The Ringer NFL Show - Top 10 Coaches Going Into the 2021 Season

Episode Date: July 12, 2021

Kevin is joined by Danny Heifetz and Warren Sharp to pick their 10 best coaches in the NFL. Host: Kevin Clark Guests: Danny Heifetz and Warren Sharp Production Assistant: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Listen up all you New York fans. Veteran New York sports talk host, John Dostromski gives his unique take on all the big stories in the Big Apple and beyond, including guest conversations, gambling picks, and reactions from you, the listener. Check out New York, New York with John Dostromsky on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It is the ring of our podcast network. I'm Kevin Clark. joined today by Danny Hyfitts. He's in Austin, Texas. Danny, what's going on?

I am fantastic. A lot of barbecue. How are you good doing, Kevin? Why are you in Austin? Is it, are you going on Rogan tomorrow? Yeah, no, that's actually, how did you know? That's not supposed to get out. Yeah. Trade secrets.

Warren Sharp joins us as well. He's at home in Virginia. He's in grind mode. He's in, he's in beast mode right now. The book is coming out very soon. Warren Sharp, tell us about it. It's actually out now. We just released it like an hour ago.

An hour ago. Boom. You can get it up at sharp football analysis.com. 462 pages where I try to impart every single thing that I thought was a value that I learned from studying the coaches, the teams, the philosophies, the new players, everything that they did since the start of last year to the end of last year and what they did in the offseason. And then I throw in a lot of predictions, thoughts, things I want them to do, things I think will do this upcoming season. It is a beast, like you said, it's been a crazy grind for

the last three, four months working on it. And as soon as I'm done, I'm always so happy. I've not started drinking yet, though, but something will be flowing later tonight. I can guarantee it. Feel free to start drinking in the middle of this podcast. Yeah, it's fine. It works. Warren, I told you that the Brady Belichick Patriots won the AFC East more often than

condoms prevent pregnancies. Did you get that into the book? Yes or no. I did not. You saw me retweet it. I did not get that into the book, though. Oh, well. Wow.

Wow. Okay. So we're doing the top 10 coaches in the NFL this year. It is very good to have worn on having just done a deep dive into all the tendencies, all of the coach profiles, all that stuff. And it's good to have Danny Hypatts on for, you know, he's a big Giants fan. So he knows good coaches, Ben McAdoo, that kind of thing. Jason Garrett on staff. Fred Kitchen. All right. So let's let's dive into it. We got a lot to get to. too. So it's going to be our top 10, 10 through one at coaches we want for the 2021 season. It's pretty, pretty easy to do. There might be guys where I think maybe they'll be a better coach in 20, 23 than some of the guys we have in our top five, but sometimes the body of work thing. We will start with Warren Sharp, Warren Sharp, who's your number 10? Yeah, I'm going to go with a guy that you just kind of described there because I'm looking at the future of this coach, and I'm going to go with Brian Flores.

Oh, okay. So I have been really, look, it is very difficult to tank and still keep a core belief amongst your roster. And he was able to do that, I think successfully, his first year on the job. They were able to get their quarterback of the future. Now, will he be the quarterback of the future? We will see very soon into a tongue of al-loa. but I think that they were able to get him still rebuild in the right manner. I really am excited to see their offense and the young core of talent that they have there this

season, what they're going to be capable of doing. And then, of course, you look at his strength on the defensive side of the ball. And the only real way, guys, that I can put, there will be one exception higher up on this list. But more often than not, the only way I'm going to really think that if you're a defensive coach, and I'm going to put you as one of my best coaches. A, you kind of let the offense do its thing. And B, your side of the ball better be buttoned up really well. And Brian Flores' side of the ball defensively is buttoned up really well.

So I'm really excited to see what he does. I think I've enjoyed what I've seen thus far. He's not perfect. That's why he's number 10, but I think he's a great coach. I also have Flores at 10. I love this. Oh, nice. I love this.

I think of the world of Flores, but he's not a great coach. on my list. That's fair. That's okay. Okay, a couple things. Let's interrogate this. And just so the listener knows, if I'm playing devil's advocate on this, it's just a spur of conversation.

I really like Brian Flores, but I have a couple of questions. He's 30 second on my list. No, that's Zach Taylor. But he definitely, Flores to me, is definitely in the mix to be a top 10 coach for me. So a couple of things I want to interrogate for both of you, because you both have Flauze a top top 10. Number one. Does it worry you?

Okay, you talked about how his side of the ball is buttoned up. Does it worry you now that he's had a new offensive coordinator every single years? Part of this is running a staff, making sure you make the right hires, all that stuff. Does it worry you that there's been turnover on the offensive side of the ball, Warren Sharp? No. I mean, I think their coordinator last year was largely, I mean, grandpa gaily. He had no business being a coordinator, but I don't think that he was the long-term answer there. I think his familiarity with Ryan Fitzpatrick was a large part of that kind of relationship.

I'm, I will say this, I'm excited to see what George Godsey does for this offense. I think, you know, nobody knows who this guy is, except for some people. He's very intelligent. And I haven't spoken with him multiple times. I'm excited for what he could potentially bring to this offense, a very smart guy who understands how to win games. And I think it's going to be interesting. But no, you know, the fact that he brought in gaily and hired gaily, yeah, of course,

I was like, what the hell is this? I did not understand why he brought him in, but it made more sense with Fitzpatrick being there. We'll see. You know, it's a valid point. It's a valid point, but it does not discourage me enough to push him out of my top 10. Okay.

First of all, with the George Gottz, you know, we knows who he is. note, how dare you erase early 2000s Georgia Tech football? I'm sorry. The lesions of ACC fans, including myself, just up in arms. Danny made the case for Flores and help me just square this part. The dolphins lost by 30 points in week 17 in a game that they had to win. Does that concern you at all? Well, yeah, that sucks, but they still have 10 wins on the season.

And it's like Kevin Stefanski had 11 wins and one coach at the year. and it's like, I'd take the Brown's roster over the Dolphins roster 11 times out of 10. I just think, Brian Flores from the moment he got this Dolphins job has done more with less. He basically inherited an expansion level roster and then, like, in 2019, and had like five, went five and three down the stretch of that season, which was better than the Pats had with Tom Brady. And then the last year, I mean, to your point about the offensive coordinator thing, I think that that's the Belichickism of like he's not afraid to move on from mistakes quickly, which is what you want in a head coach.

I agree with that. I agree with that. Listen, I think the world of Brian Flores, I'm with you on the roster. The fact they were able to build a culture, I went down to Miami and did a whole story in this couple years ago. The fact they were able to build a culture during a year when everyone thought they were tanking is one of the most remarkable tightrope walking jobs I've seen in the last decade of NFL football. So I think the world of Flores, he's just not, he's on the fringe of the top 10 for me. Top 10 for me, number 10 is Mr. Pete Carroll, self-explanatory over a 60% winning percentage. He is not perfect, as Warren Sharp said. from perfect, but he knows how to build a program.

He is a consistent winner. The years, you know, we talk about some of the years where they lack roster talent, and they still win. Obviously, there have been mishandlings of the offense, but I think that's moving in the right direction, not running the McVeigh offense there with Shane Roldren. So I think that it's hard. For me, I'm going to have more of a body of work list and maybe you guys are. And I think that Pete Carroll has to be a top 10 coach within that.

Is Pete Carroll on your guys' list? No. I left him off because I quickly. realized as we did this list, a Super Bowl winning head coach was going to have to not be on this list. And if you look at all the Super Bowl winning coaches, the one who I'm least confident in moving forward is Pete Carroll. He's the oldest coach in the league. And also, all the Seahawks fans kind of get mad at him every game, which I think actually matters. I don't, I don't think it does. I think fans get mad at coaches sometimes. I think it's fine. I think fan base sentiment is not as

important on this list. I think body of work is, is important. I think. think that, you know, we talk about it all the time. I think that I remember Mina coming on someone these day, a few years ago and just talking about how maddeningly frustrating he is, but he is almost, it's almost, like, he's an objectively good coach, right? Like you, those two things can be true at the same time. You can be a good coach and you can be frustrating.

Obviously, as I said, they have mishandled Russell Wilson in spurts, but hopefully they're running in the right direction. I did not like, I really didn't like, the fact that they let Russ cook, so to speak, and then they pulled back. as soon as that that experiment seemed to be lagging just a little bit. They did not stick to it. But I feel like I'd still rather have Pete Carroll than a whole bunch of coaches in the NFL.

Let me throw in a counterpoint to that. Okay. When I'm looking at body of work, I respect body of work. I respect what somebody has done and how they got to where they are and Super Bowl and all that. But I'm looking forward and I don't love him. I think I've got an average on my list. I've got him average on my list.

Um, I, your, your point at the beginning, you said he was a good coach. He is a good coach. But to me, um, you know, I, I do agree that you could debate, well, is he 10th best? Is he 12th? Is he 15th? Like that, that those are all good coaches. So I'm not going to argue with you for your placement of him, but the, you know, his, this is what I don't like about guys that don't not, don't work on the offensive side of the

ball. The thing interfere with the offensive side of the ball. There have been multiple offensive coordinators where they're, you know, it was Darrell Beville or what Brian Chottnheimer tried to do last year, where Pete gets involved and clearly the offense changes from being more pass-heavy to like quickly, very quickly change to being run heavy. That is clear coaching involvement on his perspective. You know, him winning the Super Bowl, I'm not going to give him the credit for that

necessarily. He was a great coach like at that time, but you got Russell Wilson as a third round pick on that rookie deal. You've got an excellent defense that a great GM is built up for you. Like, you know, I think Pete has done very well. I do think he's a good coach moving forward. Would I want him more than maybe half the other coaches in the league? Potentially, but he, he doesn't crack top 10 for me. But I could see, I'm not going to argue with you too much. I just wanted to present a little bit more of a seller. Oh, no, that's what I want. So here's my question, Warren. And let's just get this out here. So if you're given, if you're given control of an NFL franchise,

And you're given a average NFL roster, just like, you know, scramble the Madden ratings. You're just getting a C roster. You'd rather have Brian Flores for over a three-year period than Pete Carroll. That's correct? That's correct. Okay. I would rather have. I feel that way, too.

Okay. I think he's a program. I love Brian Flores. Again, I think that both these guys are program builders. I've just seen Pete Carroll do it at the highest, highest level. Number nine, Danny Hyfitz. Let's do it. I got Bruce Ariens.

And I don't know, maybe I'm violating the rule here of like, you know, process versus outcome. And maybe I'm just doing this because they won the Super Bowl. But you know what? I felt really dumb if I didn't have the guy who won the Super Bowl like a few months ago in the top 10. And he had Brady. It's an amazing roster. But you know what? It's not more complicated than that.

I shoehorned in because they won the Super Bowl. I don't think that that's processed at all. I mean, in the NFL, he has a 60% winning percentage. He had over, he won 61% of his games with Arizona. he got to an FC championship game. He built one of the best teams in football in a place that I think that winning is not necessarily a given.

And now he's in Tampa and in a second year he wins the Super Bowl. I understand, first of all, the fact that Brady wanted to play for him, the fact that they went out and recruited him the way they did. What was it operation in Chulis Joe, whatever the hell they called it? You do get credit for that. You do get credit for recruiting Tom Brady and having him. Brady wanted to play for him. But then also,

building an offense around him really quickly and taking some of the principles of New England and some of the principles that he's had in the past. He's developed a lot of good quarterbacks and helped a lot of good quarterbacks who we didn't necessarily have when they were young. And I don't, I don't think it's, this is not like some random, this is not like Dan Quinn got Tom Brady won the Super Bowl or whatever. This is a good coach who Tom Brady took the next level.

So no, I don't think it's, it's playing the results at all. Warren, where are you on Bruce Arendes? If I had to pick top five coaches that I loved, like literally loved, Bruce Ariens is in that. Like, I love Bruce Ariens. He is not in my top 10 right now. There were some things that I saw, first of all, one of the most conservative fourth down tendency coaches in the NFL over the last couple of years. Secondly, the first down rate of running when you've got Tom Brady last year was

disconcerting to me. I thought that over the course of the season, like they had a very late buy. Then they came out of the buy and they started using motion. They started passing more on first down. And we thought that would roll into the Super Bowl into the postseason. That did not. They came way back to Earth and all of their playoff games. So I did not love that because those plays were just so inefficient.

And you're the offensive coach on that side of the football. Tom Brady had to get them out of jams far too often on third downs. his motion rate is below average in the NFL. I hope that they change that and pick up their pre-snap motion, play action rates, et cetera, this upcoming season. So I love him. I love what he's done. I mean,

I loved him when he was in Pittsburgh as the offense coordinator. And obviously he left there and the interim coaching job that he did in 2012 with the Colts. I mean, my God, how could you not respect and love that? I thought he got much more than what his team was built. You know, when we talk about that type of thing. when he was with the Cardinals. Now he's fortunate to have, like, riches at quarterback,

riches at talent all over his roster, and he's putting that to work. So I love this guy. For me, it was a narrow decision just outside the top 10, but I totally respect him. Okay, so a couple of things. Number one,

I think that we haven't even mentioned Todd Bowles, the fact that he hired Todd Bulls, empowered Todd Bulls to be one of the best defensive play callers in the NFL. He manages a staff, really, really well. And that's something he's been doing for a long time. And so I think that there's just a lot there for Bruce Ariens. He's my number seven coach. I just wanted to get him out of the way now because here's my one question. So we don't have to come back to it. Yeah.

If Jared Cook doesn't fumble in the Saints game and the bucks losing the divisional round, I don't think he's in my top 10. Would he be in your top 10? Uh, I think it'd be on the fringe. I think it'd be on the fringe. And I also, but I also think, first of all, breaks are part of it. I mean, there's a reason where England lost the euros and we have a completely different discussions than we would have had they made those penalty kicks. But I also think, you know, Sean Payton, we talked right, Super Bowl week and he was just talking about how dangerous and how hard it is to win playoff games on the road to begin with. And Sean Payton basically said before the Super Bowl that the bucks were going to win because

going on the road and winning a playoff game is really hard, let alone three. And I think that you're going to need some breaks in the weird. a season of all time. And by the way, when you're talking about the Saints, this is a team, the Saints spanked the Bucks twice. And the Bucks got better as season went along and they got to a place where they could go on the road and win. So I think that there's, I think that yes, you can kind of retcon any, any break in NFL season. I mean, what if, what if the chief offensive line had been healthier? You know, what if they hadn't lost Eric Fisher, all that stuff. There's just a lot of what ifs. They won the Super Bowl. I'm okay putting mid seven. Warren,

and shut number nine for you. Well, number nine for me, this one was the most frustrating to place on my list because he's been a guy that I've been the most critical of. But when I look back at like him, his tenure, and I'm again, I'm trying not to look back at like history too much, but the reality of it is like with this guy, it's very difficult not to consider it a little bit more than some other guys. And that's Mike Tomlin. And the reason I have him here is just because you see, like if we're talking about managing players and motivating players, like look at the head cases that those, that team has had over the years. Once those guys leave Pittsburgh, I mean, all of a sudden, it's clear like the prima donna level stuff that some of these guys have.

I mean, even a guy like Ben Rothsberger, who's still the quarterback and all his like clearly psychological issues and different things, Mike Tomlin handles all of that, has never had a losing season once, I think in 17 years. It's absolutely unbelievable. And then you have the two elements that I talk about when I'm talking about a defensive mind of head coach. Is his side of the ball great? Yes, it is.

His side of the ball was outstanding. Secondly, did he let the offense do its thing? I mean, look at this team last year. Though it became inefficient and highly predictable, this team was just fucking throwing the ball all over the place last season. So he was not a defensive coach like a Pete Carroll was who's like, I'm scared of passing the ball too much. I think you can only win by running it, even though our past game is more efficient.

Let's start running the ball more. No, like he was like, if we can't run the football, let's fucking throw it. And so that's what the Steelers were doing last year. So I respect that. Again, although it wasn't efficient, the run game was even worse. He clearly doesn't have, I guess maybe, like enough power. I would have rather them do something different in the draft and the players that they picked. But overall, like this guy is.

a winner and I stuck him in my top 10. But again, there's been a lot of times that I complain about him. There's certain times when his teams clearly are not motivated enough in certain situations. Like, it's not often, but there's that one time when they play a crap team that they just don't even get up for. And it's like, the hell, they're 11 point favorites and they lose this game outright. Like that seems to happen too frequently to him. But overall, I think he's, he's, he's in my top 10. I want to address a couple things there. So first of all, you're correct. I mean, he's won 65% of his games in Pittsburgh. And, you know, every coach has their flaw. And the question is, how big is the flaw? And if the flaw is that Tom 1 gets his team up to play every

year, they're always competitive. They are never bad. But in the middle of the season every year, he has two or three clunkers and plays down to the level of a bad team in November, I'm ready to take that flaw. There are a lot of teams that would sign up for that particular Achilles heel. And so I'm with you. Mike Tomlin for me is number eight on my list. I think that he just, I was just actually rereading over the weekend, the score takes care of itself, the Bill Walsh management book. It is just absolutely amazing as far as just football leadership quality is gone. It has almost nothing to do with X's nose and everything to do with kind of people management. And the longer you go in covering the NFL, being around NFL people, you realize

the schemes are the barrier for entry and knowing that kind of stuff and being a master of that kind of stuff is is required. But there's a lot of guys who've mastered the scheme part of it. And knowing how to motivate guys, knowing how to bring guys together. The amount of retroactive coach of the year awards, I've thought Mike Tom went should win once we saw the personalities in the locker room once Antonio Brown goes to Las Vegas and tries to get cut immediately on all that stuff. Levyon Bell is feuding with Andy Reed all of a sudden after playing like 10 snaps for him. Mike Tomlin's ability to win with those guys is really remarkable.

So he's number eight for me. I've got about fourth. He's never been below 500. Take us through it. Yeah. I mean, that's it. I mean, I think you guys nailed all. I just wanted to hammer home.

Like, the Steelers have had three coaches since Richard Nixon is president. It's a lot of pressure coming to that job. He has never been below 500. That's unbelievable. And if every coach in the NFL is a free agent, there's only three. I'd rather have them, Mike Domlin. All right. Number nine for me, Sean McDermott.

We're talking about program builders here. I'm just going to keep talking about program builders and body of work. You could feel, you can feel oftentimes when you go to training camps, when you go and visit teams and seasons, you can feel when everybody's rowing in the right direction. And Buffalo was a good example of a place where you would talk to coach GM and assistants. And you'd say, wow, it's only a matter of time, right? Like I remember, I was listening to Marin a couple months ago. And somebody was talking about seeing Guns and Roses rehearse when they were like, you know, three years before they were popular and they're just like oh wow you can just start setting the clock

on these guys being successful and i remember being there in the first year in buffalo and bean took over mid-season so it wasn't instantaneous or anything mid-off season so it wasn't instantaneous or anything like that um they had still had a lot of waley players but you could tell that they were building something special and that they knew how to manage people and that they know how to how to build and so it's happening uh the bills are going to be good for the foreseeable future they're a legitimate a FC contender every year. What they've done with Josh Allen on the offensive side of the ball, obviously Sean McDermott's defensive coach, but what they've done to allow him to hire Brian Dable, to retain Brian Dable,

to be a place Brian Dable wants to work, to empower Josh Allen's development. I think it's been extraordinary. I'm in on Sean McDermott. Is he got on your guys' list? 100%. Yep. He's actually number five on my list. Oh, okay.

I, again, defensive guy, but let the offense do its thing. look, it wasn't easy, I think, to take a flyer on Josh Allen. I think a lot of people were questioning, you know, his accuracy and some other things coming out of Wyoming. Now, obviously, you've got a great GM who's helping make that decision. But empowering Josh Allen saying to Brian Dable after Josh Allen's, you know, 2019 season, which still wasn't great. I mean, Josh Allen made just ridiculous strides from 2019 to 2020.

And one of the things that Brian Dable was like, is like, hey, McDermott, we're going to come in and we're going to throw the ball a ton on first down with this guy. And McDermott had to think, you know, okay, this isn't something I'm typically comfortable with doing. I've never done this in the past. We're generally a little bit more of a balance slash run first team, play good defense. Now I got an OC who wants to take a quarterback who wasn't particularly accurate and throw the ball all the time on first down.

But you know what? He let Brian Dayball do that. And they came out and their defense wasn't quite as great last year. their offense had to carry this football team and, you know, credit to him and buying into that philosophy of day ball. I agree. This team is in a great position. I like the open-mindedness of this coach.

And I'm really excited to see what he continues to do. I have him at fifth. I've got him seventh. I mean, it's like it's one thing to break a playoff curse. Like the bills, I mean, they hadn't made the playoffs since 1999. Like Y2K was still a thing the last time the bills made the playoffs. Now he's got them there three of the last four years and they look better every year. There's a difference between just backing ass first through the playoffs and actually building a program that we're going to be there every year and they're just improving.

And also, I would say, obviously they made the playoffs their first year. They played in the Tyrod Taylor, Blake Bortle's game. But the program wasn't complete yet, and they were winning anyway. And obviously, so Brandon Bean takes over from Doug Whaley in the middle of the season. And they were winning with guys they probably shouldn't have been winning with. And you look, you know, Pete Carroll is another guy where they had the Beast Quake game. They go 7 to 9. They win that playoff game.

The ability to win early when it's not your guys, when you haven't quote unquote built everything, is really a mark of a good coach and a guy who knows how to lead people. So I've been hugely impressed every step of the way with what the bills have been able to do. All right. Who's next for you, Warren Sharp? So a couple of guys that are going to be on my list coming up here are guys that aren't, nearly as established, let's say as Mike Tomlin,

um, had been coaching nearly as long. But if we're talking about the future and what this guy could do in the future, um, with an average roster, uh, I'm going to go with Matt LaFleur here at number eight. And I am extremely encouraged,

although he had a massive brain fart in the NFC championship, with his fourth down aggressiveness in general, um, his EPA per drive. Like if you're on the offensive side of the football, we need to look at what this team is doing. And you guys know for me, core tenants and philosophies,

get out early, build halftime leads, be explosive early in that game, to put up points, make the other team adjust their strategies at halftime and try to track you down in the second half while your entire playbook is open. And the Green Bay Packers,

absolutely, I mean, they got the number one best EPA per drive EPA per play in the first drive of the game. They come out and they have the lowest run rate into eight plus man boxes. I mean, I've got in the book that I have out, I put a new sheet in there, guys, that has strategic coaching markers. And I look at roughly like 12 different metrics, such as run rate into eight plus man boxes,

such as early down motion rate, such as, you know, ability to get halftime leads and a bunch of other factors in their fourth down aggressiveness and whatnot. And so I ranked all the coaches. And, you know, this team is great in almost every single one of those metrics. He's not perfect. He's definitely not perfect. And I could argue that could he be 10, could he be five? Like, I could see you try to make arguments for any spot there.

This upcoming season, if he doesn't have Aaron Rogers, I mean, good luck. Like, that's going to be a definite challenge for them because they've been so. built around Aaron Rogers. But when you look at what this team has done, you know, all the arguments that have been kind of in favor of Aaron Rogers, which are like, well, look at what Aaron's done and his wide receivers haven't been there and his tight ends haven't been there, all these different things. Well, that speaks to what Matt LaFleur has done the last two years as well with that offense. So for me, I have him at number eight.

I think LeFleur is the hardest person on this list to rank. I mean, I don't have, I don't have them in the top 10. You could also convince me I should have had him in the top four. because he's 26 and 6 in this job. It's basically, I mean, it's one of the best three or four starts for any coach ever. I mean, he's ahead of like Vince Lombardi. He's ahead of like everyone, but like Curly Lambo to start his career. In the second quarter of every Packers game,

there's the graphic of Matt Ler's winning percentage. And it's like Vince Lombardi and like Chuck Knoll. Having said that, when he took this job, wasn't everyone, wasn't the everyone saying the most important thing he has to do is make sure the relationship with Rogers is good? Other than winning the Super Bowl itself, wasn't that the most important part on the journey to winning a Super Bowl?

and like, I just, I don't know. Part of me is like if the Rogers relationship does fail to materialize, even if Roger shows up, if he gets traded next offseason, I don't know. Isn't that partially Matt Lafleur's fault? Well, Matt Lefleur's come out and said that he's on Roger's side. I don't know. Warren, help me here.

I don't think it is. I don't think it is. I think to me, naturally, every relationship is important. And so if that relationship broke down and Leflore could have done more to broker and improve it between the front office and and Aaron Rogers, then sure, then maybe a little bit of that falls onto Matt LaFleur. He's certainly not, I think, neutral in this situation. Like, he needs to be a little bit more aggressive in trying to help that. That being said, I mean, look, I love Aaron Rogers. I think he's an excellent quarterback, but, you know, like some of his relationships have been

kind of interesting, at least what we've seen reported too. Like, I don't know that he's the easiest cat to get along with. And, like, you know, all these guys that are uber talented that are a little bit more reclusive or quiet, you know, they can take offense to a lot of different things. And it's hard to be aware of every single thing when you're trying to run the team as a head coach. I certainly would have done things differently. I've been lobbying for them to do things a little bit more to help him in the offensive

side of the football. But I don't think that's enough for me to, like, downgrade LaFleur at all on this list. That didn't really factor in for me. I completely agree. Danny, I think that Aaron Rogers, if he decides he's not going to like somebody, he's not going to like somebody. I don't think, I don't think Vince Lombardi, Andy Reid, Bill Belichick, would be able to have a good enough relationship to where if Aaron Rogers doesn't like the GM,

it would patch over that. I just don't, I don't think you can indict LaFleur for Aaron Rogers being unhappy with the front office. The only case I could see being made here is like if Rogers thought I can never, leave Matt Lerlick because he's such an amazing coach. We're going to win every Super Bowl together. Like maybe you would think that I have an Andy Reid or whatever, or Bill Belichick. But by the way, even Tom Brady left Bill Belichick.

But I don't, I don't think that, I don't, I really don't think you can drag, you can punish L'Flufler for Aaron Rogers' relationship with Brian Greton-Gunct. Can't do it. Where do you have L'Fleur on your list, Kevin? Not on my list. But that's all that. That's separate.

That's a separate thing. That's, it's a, so I think the matter oflure is amazing. I just, he's kind of in the, so for me, I can't divorce, it's almost, we talked about with a lot of these guys, I can't divorce Rogers from Lefleur. And Lefleur is really good. But that roster is, is awesome. Aaron Rogers has been the MVP. Lefleur's ability to unlock Rogers has been unbelievable.

And I think Lefleur, at one point on my list, he was really, really high. And then I just kept going through it. And I just said, you know, he's probably 11th or 12th. I think that if Rogers comes back this year, I would not be surprised at all. if the Packers won the Super Bowl. But I just think there's just a lot of good coaches in the NFL right now. So it's true. It's true.

I can just grill you on your Lafleur take and also not have them in the top 10. Two things can be true at once. Schrodinger's take. All right. So have you done your number eight yet, Danny? We're trying to get the list here. So if Lafleur's hard for me to judge, the other one that's really hard for me to judge is who I have at eight,

who also could be outside the top ten for it. It's John Harbaugh. And I also just don't know what to do here because even, just in recent years, there's so much that's unbelievable that they've done. Also, just kind of like a roller coaster of emotions for the Ravens. I mean, they had Flacco. And look, we all know that obviously if they thought Lamar would be an MVP in two years in his career, they wouldn't have taken Hayden Hirsch, 25th or whatever.

So they have the Flacco season and, like, Harbaugh might be losing his job. They switch to Lamar. They build this whole offense around him. He becomes an MVP. Everyone thinks they're going to win the Super Bowl. And now they disappoint the playoffs. And now they're in this weird spot where they have to go out and free agency and the draft and they're fixing the receiver room.

They have to give Lamar a deal soon. This is a real inflection point for the Ravens coming up this season. And I think that Harbaugh is so tough for me to rank. I have him at eight. And he could be four spots lower or higher after this next season. I'm just really curious to see what they do with this roster. Because as Warren's been saying the whole time, special teams coached by trade. And the offense has for better and worse really changed during his time there in a lot of

different ways. But it's just not producing right now. So one thing I want to avoid on this, and that's why I've gone to more of a traditional body of work type of list, is how, how reactive these lists can be. I remember last year, I think I had Doug Peterson at eight. Don't quote me on that. And Eagles fans were just really mad at me. They were like, how could you not have Doug Peterson higher?

And then a couple of months later, Doug Peterson is fired. And obviously that's not all Doug Peterson's fault at all. That's a separate discussion, separate podcast. but I feel like sometimes I think John Harbaugh was among the best coaches in the NFL in 2019. He has a weird season in 2020. The Ravens are still pretty good.

They just don't have generational quarterback play from Lamar Jackson, who was still again, very good. He just wasn't the league MVP. So if I'm making decisions in a vacuum here and I'm saying who to vote for 2021, it's not like John Harbaugh forgot how to coach or got worse at coaching. He just

had weird circumstances in 2020 and he got some things, something, some some things regressed i mean i can't sit here and say all the things i said in 2019 about john harbaw about how he is put on a master class in figuring out what your quarterback can do not what he can't do and empowering those guys and and and building an offense that specifically tailors to incredible talents of lamar jackson and obviously he's he's always had the defense ready to go i i i praise john harbaugh so much and the one thing i don't want to do is say oh he was only good in 2020.

He's 10th for me. Everyone I've got ahead of him has a Super Bowl or has been in a Super Bowl in like the last two years. So I think eight's surprising. Sure. Eight's still pretty high. I've got him a five. I've got him at five.

I've got him at two. And I'll give you my reasoning for that. So look, the way I tried to approach this list from my perspective is, yeah, the past few years are important. I care more about who you are, what you stand for, what I, what I expect I'm going to get out of you in the future. And I'm not trying to judge what your specific roster looks like necessarily. I'm trying to figure out what is important to you versus what I think is important to having a good head in a good head coach. And that's where I'm going to rank you.

And that's why I have Harbaugh at number two. As we know, like he's not an offensive guy. But he was able to, I mean, I completely disagreed with his take this in the entire time. that he was like Joe Flacco's an elite quarterback. Like BS, there is no way Joe Flack was an elite quarterback. I fucking hated that take. However, he was doing it so that he could get his quarterback confidence because that was what was required for a guy who wasn't an elite quarterback to perform at that level and he used it to win a Super Bowl.

He goes in with the Lamar Jackson and completely allows the offense to be overhauled in the flip of a switch to a totally. different system in the middle of a season and produce outstanding results by just crafting the style of offense around that. He's one of the most aggressive guys on fourth down that we have in the NFL of, you know, the number one guy on my metric of a fourth down aggressiveness rate. You look at things that I know that are smart that they are utilizing, such as their motion rates, things like urgency early in games to build up leads. There are a to get these leads and force other teams to, you know, come from behind.

Like, I just think that this guy's gotten it done with multiple different types of teams. And for me, like, where, like, where he is mentally, like, what he stands for from a human level, having seen that in action. And then what he thinks is important mentally, like, those are things that really carry him up. And that's why I have him as one of the. single best coaches that we have in the NFL right now, which is funny because before they started Lamar Jackson and when the team was going five and 11 and eight and eight with like

crappy quarterbacks and all that, like he was on the hot seat. Like he was about to be fired. So, you know, I think I think he's evolved tremendously. And if the last three years didn't happen and he kind of just got washed out the door with, you know, Joe Flacco, that would have been a shame. and I obviously, like, admittedly, wouldn't think of him in the same regard as I do now. But I think he's like just come a long way. And, and I really respect him. So there's an old Bear Bryant line or about Bear Bryant where they said he can take his players and beat you. And then he can take your players and beat you, right?

You can take, he can figure out either side line and figure out what to do with these guys. And when I think by the top five coaches, I think about guys who can do that where John Harbaugh could take any roster. We've seen it. We've seen it with Flacco. We've seen it with Lamar. We've seen it with some of the defenses. He could take any roster and hire the assistance necessary and figure out what to do with it. And everybody in my top five, I feel is like that. And is adaptable, has an open mind exactly what you need for 2021 when everything is so multiple. Schemes can come from anywhere. That to me is what coaching is right now. Warren Sharp, number seven. Stephansky. Another one of the new school guys who does not have any type of body of work. And I'm

absolutely trying not to, you know, I can't rate the, the, obviously none of the first year head coaches right this year are going to be in anybody's top 10. We don't know what they are. You by default have to stick them at the end of the list almost. Danny has Dan Campbell at one. Let's see. Did you see my list? I'll have some, we'll have some takes on that one, if that's true. But, um, with regard to Stifansky, I just think, you know, the different levels of, of quarterbacks that he's been able to elevate on that offensive side of the football, the way that his team sort of rallies for him, what he was able to do in the COVID year. I mean, I bet this guy at 30 to 1 and 25 to 1 to win coach of the year before the season

started. So naturally, I think he's a good coach. I thought that the fit was going to be perfect for him, helping elevate Baker Mayfield from something that he wasn't getting in prior years to being in this Defansky offense and getting a lot more out of him. And obviously that was spot on. His ability to coach the team without even being there for the playoff game. With COVID was just a sign of things to come, I think, a sign of a phenomenal coach.

And absolutely, I could see why you would say, oh, maybe this is a little too high. But when I look at it, he's, you know, all the guys from here on out are above average for me on my list in terms of fourth down tendencies and aggressiveness. They were number three on the list in the NFL last year. And I'm excited to see what's to come. But if you're talking about confidence in your pick, obviously I'm going to have a lower confidence in him than I might in some of the others who have done it longer. And again, I reluctantly am relying more on a smaller body of work, which I don't want to love to do.

But I also don't want to punish a guy. And to me, no offense, but like elevate a guy like Pete Carroll, just because he's been doing it for decades. I'd rather have the guy who I think is a little bit more forward thinking and hasn't done it long enough, but still has proven himself well, he has done it. And that's why he falls at seven for me. So I absolutely see your case. And I look at it this way. Number one, imagine being the first coach since Bill Belichick to win a Brown's playoff game. Okay, that's number one. Number two, imagine doing it in your first year. number three imagine doing it in the weirdest year in the history of modern football but that is the miracle that kevin

sefansky did and if you want to add a fourth it's that it didn't even seem that weird when it happened it wasn't some miracle this wasn't lester city this was a brown's team that was good that was playing its best football in january in december and okay they ran into a bit of a buzzsaw in in the divisional round, that's fine. But the fact that everything seemed, the fact that nobody was surprised in the Browns won a playoff game after decades of futility is one of the best endorsements of Kevin's fancy. I love the guy.

Danny, is you on your list? He's not. He's my honorable mention. I have him at 11 and it came down to, I had him or Flores, and I just felt like Flores won one fewer game with a roster that's like five wins worse. I hear you. All right.

Number six, Danny. I got Sean McVeigh. I don't know what to say about this since Sean McVeigh literally. has podcast episodes on this feed. So, I mean, but the thing I just keep from you back to is the most recent one. The most recent one. After this, the person who's listening to this podcast is going to hear Sean McVeigh's voice next on the pod if they stick around.

So yeah. And you're ranking him at six. And you're ranking him at six. I probably should just left him off and be like he's not really, like part of the question. Is that Kevin, I take it by the way that you're angling here that you have him higher. I do have a higher.

I want to hear what Dan he has to say, but just quickly, where do you have him? I haven't before. Okay. All right. Keep going, Dave. What about you, Warren? Where do you got them? No, no, I want to hear your take.

I'll jump in. To Kevin's point about can you beat, you know, I can beat, you know, your team with my players and then your players. I think what he did with where Jared, it's easy to forget where Jared Goff and the Jeff Fisher Rams were before he showed up. It is one of the most significant coaching upgrades we've seen in modern football. I mean, it's up there with like Jim Harbaugh taking over the Niners. and it's pretty hard to go back and be like, this team went from that to that. And so I think that just because obviously he's young

and obviously there's a certain style and things have kind of been labeled onto him of like what he was doing with 11 personnel and stuff, I think it's underrated the adaptability. That's really it. And I think that that's a pretty highly rated thing here. So I know we don't need a belabor. If you want to hear about Sean McVeigh,

you can listen to him right now in this feed. But I think the adaptability is very underrated. Warren, Sean McVeigh, where is he? I mean, I don't know if I'm allowed to share my opinion. opinion because we're going to be hearing from him next. He's a big boy. He can handle it. I have him just outside the top 10 actually. And it's not because I don't, it's not because I don't respect him. It's not because I don't think he's not a great offensive mind. I think both of those things are true. And, you know, in hindsight, if you were asking me to pick, would I pick him

to take over a neutral team and a neutral offense and try to win a game? You know, maybe, maybe I do put him a little bit higher. I think I put him a little bit lower because having studied deeply, you know, some of his fourth down decision making, his play calling, his run rate into heavy boxes, like how much of this was Jared Goff, but then again, he was on board with paying Jared goth a bunch of money, right? I mean, I don't know if he was the key decision maker behind that, but they obviously gave Jared Gough a pretty nice contract with Sean McBay in the building. So, like, at one point, I guess he did think that Jared Gough was worth that amount of money. I hope that they're great.

I hope that they're awesome. I do not think that he is a bad coach. They're just on the offensive, like I spent a lot of time looking at the offensive side of the football. And there were just a tad too many nits for me to pick on that side of the football from a decision-making. process that I was like, you know, like I'm going to push him down a little bit. But I respect the hell out of him. I think he is a very good coach, very good. And I certainly can't argue. Like, I knew that this was going to be one of the more controversial moves of not putting him inside the top 10. But I like him. He's just, he's just on the fringe to me. Just so the aggregators had this

correct. Warren Sharp thinks that on the Shanahan flying coach episode that Sean McVeigh is the third best coach behind Peter Schrager and Kyle Shanahan. Is that correct? Well, I will say this. I don't know. That's not correct. But I will say this. I absolutely love Kyle Shanahan too.

Like Kyle Shanahan is... Is he in your top 10? No. No. Wow. All right. So... I have Shanahan.

We got a lot of work to do. We got a lot of work to do. Okay. So I'm going to make the case for McVeigh here. Number one is obvious. He's won 67% of his games. Number two is that Jared Goff was one of the worst rookie quarterbacks in history, not among first round picks, not among first overall picks.

I'm saying that if you look at the stats, he was like Andrew Walter level bad. I remember seeing those sort of comps as far as his statistical profile in 2016. He turns Goff into a player who gets a big second contract. I agree that was a mistake. They should have moved on from him when they could. but now they have Matthew Stafford and they're going to win. They made a Super Bowl. They went on the road into a stadium where, you know,

I was at that Superdome game. And I understand that that was a blown call and all that. But I also understand that that was the loudest building I've ever been in the Rams won that game. Didn't score a lot of points in the Super Bowl. That's fine. Made the playoffs last year. Never won less than nine games in season over the four years.

I just, I don't, if you, whether it's schemes, whether it's man motivation, whatever, for I'm taking Sean McVeigh over most guys for a neutral roster, neutral team. Like, if that's the way we're going for 2021, I want Sean McVeigh to be the guy who's leading at over 25 other coaches. I want to talk about Shanahan here, Warren. What will be, first of all, first of all, who do you have as a better coach? Sean McVeigh or Kyle Shanahan?

Kyle Shanahan. Okay. Sean just texted me. He wants Warren off the pot. Yeah. Yeah. We're good to be replaced by Peter Schroger. Okay. So why make the case? So let's take Flores as kind of the line here, since you have number 10. Why would you rather have a Flores running your program than a Kyle Shanahan? For me, I think I know, look, Kyle is my favorite offensive coordinator, my favorite play caller in the NFL. There is none above that. So if you're telling me that I,

would have to hire him to be a head coach because that's the only way I would be able to get him calling plays for my team and how much we know offensive matters in the NFL. That is the case that I could make for Kyle Shanahan. Clearly, though, we have seen him not have a lot of success unless he has got his quarterback there. He's struggled to win with people other than that quarterback. And my case for why I would take Flores above Kyle Shanahan is, is simple. I don't know where Flores ceiling is. I think I've seen what Kyle Shanahan's ceiling is. It's good. And I love him. Like I said, he's my favorite offensive play. They were winning in the fourth quarter of the Super Bowl like two years ago. The ceiling is, yeah, I get the ceiling is that they almost

won the Super Bowl with Jim McGropolo. He almost won the Super Bowl with Matt Ryan too. He should have had at least one Super Bowl by now. That is not a knock on him. I'm not saying that he's bad. I'm just saying that, well, I mean, Brian Flores has been the defensive coach in one Super Bowl. Like, I think that Brian Flores is still a great coach. All of these guys, like, I will say this, I have Flores at number 10. I have Shanahan at number 11, and I have LaFleur at number 12. It's very difficult. And I think it's like throwing stones to try to say, well, which one could be in the top 10? Like, how do you not have him in the top 10? Because he could have replaced this guy. could have been nine or he could have been 10. I totally agree with that. And I also can't argue

if you think Kyle Shanan is like one of the five best coaches because you value offense a ton. I looked down my list. I started from the top and went down and I can't displace my top five guys with Kyle Shanahan or Matt LaFle. I just can't do it. We'll get there eventually. We'll see what my top five are. But I just can't put them there. And so then it's it's kind of like I'd be very, if I was the Jets, if I was, you know, any team that just hired a head coach, I would be thrilled, overjoyed, ecstatic to be able to get a guy like a Kyle Shanahan, like a Sean McVe. It's, I'm trying not to knock the guys. It's just hard for me to slot them up that high when there's guys that I value a little bit

more than that. Understood. Get where you're coming from. So do you have LaFleur is better than McVeigh? Yes, I do. And that sounds completely strange. But I don't know what, again, I don't know what LaFleur's. ceiling is yet. I have seen Sean McVeigh, and I hope that he does brilliant things with Matthew

Stafford. Like, there's nothing more that I want to see Matthew Stafford win games. I mean, I think hopefully we can all agree that Matthew Stafford deserves to fucking win in the NFL. Like, I hope that he crushes it with Sean McVeigh this season. But I don't, LaFleur's been there for a couple of years. we all talked about the positives that he's brought to the table. I know he's a disciple and all of that, but like, for right now,

I'm putting the floor higher. Direct all your complaints to at Sharp football on Twitter. Danny and I bring them. Bring them in. Have different tapes. Can we link you here for one second? Because I feel like what is this list.

Coaching to me is the whole greater than the sum of the parts. Yeah. And I don't know there's very, I mean, can I just spoil my list here? I mean, I've got...

I think we have to... I think this has gone in so many different directions now. We all just have to do our top fives and then get into the nitty-gritty. I got Belichick at one because don't overthink it. I've got Andy read it two because don't overthink it. And I've got Shanahan at three.

And the only reason is that Shanahan's three is those three coaches in different ways to me epitomize the holes greater than some of the parts they put people in positions to succeed. A quarter of the NFL has remade their offense in Kyle Shanahan's image because his team fundamentally puts people in position to succeed.

Case and point. Here is my favorite Niners' stat. Here's Shanahan to me in a nutshell. The list of quarterbacks who have the most passing yards ever in their first 16 career starts. So their first 16 career starts in order of the most passing yards.

Patrick Mahomes is number one at like 5100. Nick Mullins is two. Andrew Luck is three, Kurt Warner's four, Tony Ramos five, Herbert is six. and then Kirk Cousins is at seven. So you got Kyle Shanhan out here has Nick Mullins with almost 5,000 passing cards

in his first 16 starts. I feel like that's what you want in a coach. And then also the Niners almost just won the Super Bowl a couple years ago. Okay. So the way I viewed this, obviously, as I said, is kind of if you're just taking any roster, who would you want? And the secondary way I viewed it was kind of what you said

as far as just like taking both sides lines of a game and winning. But I would also say, and this might be bordering on kind of pseudoscience and a way to judge this, but if I was an NFL coach, whose team do I not want coming

to my house on Sunday? Yeah, that's a good way to do it. Because I don't, I would love that to host the Zach Taylor Bengals. I would love at this point to host the Matt Rul Panthers, the Urban Meyer Jaguars,

bring them on. But I would rather face the Brian Flores Dolphins and that program right now and have him on the other sideline than Kyle Shanahan or Sean McFay. That's just the way I view that. And maybe going forward Warren's right, but I just think with the body of work,

I think that we know the ceiling and the ceiling is almost winning the Super Bowl. And I think before this whole deal is done, I think Shanahan and McPhey will both have Super Bowls. I don't know. I can't say that about Brian Forres yet. The one thing I'll say about the Nick Mullen's angle is you're absolutely right. He's gotten stuff out of these guys, but he's had a horrible record with

C.J. Betherd with Nick Mullins, with Brian Hoyer, with all of these guys, the teams do not win. Like, he cannot get these guys to win. So they might be putting up yards in garbage time and whatnot, but they cannot win. The one thing I'll say, because I haven't hit my number six and we just heard all of Danny's top five. But the one thing I'll say, even before I get to my number six, because he's a little bit of a different category, I had number six. I had number six. I had number six. Kevin Cefansky, I had number eight, Matt LaFleur, and I had number 10, Brian Flores. Those three guys, I'm judging them and placing them there based on potential and what I've seen in such a small sample size and where I think they might be able to go. But they clearly don't have any level of track record nearly as we've seen from what the 49ers have done, what the Rams have done, what the

bucks have done, you know, with Bruce Ariens there. So I don't know yet. Like, and Mike Tomlin sits there at number nine. And, you know, yeah, I, I, I, it's really hard for me to argue again, like I said, once we get through these top five, you'll see why I don't, in arguments I can make for why I don't have, uh, Kyle Shanahan up there. But doesn't mean I don't love him. Like I said, I love him. He's my favorite play caller in the entire NFL. Wow. All right. So I actually, because I expected our lists to be generally the same. I was going to go 10 through one, but because of the splinter here, we've had a, what's it called in, uh, in Loki? Nexus event. Yeah, yeah, we've had one of those. And everything has just splintered now. I think we should just do five through one. Thanks for

inviting me on. Thanks. And then debate it. No, Warren, this is, this is amazing. Um, I feel bad for Kyle Shanahan, but this is tremendous content as the tweet goes. Uh, Warren, give us your five through one. And then I'll give my five through one and we can debate it. Okay. Well, I've, well, I've, even even hit number six that's frank rike oh okay make the case so so i mean frank rike and what he's done with the variety of different quarterbacks that he's had to work with like he crafted a game playing completely around andrew luck uh his team with jacobi brisette in 2019 where they lost andrew luck like right at the beginning they had to figure out how to win with jacobie brissette you'll look back the history books will look back at a seven and nine team and that's what this was a team i

research it wrote up about it that had the lead going into fourth quarters unlike any other team that ended up losing games like this was this team was number three behind whoever went to the super bowl in 2019 i think it was like the the chiefs and the patriots and then it was the colts in terms of teams that led more often heading into the fourth quarter like and and they spiraled out of control they finished in third place but i still liked what i was seeing from frank rike and then you saw last season the way that he molded and crafted his offense around Philip Rivers. And I think in every single situation, we would argue that this Colts team was not as talented as like some of the things that they were doing.

They went to the playoffs two out of those three years, potentially should have, could have even gone if they held on the leads like an average team even would have in 2019. They're very aggressive on fourth down. And they do a lot of other things that I think are extremely intelligent. The one thing that he doesn't do a lot of that I don't like is early down motion and runs a little bit too much into eight man boxes. But I like him as a coach. I like what he's able to do with his quarterbacks.

And, you know, I could easily see somebody getting upset with me putting him here and complaining that, you know, Kyle Shanahan is much more proven and is significantly better. So I can't, I can't really argue with that too much. Like, it's a debate. It's up for debate. He's not in my top five, but he's in my top 10. Here's my top five. We've already hit on two of these guys.

I got Sean McDermott for the Bills at number five. I got Sean Payton for the Saints at number four. I got Bill Belichick for the Patriots at number three. I got John Harbaugh for the Ravens at number two, who we already discussed. And I got Andy Reid for the chiefs at number one. And those five guys, I just can't put Sean McVeigh. I can't put Kyle Shanahan up inside those. the list six through 10.

I'm up for debate. You can move these guys interchangeably. One day I'll feel a little bit better about one guy. One day I won't. But I mean, those top five, like I have so much respect for, we already talked about the bills and the Ravens. And I mean, what can you say the ways that Sean Payton is to be able to craft offense win games with his quarterback playing well, his quarterback playing injured, his quarterback

not being there, having to use backups. Like, Sean Payton is a great. NFL head coach, in my opinion. And I mean, then you got Andy Reid at number one and Bill Belichick at number three. So I just can't, I just can't move some of these other guys up inside that top five, even though I think that they're very good head coaches. Okay. So let's talk about Peyton here for a second. Warren, what are you expecting in the post-Breeze era from the Saints and what Peyton may adapt to? I mean, I hope it's not Tayson Hill. Like, I'll have second thoughts. If we're seeing like Tayson Hill out there running the offense.

I really hope we get to see James Winston with his LASIC vision and being able to dissect defenses a little bit better. I'm really curious to see what we're going to get out of Michael Thomas, right? I mean, you had Tampa Bay last season taking him out of games and calling him the slant guy. You know, is he still going to be impactful even if it's James Winston a quarterback without that chemistry with his QB? Like, that's up on Sean Payton to do. like it's kind of like if we're talking about Matt LaFleur, if Aaron Rogers isn't there.

Like I respect the hell out of you as a coach. Good luck. Like just because you're a good coach doesn't mean you're necessarily going to be able to solve the puzzle and win a game with this guy. You certainly get elevated if you do. Sorry, without the guy that you have. And so like good luck to Matt LaFleur. Like I think he's going to be a great coach.

I like him. But if he doesn't have Aaron Rogers, good luck trying to compete and win games. And the same thing is true with Sean Payton and the Saints. I still think that he is a great head coach in terms of your specific question. A lot of question marks for what he's going to be able to do. But I do think that James Winston is more capable than we've seen him play at times in his prior stint with the Bucks. And it's just going to take one hell of a coaching job to be able to take this team into the postseason. But the good news for them is I think Carolina is still not quite there and not even close to being quite there.

Let's be honest. And the Falcons obviously took a little bit of a step back here with that roster. And the condition that I'd say Thomas Dimitruff left that team in when he left town, I mean, that that roster is just in dire straight. So. Okay. So I'll do mine quickly. Six, Kyle Shanahan, five John Harbaugh, four, Sean McVay, three, Sean Payton,

two, Bill Belich, one, Andy. Reed. Danny, you had Belichick won Andy Reid, too. Yeah. That's just a body of work thing for you. I mean, I feel like there's no more what have you done for me lately than docking Belichick for the last 18 months.

He's Bill Belichick. I agree with that, but I also think that Andy Reid probably over the last few years has been kind of a one B there and he's made two straight Super Bowls. And so I just, I don't think it's knocking Bill Belichick.

as much as promoting Andy Reid to a number one. Yeah, I just, the thing with Belichick that gets me, and I get that, like, Brady left and blah, you know what, I don't care. Like, I get they didn't make the playoffs last year. Like, 13 conference championships. It's hard to put that in.

Like, he's made nine Super Bowls. Bill Parcells, who was like Bill Belichick's mentor, made three Super Bowls. Like, the numbers we're talking about are the only team that can even compete in terms of longevity with these Patriots is Tom Landry's Cowboys. And they didn't have nearly the record of success.

This is in an era of football where everything's supposed to be harder for coaches to have longevity in a sport that is designed in the way players move in the draft. Every part of football is designed for parity. And the fact that the Patriots won the AFC East when Brady was healthy 17 times. I mean, I just can't move him down until they just really have a streak of not making the playoffs. I'm with you. He's the best, Belichick's best coach of all time. And it would be almost impossible for Andy Reid to supplant him in that. but I also feel like there are amazing coaches

who you wouldn't take going forward over you know, just when when Jimmy Johnson was with the dolphins, you would necessarily say, okay, he's still the best coach of the NFL as he was with the Cowboys, et cetera. As guys' careers evolve,

things tend to change. And so he's old and he might be washed, but I also say, no, he's not what I'm saying. That's not what I'm saying. He's in my number two. He's my number two. But I'd rather I'd rather have Bill Belichick than Kyle Shanhanhan.

all that, right? The only person I would take, kind of if we're going by the, take both sidelines or take a neutral roster, whatever it is, I would take Andy Reid over the next three years, let's say, then Bill Belichick. But that doesn't mean that Bill Belichick's not the best coach for all time. And that also means that for me, Bill, but I'd rather have Bill Belichick than 30 other coaches. Warren, how did you decide Andy over Bill Belichick? Yeah, it's not that different from you. I think Andy working with quarterbacks and getting so much much out of the quarterbacks that he has worked with, you know, raising the level of play, no matter where he is with whatever quarterback that he has at his disposal, it's a very

different case from Bill Belichick, who's just worked with Tom Brady in terms of having success. So I'm not suggesting that Bill Belichick isn't a great coach, legendary coach. I just think Andy Reid, for my money, 2021 and beyond, I would rather have Andy Reid. but I mean, God, 31 other teams would be so happy to have Bill Belichick. So it's, you're almost flipping a coin, but it leads a little bit to Andy. And again, I mean, I actually have John Harbaugh ahead of Bill Belichick. And that might seem like slander. But for, I just like the forward thinking a little bit more of John Harbaugh.

That's not to say he's not more legendary than Bill Belichick. We haven't seen, first of all, in defense, you have seen forward-thinking from Belichick, but also I would say the fact that he had Tom Brady for two decades tends to eliminate some of the forward-thinking that would be necessary. He didn't have to build a new offense. And he did, though. I mean, there were parts of all of that Tom Brady offense that he would reinvent every four or five years with Josh McDaniels.

All of that stuff was in concert, whether that's incorporating more spread, that 2007 Patriots were the first team to go more shotgun than under center. there were innovations he had, but they were smaller than building a new offense around Lamar Jackson or anything like that. So I think that it was a nice problem to have that we haven't had to give Belichick as much credit for innovating because he had Tom Brady and all of those changes were to accentuate one guy, whereas John Harbaughal has just had to do with a couple different quarterbacks. The other thing Kevin said real quick is who's team, who do you not want to see on the other? their sideline, it's Belichick. No doubt. Because your communication device to stop working?

You know what? If you're not cheating, you're not trying, Kevin. I want to see what happens if Ernie Adams actually isn't there for like a few years, like, and how much is learned on. But with regard to the Ravens, like, look, one of the things I'm looking at here, too, is like fourth down go rate, aggressiveness on fourth down. And Bill Belichick has definitely fallen off the last couple of years. He's not quite the same as what he was.

And the Ravens are number one in the NFL in their fourth down aggression. And their understanding of the importance of that towards winning games, their understanding of the importance of jumping out on opponents and capitalizing. They're number two. The Patriots were definitely much worse than that. So yeah, at the top, it's fun because there's no real strong opinions, debates. Like, oh, well, this guy was two versus one or that sort of thing. I think we're playing in a fortunate time where we've got this upper echelon of really great coaches that are still with us and this kind of newer school level of coaches that maybe haven't fully established themselves.

We don't know where they're going to go, but we really like them. And it is really hard to rank that kind of like five to six all the way down to like 12 range for me is very difficult. But I enjoyed this exercise. I thought it was a ton of fun. And obviously some differing opinions. it's is fun to chat about him. Two questions, neither of you prepared for

because I just made them up. Number one, who is your worst coach? I mean, can I still say Ben McAdoo or no? You cannot say Ben McAdoo. Zach Taylor's gone six and 25. I don't,

I don't want to pick on him because I've made some jokes at his, has his expense already. For me, for me, it's Collie. I've got,

I've got Z. Oh, yeah. Cully, like, because we don't know. We don't know anything about this guy. So, like, de facto number 32.

In terms of returning coaches that I have low. I do have Zach Taylor very low. And I also have Joe Judge very low. And part of the Joe Judge thing, part of the Joe judge thing is why are you hiring Jason Garrett as your offense coordinator? What in the world are you thinking with that move? But well, I wonder how much of the organization of the Giants was enamored with Jason Garrett, which is a different conversation. I think you're probably right, but David Cully, poor David Culley is the worst coach. I'm just curious, Warren with the fourth down thing, like when you say the Ravens are high on fourth down and the Patriots are low. Isn't it, doesn't that make sense,

though, because it's like the fourth down, like, aren't these numbers ultimately supposed to be a tool at the head coach's disposal? And Harbaugh is sitting there saying, well, I have Lamar Jackson. So this is ultimately going to favor offense. And if Belichick sitting there like, our offense kind of sucks, I don't trust. Isn't the coach that we're supposed to take that number and tweak it to the reality on the field? The numbers that we're looking at here are not just pure like how often are you going for it on fourth down, but it is when the situation would help you win a game and improves your win percentage enough that you should be going for this fourth down and you choose not to. And by the way, the Patriots are not below average.

They've been right around average. Belichick used to be one of the most aggressive guys at fourth downs. And over the last few years, he has changed and has not been quite as aggressive as he's been in the past. It's not, oh, just go for it on fourth down in general. It's like the specific times that you should be going for it. He's not doing it as much as he once did. And the Ravens are doing it quite frequently. You are correct that because of their short yardage style of offense, they probably have a better likelihood of converting those plays. So maybe that gives them a little bit more confidence. But it's also something that I believe is clearly a core tenant of the Ravens,

desire to win games through this aggression and that even if Lamar Jackson was not their quarterback, I believe they would still keep that philosophy. That makes sense. All right. Last question, guys. Is there a coach that we have not discussed at all that will be on this list next year, Warren Sharp? I don't see it.

I mean, I don't see it. Okay. I was thinking the three guys that stood out to me of the new coaches, Brandon Staley, Arthur Smith. And I do think there's a case. I do think there's a case. I'm not saying it's a good one, a big one. But I think that Urban Meyer has a chance to surprise everybody with his schemes.

And then I would also say that was the other one. I was going to say, if it's not David Cully, if you're talking about what's the ceiling of this coach? I'm saying Urban Myers. No, I'm just one of the most successful college coaches in history. There's a case we made that, yeah, he's got some good plays. I would bet more on Arthur Smith. But I also say that all three of those guys aren't going to win enough to be

top 10. I'm just saying in that discussion. I think if the Jets grab a wild card, it's Robert Sala for like the guy who could be on this list next year. Yes. I mean, if the Jets grab a wild card, I think that it's going to be a candidate, canon of heroes parade. Kevin, you brought up a good name in terms of Brandon Staley. He is by far the highest like new guy that I have ranked on here based on what I have seen

and what I have heard from him in the past. And my belief that he's still going to, even though he's on the defensive side of the ball, allow his offense to be a little bit more free, being that he has a former quarterback and understands that position a little bit. So, I mean, I think that he has the potential to be there and discussed like the defensive-minded guys we've talked about, who at least for me on my list was, you know, Brian Flores

and or Sean McDermott, like these defensive-minded guys who let their offenses be a little bit more creative. So I'm excited to see it. I will say there's like just a really good question. prop of head coaches in this top 12, 13, that it is going to be a little bit difficult to crack it. But I'm looking forward to seeing what he can do with that team. I would also, and we keep doing this on these lists, just enter Titans Corner in minute 75. Because we didn't mention Mike Braeble at all after two straight playoff births,

including an Etsy title run in 2019. And if he continues to win, he's definitely in this conversation next year. All right, guys, anything else? Please go grab my preview if you can. sharp football analysis.com. I'm going to go ahead and plug it. Sharp Football Analysis.com. And Ringer Fantasy Football Show, we are launching a draft guide this week.

So go to Fantasyf Football.orgor.com this week. I love it. This week, it's going to go live late it's week. Fantasyfutball. Dot the ringer.com. Check it out. Thank you to Warren and Danny for stopping by. Up next on this feed is Flying Coach with some excellent guests.

Thank you to Isaiah Blakely for the production help and additional production by Arjuna Ramcapul. This has been the Ringer NFL show on The Ringer Podcast. Gas Network.