The Ringer NFL Show - Week 12 Recap: Eagles Run All Over the Packers, Bengals Win a Tight Road Game, and Raiders Win a Shootout | The Ringer NFL Recap Show

Episode Date: November 28, 2022

Nora and Steven are joined by Ben Solak to talk about the AFC North after the Bengals win and the Ravens lose, leaving both teams at 7-4 atop the division (2:10). Then, Nora and Steven recap the rest of the Week 12 games by picking their winners and losers for the week, including the Chargers, Seahawks, and Packers (26:36). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Steven Ruiz Guest: Ben Solak Associate Producer: Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey there, it's Aria Hawwani. One third of the fastest growing show in combat sports. I'm Chuck Mindenholm. And I'm Pt Caryl, and together we are three-pack. Join us on the Spotify Live app after every UFC pay-per-view and become a part of the best community in mixed martial arts. Or if you can't make it, check out the Ringer MMA show podcast exclusively on Spotify. See you then. Love you.

Sunday Rehab Show. Week 12 Sunday is almost in the books. I'm Norprinciade. It is Sunday night at half-to-exam. time of a fairly wild Eagles Packers game. Um, but we're going to buggy through some of the most exciting stuff that came out of today. As always, I'm here with Benjamin Solac and Stephen Ruiz, uh, gotten on a role of saying happy Sunday to Stephen, but he kind of switched it up on me last week and said that it had

been a happy Sunday. So Benjamin, happy Sunday to you. Happy Sunday. And no, I don't like this. I like, I like, I like starting every episode with a Roundhog Day check in for Stephen. Just like Stephen pops out of his little hole after eight hours of commercial free football and just get lets us know if we saw a shadow or not. It's been a good Sunday or not good. That's the only thing I come to this spot for. I could sum it up with four words.

Brian Robinson's Big Hat. It was a good Sunday. Okay. Big Hat. We're going to talk about the Big Hat a bunch, I'm sure. The Big Hat got kind of disappointing. The Big Hat turned out to be like some friend of his dad's, company that he bought and he didn't really come up with the big hat and he just custom made a

big hat but whatever it's a cool big hat i want one i don't know no no tomorrow why are you looking into the big hat backstory i don't want to know the lore i want to make my own law i didn't do it on purpose i just have a twitter account i got milkshake decked log off that's the best advice uh we are going to in our headlines section today talk about the afc north the bank Bengals beat the Titans 20 to 16, while the Ravens lost 2827 to Jacksonville after Trevor Lawrence's late game heroics. Both teams are seven and four tied atop the division. And the Bengals have a much tougher schedule to close out the season.

So we're going to try to sort through what's happening in this division here. But let's start with the team that despite the gauntlet. of Chiefs, Browns, Bucks, Patriots, Bills, and Ravens that they have to close this regular season out where the arrow seems to be pointing up, which is the Bengals. Stephen, on this happy Sunday, what was your biggest takeaway from Bengals Titans? That T. Higgins is really good. And as long as you have one of those two, him and Jemar Chase, and if you have both, it's ideal. But as long as you have him, you have a chance to have a productive passing game, plus Joe Burrow,

I thought this felt like a Bengals game from last year. And it like kind of resembled the playoff game with the defense doing most of the work and the Bengals getting just enough big plays to ultimately win the game. But we saw the Bengals go back to their under center stuff a little more. It did to varying degrees of success. Sometimes it worked. Sometimes it didn't. But ultimately the game came down to what it came down to last year when the Bengals played.

Making plays outside the numbers down the field in the passing game. T. Higgins came up with like three or four. big plays outside of the numbers. And that was the difference. The Titans had no answer for that specific play call. Everything else, I thought the game plan was really good. It was like Tennessee. This is how they win games. They couldn't get the running game going, but they were able to do enough in the passing game because the Bengals were loading up the box that they could move the ball. Like Ryan Tannahill did well outside of the red zone, but then they get to the red zone, things bogged down. And, you know, football games are coin flip sometimes. Sometimes it comes down to a couple

big plays in the past game and a couple big plays in the red zone and that's what happened. The interesting thing with the Bengals offense is as you said, they're going back to doing a little bit more of the under center stuff. They have cleaned things up in a couple areas. I mean,

Burr only got sacked once. He got hit four times. They mostly were able to mitigate the Titans pressure, which obviously is a big difference from when they play in the playoffs. The run game has been a little bit more productive it's not explosive,

but Samajé Preen's been giving them a little bit. They had over 100 rushing yards. It still feels like ultimately it comes down to those go balls, but they're doing a little bit more in all of the other areas where in the beginning of the season had just been sort of goose egg. They're still only 5 or 17 on third down. So they're in a lot of those third and long situations. And in a game like this,

they end up getting just enough of them that it's okay. And it's okay against a good team. so it's certainly nothing to sneeze at. It's not like there's been this instant fix for what had ailed them earlier in the season. So it still feels like they're feeling it out a little bit, but it feels like there have been incremental gains in the protection, in some of the stuff with the running game,

and it's just inched forward to the point where, you know, this is a more successful chain moving offense. Yeah. And all the parts fit together. I think they're a better team because they're like 5%, five to 10% better in the areas that really bogged them down last year. And they were hoping for more. Like they invested so much in the offensive line to get more.

And that hasn't been the case, but it's not as limiting as it was last year. And that's clear. And that became clear like when you watch the playoff game, when Joe Burr gets sacked nine times. And I think he only gets sacked once or maybe twice in this game, not a lot of pressure, even though he helped the ball a decent amount. He was getting the ball out so fast in this game, man.

Yeah, huge. The only times he didn't, he was scrambling. He was getting outside of the pocket. I think that that was another key difference. was Joe Burrow creating outside of the pocket. The other thing was that, I mean, defensively, they were able to bottle up Derek Henry, 17 carries for 38 yards.

They were the team that hit Tanna Hill six times. In a weird way, there was a little bit of Titans-esque, like the Bengals were the team that was the bully, which is usually not what you see in a Titans game. Defensively, I was surprised that they were able to do that. I was surprised that Derek Henry didn't have a big day. I was surprised that they were able to just go out there and seem like the tougher team when that so rarely happens against Tennessee.

Ben, what did you think about the Bengals defense? Big Lou, baby. I mean, this thing, Big Lou. Big Lou is good. He's just good at his job. I mean, it's,

we're getting to the point where, like, when it comes to those defensive coordinators who just take away what you do well, doesn't matter what it is, doesn't matter what the week is, Thursday, Sunday, Monday, on home road, weather. and DJ Reader out, whoever's out, like, you know,

no Chiodobey, Wuzier, like the injuries they're dealing with. Big Lou just takes what you want to do and doesn't let you do it and says, beat me a different way. Like, if, like, the Steelers game, like, they give up 30 to the Steelers. It's a great example. Like, this Kenny Pickett was, like, actually playing decently well. They were, like, winning one-on-ones. Like, the Steelers had not had that good of a passing game.

And it's like, all right, well, if you beat me with this, fine, you're not going to beat me the way you usually do. We're not going to, like, fall for play action. We're not going to fall for motion and trick-play nonsense. And then you get this Titans game and it's like, hey, every first and 10, Bengals walked out with three dudes in between the tackles, bare front, tilt front, like the Belichick front against the Rams back in the Super Bowl. Right.

No, we're not, we're not doing Derek Henry. It was 17 carries for 38 yards, 2.2 yards per carry. Now, Derek Henry did have like a 70-yard catch-it-run, which should have been a touchdown. So, yeah, right, it doesn't show up in the rushing stats. It was a screen, so we're chilling. Big Lou baby! Yeah. It's that ability to say, listen, we know that you're predicated on this.

We found the janga piece that's holding up this tower. We're going to knock this janga piece out and make you be something else. And yeah, sometimes Trayland Berks is going to get a 50-50 ball down the field. Absolutely. But we are going to take away your early-down running game. We're going to play tight-to-the-play action. We're going to make Tan Hill beat us. And critically, this made the Titans struggle in the Red Zone.

Three trips to the Red Zone for the Titans. Best Red Zone offense in the league. No touchdowns. Three field goal attempts. only two of which went in. Big Lou! Nobody can do this against the Titans all year, man. The return of DJ Reader, so integral.

Mike Hilton, who's their nickel. Hilton's just a classy example of like a good player. Just one of the best run defending defensive backs. He'll find just instinctive. He had multiple TFLs. Sam Hubbard, dude, like, 74 is just like a 270 pound defensive end who loves to stop the run.

Sam Hubbard was outside of his mind. They just got guys. and they get him in good spots. Big Lou should be a head coach tomorrow, man. He's awesome. Mike Hilton's like, you know how they used to like shoot people out of cannons like at the circus? Like that was, yeah, yeah, Mike Hylums got some evil can evil to him. Yeah, they put him in like the little like American flag helmet and a big Lou lines up the cannon and he shoots it. And then he hit Derek Henry a couple times beyond the line of scrimmage and blew up drives. Logan Wilson had one of those. Joseph Osai, who they've got healthy. That was awesome. And they're going to these bare fronts. They kick Hubbard inside and they put Osai as their outside player and Assai is a son of a gun.

They're awesome. They're so well coached, especially because you watch the offense. They're like, those guys are not well coached. The defense is so well coached. They're great situationally. And like, yeah, okay, Titans end up with 16 points. The Titans aren't that grave in offense. But it's the way that they force the Titans and every team they play to play outside of identity

that is just so translatable to playoff ball. Awesome to see. Could you imagine if they found it like an OC version of Big Lou? It'd be amazing. Yeah. They are a game plan. defense. And, you know, Ben brought up the, the bare fronts, um, that Belichick's used and used in the Super Bowl against Rams. One of the calling cards of why the Patriots have, have consistently

been good on defense is they just, they treat every opponent differently. They look at everybody's strengths and say, you know, we're going to, we're going to shift on a week to week basis and figure out how to take that away. And that's not everybody. And that's not every good defense, right? There, there are plenty of good defenses in the NFL that just say, this is what we do best to We're going to do it. But when you get a unit that both has the personnel and the coaching to do that and to morph themselves every week, I think Ben's point that the playoffs is when it really pays off is important.

So that'll be very cool to watch as they make their way forward here. We should talk about what that's going to involve, particularly in what's probably going to be a little bit of a race with the raving. So Stephen, what did you think about this loss to touchdown Trevor on the Jacksonville Jaguars? Well, one thing I think the Jaguars are a good team. Like, I don't want to like bury the Ravens because they lost this game and it was in dramatic fashion. It was kind of ugly looking back on it. But the Jaguars had 10 points with five minutes left in the game.

They were up by nine points with like 10 minutes left in the game. This is I've lost count so far, maybe like four or five times where the Ravens have had a double digit lead in the second half. Yeah, don't worry. I got that for you. I got that set. All right, thank you. I'm on it. And then on the other side of the ball, like not on defense, on offense, it comes down to the same thing we say every week.

Like Greg Roman, I just need more. And I know that it's hard to put everything on him because they don't have the receivers. And Devin DuVernay and DeMarcus Robinson, those are your top two receivers. It's harder to design an offense. But my response is always he commands certain body types to run this offense. He wants Patrick Ricard on the field on third down for some reason. And it's, I don't know how you design a real NFL passing game in 2022 with these pieces, but these are the pieces that he wants and he needs to run his stuff on early downs.

And then when teams get them off script, knock them off script, it's the same problems over and over again. And we saw it again today when Lamar had to make a play. He's throwing to like covered guys downfield. And that's when you start to see the misses. Like it's hard to be accurate when your receivers don't get open. I think that's something we kind of miscalculate when we're weighing a quarterback's accuracy, especially on downfield passes. Like when you're throwing a Mark Andrews with a cornerback in trail position and the only way

to get it to him is to get it up and over and drop it into a bucket, it is hard to make those throws and they're going to look inaccurate if you miss them. And I think that's the phenomenon with Lamar because every other throw that he hits, it looks amazing. Like I swear the last three games, most impressive I've ever seen Lamar as a passer. And they're being wasted. this was absolutely the game of like quarterbacks who carry their passing offenses through the muck man there's like constantly perfect place intermediate balls layered over linebackers in front of

safeties throwing with leverage and it's and it's you know let's make Marvin jones and zay jones and jemal agnew work and let's make demarcus robinson and josh oliver work like it's just it's these are two of the best intermediate passers middle of field passers we have in the league and critically, like, that intermediate middle of the field gets talked about so much is such an important part like the Shanahan offense. But like all the play action quarterbacks to Tanna Hill, Jimmy, whoever you want, they all get to throw intermediate middle on easy mode. Lamar and Lawrence throw it on an expert mode, man.

Like those windows don't exist. And the way they create space is incredible. So yeah, the Ravens now, this is their fourth loss. So let's do a quick recap of Ravens losses. They lost to Miami, right? Hold on to your seats. Yeah. with 758 left in the fourth against Miami, ESPN gave them a 97.8% chance to win.

They then lost to Buffalo with six and a half left in the fourth. ESPN gives them a 73% chance to win. They lost to the Giants with three minutes left. They had an 84% chance to win. And then here this loss to the Jaguars, nine minutes left in the fourth. They had a 90% chance to win. If you take it to two minutes left in the fourth, right? Like after they scored the touchdown, they're up by seven, 151 left, third and 21,

for the Jags for the 14-yard line, Ravens have a 95% chance to win the game. In all of the Ravens' losses for this year, they've had a 75% chance or greater to win in the fourth quarter. The Ravens are really good at this. They're a very, very, very good team. They cannot get the horse into the barn, man. They just can't park the car in some of these games.

And it's been ludicrous ends, right? Like the dolphins come back, 20 unanswer points in the fourth quarter. That hadn't happened. The Jaguars are now what? what is it, one and 183 in games in Jaguars history, in which they were trimmed by at least seven with a minute left. Producer Isaiah, yeah, he dropped a stat for us before the game. And producer Isaiah said, do you guys know the stat or the Jaguars are one and 183 or something?

Isaiah, will you tell us what it is? Yeah, the Jags are now one in 183 when trailing by seven plus points in the final minute of regulation. Okay, but they're one in oh since today. Yes. Anyway, momentum, all right? Here's the thing about that stat that I think is most important. It is a continued reminder of what this entire Jaguars season is about, which is that there are now adults in the building, right? Like, even when the Jaguars had the games they were winning,

it was still like Doug Maroon and Blake Bordles. It was kind of like, okay, well, this is, you know, like, we have a formula here, but when push comes to shove, like, this is not the way that you typically expected to be built out. With Doug Peterson and the way that he coaches, I mean, so much poor clock management across the league, an epidemic. Young coaches, rookie coaches, old coaches, everybody. Doug just perfectly calling timeouts before the two-minute warning,

before the Ravens that scored, just understanding how to get time, knowing they were two for three in their fourth downs. They go for it on two-point, just Doug. Awesome. They lost ETS in this game. And, all right, Michael Hasten time. They're just so well-coached. And then Trevor, who just is a full-on, I can be in passing downs on first and ten.

I can always be throwing from the pocket, managing protection, and five on the concept that they just got real dudes. So even though, yeah, Jackson was lost a bunch of games they should have won. This Jags team is legit, and it's cool to see that borne out in a win over a legit contender because it's a reminder that Doug and Trevor are cornerstones. You can build around these guys and have a legit franchise. And Trevor made some stupid good throws, right? Like the fourth and eight on the first touchdown drive, not in the game, but the first

of the two that they needed at the end to win. And then the fourth and five on the game winner. Like, this Ravens defense has felt like it's really. really found an identity lately. I don't have anything critical to say about how you defend those throws better because there's just not, I don't know how you're going to do it. You already got them into fourth down, right? You did a lot of things right.

And I don't know what you can do better to get a better outcome out of that situation. I just don't know at what point we have to take off the sort of like, I, you know, analysts, DVOA, let's look at the numbers cap and just go, this keeps happening to this one team, it is November 27th. At what point is it in some way meaningful? Because that seems like a dumb thing to say in a lot of ways, but I also know that it is in my soul. And there are some dumb things in my soul, so maybe that's what's going on. But it makes you feel like there's something true there. Well, let's connect these losses. Save for the Giants loss, which has like a turnover aspect to it, dolphins, bills, and Jaguars. You have a...

quarterbacks in clear past situations who are attacking downfield on you and you start to realize the weakness of this Ravens team is corner, right, where Marlon Humphrey's played the whole season. And Marlon, like, I was the biggest Marlon Fran fan 2018, 2019. You couldn't shut me up about Marlon Humphrey. He hasn't been, like, especially last year, but then this year as well. He's been good this year. Marlon's been good this year. He wasn't, he's not what he used to be. Marlon used to be good night, like sleep four quarters. Marcus Peters has been rough. Mark and Marcus Peters, who's their second outside corner,

has been a struggle, and then Brandon Stevens, who's their rookie plays the slot for them, was another guy that got picked on today. Their corner depth, and when those guys get isolated, is an issue for them. Let's now circle week 18

against the Cincinnati Bengals. Potential for the division game. You win this, you get to play a home playoff game. Let's bring back the conversation about T. Higgins, who's the Bengals wide receiver, two,

and is like the 12th best receiver in the NFL. This AFC potential potential playoff run for the Ravens. I think the Ravens are a legit contender. I think the Ravens could easily make a playoff run. But if they have to go like through Cincinnati and then Miami and then Buffalo, I don't know if they have the, yeah, the, the, the, the depth that corner is what worries me. So when we look at some of these like late game losses, to me, it's, are they able to match up and just win in these clear past situations? Is, does McDonald know how to get his guys in the right spot? Are they comfortable there? Like that, that outstanding question to me kind of circles

the corner depth as the weakness for this team. I don't think this applies to the Bengals game just because of the types of throws Lawrence was hitting. He had like three whole shots against cover two in this game. You see like a quarterback maybe hit one all season. He had three in one game. I thought he was just making throws that like four other quarterbacks can make against his own defense.

That was pretty well spaced and well organized. They had like one coverage bust where Hasty had the touchdown. I think it was the second touchdown of the game where Roquan and a Patrick Queen kind of got mixed up. I tend to blame Patrick Queen on those plays because if you watch this team on film over the last couple weeks, you can like really see Roquan pointing out to Patrick Queen where he needs to be. Like it's happened at least like three times.

But I'm fine with the defense. For me, it's still the offense because like you said, you go through a gauntlet like that. One of those teams is going to score at least 30 points. Do I have any faith in the Ravens matching one of those teams touchdown for touchdown? No, I don't. They just don't have the dudes around Lamar. And until they get those dudes. it's going to be the same conversation with this team.

Like it's getting boring having this conversation. We've had it for like two years straight. The answer is always the same. They don't have enough on offense. And they won't. Wow. Someone's doubting prime 35-year-old Sean Jackson. His ability to stay healthy.

During the cold winter months, keep those hamstrings just nice and loose. All right. So we went through the Bengals schedule. I'll go through it again just to highlight that it is. pretty rough. Chiefs, Browns, Bucks, Patriots, Bills, Ravens. The Ravens have the Broncos, Steelers, Browns, Falcons, Steelers again, and then the Bengals. So obviously that's a much cushier slate. Both of these teams can make the playoffs. They probably both will. Worth noting

Jamar Chase didn't play, but probably can soon. Bengals seem to be headed in the right direction a little bit more solidly than the Ravens, but the Ravens path is much easier. Steven, again, both of these teams can be playoff teams. It's not, you know, it's not a zero-sum game here. But how do you think this all shakes out? I think the Ravens still win, but I would feel better about the Bengals if I was a Bengals fan right now. And I think we as like a football watching community will feel better about the Bengals by the

time the playoffs roll around. But the Raven, the schedule is just too easy. And the Bengals, like, not only the Chiefs. Chiefs game next week, but going to the Bucks is still tough. Going to New England, a Belichick team, that's a tough matchup, playing the Bills, Josh Allen, and then the Ravens, you still have to beat them because of the tiebreaker. The margin for error is just too small for Cincinnati at this point. It's too big for Baltimore. Ben, what do you think? Yeah, I also think because of the schedule, the Ravens are in a spot where I think they're going to be able to win the division. If the division

comes down to that game that they play week 18, I do think the Bengals match up quite nicely against the Ravens. I think the Bengals would be. Big Lou, always played Lamar pretty well. And then Jamar, assuming he's healthy and T, I mean, like, that's a bad matchup. I sense, like, the deadline, I've been, I've said there's seven contenders in the NFL. It's Bill's Chiefs, Ravens, Eagles, 49ers, Cowboys, Dolphins. Those have been my seven. The Bengals are the eighth.

Like, this, this, this, I'm at the point where I think, like, like, not, like, saying, oh, the Bengals can make a Super Bowl run. Like, that sounds kind of dumb. they just did it. It's like, oh, well. But they feel remarkably more legitimate than they did it this time last year. And we know that they went through it last year

with the way that they're able to game plan with the improvements in like the running back passing game and the break out of T and like Burroughs just hitting all the same third and long shots has been hitting. Like, yeah, bangles me feel like the eighth contender. I still want to see them against the Chiefs next week before I'm willing to go that far because my question about this defense is can they play man coverage when they have to play man coverage

and playing against Tennessee, which I thought they did more down the first. the stretch they got tighter to routes is a different thing than playing man coverage against a team like the chiefs that way that next week i think will answer a lot of questions about the defense we'll probably end up talking this game on the friday preview but like chiefs do not scare me a man coverage they're gonna they'll they'll do like the old tray flowers on kelsey thing again and then like no chito but i mean markets vault of scantling do you do if he's back like kind of chiefs that to me like i i'd man up the chiefs i feel okay about it even with

even though 15 is going to kill me for it. I still feel like I can play them tight. If they, if they win that game, maybe we get Big Lou a big hat. That's how it all comes together. I like it. Can we like make the whole plane out of Big Lou?

Like, I'd be interesting to see what Big Lou would call on offense. Just let's see it for a week. Let's feel it out. It worked for the Patriots. It's working for the Patriots kind of. Is it? I don't know.

Let's not. Let's not do this. All right. The Eagles are now up 3420. There's three minutes. minutes and 44 seconds in the third quarter. Shall we call it a headline? And Stephen and I are going to take a break and then we're going to come back and go through

winners and losers. Yeah. Thank you, Ben. Lovely to chat as always. Go birds. Looking to get more out of this NFL season, well now is the perfect time to download FanDuel America's number one sports book. Because new customers get a no sweat first bet up to $1,000, that's free bets back if

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And obviously with Rogers' injury, we're going to get to that. But Stephen, kick us off with your first winner. My first winner. And this was a team that really needed a win was the Los Angeles Chargers. They win 25 to 24. Justin Herbert throws for 300 yards, three touchdowns. And that includes the game-winning two-point conversion to Gerald Everett. I mean, I don't know if Brandon Staley would have survived.

if they lose this game to this Cardinals team, which has been a mess, basically since March, would you say? March. And it looked like they were being out coached. I think actually arguably before then. But yeah, things really, really came to light. We'll keep it at March. But a good, a good adjustment by Brandon Staley, I thought he really figured things out on defense. There's still offensive problems with the chargers that are clear. But as long as they have Justin Herbert and a relatively healthy supporting cast, I think this offense is going to be able to be able to. the score enough points against a lighter schedule down the stretch to keep themselves in the playoff race. I don't think they're good enough to ultimately earn that playoff birth,

but I think you saw today that the offense is capable of still putting up 24 plus points, and they still have some guys that need to get back. Mike Williams didn't play today. He was out with the ankle injury again. Joey Bosa, of course, is still recovering from his own injury. But, I mean, this might be rock bottom for the Cardinals. Kyle Murray was asked about a certain play and basically said schematically they were fucked which is like a thing that we've been saying on this show and other podcasts have been saying about the Cardinals' offense

and their scheme for the last two and a half years and then finally we get Kyler Murray saying it although I don't think he meant like the scheme in totality but we once again saw this offense bogged down in the second half after finding some early success you have to watch a tape to see what Brandon Saley did but it was disjointed at the end And they really gave this game away.

They needed to get one or two more first downs. They couldn't do it. Chargers come back and then get the two-pointer to win the game. About Kyler saying that, I do feel like right after Thanksgiving is the sweet spot for players just being, like players on bad teams, just being exasperated and telling it like it is. I think Brandon Cooks answered some question about when he knew that the Texans were

overmatched and said something like the first play of the game. you come back from the holiday, you're just sick of it all. I think there's a nice little sweet spot of honesty. But yeah, I mean, very much a let's make the whole plane out of Justin Herbert type of game. I think he had six of seven passes completed while on the run for 69 yards. He had a big chunk of just their total yardage was his passing yardage. obviously he is so integral to just everything that they do

that it all feels a little bit precarious. But like you said, they absolutely needed to have this win. The 538 playoff predictor gives them a 39% chance of making the playoffs. If they beat the Raiders next week, that goes up to 59. So they're Klon and it doesn't always look great,

but between Herbert doing what he was able to and then, yeah, Staley just getting that. I mean, it's not about aggressiveness. It's not. not about analytics. It's about how tough the yards had been coming for them right up to that point and just being like, this is our opportunity to win the game. Let's go try to make it happen. If there's any offensive coordinator who can get you two yards, it's Joe Lombardi. Unfortunately, that applies to most plays he calls. But in this particular situation, it was really

good. But in this situation, it's great. It's exactly what they needed. He's like, I got the perfect play. I don't know how far it's going to get them in the long run, but they absolutely needed to have that play and this win and they got both of them. So tip of the cap. Yeah. All right. You're ready to talk about Mike White? I was born ready. Were you really? Because I'm pretty sure you're going to have to add him to QB ranking. No, I'm not. I have no takes on him. My first winner is the Jets. You're going to have some takes by the end of this segment. Jets are my first winner. They beat the Bears 31 to 10. Story of the game is Mike White. Right. And the Bears defense is nothing to write home about, I'm sure that actually Zach Wilson, who obviously got benched before this game.

game would have been able to look somewhat competent against this bear's secondary in particular. But Mike Waite was 22 of 28, 315 yards, 3 touchdowns, 0.65 EPA per drop back. Those are numbers that Zach Wilson and 20 career starts has not touched once. So I think the Jets can feel pretty good about the switch they've made. I don't think that they're going to be looking back anytime soon. again, some of this has to do with the strength of competition, but there's two things that I think are encouraging about the illustrious start of the Mike White era. First of all, he averaged 11.3 yards per attempt.

Zach Wilson has never had that high of yards per attempt number in his 20 career starts. He's never been trusted with that level of verticality in the offense. And particularly this season in how they've designed. how Michael Flores designed that offense for him. That is really encouraging because I just think that means the coaches think that the quarterback isn't a knucklehead. Second of all, he just was a better, he was a better point guard. He was better at just seeing what's going on. 10 different players got involved in the passing game.

Elijah Moore probably doesn't want to be traded anymore. He had 64 yards and a touchdown. The last two quarterbacks with 300 plus yards and three touchdowns were Mike White. And Patrick Mahomes. So there's all sorts of fancy numbers and exciting stats that make Mike White look like, you know, the second coming of Tom Brady. I would pump the brakes on that, certainly. But I do think that the degree to which he was able to get everybody involved in the offense

and just run the offense as it's designed for him and the fact that they trusted him to throw down field a little bit more. I think you can take that and say, okay, this isn't just about the bear's defense. This is looking like what it's supposed to look like a little bit more than it was a week ago. Yeah, and I think one thing you could say about this offense, like the Shanahan offense,

is that we've seen as long as you're a quarterback who isn't actively sabotaging the team, like it usually works. It usually leads to results. And you could just look at the 49ers record without Jimmy Garoppel the last couple of years. When CJ Beatherd or Nick Mullins has to play, the thing kind of just falls apart.

But when you put in like a do not, a decent quarterback that you could trust, at least in Jimmy G. It becomes a top five unit and they win a bunch of football games. The problem is that Jimmy is simultaneously better than those other guys and also trying harder to actively sabotage the team. Yeah, yeah. Somehow he's able to do that from both ends. And that's why Kyle Shanahan looks like he's aged like 10 years over the last two years.

But. Like first term Obama. Yeah. Like we don't need much from like White. Just don't be Zach Wilson. And like that has worked so far through one week. And it kind of was working for Zach Wilson before his worst qualities took over over the last couple of weeks. Just don't turn over the ball.

This team is good. This is a good football team. Right. As long as you don't screw things up. And I think Mike White at least prove today that he's not going to be a quarterback who actively screws things up. Well, they've got the Vikings, Bills, lions, jaguars, Seahawks and dolphins left on the schedule. So we're going to find out a lot about Mike White over the next month plus. All right.

First loser. Who got, Stephen? The Seattle Seahawks, this is a disappointing loss. They had a chance to at least stay at the top of the NFC West, but then they drop a game in overtime 40 to 34 on a Josh Jacobs walkoff run. And really, the problem here is that it was another Gino Smith, just another master class from Gino, which is becoming typical every week. But it was wasted, and we had questions about the Seahawks defense.

It looked improved over the last, like, month or so, but they were going up against flawed offenses. And the Raiders certainly fit that bill still, but the Seahawks defense looked like it looked over the first month when it was one of the worst defenses in the NFL. And it wasn't like the Raiders, outside of Devante Adams' catch on the last drive, which was amazing, a one-handed catch, perfect coverage. That doesn't matter when you have one of the best receivers in the NFL.

But outside of that, it was really, just a bunch of dinking and dunking and like four and five yard runs and then Josh Jacobs breaks a couple big plays. But this wasn't like a fluke. This was just a bad defensive effort from a team that has a lot of questions about it, a lot of young players playing. And this is typically the point in the season where you see rookies start to hit the wall. And this is a team that we've talked about that relies on so many young players and so many rookies. And even the pair of offensive tackles, if you were going to point to one or two players who had a hard time in this game. Abe Lucas would be one of them, the right tackle who went up against Max

Crosby, who has played like an elite defensive end this year, but he just couldn't block him. And that destroyed the Seahawks offense a couple of times. It blew up their last drive in overtime. I still thought Pete Carroll should have gone for it. It was fourth and five from around midfield with about four minutes left. Fourth down bots suggest they should have gone for it. Pete Carroll punts and then one play later, Josh Jacobs takes it in for the game winning score. but this was just really a missed opportunity for Seahawks team that could have not locked down a playoff berth with the last two losses that they had against the Bucks and this Raiders team. But dropping those two games, they've gone from what looked like a playoff lock to a team that

I don't know if they're going to make the playoffs and they might need some help and some luck over the next five or six games to get there. Yeah, I mean, look, and the defense in particular has been, I think now they look sort of like they've been volatile, right? because they got off to a pretty abhorrent start, made some adjustments to their fronts. All of a sudden, they looked like one of the better defenses in the league.

And then now, you know, they give up over 500 yards of total offense, had a couple weeks where it's looked shaky again. So that could totally come down to a situation where it just depends if they end on a high note or a low note, if things feel like they're clicking or not, if defense is not like offense. We know this.

it tends to be a lot more boom or bust, a lot more volatile, a lot more you just go on streaks and you got to ride the wave. So we'll see. It has put them sort of outside that elite NFC tier, which I think one of the surprises of the season

had been that they'd kind of crept up into that. Now I think with the defensive improvements not looking like they've fully stuck, I think that's a little bit shakier. Yeah, because like even like, Ignoring the 40 points, the Raiders just scored. Even the Bucks moved the ball well on them in ways that we hadn't seen the Bucs move the ball. Like they ran on the Seahawks and the Bucks couldn't run the football for the first two months of the season.

I'm still not overly pessimistic about this team just because Gino still looks like a top 10 quarterback. Like it was another game where he did have an interception. That was more of like a miscommunication or his two receivers ran into each other basically is what happened. Then he had a fumble on like a weird mesh point on a read option. But other than that, he was lighted out again, like throwing down field, throwing on the run, creating just a top 10 quarterback performance. And I think as he continues to stack these, we're like almost beyond the point where we're asking if it's real and we're asking instead how much money are they going to pay him? Because I think at the very least, he's locked that down. He was the best player on the team today.

I think he's been the best player on the team all season long. And really what I would ask is where would Seattle be without Gino Smith? which is not a question I expected to ask back in August. Seriously. And look, we're talking about the defensive inconsistencies. Gino's been really, really consistent. And that's an easier thing to do on that side of the ball. But it does feel like when we get to the end of the year and wherever it is that they are,

I think the combination of that loss plus the 49ers winning means that their playoff situation took one of the bigger hits today, but they still have a pretty good. path. Wherever they end up when we're going into January, that conversation is definitely going to start with, here's what Gino Smith and this offense have been able to do on a pretty consistent weekly basis. You can trust this team to, you know, score in the high 20s, right?

And we'll have to see how we feel about the defense by the end of the year. I think that's a lot less certain. But it does feel like they've just been so, like, stable. not only has he been able to do a lot of things that we didn't necessarily anticipate that he would be able to. It's just been really consistent, which when you're sort of riding the roller coaster and looking at the playoff predictor machines and all of that stuff, that's got to help a little bit. So even though they lose, that's probably some form of solace. Yeah, and I would say one thing, like, it's not like the passing game is working because they're really good at a certain concept or they're like really hammering a certain play type. Like, there's a variety to the offense and how they're getting the ball downfield and how they're passing the ball with success.

And that's why I tend to believe that this is more sustainable than even like, I'm going to angered Dolphins fans, but I'm going to do it anyway. Miami. Oh, no. No, let's not use Miami. Let's use San Francisco. Actually. When you look at Jimmy G's passing maps, like everything is concentrated in this one area in between the hashes, in between the numbers. And if you come across the defense that's able to take that away,

I'm not saying the 49ers can't beat that team, but we haven't really seen Jimmy beat a defense in that way. Whereas with Gino, I don't know what you take away because he's throwing over the middle. He's throwing outside the numbers. He's throwing short. He's throwing deep, throwing intermediate. There's just so much he could do. We've seen him scramble a little bit, right?

Like we've seen him get on the move. Yeah, he did. He had another huge play. He passed to a running back after breaking the pocket. It's impressive. in a way that I didn't expect and in a way that I don't think defenses can hone in on any one thing and stop it. Yeah, I mean, I think the difference there, right, is the 49ers, it feels like a lot of the time they just need to get to, maybe they need to get to 21 points, but quite often they don't.

The Seahawks probably that number is a little bit higher. So the overall picture, I'd rather be the 49ers right now than Seattle just because it looks like the defense has taken a bit of a step back. But I hear what you're saying. And when it comes to just the offense, I think it probably is more sustainable, even though, man, it's hard to find a skill position group that's more exciting than San Francisco's.

But with all that diversity of talent, it is to your point. The quarterback is just not doing as many different things with it. Yeah, Gino just has a much smaller margin for error, whereas Jimmy, like, he's a part of a,

like a big, bigger machine with this offense. I think Gino, somehow has been elevated to the best player and most important player on the offense, which is kind of surprising. Jimmy's part of Big Shanahan. That's right.

All right. My first loser. The Denver Broncos have found a new way to be disappointing, which I didn't really think could be done. They lost 23 to 10 to the Sam Darnold quarterbacked Panthers. But the development, I mean, look, the offense was brutal. It's been brutal. They lead the league in players on IR.

there's absolutely no sign that they're aware of this. They're calling all of these, you know, they're running out there and all these spread formations. You've got your center and your left tackle on injured reserve. Quarterback who takes too many sacks, he gets hit 10 times in this game. It just is like you, there doesn't seem to be any cognition of what's going on.

None of that is a shock, right? We've seen that type of discombobulation weeks past. Here's what happened, though, was that in this game, in the fourth quarter, we start seeing stuff that happens in a game between teammates pouring out into the public because Mike Purcell runs off the field in the fourth quarter and he makes a B-line to Russell Wilson on sideline to just absolutely chew the guy out. And that happens. Players get heated in games.

But what was kind of eye-opening about this is that he is just screaming in Russ's face. Nathaniel Hackett is standing a yard in front of this just like la-di-da, nothing to see here, nothing going on. I've got my headset, which, by the way, only covers one ear on. I couldn't possibly know what's happening here. You're the coach. You got to step in. You got to step in and calm them down. The best case scenario is that's just tempers flaring and it's a thing that happens in the moment and whatever.

they didn't necessarily need it, but you still turn around and do your job and say, hey, hey, hey, cool it. Let's be a team here. That might not be what was happening there because we're talking about a quarterback who, I don't know if you missed it, but when he switched teams, basically everyone who he'd ever played with before seemed to have something to say about it. And when you've made a, or not you personally, but when the team that you work for has made a quarter billion dollar investment that is going really, really, really, really badly. Probably the only thing that you can do at this point is try to find anything you can,

any clue as to how to salvage that or if there is a way to salvage that, if there is a way to make it look even an inch better. And having people fighting with him on the sidelines is not a way to do that. I feel pretty convinced in that. So I think Nathaniel Hackett, probably look I don't ever want to call for somebody to get fired it has too much to do with ownership it is too sort of hard to predict because you're just predicting what

one guy who runs a team is is going to choose in a given moment I have run out of things that I could say as to what exactly it is that he does there it feels like Freddie Kitchens doesn't it? I yeah God is this recency bias it feels

worse than that. Yeah, no, it does feel worse than that. It does. I mean, like, I don't think we saw the fighting on the sidelines. And I think it is a big point because usually when we see teammates fighting on the sideline, it's like, they're on the same unit. They're trying to figure things out. So many defensive players never talk to the quarterback. Right. They don't know each other. They, like, there's tons of guys on a football team. They go to different meetings most of the week. They don't know each other. This dude is like coming off the field and absolutely booking it to get in Russell Wilson's face. And he has a point, right? That's a really good defense that doesn't have a shot to get

anything out of what they're doing every week because the offense is absolutely incapable of doing anything. So, you know, I don't know who's in the right there. I just know that if the coach is listening to it happening, he's got to turn around and do something. And the fact that it's happening. It's just a bad sign anyway. This isn't the first time we've seen a quarterback go to a new team and there are growing pains. And I know it's more than growing pains with Denver. But like Tom Brady got off to a very slow start in Tampa and they weren't like a very good football team for the first two months. And they were like a 500 football team. And you still never saw anything like that. And I think it speaks to how the defense feels about the offense and how they feel about a quarterback who hasn't won anything for

them. Like it's different being in Seattle's locker room where, Russell Wilson has won a Super Bowl and has a relationship with the fans and the coach, and he has won a lot of football games. In Denver, he doesn't have any of that. He's the new guy. He's the guy that came in and was rich and was supposed to got all the money and was supposed to save the team. It hasn't happened. I'm not ready to do the whole doom and gloom thing with Denver and like it's over and like this is going

to be a disaster. And Russell Wilson is looking at Russell Wilson's contract because I do think that having the card to play where they can change the coach could matter and could turn things around. I brought up Freddie Kitchens before. Like going from Freddie Kitchens to Stefansky made the world of difference in Cleveland. And I think you could do something similar with Denver if you hire the right coach, the right offensive coordinator. Russell wasn't a better quarterback than Baker Mayfield.

Russell wasn't a better quarterback than half the quarterbacks in the NFL. I know he hasn't performed like it, but like you could still see it in his game on his tape. I still think he's in there. And if you get the right coach, you could turn this around. Nathaniel Hackett is not going to be that guy. That has been proven this year. And I don't know how you sell that to your fans. Like, yep, the same duo again.

Let's try it again. Maybe we'll work this time. We're past that point. This is a disaster of historic proportions. And I don't know like how you don't make a change going into 2023. I mean, look at it as a blessing, right? there's no salary cap for the coach. It is ultimately pocket change

to pay him to not coach for you for the people who run the team. They don't have that option when it comes to the quarterback, right? So the fact that when you look at Russ, there's still something there and this is a super injured group that in theory could be healthier next year,

could have a more stable coaching staff, a better offense, run an offense that understands the skills of the guys that they have available a little bit better. And they could genuinely improve that that way. And the other side of the ball looks really, really good. It would be worse if it were the other way around where the quarterback looked unsalvageable. And the coach wasn't because you can move on from the coach.

It just costs you sort of public embarrassment. And you know what? He wasn't even their guy. Who cares? And Nate Hacker would make an elite Walmart greeter. Let's just put that on the table. All right. We're moving on.

Who's your next winner? My next winner is the Dolphins. We talked about this earlier, the Brandon Cook's quote, which I think sums up the game for the Texans. He was asked when did he realize that they didn't have a chance? And he said right from the beginning. And that's what the game looked like.

The dolphins, it felt like they did not break the sweat. The Texans were just giving them the ball. Kyle Allen was very bad. the running game didn't work at all. There were a couple fumbles, but most of all, the defense just offered no resistance to this Miami offense,

which continues to roll in the same way that we've seen it roll for the past month under Tua. They're just spamming play action, throwing over the middle. And I don't know what the answer is. Like, the Texans try to play man coverage. It didn't work because you can't cover Tyree Kill or Jalen Waddle. They try to play zone,

and that doesn't work because those two guys are really fast, and Tua is really good at using his eyes. to open up windows and make those throws. But this game was over by the third quarter. Skyler Thompson came in in the third quarter with three minutes left. And the dolphins were only up by three possessions. I don't think I've ever seen that before in an NFL game, maybe even a college game.

Three possessions, that's it. They were like, nope, we're done. We're going to win this game. You guys can try all you want in the fourth quarter, Houston. We're moving on to next week. And really, I think that makes sense for this Dolphins team that it's a new offense. right? Like we, this is the first time we've seen this offense, this collection of players, this

scheme. And that's a, that's an advantage for Mike McDaniel because defenses don't have tape on this. And I think the more tape you put out there, the more likely defenses are going to come up with an adjustment. And I would hide it if I was Mike McDaniel. So I really, I really like that move. But I don't even know if there's an answer out there because the key to this offense are those receivers and two is quick release and that's not going away. Your take is play Skyler Thompson to disguise what they have on offense. Yeah, don't waste. Don't waste to, uh, and Tyrie Kill went out in the third quarter. He had crants, but I think if it was like a real game, he would have come back. Uh, Taryn Armstrong

died went out. Yeah. It was, it was a preseason game. Let's, let's be honest. Skyler Thompson helps make the two a case pretty well. I got to say. And that's, you know, I'm not here to not Skyler Thompson, but it does make you appreciate how well-timed their play action stuff is because it just works with Tua. And even when he turns his back, he knows when to release where everybody's going to be. And it just all works in concert. And then the backup gets in there and it's not quite so pretty. So I think that could be an added benefit of the subterfuge plan because it ends up making Tua look really good by comparison. P. Not touching that. All right. My next one is the Manders, the Washington commanders who beat the Falcons 19 to 13. They are 7 and 5. They are two games above 500 for the first time since before Alex Smith's horrible leg injury. Like put that into historical context any way you want. But it has been quite a while. Heineke's 5 and 1 certainly seems like that is that is his job until.

proven otherwise. The thing, he wasn't anything special in this game. The way that they won was actually Brian Robinson, gave them the running game that I think they'd been looking for. He had 18 carries, 105 yards. Also had a touchdown, but it was receiving. Also had a big hat famously, as we talked about. The takeaway here is essentially that they're going to play the Giants next week.

They have two games left against the Giants. Those are for the playoffs. And they've played themselves. into a position where if they sweep those games, they will certainly control their own destiny. But even just getting the one next week would go a long way. I'm not, you know, it's a little bit too early to be positive how the math all shakes out. But I think they would be in fairly strong position with a win.

So that's shaping up to be a pretty big game. And the commanders have played themselves into that opportunity. Yeah, and we're like starting to see these wild card contenders and the NFC kind of fall off. And the Giants could be one of them. They haven't done it so far, but they just lost to the, to the Cowboys. They obviously play Washington, but they still have two games against Philadelphia and then another game against Minnesota. So even if like Washington stumbles down the stretch, which is totally possible because the rest of their schedule is pretty hard, I think they still have a chance. And I think they match up really well with the Giants.

because their defensive front is so good. And the Giants have to run the football. And I don't think they're going to be able to do that against Washington. Yeah. Yeah. So like I'm Brian Robinson's big hat, Tyler Heineke, I'm ready for the playoffs. Bring them to the playoffs. If you're Robinson, do you wear a big hat on the sideline if they make the playoff game?

And if it's on Nickelodeon, you almost have to. You got to go back to your, he's got to get a cut. He's got to go back to his friends and say, hey, look, I was a nice guy. I'm a good friend. Got you a lot of pub for the big hat. What about cutting your friend in on some of those big hat profits? Ryan Robinson's probably too good of a person to do that.

I'm just being shady. Carson Wentz could turn things around by wearing a big hat. It would fix his career. There'll be new interest in Carson Wentz. They'll be like, oh, he's a big hat guy now. That's what it takes. I'm not so sure. All right.

Who's your second loser, Stephen? The Tampa Bay Buccaneers. They lose 23 to 17 in overtime on a Nick Chub touchdown run. I'm ready to say they're cooked. It's over. This version of the Bucks is over. I think they're going to make the playoffs. The NFC South is too bad for them not to make the playoffs.

But if you can't run the football on the Browns, maybe the worst run defense I've seen in the last 10 years, then you can't run the football on anyone. And that's been the key to this offense. They can run the football just relatively well. The offense kind of works. If they can't, then it doesn't work. This is one of those games where it just didn't work.

And you had to start looking at the coaching staff because Byron Lef, which is not called good games this year, I would say. I don't think he's really figured out the early down run-pass balance, how to work around a bad run game, how to still get to your play action stuff and the stuff you guys do well, he hasn't been able to do that if the game script isn't there. But Todd Bowles, this was a rough one. For a head coach that I think had to prove that he was capable of leading a team with this much talent.

Like the one thing during his first stint in New York, there was a lot of turmoil in the locker room. They didn't get the most out of that talent. So there were questions. And there were multiple examples of him kind of mismanaging a game and losing a game for the Jets. Now we're starting to see it with Tampa Bay. and if Tom Brady, if this is Tom Brady's last game, or last year, I mean, what incentive do you have if you're Tampa Bay to keep this coaching staff and this team really together? And that's really the key for Todd Bulls having this job. If Tom Brady retires and they move on, I think that ownership starts to look at the head coaching position.

And if they review this last year, they're not going to like what they see. This was like one of the worst coaching choke jobs of the day because the clock management at the end of the game, absolutely. cost them a chance to try to win or avoid overtime. Because when they had the ball on their last drive before they tried to get into field goal range and then weren't able to, they didn't use their timeouts. So then when the Browns come back and score, they have very little time on the, I don't remember how many seconds they had left, but they would have had 40 more seconds to get into field goal range if they'd taken a time out before then.

and if Brady had been able to do that, then they win. Obviously, that's the big piece. But also, they go to overtime. They lose in overtime. They also lose Tristan Worf's in overtime. So the clock management decisions end up costing you one of your best players getting hurt in overtime. And obviously, injuries happen. But that's a pretty direct correlation if you're in that situation.

That's when the guy gets hurt. And then obviously you lose the game because of it. We're not necessarily because of it because we don't know if they would have been able to actually get something out of that extra time. but it seems like they would have had a decent shot too. We've certainly seen Brady do things like that before. And not knowing to do that in that situation, not thinking a drive ahead and not understanding the situation is just inexcusable. And sometimes the stuff with the play calling is a little bit more opaque

because even though I think with them it's pretty obvious, coaches can always pull the stuff of, well, you're not in the meeting room. you don't understand how everything all fits together and what we're talking about and what we're seeing and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. This is just math. This is just numbers. This is just seconds ticking off a clock.

And they didn't think a drive ahead so they didn't call time out so they didn't have extra time to try to go win the game before over time. So I thought that was like inexcusable. Yeah. And then another one, another example of Todd Bulls kind of throwing this game away, fourth and two from your own 37 or from the opposite 37, you take a delay of game. you punt from the 42 yard line when you have the greatest quarterback of all time and all he needs to do is get two yards against a bad defense not only a bad defense a defense that tends to play soft

in general like in the secondary and a defense that you could just run up the middle on and that was that was my big problem with the play calling because I do agree like it's hard to understand why a play is being called but in this game the way they attacked the Brown's run defense just made no sense to me because like the the the weakness is in the middle the defensive tackles soft and quishy tamba bay was running to the outside they're running off tackle all game long and it made no sense whatsoever i it's just just a bad game plan a bad game plan that didn't seem to be based on the team they were playing they're very lucky to be in the nfc south all right let's close it out with uh my last loser let's talk about sunday night football a little bit uh the packers

end up losing 40 to 33 to the Eagles. Aaron Rogers leaves the game. He's dealing with a finger injury and a rib injury. It was described as an oblique injury in the game. There was reporting that he's also dealing with stuff with his ribs. Not clear to me whether those are the same thing or different. Jordan Love comes in. He goes six of nine for 113 yards, a touchdown.

Pass rating was 146.8. You know, take it with the grain of cell. but he looked pretty good. So the piece of this that I'm sort of glossing over is that the Eagles were so dominant running the ball. They had 363 rushing yards, the second most in franchise history, the most since 1948, not a real year. So it didn't really matter for the actual competitiveness of the game. The Philadelphia offensive line was just so,

so phenomenal and Harts also rush for career high, 158 yards, had the single season rushing record for an Eagles quarterback. So just this absolutely dominant performance by Philadelphia on the ground made it all a little bit moot. But I sneaky think that the takeaway from this is what happens going forward at quarterback in Green Bay. And some of that obviously depends on how injured Aaron Rogers actually is. but he was healthy enough to start this game. He was dealing with these injuries at the start of the game, but was able to go.

If that's the same type of situation, they've just seen Jordan Love get in there and look okay. Obviously, there's a lot of baggage surrounding that decision. I don't know what the choice is there, but I know it would be a really, really, really interesting week to be a fly on the wall in Green Bay. Is it that hard of,

a decision. Their playoff odds are down to three, according to 5.30. 3%. There are only six teams with better playoff odds. The Rams are worse. The Rams, the Steelers, the Cardinals, the Bears, the Broncos, and the Texans. Those are like the worst team, the most depressing teams in the league right now. I don't think it's that hard of a decision. Honestly, and I think seeing what you have in Jordan Love makes sense. You're not going anywhere this year. Aaron Rogers is fine. He doesn't need to play the reps. There's no real reason to put him out there other than him wanting to play. And I think that the offense, I mean, they've acquiesced to Aaron Rogers so much and they've made changes to the scheme. I think getting Jordan Love out there would allow them to run Matt LaFleur's scheme. And

if he's going to be your coach long term, which I assume is the thought process in Green Bay, let's let him get a head start on building a foundation for what his offense is going to be in a post Aaron Rogers world because that's coming up in either a year or two. And I think the sooner they start to prepare for it, the better. There is nothing that you've just said that I could argue with for a second. It just all feels so impossible. It just feels like so much sunk cost. Like you've got Randall Cobb out there because he's Aaron Rogers's buddy.

It all sounds just after what they went through last off season, just wild that they might be back in that situation. Maybe the health stuff kind of solves the impasse there. Maybe there isn't an impasse. Maybe Rogers is just done, right? Like, that's the other question is, okay, so they go to love. Do we ever see Aaron Rogers play as the Packer again? Do we ever see Aaron Rogers play football again? Like, neither of those things feels like a done deal. So just looking at where they are as a team and what would be a value to them going forward, everything you're saying is spot on. The best thing to do would be to get a good look at Jordan Love and see what that is. It just feels very fraught. So I'm curious to read what we learn out of Green Bay in the coming

weeks for sure. They have a worse record than the Raiders and a worst point differential. They are a worse team than the team they traded Devante Adams too. And it's not good. Tough scene. All right. Let's close this out with our non-headline of the week. We're going to do some belated Thanksgiving leftovers, let's call it. So, Stephen, what's your top takeaway from one of the Thursday games?

I think my takeaway is that the bills are going to be fine. And I know this is a weird game to say that after. And I think there is a lot of doom and gloom surrounding this team right now, especially in Buffalo, where I think the fans have adjusted to their new life as contender fans. Because they are very pessimistic about this team right now, it seems like. And I understand it because the results haven't looked great over the last couple weeks, over the last month, maybe. But over the last two weeks, they've won two very strange games. Like Thanksgiving games are always hard. and then they played in Detroit against the Browns

in what was basically a road game and they won that game. They're 2-0. Josh Allen, there's been some bad interceptions. There's been some misthrows underneath. But like when he's needed to make throws, he's made the throws. He had the throw to Stefan Diggs

to set up the game winning field goal, which was a throw that only like five guys make. And I think as he gets used to this bulky elbow, whatever you want to call it, that has affected some of his shorter throws. I think he'll get better. And I still maintain that as we get closer to the playoffs, Ken Dorsey is going to start running Josh Allen down near the red zone

and in short yardage and solve a lot of problems we have with this run game right now. And other than the run game, I feel fine about the offense. I feel fine about the receiving core. I feel fine about how the passing game is set up. I feel fine about the defense long term once they get really healthy. Once Trey White starts to play, this was his first game back. I have no problem. I don't worry about this team at all.

Talk to me in January. This is a professional team. This is a team that we can count on. This is a reliable team. They're going to figure things out. It's going to be fine. And when they can win playing their C game, which they've done the last two weeks,

and they did again in Detroit, I think they're going to be fine. So I love that you are taking on the role of podcast optimist. We chose the same game for our Thanksgiving takeaway. mine much less shiny. I feel officially a little bit worried about Josh Allen's elbow after seeing the last two Bill's games because it's just two straight games that he's been uncharacteristically inaccurate on the short underneath stuff.

And that feels like a departure from what we're used to from Josh, how his game normally is. It looks noticeably different. And it's also two straight games where it seems like, he gets better as the game goes on. He needs to sort of get used to it, warm up into it. In the earlier part of that game, they were running him a lot more and a lot of the best plays that they were getting used his legs.

And then he was able by the end of the game to obviously do stuff with his arm. So it feels just like something in the mechanics there is a little bit different than it usually is. And obviously, I am wildly speculating here because I have not been inside Josh Allen's elbow. but they still won very much like your point that it's good to be able to win when you're playing your sea game.

The context with the Thanksgiving game and all the weather stuff and extra travel. That's a thing that matters. But I would call myself officially concerned about this being a thing that is changing just how he controls the football when he's making those short intermediate underneath throws, which I do think matters. Yeah, no, that definitely matters. And it's like, I think we are speculating, but so far since the elbow injury, that's all we see is inaccuracy on short throws. I'm just, I'm optimistic that Dorsey, McDermott, the coaching staff will adjust. And like you said, like the plays early on where when he was using his legs, I think we'll see that more and more.

And I honestly, I think that might keep him healthier, which doesn't really make a lot of sense. but when your elbows hurt, I don't think throwing the football a lot helps a hurt elbow. I'm not a doctor. And I think he can protect himself. And on designed runs, I feel like he can protect himself a little better than he could as a pocket passer,

which is when we see most quarterback injuries. So I wouldn't be surprised if we see a little more run game, a little more quarterback run game, which can replace the quick game, the short stuff on early downs. And that's really where we've seen the problems, like you said. On late downs,

when he has to throw down field, he seems fine. I don't know how long that will last if his elbow gets worse, but for now, it seems fine. So I don't know. I just have faith in this coach and stuff. I think that's right. I do too. And we'll certainly find out. All right. Thank you so much, Stephen. This has been the Ringer NFL Sunday recap show. Next up on the feed, we've got Sheal and Ben with extra point taking their deep dive into week 12. Thank you, as always to Isaiah Blakely for production on this episode and to Arjuna Ramgapal for additional production supervision.