The Ringer NFL Show - Training Camp With the Chiefs, Rams, and Vikings. Plus: Wunderkind Week. | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: August 9, 2019

Checking on the Chiefs, Rams, and Vikings training camps, including the differences between building a team around Patrick Mahomes and Jared Goff (3:00). Then, what to make of an NFL that’s never been younger (26:35). Hosts: Robert Mays, Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Drinking responsibly is too. To the Ringar NFL show, I'm Robert Mays. Join as always by Kevin Clark. Kevin, how you doing, buddy? We are getting into increasingly bizarre places as our recording sites. You are in a state park in Los Angeles. I am at a hotel in suburban Des Moines. Yeah, this is amazing.

I was driving down the five on my way to L.A., and I had to pull over because this was our recording time. And this seemed like the best option. So I'm here. I'm parked in front of a sign about the dangers of Poison Oak. So, you know, the shot... You got to watch out. Poison Oak season.

The shiny leaves of the shrub grow in groups of three on smooth, stems. So if you're hiking, that's what you should be looking out for, apparently. I also, El Tejohn in Spanish means the badger, which I have no idea why the state park is named after a badger. The only reason I know that is because on 30 Rock, they call Liz El Tejone because she makes the badger face. So the more you know. Can we talk about another badger that is the focal point of a story I wrote today? We certainly can. Let's get into some badger talk. That would be the honey badger. we're going to keep going with our training camp tidbits and then we are going to talk a little bit about our first theme week of the preseason, which is Wunderkin week. But why don't we start with one of your tidbits from Kansas City and what you talked about with Tyron Matthew?

Well, so first of all, this is this is our, my Wundercan week kickoff is doing a story on Patrick Mahomes and the plan to build around him. So yesterday I took in Chief's practice. They look pretty good. It was actually. kind of a funny thing because I was talking to some of the beat writers. And this is isolated to this practice. I don't want anyone to think that this is a month-long thing, but they were saying the defense looked a little better than the offense on that particular day. That has not happened all the time. There's a couple of things I want to unpack here. Number one is that would be like we talked about with the Packers the other day, a very nice problem to have. I don't think that's the case that the defense is better than the offense. But on the other hand, as was pointed out to me

when I was there. Last year, the defense kept picking off Patrick Mahomes's passes and that A, did not matter for Mahomes, and B, did not suggest anything

about the defense one September rolled around. So that was the practice I saw. Mahomes also did his normal Mahomes stuff, which means behind the back pass, that kind of thing. He suggested,

he was asked about this. He suggested that it's possible, he says he doesn't want to do it in the game, but I've talked to him about this. I've talked to him about this. Chad Henney about this. I talked to a lot of those things we don't think were ever going to happen from Mahomes started in practice as jokes

and worked their way into the real thing because they were practiced so much. So he said they have to be up big, have to be late in the game. I don't know. I could see it behind the back pass from Mahomes at some point. Now, talk to Brett Veach for a long time after the practice. And that is what we're going to get into here because we had a long discussion about the ability.

to build around Patrick Mahomes. And when I thought it was interesting, Robert, when they signed Sammy Watkins last year, at the time Patrick Mahomes was not a starter. He had started one meaningless game. And he had, you know, shown potential. But again, we didn't know how great he was going to be. Guess who knew they were going to be great,

the Ken City Chiefs. And they baked in starting before he was even a starter as a rookie, as a backup. They structured every contract knowing he was going to make a ton of money. this is not necessarily unique. Carson Wentz, you know, the Eagles kind of said that they knew beforehand, they got to plan for it. However, what I'll say is that this is what you have to do. If you think you're going to be able to hit on a quarterback,

you have to go all in and start planning right now. That means maximizing the four years or he'll be cheap or the five years, if you want to write out the fifth year option, and build a team around him not only for those cheap years, but then not destroy the franchise once he becomes expensive, once he starts making 32, 33, 34, or more million dollars a year. And so I think I was hugely impressed with the plan Vich laid out. And if I'm a chief's fan, I'm feeling pretty good today.

A similar thing, it all makes sense. And a similar thing struck me at Rams camp yesterday. I was at Rams Raiders dual practices in Napa. And I was talking with someone in the Rams front office about something very similar, just about the timeline you have to lay out. We were talking about teams retaining their quarterbacks and whether you'd throw one back and see if you could start over a discussion we've had many times on this podcast. And he was talking to me about you kind of have to make your decision on your quarterback after the third season. If you wait any longer, you're kind of paying for that information.

You know, we're seeing that with the bucks and the Titans right now. You know, the notion that they're paying these guys $20 million bucks and do you really want to? But because they weren't sure, they have to. And you don't want to be in that no man's land. So I just think for the most part, smart teams are thinking a lot further ahead than we see, then we would give them credit for. And I put the Rams in that same boat. You know, they've already really taken into account the fact that Jared Goff's

50-year option is 22 million and if they recite him, which they're going to, it's going to it's going to go to 30 million. They've already planned that in. That $8 million is baked into the way they've structured their roster. And if you look at guys like Clay Matthews and Eric Weddow, who they signed this season, that eight or so million that's going to jump for golf, that is pretty much exactly what those two players will cost next season. And there's almost no dead money left on either of their deals.

Clay Matthews is a $2 million roster bonus. There's a good chance neither of those guys is on the roster next year. So that $8 million that Jared Golf's contract is going to jump up, that is accounted for by cutting both of those players. So I just think that, again, smart teams are very good at grasping. This is the three-year plan. This is the four-year plan. This is the practical applications of the money.

Because I think too often we don't think about assets as actual players. And like, okay, so that $8 million, what is it practically? But smart teams, that's exactly how they consider it. So I think the biggest difference between the Chiefs and the Rams is that the Chiefs have the reigning MVP and probably the best. player in football right now or one best quarterback in football and Jared Goff is I'm not going to say it's a risk to retain golf because that's we've seen him be productive what I'll say is is that I'd much rather have Mahomes at a huge number and him figure it out with the offense then maybe strip down the offense and have Goff try to do it with less help around him golf with help around him is a very

valuable quarterback I it remains to be seen what it looks like when and it's golf without being able to go on an offense. I know you mentioned Clay Matthew and some of those defensive guys. Obviously, they're able to spend money on guys like Aaron Donald or even, you know, Marcus Peters, and there remains to be seeing how much they'll pay him going forward. But I'd much rather, this is a very simple point, but I'd much rather be paying Patrick Mahomes a ton of money than Jared Goff.

Of course, but at the same time, what are you going to do? Are you just going to let Goff go? They're not going to do that. No, I understand. I understand that. I'm saying I would think a lot, harder in a team building perspective, I'd think a lot harder about the money I would give to golf or even if you're, you know, I mean, I'd kind of play hardball with golf a little bit. They're not going to. I mean, I know, I don't, I don't run the Rams. I think one of the interesting points that came up in the conversation was that we can have this thought experiment about what Jared Goff is without Sean McFay. But it's really just a

thought experiment. They're not going to have to find out. As long as Jared Goff is the quarterback there. Sean McVeigh is going to be the head coach there. So we can project what that offense would look like with someone else, but they don't have to. Jared Goff with Sean McVey is what Jared Goff is. Yeah, I mean, I guess. I just, I think that if, if, here's my question, how many, and we, I've asked you this before, but I want to, you know, you were around them a couple days ago, how many guys in the league, how many quarterbacks could have Jared Goff's numbers or better in, in that offense? I would say maybe 10, but I also think the Rams don't think that number is as big as you do.

The Rams would rather have Jared Goff than Kirk Cousins. Okay. Like definitively. I don't. I think that's, I think that's very close. And I don't necessarily disagree with you, but that's not how they see it. So I don't know. It was a fascinating conversation.

I think that, you know, I had a, I had a talk a couple. last year actually with someone. We talked a little about this, about how teams, the word is not overrate, so I'm not going to use that. Teams get really hyped up on their guy because A,

he's in the building and he's familiar with these guys. And B, the alternative of not being hyped on a quarterback is awful, right? Like, that's really, really bad.

It seems into every other aspect of your organization. When you aren't excited about your quarterback, everything sucks in your building. Yep. And so I understand why, you know, man, when I was in New York last week and I saw how Eli Manning operates in that building, you kind of get it. Like, he's so nice to everybody and he knows everybody's name and he's doing all these things to organization. He's giving people time. And you're like, well, man, like, I kind of wanted to sign him to an extension. I'm just looking at

him just seems like a great guy. Like, and what I'm saying is, is that there's an attachment to the quarterback position that at some point makes teams act irrationally. And I'm not saying that's happening with the Rams. I'm not saying that's happening with the Rams because Jared Goff has produced. I'm just saying that when you're outside the building, it's a lot easier to say cut this guy, get rid of this guy, trade this guy for a ham sandwich. When you're inside the building, it's it's a more emotional decision. And you can sort of see that when you're in the building and you can see why organizations talk themselves into some people. I'm working on something about this.

I think it's one of the more interesting aspects of the entire league. And that's what we're going to see. As the analytics kind of community has become more prevalent in the football world, I think that there's been a movement toward being more cold and calculated with this whole thing. But the aspects of how it will affect your locker room and your organization are huge. If everybody in the locker, and I'm not saying the players should make personnel decisions, but if everyone in the locker room looks at a $30 million contract for Jared golf and says,

that makes sense. that matters. Because the way that the players feel like the money should be allocated affects how the players think. It affects how many types of players you'll be able to retain early in their contracts. It ends up coming back to you when it comes to team building value in the end, even if you're overpaying the quarterback a little bit. And I think that's an aspect that people outside of this don't really take into account or give enough creeds to. I think what's interesting is you know people like this. I know people like this.

play caller, assistant coaches, whatever, who secretly, if you get half a beer in them, say, you know what, so-and-so did this in the offense, but I could do this with the backup of the third string. You hear it not all the time, but there's at least a handful of play callers who say that the difference between their backup and their starter isn't as big as you think, right? I've heard that from a number of play callers. The problem is no team actually operates like that. They just sort of, it's kind of what you alluded to. It's a thought experiment. okay, how could I do this? If I didn't have this guy, I could do with my backup.

So I think that, I don't think teams will ever operate off that. I think it would take one team to even make the baby step. I mean, even make the baby step. I mean, I think, you know, I think if the bears got rid of Mitch Trubisky in three years, that would be considered a revolutionary move, even if he doesn't progress as a passer. Do you know what I'm saying? I'm with you. I think that one of the biggest things is, does your culture not want that person anymore?

Would you be better off if that wasn't your guy? And I think that's the argument in Tampa Bay. And I think that that's the argument in overall to a couple different places. I think that was one of the things in Jacksonville. I think the mutiny that's currently happening there, and it is a mutiny, started when they gave Blake Portals that extension. That is where this stuff begins. You have Jacksonville and mutiny? already? I think that

things are falling apart there to a certain degree, yes. Okay. I think that's a really bad place right now. No, I don't, I thought that I've said it had sort of combustible potential, but it's August 9th. Combusts? All right, I'll give it combustible potential. Is this like when you said the Bengal season

was over, during, before camp started? I think there is growing unrest in Jacksonville. That is what I will say. Oh, I mean, I, listen, I'm with you on some aspects of that. I mean, obviously there's a lot of contracts in the air. The way last season ended was wild, all that. But I'm ready to

believe it's, you know, Jalen Ramsey isn't, captaining a pirate ship right now. I think we're closer than, I think we're closer than you might believe. That's what I'll say. Okay. One more thing I want to say about the Rams. It kind of goes along the same lines of

the planning aspect. I was talking to their offensive line coach Aaron Cromer about just the new guys that they brought in. And He mentioned a really interesting point. And it's that so last season, you know, they knew for the most part that a couple of these guys were going to have to step in his starters when it came to the 2019 season. And they had a couple players that did not practice a couple days during the week for veteran days. Andrew Weyworth and John Sullivan, you know, they had some days off pretty much every single week. So guys like Joseph Knopoom and Brian Allen, who were rookies last year, got to practice with the ones twice a week last season.

So their transition has been a little bit smoother than it might be for somebody that wasn't used to these players around them just because they've gotten reps with those guys already for an entire year. And I think that offensive line system is something where comfort really matters because the commitment you have to have to play action and those movements is uncomfortable for a lot of linemen mentally. It's hard to commit to it because you're putting yourself in a disadvantageous situation as a pass blocker. So the fact that they've gotten to do it already for a year and this isn't super foreign to them, I think that's going to really help with their transition. I thought that was a fascinating point. It wasn't one that I had considered. Interesting. Interesting. So you want to build out the Wundercindercind point? Sure. Do you want to do any more training camp tidbits? I want to say one more thing about the Raiders. I went to the Vikings.

Yeah? Is that it? Yeah, that's it. No, no, no. I had a good time with the Vikings. Had a great time. you know what I actually talked with Rick Spielman a little bit about was the mental health aspect of it. And I thought that was interesting. They hired three people in the off season. There's an NFL sort of push to have mental health experts in the building for a certain number of hours a week. But they separate from this, hired three people. And we actually talked a little bit about how they are trying to build a program where mental health is treated as every other injury as you would an ankle or a knee.

And I thought that was really interesting. The football part of it, I'll write it up. up at some point. I mean, I just think that, you know, they're essentially running it back. And I think there's a lot of potential there. And the Anthony Barr retainment is something that because it's just a guy returning to his team, we don't realize is one of the biggest moves of the off season from a defensive standpoint. Um, you know, I think it just comes down to just little progress and health and just being better than they were last year. I still think they have roster talent. They essentially have the same roster and the same core.

that I picked to make the Super Bowl last year. I was wrong. I still feel like the truth is somewhere in the middle and there'll be a pretty good team. I think they're in a similar spot to a lot of these teams when you start having to pay everyone. And it's that you get worse on the margins.

And that's my concern about them is that for the most part, you're right. I mean, they have a very similar roster. I think that their offensive line is probably better when it comes to the talent based on drafting Gary Bradbury, signing Josh Klein. But when you look at the defense,

it's those little things. It's not having Sheldon Richardson and having Shamar Stefan in there instead. It's now having Anthony Harris be your starting safety. And if you get hurt there, there's no one really behind him that you feel great about. So those are the things that can come back to bite a team. I believe in them.

I think that they have a really good chance to be a double-digit win team this year that contends in the NFC. But I do think the one difference is that those little tiny incremental changes on for your, you know, the 22nd start. the 23rd guy that's the first guy off the bench,

that's where they're worse. And you just have to hope that they don't get hurt because unlike a team like Philadelphia who has a ton of depth, this team does not. And a ding here, a ding there can really come back to get them. I mean,

they did not expect to bring Anthony Barr back this season. Not at all. He was not in their financial plans. Well, no, I mean, he was with the Jets. He committed to the Jets. And then he was like,

yeah. But this is also, like we were talking about this three-year outlook, where you have this plan of how the money is going to go, everything else. Teams rarely get snuck up on when you're as smart as managing the cap as the Vikings are. And this bar thing snuck up on them. I mean, it required them to give him a deal that's not structured similar to the way they normally do their deals.

It required them to push Eric Kendrick's base salary down and give him a signing bonus, which they never do. I mean, this team is really trying to make the most of this season because they already thought it was over. They thought that group that they had was already gone with Barr leaving. Now they know it's over next year. So their timetable to me is fascinating. But I mean, listen, there's all the potential in the world from to hit on some of these draft picks and be right where they need to be. Whether that's of Bradbury, whether that's Irv Smith Jr., who they're going to pair with Rudolph. I mean, I think that there's, you know, listen, we talk a lot about Philadelphia.

And I think Philadelphia is probably going to make the Super Bowl. but, you know, that's, we, I probably overrate them because they sign a lot of guys I know or they, they, they see a lot of, they have signing guys like Malik Jackson, who we've seen ball out in two places now on an affordable contract for $10 million a year. but one of the things that we do a really bad job of projecting. I'm just talking about myself, and I'm talking about in the media in general, is which guys we don't know about are going to give the exact same production as Malik Jackson for $400,000 hours a year.

And that's the hardest thing this time of year. So here's the difference to me. The Eagles are in a spot that the Vikings used to be where they don't have to rely on those rookies. You know, the Vikings were in a spot a couple seasons ago where you're not even starting your first round pick. They were in that spot last season. And Neil Hunter wasn't even a starter at the beginning of his career.

Now the Vikings are in a spot that's more similar to the Saints where you need to hit on those guys right now in order to be the best roster you can be. And I think that change matters. It can work if you hit on the guys like the Saints do. We've seen it. But it's a little bit more difficult and the degree of difficulty is higher than it is for a team like Philadelphia. I think that's the transition. I'm not saying that they're any different than some of the best teams in the NFL.

but they're different than they were a couple years ago. That's, to me, that's, that's the change. What's your, what's your Raiders tidbit? I just think that when you look at just how much turnover that team is experienced, it is jarring. I mean, it's really jarring to just see all the new bodies there. And that's kind of why the gave in, that gave Jackson injury that happened yesterday is such a bummer if he misses time,

because you're looking at that offensive line and you're like, you can make something happen with this group of Colt Miller's even a little bit better. I mean, Richie Incognito, for all you think of the signing, has been good the last couple times he's played. You still have Rodney Hudson. Even if Trent Brown's an overpay, he's a massive upgrade over what you had there last year. So I just think that, you know, not even mentioned Antonio, Brown, Tyro Williams, everything else, you know, that team just has so much more talent than it had a year ago.

And if you have any sort of faith in Derek Carr in that offense, there's a chance that they could surprise some people. So, you know, we'll see. We'll see how we heard Jake, Gabe Jackson is, everything else. But, you know, I understand having a plan and having an identity and all this stuff and why it matters. And I don't necessarily agree with a lot of the ways they spent their money. But I do think it kind of jumps out to you where, wow, you know, this is a very made over roster. Let's see what they can do with it.

Hey, can I run a conspiracy theory past year. I heard the other day from someone who sort of knows John Gruden. You certainly can. That the Nathan, well, I love Nathan Peterman thing or whatever it was. Yeah. was to distract and get Antonio Brown out of the headlines. John Gruden's just like a genius. Well, no, he was just like, man.

That's like some Trumpian behavior. That's incredible. He was just like, man. Someone ran this past me the other day. And I'm thinking about it a lot. They're just like, he saw the Antonio Brown injury coming. He knew it was going to be kind of a wacky story. And people were going to talk about it.

So just drop a, just a harmless bomb. Get Nathan Peterman pumped up. Maybe, you know, motivate Derek. car a little bit. I think if that's, if it's true, and I have no evidence, I've not spoken to John Gruden about this particular comment. So I, I'm just saying he's playing, he's playing some 4D chess here. One more Rams tidbit before we move on to our Wunderkin conversation. I was watching their offense for a good chunk of two days I was there just because I'm very interested in their offense all the time. But they used a lot more 12 and 13 personnel during the

sessions I saw, then you would think from that team. And they did some interesting stuff out of it. So I would be surprised if we saw nearly the amount of three receiver sets that we saw last season. So you can take that into account from a lot of different perspectives, whether it's them kind of overcoming their Super Bowl failings. And I talked to McVeigh a little bit about that yesterday. And I think he had some interesting things to say. I'm writing about it for next week. But also from a fantasy perspective, if you're looking at those three Rams receivers and there's somebody that you think is right there with them, I would let the knowledge that you were not going to see those guys in the field as much together kind of be a tiebreaker for going in a different

direction. Okay. That sounds good. Before we move on, let's take a quick break. With two-thirds of guys experiencing noticeable hair loss by age 35, most guys assume losing their hair is inevitable as they age. Some don't care. Some shave their head. Some embrace hats. Lord knows I do. But what they don't know is that they are FDA-approved medications designed to stop hair loss and even regrow hair. That's why we're excited to partner with our sponsor, Roman. Roman makes it easy to get safe FDA-approved hair loss treatment, all from your phone or computer. And when you go to getroman.com slash ringer NFL, your online visit is free. Consult with a U.S. licensed physician through their secure online platform. No awkward conversations with receptionists are reading bad

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Let's get into our Wundricken conversation. That is the theme week at the ringer.com next to you. week. We like doing these because it's a fun way to kind of package ideas for the preseason. And I think you can go a lot of different directions with the Wundrickens side of it. You know, you're kind of seeing it from a more player-driven perspective. We've talked so much about how young the league has gotten. So when you're thinking about this concept as it relates to overall roster construction and the youth of the NFL, what are you thinking about?

Well, I think there's a couple things. Number one, the league football outsiders has a thing called snap weighted and just age. and what that essentially says is the league has never been younger. The amount of players not only on rosters but on the field is alarmingly young. The average age is about 26 years old. Now what's interesting about age 26? Well, it's the fourth year of a rookie deal if you come in at 22.

And that's not an accident. Guys, teams really, really like cheap players. What I think is happening now, number one, the Patriots and the Rams were dead last and rookie snaps played last year. That's something really important to note. And even though, you know, the football outsider's analysis basically says half of the playoff teams were young, half of them were old, et cetera. Only really the Legion of Boom Seahawks who had a handful of Hall of Famers draft in the middle rounds won the Super Bowl while being an aggressively young team. I'm going to write this next week.

I'll have sort of more, this will be more thought out in print and have some have some comments from some folks. But what I think is interesting now. Is this the conversation you had with the bills a little bit too, just about that? Yeah. No, I mentioned my conversation. with Brandon Bean and McDermott about this. But there's obviously other teams like that

who are relying on veterans a little bit. I actually, I want to save most of that stuff for the column, but what I will say... No, no, no, no, no, no, no. But I wanted to get in something else. I wanted to get in something else, which was that the CPA in year nine,

it's kind of funny because it's expiring next year, has sort of worked now, is working now for non-quarterbacks. in a way that it did not for the first six, seven, eight years. Now, again, the vast majority of the CBA has not worked for players. The rookie wage scale has really changed everything. But I think that now you're seeing one thing that wasn't happening three years ago,

four years ago, certainly. It was actually happening a little earlier in the CBA. But there was a little period where if you were a non-quarterback who deserved big money, you just weren't getting it. And I think that changed a little bit with Colomac. I think that certainly changed with Bobby Wagner. I mean, there's a lot of these guys who are getting the money they deserve now. And I think you're sort of seeing a rebirth for non-quarterback veterans just over the

past year or so. What happens in the next CBA? I got no idea as far as that goes. But I do know that I do know the structure will probably change a little bit. And it'll be interesting to see if that resets because I think right now it's a good time to be a non-quarterback free agent because there's a. ton of money to be spent. Look at Frank Clark.

Yeah. Speaking of the Chiefs. I had a conversation with somebody who handles money for an NFL team recently, and we were talking about just the idea that even if it'll never get to this degree, the kind of the player power movement that's happening in the NBA is influence the NFL. It's not going to happen. To some degree. But it's to some degree.

I think to some degree players are trying, there just aren't as many guys in the NFL that have that sort of sway, they never will. But a guy like Aaron Donald does. No, I disagree. I think the franchise tag kills everything. I don't think that's true. I really don't think that's true. I think it doesn't kill everything.

To some degree, these guys can say, fuck you, I'm not coming. To some degree, they can. And the list of players that can is so small outside of quarterbacks, but some of these guys can influence some, they have some power. it's a very small list

but some guys do here's the problem the problem is the franchise tag in a very narrow way works I remember talking to someone from the player's side when Kirk Cousins kept being tagged by the Redskins and they were like look

it's the franchise tag perfect no in many cases it sucks but Kirk Cousins is making $23 million a year okay if if the Raiders had played the Mac thing differently and actually wanted to pay him that was just a matter of just not wanting to pay him really anything apparently.

But they could have just kept, they could have tagged him twice if they wanted to and let him, let him play out everything and they could have had control of him for a while. So Aaron Donald, if he wanted to sit out, that's fine, but he's,

you know, giving up, I don't even know what the tag for an interior line would be, would have about 15 or 16? About 15 or 16, but he's making 21. And then it would rise.

No, but then it would rise the second year. Aaron Donald got paid. Everything worked out with that. What I'm saying is, NFL teams, it's not just about using the franchise tag as a literal device to keep players. The biggest function of the franchise tag in all 32 buildings is the threat of using it that accelerates contract negotiations. Of course that's true.

No, but what I think is I think you're, I think that you're really not. Can you give me an example of a player like? You know, give me an example of a player who could force their way to a very specific team like Anthony Davis did. I don't think that's going to be the case. I think players are going to get paid. I just don't think that's possible. I don't think it's about forcing yourself to a different team. I think it's about forcing yourself to get the contract that you feel like you deserve.

Right. Which most players can generally get. I don't think that's necessarily true. I think it takes a certain type of player now. Oh, right. No, of course. non-quarterbacks. I'm talking about stars.

I'm talking about stars. Yes. I don't think you can force yourself to a different team like you can in the NBA, but I think you can get the contract because it's the same conversation we're having before

about the effect it has on your locker room. If the Rams players are sitting there and saying, what the hell are you doing? Why are you not paying this guy? We need him in the building. That is the type of thing I think matters.

And that's why I think that if people like Aaron Donald, I think Bobby Wagner would have been in this position. If the Seahawks season was starting and Bobby Wagner was not there, every single guy in that locker room would look around with their hands raised being like, what is going on? And I think that's why it matters. I think that's how these players can wield their power.

Because if you're going to tag Bobby Wagner twice, I think you're going to have a really pissed off group of players in your building. Sure. I understand that. But what I'm saying is that it's not the player empowerment thing about the in the NBA is not only getting the contract that a player deserves, it's also about getting to a place, a market they want to play. That will never happen. The, you're right, the layer of control that players have in the NBA will never, will never be replicated in the NFL because of that. So yes, you can get one half

of that, which you can get the money. Yes. But you might have to go to a team that either has the money or the team that you want, that you are currently on. I don't think that you're not, you're not have the best of both worlds like the NBA that's a completely different league. I'm with you and I think the one thing that I would the one kind of tweak about this is that players were always getting the money in the NFL when they were hitting

free agency but they weren't necessarily getting the money when they were negotiating with their own teams and I think that is kind of a transition that's also happened. I think you can make something even if it's not all the way I think now superstars can make something closer to their actual market value

with their own franchise like Aaron Donald did like Bobby Wagner probably did just because again the threat of that and the threat of I'm not coming. I do think that has more weight than it used to because I do think that threat is a little bit more real. Yeah. I mean, you will still take a discount if you sign with your own team before for agency. I just playing playing through free agency is so unbelievably hard for a player like Bobby Wagner. That's again, that's the unfairness of the franchise tag. Bobby Wagner and Aaron Donald won't hit the open market for at least two or possibly three years, whereas CJ Mosley does.

I think the gap is smaller than it would have been three years ago. I think there's still a gap between what you'd make on the open market, what you'd make from your franchise if you're a superstar. But I do think the gap is closing just because, again, I think the players do have a tiny bit more power. That's what I'll say. Okay. So my side of the vunerkin conversation is that, you know, I'm writing about this.

We've talked about this a bunch. I feel comfortable saying it now because it's kind of on the horizon. You know, 15 offensive play callers this season. It's 15, not 16. Kevin O'Connell in Washington is also a first-year offensive coordinator, but he's not calling plays. So we'll have 15 guys this year. They're going to be the offensive play callers for their teams that weren't last season. And I said that to Sean McVeigh yesterday.

And his response was, no shit. That was literally what he said to me when I told him that. And that's been the response I've gotten from a lot of people. Every single person I've said that to is either said, wow, or seriously, or everyone is shocked. And I don't think they necessarily should be because we have reached the post-Shon-McVey world of the NFL when it comes to what teams are looking for. And we were kind of getting there a little bit last year when you think about Matt Nagy and, you know, Frank Reich isn't a 38-year-old guy, but he, he's a coach in the same mold.

And it's really interesting because I think that I understand that model. I think that there's a lot of credence to that model. Matt Nagy said that he really believes it's the best one if your quarterback and your head coach have a consistent constant relationship and connection. If you're always nurturing that, then that probably is the best way to go about it. But I feel like, you know, again, something we've discussed, a lot of these things are going to fail because the coaches that are put in these positions don't understand why guys like Sean McVeigh, Andy Reid, Matt Nagy, Frank Reich are successful.

It's way beyond what kind of cool shit can I draw? It goes into personality management. Like John Dorsey told you to tell me that you need a guy that's a CEO. You need a guy that is somebody that can really kind of control your locker room and understand what players need. That element of a head coach is important even if you're an offensive genius. And that's going to be the challenge to guys like Cliff Kingsbury, to guys like Zach Taylor. You know, we know they know offense. They got to these jobs because they know offense.

But can they manage an NFL locker room? And so I'm going to do a series of stories here over the next week to 10 days, analyzing this movement and also a handful, a half dozen of individual cases associated with this movement. Because I feel like it's, if not the biggest story, one of the biggest stories about the NFL in this season. Are you okay with me talking about the Dorsey thing real quick? Yeah, of course. Okay, okay. So just so everyone understands what Maze is talking about.

So I talked to John Dorsey, and one of the things I asked him was a question for Maze's package. and I asked him, I said, hey, listen, you know, how much did Freddie Kitchens maximizing the quarterback impact his hiring? And is that, you know, the best way to do it? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, pretty standard stuff. And he pushed back on the idea that this was a scheme decision. And I thought that was- Which I love. He basically said, listen, Mike Tomlin, Pete Carroll, Bill Belichick, pretty good coaches, all defensive coaches. and what

Dorsey basically said was that Freddie applied constant what was the phrase he used constant constant constant fair firmness is what he said constant fair firmness

that earned their guys trust and I thought that was a really good way to put it. My entire conversation with Dorsey will be published on the ringer two weeks, something like that so you can look out for it there but that was the gist of it.

And I thought that was a really interesting point because it's so easy to say, a, you know, potitudes about how good the offense was, or just like, you know, just say he's a leader of men and leave it at that. But you can tell and Robert reading those comments when I sent them to you, you can probably figure out he was so specific that he'd obviously been thinking about this for a long time and how Freddie can lead this team outside of the scheme. Absolutely. And I think that that's where a lot of these guys are going to succeed or fail. And Freddie said the same thing to me when I was in Cleveland. You know, he pretty much said it. The conversation he had with John Jorsi and Jimmy Haslam, there wasn't a lot of Baker stuff involved in it. And I feel like that's really...

Well, I mean, by the way, they got to see what it looked like. So I, if they had scored three points a game, it's a different conversation. Yep, it absolutely is. So I, but I just think that that's, that really stuck out to me. And mentioning Belichick, and I'm writing about this for Monday a little bit in the bigger piece that I'm doing. I don't mind saying it. Mentioning Belichick is a really telling kind of comparison. Because the other trend we've seen about head coach hirings in the NFL over the last decade or so is trying to find your own mini Belichick. And all of those guys have failed.

To a man, all of them have failed. And the reason I think that most of them have failed, and we've talked about this on the show before, is that they do not take the correct lessons from why Bill Belichick was successful. Right. And I think that is the challenge. of this group that is made in the McVeigh mold, even if they're not all necessarily associated with him,

is that it's not about how good of an offensive schemer you are. It's every other aspect that goes into this job. And it's, to me, nurturing the quarterback is number one, but there are a ton of other aspects of it. It's making sure you have the right defensive coordinator. Matt Nagy did that with Vic Fangio. What Matt LeFleur did is very similar with what he's doing with Mike Pet. It's about going out and finding the right.

guy to hold that side of the team down, like Zach Taylor told you to tell me, that you need somebody on that side. Did you do any of your own work for this story? I did none of my own work for this story. Again, just behind the curtain, we don't go to all the same places. And if we do go to the same places, we don't like to ask for the same people because it's not very professionally courteous. So he told me that.

And it's really, you spent so much time on the offensive side of the ball when you're the play caller that having someone you can trust over there is important. having an offensive coordinator you can trust to give you the correct information as you tailor your game plan is important. You may think that guy is a wasted part of the staff, but I guarantee if you ask Doug Peterson how crucial Frank Reich was to what they did on offense in 2017, he would tell you because he was crucial. And Frank Reich said the same thing to me about Nick Siriani and what he does for them in Indianapolis. So we can talk all we want about what these guys are going to do schematically.

But I think that the more secondary, ancillary aspects of being a head coach, even if you're the play caller, are ultimately going to determine what happens with this crop. I bought a salad right over this podcast started, and I've been trying to figure out how to eat it without everybody hearing it. And I just don't think it's impossible.

I don't think it's going to be possible. What kind of salad? What kind of lettuce? I mean, like, if it's a roogula, it's a little less crunchy. Yeah, it's, it's, uh, I just think it's, it's a Caesar, so, oh, yeah,

Romaine. Yeah, that's some romaine. You're screwed there. Yeah, you'd be, it's a tough one. What's your,

what's your salad go to? What's your salad base that you like? A mixture, whether it's Caesar or Cobb depending on how I'm feeling and where I am. Oh, see, I'm much more of like an oil,

vinegar, spring mixed guy. Listen, man, it is really easy to have a bad Cobb salad. And so you have to be in a place where it's like,

okay, I'm going to get a good a cob salad here. Caesar, I think if you're just in a replacement level eatery, Caesar is where you're going to go. Yeah, I don't go with cream-based dressings for the most part. I like my salads to feel a little bit fresher than that.

I get what you're saying. I get what you're saying. I understand it's a good point. But I just also, by the way, with the cop, you know, your bacon, your avocado, all that stuff. So it's really easy to go bad. No bacon. I don't do bacon in a salad ever.

The only meat I ever put in salad is salmon or grilled chicken. I'm not a bacon. steak salad. I'll eat a steak salad. I'll eat like a yeah, sometimes I'll do that. I would much rather do ahie tuna, but I don't like bits of bacon in things. I never have.

That may seem like a weird take because I do love bacon on its own. You're missing out a lot. I probably am. I love eating bacon. And like bacon on a breakfast sandwich I would do, but bacon on burger almost never and never bacon in a salad.

Well, I don't know what to tell you, bud. I'm sorry. Anything else? I think that's, it. So you got everything you guys needed, I hope. Training camp tidbits, salad takes. Again,

please look out for all of our coverage of Wunderkin Week on the ringer.com next week. That will be starting up on Monday. And I will be rolling those stories out over the next little bit. Again, I've been working on it for a while. This is the first time I feel super comfortable telling people what it is. But it's definitely my

biggest project of the offseason and of training camp. And I'm really excited for you guys to see it. And I'm really excited for all of you to see everything we got coming over the next a week. The biggest project of my offseason is me just housing the salad, which is about to happen in about two minutes. All right, guys, please enjoy your weekend here. Please continue to read the ringer.com. And as always, thank you so much for listening to the ringer NFL show on the ringer podcast network. We'll talk to you later.