The Ringer NFL Show - Undefeated Daniel Jones and the Week of the Backup QB, Mahomes vs. Lamar, and Rams and Browns Concern | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: September 23, 2019

Daniel Jones offers a glimpse into what the Giants could be, Teddy Bridgewater and Kyle Allen stay afloat, and Mason Rudolph sinks (1:50). The Texans, Bills, and 49ers make up today’s Stock Up while the Eagles, Rams, and Browns make up Stock Down. And finally, tonight’s challenge flags of the week and tomorrow’s headlines (29:30). Host: Robert Mays, Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Kevin, how you doing, buddy? I'm watching the new NFL primetime thing with Berman and Teach, and I'm having a great time. I'm having a great time. I have not seen it yet. I think I've made a mistake by not. I really should dig into it soon. The one thing that I forgot about that I guess was rattling around in my subconscious somewhere

is that that music gives me PTSD for having to go to school the next day. see you've said before that like it gets you really jacked up well no it does like when i listen to it on youtube it's sort of in the genre of the NFL film saying where it's like hell yeah there's also like this is one thing you also don't realize is there's like nine different NFL primetime songs really yeah i don't know if there's nine i think there's one no no no no no you think you think there's only one and then you click on the youtube and there's like seven I'm just, trust me. I'm, trust me on this one.

I, I am living a pretty, you know, unadventurous life then. I should probably dig into that. I think that between the NFL prime time songs and the NFL film songs, there is a phenomenal soundtrack to the sport we cover. So we are recording this, as we always do on Sunday night, after week three. And I think that week three was kind of undeniably the week of the backup quarterback. or the starting quarterback. I guess the starting quarterback.

The backup quarterback that is now starting. So we had almost a quarter of the league with their nominally backup quarterback in the game on Sunday. And we want to talk about, at least I want to talk about how the performances on Sunday kind of speak to where these teams go from here, both maybe it's next week or for the rest of the season or even further than that. So of the non of the quarterbacks who did not start week one, who did start yesterday, where do you want to start? I want to start with Daniel Jones. I think that's the only place we can. And I don't even, we're going to get into this.

We can talk about sort of what these, what this means for the giants going forward or whatever and how much this matters. And there's a lot of ramifications there. But I also want to talk about how that doesn't matter right now. like this was an awesome game. It was an awesome comeback. The buck should have won it and we'll get to the Bruce Ariens decision

that led to them not winning a little bit later in the show. But he had one of the best performances statistically in the history of rookie quarterbacks, two rushing touchdowns, including the eventual game winner. I just, after,

this is sort of one of the things we talked about a little bit all off season, which was how funny. And that really is the word, How funny would be for all of us who criticized Daniel Jones pick if he turned out to be a legitimate football player. And, you know, I said this a couple weeks ago, but it's kind of an I Am Spartacus thing in the sense that pretty much all media panned it. There were only a handful of, I don't even maybe, I saw Jim Nagy from the Senior Bowl was being praised as one of the few people who was sort of like Daniel Jones is good. So he's, he's on one side.

But most people were pretty against the pick. And if they weren't against the pick, they were against him being at least a top 10 pick. And maybe you get him later in the draft. I was one of those people. I thought that if you really believed in them, if you really believed in them, you could have gotten them with the second pick in the first round in the middle there. I really think there were some value questions there. But if Daniel Jones is a franchise guy that they think he is,

then taking them in the top 10 is totally fine. So what do we have here? A lot of us who temporarily tonight have to sort of have egg on our face, that's fine. This was really fun. I really enjoyed it. So what does this mean going forward? I mean, listen, man, he showed some basic competence and some basic talents that I think make him at least an average starter, which to be honest with you, this soon I'm surprised

by. I think there are two things to kind of take into account when it comes to the Giants today. They did not have Saquan Berkeley and they were fun as hell to watch. There are a couple of ways that NFL Twitter was able to just sort of explode today. One of them was that Daniel Jones was awesome. We all got dunked on. The other is that there was Daniel Jones apparently cursed in the huddle and that's what got everybody going.

That was the energy spark is that Daniel Jones dropped the F bomb in the huddle and everybody was excited. And then we somehow got with Sequin's injury a weird running back value conversation that nobody else wanted to have because the comeback. came without Sequin on the field. I just think the fact that we got to see a entertaining Giants game that Saquan Barkley was not a part of and O'L Beckham was not a part of is a borderline miracle, which speaks to Daniel Jones. So I think that the idea that Sequan was not a part of this and it was still fun and this

Giants team was worth watching, that's why Daniel Jones going in for Eli is what should have happened earlier or it should have happened at the beginning of the, the season. This team was worth watching today because of Daniel Jones. And I was in the same boat as you. I thought it was a ridiculous pick. I thought that picking him at six was silly as can be. And one game in, I am going to start watching the Giants. And I think that's all you have to say about the value of having Daniel Jones instead of Eli Manning. Here's my question. If this saves everybody's job, if Dave Gettleman gets to stay forever, if Pat chairman gets to stay for over and it's kind of funny because it reminds me a little bit of what happened

with mara cooper last year where well the good news is a maria cooper saved the cowboy season the bad news is that means jason garrett stays and and they don't make any structural changes within the organization whether that's you know hiring a different you know whatever i think they the cowboys draft pretty well but that's near the her nor there but everything stays yeah if if everything stays the same was amy cooper worth it right like obviously the cowboys are a better position now so that that arguments uh put us up for a second. But if this is what leads to the regime in New York, getting, you know, three more years, four more years, if Dave Gettleman, the guy who built the secondary and traded O'Dell Beckham and all

this stuff, if he sticks around, is that a problem in your opinion? Or is Daniel Jones the type of quarterback who might be able to be a deodorant and solve all these problems? It's too early to say. Yeah. I feel like the choices they've made so far are probably in the aggregate a bad thing. But like you say, the quarterback is all that matters. If you find the right guy, it can make up for a lot of woes. And if he becomes that guy, then we're not going to care about that other stuff. But it's still way too early to make that determination. Hey, do you know who would have been a really good receiver for Daniel Jones to play with? Odell Beckham. O'Dow Beckham, Jr. He would have been great. Great little security blanket.

All right. Let's get to some of these other backup quarterbacks that play today. Is there anybody else that jumped out to you? I think that Teddy Bridgewater, and the Saints winning in the fashion that they did is probably the second most notable happening this weekend. Just because that team is so talented, we talked about this on Thursday show. It just seems like they have enough on the rest of the roster that they could maybe sustain a month with Teddy Bridgewater. Did today do anything to kind of get you off of that line of thinking?

Well, Teddy Bridgewater was solid today. He was helped along by a. a special team touchdown, a defensive touchdown. I think that they did the things they needed to do. I don't think anyone is calling for a quarterback controversy in New Orleans once Drew Brise gets back like they will in Carolina. We'll get to that in a second. But I think that that's what we talked about going into the weekend, which was this team

is good enough to stay afloat until Breeze gets back. That division, although if Kyle Allen wins them some games, it's a little bit different in Carolina. But that division is such, we saw another kind of Atlanta egg laying. this weekend. And so that division is such that you only really need to go 500 until Breeze comes back and you'll be in good position. So I think they checked all the boxes. Good game. I think Bridgewater played well. You know, again, I think that the idea that when Breeze retires, the Bridgewater will step in and they won't miss a beat in a couple of years is

still a bit optimistic. But I was definitely encouraged for what I saw. I feel the same way. And I think that that division, the, the kind of Kyle Allen thing kind of complicates things a little tiny bit. Yeah. With Atlanta playing like they played, I think that this is a huge win for them. Because they did not need to beat Seattle. Seattle was playing extremely well. This was not a given.

And for Bridgewater to just be, you know, he wasn't spectacular today, but he was good enough. And I think that if they can kind of get through the next couple weeks, we've talked about how the next month of their schedule kind of eases up a little bit. that being said, I feel like the Kyle Allen thing might be, I don't want to say it's real in the sense that when Cam Newton comes back, it's going to be a conversation. But I think we saw today that that roster is so good that even with solid, healthy quarterback play, they can be dangerous.

So them winning that game today in Carolina and kind of staying afloat, this is not necessarily a cakewalk for New Orleans, even with Atlanta being this bad. I'm with you on that one. I think that the Kyle Allen thing was really interesting to me because you've been a believer in Carolina's roster talent. It's always to an extent, but you really state your territory early on. And Cam Newton looked really, really, really hurt the first two weeks. And he did not like himself.

And quite frankly, even though I think Cam Newton's highs are as high. anybody in football when he's could he is just elite of the elite he is not he is as bad as he's looked in the NFL and I think a lot of that is due to health a lot of that's due to just accumulation of the way the hits he's taken over the past couple years and the injuries he's taken in comes Kyle Allen four touchdowns 261 yards a slew of panthers passing records for efficiency and I don't know I wonder if average quarterback players slightly above average quarterback play is what they need right now. And we just need to give Cam Newton.

I kind of came up with the idea coming into the weekend that we give Cam Newton a month off just to rest up. That idea is looking better and better right now. So that to me is the most encouraging part about this is that it's, I don't think there's a quarterback controversy. I think that when Cam Newton comes back and he's healthy, Cam Newton will be the quarterback. But when will that be? So that's exactly right. What Kyle Allen showed you today, I think gives you patience.

So there are next four games are Houston, Jacksonville, Tampa Bay, and the Niners. If Kyle Allen is the quarterback we saw today, admittedly against a very bad Cardinals defense, why shouldn't he play for the next month? If he can do this for you, I think it gives you patience and I think it gives you a much longer timetable in terms of just keeping Cam Newton on the shelf and letting him get right. And I think that's really valuable to you if you're the Carolina Panthers.

Here's the deal. Kyle Allen is never going to be as good as a healthy and good Cam Newton. But this Kyle Allen lets you get to that. No, that's what I'm saying. Possibly. Yeah, of course. I'm saying that if Cam Newton can get healthy,

then there's no quarterback controversy in my mind, ever. Like, Cam Newton is always better than Kyle Allen. if both of them are healthy and both they're playing at their peak. But I'm just extremely concerned with what Cam has left for 2019, even if he gets a month off. I mean, he really, really looked bad against Tampa. We saw against New York today how bad Tampa is and how many mistakes they made and how many just wide open guys Daniel Jones could find

because there's so many breakdowns in the secondary. Okay. I just, I don't, it's kind of an unknowable answer at this point, But, you know, I think the first thing you do is give him a month off. The second thing you do is just really think about how much Kim Newton can give you right now. Because I think above average quarterback play would get the Panthers into the playoffs. I feel like overall this week, you know, we talked about this. I think you mentioned it last week in reference to, I think it was the Eagles where it was it's not your backup quarterback.

It's your second quarterback. Yeah, you know, Jeffrey Lurie line. And we've seen how important it is to have that second guy because, you know, Kyle Allen played in week seven. last year. And he was really good. And it's hard to know how much of that is real, how much of that is just one fluke performance when you're not expecting,

when you were expecting the starter to play. And I think that Kyle Allen has shown us over these two starts that he's had, that he's absolutely a viable backup quarterback, which just makes it kind of silly that the panthers picked him back up in round four. Right, right, yeah, who wasn't Kyle Allen. But, you know, it's interesting to me

because one of the things we saw tonight was Baker Mayfield, look like he didn't know how to play. And I think that's instructive because when we saw Baker Mayfield last year, especially in that seven-game stretch where he was one of the most efficient passers in the history of football, I think one of the things you take from that is don't read too much into a rookie year because everything can change and talent matters.

Offensive line matters. Coaching matters. Schemes matter. All of this stuff matters to where if we say, okay, Kyle, I had four touchdowns today or Daniel Jones had two Russian touchdowns looked good and all that stuff, or the exact opposite is true. If Mason Rudolph looked just okay, that stuff can change really quickly. Making long-term plans based on that kind of stuff is really foolish at this point.

So I just want to throw that caveat out there that we've seen far too many instances of either us thinking a guy is good and then it'll last forever and then it doesn't. I mean, remember, when we're talking about, you know, all these guys who are using their college schemes and stuff, the absolute pinnacle of that was RG3, who like he was going to run the league in 2012 for the next 10 years. and all of a sudden he's a backup now. So I was out of league for a little bit. So rookie quarterbacks in analyzing them is the hardest thing to do,

maybe only second to analyzing college quarterbacks. Like those are the two hardest things to do in football. College quarterbacks and rookie quarterback. So this entire discussion is taken with one big grain of salt. Yeah, I think that it's important to understand how these situations are different in terms of how long they need to be sustained, right? Right. So with Teddy Bridgewater and Kyle Allen, it's can these guys keep these teams afloat?

And even after one week, I still feel comfortable saying yes to that. With Daniel Jones, it's how good can the Giants be with Daniel Jones? There's no way to say at this point. They played a bad Tampa team and they were worth watching. That's pretty much as far as I want to go with that. How that is so different from any Giants game in you. years. Absolutely. I think, but it's with, with Daniel Jones, the answer to whether Daniel Jones is good is so much more important than the answer as to whether Kyle Allen is good. Right.

And it's just, but there's no, there's nothing to say about that long term projection at this point. There just isn't. There are two people who are in the exact middle of it is incredibly important and it's not very important if they're good. And that, That's Gardner Minshu and Mason Rudolph, who are essentially two 2019 quarterbacks who will figure it out in the offseason for 2020 quarterbacks. Yeah.

And I think that... So what did you think about Rudolph, first of all? I thought he was fine. And I feel like with the Rathustberger thing, I think that if Rathustberger has to miss next season, based on the very little I've seen for Mason Rudolph, they can ride it out through 2020. Would you say that's fair?

Ride it out through 2020, meaning what? They can win seven games? Yeah, they won't be a disaster, but they won't be a contender. Yeah, I mean, I think they lost to a pretty good San Francisco team today.

I don't think they're going to make the playoffs. By the way, Minket Fitzpatrick looks really good. Just FYI. We're not going to talk about that game later. I just want to point that out. He looked really, really good. And that's another kind of maybe they overpaid,

but but maybe it's good to have them on your roster type of type of value pick. So I did not watch the, I only saw the, the pick six for Fitzpatrick, but that was tipped. Is there anything else he did? Force fumble as well. Okay. So he was, he was, he was playing like the type of guy you trade a first round pick for now. Or the type of guy that's no longer on the dolphins is in the type of guy who just feels great about it. Now here's what I'll say about it, I think is at least a little bit comforting.

The way Rudolph played is. is suggestive that maybe they're not going to be drafting in the top five next year and that that Dolphins pick is going to be, was going to turn into a good quarterback. That's a really good point. Right? Like that's, that's, I think the biggest worry on every Steelers fan's mind right now is just the idea of,

of them going, you know, two and 14 or something and them having, you know, the dolphins having the first two picks in the draft. I don't think that's going to happen. I think Mason Rudolph has a baseline of confidence. The roster talent is still there.

I am in generally on, on just them being a competent team in 2019 that doesn't make the playoffs. Yeah, and I think after trading away your first round pick, that's kind of the floor of what you want, right? You just don't want to be a disaster. And I think they've gotten there. Let's get to minch you because I think he might be kind of good, man. Me too.

I don't. And it's such a bummer because this is the type of thing where you stumble into this guy who was a sixth round pick. How much do you think Gardner Minshue's making this season? 4-10. So Gardner-Minshue's contract in 2019 will pay him $542,000 a year. Perfect. Nick Foles this year carries a cap hit of $12 million in part because that's because

he's hurt. next year, Nick Foles's cap hit is 22.1 with a dead cap hit of 33.9. And he has a cap hit in 2021 of 26.9 million with 12.5 million in dead money. Here's what I like when a lot of backup

quarterbacks play or a lot of, there's a lot of quarterback movement in general. Because again, Daniel Jones is going to be long-term starter this year. I just think that fortunes rise and fall so much when it was quarterback changes. This is something I talked about a lot a couple years ago when there were what six first round quarterbacks. 2018,

1998 was like this, 1983 where there's just a ton of new quarterbacks coming into the league. And I kind of feel like that on a day like today where there's what five or this weekend there were five or six new quarterbacks. Some of these quarterbacks are going to change. their franchise forever. And I don't know if Minchu is one of these guys, but he really has the chance.

He really has the chance to change the shape of the Jaguars franchise. Now, this one is more complicated than anything. Eli Manning is no longer the starter in New York. He's going to be a free agent. The huge contract's going to come off the books. Everything's going to be fine. They can do that rookie contract thing there. If Minchu pops and Fools never again regains his job,

you just said those scary dead cap numbers. That's what's interesting to me. what do the Jaguars do if Minchu is a better player for the Jaguars than Nick Foles would be? I think it's a matter of seeing if someone will take the Foles contract. What can you trade him for? And does it become even a scenario like the Brock Osweiler situation? Right. Where you actually give up a pick in order to get out from under the deal.

I understand the Nick Foles playoff hero stuff. He's been, he's had those moments. It's been great. this is crazy to say but gardener gartner minchew in the last two weeks has pretty much been as good as nick foals has ever been as a regular season quarterback um would you say that's fair well no i actually think that the 2013 chip kelly year was unbelievable he had that one game against oakland and he was pretty good outside of that yeah outside of the outside of the chip kelly year i would say these two weeks. I think that maybe with Philadelphia, that's the under Doug Peterson. That might be

the case. I think that's still a little bit. I think that it's a pretty small sample size at this point. I'd like to see a little bit more from Minchu. And I think that everything we're discussing now about whether he's a long-term thing, that's mostly just for fun. I still, there's still a very good chance that Gardner Minchu is not the hero that we think we're getting here. I think that the bar he has to clear because of the money to foals is very high. Yes. And I don't think he's cleared it yet. But I will say in watching him in this short little spurt here, he's been accurate.

He's been decisive. He looks like an NFL quarterback. What if his only legacy here is that he keeps Jalen Ramsey and Jacksonville? Because that's interesting to me. It's just the idea that they, the report now is that he still wants to be traded, but Jacksonville is less likely to do so. So they had this big win against the division rival on Thursday night. And now I'm really intrigued to see whether or not Jacksonville says,

you know, we got a chance to make a run in this division because we have Gardner, because we have Gardner Minchu as a sentence you didn't expect to hear last week. And now Jaylen Ram's going to stick around. I think that's so fucking ridiculous to me. That's a fascinating wrinkle. Why is it ridiculous to you? I cannot believe an NFL team would make a long term, a huge decision based on one Thursday they win over the Titans. I don't think that's true.

I don't think that's true. I think it's more about they want to keep Jailen Ramsey anyway. And now they're going to use that now they could potentially use the excuse of we're not, we're not tanking. That's all. I don't, I don't think they want to get rid of Jalen Ramsey. If a team offered you,

if a team offered you two first round picks for Jalen Ramsey, you have to take it no matter how, what you think your 2019 outlook is. Now, is there a confirmed offer out there? I saw that there was a big offer from the Ravens. Right. So we don't yet know if that

The Ravens offer was the first, a second, and Haydenhurst, correct? Isn't that what you saw? I think that's what we saw. Yeah, would you take that. I don't know if I would. I would. Okay.

I'm not saying, I'm not saying no. I'm saying I don't know if I would. I just don't have a ton of faith in this version of the Jaguars. Coming into the season, I didn't have a ton of faith in it. You shorting Gardner Minshu. Gardner Minshu wasn't a part of this. version of the Jaguars when I was shorting them.

I know, but he is now. He's the future. I think that the Foles deal was very risky when they did it. And now I think there's no way to understand if Gardner Minchew's going to be a player when you draft him, right? I mean, it's a six-round pick. It's to say, I can't believe they paid Nick Foles. They got Gardner Minchew.

Well, the Nick Foll's contract was absurd. That was the whole, the whole you have to pay them so the locker room respects him thing. That was one of the strangest things I've heard of maybe the last three. years of contract negotiations. I think that was part of it. But it's also this idea of when you give out that deal, it's supposed to be the last thing you have to do. Right? The Vikings did that with cousins. It was kind of this overpay because it's the final piece of the puzzle. And I think what Jacksonville, it never was. And I think now they have egg on their face because they have to pay him this. And there's a real chance that the better quarterback on their roster is making 430 grand.

this year. Yeah, it's like if Matt Flynn or had signed a $50 million contract, instead of like a $16 million contract. Exactly. And there was a deter. And if Gardner Minshu was Russell Wilson and not Gardner, but it's, I understand what you're saying.

That's, it's not a one for one comparison because Russell Wilson's actually like one of the best like seven quarterbacks in the NFL. But it still is one of those things where money dictates decision making. Yeah. And with Seattle, Matt Flynn's contract wasn't such that you could just say, well, we screwed this up. This is the guy. He's the guy making $500 grand is the guy.

You can't just do that with Gardner Minshu now because of how much they paid Foles. And that's why it's unfortunate. Yeah, I'm with you. Jacksonville is on my watch list with the Giants right now. Am I wrong about that? You want to see Gardner Minchu play football? I am, I am so much more interested in. Jacksonville because of Gardner Minchew.

That I completely can see that. What's your schedule looking like? The Jaguars in their next. Broncos win. Panthers are a little Kyle Allen. Kyle Allen. Do you see a lot of the way? You see one of the way.

I know of Sanders say that the Broncos are in a world of suck. All right. They get. He's not wrong. He's not wrong at all. The Jaguars then have Kyle Allen and the Panthers on. the sixth. Before we move on, let's take a quick break. With two-thirds of guys experiencing noticeable hair loss before age 35, most guys assume losing their hair is inevitable as they age.

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So let's transition from the Jaguars and their outwe. to stock up and stock down. And let's start with the Texans. You wanted to mention the Texans here. They had a nice win today. How are you feeling about the Texans three games into the season? Well, I mean, we're pretty down on the Texans because we think that their 2019 outlook improved with the tons will trade and that they are the clear favorites in the division.

We don't think, however, it was very smart for them to go all in in a season where there's two real clear cut AFC contenders that they are not going to match in New England. in a Kansas City. Having said that, if we're just looking at them ticking off the boxes, we sort of have to praise them going on the road and playing Los Angeles and winning this sort of game. I was impressed. I saw a fiery Bill O'Brien. I don't know if you see a fiery Bill O'Brien postgame locker room. He looked great. He's the leader of men. Deshawn Watson, it was his first career games from the NFL with 300 passing yards, three past touchdowns, and no interceptions. You know, look, this is this is the team we thought they were.

This is the team that wins a division. This is still not a team that beats the chiefs for the Patriots in the, in the playoffs. But these are the types of games you need to win. The Texans are so interesting to me because I feel like even for the last few years, this has been true. Essentially since Watson got there. Sometimes we oversimplify how much star players eventually kind of dictate the outcomes for teams. Yeah. But with Houston, they really are buoyed and kind of carried by a couple guys on other side of the ball.

Like Watson today was Deshaun Watson. There were some kind of, you know, plays that you don't like to see, whether he's trying to improvise too much. He's trying to do too much, everything else. But then he's brilliant in other moments. And on the other side of the ball, they have a couple guys that can still dominate a game. what was a monster today? It's just, it's so interesting to me that I feel like every once in a while, we overstate how much football was kind of like a two on two, three on three game on

other side of the ball. And with Houston, I feel like that's pretty much been their team in the Bill O'Brien era. And when it goes well, it can be really impressive. And I think today was a perfect example. Watt, two sacks, DJ Reader, a sack and a half. it was just it was it was a nice win 2720 um philip rivers did did his philip rivers had time to win the game thing that didn't didn't exactly work out um as it typically does not so i just think that it was uh it was a heck of a time did you see the report that um there's friction between the chargers and the rams in los angeles in what sense in the sense that the chargers aren't picking up their share and that their rams might be a little bit mad about that on a scale of one to 10, how shocked are you about that? I am, I'm not sure.

I actually thought this had been reported already. Because I heard so much about it. I'd heard so much about it that I just had assumed it had been reported already. And it was my bad for assuming. Rumblings had been reported about it, but not to this extent. Fred Rogan's from one of the local channels said he's got a report coming tomorrow about this. So one of the cheapest teams in the NFL isn't carrying their side of a bargain. Well, no, not only that, but they, you know, they play in a like a 28,000 seat soccer stadium.

Anyway, that's not important. What's important is that is that the Houston Texans look like the team we thought they were. AFC South champions, all that. Yeah, I feel like it's going to, you know, the Colts are, I feel like the Colts are a little bit better than I thought they'd be. I like the Colts today. Listen, the Colts are an Adam Venetary away from being three and O. Yeah, they're a solid team. You know, I feel like they're going to be in every single game.

But I do, it's not that off from what I thought coming into the year where I thought the Colts roster was strong enough to kind of keep them going in the AFC. But I just think that what Watson and the high end talent on the Texans can give them week to week makes them more dangerous in terms of their ceiling. Is that fair? Yeah, listen, Brescent at 300 yards. coming into training camp pick the Colts to go to the Super Bowl. There's a reason I did that. They didn't have, the only of the Darius Leonard today, I saw, aside from the injury, I know they didn't because I saw him at home posting videos himself in full uniform,

which was something that I haven't seen before. Anyway, you know, look, they have the roster talent. And, you know, if Brissette is an above average quarterback, which is like he is, then they're a playoff team. That's a pretty easy thing for me. I was impressed at the Falcons. I'm less impressed by Matt Ryan. I mean, what's got into Matt Ryan?

I mean, just like some real bad throws. So we'll get to this. I feel like the tech. Are you challenging flagging yet? That's my challenge flag is the Texan. I didn't know that. It's the Falcons. I feel like they're in real trouble.

I agree. So we'll get to. We'll get to that a little bit later. We'll get there. We'll get to some NFC South challenge flags later. Let's talk about a couple more stocks up. You want to talk about the bills. I feel like the bills are 3 and 0. I don't. Careful. Their schedule gets really difficult. Well, they have the Patriots next week. So they have the Patriots next week and then they also have

a run after that. It's much different than what they've had over the first three weeks. I think this could be a mirage, but part of me thinks that, I don't know, we've talked. We've talked so. much about how we like the way they built this team. Josh Allen is still maddening in terms of inconsistency, but he's been better than he was last year. I don't know what to make of this team. I'm excited about them in the long term, but I don't know if they're actually good. So first of all, Josh Allen leads a 78 yard game winning drive.

Great stuff from Josh Allen. Speaking of quarterbacks, it almost reminds me a little bit of, and this is a team-wide thing. I'm not comparing Josh Allen and Daniel Jones. Although there are some comparisons as far as the high drafts, selection and just, you know, the media's reaction to it and our reaction to it. I definitely think they're, yes. I think they're in the same conversation. But I almost see this three and oh start as sort of the Daniel Jones of Buffalo in a sense

that like I don't care if it's real or not. It's just fun and everyone should enjoy themselves. Everyone in Buffalo should enjoy themselves and do do Buffalo things because this is great. I don't think the schedule. What? Are you going to go? go door to door telling them they can't have fun? No, it's not that because I think that I understand what you're saying.

And I get that. I think that's fair to a degree. But I also think that we're in year two of a top 10 quarterback. And it's it's not just do you have a couple moments here or there? It's is this team real moving forward? Because you only have two more years of this guy. But I don't understand. I don't like I don't understand why we can't think he's,

real right now. I mean, I will find out when he plays the Patriots next week. I actually don't agree with you that the schedule gets that hard because you have Patriots Titans, fine, dolphins tanking, Eagles, who the hell knows what's going on there. Jesus Christ. Yeah. Unintentionally tanking.

Browns apparently unintentionally tanking. You know, I just... I think I'm overstating that the Patriots part next week. Hold on. Broncos and then we have the Cowboys. It gets a little harder come Thanksgiving with Cowboys Raven Stewart. This is a type of team that all of a sudden you look up in October and they're, you know,

they're two games up in the wild card somehow. Like this. Yeah, that is an easy, easy, easy schedule going for it. And then all you need to do is steal a couple of those at the end. They still play the Jets on December 29.

That's a W. I mean, like, this is a team that has all the markings of like the team that made the playoffs a couple years ago in Buffalo where all of a sudden you look up and they're a playoff team and you had no idea how it happened. I feel like if you're trying to build kind of the, the rosy case about the bills,

it would be the defense is so good. I mean, they shut out the Bengals for almost that entire game today. And then the Bengals managed to get some. When did the Bengals score? Let me look at this. Well, the Bengals had a nice little comeback. Bengals almost won the game.

So, like, they shut the Bengals out through halftime, right? I mean, this defense is really good. So I think if you're building the case for the bills, it would be that the defense is so good that you can kind of sustain with a quarterback who's a little bit inconsistent and just has scattered moments because that's the roster construction. And I think that's fair. I think that is definitely kind of the calculus of how this team can go 10 and 6

and get a wild card. I think I'm buying bill stock. I've been buying bill stock in terms of how they've built this team. I just didn't know how quickly it could have. No, I've been talking about them to the draft. I'm in on this team. I think they can steal playoff spot, absolutely. Not a lot of good teams in the AFC.

Even the good teams in the AFC are not good, except the damn Patriots. All right. Let's do another stock up. Let's talk about the Chiefs. I don't think there's a ton to say here. I think that they, we've talked so much about the Patriots and how good the Patriots have looked and how good that roster is. And both you and I pick the Chiefs to go to the Super Bowl.

and I just think the way that they can kind of casually dispatch a team like Baltimore I know the final score was close and that near the end the Ravens were in it but there are just so many moments where this Chief's team

walks over defenses that are supposed to be good and I think today was another example of that I agree by the way the Patriots haven't given up a touchdown didn't give up a touchdown today and just have stopped giving up

touchdowns and they have not given up and they have not given up a point in the first half going back to the AFC change of game. Anyway, I agree with you. I think that this is that that chief's game is pretty much how we expected to go. I didn't learn a whole lot. I still think that they're, I don't know.

I mean, the top two in the AFC change positions every week in my mind, even though neither of them do anything wrong. In fact, they just dominate every single week. So I saw what I needed to see out of the chiefs today. I think that the Ravens, they did a nice job. I think I kind of, I liked Lamar in that situation. I liked some of his runs. He was taking some big hits early on.

But I think that I, that game went almost exactly as I expected to. Yeah, I feel the same way. And I also think that watching that Chiefs game today, I don't feel any necessarily worse about the Ravens. I think that Lamar left some throws on the field. I came away from that game feeling the exact similar. both teams I felt going into it. Yeah.

I think I'm a lot of time on it. Yep. We're on the exact same page. So let's, with that in mind, let's get to one more stock up. Let's talk about the 49ers because, I mean, the 49ers are 3.0. Yeah. So the thing that encourages me about the 49ers is that this is a team that we always kind of felt like their offense would be fine if they were healthy, right?

I have all the faith in the world in Kyle Shanahan. We saw what he could do with Nick. Mullins last year. The question to me was about their defense. And seeing kind of a couple guys on that unit, the younger guys, play as well as they have, has changed to me what the outlook for the 49ers is. Nick Bosa had a great day today. Akella Weatherspoon is having the season this year that I expected him to have last year. And I feel like if you can start putting those together on top of how consistently productive the offense is just by virtue of the schematics, I think that this team has a real chance to be in that wild card conversation in the NFC. Okay, well, let me ask you a question

here. You saw what the Rams look like tonight. You've seen what the Cocks have looked like. Are they just a wildcard team in your opinion? Or is there a chance of them to compete for the division? How would you, how would you do it right now? If you were kind of doing the pecking order right now, I would still say the Rams are well. I would still say the Rams because the Rams have a lot of roster talent and are three and no. If the Rams were two and one right now are one and two, that changes the math for me, but the good teams who start out three and oh, even if it's uninspiring, I feel this way about the Packers, for instance. Like, they're, the Rams have beaten the Panthers, the Saints, and the Browns. Like, that's, those are three

nice wins. I am in agreement with you. That's why I'm saying they're going to win the division. I'm just saying that, you know, they haven't exactly blown nobody's doors off. And I don't think Sunday night's going to inject a lot of enthusiasm and everybody about the Rams. I think that, you know, this is something we talked about when we were all together in Atlantic City last week is I think we've oddly all moved on from the Rams because we saw what they like in the Super Bowl. They didn't, you know, they spent the last two years, you know, adding superstars and they just stopped doing that this year because they, they had the team they want. And obviously the salary cap money goes away once start paying golf. but I think that they are still, you know, top two, top three team in the NFC. And I think that's how we should treat it.

I think that the, again, if they dropped one early and all of a sudden, 49ers are three and I think we have a different equation here. I threw out that question to you just to see how high you were on the 49ers. I still agree the Rams win that division. The 49ers and the Seahawks are left to scrap for a wild card. Yeah, I think that's fair. So let's get to the Sunday night game and let's talk about the Rams. for stock down here.

I think that I don't necessarily feel worse about the Rams than I did at the start of the season. I think that I had kind of its hepen enthusiasm about their ceiling just based on kind of the offensive struggles they had at the end of last season. I feel like they're just leaning on their defense in a way they didn't in the first couple years at the McVeigh era, but the defense is good enough where that seems like it might be doable. They don't look as explosive or as dynamic. as they used to.

But I still feel like this is a really dangerous team based on the talent they have. The roster talent that they have on defense gives them a chance as their offense kind of figures this out. Hey, feeling about the quarterback. Not good. I think both quarterbacks in this game, coming into the year, you know, you could have had a certain level of expectation for each.

And it's been disappointing on both fronts. Golf's been somewhat disappointing. And I think that Mayfield has been really disappointing so far. Did you see the stat from the NFL, the next-gen stat about Mayfield outside the tackle box? I did not. One for 10, 0.0 pass a rating, 1 interception, 19 yards. So I asked Freddie Kitchens this before the season started. It was, you know, early August, I was there a training camp.

And I went back and I watched, you know, pretty much every single big play that the Browns had last season. And a lot of them were late in the down. extended plays by Mayfield. Right. And I asked him, I said, it was not working anymore. I was like, do you, are you comfortable with how much you guys leaned on that type of play last year?

Or do you want more of your bigger plays to come within the rhythm of the offense? And he said, I'm comfortable with it because I don't want to coach that out of my quarterback. I want him to be that type of player. And when I was kind of building the case against the Brown, on offense. The two things that I was concerned

about was one, the offensive line, which I think has come to fruition. And two, how often they relied on those sort of secondary late in the down big plays last year

because I think those are hard to replicate. And I feel like they've had a really difficult time hitting those this year and they have not played on schedule within their offense. And I think that's part

of the problem that we've seen so far. I mean, throwing off his back foot, he just looked helpless. I mean, this was not the improv master that we saw last year. I was surprised by that. I think he got some happy feedback there. I think the line is just getting to him.

That's something we've been talking about for months. Just sort of the tradeoff they made where they, you know, all of a sudden you're trading, you know, one of your best linemen for Olivier Vernon. I get why you do that, but then you lose one of your best linemen. So I just, I think they'll figure it out. I think they'll make the playoffs. But right now, this is something that we anticipated as far as,

you know, training camp is sort of fake now, especially with the new coach and a guy who's never been a head coach before and all of a sudden you have a bunch of new faces. I, I'm not surprised at all. It's a bit lethargic right now. So let's get to the other team that, you know, you and I were both very excited about coming into the season.

We thought they were the best team in the NFL in terms of roster construction. The Philadelphia Eagles lost again today. When do you start getting really worried about the Eagles? So I'm not, I'm not really worried. I'm worried. They have injury problems all over the place right now.

They, you know, I saw Les Bone made a good point. Just basically that, you know, Wenz is two dropped passes away from looking like a miracle worker the last two weeks. Yeah.

And also being without Deshawn and, uh, Alshan Jeffrey today. And, and, and, and, and,

and, and, and then obviously, you've already had the injury to the D-line. So, I think that you just look at it in context, a couple of breaks here, and all of a sudden they've got two more wins the last two weeks. But I'm, again, all we think about is this depth and how they've stacked this roster and guys like Malik Jackson, who they've got for

$10 million a year, that's a steal. But you lose a Malik Jackson for the year. And the more you do that, the more you become a normal team. The number one thing, we sit around all the time. We talk about roster construction and schemes and all this stuff. And the one thing we don't, it's unknowable so we don't talk about it enough, the number one thing in this league is health. I know that sounds very talk radio or very, you know, bland or whatever,

but like it's true. That's what matters. If you build a team with an awesome roster and everybody gets hurt, you no longer have an awesome roster. The Eagles are a more normal team than I thought they were when I picked them the one in the Super Bowl. Can they still in the Super Bowl? Absolutely.

But they do not, I do not think, and I have to kind of rewrecked re-racked them in my brain, but I don't necessarily know if they still have the best roster in the NFL, given where their health is right now in week three. I feel like it's the perfect example of how they've kind of been battered and how you kind of, how injuries affect your roster is the situation with Peters today, right? Yep. So Peters is hurt. Andre Dillard comes in, or Peters is sick. He, like, wasn't supposed to play.

Andre Dillard comes in. He plays five snaps for getting hurt, and then Peters has to play. It's just, it's brutal. It's just one of those things where they have not caught a break. I still feel okay about them. And one of the reasons I feel okay about them is that I tweeted this early in the week after going back and watching the Lions Chargers game from last week. The Lions are okay, man. Yep.

Like this offense, I have a lot of faith in some of the concepts that they're leaning on. I still think the balance is off. I would not run the ball as much as they have in the beginning of the season. I still think that in a way, and I understand this makes sense because it's Terrell Bevel, this reminds me of some of the problems that the Seahawks have had, right? Yeah. It's, there are some aspects to the offense where it's like, oh, I like that. That's cool.

Like they should do like the depth of target, the play action. There's so many aspects of it where you're like, okay. Like, I can get with this. and then they're running the ball into an eight-man box on first and ten. So I feel like there are enough positive aspects to the offense now where you can get excited about it, but I still feel like the calibration is just a bit off. So what you're saying is they need to bring him Brian John Hummer to fix it all.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, just run it a little bit more. Yeah, no, listen, I've been pro lions. Obviously, did the big piece on Stafford a couple weeks ago. I still believe in his talent. I texted you this earlier, but just so the listener can sort of take it all in. How do you feel about Chibisky being the worst quarterback in the NFC North? I mean, it's not, I thought he was coming into the season.

So it's not surprising to me. The fact that the Bears might be the worst team in the NFC North is an entirely different story. Well, that's what I believe that's what I texted do as well. So anyway, that's a nightmare. I'm real excited to watch my team tomorrow. Looking forward to it. Is it bum you out that it's against the Redskins and there's just literally no way you can come away happy? Yes.

Because either they beat the Redskins and you're like, oh, my God. I didn't learn anything. If they win 30 to nothing tomorrow, I will be happy even if it's the Redskins. I think they have to put up more points than 30 actually. I actually didn't they have to like hang. I think they have to hang like 50 for you to feel good about that offense, right? No, 30 is enough. If they win 30, okay.

The lines have been drawn. 30 to 10. is. If they win 30 to nothing tomorrow, I'll be happy. I don't think they win 30 to nothing. But if they do, then I'll be very happy. We might have to, we have to emergency pod if they lose. Emergency pod.

You'll have to replace me on the show if they lose. We'll bring in high fits. Just for the rest of time. I retire from football commentary if they lose tomorrow. Three man we with Kelly and high fits. All right. Let's get to the challenge flags. Why don't you start us off?

Well, one of the things that I wish you could do. more easily on podcast to just do really deep size and have like 20 seconds of dead air we just have a drop for it Craig just me sign dead air i'm sure i've done it before dead air wow um bruce arians so bruce arians over thought close what to it to a to a too long dead air was pretty close yeah well so the the the giant's supposed to lose this game. They were, they gave up a huge play at the end, hit Mike Evans, 44 yard pass, down to the nine yard line, 30 seconds left. Game over. Time to kick the field goal, all that. Ball is spiked. The Bucks, I got to, I got to collect myself before I recount what happened next.

The Bucks took a delay of game penalty, then lost two yards on a play to center of the ball. So we've lost seven yards already because the field goal kicker is better from further away. So yeah, by the way, if you didn't know what happened, he wasn't better from far away. No field goal kickers are. Matt Gay is his name. He'd already missed two extra points. I believe he's a rookie. So I don't know how this got in Bruce Ariens' head. I don't know. I don't know if there's any data to support this. But I'm, I believe the challenge flag was invented for this sort of thing. Just completely off the wall coaching nonsense in which you move a kicker seven yards back for no reason.

I just, every single bit like thing about that line of thinking confuses me. It hurts my brain. I just, I don't even have any deeper analysis on this. Yeah, like, what is there to say? It's goodness gracious. You know what happens? This is what happens when you don't go in the quarterback meeting rooms. You just have time to think about this kind of stuff.

Like, what's Bruce Aaron's doing with his day? Now that he's not coaching quarterbacks, he's coming up with special teams. He was watching more opponents and doing more personnel. Great. That's what he said to me. He's doing more.

He's finding out that the kicker likes being seven yards back. Apparently so. Congratulations. All right. Let's stay in the NFC South. Okay. The Falcons came back today. They scored 14 points in the fourth quarter.

They made it a game at the end. For the most part, though, they were getting beat up by the Colts for most of this game. They were down 20 to 3 at halftime. Here's the question I posed to you. What are the Falcons good at? Well, last year they were good at offensive efficiency. Correct.

Their defense was just nightmarishly unhealthy to the point that if they were just average this year, they would have made the playoffs. And now they seem to not be good at offensive efficiency. I feel like hiring Dirk Cutter is the answer to a question no one is asking. And that was my concern going into the year about their office. Hey, when was the last time Dirk Cutter was a good hire for anybody? That's just going to, I mean like college program, the whole deal.

Like the Jaguars hired him for a little bit. Obviously the Bucks when they hired him. Like when was the last time Dirk Cutter. want a press conference. They've been so, I think the decisions they've kind of systematically made on that front have been so risk-averse. And going with Dirk Cutter this year,

as opposed to somebody that, let's say Kellen Moore, right? Like, for example, somebody that had never gotten a chance before came in and has been spectacular. The retread of Dirk Cutter as they've tried to kind of go back into the bag of tricks with their coaching staff is just so unimaginative to me. And they're fine.

And Matt Ryan average almost nine yards per time today. Like, their offense isn't bad. But considering how good they've been in stretches for the last two years, it's just disappointing to see them be this uneven. On the other side of the ball, I said this to you when we were talking about who was going to win that division before the year. and we were talking about the health of the Falcons defense.

And if they get healthy, maybe they'll be better. But even when they've been healthy, they've been bad. And things are not getting any better. I know they lost Keanu Neal today. Whatever. They are not a good defense. And if you're not going to be a spectacular, high-flying offense, which they were at times last season,

you can't be an actively bad defense and hope to compete, even in an NFC South where everyone is reeling. Yep. I thought this offense would be better. Maybe they still will be. Maybe it's kind of the part of the trend where everything in September is fake. I don't know, but I'm seeing some weird throws. And I also want to announce that I think Dirk Cutter was a good hire for Arizona State in 2001. Thanks.

I'm glad we have that on the record. I'm just going back. I'm now, I'm somehow on the Insight Bowl, 2005 Insight Bowl, Wikipedia page. That's a weird place to be. I was on 2014. for Sun Bowl, he beat Kyle Orton. So it's a big W. If the Falcons goes 6 and 10,

how do we feel about Dan Quinn's future? So that's a good question. So he's a defensive coordinator now. And I kind of feel like that's the last step on like that I can fix this train. Because now there's nowhere to pass the buck now. Right.

And if this goes poorly, fix it squarely on him. I think you look at it. I think you look at it. I think you try to figure out who's out there. I think that you, I mean, it's really hard. I think that the hiring cycle now

where there's just seven openings a year and they all go to offensive head coaches except in Miami, I think that, I think there's a weird, real, and they're going younger and younger. There's a real question about the sort of bench depth that there is in the coaching ranks right now.

Do you go to college? Yep. try to throw all the money you can at Lincoln Riley, something like that. Matt Campbell at Iowa State, who I think a lot of people have been impressed on both sides of the ball with him. That's why he was one of the Jets candidates last year. Maybe he's a guy you look at. There's just a lot of, you know, hell, Gary Patterson keeps getting touted as this guy who can stop the spread bringing Gary Patterson if you want a defensive coach. I don't know. I mean, there's just, there's a lot of, you know, Thomas Mitrov's a creative guy,

Arthur Blank's a good, a good owner. I just think that they can, if, listen, this is all speculative. If they had to go somewhere, I think you have to just make sure you know that there's enough depth

in the candidate pool before you start going there. Because you can easily, listen, man, you can easily end up with a real limit of a coach if you go into one of these cycles where there's seven openings. You really can. And at some point,

Dan Quinn becomes a better coach than what you can get. Yep. I think that that's all true. I still feel like if they kind of, if they underachieve this year and if it's disappointing, I think it's going to start to be a conversation sooner rather than later. Oh, for sure. For sure. All right.

Let's get to next week's headlines. I mean, I feel like there's only one way to go here. And that's with Mr. Jones, in New York. Mr. Jones. I mean,

it's, it's going to be what we talk about. I think it's silly, but it's going to be what we talk about. Yes. We're going to talk about it. The difference with Jones, as opposed to some of these other ones

is that there was never really much of a chance Eli was going to get his job back unless Jones is either a disaster or injury. I think there's probably more of a quarterback, I don't want to say it's a controversy, but more of a quarterback conversation in a place like Carolina where it's more hypotheticals.

But I'm ready for the Jones hype. I'm ready for Daniel Jones to just dunk all over everybody for a couple of weeks. This is going to be really, really fun. And I am, again, I'm glad that we're all in the same, boat here where we all get dunked on. Now they have the white they have the redskins next week which is really easy for

the hype train and then they have the Vikings and then the then the Patriots. I will be watching New York Giants games. Are you going to watch them against the Redskins next week? It'll be on. I'll be curious. I'll have it on one of the TVs. I won't be thrilled about it. But when they play the Patriots in a couple weeks, it will definitely have a

Thursday night. It'll have it'll have prime. position. Well, you can watch it because you won't be busy watching any Cubs games. Jesus Christ. Thank you. I appreciate that. That's a low blow. It is. I had no idea what they were doing until I saw that they were eliminated from the divisional race the other day on Twitter. All right. That's all we got. We will be back on Thursday previewing week four. For now, as always, guys, thank you so much for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer podcast network. We'll talk to you later.

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