The Ringer NFL Show - Uncertainty in Oakland, Remembering the Wildcat, and Positive Vibes Under Center | The Ringer NFL Show (Ep. 277)

Episode Date: August 7, 2018

The Ringer's Robert Mays and Kevin Clark team up in Nashville to discuss the Vikings' state-of-the art facility (02:00), league-wide optimism regarding young quarterbacks (04:30), and Jon Gruden's impact on the Raiders (13:00). Then, they look back to 2008 and reminisce about the wildcat offense (21:30) and the value of the safety position (30:15) before evaluating the new-look Titans (35:30). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark. How you do, buddy? Hot. Yeah, it is hot today. So last year we did our in-person training camp podcast in your apartment. We were uncomfortably close in River North. And now we are at a live NFL training camp in

National Tennessee, a beautiful place where I will see about 12 hours of things before moving on to further, things further south in America. And I'm glad to be watching football today. Yeah, this was fun. I was excited to come here. I think this is a fascinating team. We'll get into some of the things we saw at this camp, some of the things we've seen at others. But the perils of the training camp tour are suitcases are only so large and I only have so many pieces of clothes and doing laundry in the road is not easy. So I am out of clean shorts because I have to do laundry at my next stop in Missouri. And that led to me wearing black jeans to a 95 degree practice in Nashville, Tennessee. I am sweating so much right now. It's kind of hard to communicate

how disheveled I look. You don't have to communicate it to me. I can see a loud and clear, buddy. I know you can see it. There's some definite forehead sweat going on, but we're going to battle through because that's the type of show this is. So Kevin, we've both been bouncing around. I came to Nashville from West Virginia where I saw the Texans practice. I was in Cleveland the day before that. You've been all over the place. We did this on our last show and we're going to keep going with it because this seems like the most useful podcast time at this point in the calendar. Let's talk about some of the takeaways we've had from the camps that we visited recently. Why don't you go first? What was your number one thing you noticed over the last week since we

So I know this is not this is not an on the field thing, but I want to talk about it because I saw Albert Breer a couple of days ago and he said, when you see this facility in Minnesota, you're going to be blown away. And I was kind of like, you know what? NFL facilities are by and large, extremely simple things. They are not like college. Everyone talks about these college, you know, the waterfalls or whatever. And only a handful of teams actually have those, you know, in the NFL. In college, it's Clemson, Alabama. That's what they spend the money on. They don't give the players. And at the NFL level, most of, most teams have a very basic sort of office park, not a lot of bells a whistle. I can't even describe to people or communicate to people how unremarkable some of these

places are. I'm not going to name names, but there are so many of them. It's like, really? This is where an NFL team practices and spends its time. Most of them are like that, in my opinion. I would say a vast majority. Yes. So when I was in Minnesota, I sort of saw the future. And the future, in my opinion, is a sort of arms race where you're trying to get any advantage you can and you're going to spend tens of millions of dollars to do it. Because I think the Star has that. Now, I think the Vikings has that. Star is staggering. All the needs to happen. I heard stories about these guys. I don't know if they've said it publicly. There are guys who took less money in Minnesota because they were like, you know what? This, this negative 132

cryogenic chamber, that's nice. I'm going to use that. I mean, I don't mean, a couple teams have those, but there were just like 15 of those things where I was like, wait, what? Like an underwater treadmill that, like, calculates your body. I mean, I do. I mean, I don't mean, I don't mean, I don't mean, I don't mean. I would guess I've been behind the curtain at maybe half of NFL teams facilities. And the Cowboys and the Vikings are going to have a competitive advantage because of the things that exist, both sports science-wise and analytics-wise, in those buildings. And it's not just about wooing free agents outside of your building. It's like you talked about. Think about the process the Vikings have had to go through in the past 12 months.

The types of contracts they've had to sign. Sam Bradford was before his time. What do you mean? Well, if he just played there now instead of two years ago, he'd be 100% healthy. Yeah, he would have to be an underwater treadmill. Alien technology. Get him in that underwater treadmill. Everything's fine. But think about just how many guys they've had to bring back and how hard it is to walk that financial tightrope. And if you can skimp a little bit on a contract because a guy really wants to be a part of your franchise because you have these sort of resources, that matters. I mean, that's how you are able to build a roster and retain some of these players when they are moving on to that second deal.

every single cent is important. And if that's an advantage, then it's an advantage to most teams. I think we'll try to find it. It was awesome. I'm excited to see it. I'm going later this week. I can't really.

I mean, sports science in the future. I think it gets back to something that I've been thinking about a lot. I'll probably right to some point. This is the NFL that Chip Kelly envisioned. Yes. This is the NFL.

This is sports science, man. It's here. This is analytics. It's here. Chip, Chip like Sam Bradford was a few years too early. Chip Kelly died for this. Yeah. And I just think that we are entering a very interesting future of the NFL.

So let's talk about a couple of the spots we've been on the field. I think that we both were in Cleveland. You wrote something from Cleveland. I kind of got a similar vibe from the people that I talked to there. I mean, I talked to Joel Betonio, who very strangely is one of the guys who's been there the longest now. I mean, there aren't many players who've stuck with that team for the last three or four years. I mean, everybody's been there for six months. Baker Mayfield is the longest tenured brown.

And it's odd. It creates a very unique environment. And I think that what I talked to Betonio about, and I'll probably write about this, is just how important stepping stones are when you were like a dumpster fire of a football team. Even winning five, six games would matter for the Browns just because at some point you need to be that version of an NFL franchise. And he's pretty much told me, we have all the talent we need. We don't need the number one pick anymore. We've got enough number one picks on this team.

Now it's about showing just some signs of competency as you move forward. And I think that that's an underrated thing when it comes to the trajectory of an NFL franchise, just that middle ground year. And the Browns hopefully will have that this year. And I think that based on the conversations there and the vibe there, they feel like they're going to. Yeah. I mean, you have to get, Dorsey said this to me. He said you have to get a little bit better every single year. Yes.

And, okay, the vision is probably 2020, probably 2021. But the point is to get a little bit better in 2018 and 2019. scene. Tyrod Taylor, people really, really like him. And I just, you know, I think part of it is just he is a pro and he knows exactly how to handle his business and Baker Mayfield as a rookie. And we've talked about it in the past that their learning curve is steep. They're not going to run. Even if they take a lot of elements of Oklahoma's offense, they're not going to run Oklahoma's exact offense. There's, there are a lot of things that you have to learn. And I just think that Tyrod Taylor is going to get you a couple wins. They're not going on

16. I had a, someone I trust the other day. I'm not going to, they had no connection to Browns whatsoever. Someone I trust the other day in the sport told me he thinks that they're going to compete for maybe seven wins. I think that's totally fair. Yeah. I don't understand why that's not in the cards or why that's not awesome. Because they went 116 last year.

I guess so, but here we've talked about this. The biggest jump you can make is from a team that has bottom of the barrel. all-time bad quarterback play to a real NFL quarterback. And Petonio said that to me. And just the tone with which he said, he's like, Tyra Taylor played in the playoffs last year. He took the Buffalo Bills to the playoffs. The Buffalo Bills tried to make that not a thing.

They tried to cut his feet out from under him by playing that, no, Peterman that one game, but he did that. Tyra Taylor was a playoff quarterback a year ago. They would not have had to go through all that journey, let's say, if they had not started Nathan Peterman. Yes. Well, who knows? They would be in San Diego anyway.

still one of those things. And the idea that, like, he's a real NFL quarterback. That is a massive jump. And I think that it's a weird middle ground. And the idea that you have the present because you have Tyra Taylor, who is an NFL quarterback, and you have Baker Mayfield sitting there. And I think that there are some situations where that dynamic would be a problem. Yeah. And it doesn't feel like it is a, it's a problem there. It doesn't feel like it's, they're being tugged in two different directions. It just feels like there's kind of two separate timelines that are working in concert with one another. Yeah. I totally. I totally. I mean, I think that, you know, just generally, you've talked about this, there's a basic

competence throughout the league where everyone, because everyone said a quarterback in some way, at least have a plan, I think it's going to be hard for any team to go one in 15-0 and 16 this year. Yeah, because even, you know, if you look at just roster talents, someone would say the other day that they think Seattle has one of the worst rostering league, someone put that out there the day. And I don't think that's true. I don't know. I don't think that's very far off. I think Russell Wilson, Doug Baldwin, I don't want to get into the Seahawks thing again, but they've got their top heavy to the point that it averages out to maybe where they're, they're not the worst, but their bottom 10 roster.

I think the world of Russell Wilson. All right. What else stuck out to you? What other stop would you kind of want to hit on a little bit? Everybody's pretty high on Patrick Mahomes in Kansas City. I'm there tomorrow. There's a lot of hype around that. I mean, I just think that, you know, I was on Peter King's podcast yesterday and he said,

the one thing he's noticed but these young quarterbacks is every single person in the league at the GM position is 100% convinced they've got the guy. Yeah. It's a weird thing. And what I think is the psychological thing for teams is that the quarterback is it if you're a GM. Like if you hit right in the quarterback, you'll have a job for 15 years or you'll get another job because you hit on the quarterback. And if you don't hit on a quarterback, your career is over and you'll never get another job,

right? And so in most cases. And so I sort of think that it's a psychological thing where you are so convinced you've got the guy because the alternative is you're convinced you don't have the guy and that is so horrible to face because it means your entire livelihood is two years away from being taken away. I think that's a very interesting thing to hear guys talk about the quarterbacks they have on their roster. And even if it's an assistant, I mean, think about how many jobs Brett Far have got guys. without Brett Farr of the entire coaching circle of coaching history has changed because Andy Reid, Steve Mariochi. Andy Reid, yeah.

Mike, you know, careers Andy Reid is born sense. Even all the jobs that Mike Holmgren got afterwards, that was Farr. And so, you know, I just think that if you, a rising tide lifts all boats and I think that if you're, if you hit it quarterback, it changes everybody around these destiny. So it's really fun to hear people start talking about a Mahomes or, you know, A Darnold in New York or somebody like that where they're just so excited.

And who knows if the hype is warranted? We'll find out in September, October, November. But I just think it's funny to listen to it in August. That's the vibe I got when I was at the Texans camp. It's just how much of a transformative influence a guy like Deshaun Watson is. And just how it changes the entire feeling, atmosphere attitude around a team at this point in the calendar. The Texans had never been in this position. They signed Brock Osweiler and he was so much more of a long-term answer than anyone else they'd had.

they were excited about him. Now imagine taking Deshawn Watson, who we've seen be excellent in the NFL and putting him in that position. It really has people there feeling and thinking differently they've ever thought about the franchise. And that's amazing.

I mean, it really is just, it transformative is the word. It creates an entirely new dynamic around your team. And it feels like a lot of teams are in that position, if not to that degree with Watson. Hey, do you know where Brock Oswald is playing right now?

Miami, correct? Do you know how I found that out? I saw Armando Salgaro tweets. Me too. That's how I found out about that. About how high and bad his passes were. That's incredible. How does Brock Osweiler throw high passes?

Shouldn't he have learned to just throw down directly down? Just by pure trajectory, it seems like that wouldn't be possible. An angle of attack. Shouldn't he have like an airplane coming down to land? Shouldn't he just know exactly where to throw the ball? Yeah. But Brock Osweiler is a wonder of physics in a lot of ways, I guess that's it. And finances.

So I want to talk one more, a little bit about my stop in Oakland. And I was up there for just a day. And it happened to be a day where Derek Carr was talking. And he talked for a good 10 minutes. And I wrote about this morning. And just kind of the idea that for all the jokes we can make about the John Gruden era in Oakland, we really don't have any idea how it's going to go. And the way the car was talking, I found it fascinating because he was just discussing

the way his day-to-day life has changed because John Grud. is the head coach. And he was very clear about how his feelings concerning Todd Downing and the guys that had been there. But it was more about how the room changes when your head coach is a quarterback centric offensive mind. And he was just discussing how their dialogue is constant during meetings. So just pepper him with questions. He's dreaming about John Gruden at this point. And he was not kidding. And I feel like that conversation extends to how quarterbacks can change. at certain points in their career. Because while it feels like Derek Carr is a fully formed product, because this is year five, he's not on a rookie deal anymore. He's one of those guys that needs to lift his team in order to squeeze value out of a $25 million year contract.

It's not out of the question that we'll see the best version ever of Derek Carr just because certain coaches can be really transformative influences on young quarterbacks no matter where they are in their career. Matt Ryan won a Super Bowl or went to the Super Bowl and won an MVP at age 30. Rich Gannon was 37 years old Does it kind of feel like the Falcons won that Super Bowl? Yes, I still feel like it. Yeah, it does.

When I'm thinking about that season, I'm like, oh, it's the Falcons. It's the Falcons won that year. So it just feels like if Gruden is that influence, then this is going to be a success no matter what else happens. And I'm not taking that off the table because just feel like we've seen it so many times when you bring in a coach like that, how much it can change who you are as a player. We saw the best version of Alex Smith last year 14 years into his career. Okay, so the thing with Gruden that I think is kind of fascinating is reading between the lines of everything he says and figuring out the Grudenisms because I want to be delicate here.

Gruden, he just says certain things. This was true in Tampa and it was true. I remember when I was a kid, I went to Buck's press conference in Orlando and I, you know. Like an actual kid? Or you were a kid's reporter. I was like 12. Oh, okay. Why were you there?

It's a long story. Okay. And I was there. And Gruden was talking about some wide receiver who went to Brown and as a cross player. And Gruden was talking this guy up like he was Jerry Rice. It's channeling Belichuk. And I was just like, he's just some random. He's like, I call him the golden goose.

And I'm just like, this guy is my first NFL press government's ever. I wasn't covering it. I was just sort of standing your body. That's 12 year old. You weren't covering. That's a, thank you. And I was like, I was like, I was like, this. whoever he's talking about is the future.

And I don't think I made the team. And I certainly, he did not make a dent in the league. And so I think this whole thing, and I think the biggest structural problem with being out of the league for a decade is just not doing everything to keep up with the trends and understanding the nuances. And I understand he was part of TV and he was having meetings and stuff. But I just think it'll feel like if you're not living it for a decade, there's a lot you can miss.

That's a structural problem. The stuff he said doesn't bother me all that much unless it's 100% literal. I do not want to bring politics into this, but there's a line about taking it seriously, not literally, and perhaps vice versa. And there's a little bit of parsing there as far as what John Gruden means when he says, we're going to take it back to 1998. Is he joking or not? And that's what I think is so fascinating. He comes out in week one, and him and Greg Olson are running, you know, incredible RPO's and they're just running the Texas Tech and Oklahoma Playbook. and they're running the Philly special every third play,

then guess what? He was just joking. I feel like the problem that I have, the concern that I have, is more rooted on the personnel side of things than it is on the coaching side of things. If he really is taking a lot of control over the choices that they're making, and I think we already saw that with some of the draft picks they made.

That's where this can go south in a big, big hurry. But I have more faith in how the coaching aspect of it can work out. Could it be a disaster? Absolutely. It's not hard to envision. Like I said, I wrote this morning, the doomsday scenario there. It's very easy to envision.

But again, I think that the biggest aspect of what's going on there that we have to recognize is that we have no freaking clue how it's going to go. $100 million. $100 million. So with him in Carr, I feel like where we're sitting right now in the practice we watch today and the overall situation in Nashville is similar in the sense that we saw Marcus Mariotto have the worst season of his career last year. Now he gets a new quarterback or a new office coordinator, Mattel Fuhrer, come in,

a guy who has been a disciple of Shanahan and McVey and everything else. And now he is tasked with doing the exact same thing, with kind of bringing Marcus Marieta back in the same way that Gruden has to. So what are you excited to watch with the Titans offense? What did you here see today that kind of has piqued your interest about where that relationship and where that offense is going to go? So first of all, Vrayble is pretending to still be a player out there, which I kind of enjoy.

You don't see it very often. You see a couple, you know, my example. you know, Mike Zimmer was famous for sort of jumping in defensive back drills and messing around a little bit. Mike Vrable actually gets into individual drills and just puts on a pad and just starts going at guys. Like, could you imagine? Could you imagine like Jim Caldwell doing that? Yes, and it's hilarious. I would love to see that.

I couldn't imagine it. Just doing one, just doing shoot drills with linebackers. Doing the Oklahoma. Doing the Oklahoma, we puts on a home. The best part, the best thing to visualize would just be if Caldwell just put on a helmet but just kept on like. like the polo and stuff and was just going against these guys in pole pads doing the homoamid drill or no helmet but the helmet definitely that's funnier leather helmet speaking of helmet leather helmet would be great speaking of helmets i like the navy ones i like the navy ones i like

uh yeah i didn't develop much of an opinion on it you have to see them with it with the rest of the agreed but i like the dark better even just like the helmet change i'm a fan of i don't know how i feel about the jerseys yet but i like the helmet switch mackam beller here yes me too i mean i feel like that was again that's the area of their team that needed the most We're just never going to find out what happened. No. I'm surprised how many people are still asking. I guess it's a necessary question, but I've moved on.

I kind of in 10 years. I'm on the national. There's a couple things where, because I did a story about the 07 Patriots last year. I did a story that ran today on the 08 dolphins. We'll get there. Both of them are two of the most fulfilling things that I've ever done reporting wise. And one of the things that I think about now is just what I'll be doing in the future. And one of those things, for instance, is I would definitely be doing a look back when

there's some sort of anniversary on the 6-6 Seahawks Cardinals game. It was two years ago. I know that's your highlight of your NFL career. We're just starting the clock on that. And I believe in nine years, I'm just going to be doing just an oral history of all the Malcolm, people not knowing what happened to Malcolm Bellwere ball. You don't want to do an oral history of why that happened.

You wouldn't do an oral history of people asking about Malcolm Lerner. We're never going to know. I wonder when Belichick will say something about it. Never. You don't think he'll ever do it. No, when he's like 98 years old and he's just, like, because Belich just going to live forever,

I guess. So on his deathbed is redundant. At 98? Yeah. That's a good point. Steve Belichick's going to be, it's going to be the, Steve Belichick will be the defensive coordinator,

but not in title. He'll be a special linebackers coach, since Belichick doesn't do coordinators anymore. Well, yeah, he's still going to be steadfast. Joshua Daniels will have taken and pulled out of six more jobs. All right.

So we're going to talk about your Wildcat story and the rest of the 08 football season. But first, let's take a quick break. This NFL season, be your GM. Be a winning GM. Turn this season into a fistful of epic wins by joining a Yahoo! Yahoo has spent the offseason, making serious upgrades to enhance your experience.

Upgrades like easier scoring, new trophies, and a buttery smooth app experience. So when you come to play fantasy football on Yahoo, the wins are as epic as the season is long. But to get in on the wins, you have to get in on the season. Yahoo is also the only app where you can manage all your season-long and daily fans. teams in one place. Creator join the league now, Yahoo.com slash the ringer fantasy football. Hi, buddy. So you wrote about the Wildcat

today. It's because it's 2008 week. It's 2008 week at the ringer.com. And I think that one of the reasons that we were trying to figure out our preseason coverage, we wanted that year to be something we focused on is just because it was kind of a fascinating year for football.

And there was so much stuff that kind of popped up during that year. And the Wildcat is one of the most memorable. memorable parts of it and it's stuck in my brain. I remember sitting at an apple bees in Columbia, Missouri watching the dolphins run the wildcat against the Patriots. And it just really is burned into my brain. So I want to talk to you about the story in general, but I guess the first things first, of the conversations you had, what do you think was the most enlightening? Ooh. I mean, the best anecdote that I got was unbelievable. It's in sort of the middle of the first

section of the story is that they knew, the dolphins knew that the Patriots were so confused, that They could run this trick play called a cross-country and just score an easy pass touchdown, even if they're on the two-yard line. Okay, they could have scored a touchdown because of safety. He just had no clue. And they were up 25 or 20, and David Lee says it's time for cross-country. And Chad Pennington begged him not to do it because he didn't want to run up the score on the Patriots. And he knew, as did David Lee, they would go for a touchdown anywhere on the field.

That was the drubbing. That's incredible. And so they just waited two weeks. and they finally ran the play and it was a 53 yard Patrick Cobbs touchdown in which the defense again had no idea what was going on and

he was so open that when David Pennington under threw cops and he had to stop, collect himself, get the ball and keep running. So then David Lee goes over to Chad Pennington says how did you underthrow that ball? And Pennington says

I have never seen someone so open in my life and I literally didn't know how to react. His system short-circuited. He was just like, what am I looking? I have no depth perception right now. Like, why is that guy so open? That's great. And that's why the throw was bad, because the guy was too open. And that was the wildcat. And I think the legacy of it is that it was the first time, no one runs the wildcat now. It's not, it's, the legacy of it is not the wildcat itself because running backs don't play quarterback. Okay. The legacy is rolling in Arkansas tape. Yeah. And showing these guys, hey, this is a

college offense, and we're going to do this. Four years later, three years later, Auburn's offense comes to Carolina. And Baylor's offense goes to Mike Shanahan and Kyle Shanahan with RG3. And you start to realize there's a sort of an upward trajectory. Patrick Cobbs told me, as he said, everybody used to steal a level up.

College is to steal from pros, high school and steal from college. And now that's not the case. Now everybody steals from everybody. College is where the innovation comes from. In high school in a lot of ways. And high school in a lot of ways. I'm writing about that. And I think that it started in a large part there because guess what it worked? Tony Sprano told David Lee, this is not a pro football offense. Well, guess what? That's the whole point. And I think that there's, you know, the 07 Patriots had so much to do with the influence of the modern passing game.

But I think a lot of the stuff we see, especially in the run game, especially just stylistically started with those 08 dolphins. 08 to me is a season I just remember really well I guess is because of how old I was So I was 20, you know, when that draft happened I remember watching that draft in London actually I was at the American Sports Barreter Piccadilly Circus in London And I wanted to watch the draft

And that draft The reason I remember it so well Is because it was really weird With how many linemen went in the first round That was the draft where it was Jake Long My guy Ryan Clady Jeff Otaugh

the guy that the Bears drafted whose name I forget because I've tried to forget his offense can, Chris Williams so a ton of Sam Baker was that year so there was so many offensive linemen drafted and their fates just were so scatter shot that I just really remember that well and the other part I remember speaking of

Sam Baker that was the year that really transformed the Falcons if you consider the fact that was the season that Thomas de Mitrov got there Matt Ryan is drafted. We talk all the time about that Dolphins team and how much they rebounded after the one in 15 season, but the 07 Falcons were a disaster, just an absolute disaster.

And then you bring in Dimitrov, you draft Matt Ryan, and it changes the entire fate of the franchise. I don't know what you mean about the 07 Falcons being a disaster. They just got abandoned by their coach randomly in the middle of the night and their starting quarterback went to prison. It seems like not a great year. The worst season, like the most, like everything goes wrong season for an NFL team in our lifetime, you think?

I think that those two I mean the 07 dolphins were right there and without the jail time I think the jail time is a pretty The jail time is a key part of it But the dolphins in the season of 2007 Also got abandoned By their coach for college

They hired Cam Cameron Who is a bottom five NFL head coach in my lifetime Just the worst Just the absolute worst And the fact that he got multiple shots As an offensive coordinator after that just baffles me. I remember one of my colleagues

when I was working down there when I was in college. So the Cam Cameron was the only person in the world who had a mixture of an every man. Like I'm every man and also had a smartest guy in the room complex and it collided in a way. It collided in a way that was just so awkward and unbelievable or he'd come up and be like, I'm just like you guys,

but also I'm so much smarter than you guys. And he really wasn't. So many ISO routes. So I once heard a story about how he, before a season took, this is not in the wild car point and this is completely separate. He took some of the position coaches

in a room and drew a huge circle and then a little dot and said, see this huge circle? That's what I know about football. See this little dot here? That's what you know about football. That's a really good way

to kind of nurture your staff. I'm not sure that's ever been written. I heard that from a guy who was in the room. I probably just wasted a good anecdote. That's what we do here. Drop it on the podcast. What was I going to do with that? anecdote.

That's probably true. What was I going to do? The Super Bowl that year, Steelers' Cardinals. Yeah. The most entertaining Super Bowl that you can remember? Or do you think that the ones recently have jumped that? Falcons Eagles is the best ever. Falcons Eagles?

I'm sorry. Falcons Patriots. I just combined the last two NFC. There was a Falcons Eagles game. The last two Super Bowls are fair. Because those are, they were both incredible. So if you just have me saying Falcons comma Eagles, I would. was referring to the last two Super Bowls,

even though I wasn't doing that. That was what was popping up in my mind. I think that there's been some sense that have definitely given that a run, but it was an amazing game. And what I really remember from that playoffs in general, I don't think we appreciate 10 years later how truly dominant Larry Fitzgerald was

over the course of those playoffs. Totally agree. It was that stretch in those few games, I can't remember a receiver reaching that level. I think Julio had a real. really good playoffs a couple years ago. I mean, you think about what he did to the Packers. But I just, the way that Larry Fitzgerald seemingly took over every single game

and almost single-handedly won some of those games for the Cardinals. And rejuvaded Kurt Warner's career, which is very important because we needed Kurt Warner back into relevance. Kurt Warner does not make the Hall of Fame if he doesn't have that season in Arizona. And I think that that's credit, a lot of credit to Larry Fitzgerald. And if this is the last season that Larry Fitzgerald plays, if this is the Swan Song, and it kind of sucks that they won't be very. good and they probably won't be very relevant if it is his last season. But in my mind, that is the version of Blair Fitzgerald that will forever be cemented in my mind. It is his legacy.

The fact that at the highest level in the biggest games, he was able to make NFL players, real NFL players look like they had no fucking clue what they were doing. That's awesome. And there's only a handful of guys who do that. And I don't want to go back to the Wildcat here, but I will for a second. That's sort of the beauty of what we saw in that Patriots game. It's kind of fun. it's kind of fun to see an NFL team, especially the Patriots, just have no clue. Yes. And it's like, hey, NFL players, dude, just like us. You know, I got an anecdote from one of the guys, Mike Verrable, who we both talked to earlier today, he was yelling at them play real football because that was the only reaction.

That's great. That's so great. I love that. Yeah, there's no other way. So, and another thing that from, oh, wait, that I want to chat about just briefly, I'm actually writing about it for this week. I think the safety position is in such an interesting spot right now in terms of value, in terms of the way it's kind of looked at compared to other defensive positions. Kenny Vicaro is here.

He just got signed this week after going in the entire offseason without a job. I try to do a story about how they were, they killed the labor market at safety. And then the second day of my reporting, Trey Boston signed. And I just decided to stop doing that. Well, the fact that they had to wait so long to get signed even. Sure. And that market does seem like it's separating from the corner market in a way that doesn't necessarily make sense. I talked to Malcolm Jenkins about it and he thought that it was just a one year blip.

It's a blip. Because Eric Barry got signed. Malcolm Jenkins makes a lot of money. I thought, you know, I would similar things from people. I would group Earl Thomas in with that because Earl Thomas is the best safety we've had in the last decade and nobody will trade a high pick for him. And no, he won't get an extension. I've asked, I asked Tyrone Matthew about Earl Thomas. I ask Kevin Byer today about Earl Thomas.

and I think that they're kind of in the same mode where there's like, what is happening? If Earl Thomas can't get paid, what are the rest of us going to do? But it's been, I think that it is a blip. I think it'll be fine. The way that Tyron said it to me, and I think he was correct,

and I'll put this in what I write, is that they just need some momentum to build up in the position because all the guys that had been getting paid or were some of the better players of the position have got hurt recently. So you haven't had guys stringed together a lot of good seasons,

which I think is actually a really good point. But the reason that that's connected to 2008 is because we're 10 years removed from a time where two safeties were probably the best two defensive players in the NFL. I mean, you think about what Ed Reed did that, you're at nine interceptions, you had two touchdowns, what Paul Malu was that season for Pittsburgh. And it just feels like that isn't the case anymore. Safeties are no longer the best defenders in the NFL.

And maybe that's a blip in 08 in talent, and maybe that's a blip right now in talent. So there's a couple of things I want to talk about. Number one, the pass rushers became so insanely good that it's hard for a safety. I mean, let's say that we're in some alternate world and Vaughn Miller and J.J. Watt and Colomack and Donald don't exist. Well, we're probably talking about Earl Thomas is the best defensive player. You know, I mean, it's just there was just a critical mass of pass rushers. And a lot of that is just, it's the trends of the game. I mean, if you are a, if you are a six four guy who can have a body that will do anything, you can play any position.

not safety, but you can play a lot of different places. Okay. And because past rushers became the most important and most paid position outside of quarterback, a lot of guys just gravitated there when they were 14 or 15 years old. And I just think that that is sort of how the game went. And so we just view those guys as super duper stars.

There's still the superstars at safety. There's not like the defensive linemen who were just, those guys are a miracle. And they affect the game on every play in a way that safety can't necessarily. But I still think that right now, the way the game is played, how the middle of the field is used,

how many teams are using tight ends of slot receivers, just the way that the best offenses in football are attacking that area between the numbers, I feel like there are more demands on safety than they've ever been, and I think that they can be more valuable than they've ever been. And that's kind of why this disconnect is strange for me. You know, there's a neutralization that goes on. You can't just knock the crap out of the guy anymore.

Yes, the rules have also changed it. I remember writing four years ago, people saying, Jerry Gray, it was a defense coordinator here, right? About 15 feet away from us, we had a conversation, and he was like, teams are going to start game planning to go over the middle of the field because you cannot have the safety play. You look at Ed Reed, you look at Troy Palomal Malo.

What could they do? When I was doing a helmet rule story in March after the rule was passed, I found a quote from Troy Palomalo that was like, if they keep doing this, it's flag football. The game has already been ruined, et cetera, et cetera. That was from 2008. 10 years ago before the rules actually changed. Yeah.

And it's like, well, what are you going to do now if you thought the game was ruined 10 years ago? If you're Troy Paul Moll. If Troy Pallel Moll was born in 1993, you'd have a very different career. All right, before we move on, let's take one more quick break. Hiring, every business needs great people

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That's right, free. Just go to ZipRecruiter.com slash ringer NFL. That's ZipRecruiter.com slash ringer NFL. ZipRecruiter.com slash ringer NFL. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. Let's chat about, I just want to hit on a couple Titans things before we get out of here because I think that this is a team that I'm really curious to watch. I think it has to do with what they're going to look like offensively.

We just went on the radio in Nashville earlier with Paul Kuharski talking about some of this stuff. I think that I want to talk about it a little bit more. I am fascinated to see what this version of what Matt Lafour's offense is going to look like and how it compares to what McVeigh and Shanahan have done. Because we see this just with the way coaching hires happen. You have these guys that are these Wunderkind offensive minds in Shanahan and McVeigh, and the trend is going to be that the people are in their sphere are going to get these chances. But two things about that. One, we don't necessarily know what in print schematically LaFour is going to have in his own offense.

And two, there's no guarantee that he's going to be anything close to what Sean McVey and Kyle Shanahan are because what those, what makes those guys great is not X's and O's. It's not how people line up. It's not play designs. It's having a feel for play calling rhythm and how to see the game three dimensionally. And that is not something you can necessarily teach. I just want to let you know that after like 6,000 miles and to car my legs no longer work. Yeah, that sounds good. Personal news. Yeah. My body is rejecting me right now. So the young coach's thing is fascinating because you got into this a little bit with Matt Nagy too. It's really hard to predict who out of a tree is going to become successful and who's not. I think speaking of 2008, if you were to place bets on the greatest ever Belichick successor, Eric Mangini would have been off the board.

I mean, Eric Manjini would have the king of the world. and that just didn't develop for him. He didn't have the people skills and he took a bad job in Cleveland. And, you know, if you were to predict ahead of time who was going to come out of that Belichick tree, he'd be one of them. I mean, I think that,

how do you view Charlie Weiss's career? Pretty okay for a little bit. It was fine. It was forgettable. At Notre Dame? Yeah. Remember when people thought he was, that whatever,

he was a chief's coordinator, came back. Yes. very briefly. People thought he was going to take Todd Haley's job. And then he went to Kansas. Wasn't that just to get his son a job? I don't know. I don't think of a fight with Charlie Wise.

He's a Florida. He was the Gators coordinator. He was a Gators' office coordinator, yes. Wow. I think his career is fine. And I don't know. The fact that we're having this discussion really speaks to how few Belichick disciples had success.

No, but what I'm saying is, but it would not surprise me Matt Patricia did. Now, Mount Patricia is not particularly high on the list of people who are, who came out of that tree. Yes. And but yet I just it is so hard for me to under to unless you're in the building and you've thoroughly researched it. It is so hard to know who is responsible for what schemes. Was Bill Belichick actually in charge when when the defense played well and was Patricia in charge when it didn't play well? I just think that it's so the hardest thing in football with the coaching hire is to elevate a guy who maybe hasn't had responsibility and figure out what he can do. And that's what's happening here because he went from Sean McVeigh who was a hands-on offensive coach who was

literally in Jared Gough's ear before the snap, and now he's with a defensive head coach who's going to be on the defensive side of the ball. He's in linebacker drills, as we talked about. He's in a regular old Jim Colwell. He's going to have a lot of autonomy early at least. And Matt's the show. Flur is going to do that. You know,

reminds me a little bit and this is just systematically. He does not remind me of this person. I would not make this comparison, but the Jets left Brian Schottenheimer to his own devices because Rex Ryan didn't care about offense. And at the time, Brian Chattahemer was well thought of. I think he turned down the bill's head coaching job,

or at least they wanted to talk to him and he would have gotten it. And I just think that you have so much responsibility that it can either be incredibly good or it can go south real fast. And that's what I think is interesting to watch when that kind of thing happens. What I want to see is what elements of those offenses make their way to Tennessee. And I think that what I saw today, you already see some of the first rumblings of that. They were doing a lot of play action specific drills. Even in 11 on 11 I was seeing a lot of play action throws.

Mario was the most effective play action passer in the NFL last season. They need more of that and that's exactly what the Rams and the Falcons have done over the last couple years. Two, it's about how they use these personnel groupings. Because there was so much 11 personnel with the Rams last year. But

LeFleert said today essentially that that was by necessity just based on the players they had in the room. Now he comes to a team that's really spent the last couple seasons making their personnel very big. You have a lot of tight ends, running backs, fullbacks. That's what Atlanta like to do. Throw out of 13 personnel. Is that going to happen?

So I think him trying to take the best elements of the past two stops he's been at and mix and match them in order to find his version of this offense. If that happens in a streamlined way, then this offense can be pretty damn good. I think we can see a version of Mario that we've never seen before. Best guess. What does his team do this year? I think they can

I honestly think they can win 10 games in the best version of it I think that they can be a playoff team but they were a fake playoff team last year a very fake playoff team last year you're just saying that like two teams in every conference were a fake playoff team

no the NFC had it like eight playoff teams should we just award playoff spots just retroactively to NFC teams that's what we tried to do last year I wanted to put more NFC teams because the Titans didn't deserve

to be in. Dude, remember when everybody was like, oh, the Chargers should be in this game and then the Titans beat the Chiefs? Yeah, but this Chargers still should have been in that game. It doesn't matter. I'm so tired of this Chargers thing.

Then they should have less talent if you don't want people. Oh, yeah, they've done so, they have so much talent. They can't stop not making the playoffs. They have a ton of talent. Great. Phenomenal.

They just hurt every single year. I just love to read about all their talent that they have for the past 15 years. I think they've had a lot of talent the last two years. They've had a lot of talent the last 15 years. I don't have anything

personally against anybody in Los Angeles. I don't care. I don't even, I've been to, I think two practices in my entire life because they've been,

either they were on the West Coast in San Diego for so long and I wasn't really around them. But I just think this idea that there's like the most exciting team in history and they should be gifted

playoff spots. It just drives me up a wall. At full strength, they have one of the most talents roster. Phenomenal. Guess what the Eagles did last year? They stayed healthy.

No, no, no, they won a Super Bowl with the backup quarterback and a backup left tackle. So, yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, so I guess, uh, well, at full strength. At full strength, what would they have done? Won three Super Bowls last year? The Eagles? The Eagles are an exception. Oh, no, they're an exception because they don't make excuses.

They don't make excuses. I mean, I don't think that the Chargers problem is, it has been injuries. And you think that you saw them at pretty much complete at the end of the season last year, they were one of the best teams in the NFL. I mean, they, they are. When, when they're going and when they have guys, round they're one of the most talented teams in the league period that's why people are excited about it i'm kind of the more i go into football the more i buy into the bill parcels you are

what your record says you are i'm sort of i don't really buy into that i'm no okay no there's more there's more highfalut in ways to analyze a game than wins and losses there is oh yeah no i got all we got bud i uh it was good to do this sitting next to each other instead of having to do it on the phone and you're gonna you're gonna forget your keys you drop them down there i'm not gonna forget them i'm telling you right now my stuff is strewn about i'm not the best version of myself. It's been a long couple. Like, it's been a long week. I'm getting a second wind. I'm getting energy. There it is. All right. We will be back next week to chat with you guys more about camp.

As always, thank you so much for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer podcast network. They have so much talent. They can't stop not making the playoffs. See this huge circle? That's what I know about football. See this little dot here? That's what you know about football. Good. If you love to score amazing deals in incredible hotels, you'll love Hotel Tonight. Hotel Tonight partners with hotels to help them sell their unsold, rooms, helping you find sweet deals at cool, top-rated hotels. Even though their name's Hotel Tonight, you can also book in advance for spontaneous weekend getaways, staycations, three-day weekends,

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