The Ringer NFL Show - Unpacking the Commanders Drama, Jawaan Taylor vs. Nick Bosa, and More Big Takeaways from Super Bowl LVIII Radio Row | Extra Point Taken

Episode Date: February 7, 2024

Sheil and Ben get together on Super Bowl LVIII Radio Row and start their conversation by diving into the current and complicated state of the Washington Commanders. After Sheil weighs in on the Steelers' hiring of Arthur Smith as their new OC, Ben predicts that a running back will be the next Super Bowl MVP (19:49). They then analyze the matchup between the Chiefs offensive line and San Francisco’s edge rushers, and debate the importance of the big game for Kyle Shanahan (36:32). Sheil ends the pod with some advice for the Cowboys on their future DC (54:50). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out theringer.com/RG to find out more, or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Ben Solak and Sheil Kapadia Associate Producer: Chris Sutton Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal and Conor Nevins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, this is Jason Gough from the full go podcast. Me and the crew, we like to entertain you. And we're going to do more of that this football season because the bears should be more intriguing. They should be more fascination. Justin Fields. Is this the make or break gear? Is DJ Moore the piece that's going to put them over the top?

You can catch us on Sundays, Tuesdays, and Thursdays, or when we have an emergency podcast when we have breaking news. Make sure you follow the full go on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to Extra Point Take and Chiokipatia. by Ben Silak in person. The man is sitting right across from me at Radio Row at the Super Bowl in Vegas. Benny Soles, how are we doing? Yeah, the first ever in-person extra point taken, we realized.

A lot of in-person Philly specials when the Eagles were here last year. No in-person extra point taken. Here we are. The energy is very different. There's, you know, all the people are doing interviews all over the place. I'm looking at you. Again, that's weird, but it would be nice, you know? I feel like it's going to be a lot more easy for you to catch me now

when I'm just on my computer scrolling through social media. Oh, no, I can always, I'm like batting, you know, a thousand. The amount of times that you accuse me of it, and I'm actually like prepping my next take and like pulling articles up. Nope, every time. I don't believe that at all. We've also got, I mean, Christopher Sutton, Arjuna Ramgapal, all the names you hear on the world sitting at a table together. Amazing. All right.

So we're not doing just a Super Bowl only show. We're doing our regular early week show. We've each got the three takes. They could be Super Bowl related. They don't have to be Super Bowl related, and we will go around the league looking at what's happening. All right, Benjamin, I am up first. My first take. I think the commanders could have done better than Cliff Kingsbury.

Yeah. Benjamin. I mean, I don't like, I don't know if Cliff Kingsbury just has the best like PR machine in the world working for him or what, but someone like the explanations I've heard for why he's a great candidate, why he's going to be awesome for the commanders. I think we need a little bit of a reality check. Okay, so let's have that reality check here. Cliff Kingsbury in Arizona, the end was very, very, very bad. Real rough.

I mean, you couldn't get through a possession without him and Kyler Murray yelling at each other. I remember that season. The Cardinals ranked 27th in DVOA. This was just 2022. Ben, this wasn't like, you know, 2018, and he had a hiatus, and he traveled around and spoke to offensive coaches and read Bill Walsh's books and now he's ready to just come

and take the league by storm. This was two years ago in the one year he had in between he was at USC as I believe it was a senior offensive analyst. What was the title? Caleb friend.

Caleb friend. Yes, that was an official title. Yeah, so this is the connection that everyone's making. Cliff Kingsbury goes to Washington. They draft Caleb Williams. Caleb Williams was a nothing until Kingsbury got his hands on it.

you know, you bring that connection to the NFL. Oh my gosh, this is not what happened. I mean, you are the draft expert. I am a college football fan by my eyes, by my estimation. Caleb Williams was objectively better in 2022 than 2022. Is that accurate? It's very accurate. Would there be anyone who would disagree with that?

No, not at all. No one. Okay. So the one year Kingsbury was working, and it doesn't mean that Kingsbury was responsible for Caleb Williams not playing well, but he certainly didn't enhance or improve or do anything. anything that made you think, wow, Caleb Williams really built on his game. So I am just hard pressed to come up with a reason why if you scoured the entire earth and

look for who is the best offensive coordinator, we have the number two pick in the draft, we need someone who can groom quarterbacks, bring in a system. You know, it's just good. We have a defensive-minded head coach. You're really handing the keys to this person. I'm struggling to find a reason how that person could be Cliff Kingsbury. I'm not telling you he's going to like stink or they're going to be last and he's going to be like he could be good. Maybe he did evolve. Maybe he did improve, but I just don't totally

see it. Are you with me? Are you not with me? What do you think? I'm very much with you. My shout-out to Charles McDonald who's with Yahoo is a Falcons fan. And when the report came out that Dan Quinn was interested in Cliff Kingsbury and Cliff said no to the Raiders and then like 10 minutes later was like, oh, he's a leaning candidate in Washington. Chuck would told me he was like, yes, 100% because Cliff killed Dan Quinn when they played. And so Dan Quinn, he was coaching. Coaching, I think it was the Falcons defense at the time. It was back then.

It might have been the Cowboys. I can't recall. But he was coaching against the Cardinals. And the Cardinals just did it air raid against cover three, right? Like, it was just modernity versus tradition, right? It was innovation versus fossilization. Like it was just, they got dunked on by Cliff. And so Dan Quinn at the press conference when he introduced Cliff was like, his offense, man,

real tough to defend. Right. It's real challenging. Yeah. Dan, like four years ago, man, when you didn't know. know what it was, but that's a lot of times coaches have that kind of, they have memories of guys who really dunked on them and that sticks, that hangs. So you tell them like, oh, you know, Cliff Kingsbury's offense was so bad down the stretch. And they go, yeah, well, the one time I played

him, he was really good. And I'm a good defensive coach. So if he got me, he can get everybody else. Like, no, dude, like, it's not, it doesn't really work like that. I, you brought up the, the, uh, the Kyler Murray frustrations at the end of the cliff run. I remember the DeAndre Hopkins, you remember these? Yeah. Right? It was just to be Downer Hopkins, 99% of the time left receiver running a vertical route, running a comeback, and running an outbreaking route. And that was it. Like, he, he didn't, if the field is 53 and a, and a third yards long, he didn't touch yard 10 to yard 53 went and a third. Just everything was just within 10 yards at the left sideline. This is DeAndre Hopkins,

right, who like, they objectively nail a good trade, good player, good value. Like, this was supposed to be the cornerstone of the team that's built around. You're bringing an air raid coach. We're going to throw the football and you can't find a dynamic way to use Deandre Hopkins, right? Like, it was just, that's the memory that took to my head of that era. It's just like, he was brought in to be creative and they ended up at a place of complete like stagnation. Like they were, they were doing nothing. They were being so basic. And so yeah, he spends a, minute in USC and now he's here in Washington. I think the Caleb Williams of it all is extremely real. I think that Caleb is from D.C., Caleb is tight with Cliff. Like, that was a known

thing when Caleb was there at USC. Like, I strongly believe in the foretellings on the horizon that Washington is really trying to land Caleb, however they end up doing that, right? Caleb refuses to go play for the Bears and there's a Kobe trade. You know, they trade up to one, whatever happens. I don't know. To me, like, that's how this reads. Because if you were going for offensive innovator and you interviewed Chip Kelly, who actually has done that, and then Cliff Kingsbury, who's just been around when other people have done it, like, that doesn't make sense to me at all. But Kingsper is not going to be a deal breaker about whether Caleb Williams wants to play for Washington or not. I don't think he's the deal breaker. I don't think...

What was this one year together like, Ben Solac? I mean, my gosh. Now, I have a fear of commitment. I need a long time before I'm jumping into what did they do? It wasn't even a full year. I mean, a full year? They got this tight? Did they know each other beforehand? I don't know. Raiders, uh,

Raiders were going to have Cliff, right? And then they lost Cliff for Luke Getzy, the old Bears OC. You know how, you know who knows Luke Getzi well? Devonte Adams. Known from a couple years together in Green Bay. This John matters to players, man. It does. Like when a key offensive player has a coach that he really likes, Nate Hackett, Aaron Rogers, that coach ends up places, right?

He ends up in buildings doing a job, apparently, somehow bringing some sort of value to the organization implied or otherwise. Yeah, I don't know why Cliff and Caleb are super tight. Maybe, you know, recruiting trail, you know, when Cliff was head coach at Texas Tech and he in touch with Caleb, maybe quarterback camps, sort of these guys interface all the time. But when a player likes a coach, man, that coach can float on that for a long time.

And if you're the commanders, like that really should, it's like, it's one thing if this guy brought out the best in the player or was able to develop, like, again, that is not the case here. That's not what was happening. So I don't know about this commanders. Like the commanders offseason is great if you're a commander's fan because you don't have Dan Snyder anymore. I said last week, like the Dan Quinn obviously was not their first second or third choice. It might not have been their fourth choice. There was an athletic article that said like they reached out to Bill Belichick the night before. Or they had conversation. about Bill Belichick the night before. I still, I think Quinn is a fine, quote, unquote, retread candidate. I think he could be good. But I just worry about what they're doing on the offensive side of the ball and whether it's going to work. Again, I could be wrong,

but that's how I feel about it right now. I agree on your Quinn assessment. Actually brings me into my first take. All right, give it to him. Which is that this commander's Ben Johnson drama looks way worse for the commanders and it does for Ben Johnson. So we talked about this a little bit.

Wait, so our first two takes are just kind of crushing the commanders. Maybe we should chat. I texted you and I said I was doing a Ben Johnson day. I didn't know it was going to be Ben Johnson. Here's why the commanders. We should clown the commanders, but I want to hear it now. I'm in. Listen.

What else was going on? I was going on it. I'm in on it. I'm in on it. I'm not complaining. For those who didn't follow it, right, Ben Johnson lost the NFC championship game to the Niners on a Sunday. The ensuing Monday, the commanders are flying out to Detroit,

per reports, to interview Ben Johnson and Aaron Glenn. Johnson's the O.C. Alliance. Glenn's the DC Alliance. They're heading out to Detroit interview them both. And then, but, uh, report a couple hours later, Ben Johnson has withdrawn his name from consideration of the commander's coaching search. He's informed the commanders. He's not going there. I think another team sold an opening at the time. He informed them. He wasn't going there. He's staying with the lions. Like, wow, Ben Johnson's staying again year two of Ben Johnson staying, how incredible. And then the detail started to come out. The commander's plane was in the air to Detroit when Ben Johnson informed them.

even get the text for Ben Johnson, get the call because they had no signal. They saw it on Twitter on the plane Wi-Fi. Oh, Ben Johnson has withdrawn his name. They didn't actually get him withdrawing the name. They just saw it on Twitter. The report came from Adam Schafter. Oh, Ben Johnson's asking price was a big, uh, which was why like the commanders was a big thing for the commanders. And then that report vanished because the commanders realized it made them look poor. Like it's just not good. Like it was just generally a, a mess of leaks about how Ben Johnson got this information to Washington. Meanwhile, Washington was like, all right, fine. Like, we're, we're done. We're not going to Detroit. Screw that. Nothing for Aaron Glenn, who apparently

we're going down to interview Ben Johnson and Aaron Glenn. And then the second, Ben Johnson withdraws his name, we're turning the plane around. What does it tell you today? What does it say to Aaron Glenn? Like, oh, we're just making it look nice to go talk to you also while you're there. So it sucks for Aaron Glenn. Side note, but still important note. Then Washington circles the wagons. They hired Dan Quinn. And then there's just been a string of reporting, right? Diana Racine and Ben standing of the athletic have a story today, how the commanders landed on Dan Quinn following an outrageous coaching search. And the presentation is very clear from the Washington side of things. Everybody thought Ben Johnson was a lock, but actually Ben Johnson never was a lock.

I'm going to read a quote, the gleefully ignorant voices were unaware or chose not to care that the consummation assumptions, I think consummate assumptions, came from an echo chamber of gossip rather than factual information. No, I'm pretty sure you guys wanted Ben Johnson. You were fly. blind to Detroit the day that he lost, the day that he became available to be hired. And when he took his name out and you were going, apparently, and if you're another guy,

you turn the plane around. Yeah, there are other nuggets in that article that do indicate what you're saying, that they did, yeah, want Ben Johnson. No, they, but in that article, right, they're trying to present, like, oh, like, we liked Ben Johnson,

but he was never like our, oh, he was never like a lot, it was never done. No, you guys wanted Ben Johnson, right? Like, you can try as hard as you like. That report came out for a long time. And say, oh, it was echo chambered. I certainly like, you know, like Ian Rappaport had a week before all this, like, oh, it's not a lock. I think that's, that's narrative management.

I think it's pretty clear that Ben Johnson was their primary target. Now, your primary target said no to you when you waited for the whole coaching search, right? You could have hired people wildcard weekend, divisional weekend. You didn't because he was still coaching. He was your primary target. You waited. And when you wait, you run the risk of not getting your guy and missing out another guys. So that stinks.

I understand that. You were in the air on the plane and Ben Johnson told you he didn't want to. be your coach. That really stinks. That sucks. I understand that. All that is well, good and true. Getting a head coach in Dan Quinn, having him hire at OC, make a higher at DC, he's at press conferences, he's announcing the team, he's ready, he's got great direction. And you're still making sure everybody knows that you're not, you're not beat up about Ben Johnson. You're not, no sour apples, no sour grace about Ben Johnson. Buddy, if you're over it, you're over it, You've been talking bad about your ex for three months.

Your ex has moved on, Tiger. Like, you got to move forward. You got to find somebody new. You guys are happy together. Progress, right? This is head coaching searches, man. You can be positive of the guys, the best candidate in the world. He's going to revolutionize the team.

You hire him, and it stinks, right? Like, this is a one step above a dice roll, one step above a complete and total roulette wheel spin. So you don't need to be doing this. Doing it is not getting you the narrative that you want. It's just making it, in my opinion, very clear that you feel sour by the fact that Ben Johnson said no to you, and you got sour grapes about that. I think it's a little bit of a tough look for a new ownership group. And I'm someone who likes to hold a grudge. I mean, I won't let anything go if you wrong me.

Yeah, you'll be hearing about it. What's your longest standing grudge? I mean, listen, I probably have a library in my head somewhere where we could do, oh, maybe we will do a whole other episode on that. But yeah, I respect a grudge. I like feeling wrong by someone and holding it against them for you. But move on. Why are you, why are you, this, the, the gut, Quinn has, like, given a press conference. I know.

Like, start planning what you're going to do now. Yeah, so they didn't get, they didn't get, uh, Mike McDonald was in that same, uh, article. It sounded like Mike McDonald was their second choice. I mentioned. Maybe they revisited Belichick internally a little bit. How does Dan Quinn feel? He's like, guys, second fiddle, dude.

He's like, I did get to a Super Bowl as a head coach. I did run some pretty good defenses in Dallas. It feels like they asked their friend. of the prom after their crush said no, right? Dan Quinn's just here being like, I'm happy to be here, we're going to get along, we're going to be good,

but like, it's very clear the crush was Ben Johnson. And Ben Johnson very publicly said no. And you know what else is nuts about this? This feels like there's a personal anecdote you're trying to share. No, I was two for two on prom days,

but don't you worry about a thing. All right, wow, okay. No, that's true. Yeah, that's true. I have to think of that much. Yeah, yeah. Another quote from the piece. It was just last year.

Right. Another, another quote from the piece, talking about Ben Johnson's text in the air. Whatever the theory, league sources, whether they cared about Washington's play or not, shared one unified sentiment. The commanders got screwed.

Outrageous, simply outrageous. So the league source familiar with the situation. That's not how you conduct business, how you ruin your reputation. Buddy, Josh McDaniels had a contract in front of him with the Indianapolis Colts and then walked away and then became the Raiders head coach three years later. Ruin your reputation.

Ben Johnson's going to get a head coaching job next year if he wants it. Ruin your reputation. This is the league. If you're a coach going to get a job, it's so melodramatic. It's very hoity-to-dy, like, this is the NFL.

We talk to people, these are not the finest citizens. These are not people on a moral high ground. I mean, calm the freak down. No one's ever changed their mind before. Ben Johnson almost took Jared golf

to a Super Bowl. His reputation's going to be sullied by objectively mismanaging and that was not good by Ben. Reputation will be solid. What are we doing? So if I wanted to, to be, you know, like a, a hater of the Washington commanders.

Like if you're on, let's say, a Cowboys message board, an Eagles message board, a Giants message board. I think if you're on a Commander's message board, like Commanders fans that I know objectively hate the team. Oh, is that true? Because they get all the good vibes from the ownership change. He was a huge commanders fan who just, like, Snyder just ruined his relationship with the team.

And so, like, he was very excited for Ben Johnson. And now he's, now he's devastated. But in general, like, they have a combative relationship, I would say, with the franchise. So here's the picture I could pick. Yeah. They embarked on this coaching search and this GM search and they hired Bob Myers, former NBA exec, and ended up hiring as GM, a guy who went to the same high school and the same college

as Bob Myers and new Bob Myers in the Bay Area in Adam Peters. And then for the coaching search, you just went over the whole thing. I don't need to go over it again. And then they hired Cliff Kingsbury as their OC. Now, guess what? You have the number two overall pick. Get quarterback right? None of it matters, right?

that's the position. And again, I think Dan Quinn could be good. I think Dan Quinn could be a very good head coach here in his second stop. I'm just saying if you were to in, people seem to really like Adam Peters. Maybe he'll be great. Although I do get annoyed, I will say this time of year, where we're just gassing up every GM and exec and coach. Like, just there is.

They're not all going to be good. There is no way from the outside to evaluate a GM in candidate. There just isn't, right? The quality of a GM alone, his impact on the, his draft classes and his free agent signings is already very tenuous. Now you want like the second or third guy in the chain and how he impacts it, right? Who's like, Howard Rosen, why he was the greatest gym ever. He almost like signed Alan Robinson in the year that because they didn't get Robinson and signed traded for AJ Brown. GMing is so tenuous. It's so much flips on

so few decisions that like unless you are meeting a guy, interviewing a guy, understanding his philosophy, how is going to go about stuff, how is he was going to manage his staff? You're on the outside being like, oh, well, the Niners are built well, so Adam Peters is good. No. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, It's a coin flip belief. There are no GM trees for a reason. Ron Wolfe, but the Ted Thompson, besides that, no gym. Commanders fans, we did not plan this. This is part of the show when you don't share your takes.

We've been known them for two years. We haven't had one quite like this. Our team gets crushed with the first day. But listen. They're the only news. Do you talk Shane Bowen? And again. Don't steal my off next day.

And again, just to be clear, Dan Quinn, Caleb Williams, or Drake May, you could have a beautiful setup here for the next several years. We're just looking at what we know at this point in time. All right, let's take a break. Come back with our second takes. Football fans, Fanduel has the perfect way for everyone to get in on the Super Bowl 58 action with a no sweat, same game parlay.

But when you bet on Super Bowl 58 on Fandul, one game can mean a lot of wins. America's number one sportsbook has all your favorite bets like the Money Line and the spread, plus all sorts of prop bets. Right now, I'm leaning chiefs with the spread. and I like some of the unders with the 49ers passing game. But listen, you can do whatever you want. That means when you combine all your bets for a chance at a bigger payday, you'll get bonus bets back if your SGP doesn't win.

So start building your own or just bet a popular SGP already made for you in America's number one sportsbook. Just visit fandul.com slash ringer NFL if you don't already have an account. Make every moment more with Fandul an official sportsbook partner of the NFL. must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit the ringer.com slash RG. Minimum three-leg parlay required. Refund issued as non-mithdrawable bonus bets, which expires seven days after receipt. Max refund $5 unless otherwise specified.

Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fandul.com. I was thinking about it. I think my longest held grudge as probably I didn't get valedictorian of my high school class and senior. because ninth grade algebra, Ms. Troy gave me a B. And that's probably my longest, my own side of grad, freshman high school.

She was retiring the next year. Why aren't you saying this on the pod? I am on the pod. Oh, okay. You tossed a break and then I gave a B and now I'm talking. We don't have to be silent for the entire ad, do we? I thought I was going to come back. I usually come back.

All right, so continue. All right, so we've been live the whole time. Keep this in. All right, please. Man, in person podcast and Sheila is bemused. Well, normally I like to stand also. I'm sitting. that's throwing me off. I usually stand, dude, you want to stand for this?

No, I don't. A doctor once told me that I'm turning into a chair. So since then, I just stand. Oh, wow. That's a poor. All right, sorry, go ahead. Mrs. Troy, I was retiring the next year, and she was kind of like chilling, and I was not, I was not super well-behaved in ninth grade algebra. I got, I got like a half off on a test, because I didn't write my name on the front. I wrote it on the back. I, uh, I would refuse to show my work because I was like, I know how to do fractions, dude, and then she would take points off. So I got a B. That's probably my longest held. If I saw Troy on the streets, I'd be like, dude.

You have nothing. She, what are you talking about? Show some accountability. We didn't follow the instruction. She gave you the grade you deserve. Show some accountability. Sorry. Not your fault.

Never mind. I'm not sharing any more of my grudges. Mrs. Troy, and thank you for listening. All right. Next take. And there's a more positive note here. I kind of like the Arthur move, the Smith move for the Steelers.

This is off type. You're supposed to be the one having this take. I was crushing Arthur Smith for a home here. I waffle on this. I'm just going to hear what you say. Some ways I like it, some ways I don't. I kind of like it. I'm not saying home run.

I think I kind of like it. So we remember last year with Arthur Smith. Disaster. Drafted skill position players, paid offensive linemen, put his faith in Desmond Ritter and the offense stunk. They couldn't even win the NFC South. That is bad. But, you know, mate, I like to zoom out.

I'm on the big sample guy. So Arthur Smith has been calling offenses for the last five years, Ben. And in three of those seasons, he has coordinated a top eight offense. Yeah. Like, I don't know that people realize how hard that is to do. People who listen to this pod

have to know. They know. Okay. I've been seeing Arthur Smith's praises now for as long as I have. I mean, you can do that when you have a Patrick Mahomes. You can do that when you have

Kyle Shanahan. Like, those are the teams that are consistently doing this. He had Ryan Tannahill and then he had Marcus Marioata and Taylor Heineke. I mean, that's pretty good. A top eight offense three times

with those as your quarterback. So if I'm looking at the Steelers, quarterback situation, uncertain. I'm sure we'll, you know, talk a little bit more about that. I have concerns. I have concerns about how the Falcons look last year. I have concerns about the Steelers quarterback situation. But they've got some offensive linemen. They've got running backs. They've got wide receivers. They've got a tight end. Like the cupboard is not bare there. And so if I'm the Steelers and I'm Mike Tomlin, I'm saying, who can I bring in to be a more with less? There you go. Everybody, you know, do whatever you're drinking game or whatever you do.

One of my buddies wants to make a drinking game for actual point again. He was telling me about it the other week. It should be done. It sounds amazing. Okay. Just be hammered men driving after an hour of listening to the body. I'll, I will be the one episode I've been listened to. So I can participate. None of the others. All right. So I think he has a history as being a more with less coach. And I think, you know, the head coaching thing didn't work out, but he was a good coordinator for Tennessee. And then we talked about this before. There seems to be a little bit more pressure on the Steelers to not just be nine and eight, to not just sneak it. Like, you actually want to do something.

You want to build something here. Art Rooney made some comments to that in that respect earlier this offseason. So they still have a lot to do. They still got to figure out quarterback. I know you threw out Kurt Cousins months ago. There's that. There's Justin Fields, whatever. I don't know what they're going to do at quarterback.

But I'm looking at the candidates they could have hired. And I feel like Arthur Smith makes a lot of sense for Pittsburgh. Yeah. Smith makes more quarterbacks viable than I think some other offensive coordinators that they talk to, right? They talk to Cliff. I don't think Cliff makes a lot of quarterbacks viable. That would have been just such a bad fit it feels like. Yeah. Now, the fit is what interests me, right? Because I would describe the Pittsburgh Steelers wide receiver room as willing to be willing to behave in a certain way so as to receive more targets or as to protest the amount of targets they are receiving and the quality of those targets. We got Deonté Johnson, who's like, you know, there's a fumble, and he's just loafing and walking around and not looking at the play. He's not blocking. We got George Pickens, who's not blocking for Jalen Warren, and they're not finishing routes, and then they get to the end zone,

and they throw their hands up in frustration, and they've been over and riding nobody throw the ball to me. Like, Pickens and Deonté both spent a lot of time this season being very visibly and vocally frustrated about the nature of the offense and the quality of the quarterbacking. The Arthur Smith offense in Atlanta was not renowned for getting the ball to its best past catchers, right? To put it lightly, yes.

Yes. Well, I wanted to put it that way because the fantasy community take a drink. They're probably all around here. You better watch what you said. And I've looked some of them in the eyes and in my head have been like,

you're unfair artists. The fantasy community would have you believe that like Bijon touched the ball nine times. Bejohn was like sixth in the league in total touches this year, right? Bax-wise, like they'll get those guys involved. But receivers-wise, it's a lot of like, it's a low pass rate team

and it's a high shot play team. And so the primary receiver just doesn't get the volume that typical primary receivers do. So I can see a world in which we're in week five and George Pickens has had more games with zero receptions than he's had with more than four receptions. And so it's tricky because like when you go to consider the contrapositive, like, oh, should the Steelers have hired an offensive coordinator

with the frustrations of George Pickens and Deonti Johnson in mind? Should they've hired a guy just to make them happy? The answer is probably no. that's not how you want to be running your search. But it is interesting to me that with Pickens being, I think, such a nice emerging young talent that they have, with Deonté being like a second contract guy who they really like, and with having all those issues they had getting them the ball last year,

they brought on a guy who, if you have a criticism of his offense, that he doesn't get the ball to his wide receivers enough. Now, again, big sample. Tennessee, A.J. Brown, they got that young man in the football, right? They had far less of an issue. And so what you're banking on is you're banking on Tomlin A, being able to manage Pickens and Deontay, which I think is a good bank.

I think that's a good bet. And B, you're betting on Smith as the office of coordinator and having to do less personnel management and team management and CEO stuff, putting him back in the offensive lab and saying, okay, one of the things that worked for you in Tennessee that got you the Atlanta job, but didn't work for you in Atlanta

and made you lose the job was you couldn't play where your bread was buttered. You couldn't feed the beast. You couldn't get the ball of your top receivers. You need to address that you need to get back to that. And I think if Smith can, I really like the way Smith calls offense. And that's why I waffle on it.

It's so much hinges here on Tomlin, Pickens and Deontay, Smith, and how that triumvirate kind of interfaces with one another. And yeah, as you were saying that, and the quarterback, I mean, if they are, like, it might not be Arthur Smith's fault that the wide receivers are not getting the ball enough. It might be his fault, but it might not be his fault.

So we have to see what they're going to do at quarterback. So maybe it'll be good for George Pickett's. Maybe it'll turn into some version of A.J. Brown with the Titans. But I just think with the candidates available, and the thing with Tomlin, like I know there's this argument that no, Tomlin wants to, play a certain way. Like there were Ben Roth. They were Steelers' offenses with Rothelsberger, where he was throwing the football like 600 times in a season if you go back.

Horrible. It was the worst offenses. No, they was 2010s. I think it was like 2014 or something. Oh, wow. Yeah, I think they were good. I assumed you were talking about right, the, no, not at the end. No, no, not the worst thing one could ever watch. We don't speak of that offense anymore. So I'm curious to see what the Steelers. I think they're sort of a fun under the radar. What are they going to do? Wow. Big 2023 summer. shield energy. Steelers, big under the radar team. Uh, I think it was I right about, wait, did the Steelers make the playoffs this year?

Yes, they did. Oh, they did. Okay, so I was right. There you go. Yeah, we watched Mason Bredo play a playoff game. It was Buffalo. It was going to be snowy and then it was because they did the later. So thank you. I know with the football plays. Thank you for calling out one of my correct takes from the summer of last season. We could have taken

the Steelers to the X point taking team of the year and still been right about the playoffs. We chose the Packers. We're still right about the playoffs, but the vibes. Tremendous. Totally different. Totally different. Totally different. Huge save.

All right, that was my second take. What do you got? What's your second take? The Super Bowl MVP, we're transitioning to Super Bowl. My next one's going to be on the Super Bowl. Good job. I mean, so we're not in sync on everything.

No, no, no, we're getting back in the pocket. The Super Bowl MVP will be the winning running back. That's what I'm predicting. Now, there has not been... I'll take that action. Yeah. There has not been a running back MVP in the Super Bowl since 1998. It was Terrell Davis.

All right. A young Ben Solac remembers it well. I was like 10 months old. you had Emmett Smith in 95, we haven't really seen one in the 2000s. I'll tell you why I like this. I think both teams are going to be very incentivized to run the football over the course of the game.

For the Chiefs, you want to shorten this game, right? You want to take the air out of this game. You've been a methodical offense. You've been an inch down the field sort of an offense. You don't want to be constantly giving Brock and the 49ers extra possessions to potentially hit four play, 75 yards, boom, catch a run, boom, points on you, points on you.

You don't want to be in a position, the Chiefs where you have to play from behind, right? You want to keep this thing in neutral or be ahead. That's where you've been better this year. On the 49er side of things, you do not want to get into third and long against Spags. You do not want to get into clear pass against the Spagnola defense. That's where they're much better. That's where the exotic pressure packages are going to come.

That's where Brock's going to be able to, I think, get moved off the spot and get flustered and deal with pressure a little bit. Which in this postseason, Brock's been a little bit keyed up in the pocket. He's been a little bit uncomfortable and a little bit antsy. And like, it's big games for a young player. That's going to happen. So I think both teams are incentivized to run the football. I also think both run defenses are bad, right? We've been covering this over the course of the entire season at this point,

and especially in the playoffs. Niners, 27th in rush defense, 27th by success rate, 28th by EPA, Chiefs 22nd by success rate, 24th by EPA, right? These are weak run defense. Both teams are much better in the past. So I think you're going to try to get the run established, right? You can settle the offense in, get a comfortable drive, get the Super Bowl nerves out, and then shorten the game.

and both defenses have a reason to be really worried about the opposing quarterback and the opposing passing game kind of just exploding. And so from a game script perspective, you want to shorten this thing and you want to run the ball. So I think it's a lot of Isaiah Pacheco volume, a lot of Christian McCaffrey volume. I think it's a lot of Isaiah Pacheco success. I think it's a lot of Christian McCaffrey's success. All I need now are a couple touchdowns, right? All I need now is McCaffrey two touchdown game. We're talking about 18 carries, 108 yards and two scores.

That's it, MVP caliber performance, if those are the points? What? Absolutely. You think of Isaiah Pacheco runs for 108 yards in the chiefs. He's been McCaffrey. Oh, sorry. Yeah. So McCaffrey, right?

There's a lot of stuff going on. It's very distracted. Yeah. So McCaffrey goes for 110 yards, goes for two scores. He's obviously going to catch some passes. He's been an integral part of their offense evolving. All you need is if McCaffrey's the big offensive performer, right? And it's just like a meh-brock game, which I think is very reasonable to see.

Like, I can see sacks. I can see picks going up against Spags. He's the best offensive performer. He's going to be the kind of your keystone there. On the other side of the ball, Pacheco is a little bit harder to get to, right? because you're going to just have Patrick Mahomes on the field. You're going to have Travis Kelsey on the field. It's potential, like, you know,

there's like Kelsey retirement narratives going around. Mahomes, obviously, like, last year was the MVP and the Super Bowl MVP. Travis Kelsey retirement narratives going around? I thought he said he wants to keep playing. I thought he put those to bed. You know a thing that a player often says before they retire? It's like, oh, I got one more year. Is that true?

I don't know. Regardless, Pacheco is a little bit harder to get to. I think it would have to be more like game winning touchdown run, game ceiling behavior. But, again, I think if you, if you ask me like, what one play? in this game that no one's expecting to go thermonuclear could. To me, it's Isaiah Pacheco.

Pacheco is playing so well down the stretch. He really is molding to one of the best, just pure between the tackles runner of the football that we've got in the league. So I'm very high on Pacheco. I can seem having a big game. So I'm betting on running backs, baby, for Super Bowl MVP. Give me this stat line where you realistically feel like

Isaiah Pacheco could win MVP. All right, so it is Chiefs win 2217. Isaiah Pacheco has 20 carries. 110. Two scores. He scores both touchdowns. I don't think that gets it done. Patrick Mahomes is going to.

Legerius Sneed? No, Patrick Mahomes will still win it in that scenario. Mahomes goes 21 for 28 for 184 yards, no scores, no picks. It's just not sexy enough. Gotta be sexier, she'll. Make it sexier. McCaffrey, I can easily get to. I think you're right.

I think, I mean, I'm not going to say if they win, he's going to win it. Bertie could win it. Debo could win it. I mean, they have a lot of guys who, Bosa, by the way, is another guy who could potentially. Defensive players is impossible to predict. I know. It's like a brandy Graham thing, right? Could, could, yeah.

So I can get there with McCaffrey pretty easily. I really have a hard time getting there with, it would almost have to be like the, even that scenario you lead out. Like, I don't know. I would probably still be, I don't vote, but I would still be voting for Mahomes. So who, like, who do you, like, so who's more likely for you, Mahomes for sure, but like you brought up Bosa, you brought it. If I say Pacheco or Rishi Rice, who's more likely to get it?

Checo or Rishie Rite. Well, I don't like taking any of the chiefs receivers because if they're going off, Mahomes is going on. Okay. I think that's a bad bet. Okay, so you'd say Pacheco? Over Rishir Rice? I guess so, reluctantly. Pacheko or Brandon Ayuk? Brannin I, Pacheco, George Kittle. Yeah, like, I don't burn your money on fire. So the, right, the reason I'm asking this is because Pacheco is sixth in MVP odds. He's third among all the Chiefs, right. Mahomes and Purdy are the favorites.

And then it's Christian McCaffrey at plus 440, which he's much closer to the favorites than everybody else is. Then it's Kelsey, Debo Samuel, and Isaiah Pacheco plus 3,500. Brandon is plus 5,000, which you rise, plus 6,000, George Kills plus 7,000. Okay. Your boy, Nick Bosa's plus 10, right? Not my boy.

Markets-wise. You just said, it's going to be Nick Bosa. My next take, it's kind of about Nick Bosa. Isaiah Pacheco is sportsbook-wise a lot more likely to win the award than those guys are. And it's because the rushing volume, especially in the low red zone, equals scores. And scores are going to be the thing that, that I think is the thing that typically decides the MVP.

I would say if you think the chiefs are going to win, just take Mahomes MVP odds. I know people say that every year. I think that's definitely true this year. On Fandall, Chiefs to win, money line is plus 110. Patrick Mahomes to an MVP is plus 140. I'm begging, no, no, no, mathematically. If you think, oh, Chiefs win,

then take plus 110 Chiefs win. Do not take plus 140 Mahomes MVP. That implies that, like, In 92% of the world's was the Chiefs win, Mahomes wins MVP. Isn't that true? No.

It's not 92%. No, absolutely not. There's other players on the field. I understand. He's going for, he's the best quarterback we've seen. Like, if they win, he's going to win MVP.

Okay, I'm pulling up. All right, I understand. Now, I'm not being denser. I understand there's a like a mathematical reason why that would not be wise to do. Yes. But in my head, it's wise to do. Cooper Cup in 22, one MVP, right?

Game winning touchdown. Julian Edelman in 2019, one MVP, Vaughn Miller in 2016. Malcolm Smith in 2014. Santonia Holmes in 2009. These guys played with the Patrick Mahomes. Edelman, it's a good one. Edelman, that's why I'm giving you credit for Edelman.

Okay, but I'm just saying when players make key plays in the game, they become more likely to win MVP than the quarterback who objectively did good things for four quarters, but didn't have like the big moment. Okay, but you just had last week on here a good take about how the 49ers defense is stinking up the joint. Yes. Yeah. So what are the odds? Patrick Maloms?

Is it going to have a good game? Okay. Firstly, the take was all about run defense. Like, it was 100% about run defense. Which is Isaiah Pacheco. Secondly, I gave the team about run defense and you were like, well, Ben, divio away, but just for an opponent, they're actually good. So you didn't even think it was a good take then.

You only think it's a good take now because they're trying to make a Mahomes for it. All right. If Isaiah Pacheco wins MVP, next year when we do this, I will wear an Isaiah Pacheco jersey backwards and I will give you an education lesson. about criss cross from my youth. Okay. Why backwards? Exactly.

Thank you. Everybody else knows what I'm like. Okay, so that was your second thing. All right, I'll take a break. We'll come back and Ben will tell us about his second least favorite teacher. All right, we're back on extra points. Now I'm having fun. My home room teacher when I was a senior was rough.

She was mad every time I showed up late. That was not good. Again, you're showing up late. What is she supposed to do? Teachers, don't worry. Including the teachers in the Solax family. Do you not try to position me as anti-teacher. Family of teachers.

Exactly. That's why I'm so confused. Mr. Thornton, excellent high school teacher. My calc teacher was great. I don't remember his name, but he was a man. Good times. That's nice. He really made an impact.

All right. All right. Third takes. I think the matchup, keeping. Do we know, Andy Reid's middle name? Walter. Andrew Walter. Walter Reed up at night is right tackle Joanne Taylor against Nick Bosa. Nick Bosa lines up on both sides, but he's going to get Juan Taylor quite a bit. And I think like one of the first things Andy Reid had to do with this

game plan is say Nick Bosa is not wrecking this game. How are we making sure Nick Bosa does not wreck this game? Now, you probably have additional ideas. The normal ones would be, a little misdirection. You run at him, screens, play action, move the pocket, all those things. Joanne Taylor, remember, was the big free agent signing for the Chiefs last offseason. He's got 24 penalties in 20 games. I thought he struggled in that AFC championship game against the Baltimore Ravens. This is a scary matchup if you're the Chiefs.

Now, having said that, I think if you come up with a way to neutralize Nick Bosa in this game, the Chiefs are going to win this game and they're going to be in a great spot because so like if you look at the rest of this 49ers pass rush on paper, I remember looking at it like middle, oh my God, Chase Young, Jvon Hargrave, Eric Armstead, Jvon Kinlaw,

Nick Bosa. This group has underperformed in the playoffs so far. 49ers have hit the quarterback 11 times. Nine of those are Nick Bosa. The rest of the team has hit the quarterback two times in two games. Jvon Hargrave, zero sacks,

zero quarterback hits in two playoff games. Chase Young, disappointment that trade. He's got no sacks or quarterback hits. Has not been good against the run. You saw how the Lions took advantage of him in the run game in the NFC championship. So the nine years really need one of these other guys to step up because I believe that Andy Reid, Patrick, they're not going to let Bosa just come in and wreck this game and wrecked.

They're going to have a bunch of tools in there. I always get this from. Tools in their toolbox. Tools in the toolbox. Something in their pocket? Tools in the tool chest. What are you talking about? I don't know.

Is there something in the pocket? Yeah, you like that one. Yeah. I asked you this every time and I can never remember. Yeah, tools in the toolbox. Tools in the toolbox. To neutralize Nick. You even saw it in the AFC championship where they come out and they're getting rid of the ball

and they're horizontal. I mean, they know how to do this. This is not the first time they've game playing against this. So Niners really need one of these other pass rushers to step up. I think Eric Armstead is a guy to watch. He was injured. I thought he played well in the AFC championship. championship game on film. But that matchup, Joanne Taylor, Nick Bosa, in my opinion, is the one

way or the other will decide this football game. There you go. I've been thinking about this a lot recently with like some of the defenses that have recently become good without having like elite edge pressure. Like the Ravens made me start thinking about this for a little bit. The thing about buttering your bread on like edge rush and edge pressure is that there's just a lot of ways to erase an edge. They really, it's like if you dedicate resources to it, offensively. They figured out a lot of ways to do this when it's misdirection, when it's motion. When you like, think about all the unblocked Michael Parsons stuff for the Cowboys had to deal with, right? Where I was like, okay, this guy's so good in the run. We're just not, we're not going to

run at it. We're to run away from him, right? The Ravens, when they played Will Anderson and the Texans, all they just did was run away from Will Anderson, right? Just like, we're just running to the other side. You can just choose these things. And so when you, when you look at this Niners team and okay, like, they had Eric Armstead, they had Nick Boe said, that was the core. And then they spent the money on Jvon Hardgrave. They really said, like, we need to figure out other defensive tackle spot. That was the issue for us against the Eagles in the NFC championship game. That's what we're going to put our resources. They were banking on the idea that they could fill out the second edge spot with kind of rotational guys. And by teaching a guy up,

letting him be aggressive off the off the line. They did this with Samson Ebelcom right in season past. They thought that's how they could get it done. So Randy Gregory, they bring him in. Chase Young, they bring him in. They haven't been successful getting that second edge on the floor. So now you can just go to the, you know, Andy Reid's got a binder of offensive ideas, the size of a dictionary, you can just flip over to your, be a good edge rusher tab, open it and say, all right, we're going to run all these at Nick. And the other guy can't punish us, right? That's, that's a really challenging thing for the 49ers offense or defense, excuse me. There's no way to solve that. There's no, there's no, like, oh, well, like, Chase play better.

Like, Randy Gregory play better. Like, that's, that's the way to solve it. And it's like, well, that you're being, you're hoping for it, you know, get fired up, get emotions, you know, get energy, get a Super Bowl, you got to show up, but like, you're holding your breath. You don't really think it's going to happen. schematically you can't just decide to become a blitz team right this was the the eagles jonathan gannon issue from last super bowl was like all right they need to be able to blitz him but they just haven't done it enough in the season to be good at it now and so they don't there's no way for the niners to solve the issue that the packers put on the field against them and the alliance put on the field

against them which is we can just want our reverses and our pin poles and our misdirections and we can do all of our we beat your edge rush or stuff right at nick and you can't put you don't put different fronts on the field because you guys don't do that you're not going to blitz because you guys don't do that and the other edge of the edge of you can do that and the other isn't going to punish us. There's no real way around that. And so I'm, I'm pretty confident in Andy's ability to punish the 49ers lack of edge depth. I think he's going to be able to pull that off. Yeah, I guess, I mean, what you would be looking at is if you're getting in third and long situations, if you can't run the ball, now all of a sudden, Nick Boat. But even then, you can

move the pocket. You can help Juwan Taylor. You can do different things. And I'm not saying, again, if I'm going to say bigger samples are better than smaller samples, Javon Hargrave had, I think, seven and a, like he was doing stuff in the regular season. It's just the playoff. he hasn't been as much of a factor. So maybe one of these other guys steps up. It's like you said, the more I look at it and study that Niners defense, it's like their plan A is that pass rush to win. Their plan B is that pass rush to win.

Like they don't have other and they're not going to turn. I'm not saying they do no disguise, but they're not going to confuse Patrick Mahomes here. They're not all of a sudden going to be blitzing, like you said, at a high rate. They're not going to be disguising stuff. So like it really just comes down to can their guys up front, win at a high rate. And Mahomes is probably his most underrated skill, his ability to avoid sacks.

I mean, I think he was second lowest or lowest in the NFL this season. The guy just does not take those negative plays. I mean, that play where they have him by the arm and he throws it out of balance with his left hand. Like, the defense does everything right. They chase him. They get to him and it still doesn't matter. Oh, you're just going up. You didn't

lose any yards. And now you have to play another down against Patrick Momes. And we saw Jared Golf was completing third and longs against this defense. So, very curious to see what this Niners defense looks like. I mean, you know, again, you mentioned it. And I didn't jump fully on board with you last week just because there have been times this season where the Niners defense has looked good. But man, you look at all the numbers, you look at the film, everything from those last two playoff games. And if you say that's the group that's showing up,

it's going to be really tough for them to win. So they need to find some answers really quickly. So a quick chalk horse shout out. Stephen Ruees and I did Chalk Wars, which a big written piece on the ringer, where I cosplayed as the Niners, Stephen cosplays as the Chiefs, and we just kind of talk through, okay, what are you going to try to do? What am I going to try to do? What are the responses?

I did all the Niners' defensive sections, and every time I was like, well, I'm going to try to get my four-down rush to win, and that's it, right? The Chief's going to go four-strong. What are the Niners going to do? Play zone and try to win with four. Oh, the Chief's going to send,

you know, play 13 personnel, put Kelsey in motion. What are they going to do? Play zone and have a, that's what they do defensively, right? And Stephen had this, which I thought was really important from the piece, which I've lost and now I've found.

Mahomes takes a sack on 6.1% of his pressured dropbacks in the postseason. Okay? So not on 94% of his dropbacks is Mahomes avoiding a sack. On 94% of his pressured dropout, there is pressure. That's a 6% sack rate on a regular game is good for a quarterback. That's solid. That's just pressure dropbacks. The ability to avoid the negative play in the pocket from Mahomes,

is the number one, like, skill thing right now. It's number one incredible thing. Like, oh, where the Mahomes, incredibly plays down the field and the trick plays and the trick shots and everything. Like, a lot of that, not so much there in this office. It wasn't seasons past. But if you're going to be an inched down the field offense, as they are, can't have negative plays.

And Mahomes just decides in the pocket that never take a sack. Ludicrous. Yeah. Even regular season, I think that was 10%. And again, that was still first or second in the NFL with Josh Allen. All right? All right. What do you got? What's your, you have a third take, right? You have a third take.

I don't know. I'm confused. My third take is. My third take is this is a Kyle Shanan legacy win, and he's got to win it. I didn't realize until I looked back at that Niners' Chiefs game, I had forgotten just how much the Niners should have won that game, the 2019 Super Bowl, right? Like in my head, I'm like, oh, yeah, like Chiefs game winning drive, whatever.

No, no, no. At their highest point by the ESPN win probability model, the Niners hit 95.6% win probability in that game. So in 96 out of 100 universes, nine Super Bowl champion. Kyle Shanan's 1-0 as a head coach. This, of course, chasing three years previous, when the Falcons, offensive coordinated by Kyle Shanahan,

hit 99.6% chance to win the 28 to 3 Super Bowl against the Atlanta Falcons, or the pages, excuse me. This from Reddit, it was in 2019 after the game. Doing the math, the probability of Kyle Shanahan losing both his Super Bowls is roughly 0.176%, or won in 5,600. Oh my gosh. Wow.

And if there were only 5,681 universes, Kyle Shanahan would have at least one Super Bowl ring. But there's 5,682 and he has zero. So there's, there is a narrative about Kyle Shanahan the Choker, which I think is generally overblown. I think it is too far, but has some good kernels of truth in it, right? You and I have talked about Kyle Shanahan clock management and aggressiveness. Get points on the board, even when you're leading, right? You know, be able to be pass happy, manage the clock. There's, I think, points about right, his general pass happiness.

versus run happiness. That was a big part of the Falcons game. Then obviously there were the stats, oh, the 0-31 when they're trailing in the fourth quarter. And those are gone now, right? They've had their comebacks. But in general, I think like, okay, Kyle's a choker. The offense isn't built for playing from behind. There's some good truth to that. It does generally get overblown. With that said, psychologically, right? If you just think about the arc, the Niners have taken, said, we got here with Jimmy and we realized over the course of the Jimmy arc that he wasn't going to be good enough for us in the postseason, right? Like, there's a, there's a always going to be a quarterback whose hand we have to hold.

We've got to be a heavy play action team. You're going to center, do all the little tricks to really assist this quarterback. We're going to aggressively pursue a quarterback who is a game changer for us, a quarterback who is an impact maker. And we're going to do so. We're going to trade multiple first round picks for Trey Lance. And they blew it. They blew it, right?

Like, for a bunch of reasons, like bad pick, injuries, whatever. You can talk about all the stuff behind the Trey Lance pick, but it was a travesty. It did not work. And they fell bass backwards. I mean, they just lucked. into Mr. Irrelevant Brock Purdy, who like, we don't need to do a Brock Pretty conversation is objectively a good enough quarterback winning Super Bowl with. It's more than Jimmy was.

Has some of the game changer stuff that they wanted Trey Lance to be over Jimmy. He can create outside of structure. He can throw the football down the field. He is aggressive. He will scramble. He has the things that they were looking for. They should have blown the Trey Lance pick and never gotten back here. It should have taken years to recover.

And then they shouldn't have had all the Christian McCaffrey trade. And like, everything has gone so perfectly for them to end up back here. they should have had such a crippling error for a team to trade those picks that they traded for Lance and McCaffrey and then make it to the Super Bowl with not Lance. It's shocking that they pulled this off.

So you got the second life, right? You got like the Mario, you know, one plus one, right? You got to survive that crippling Lance blow. And now you're back here. If you don't win this, it starts to wear on you, man. Especially if you lose it in devastating fashion,

if you lose it and had a lead and then gave it away to Patrick Mulmour, Holmes fashion. I mean, that just starts to sit on you. Jed York is the owner of the Niners, is 0 in Super Bowls. All right? If he loses this, he's 0 in three. Forty-N-Rish championship town. This is a championship team. They do not like to lose Super Bowls. Right. It is, it's not like, oh, they have to make a change tomorrow. Oh, get a new quarterbacking for a purdy. Oh, you know, fire Kyle Shannon. It's nothing like that. It's just the weight accumulates. I don't think people are like general NFL fans realize how much like guys within the building

just live with losses that hang on their heads, right? Like, I'll, never forget what I talked to a guy who works for the bears like not like a GM, not like a head coach, like a random dude works for the bears, four years later about double doink. And like it sounded like it was yesterday for him. This is just a playoff game. These things live on these dudes' heads. And so if Kyle has to deal with the Atlanta loss, 99.6 percent, the Chief Super Bowl loss, 95.6 percent. And then has to do another loss. And this time, while he's on his extra life, well, he's on his Brock Purdy era, on his, we're immortal, we're bulletproof. We're never going to die era. I just think that's going to be really,

really, really hard psychologically to overcome. Think about what Kyle looks like half the time. Just death in that man's eyes. Just like he's never slept. He's never thought about anything except winning this. There's a ton of pressure right now, particularly on Kyle, who's been the defining offensive voice

the last 10 years. His impact on football is up there with the greats. He should have a career that indicates as such. He needs to get a ring. A lot of pressure on the young man approaching this week. I'm going back and forth on this one. I was with you and then I was thinking, What? Like, okay, so let me, let me play the, let me play the other side here.

I mean, like, this isn't, yes, he has a second life because they got purdy, but like, they continue to have that life. Like, they're, they're in the final four. I mean, every year, like they're probably going to be, continue to be one of the best teams in the NFC for what, the next like three years at least. And then who knows, you rebuild, uh, challenges. But like, he's like, he's shown an ability to adjust to his personnel. He's had a plan B. He's had a plan C. This was the best offense he's ever coordinated, if not that that Falcons team with Matt Ryan. If you look at the numbers, if you believe that was one, then this is two. So like they are, I believe, going to have other opportunities. Having said

that, yeah, like it is hard to get back here. You need, I mean, what were the odds that Debo Samuel, George Kittle, Christian McCaffrey, Brock Bertie, Trent Williams would all be healthy for a Super Bowl this year, like with some of those injury history. So yeah, you don't, this isn't promise you don't get it every year. There will be other quarterbacks, other teams who are stepping up next year. So I agree with you certainly in that respect. And just listening to Kyle Shanahan, you're right about coaches. And the loss is like, Andy Reid was asked today. And he's like, I could tell you every play of the two of the Super Bowls that I've lost. And Kyle Shanahan was just this little window into his mind. Like, I forget who I think it was Connor or who asked the question.

He was like, hey, I've talked to some of your former assistants. And they say that like when they bring a play to you and they don't have like every single detail buttoned up that you kind of like, you know, rip into them. Yeah, rip into them. Why do you do that? And Shanahan's like, because that's what I, he's like, that's what I do to myself. When I install the play, I need to know how it works against this front, that front. I need to know how it works against every coverage. I need to know if we have the right personnel to be the first read, the right personnel to have the second read, the right checks, the right adjustments. And he goes, I don't know what the exact quote was. It was something like, If I'm going to torture myself about that, then I'm going to torture them.

I'm like, this is not like normal human behavior. This is a nice reminder that NFL head coaches are not well-adjusted people. This is a different one. And that's like what the guy is going. Like that's every week. That's the OTAs. That's the summer. This stuff wears on you.

Now he's a relatively young guy. I think he looks pretty young and spry here in Vegas. That's the thing that throws you. Is that like he walks around and looks like the most mellow dude? And then when he talks. talks about, like, non-scheme-set. Like, you know, it was just, like, personnel stuff. Or just, like, you know, what, like,

talk about Dan Quinn or Rahim Morris. Like, he, like, just comes off as, like, chill. And then the second you ask him about, like, hey, like, designing an offense, what's it like, he's like, he's like, he's like, just like, deranged and, like, be in. He's like, why do you love? Like, it's such an interesting relationship with it. I would encourage everybody who hasn't listened to the play callers,

which is an athletic podcast that Jordan Ward-Rieg did, where she, like, sat down with, with Chanahan and McVey and McVey and Mike McDaniel Matt LaFlor, and they talked about all those guys, but also what it was like in Washington when Kyle was the O.C. and those guys were under him, it's nuts, dude. Like, it's scary nuts the way that they treated one another. And the level of intensity that they've all now reached because of the way that they came up, it's freaky, freaky stuff. All right. Yeah, he's, I mean, he's got a lot on the line. There's no doubt about Aridman. I do want to say, right, there is, there are four coaches who have appeared in multiple Super Bowls and never won one. And it's John Fox.

Dan Reeves, Marv Levy, Levy, Levy, thank you. And Bud Grant, which good coaches, guys who are meaningful, impactful players, like Dan Reeves in the Broncos ring, Marv Levy is in the Bill's Hall of Fame, like whatever. Shanahan has impacted football at a degree where he doesn't feel like he should be on that list, man. It feels like he should be on a list of a guy who has one, right? He should be in that particular group. It's like, when I look at those names, I think about Kyle's name joining that fifth group. I'm like, man, it's not that it would suck.

Those are good coaches. It just doesn't feel appropriate for the way that Shanehan's impacted the game. Yeah, my gut was Marv Levy's on another level from Lohen, like, that's fine company for Shanahan to keep. So I would need to think about it more and again, refresh my memory a little bit more. But there you go. That's for you, Bill. Bill's fans.

I'm always in your corner. Come on. I'll stick up for Marve Levy. That was an innovative coach. All right. My extra point taken, listen, I'm just going to see a little piece on the ticker here before we came on. I thought was interesting, and that's what I'm going with.

So what do you want from me? All right. I think the Cowboys could upgrade a defensive coordinator this all season. Wow. So you start the pod with Dan Quinn could be a good head coach, and you end the pod with the Cowboys are getting a better Dief of the coordinator than Dan Quinn. Well, I really like one of the candidates. You must really love that guy's head coach whoever this candidate is.

No, it's a different job, as I remind you. Okay. So they are interviewing, per Calvin Watkins in the Dallas Morning News or have interviewed, Ron Rivera, Mike Zimmer, and Aden Durday. I know he is. We've seen him on hard knocks. Their defensive line coach. Those are the three guys.

You're excited about Ron. I think who do you think is the guy I'm excited? Mike Zimmer. 100% Mike. I mean, Mike Zimmer would be a fantastic fit, I think. If I'm a Cowboys fan, I'm saying go get Mike Zimmer. There's nothing this man hasn't seen. What's your rule?

Jack, Jack, too. He's old. Older Jack. And he's so ordinary. I mean, he is Mount Rushmore. He's so old. Yeah, I mean, he could, like, and I think he, you know, he's probably a little bit refreshed now. He's had some time off.

He's looked at all the offenses. He's looked at what defenses are doing. He's someone who, I think, could add different wrinkles who could have this great sort of, I don't know if it would be probably his final chapter in the NFL coming back for a Cowboys team that's competing for a Super Bowl. You know, him and Mike McCarthy got to know each. Like Mike McCarthy will know what he's getting into if he hires. Mike Zimmer. Now, you might have a buddy Ryan, Kelvin, Kevin Gilbride situation where there may be a

point where Zimmer tries to punch Mike McCarthy, but I'm team content, and that's okay with me. So Dan Quinn did an excellent job. He did not do an excellent job in those playoff losses. Again, that's a one-off. And the Packers did a great offense lit up the Niners, too. So I don't want to just say it was Dan Quinn. It was not. But I feel like I would feel pretty good if I was Mike Zimmer, if I were a Cowboys fan. And I had Mike Zimmer taking over for Dan Quinn. And I had Mike Zimmer, like, playoffs coming up with game plans for some of the best offenses in the NFC. So I'm curious to see who gets hired there, but I have long been a fan of Mike Zimmer defensive mastermind, not necessarily Mike Zimmer head coach. Yeah, no, I'm envisioning a Mike McCarthy into Mike Zimmer press

conference. When McCarthy is there like, you know, we're putting a lot of effort on the field. It's coming together. You know, we're getting better week over week. There's a little stuff that we want to clean up, but you know, we believe in our union what we're doing. And then Zimmer comes down, he's like, terrible effort. This is not a good enough team. Trayvon Dix can't play for me. We can't do this. They're going to have to make sure

to get their notes on the same page, get their tone right. I love the idea of Zimmer back in the league as a DC. I want to see Zimmer back in the league as a DC, and I should have done for my take, Chip Kelly back in league as an OC. That'd be really fun for me. Because I think, like, Chip just is cool.

But Zimmer is not just a really good DC who, like, the thing that Zimmer's always done is had excellent third down package as well coached up, well-schemed up, like keyed in on on protection rules, like bespoke to every opponent, right? He's adjusted stuff game plan wise. Spoke drink.

We love bespoke. It's a good way. It means what it means. It's helpful. Anyway, characteristic to every offensive faces, good, smart. But also like,

I think the way that Zimmer likes to run defense is a little bit of where the pendulum is swinging right now. Where if you think about what Flores did with the Vikings, certainly like insanely blitz heavy, but even think about McDonald and think about spags and think about some of these teams that are saying, when we want to get pressure, we are going to send extra bodies. We are going to line guys up in line of scrimmage.

We are going to not just rely on a four-down rush. That feels like that's going to be the thing to Jor for the next couple of years is figuring out the ways to Blitzie's elite quarterbacks, and Zimmer's been a guy who's been able to do that for a decade plus. So to me, like, Dan Quinn a little bit represents an older way of doing defense, and Zimmer still old represents most of the way the defense is heading. So I would love Zimmer and Dallas. That would be, in my opinion, a great high.

That would be fun. Maybe it'll get done here in the next couple of days. All right, that will wrap it up for this episode of Extra Point Taken. Thank you to Ben Solac. Thank you to Christopher Sutton sitting right next to me. Producing Nora and Stephen are back tomorrow with Dual Threat. Solac and I make our Super Bowl picks, our props, our predictions on Thursday. And then we all will be together on Friday for a special show.

So check that out. Thanks to Eduardo Ocampo for the video production. I don't know if there's going to be video production for this one or not, but in general, we love an Eduardo Ocampa. So he deserves the shout out. Anyway, additional production supervision by Connor and Evans and Arjuna. I'm Gopal, who's also sitting here.

Thank you to everyone for listening. We will talk to you on Thursday. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Fandwell is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino LLC. Gambling problem. Call 100 gambler or visit fandle.com slash RG in Colorado, Iowa, Kentucky, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio,

Pennsylvania, Illinois, Tennessee, Vermont, and Virginia. Call 100 Next Step or text next step to 533442 in Arizona. 1.888-789.777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. 1-8009 with it in Indiana. 1-822470470.com in Kansas. 1-8777-7-70 stop in Louisiana. Visit MD gambling help.org in Maryland. Visit 1-800 gambler.net in West Virginia or call 100522470 in Wyoming.

Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline-MA.org or call 8003-2-7-50 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts. Or call 18778 Hope NY or Test Hope NYU in New York. Thank you.