The Ringer NFL Show - Time to Panic in Pittsburgh? | The Ringer NFL Show (Ep. 361)

Episode Date: December 10, 2018

The Steelers are in a tailspin (1:00), the Bears overpower the Rams (16:00), and the Cowboys are officially good again (28:00). Plus the surprising success of the “hook-and-ladder” play, today’s challenge flags, and tomorrow’s headlines (35:30). Hosts: Robert Mays and Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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What do you wish for most this holiday? If you're like me, you want all Ws for your favorite NFL team. Unfortunately, even Santa can make that happen. But the Yahoo Sports Mobile app can make it so you can see those games and more right on your phone. In fact, with the Yahoo Sports Mobile app, you can watch live local and primetime NFL games during the holidays and all season long.

Never miss big matchups or your favorite team in action. What are you waiting for? Download the Yahoo Sports mobile app and may all your football wishes come true. Unless, of course, your team is playing the Bears. to the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer podcast network. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark. Kevin, how you doing, buddy?

Robert Mays, Cleveland Browns are two games at a first place. That's definitely the most important thing that happened today. It's definitely number one on my mind. Nick Mullins has the most yards in a two-game stretch. Give this to me. Come on. Since Joe Montana. You're the worst.

I hate you. Got a little Nick Mullen's Joe Montana Nugget. We only have, I only have so many of these moments. Can I relish it for like 30 seconds? And the Chicago Bears are the first team in the Sean McVeigh era to hold the Rams without a touchdown. Really fun game. Just a standout performance by the Bears defense. We'll get to that a little bit later.

But obviously that's the last thing that happened before we started recording this show. So bizarre game. And when your quarterback throws three terrible interceptions, you don't expect to win by multiple scores. That's how good the Bears defense was tonight. It's everything you could have hoped for as a Bears fan outside of every single element of how the offense played. I kind of like that we looked at all these influential teams,

like the 2017 Rams begat some of the teams this year, some of the stuff the Chiefs did even early in 2017, carried over 2018 with a lot more teams. But quietly, one of the most influential teams were starting to see was the, 2017 Jacksonville Jaguars. I, all right. Let's do that very,

no, honestly, though, do that very quickly. Are you kidding? Or is there some part of you that's actually kind of a little bit serious? I'm a little bit serious. I mean, there's a lot more teams, and I'm not even a little bit serious. I'm actually a lot serious. There's a lot of teams who don't have quarterbacks.

And we're starting to see some really good defenses who are able to win in spite of bad quarterback play. And that's not something we thought was going to be possible in September, October, even early November 2018. I think that's... Two weeks ago, I think before the Saints game. Without a doubt.

And so now you're starting to see the fact... We thought, we looked at the Jaguars, two weeks ago when they bunched Bortles, and they say, oh, they're just a team out of their era. They missed it by a year. It's over. There will never be another good defensive team with a bad quarterback ever again.

And here comes everybody. Yeah, we'll talk about all that stuff. I think the Bears win is impressive. I think... even though the Ravens lost what they did against the chiefs and just the fight they put up, I think, as we're talking about. We'll get to all that stuff. We'll get to the week in general.

But let's start with a team that has confounded us for a couple weeks now. Yep. And continue to do, I mean, probably the last month, if you consider the highs and the lows. Let's be clear. Let's be clear. The last five years. No, that's also true. I have a very simple question for you.

We haven't named the team. Are we getting in the team? What the hell is going on with the Pittsburgh Steelers? Do you have any sense of this team? I'm not asking if your fingers on the pulse because I'm not sure if there is one. Do you have any idea of what to make of this team, what to expect from this team over the next month or so? I just, they are on both ends of the spectrum to me. They are on either just polar opposites of they can lay an edge.

against the Raiders. They can beat anybody. And I think that we just assumed, I would say as recently as two or three weeks ago, they're going to win the AFC North. They're going to be a player in the AFC postseason kind of picture. Now I don't know anything. They were in the two seed like 25 minutes ago. Yes.

So after they won the Carolina game, I think that my reaction at least was here come the Steelers. It's a team we're not talking about because they're, that was much. I mean, I think you were, you were pumped the brakes a little bit more than I was because I wasn't as quick to come around on the Panthers aren't good. But that game in general was like, man, this team was also, I was not ready to commit to the Norve Hype train. Oh, see, I was on the North Hype. I was driving the Norv Hype Tram. So that's maybe this is on me. Maybe this is just my overreactionary element.

But I still think that that Thursday night game, how their offense looked, it's like, all right, here we go. you know, we're overlooking them just because there are all these new teams we're excited about, but they're still Antonio Brown. Juju is still one of the more exciting players in the league. Rathasberger has this gear. And then over the last month, they've looked pretty terrible consistently. I mean, I know that Broncos game, you know, their offense moved the ball pretty easily, weird turnover is everything else.

But results independent of just how you look, they look like trash during the Jaguars game and they won. So if you just want to make those a wash, they have not looked good over the last month at any stretch. And now I'm just wondering, do they even matter in the AFC playoff race? Do they win that division? Do the Ravens somehow come back and do this? It just seems like any single outcome for them in the next three to four weeks is on the table. So there's a couple of things we need to discuss here. So the first thing is that the reason I wanted to start with the story, the reason I thought this was the biggest deal of the week, is I actually wanted to avoid what I've already discussed, which is sort of overreaction to,

specific results on Sunday. I think there's a, I think there's becoming a little bit of oh, it's snowing outside so global warming can't be real in the NFL. That's how I feel about the Patriots this week. Well, no, no. Just for example. Like, I just don't want to overreact to specific

outcomes based on a bounce of the ball here or there. Right. But I think that's what you're the point you're trying to make. I'm not even talking about specific how we feel about a team. I'm talking about the state of the league because we keep overreacting and the NFL getting more offensive and that's just going to keep happening.

And you can't say... Offensive or offensive. Offensive and offensive. Yeah. And offensive. I think both of those are true. But it's getting offensive. Like, numbers are going up.

And so this Bears Rams game doesn't say anything but the general, you know, direction of the league or anything like that any more than the Chiefs Rams did a couple weeks ago. It's not going to be 105 points. It's also not going to be less than 30 points combined. Okay. But what I think the most impactful thing out of Sunday is, is that the Pittsburgh Steelers are playing like a bad.

team. They have lost three straight games to the Broncos who that loss looks pretty bad now. The Chargers, which I guess in the context of they're the Chargers looks okay when you see it and it's at home and all the crazy mistakes they made. And they were up double digit points in the fourth quarter. I mean, it's all that stuff. Yeah. It looks much worse. And then this game to the Oakland Raiders who, I mean, I don't, I don't, I'm running out of words to describe them, I'd like to give you a statistic from Scott Katzmar football outsiders. Since 2007, NFL road favorites by 10 or more points are 60 and 11 straight up.

Okay. Mike Tomlin has four of those 11 losses. That's remarkable. I don't even know what to say to that. I mean, is that the definition of not showing up for games? And they're also predicted. We keep talking about this, how they keep playing down to the level of their opponent. And it seems like one of those things you just identify the problem and fix.

Do they not have as stringent practices in those weeks? I don't know. I honestly, I don't know and I don't know if anybody does. I mean, there's so many strange things going on now. I mean, I guess Tomlin, I guess this is going to cut Chris Boswell or something like that. He hinted at it. That's what a reporter say. Meanwhile, he's going to be $5 million in dead money because they signed him to a $17 million

for your contract over the summer. Did Chris Boswell, was he in the secondary when all those guys were running wide open for most of the game? I thought this was amazing, okay? So there was a Steelers blogger Alice Cizorra who tweeted so Ben Rosberg did not come back in and start the second half. And the reason is that a rib injury. And Tomlin said it was quote, we were in a rhythm and flow of the game. That's why he didn't come in when they asked him why didn't Ben Rossboro come in. Here were the second.

Wait, wait, wait, but here were the second half results on drive. before Rathusperger returned. This was the rhythm and the flow. Punt, turnover on downs, interception punt. That's great rhythm and flow, man. It's the best rhythm and flow. I mean, first of all,

that's just the most coach nonsense in history of the world. Rhythm and flow, man. Rhythm and flow. So, all right, I get all this. Watching that game, as a Stoos fan,

I just can't imagine how frustrating it is and just how maddening that experience would be. But let's, I want to wear two hats about the Steelers very quickly. One, you just said the Rathusberger thing.

They did not have the starting quarterback for a majority of the second half. The offense could do nothing without him, and that game was close and they almost won. Let's go back to the previous weeks. We just said double digits against the Chargers late in the second half, the Chargers were a good team. They had 500-something total yards of offense

against the Broncos, a few scattered mistakes. They beat Jacksonville. They've lost three straight. haven't looked good necessarily for a month, if they do make the playoffs, would you be surprised if they give one of these really good teams a run for their money? No, I wouldn't because... I think that's where I am with the Steelers. I was on a radio show a couple weeks ago, and someone was comparing the Steelers to Mike Tyson, which is just, it's just pure talent, you know? And I think about that a lot. It's just, it can be Antonio Brown and it can be Ben Rathesberger. And they can be

that over and over. And if it happens five times in a big way, you got yourself a win. They have enough talent around there where they're not going to give. I doubt, I think that them giving up 45 points to the Jaguars last year was sort of a once-in-a-lifetime event. I don't think that's going to happen again in the playoffs. I mean, hopefully not. And so I think that they can, they have enough talent where they can just make a handful of plays in one and beat a really good team.

So the Sears are seven, five, and one. The Ravens are seven and six. the Steelers play the Patriots and the Saints the next two weeks. I mean, if the Ravens beat in the Chiefs today, I mean, this would have been a five alarm fire. But should it be a four alarm fire? That's my question. It's a three alarm fire.

The Steelers can lose this division. And if they do, the dolphins are seven and six now. The five seed is done. Like there is no five or six seed race in the NFC, or in the AFC the same way there is in the NFC. It's over. The charges are going to. to get the five seed in the AFC.

The dolphins have seven wins the same way the Steelers do. If the Steelers lose next week and the Dolphins win, the Steelers are now out of the playoffs. If the Ravens were to win, excuse me. I think we should have seen it as more of a red flag when the Steelers tied Hugh Jackson. I'm just saying that is the gamut that the Steelers run. Is that a couple weeks ago,

it was written in Penn in my mind. They're going to win that division. they will give, whether it's the same or the chiefs or the Patriots or whoever, they will give them problems a couple of half time. And now we really do live in a world where it's not guaranteed that the Steelers even make the playoffs. And if they don't, what sort of conversations do you think are happening over there? So the Steelers have not fired a head coach since, I want to say they've had,

after this season, they'll have had 50 years of head coach stability. They've had three head coaches in that time. I think the last time they fired a coach was in 1960s. I think I've seen the staff. It was the LBJ administration. We were having this discussion last week about McCarthy when I said, I thought the Packers were the most conservative franchise in the NFL. And you correctly stepped in and said,

that's absolutely not true. The damn Packers just randomly hired Ray Rhodes one year. For one year. I forgot about the Ray Rhodes year when I was making that statement. I went back and did a little research as I was writing about McCarthy. So you are correct about this. But that's what I'm saying is that they are the picture of stability. They are the picture of not overreacting.

They're the team that is going to stay the course more than any other. But if they don't make the playoffs this year and considering the month that it's been, do you think some conversations start happening in that building? Yeah, I think the conversations happen. I think that I would not be betting that Mike Tomlin would be out of a job if they don't make the playoffs. I think that they're going to have like two long meetings and then he's going to, it's going to be sort of a, you better have results next year kind of thing. That would be my guess. I mean, this is the, I think when you look at the long view of it, Mike Tom one has, and this is kind of a Mike McCarthy thing,

remember when, um, remember when Mike McCarthy a couple years ago was really under fire and he was like, you know, guys, let's let's let's be clear. I'm a very successful head football coach. And when you look at his record, yeah, he was. He was in the midst of pretty much an uninterrupted playoff streak that was obviously broken whenever Aaron Rogers was out. But you look at Mike Tom when that's five straight, four straight playoff appearances for him. She had two seasons in a row in 2012 and 2013 where he did I make the playoffs

and he came back within 11 and five season the next year. He's gotten to at least the second round in three straight years. So I think if he has one sort of weird off here, I don't think they make a move at all. I agree. I think he's the coach next year. I just think that we're having a different conversation about the Steelers, you and I

than we were a month ago. And I'm curious what the Steelers conversation is about the state of their franchise and where they're going. Yeah, they're probably taking the long view since they've had three head coaches in 50 years. They're a little bit less reactionary than us. Is that what you're saying?

Well, you have to remember. So Bill Cowher went three years, 98, 99, 2000 without playoffs. It's amazing. That's the standard. To make the playoffs. That's the Steelers standard. Three years without the playoffs.

playoffs. What's going on? Yeah, no, I mean, it sounds great. Coward did it. I'm just saying you can, these guys, the Roonies, they're going to stick with their guy. Yeah. They're like, they're like competent, a competent version of like the cowboys in the sense that they're just going to like stick with their head coach. For the right reasons. Not the wrong ones. Yeah. Yeah, they stick with their guy for the right reasons and not because I, I don't even know.

I don't even know why Jerry Jones takes with Jason Garrett. But I don't, remember they stuck with Wade Phillips a year or too long. Jerry Jones, man, unwavering loyalty. We've talked about it on the show. Except to Jimmy Johnson. It's the only one. The guy who won you a couple Super Bowls. All right.

Let's get the stock up and stock down. Stock up. I think we should start with the Bears. Is that fair? This is very exciting for you. Go ahead. Just, I mean, we talked about a little bit at the open. Just a fantastic performance by the defense.

Vic Fangio, I mean, he's throwing a shutout all season. Today was another example. You lose Bryce Callahan. And none of it mattered. McManus came in and played well. Perfectly timed blitzes, great, really just blind stunts that were working, guys understanding exactly when to break on balls

based on coverages. He's been phenomenal all season. And today was a perfect example of it. That Rams team wants to play with play action. They do not want to be a straight dropback team. And if you push them off their spots and you get them off those timing and chunk plays, they're going to struggle.

exactly what happened today. I mean, there was a version of this game in my mind after seeing what the Lions did last week. It was like, I think this can go well. It didn't even hold a candle to what actually happened tonight. It's, I don't know, it gives me a lot of hope for what this team can do in any given game against any given offense. I know this was at home. I know it was 22 degrees outside. They're likely playing most of the NFC playoffs on the road, but you can't play a better defensive football game than the Bears play tonight? I am pre-tired. I'm preloading my exhaustion

for cold Jared Gough tics. Because he's not so he's not going to play a cold weather playoff game this year. It's going to be, yeah, New Orleans, Los Angeles, inside and it happens. Right, exactly.

So we're going to get next year, next November. Are you saying the Bears can't get one of the buys? Is that mathematical? not possible? Well, I don't think at the one seed. I'm just kidding. No, I know you're feeling it. I know you're feeling it. I just want to give you some perspective here. No, in New Orleans,

Los Angeles, Atlanta is the NFC playoff road. So, like next November, next December, it's all we're going to hear about is he grew up he grew up in California. He's not used to the cold. I'm just, that narrative was already making its way out today. I thought that was very funny.

It's the narrative I'm going to live with. It's Khalil Mack, and Akeem Hickick's terrorizing his life. And the Bears' defensive backs being very opportunistic players who have made a living now on jumping routes because they know how quick the ball is coming out.

It's nothing to do with temperature. Bradley's soul. Okay. It scores a touchdown. The only touchdown of the game. It was incredible. Are you aware of, first of all,

do you know what that play was called? I do not know where the play was called. It was called Santa's Sleigh. Oh, God, that's even better. Do you know when... Matt Nagy is my hero. Do you know when it was installed? No. Friday.

That's beautiful. I mean, that was, that was a, I was not reading anything after the game ended. I was rewatching other games. That was a fever dream. That was amazing. 10 linemen, right? 10 linemen, including a bunch of defensive linemen.

Yep. It's been a fun year. I mean, even in games where it's been frustrating, like last week, they're doing stuff. It's energizing. And it's just, I don't know. It's a fun experience to watch my football team. every week. And that's what I was asking

for this year. I had no idea how it was going to go. I assumed they would be within reach of a wild card based on what the defense could be and what I thought the offense could be with the talent and flux and Nagy taking over. And now it's beyond that. It's been a cool experience. I thought wild card

was a definite possibility. What I didn't think was a possibility was division because I thought and we both thought, really, the Vikings were going to be a lot better than actually were. And their downfall has changed, everything about the NFC and certainly how I view it. Couple of things.

Number one, Chase Stewart, great, great nugget here. Rams Bears, first time both starting quarterbacks have thrown three plus interceptions in a game since 2013. Do you want to take a guess to do the two quarterbacks were? They're still with us today.

They're still in the league? Yeah. And they're still extremely relevant. You didn't mean they're still alive? No. I was curious, how you're referring that. It was only 2013.

was Kirk Cousins one of them? No, Joe Flacco and Andy Dalton. Oh, that sounds right. That sounds right. So this was not, this was not a great offensive performance. We know that. As I said, this is the first time in 29 games

where Sean McBase team didn't score touchdown when he's the head coach. I am, again, I want to use the global warming analogy just because of snowing doesn't mean there's no global warming. I still think that the Rams way of playing football is the way to play in 2018. What I will say is, as we saw with the Cowboys and the Saints last week, is that sometimes maybe one out of every three times, whatever it is,

defense is going to shut you out. And I think that's really interesting. And that's going to be able to travel. Even though both the Saints' Cowboys game and the Bears Rams game, those teams were at home, defense can travel. I'm really intrigued now with the NFC playoffs just because I want to see when you've got, you know, all the, all the, the week to prepare on just one thing, you're not looking ahead to anything.

When you're in that state, can the Rams score 25, 30, 35 points in this Bears defense? I want to see this game again. In the same way, I also want to see Sands Cowboys again. I hope we get to see it again. I mean, that's where I'm sitting right now. So the Bears this season. I just want to say, the bigger the sample size between great defenses and great offenses, the better it is for observers.

I'm geeking out about this stuff. So the Bears have allowed more than 22 points in three games this season. The first is that bizarre Aaron Rogers comeback game in week one. The second is the weirdest game I've ever seen against the dolphins, excuse me, four times. That Dolphins game where Brock Oswald had 270 yards after the catch was screen after screen that the Bears couldn't stop. somehow. The Patriots who scored a defensive touchdown and, or excuse me, scored two special teams touchdowns, scored 38. And then there was the Giants game last week where there was a defensive touchdown and Odo Beckham through a touchdown pass. For the most part, this team has

not allowed a real team in the rhythm of a game to score more than 24 points. At a certain point, the defense is just good. And I think that tonight was proof. And I don't know. I don't know. I don't what the limit is. I don't know how far it can go, but tonight is what I needed to see to believe that it could be a very real factor in the playoffs. I totally agree with you. I mean, this is the stuff you want to see. If I,

if I've been making the argument, and I have over the past three months, that offensive football is just going to keep growing because of the rule changes, because of the young quarterbacks, because of the offensive minds that will be head coaches next year, get promoted. I want to see these sort of games

because it needs to be proven to me that that eventually a Rams team or a Saints team can go out and just knock the crap out of a defense like this. That's what I'm most interested to see. I mean, you saw sort of a low-grade version of it with the Ravens and the Chiefs today. It's not like the Chiefs played, you know, the greatest game of their season this year as a complete team.

I mean, Mahomes really bailed them out in cases. So let's get to Mahomes as the second stock up. We're doing that. We're doing that now? Okay. Nothing else say about the Bears? No, I just... Okay.

it's little stuff like the pick that Fuller had and Collinsworth is talking about how I knew there was more. I knew there was more. So Collinsworth is like, oh, it's just a simple zone defense. He's misread it. I'm like, this is the nonsense that drives me crazy. The bears don't play simple zone defenses. The bears have one of the more complex approaches of any defense in the NFL.

They play a ton of lock zone defenses where you have one corner manned up on the the field on the boundary side with zone behind it to the other way. And they do a lot of cover six lock where it's quarters and then one cover two safety and one man corner. It's just stuff that oversimplifying it is taking away the credit for how good Vic Fianjo is at his job. And tonight was a constant reminder of just how good he is. It just,

Jared golf throwing four interceptions is not a product of Jared golf playing bad. it's a product of the Bears having the best events in the NFL full stop exclamation point. Yeah. I don't know. It's get them. Get them, maize.

Get Collins word. All right. Let's move on. Before I get a little overworked, let's talk about Mahomes because... Okay. I didn't know what passed today. I thought the Ravens played great.

I thought their offense was super fun to watch. I'm just baffled by it every time I see what it is in practice and that it works against NFL teams. it's so fun. What Mahomes did today against, I'd say the second best event seen in the NFL, outside of just the sheer dominance of the schematic parts of who the chiefs are. The chiefs have been so good at just being like,

we will out-coach you, our guys will be open, we're going to score 45 points without even blinking. That was not who the chiefs were today. And Mahomes had to make so many, off schedule, just improv plays that, I don't know. I don't even know what to say. I was, they were, this is not the most impressive performance that the Chiefs offenses had.

It's the most impressed I've been by Patrick Mahomes in a game this season with the turnovers, everything. If that makes sense. Yep. No, it was a really interesting, it was a really interesting game. And Mahomes made at least two of probably the 10 best throws he's made this year. I'd even put it at it. More than that.

Maybe it's just because I was watching this game closer than I've watched other Chiefs games. But the no look throw he had coming across the middle. So from right to left, I mean, that was just insane. I don't even know who else in the league would even attempt to make that throw, let alone who could. And then there was that same drive he had the throw to wear up the left sideline where he had to step up through traffic and make that pass. And then the one he had on the first drive to Kelsey that he had to put over the

linebacker in front of the safety. on the right side line, that was one of the best throws you can ever see a quarterback make. I mean, it's just, they were constant today. And watching him have to make those throws again while being pushed off his spot, while having the timing of these plays thrown off, it's the best he's been all season. And, you know, I tweeted it that we have some people have discounted what Mahomes has done just because of how great the system is in Kansas City. And everyone's like, who's been doing that?

You know, who's been discounting Mahomes? two weeks ago, Drew Breeze was the MVP, not even favorite. It was consensus. Just because people thought that Drew Breeze, and I at one point was one of them, I'd go back and forth, obviously, part of it that I said Breeze in the preseason. But just because they say Breeze is number one, doesn't mean Mahomes isn't 1.5 or 2. Oh, of course. No one's ranking Mahomes, like, 35th behind like.

Of course not. But I think- Putting Ryan Tannahill ahead of them. I think the argument against Mahomes in favor of Breeze is that Mahomes was doing it in a perfect situation and Breeze had to shoulder more of the load within his offense. That's what I think that is a fair statement to make and I think that people weren't making it. What Mahomes did today, I think just kind of recalibrates the way I think he can be successful in the NFL no matter what's going on around him. I'm with you. I'm with you.

We talk about the Cowboys. Yeah. What do you want to say about the Cowboys? Do you want to do more of Mari Cooper, Crowe eat it? or are we beyond that? I don't care about it. It's, it's, again, it goes back to the fact that the Cowboys being good is really exciting. I don't, I don't really care.

I don't have a team, NFL team. I don't care either way. So a lot of people, I get a lot of this, like, like, whenever I have any opinion on anything, they'll be like, you're just jealous. I'm like, I don't know what you're, I'm jealous of. But nobody can say that to you. People can say that to me if they want to. Sure.

But I will say there's a couple of teams around the league that when they're good, the league is just better. It's just a little more fun. The Cowboys are one of them. So extremely strange game for large parts of a Dak Prescott looked quite bad. It was nine to nothing. It was nine to nothing. And meanwhile,

the Cowboys finished the game with 576 yards of total offense. They're most in a game since 1978. I mean, how many of those yards came on two, Umari Cooper completions. I guess three. And then and also by the way, they, a, they, the winning touchdown was deflected off of Rassul Douglas's. It was a horrendous throw. I mean, there's, if we're doing this sort of multiverse theory here, there are a lot of

universes out there where, where he returns that for a substantial play. I understand. There's not a lot of universes out there where, where the Cowboys won the game on that throw. That's all I'm saying. A lot of process over result stuff. I mean, you're up nine, nine. nothing at the end of three quarters. It's not like you dominated the game. You have those two

massive Cooper touchdowns. But those two massive Cooper touchdowns is why you deal a very high draft pick for Amari Cooper. I mean, it's not as if you want to rely on those sort of game breaking plays when you're trying to, you're throwing nine routes against third string cornerbacks. That's not going to be reliable in terms of building your offense week to week. But he has proven time and time again over the last month and a half that he's able to make just game-changing plays. And that's what this team needed. And he's been exactly that for them.

It's fun to watch. Good for him. I mean, I just, I feel like a lot of people were sour, they soured on him. They were very apprehensive about the trade in general. And I think that he's been a top five pick in a much better situation. That's all I've seen from him over the last month and a half.

And it's been cool. I mean, those games, those plays, him scoring those touchdowns is like, I don't know, how many receivers in the league could take over the game in the second an half like that. Not many. Yeah. I mean, I will say, just to qualify it a little bit, I mean, the Eagle secondary was really, they're terrible.

Sydney Jones. Sydney Jones should not have been on the field today. They're very, very bad. But at the same time, I mean, he's done that. I mean, Michael Gallup. Michael Gallup was getting open. And Dak just missed him. I think that someone said it was a fourth game in a row where

basically Gallup's been wide open and Dak has missed him by three yards or so. I mean, he had that throw, last week that would have assaulted the game away if he had hit it. It would have been a two-score game. I want to visit something with you. Jason Garrett, one of the Cowboys reporters compiled this. Jason Garrett describing the following players.

Ezekiel Elliott, hell of a football player. Amari Cooper, hell of a football player. Zach Martin. Talk about a tough individual. Dak Prescott. He's a tough son of a bitch now. Did Jason Garrett try to save his job by becoming a literal cowboy? I'm not going with literal cowboy.

You know that the episode of Parks and Rec where Ben is running the campaign for the senator in Washington, D.C., and they're wondering if the guy's a robot or not. He just sits in a room and stares ahead of himself for hours at a time. That's why I feel about Jason Garrett now. Should we actually do a test to see if he's a human being? Jason Garrett went to Princeton, and now he's like extra in Deadwood. He's from Pennsylvania. He's actually been cast in the Deadwood movie.

He went to high school in New Jersey. Every character in Deadwood, though, has way more personality that Jason Garrett could ever imagine to have. Wow. I couldn't even imagine Jason Garrett and Deadwood. That sounds like a Thursday topic. Yeah. We'll invite Mal on.

I'm sure she'll have a lot of thoughts about that. Is she a Deadwood head? I believe so, yeah. I haven't, I have not looked into this. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure Mallory is a big fan of all things, Deadwood. Okay. There are a lot of ringer staffers that have a lot of thoughts about it. If we want to open that candleworms, I'm not sure we do.

Yeah. So I don't. So, yeah, I mean, this is the Cowboys can, are, seem to be capable of anything right now because of their defense. I mean, and that's, that's the one thing I want to touch on with the Cooper stuff is, yeah, Cooper is leading the NFL in yard since the trade. Cooper has been a very, very good player. But if this defense isn't playing an elite level in most of these games at that point, we're having a very different conversation right now.

Yeah. I mean, key plays too. I mean, Gregory had the strip sack in one point. I mean, Van der Sash had that big sack. Again,

zero points through three quarters. They're playing extremely well. That's going to be their shot, but it's the combination of that defense playing as well as they are with big play potential, with being able to run the ball a little bit. Hopefully Martin's healthy. It's just there are enough elements to this team that I feel like in the right

moments at their ceiling, they could be problematic. That's where I sit with Dallas. Yeah, I agree. I mean, this is, it gets down to if you play five games between the top teams and the mid-tier teams, the NFC, these mid-tier teams are going to win one and a half of them. And I think come playoff time, we're going to see more upsets than maybe we thought a month ago. It just takes the one, though, and that's where I'm out with Dallas.

I think they have enough talent on defense. And then if you have those scattered big shot plays that they didn't have for the first half of the season, it becomes an entirely different conversation. We just went full, Herb Brooks and Mirks. miracle. It only takes one. It just takes one. If we play them 99.

All right. We play them 100 times. They might win 99. Was that? Yeah. All right. Before we move on, let's take a quick break.

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Yeah, that's where I was getting there. I know, no, I didn't know because we had talked about a couple of these teams. Okay, wait. So first of all, just for context, Dolphin 690 on touchdown was the longest touchdown with no time left to win a game in the Super Bowl era. That's good, okay? Is the hook and lateral the future of football Robert Mays? Showed up twice today, man.

More teams should do it. It won one game and had the opportunity to win another, but the Steelers went full Steelers. I got the Chris Boswell conversation. They went full of Steelers. Yeah, I kind of think that, you know, one of the things I've talked about when people have asked you what the next step in football is, I actually think it's kind of, it's not hook and laterals. It's sort of multiple people having the ball in the backfield and then one of them throwing

almost sort of like what the Saints are doing a little bit with three quarterbacks. I think if you have a crappy quarterback, it's better to have three of them and just have a little misdirection there. So Princeton does that where they'll run those option plays and they'll actually hand it to the guy that's the option runner

and he's also a quarterback so he'll be able to throw it. Right, but apparently when I tweeted about the hook and lateral that some people say the guy, Coach Kelly, the guy who doesn't punt, who's famous for not punting, his thing is that hook and laterals

are actually the next step in football. And I actually... Is the lateral a thing? As far as you're... going to say hook and ladder. It's the same thing. Yeah, I've never, I've never used that phrase hook and lateral before. The Wikipedia says hook and lateral sometimes referred to as hook and ladder.

But it's called hook and lateral, the Wikipedia. Interesting. I've never said hook and lateral in my life. It's like a regional thing. It's like Pop versus Coke. There you go. I just say you saying it like and you firmly believe that was the, that was the term. I was like, okay.

Well, I wasn't going to come in. I wasn't going to come in unsure. Good for you, buddy. doing your research. I appreciate that. I've always had hook and ladder. Maybe that's just varsity blues influencing the way I talk about football. Well, it's all the same.

It was a nuts. I mean, the play was insane. It was absolutely crazy. Even watching it in real time, it was hard to process. I mean, you have Grankowski back there, I guess, to prevent a Hill Mary. And then the last thing you want with a guy who can't move that well, being your last line of defense happens. Right.

So Rob Winkowski is not the guy you want back there. That's the lesson we learned. He's not Earl Thomas. I think we learned that today. Or like Julio's defended those plays pretty well in the past. In terms of knocking those balls down. Calvin Johnson. Calvin Johnson.

Yeah. Calvin Johnson has been a great, great last play guy. But they knew it, they knew it was going to be a hook and lateral. Excuse me, hook and lateral. They said that. I mean, you had to. it would have been a 70 yards in the air.

Is capable for half the quarterbacks, just not Ryan Tannahill. Half the quarterbacks might be strong, but yeah. I mean, I bet a lot of them could throw 70 yards in the air. I think at that point, you're probably pitching it. Josh Allen could do it, dude. Josh Allen has a cannon. That's what I'm saying.

I'm just saying it's not like we're looking at Justin Mahomes and Rogers here. No, they're a handful of guys. Stafford. I bet Stafford could. do it. I think fewer teams, I think less than single digits, the amount of teams that would probably pitch the ball in that situation. Derek Carr is a pitcher in that spot. But yeah, I mean, it's anything

just about the Dolphins victory in general. Anything else you want to say? Or just that play is kind of... The Dolphins are not going away. That's what I want to say. Yeah. I want to say that the Miami Dolphins, I mean, they had a chance to win that game in non-hook-and-ladder fashion. And so I just, I can't explain it. But, you know, when they get Xavier and Howard back to full health, they could make a playoff push. Yeah, I mean, that was their problem today is that they just couldn't really cover anybody.

I also thought that Brady had a handful of really impressive throws today. I mean, the touchdown throw to Patterson was gorgeous. The one to Edelman on that little whip was really nice. Even the one of Grankowski, it looked like it was in traffic, but his ability to place it over the linebacker in front of the safety was great. I mean, I thought Brady played better than I've seen. and play a lot of games this year, but there were so many scattered big plays from Miami,

and whether that is just kind of a blip, just more of an aberration from Miami's ability to string those together rather than New England's defense playing poorly, I don't know, but at the same time, if you're the Patriots, that's what you can't allow to happen. When Brady's playing like that, you can't allow several 50, 60-yard touchdowns to happen.

Can we combine the first stock down with my challenge flag? Sure, that's, that works. I want to talk about this for an extended period of time. All right, done. I want to talk about the Washington Redskins, Robert. I figured that's what you're talking about. Thomas Boswell, one of the best columnist in America. For a very long time.

For a very, very long time. Big influence on young Kevin Clark, better or worse. And on young Robert Mays for sure. For better or worse, meaning on my end. Certainly not on his. I mean, he unleashed, helped hone my writing style, which has now been unleashed on. to the planet for better or worse.

He called the Redskins a lot worse than bad. It looked unprofessional. And the more I think about it... That's that Kevin Kark disappointed dad tone. The more I think about it, the more that's just 100% right. It's not just bad. It's not like the Bengals giving up 51 to the Saints or whatever. It's unprofessional.

There's a quote in there. I can't... I can't even fathom it now. from Jay Gruden. That product was not a reflection of the work that went into preparation, Gruden said. However, it did look bad.

Yeah, no shit, Jay. So, that was one of the worst. They were down 40 to nothing to a Giants team that, I mean, I mean, they haven't,

the Giants are not the worst team in the NFL or anything. They've won some games. in fact, they're on kind of a mini hot streak, but you're going to have to give me something a little better than that. You went out and you said that Mark Sanchez knew the system, well, what the hell is wrong with your system? In fact, the worst case scenario is that this is Mark Sanchez when he knows the system.

I would go back and say, actually, we were just joking. Mark Sanchez had no idea what the system was. I don't want to. Mark Sanchez, six or 14, 38 yards, two interceptions. Josh Johnson comes in 11, 11, for 16, 195, one touchdown, one interceptions. Well, the game was already over.

No, of course. But I mean, it's, I'm not saying Josh Johnson did a nice job. I'm saying they got 230 combined yards from their crappy quarterbacks. I don't want to do the, the Cal and Kaepernick thing, the same with everyone else is just that you, I mean,

it's embarrassment. They're not looking at them, everything else. To me, it's more about just the thought processes that go on with NFL offenses and NFL coaches. to say and put out there that Sanchez is the guy you went with because he understood the system. And that is his redeeming quality. The Ravens within a week changed every element of who they were offensively because they had a better player available to them.

And that style of football was more conducive to them winning football games. And they're giving the chiefs a run for their money almost completely because their weird offense with their talented quarterback gives them a chance. This is not real. Matt Negi invented a play on Friday that had 10 linemen with it. Yes. It's just, it's so, so, so ridiculous to me that a team is going to come out and say because Mark Sanchez was the coach with our offensive coordinator when he happened to be the quarterback's coach in New York six or seven years ago, he's a better option for us to win a football game on Sunday than a player that's considerably more.

talented than him that happens to like playing in a different style than we use, the excuse is just don't hold up anymore. That's just not how it works. There are better ways to go about this. So I would like to talk for a second about the Kaepernick thing because I've always been of the theory and I've said this many times that there was, I don't think in my opinion there was a league-wide collusion. I don't think there's an email anywhere saying, Don't sign Colin Kaepernick. What I think what it was was probably even worse for the league. It would set 32 owners or pseudo owners look to the situation and got scared and are cowards.

Like that that's that's sort of what I think. And I think that so it's it's not some sort of crazy directive. It's just every NFL owner isn't committed to winning enough to give in to distraction culture, which is not a real thing. distraction culture is largely trumped up. The Seahawks got in a fist fight the week they won the Super Bowl and one of their players had a black eye. And that seems like a distraction, but then they won the Super Bowl.

Like there's, there's, I've said this before. I once asked a Jets player, I said, we were talking about distractions. And he said, you know who gets really distracted? Really bad teams. They get distracted because they suck. Yeah, the Redskins look very distracted today. Yeah, they get distracted because they're just thinking. about how crappy they are, right?

Like, that's how it happens. The Washington Redskins had a play, not only a playoff chance, but statistically, before the Alex Smith injury, they had a really good one. They had a one game lead with the, I think, one of the easiest schedules left in the NFL. They're six and seven, okay? That's not going to happen anymore because the Cowboys have run away and hit in this division and that ship has sailed. But what it shows me, their actions signing Mark Sanchez, playing Josh Johnson, all of this,

It shows me they weren't committed to winning. And I think that this is a lesson for everybody involved, who's a Redskins fan, that their franchise, once Alex Smith went down and said, we do not care about winning. That's as simple as it gets. You either care about winning football games and doing everything you can to do them within the realm of possibility or you don't. And the Redskins have systematically over the last three to four weeks

show that they just don't care. And good for them. If you don't care, then that's fine. But you might as well come out and say that. We would rather lose than make the right decisions. So I'm with you, man. Doing that as a stock down on challenge flag seems right. Let's do one more stock down before we get to my challenge flag.

And that is the Denver Broncos who, I don't know, just didn't know George Kittle was a person today, apparently. Yeah, I thought you said George Hill. And I was like, what did I miss? George Kittle. Maybe they don't know George Hill as a person either. I don't know if Vance Joseph is an NFL, NBA fan or no. I was like, what was that George Hill trade?

What the hell is going on here? So George Kittle, really, really good. It's funny, Riley McAty and I, or we actually were in Slack earlier, and he was talking about how there's really only three tight ends that matter this year, especially in fantasy, and George Kittle is one of them. He's a breakout star.

So the 49ers are not a good team. They've lost to the Cardinals, pretty much unforgivable for a Broncos team trying to make the playoffs to lose this game. Yeah, it was just one of those things. They could not cover Kittle in the first half. And obviously the 49ers didn't score much in the second half. It's because they sat on the ball almost the entire final two quarters.

I mean, that is just a team that really doesn't trust their ability to continue moving the ball. But what Kittle was able to do, I mean, it's part scheme and part just he's a really, really talented player. That's all it came down to today. I mean, he had 200 yards receiving in the first half and the game was over. They took the error out of the ball after the first half ended. because of how good George Kiddell was for the first two quarters. It's nuts. Like an NFL game should never have that sort of script.

Hey, shouldn't the 49ers have tanked this game? A lot of teams should have done that today. Think about how many teams won unnecessarily that are in line to have the number one pick. The Giants won today, the Raiders won today, and the 49ers won today. Good on the Cardinals. They came through. The Giants have five wins. The Giants are out of it.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, again, the Cardinals really understand what's at its sake here. And I appreciate their style. Someone's, the Cardinals are going to get Nick Bosa here and they're going to be really happy. They didn't try to be heroes. Yeah, there's no reason to be winning games at this point in the calendar. All right.

Can I do my challenge. The 49ers were a little bit more forward thinking than that. Yeah, challenge flag. I just want to throw a challenge flag on the idea of hiring a defensive coordinator as your head coach. Because I know a lot of teams after tonight, after this. season are going to be looking at Vic Fangio and they're going to say, oh boy. They're going to say, hey, I mean, look at the job he did with the Bears defense. Shouldn't we give him a chance?

And no, you shouldn't give him a chance. It's just not a smart way to build your franchise at this point in time. You really should not hire defensive-minded head coaches as your head coach. Is this a reverse? That's where I'm sitting right now. You can't if you want to, but not Vic Fangio because he will not succeed as a head coach. He also hates puppies. I don't know if you saw that.

This is a great bit for you. I have a question. Does Vic Fangio want to be a head coach? So that's kind of what I'm banking on right now. If you haven't been able to tell, I'm joking. I don't think you should hire a defensive coordinator as your head coach at this point. I think there are better ways to do this. But I also am just trying to cling so hard to Vic Fangio not getting a head coaching job this off season.

And my number one, I think, hope in all of that and the number one chance as to why he wouldn't is that he's a this 60-year-old guy who really doesn't give a shit about being a head coach. So, okay, I'm not reporting in anyone but I'm going to say it. But I remember I have a conversation with someone who played for him recently. And they were basically just like, you know what? Vic Fangio loves his guys. And he loves just building a defense. And he loves just being a mad professor on that side of the ball.

And I don't think he would say no to a head coaching job. But I don't think he's going to go out of his way to, you know, move the pieces around to get a job. I think if someone pulls a Greg Williams and says,

just sign the letter, he's going to be okay with that. But I think that he really, really likes his life. That's why he stayed here, you know,

that whole deal. And so I just think that he, he, I think if a team comes knocking in as aggressive, he's obviously not going to turn that down.

I'm just saying that this guy I was talking to his base suit is like, Vic Fangio really, really enjoys being defensive coordinator. That's my hope. I mean,

he's been in the league for 30 years. He's 60 years old. They signed him to a three-year contract this off-season. So I'm not sure that they'd be willing to offer him more money. But if he came to the team and said I'd like a little bit more, I'd give him what he wanted. Because I think that we've had this discussion so many times over the last few weeks about how it's hard to maintain success because you lose certain elements of who you were. I mean the Bryce Cowan injury.

Let's say Bryce Cowan's out for the next four weeks. That's the type of stuff that dings you as a defense and as a unit. and obviously losing your coordinator is the biggest element of that. And for the bears to maintain or kind of have any continuity on that side of the ball that they've had this season, they need him back. So if he comes and says, I want so and so million dollars to be the defensive coordinator, I would do it no matter what it was. And I hope that the money, what you just said and just how long he's been in the league and the idea of starting over at this point in his career is out there enough that he's willing to stick around. because he's been fantastic. So let me ask you a question.

Divorcing yourself from Bears' fandom. What do you see as his ideal destination if you were to take a job? I think the team I could see hiring a defensive-minded head coach would be Tampa Bay. If that makes sense. Just because they've been so bad defensively for the last couple years. I wouldn't do that, but that is the team. If you wanted to spin it from me and you wanted to sell it, I could see it. So let me ask you a question.

What about the Green Bay Packers? with a sort of new school Zach Taylor-esque play caller? I think if you have the right play caller on offense, you can hire a guy like Vic Fangio. I just don't know if you want to bank on that formula. I think that formula is much more volatile than having your head coach be your play caller.

That's what I believe in right now. Okay. I think that instead, I would rather have Vic Fangio plus a really interesting, innovative play caller than like the third or fourth best offensive guru. That's fine, but Vic Fangio hates puppies and no one hates puppies should be the head coach in the NFL.

I think there might be a lot of openings. I really hope people don't think I'm serious. I'm like actually trying to not get Vic Fangio this job. I just really love what this defense has been. I tweeted that McVeigh learned too many of the Bears names and people and people are like, no, that's called preparation, dude. like, what's wrong with you? And I'm just like, I'm sorry, you learned too many names.

I'm just hoping that people don't think I'm serious. I'm not trying to, you know, thwart the man's mobility professionally. I just, it's really hard to do as good a job as he did as the defensive coordinator of this team this season. I mean, it's in this era, throwing a shutout like he has schematically is almost impossible. And watching him walk away the season would be not that fun. All right. Next week's headlines very quickly. What do you think people are going to be talking about tomorrow and over next day?

Bears, bears high. baby and cowboy's hype. I don't want to do this. Bears, well, I mean, it's going to get overshadowed by the Cowboys hype.

That's fine with me because Mitchell was not good today. So if we can pump the brakes on the bear's hype, I'm okay with that. Three and a half quarters, Dak wasn't good. And now he's Troy Aikman. It's fine.

Hype is fun. I mean, like, it's, listen, it's our job to, to point out the long game and the fact, you know,

Cooper is going to be worth $13. $1.9 million next, all that stuff. But like, if you're a Cowboys fan, don't worry about that stuff. Just talk your shit, man.

That's kind of how I'm with the Bears right now. I also, I don't care. This is the type of stuff I'm now thinking as a Bears fan. I'm really glad they're paying the Packers next week

and not another team because next week is the exact type of letdown game you'd expect after winning this one. And I'm really glad it's Green Bay at home. Like, that's my thought process now

as a Bears fan. It's like, oh, good, we're not going to have a letdown game after, you know, oh, no, you just get Aaron Rogers who's trying to,

who just did actually a pretty good performance with Joe Philbin. But I'm just saying, like, the bears are not going to lay an egg against the Packers. I understand that. But that's not the type of game you're coming into like, oh, we got this. You understand that you are now thankful to see Aaron Rogers. Solely because I know that the Bears are going to show up for Aaron Rogers. That's why I'm thankful to see him in no other way. This is a very, be careful what you wish for a thing, Robert Mays.

I'm sure he'll throw for four touchdowns and they'll lose by 21. But in the sense that I think the team will show up, that's why I'm glad that the Packers coming out next week. All right. Is that all we got? That's it. All right, guys, as always, thank you so much

for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network. And we'll see you on Thursday.