't. They threw the ball the 14th most times last year.

Regardless of who the quarterback is, I think Tariq Cohen is going to get a lot of, the targets. They didn't sign back Taylor Gabriel. There's not a lot of people to throw the ball to on the Bears. And I think Tariq Cohen was a steal as the RB40. I want to play

a quick game here. How many running backs do you guys think had? Don't look it up. And if you already did, then this is cheating. But how many running backs had 100 plus targets last year? I'm trying to, I know, like, McCaffrey Fournet, I think did. Yep. Yeah. Fornet had a hundred. Fournet and Tarich Cohen.

Is that right? It was four. Camar didn't because he was hurt too much. Camar had 97. So it was McCaffrey, Echler. Oh, Ecclory did make it. Maccalfrey had 142 targets. Austin Eccler, 108.

Tareke Cohen, 104. I mean, he's getting far less valuable targets because they're all just sort of like of the dump off nature. He had 79 receptions for 456 yards. So it's not like he's getting a ton and ton of like real meaningful volume, but you can't discount 104 targets.

Well, DK, but DK, here's my question for you. Here's my question for you. How much was the Bears' offense designed for Mitchell Trubiske's we'll call them limitations? And then what do you think it looks like with Nick Foles?

What do you think they're not going to change much? Let me be clear. I don't think I would not bet on Cohen getting 100 plus targets again. I think a lot of it had to do what they used him as like a de facto slot receiver early on in the season. So he did get,

that did boost his numbers a little bit or quite a bit. it, but I do think overall, like the offense, the bears will be better this season. And that could certainly help, you know, just Cohen's touches be more valuable too. I still think they have a role for him. Like, I agree with you, Craig. I think right now he's probably really, really far undervalued based on just the volume he's going to get. I also just think he's, you know, he's very explosive player.

So he has that upside to be, you know, hit those home runs when he gets them. actual some like green in front of them because the offense is just a little more effective next year. But Danny, yeah, they used him as I think like a checkdown option last year. They used him as a de facto slot receiver for a while when Anthony Miller was hurt. So, you know, there's going to be changes this season and you can't bank on him getting 100 plus targets. But I do think he will be a bigger part of that offense than people might guess. Do you like Tariq Cohen or Kam Akers better? I would take Acres over Cohen.

Just just going to have... Terry Cohen or Damien Williams. I probably... I probably... That's pretty close. I probably go Cohen. Kareem Hunt or DeAndre Swift. Yeah, that's a close one too.

I probably go hunt. Just because he's done it in the NFL. You watch, Kerry on Johnson's going to be like great this year and it'll just screw everything up. Rip Craig's heart out. Yeah. All right, so do you guys want to talk about

some like late, late round type players that you can grab? Yeah, the deep cut players. Some of these are going to be you know, pretty clear handcuffs. And then some of them will be guys that could have some standalone value. I lumped two rookies together that I think could actually have some standalone value in addition to being obvious handcuff players.

But that's Joshua Kelly with the Chargers. Right now he's ADP 218, RB-62, so very, very late. AJ Dylan of the Packers, ADP of 173, running back 49. Both of these guys have a direct line to potentially function as their team. team's goal line backs. So Kelly, he's like 218 pounds. He's in a backfield right now with Echler and Justin Jackson. Echler is 200 pounds. Justin Jackson, 198 pounds. So both of these guys are pretty, you know, on the small side for running back position. Well, it's not just he's 218. I don't think anyone else in their backfield's over 200 in the Chargers. Right. And so I think his role,

you know, from day one is to be that between the tackles grinder, you know, he ran really well. he, I think it was like in the four-fives. He showed good athleticism. You know, he's just kind of a no-nonsense between the tackles grinder, and I think he'll factor in at the goal line. Do you know how many times people have said that about you at the ringer-d-D-K?

Just a no-nonsense grinder? Matter-of-fact, grinder. I don't know how to feel about that. I think that's probably a good thing, ultimately, but, you know, you just always dream about being, like, Dawson Eccler is the world, man. Like, just so much more fun to watch. But anyway,

Getting back on topic. So, Kelly. No nonsense. Joshua. I love having D.K. go back to talking about football. It's always funny to hear him trying to go back.

I wish I was no, I wish I was a nonsense guy, but back to football. Oh, God. I think you guys caught me there. Did you set that up? That was bullshit.

Anyway. All right. So getting back to my... You're saying why the Chargers rookie third string running back is going to be their best value. Getting back to my... Getting back to my... outline here. Melvin Gordon got 13 carries from inside the five yard line last season,

which was seventh most in the NFL. So he was, he was their clear, you know, they had a delineation of roles last year, clearly with, with Melvin Gordon and Echler. And keep in mind, Gordon only, he missed the first four games in the season. So I believe it was four. I believe it was four. So anyway, so someone would say he also missed the next three anyway, but yeah. He had 13 carries from inside the five yard lines. He was clearly their inside, like their red zone. goal line type guy. I think Kelly could, in theory, grab, like, that role immediately.

I don't know if they're going to be at the goal line quite as much this year, you know, because their offense could take a step back, we'll see. But I think that gives him that kind of value where, like, you're getting a guy who could score like, you know, 7, 8, 9, 10 points a week. And that's if he is just only playing that role. So I like both these guys, but like,

I'm surprised you grouped them together because while I, I like Josh, I mean, actually just drafted both of them. these guys in a dynasty draft I did. But I feel like Dylan's clearly the better spot because there's word that Jamal Williams has been the backup Darren Jones for a little bit, where he might get cut before training camp.

And then, like, because the Packers might have to sign a receiver. And then just Josh Kelly, like Justin Jackson's there. Whereas the Packers is kind of like, they just drafted Agent Dillon in the second round. Like, he's huge. Like, what else is it going to do if not be a goal lineback? Whereas the chart, it's not shocking if Josh Kelly doesn't have a role. It would be pretty surprising if the

Packers cut Jamal Williams and didn't. So like, I do like Dylan more. Yeah. Okay. Like, but are they even the same ballpark to you? The reason I grouped them together is because I think both of them, the way that I thought about it is both have standalone value, but both are also like really obvious big upside handcuffs. So like that's, you know, I would say I would group. I would say Dylan is far.

I would have way rather have Dylan at this point because number one, draft capital, much higher. You know, the size, the athleticism. I think that the Packers' offense probably is going to be better. Dylan, like being 250 pounds, you know, he's, like he said, he's perfectly suited for that role. And, by the way, Aaron Jones tied Melvin Gordon last year with 13 carries inside the 5-yard line. So I don't know, you know, exactly how they'll split up the workload between Aaron Jones and A.J. Dylan. But my guess is Dylan is going to get at least some of that workload inside the 5-yard line. Because that's like, you know, that's like why they brought him.

And that's why you get a big guy like that who could run four or five and, you know, got good feet and all that stuff. Like you want to punish defenses. So, I mean, I think, yeah, I think Dylan is probably getting underrated still just because I think people didn't think he was very good. But I think the Packers clearly have sort of a role and plan in mind for him. Yeah, the Packers have a plan. And we'll see how that plan goes.

Well, the Jordan Love era. Jeez. Okay, Craig. Who's a late-rounder guy that you like? kind of like Tavin Coleman on the Niners, you know? You sound thrilled. You sound just excited. Well, the Niners are the poster boy for ZeroRB though, right?

Because remember Rahim Moser last year? Yeah, Kyle Shanahan just employs Zero RB on his own team, kind of. So the thing is, is like, Tevin Coleman, like, I didn't scroll past him and he, like, jumped out to me. And I was like, obviously. But, you know, you just kind of look at it. he's going as to 44th running back, and Rahim Moster is going almost 20 spots ahead of him. And like we said earlier, talking about Damien Williams and Clyde Edwards-Hillair, if there's a timeshare and a run-heavy offense, getting a cheap running back is a valuable pick.

And Matt Breda, who was part of their three-headed horse, has gone, and it's just Coleman and Rahim Moster. There is Jeff Wilson. They have Jerich McKinnon, who restructured his contract. He's working his way back. He last, I read a blurb about he's still working. on trying to make cuts while running. Not necessarily sure he's going to be ready.

That's not a great sign. But Coleman is one of those things you want to watch in training camp for sure. Definitely. Whether it's Coleman or McKinnon or Wilson, whoever, whoever's second in training camp is the person. Yeah. And, you know, Shanahan kind of has an infatuation with Kevin Coleman. They've been together a long time.

He really likes him. And Coleman out touched all of the running backs on the Niners last year while playing less games than Rahim Moster. He didn't score as many points. He wasn't as effective on the field, but he's probably the most talented pass catcher. and he's going to have a role. And 20 spots later than Rahim Mostert, 20 running backs later than Rahim Mostert,

I think he's a value. Yeah, that's the thing too. Mostert didn't catch passes in this offense. He was not the past catching back for them. And Coleman has that history in the Shanahan offense. That was a big part of it when he was in Atlanta. He was kind of like their pass catching guy light up in the slot, things like that.

I think this is really smart. You just want a piece of that. You want a piece of that run game. One of my favorite stats from last. season is that among running backs in yards before contact per attempt, which is a broad sweeping, but basically how good is you're blocking? It's not that simple, but, you know, how far did you get before you got hit? Rahim Astrup was number one and Matt Berita was number two, and now Brita is gone. And also Tedvin Coleman was 10. So three-niners running backs in the top 10 for yards

for contact per attempt. Love that. D.K. I'm actually kind of surprised we haven't mentioned this guy yet because he's another very good option, I think, in this strategy, Jordan Howard or the dolphins. Right now, his ADP is 94. Yeah, we got to talk. This is supposed to be deep cuts. You're out of here giving someone in the top 100 here. What do you talk? I, like, I plug Damien Williams, who's like going two spots earlier in the mid-round section, and we got to decide where the mid-round ends and the late rounds begin. Okay, well, true. Let me just say, I'm doing this out of order. I'm doing this out of order, but let's talk about Jordan Howard really quick.

Then I'm going to, I'm going to go on the fly here and give you another one. Wow. Oh my God. Just because I called you out. So he belongs in this earlier segment. Sorry. Apologies, Danny. But anyways, he's slated to start for the dolphins. He could get, you know, he could get 200 carries in the season. Obviously, the dolphins aren't a very good team.

But I think their offense has a chance to improve, whether that's Fitzgerald or I always say Fitzgerald or Fitzgerald or two under center. I don't know who it's going to be. But I do think their offense could improve. And he's the big back in that backfield. So he could get goal and work over Matt Breda. I don't know if Breda is very reliable, to be honest. like he battled injuries last year.

So anyways, I think Jordan is the safer option in that offense. I'm going to pivot right now, give you another one, and maybe I'll give you two guys, Carlos Hyde and Rashad Penny. Because I think actually Carlos Hyde,

I think I would rather have over Penny at this point. I'm just a little bit worried about Penny's knee because... Well, so the Seahs got Chris Carson. They signed Carlos Hyde last month. People thought about they were going to sign Marchon, and then Penny's coming off an ACL injury. Yeah. And Chris Carson's,

coming off a hip injury. Carson is coming off an injury. Craig, do you feel like cheated on now that D.K. is trying to get it on your Carlos Hyde love as the number one Carlos Hyde fan in the planet? I know. And now I love the Seahawks backfield so much now. Yeah.

D.K., so why Carlos Hyde? Mainly just because the Seahawks love to run the football. They're always among the league leaders in, you know, I guess like the run rate. And Carson is the clear number one. And I don't, I'm not worried about him losing his job necessarily on merit, but he has had injury issues in the past. And, you know, the fumble thing is still a clear concern going forward. But to me, the biggest thing is just like, is he going to be healthy?

You know, I don't think he's healthy yet. They've said that he's slated to start the season. But I just think there's a chance, you know, by the end of the day that Carlos Hyde is, like, starting for the Seahawks. And that's not necessarily, I don't know if he's necessarily going to be like a big volume producer as a pass catcher. but the CX did make it a big emphasis last season to pass to their running backs more often. That was a big thing for Brian Schott and I were in the offseason for some reason to get their running backs more involved in the passing game.

And them signing Carlos High to me tells me that they're not necessarily going to trust guys like Travis Homer, DJ Dallas this early. Those two guys, I think more like special teams backups type players. Who among us doesn't trust Travis Homer? I mean, I love Travis Homer, but I believe they drafted him. because he's a very good special teamer. And I think DJ Dallas is the same sort of deal. So, yeah, so I think, you know, just with Chris Carson being somewhat, you know,

I don't know if I really, really trust him to play the full season. So I think that makes Carlos Hyde like a very good handcuff slash, you know, he might even get like a rotational duties with Carson. There you go. Craig, you got a late around sleeper for us? It's kind of like Nahim Hines, now that Philip Rivers is his quarterback, Checkdown King, built Austin Neckler's career, built Danny Woodhead's career, and Frank Reich is the play caller. And Frank Reich was the play caller when Danny Woodhead was the RB3 in 2015 and with Darren Sproul's a couple years after that.

And Naheem Hines and Philip Rivers kind of seemed like a dump off match made in heaven. So he's going 163rd overall. So I just think it's worth mentioning his name. I did not like this idea when you said it. And then by the end of you saying it, I was very on board with this. thank you good that was that's quick yeah no i just that makes a ton of sense i'm not worried about are you worried about marlin mack at all yeah but i think actually what you just said makes sense i mean the worst case scenario here is it's the three i mean i think

the consensus is this will be a three running back committee between taylor mac and hines it'll be really difficult for any of them to be like consistently um grabbing a hold of it to like be a standout person and like no one's going to be a feature no one's going to be number one running back for you and the third running back is probably not going to be thing. But if Heinz usurps Mac or honestly, Taylor has fumble issues, which people don't like to talk about. And Mac has been had an injury issue. So if either them gets hurt, I actually would make a lot of sense to me if Heinz became just one of a two person backfield. And that would be really intriguing. Like Austin Echler Light. That's fascinating to me. All righty. I'm going to do a little lightning

round here, kind of like handcuffed city because I was just perusing and I was thinking, all right, I'm doing a zero running back draft and I just was perusing the average draft position and a few of these blew me away. First off, Jacksonville Jaguars, Reikwell Armstead, Chris Thompson, both going undrafted.

I don't, I feel like, look, we love Lenny Fornes of this podcast. We absolutely love him. Understand that Jaguars had like no rushing touchdowns last year that poised for a huge year.

Am I the only one who remembers that Leonard Fournette was like about to get trading? like six weeks ago and that the Jacksonville front office is a dumpster fire that has basically sent away all of their good players and that Yonik and Gokwe,

their defensive end, is currently begging for a trade on Twitter. And I just feel like, first of all, there's a chance he's not even on the team in August. Second of all, the fact that Doug Marone is perhaps the most likely coach

to get fired first. And once the coach is fired, all playing time bets are off. The new front off, like the Tom Cawthon's gone. so the front office isn't committed to Fournet. They declined his fifth year option. He's a free agent after the...

He doesn't have the job security that I think people see. So the fact that both of his backups are going undrafted, it's kind of amazing to me. All right, that wasn't so lightning round. But the other one person, just Latavius Murray on the Saints. I mean, he's not going on draft or anything. He's going like 120th or so. But, I mean, when Alvin Kumar got hurt,

Latavis Murray was a top five running back twice in a handful of starts. Zeke Elegate was a top five running back four times the whole season. He looked pretty amazing to be honest. Murray looked great. You look at his stats. None of them are like amazing.

I mean, touchdown stats are great. But when you watch the Davis Murray last year, you're like, oh, wow, this guy could totally be a top five fantasy running back if he was ever. Like, Camaro was out every, and in a week to week game where Camaro's hurt, like week to week league, he's an absolute top ten running back every week that Camaro is out, which is what you're looking for.

And on that same note, Tony Pollard on Dallas. borderline on draft. He's going like 140th. I mean, Craig, you said this at the top. Like, every week, Zick is out. Tony Pollard might be a top five running back. I mean, straight up might not be able, like the guys you might have over Pollard every week.

If Zeeke is out, you might count on one hand. And that's ultimately, if we're talking about upside at the end of your bench, zero running back, which is about, you know, running backs are risky and also it's a week-to-week game. He might have standalone value of Zique isn't playing anyway because McCarthy famously is just, been kind of like mixing up running backs while he's been a coach. And then also Pollard was a receiver in college. McCarthy once took my time Montgomery from receiver putting up running back.

I'm curious if Pollard might get snaps at receiver. Um, he spans Todd Archer said that was possible. But ultimately it's about upside. And I was Craig, you said this top of the show. It's like Tony Pollard, like what a great last pick. And then last up, same thing. Alex Madison. We've mentioned the top of show. Dalvin Cook might hold out. Even if he shows up with a week left, like he's still going to be rusty. And Madison will therefore have to get more share. anyway and it's not just about the holdout. Obviously, if Dalvin Cook holds out, Madison's valuable. The point is that Dalvin Cook has not been

consistently healthy in his career and Madison's still valuable. And even if Cook shows back up, Madison still has value. There's my not so light. It was more like thunder than a lightning round. That was like a thunder round. I'm going to do the same thing. I'm going to throw out a few more guys.

And these are just more like what of my favorite handcuffs, I guess. Derrington Evans on the Titans just because I think he's a perfect fit for that wide zone offense that they do. That's exactly what he did in college. Very explosive player. I don't know if he's necessarily ever got like,

he's not going to be like a workhorse type back in the NFL potentially. But I think if, you know, if Derek Henry goes down and we saw him have a hamstring injury last year, those hamstrings can be really finicky. So he could have the type of, you know, weekly RB1 upside if, if, you know, Henry is out or whatever.

The other guy that I was going to mention is Giovanni Bernard of the Bengals is an interesting option because we've got we've already got Joe makeson threatening told out but it's the same kind of deal I think is like early on in the season he could have some some value he could have like I'm definitely not going to compare him to like Austin Eccler but he could have that ability to step into like the lead role and function as a like three down pack in that offense so you know Joe Bernard if Joe Mixon does decide to hold out is definitely some early season value. but then, you know, if there's any injuries there,

I think he's, they re-sign him to a relatively big running back deal for a reason. I think they like him there. He's good in the passing game. He's explosive. So he's a pretty good handcuff as well, too. One more. I mean, there's multiple, because we can talk about the Steelers backfield too, but Chase Edmonds, to me, looks like the clear handcuff, you know, in that backfield for in the Cardinals' offense,

Kenyon Drake. If Kenyon Drake goes down, I think Edmonds is the guy. And that's what you really want to look for in a handcuff. If you're really going handcuff, you want the guy who's going to be the guy because it's not always clear. And I think Chase Emmitts is that. Craig is happy to say, Kenyon Drake's never had more than 170 carriers in a year. So as great as he was, that's a good. I do like Kenyon Drake, though. I think he's very good.

We all like Kenyon Drake, we're just pointing out. Who's the handcuff? Who's the handcuff in Pittsburgh real quick? Anthony McFarlane. So they've got, I mean, they've got Connor, Benny Snell, Jalen, Samuels, and Benny McFarland. So I think the issue in Pittsburgh is there's a few teams that, there will be a person that emerges. We don't know who that person is yet

because we don't know who the number two back will be and we'll have to learn that in training camp. The Steelers are like the number one example of that. I think Washington is a key example of that with like how much are they given to Darius Geis? Agent Peterson, are they going to cut Peyton Barber? Antonio Gibson they have.

Yeah, exactly. But I mean, I'll be interested to see how much of the workloads going to Darius Geis. Obviously, he's had a lot of knee injuries in the past. Also, I just wanted to put it on your guys radar. Stephen Ridley is going as the RB 176, 818th overall right now. Just keep an eye on him. He's not on a team.

But I don't know how fantasy pros even has this. He's going 818th. Okay, we don't have many rules in this podcast, but one of them is that when Stephen Ridley comes up, we are going to end the podcast. So to summarize all this, D.K. Craig, talking about zero running back. We just went through all these names.

Please pitch the people and why they should zero running back in 2020. receivers are safer long term than running backs and running backs are harder to project and if you can find late round value in running backs your team would be better at come playoffs. DK. Pitch the people in zero running back or against it. They're equally welcome. I'm just going to point you back to Pat Crane's

article at Establish Runner because I think that was one of the impetus is for us to do this show because it's very fascinating. But I'll just quote him. One of the foundational ideas of Zero RB is that no running backs are safe. And so I think that kind of gets to the crux of it. It's like basically you're saying,

I don't trust any of these guys. So I'm going to take the guys I do trust early on in the season or early on in the draft. And these are the types of players that are going to get me consistently high scoring, you know, high scoring weekly outputs every week. And then I'm going to hope that these guys later on, I'm a hope for chaos and these guys later on that I'm grabbing, you know,

hump late in the season when it really matters. Yeah, because how often has Julio Jones screwed you? You know what I mean? Well, it's just... Bad example, but I get what you're saying. But that's the idea. So basically what you're saying here, chaos is a ladder. Yes, we're on little finger.

Yeah, that's a good one. Chaos is a ladder. Stephen Ridley is chaos. This has been the Dancy Football podcast. Thank you, D.E.K., thank you, Craig. Thank you to everyone for listening. Please stay safe. We will see you guys next week.