The Ringer NFL Show - Week 13 NFL Power Rankings: The Cowboys and Bengals Make a Big Jump, Plus How Good Are the Jets With Mike White? | Power Rankers

Episode Date: November 30, 2022

Austin is joined by Lindsay Jones to discuss how the NFL power rankings have changed following Week 12. First, they discuss the team of the week, the Chiefs, and what makes their offense so much better than the rest of the league (3:47). Then, they get into the two biggest movers on this week’s rankings, the Cowboys and Bengals, and what prompted their rise (16:20). Later, Steven Ruiz joins the pod to talk Mike White, Justin Herbert, and Russell Wilson (55:30). Hosts: Austin Gayle and Lindsay Jones Guest: Steven Ruiz Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal and Conor Nevins Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The time has come to get ready for the 2022 World Cup. And what better way to prepare than by revisiting the World Cup's most amazing goals? I'm Brian Phillips. I'm making a podcast about the history of the men's World Cup, told through the stories of 22 iconic goals. The show's called 22 Goals. It's out now on the Ringer podcast network, and we're having so much fun. Welcome into the Ringer Power Ranking Show. Austin Gale here with not Jason Gough, not Stephen Louise, one of my favorite people here at The Ringer. I'm so happy to call you a co-worker, Lindsay Jones, who actually edits the Ringer Power Rankings article I write every single week.

She's been working with me all season. I appreciate you so much. I'm finally happy or I'm happy I finally get to podcast with you. Yeah, this is fun. I get like a spoiler edition of the Power Rankings every week to know. And I get to say, hey, maybe this team is a little too high. or maybe this team is a little too low before anybody else gets to yell at you on Twitter. Yeah, yelled at Twitter, yelled at on Twitter every single week.

Gough knows that. Ruiz knows that. And you have always helped me specifically late in the file. And it's like, should this team be that high? Should I move a team around? It's tough, man. You have good convictions on where you think teams should be. I don't know if I've actually moved any teams, but sometimes we'll just say, like, let's, you know, like last week. You know, for example, I don't think this is a team we're going to talk a lot about today.

But last week I said, are you sure you want to have a lot? the Eagles at number one. Are you sure you want to keep them there? And you said, yes, I want to give them one more week. And what did they do this week? They went out and just bullied the crap out of the Packers. That was Sunday night football on Sunday night football. Just beat them up on the ground and deserve to stay at number one. And there's not a lot of other power rankings. I think that still have the Eagles at number one. But you are holding steady there. Have to hold steady. And I think for me, so much of it is how I view the power rankings is not just who will beat who on a neutral field.

And I think that is overvalued in how a lot of people do power rankings because there's only one neutral field game a year. Outside of, obviously, you have the bills and the Browns playing in Detroit. That's kind of wacky. But one neutral field game a year is the Super Bowl. So if you're saying, okay,

if these two teams play in the Super Bowl, maybe you're projecting that, I don't know. I think that can get overvalued at times. It's not just about determining which teams are the best teams, but also are the most powerful teams or the highest strength teams,

whatever, is the teams, for me, best position to win a Super Bowl. And the NFC, Philadelphia Eagles with the record that they have and the Vikings slipping up now 9 to 2. And you have the San Francisco 49ers not with a record that they can get within reach of that one first round by. It is obvious that the Eagles are the best team in the NFC, best team position to win the Super Bowl in that conference. And probably better positioned than the Bill's and Chiefs right now with both those teams still duking it out to have solidified the number one seat. I think a lot of that has changed things. Talking to Eric Eager, a data scientist at PFF, we're still gathering data in the new playoff format.

batting where 14 teams go and you have only one team getting the first round by versus two teams getting the first round by. That first round by when you look at betting odds or any Super Bowl odds model is massive to winning. And I think that's why you have the Kansas Chiefs, the Buffalo Bill still duking out for who gets that Chiefs favorite right now. And then the Eagles, I think blowing away the competition in terms of earning that first round by. So I still think that they are the best team in the NFC position to win the Super Bowl. Now, if the Niners had a better record, or the Dallas Cowboys had a better record, and they had a better line to that first round. They are really, really talented football teams, complete football teams on both sides of ball.

And we'll get into both of those teams, I think, later in the show. Where I wanted to start, though. And I always pick for a team of the week as a team maybe that exceeds expectations or goes into a week with a big game and comes out with a win. This week, I just need to continue to pour praise on the Kansas City Chiefs. The Kansas City Chiefs are the number two team on my list. You could argue they're the best team in the NFL. They're easily, objectively, the best offense in the NFL, continue to do whatever they

want offensively. And I think that is not hyperbole. This team right now is averaging 1.23 EPA per drive. No other team in the NFL is above 0.52. They're more than double the best team, the second best team in the NFL in terms of expected points added per drive. That's Patch Mahomes. In Patchma' home's MVP season in 2018, this offense averaged 1.22 EPA for drive. So it's better than even what Patch Mahomes was in 2018 when he had Tiger Kill when the offense was better and teams weren't playing as much too high. What Mahomes and Amherst and Andy Reid have done to make adjustments to the offense, play a different style of game, and still be the best in the NFL by a significant significant significant margin, I still think I

was on the scramble or not the scramble. The island a few weeks ago with Nora talking about how not enough people are talking about Patrick Holmes. I still feel that way. I still feel that the Chiefs are being underdiscust because they are doing things that no other team in the league are doing from a consistency perspective, explosiveness, efficiency. Any way you look at Mahomes, Reed, this offense is different. And I think everyone else is playing catch up.

Yeah, I think, you know, we might be getting to the point where there's, like, Mahomes' fatigue. And not in the way that there was Brady fatigue and Patriots fatigue, where that was just like, you got to the point that they made the Super Bowl and you'd show up to whatever the Super Bowl city. And I was like, what am I going to write about them now? It's just that our expectations for the chiefs are so high. What it's going to take for Patrick Mahomes, and I've said this on pods before. And, you know, as an MVP voter, it's something that I think about a lot. His bar is so high, right? because of the great heights that he,

when he burst into the, burst onto the NFL, when he won his MVP a couple years ago, he just set that bar so high for himself and the chiefs bar for, um, kind of success and for, not even respectability,

but just like for us to look at them and say, holy shit, like they are doing something incredible. It's just so high because they've been doing it over and over and over again. So I think you're, you're completely right that everybody's kind of sleeping on the chiefs right now. And look, they lost that game to Buffalo,

um, a couple of weeks ago, which, you know, ultimately might, you know, in a month when we're talking about who gets that number one seed. But they have a, they've got an interesting stretch of games coming up. We're going to talk about this a little bit later and when we, spoiler alert about some games of the week and stuff. But a huge game against the Bengals this week. But they've been really fun, you know, as somebody who has way overdrafted Travis Kelsey on one of my fantasy teams.

I just, I just love how he, they just continue to find ways to get open, get him open, and what he does with the ball in his hands at his age. I know there was a lot of kind of concerns going to the season about what would happen to kind of the spacing in the middle of the field and the way that defenses would attack them without Tyree Kill, what that would mean for Travis Kelsey specifically. And what that would win would just, you know, he's getting older, right? I mean, he's been in the league since 2013.

I mean, it's been a minute. But he absolutely is, I mean, he just gets open constantly. And it's been really, really, really, really fun to watch. And they're getting now to the point of the season. where maybe they've had a lot of those kind of one o'clock, you know, those one o'clock games, but they're going to be getting more of these national, you know, the national window games, some primetime games coming up, although I'm hoping they will. I don't think NBC will because they've got a Broncos' Chiefs game in the Sunday night

football in two weeks. And nobody needs to see that. We all want to see Patrick Mahomes, but nobody needs to see. Nobody needs to see Russell Wilson and Nathaniel Hockin in prime time again. So maybe we pull that one out. But they're going to get the chance to show off for a national audience in a way that they maybe haven't over the last two or three weeks. I love that you find ways to bring up the Broncos. I know you're based in Denver, right? I am. Yes, yes.

And you were texting me during, if you could call that a game for the Broncos this past week. Like, they have to be the worst team in the NFL. This team is absolutely horrendous. They just took a... Well, I'm totally taking this podcast off track right now. But the other day, I was driving my daughter home from daycare or something, and I was listening to sports radio. And they were going through all of the power rankings, like, across the internet, you know, NFL network and USA Today and everybody's. And they were like, the ringer is always the highest on the athletic.

They're like, this must be Lindsay Jones's fault. And my daughter's in the backseat laughing going, Mommy, they're talking about you on the radio. And I was like texting, like, voice texting my friend who hosts that show. And I was like, no, no, no, no. This is all Austin Gale. I have nothing to do with the Broncos being at number 26. So when they could not manage, I mean, I think it was when they had only scored three points against the Panthers. I was slacking you on Sunday going, you got to drop them.

You got, you got this is way too high, way too high, you got to drop them. It was easily, and I know we're kind of diverting up the Kansas City Chiefs. I want to go back to the Chiefs a little bit. But for the Broncos, that game is where, I think Kevin Clark brought this up on Slow Newsday with you, is where you started to see defensive players giving up. Like Patrick Sertan isn't playing the ball that you expected him to play. The defense, Mike Purcell specifically, comes off the field, looks Russell Wilson in the face, and says, I think he says, let's fucking go. We need to go.

And Russell Wilson and him both talked about how they're trying to fire each other up and create leadership and all that stuff. But the reason Purcell is doing that is because the offense isn't moving to football. And defensively, there's a lot of frustration. When there's frustration, there isn't as much confidence. And you start to see even that side of the ball, which has been a juggernaut for them this season. The hero of error has been a phenomenal defense coordinator. He maximizes what they have. They haven't even had Rainier Gregory for most of the season.

They're still finding ways to create pressure. without Bradley Chub finding ways to create pressure. This is a very talented defense, a very well-coached defense. And when that starts to fall off, against Sam freaking Darnold and the Panthers, that's where you have to drop on their 29 on my power rankings right now.

I think the only team's lower are the Rams. All I'm saying is they got no shot against the Chiefs in a couple weeks. Oh, not a chance. For the Chiefs, you mentioned Travis Kelsey and them finding ways to get open. I don't think there is a more creative play caller inside the 10-yard line, inside the 20-yard line than Andy Reid, what he does to create easy throws from homes and open throws from homes in that.

area of the football field to maximize the red zone offense is incredible. That involves all their tight ends, no gray, et cetera. Ten different players caught passes in this game. Like, this is a different offense. There are teams that are desperate, desperate for this kind of efficiency with a forts in and any tight end they won. And Skymore now starting to have success as he gets, you know, the rookie out of Western Michigan starts to get more experience. And Travis Kelsey find ways to get open. Rams run two man. Ramsey one-on-one with Travis Kelsey just bullies them to get open for that touchdown. Like Kelsey is still creating separation and man coverage against Jalen Ramsey. It is a really special team.

I wanted to bring up, before we move on to some of my biggest movers, Chiefs didn't move a ton, only still at number two. I watched the run game closely this past week against the Los Angeles Rams because they ran the football a lot more than they have in previous weeks. And one, Isaiah Pacheco, that rookie out of Rutgers, nickname is Pop. You know why? He gets 10 yards of pop.

That's what they've been calling him since Rutgers. And he is a super explosive back. Guess he's wearing number 10. Maybe you see some Tyree Kill shades of him, but runs the football really effectively, really quick feet, really explosive. I think he is a special. special player, that run game can still have success with Clyde Edwards-Layer on the Indy Reserve. And the other thing I notice, too, as I'm pouring over the run or when they're running the

football, first and ten, first and ten, first and ten, second and three, first and ten, second and second. They're only running the ball in these advantageous situations or obvious run situations. They refuse to run the ball on second and long. On second and six or longer, the chiefs have run the ball or just called design run, some of these are Patrick Mahomes, but design runs 20% of the time. It's the second lowest rate in the NFL. They also lead the league in success rate on second and long. Now, a lot of that's Patrick Mahomes, a lot of that's having a really good passing offense.

But the Bucks don't run the football on second and long. The chargers don't run the football on second and long. They don't know that. The difference is, and why Patrick Mahomes and why the Chiefs are having efficiency, is they're able to push the ball down field on second and long and still attack the sticks, right? The average air yards to the sticks on second and long for the chiefs this year is around negative two yards. So on average, two yards short of the sticks. for the chargers in the box, another team that don't run the football a lot,

more than four yards behind the six. So yes, you tip your cap to a Byron Leffridge. Tip your cap to Joe Lombardi that they're not calling second and long runs that you know are highly inefficient. To be fair. But they're still just throwing the football by the Lions Cribut. Tip your cap to Joe Lombardi. That was the first time that phrase has ever been uttered on the ringer NFL feed

for the record and it will never happen again. It's in jest. It's in sarcasm. A lot of it is sarcastic because Lombardi and Leffield. which, aware that they shouldn't be running the football on second and long, aware that they should not be giving up on that point of series. And then they just throw short. But still calling a lot of shallow stuff, not maximizing what they have in those situations.

It's concerning. And they have good quarterbacks. That's Tom Brady or Justin Herbert. And you still have office coordinators that are limiting the offenses in these second long situations. It's a big reason why when you look at a big stat that everyone talks about, EPA in early downs, EPA and early downs. That's the success you run the football, running the football on first down. And that's, one, how often you call runs on second down and how often you push

the ball down field on second down. And those two teams, Chargers and Buck specifically are struggling on that second part, struggling to end some of that personnel, whatever it may be, the offensive line. But, man, chiefs are doing it different. And every shape or every phase of the game right now offensively, they just, they can't miss. So before we move on to the biggest movers, I just have one question for you, specifically about the power rankings, because we've gone way into why they're so good on offense.

Why are they not your number one team? It's a good question. Some of me wants to wait, wants to wait to see the eagle slip. up and the Eagles show that if a defense takes this away, Perch will struggle, the offense will struggle, or defensively them start to slip. I just haven't seen

that from the Eagles, right? I think for the Kansas City Chiefs, it's still a bad defense. It's still a defense. The Titans this week, that could happen. Yes, yes. I think the Eagles this week against the Titans are six and a half-point favorites. Maybe that line has been closer to five and a half. That's a team that you go back, we're going to talk about Cincinnati

Bengals later. They play physical no matter what. Doesn't matter what personnel they have. They're going to play physical brand of football. And if you're not ready for it, both offensively and defensively, it can hit you in the mouth. Hit you the mouth to a point where you drop a game. And for the Eagles, the margin for error is still wide. The trenches are better in Philadelphia. I think the supporting cast is better around Jill and Hurdson what they have in Kansas City.

I like what they have in AJ Brown, Devante Smith, Dallas Goddard when healthy. Defensively, adding Limbaugh, adding in Domicong, Sue, I don't think solves any of the problems for the Eagles, but I still think it's a better defense of what the Kansas Chiefs are putting out. They still can't create pressure. George Corloftus is hitting that rookie wall. in my opinion, Chris Jones is the only, like, legitimate pass thrusher the Kansas City Chiefs have. And if you, if they don't, if they don't get into shootouts, I worry about this, you know, this Chief's defense necessarily, you know, if they don't win in the final minutes of games,

I worry about this Chief's defense against some of the offenses more than I do Philadelphia. Now, Eagles drop a game against Tennessee and Chiefs continue to roll. I think that can flip. And we'll see if that ultimately pans out. Wait, wait, sorry, I have one more Chief's question for you. Yes. Does the fact that Patrick Mahomes and his wife, Brittany, had a baby, yesterday and named him bronze,

how does that impact how you feel about the chiefs? It's a big negative. No, I'm just kidding. I don't know. Bronze is a weird name. He's actually Patrick Mahomes the third, but they're calling him bronze. Their daughter is Sterling.

And then their dogs are also named after medals. Wait, okay. Give me a second here. So his name is Patrick Mahomes the third. Yeah, because our Patrick Mahomes is the second. Bronze is a third place. metal. I kind of can see that. I can see that. Is the daughter's name actually named Sterling? Sterling? No, her name is Sterling. Yeah. I don't know. I don't really understand it. I can't

dip my toes into it. I don't have any kids. Super well done by the Mahomes is to, I'm sure they scheduled this to have this baby be born on Monday and not. I think he was actually due on like the day of the or the weekend of this Bengals game. So they got it done. But I saw the bronze name and I was like, that's a, I mean, it's a lie. You know, they have a metallic theme and good for you for lean in and do your theme, I guess. What a weird theme. I think before I can really comment on bronze, sterling, the dogs even being named metals, I need to know why.

You know, what's the why behind the metals theme? I think that's more important than even the, you know, the specific metals that they're leveraging there. Biggest mover. Names, baby names specifically. No, Dallas Cowboys. and the Cincinnati Bengals both moved up four spots in this week's rankings move. Dallas Cowboys go from 8 to 4. Bengals moved from 12 to 8.

Starting with the Cowboys, since Dak Prescott has come back healthy, this is the third-ranked team in offensive EPA per drive. You have only the Chiefs and Dolphins ahead of what the Cowboys are doing with Prescott back healthy. And that includes that first game from Dak where he didn't look himself and that week seven game, you thought, okay, still some growing pain, still recovering the injury. Since then, he's been phenomenal. defensively, it's the best past defense in the NFL since Jack has come back.

Like Michael Parsons, Trayvon-Dick, this is a very, very, very talented offense. When you look at the offensive line, they don't even have Tyrone Smith healthy and still Tyler Smith, the rookie out of Tulsa having success at left tackle, Connor McGovern having success, Tyler Beattish, the center. Obviously, Zach Martin, one of the best guards in the NFL, if not the best guard in the NFL right now. This is a complete team.

As much as we talk about the Philadelphia Eagles and the NFC, having talent on both sides of all and having Marjorie, The Alts Cowboys are right there now that Dak Prescott's back. And they haven't had a fully healthy receiving court and they still had success. They haven't had a fully healthy backfill and they've had success. Offensive line, like I said, Tyrant Smith still waiting to come back. Defensively, they've had to move Michael Parsons around due to injury. Like they are finding ways on both sides of all, not just to be good, but to be dominant in recent weeks.

I think when you look at this most recent game on Thanksgiving against the Giants, Cowboys win 28 to 20. Technically a one-score game, but I think you saw the Cowboys really handle the New York Giants. and in that game specifically, 39 design runs. For the most of any team on the week, you saw them commit to pounding the football

and leaning on the offensive line. I think Zeke averaged more than five yards McCarrie, Tony Pollard didn't have the same success. They even involved CD-Land, Peyton Hendersonshot, Henderson had that run for a score. They were doing some creative things running the football, did not throw the football a ton. My question is, as good as this team is,

and I moved them from number eight to number four, I came away looking at the game plan offensively for the Dallas Cowboys with meat on the bone. I think we were talking a little bit before, and you're like, yeah, there's meat on the bone. I think there are plays where third and eight, Max Protect, two guys running curl routes and both are covered in man coverage. When you're going against a giant defense that does not have the dogs to do it,

doesn't have the dogs to stick with you in man coverage, you're not covering specifically, you're not calling specifically man beaters really until late in the game where they got in control in the second half. I don't know. I think this Dallas Cowboys team is good, number four team in the NFL. Because a lot of the talent that they have and what Dak Prescott brings to the offense, and it still has me on the bone. I still think it can be better if, you know, they don't play down to their competition.

I think they did that early in this game and actually start to have success, game planning for opposing defenses. Wing Martindale might have the easiest defense to game plan against in the NFL. He's going to blitz. He's going to call man coverage. And he doesn't have the dogs on the back end to really call a lot of man coverage. In this game, a lot of defensive backs that people would have struggle, you know, to name, you know, calling, you know, going man coverage against Michael Gallup and Cid Lamb.

and they still weren't able to have maybe the dominant, dominant success they could have in this one. I move them from 8 to 4. I think they're one of the best five teams in the NFL. Talent alone, I think, puts them in that position. Dak Prescott being healthy puts in that position. But am I wrong to say maybe just offensively that there is meat on the bone for this offense to get even better

if it starts to really hone in on what they do well and call good games? Yeah, I mean, I think so. You know, I think at some point they're going to get Tyrone Smith back, which would be huge. I mean, a few months ago, it seemed like, there was no chance that was going to happen, but I think it's trending that direction that at some point,

especially as they get to the postseason, which would change that offensive line a little bit. I went back and I looked, so you dropped them to eight after that loss to the Packers a couple weeks ago. So now the fact that you have them back up to four, which I think that's the highest they've been all year, right? Four has got to be the highest.

So you look back and say, okay, what we saw against the Packers specifically with their defense in that game was kind of just a blip. I don't know how much. of it is a blip, or I think the Green Bay Packers specifically came in with the game plan that the Dallas Cowboys weren't ready for. They attacked the edge of the defense. They made their defensive backs tackle. Anthony Brown, I think, left the game at half with concussion. Forced Calvin

Joseph playing that game, and he had a tackle in the second half, and they just didn't have it, right? And in that game offensively, I think they were leading by two scores in the third, if not the fourth quarter, probably should close out that game, but the Green Bay Packers were able to crawl back into it. I think a lot of that, again, is because stepping on the throat isn't something that they've been able to do, even in this giant's game, stepping on the throat and really putting games away, hasn't been something they've been able to do. I think it's because they're not taking, at least offensively, not taking the easy things that

defenses are giving to them. We just saw this Green Bay Packers' defense look pillow soft against the run most recently and really struggle in the Dallas Cowboys. We weren't able to have that success all the way through fourth quarters. In this game, the Green Bay, or the New York Giants, had Cordell Flot, a rookie third rounder, Nick McLeod, a former UDFA signed by the Bill in 2021. He played 75, a career high, 75 snaps on Thanksgiving.

Micah McFadden, rookie fifth round linebacker. You're just making people up at this point. I'm convinced. They did not have, you know, people on the back end to legitimately play coverage against his team. And still, it wasn't, it was only in spurts that I think you saw the offense actually called to their strengths. And, you know, there's a Dalton Schultz touchdown where obvious man coverage look, you, you're in the red zone, runs a cornerout, you're wide open. They double CD lamage, wide open. Like, that stuff is easy. That's what should have, that game should have been all, that's what should have been happening all game. You know,

there's a play where they send seven at Dak Prescott on third and eight. Well, the two outside receivers, only two on a route. Both run crows, both against man coverage. Both are held up, incomplete pass. One of those seven players was Danny Shelton, who I don't even think should be on a field, let alone on a field in passing. I had no idea he was still in the NFL. This, in my opinion, is, is extremely concerning in terms of playing down to the competition. and letting Flot, Darnay Holmes, Jason Peanock, a

20-21 5th, right? Like, all these guys, you know, play to the levels that I don't think the Cowboys are better than that. There were so many times in this game where I think it was

Urban Meyer, maybe not the best person to bring up possibly, but there was a clip on YouTube that goes around about him talking about the defense or talking about offensively playing

find the fish. And find the fish is pick which defensive back sucks or which linebacker sucks and just continually target him. Find the fish. Find the fish. This entire Giants

defense is fishing. They're injured to them back in. Dory Jackson isn't playing. Julian loves probably their best, you know, their best secondary, especially with Xavier McKinney out. And there's a fish every single play and the Dallas Cowboys offense just didn't look easy. That is the reason maybe I have concern. Maybe San Francisco passes them up on this list. I know I'm talking negatively about the, about the Cowboys after moving them up from eight to four. But I think it just goes to show just how talented this Cowboys team is and how much faith I have in, regardless of what the offensive

design is, regardless of what, you know, how they're calling the game, Dak Prescott, Cedney Lamb, Michael Gallup, Tony Pollard, this offensive line, Zeke, and defensively, with all the stars they have on that side of the ball, they're going to find a way to get done, regardless of Mike McCarthy, regardless of what they're doing offensively. That's kind of where I stand. Well, we'll see if by next time that you are writing your power rankings, if O'Dell Beckham Jr. might be a cowboy. Jerry Jones is doing the hard sell right now on Beckham and trying to get him there. He's doing radio interviews. I know they're courting him. Do you think

adding Beckham would solve some of those issues that you see with the explosiveness at their offense? I don't know. I think maybe, right? But even, it wasn't a problem in terms of getting separation against his defense. Like, you go to any of these plays where they're sending six,

sending seven, Jalen Smith is biting on play action literally to the echo the whistle. Like, like, Dak Prescott's sitting up to drop back and Jalen Smith still thinks it's a run. And still, and still you're not seeing that, from a play calling standpoint, but Kellamore, the office coordinator, you're not seeing them maximize that. You're not seeing them,

oh shit, they're really struggling against play action. Let's continue to lean into that and watch CELAM beat up on Nick McLeod. Instead, it's max protect maybe when they don't have to, not getting the ball up quick enough, not enough quick game, not enough things, you know, attacking some of the other needs. And that for me isn't solved by OBJ. Maybe that encourages Kellan Moore to, you know, call more things to him and it does, you know, add more athleticism, depending on what OBJ has left. But I think there's more issues with how Moore is calling games, or how more specifically called this game against Giants and even late in the game against Green Bay Packers,

that is the concern. I don't know if necessarily it is personnel. Other team I want to bring up, Cincinnati Bengals, they move from 12 to 8. I'll try and be less negative. I think I was too negative on the Cowboys there, but still, I have concerns with how they're calling the offense. For the Bengals, 2016 win over the Tennessee Titans on the road.

Every single game feels like a playoff game from Cincinnati Bengals down the stretch. I have one of the hardest schedules remaining in the NFL. I think 538 right now after a win over Tennessee gives them a 74% chance to make the playoffs. But they have to face Kansas City and Cleveland, both at home, but still two tough teams. Cleveland obviously have Watson back.

And then go on the road to take on Tom Brady in the box. And they still have a game left against the Ravens, right? At the very end of the year? And I think they also play the bills at the end. They might have the bills later in the season as well. If they come out of this next three-game stretch, one and two, say they drop one to the chiefs, one of the box, or however it may be,

those playoff odds sink, right? Every single games is nearly a playoff game of Cincinnati Bengals, and they're going to have one of the toughest remaining schedules, but they go to Tennessee, they handle their business. Lou and Arummo, who I think gets, people pour praise on Big Lou every single week on this podcast feed. I'm going to continue to do it. They go into this game, they say, we're not going to let Derek Henry beat us. How?

We're going to put three fat guys in the middle of the tackles on every first out. And, you know, yes, DJ Reader is talented. BJ Hill, I think, is an underrated defense player for the Cincinnati Bengals. But so much of this is also just like, we are committing to put. putting worse pass rushers on the field on early downs because we know you want to run the football. We've all heard the postgame speech where Mike Mabel says the only difference between us and the rest the NFL is Derek Henry. And they're going to go into every single game and they're going to be like, yeah, we're going to try

and run the football in early downs. We're going to try and get Derek Henry involved. Since San Diego said, no, we are going to specifically not just game plan against that, leverage personnel against that. More Sam Hubbard, more Cam Sample, more of these different guys. And that, for me, is a testament to flexibility. and variability that maybe is starting to seep into the offensive side of the ball, right? Luana Rumo has always been willing to be multiple, always been willing to say this week,

we're going to play, you know, bare fronts on early downs. Next week, we're going to run pure pass rushes. We're going to do completely different things every single week depending on the opposing offense. Offensively, Zach Taylor has been reluctant to do that. I think in previous years, it runs a lot of 11 personnel, wants to, you know, wants to run on early downs. Now this year, they're running more gap stuff. They're having more success running the football. You know, they are, in my opinion, and Zach Taylor specifically are more multiple this year than they were last year. And that willingness to adjust on both sides of all, Lou and Aramu kind of leaning the charge there, I think makes the Bengals arguably a better Super Bowl contender this year than they were last year. And that, I think,

is a product offensively at least. Lou and Rumo is just doing it because Big Lou is in his bag every single week. Zach Taylor has to do it because he's got Trent Irwin, who, this isn't true, but I say it every week, is Steve Irwin's son. He might be. I don't know. Steve Irwin's son is out there and he's throwing go balls up to him, and they have to adjust the office because Jamar Chase is sidelined with an injury. They have to adjust the offense because Joe makes him a sideline to an injury.

And that, I think, has elevated Joe Burrow's game. He's had to be better specifically on money down. It's better checking the football down. And it's made Zach Taylor in the office better. Don't ask Joe Burrow about that, though. Did you hear that clip this week where I think it was post game. It was either post game or Monday. It must have been post game.

Somebody, one of the reporters in Cincinnati, asked Joe Burrow what he learned about himself while Jamar Chase has been out. And he goes nothing. Oh, wow. I'm the guy I thought I was. Oh, my God. I love that confidence.

I think the press conferences this year, or maybe just this week, has specifically brought in a lot of confidence. We have Brandon Cooks come out. They ask him like, what did you feel like you were outmatched? It's like, tell the truth week. When did you feel like you were outmatched as soon as I woke up or as soon as we stepped on the football field?

Tyler Murray, who I think his comments are being blown out of proportion. Like, they asked him specifically about the fourth downplay. They obviously had the RPO sniffed out. They were schematically fucked, as Kyle Murray put it. Now, every single outlet has a quote graphic of that and is extrapolating that to him kind of speaking to the Kyla Murray offense. I think it's more of, it's not surprising that they were schematically fucked because the Arizona was schematically fucked for a while now.

And like a lot of that stuff has become predictable with Cliff Kingsbury. That relationship, I think Ian Rappaport reported there is some tense. It's tense. The relationship is tense. And it's a great time to have, we have talked about Cardinals. You think the two guys who've been on camera yelling at each other on the sideline every single week. The relationship is tense?

You think it is? Yeah, yeah. Kyler Murray yelling at Cliff Kingsbury. a few weeks ago is objectively worse than what Purcell was doing with Russell Wilson. The worst part of the Purcell Russell Wilson argument was that Nathaniel Hackett just listened to it and was not paying attention to Purcell and Russell Wilson just yelling at each other. For Cliff and Kyler, it's obvious that there's disconnect.

There's obvious that there's disjoint. It's too horizontal of an offense for the NFL. I've said that from day one. It's two horizontal of an offense for the NFL. They need to find ways to push the ball downfield, have high average depth of the target with a quarterback that can do it. And I think I'm excited that the kind of Kingsbury area could be coming to an end after what, they're going to finish their fourth consecutive season without a

playoff win. That, in my opinion, is concerning. Back on the Bengals. Give me your opinion of the Bengals. I think Luan Rumo's great. I think Zach Taylor has adjusted as well. Without Jamar Chase, they found new ways to move the football down the field. I think that the Bengals' best offensive plays are still go balls where their big receivers commit OPI, like T. Higgins still on that touchdown, but still,

they have found ways to be more successful running gap schemes and even with Samajai Pee by breaking tackles against a very good Titans defense. I'm impressed with how much the Bengals have found ways to be both sides of the ball. And I think they're a better Super Bowl contender this year than they were last year. I am way more high on them than the Ravens. And I get all the numbers, right? And we look at the strength of schedule and remaining games and all that sort of stuff. The Ravens have an easier

path to win that division. I know you have them higher in your rankings, because largely because of that, right, because of the remaining schedule and their likelihood of winning that division, hosting a playoff game, all that sort of stuff. But the Bengals, I don't think have peaked yet. They've been getting better week after week after week. They're showing us that they can win in a lot of different ways. And I am jacked up beyond all belief for their game against the Chiefs this week. I can't wait to see what Big Lou is going to throw out there. If you remember what he did and what the Bengals defense did in the second half of the

AFC championship game last year, where that was a game that the Chiefs dominated for the first half of that game. They lost that game right before halftime when they got too cute. They did that little whatever that little. like swing pass thing to Tyree Kill was they got too cute in the red zone, didn't, came away with no points right before the half. And then Big Lou completely changed up their game plan in the second half and just completely confused, frustrated, shut down the chiefs in the second half. So I'm very interested to see what he's going to throw out this weekend.

But the Bengals have been progressing week after week. They're getting better. They're finding different ways to win. They're building confidence in some of their other players. T. Higgins has been awesome. He looks like a number one. He's been playing like a true number one while Jamar Chase has been out, which is only going to benefit them in the near future when Chase is back, which could be this week, right? I mean, I think he was close to playing last week.

So, you know, at some point, those games that they lost early in the season are going to come back and bite them when it comes to playoff positioning. But if you had to make me pick one of the teams in the AFC North, I'm picking the Bengals like eight times out of ten over the Ravens right now, given what we're seeing. over the last few games. For me, I think the confidence I have in the Cincinnati angles where it's improved the most is the coaching staff. Lou Anirumo has me more and more convinced he should be in, you know, head coaching conversations every single week. Zach Taylor has done things in terms of adjusting the offense

that he simply has not done in previous years, where he said, I am going to finally look at the personnel that we have, the offensive line that we have, and make changes based on that, and make changes based on the opposing defenses. And that has led to success. Now, what I will say is this. Cincinnati Bengals aren't winning three games in the playoffs to go to a Super Bowl again if they aren't healthy.

Like, they need Jamar Chase back. They can't have Trent Irwin out there being the guy on money downs. They need... They're not going to get Chedobie at Wuzier back at Outside Corner. They need Cam Taylor Britt at Nebraska to come in and make plays at Outside Corner. They need Eli Apple to come in and make plays outside corner. Like, the personnel is still concerning,

specifically on the back end. Both those two outside cornerbacks, Eli Apple, and Cam Taylor Britt had an easy slate against the Tennessee Titans' offense that doesn't have legit, legit, receiving talent. I think the best receivers, Traylon Burks, he's still a rookie. For the offense, Jamar Chase's coming back is massive.

They're going to need to get into shootouts to win games because I still think Lou Anirumo, as good as he's been, doesn't have the personnel without Chedobio Ouzier to be the juggernaut defense he's capable of, still can limit a team, still can obviously hold the Titans what they did, what, 16 points in that game.

The one thing I'll mention on the Titans then I want to get into the I don't know what I'm doing segment, everyone's favorite segment on the show. Titans won, desperately, desperately, this Zach Cunningham. I think they put him on the injured reserve after week nine. He's the other offball linebacker next to David Long, who if you haven't watched David Long, former West Virginia player, undersized linebacker.

I think he has under 10 percentile arm length, under 10 percentile weight, under 10 percentile height. Probably the best undersized linebacker I've ever seen play. Like every single undersized linebacker that goes to the NFL that says their arms are too short, they're too likes to play in the game. David Long plays with an aggressionist and a physicality and a gumption that you need to play in the NFL at any size at offball linebacker. but you combine that with obviously having the speed being a smaller guy.

I think he's a phenomenal player. But Dylan Cole, Monty Rice, for two linebackers that are playing next to him now, got exposed to him against Samajai in this gap scheme against Cincinnati. And then offensively, Todd Downing, former offensive play card for the Raiders now calling players

with Tennessee Titans. I just don't think he has it when he needs to have it, right? You look at situationally that last drive for the Tennessee Titans. They're trailing by seven. Early down run, first down. They've been stopping all game.

Guess what he does? Calls it again. No game. Second and ten. they call some weird stupid screen to Dantre Hillier to the right, where even the Titans' offensive players were, like, giving up on it because the bagels had it sniffed out, and they still, Ryan Tannhill still threw it,

and it was like a loss of five. Then third and long, sense of a long third down, doesn't trust Tannenhill to push it beyond the six, calls the play to where you can get some underneath stuff, set up a better field goal. Set up a better field goal for what? Going from seven to four, now they trail by four, they don't get the ball back and they lose that game.

Todd Downing, in my opinion, is not a phenomenal situational play caller, when he needs to be great, when you need to turn it on, when you need to say, no, Mike Raeball, the biggest difference between us and Derek Henry isn't it right now. We need to have a play. We need to find a play. We need to dial something up. I don't think Toddowning has that.

That concerns me for the Tennessee Titans prospects moving forward. If you do put them behind the sticks and you do sell out to stop the run. All right. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what I'm doing with the New York Jets, Lindsay. I have them at 14. I think that you could argue that they're better than the Patriots. I have them behind the Patriots now.

They did lose the Patriots twice. But now they got Mike White. Mike White, any statistic you look at, I find hilarious how many people look for every statistic possible to show, just how bad. Zach Wilson was compared to what Mike White has done in the limited starts that he had. Mike White looks good. And I think the biggest winner of benching Zach Wilson for Mac White, not even having him

dress. How embarrassing is that? Like, he's not even dressed. He's not even the backup. The biggest winner is Mike Lafleur. Michael Fleur, I think, called the game and he was like, holy shit, the ball's going where it should. Like, holy shit, like, he's getting to his job and just getting the ball out.

Like the middle of the field, anything that's, like, beyond a two or three yard like dump off is now, like, back in the playbook. It was insane. And you saw him like call the game with more confidence as it progressed, as Mike White progressed, and he grew more confidence, a guy that hasn't started yet this season. Mike Lafleur is exhaling.

The offensive line is exhaling. Every receiver is like celebrating, partying for the fact that, you know, the ball's going to come out on time and doesn't come out with action. He's actually going to push it at the ball down field. I think the Jets could be better than 14th. I still think my priors are, I can't forget what Zach Wilson is to this offense. I can't forget how bad the offense is. But they didn't even have, you know, Bam, Mike,

rookie at NC State was running the ball in this game because Preythal still injured and all that stuff and he was even having success in this offense the Jets look

objectively better with Mike White so much that maybe I dump my priors with Zach Wilson and if you think that Mike White can even be a league average

quarterback. Obviously this past week 0.65 EPA dropback, the best of any quarterback in the NFL in week 12, I don't think that's

going to happen every single week. Yeah, they get to play the Bears. Defense and injured, yeah, an injured bear's defense every single week. But even if Mike White

is average, which is an, it's an average name, it's fitting. His name's not bronze. If it's an average game or an average play from Mike White with the defense and how successful they've been, this is a legitimate, legitimate team. I don't know. I think I might have the Jets too low. Yeah, it's weird. I mean, so you have them at 14. They were at 15 last week against that dreadful game against the Patriots where they couldn't score and couldn't move the ball at all that led to the Zach Wilson benching. So you only bumped them up just a little bit. And I,

you know, I think it is important to, you know, go back to the way that you do these rankings and that you lean very heavily on playoff odds and what their postseason potential looks like, you know, taking schedules and all those things into account. Because I think what we're seeing on a week-to-week basis, I mean, they are a good team who is being visibly held back by the worst quarterback or one of the worst quarterbacks week. I think we could probably call them the worst quarterback in the league. was Zach Wilson. So now you get potentially a functional quarterback who, I think Sunday against the Bears,

we shouldn't expect him to be that quarterback every week. But I think his floor is probably higher than what we were seeing out of Zach Wilson. I will say he did have a four interception game last year. He had his like bonkers breakout game. I'm talking about Mike White, had his bonkers breakout game against the Bengals. And then a couple weeks later through four picks, just a couple weeks later. So there probably will be a big dip. There will be some lows that are going to come with this.

But the rest of that roster is really good. Their offensive line is good, good to very good. Their defense is excellent. So, you know, I think just with competent quarterback play, I think they're, you know, a team that I would probably put above the Patriots and maybe above the Seahawks. And then there's another team that we're going to talk about here in a second that you have way, way, way too high.

Yes, I'm in agreement with you. I know exactly what team you're talking about. But the Jets, I agree. I think they're not a guarantee to make the playoffs. Mike White has to do it more than just once. But probably if Mike White, again, even the progression is just to average, they're better than the Patriots,

better than the Patriots, better than the next team I'll bring up, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. I think I'm too high on Tampa Bay Buccaneers. But here's the problem. The NFC South is horrid. Like they're going to win the NFC South. I think I heard Bill on his podcast saying, I don't know, I can see the Panthers coming back.

Sam Donald was like, no, stop, stop, no. The Tampa Bay Buccaneers barring a collapse that Bulls, Todd Bulls, the head coach to Tampa Bay and Offscore to Brian left, which aren't even capable of, in my opinion. This is a collapse. The size of this collapse would have to be historic. But the Tampa Bay Buccaneers right now, 70% chance to make the playoffs,

6% to 9% chance to win the division according to 538. And if they go at home and beat the season, Saints, those odds improve over 80%. And like, it's handle your business. Handle your business. Beat up on the Saints and you're in the playoffs. That, in my opinion, has them in this tier of flawed playoff contenders. They are flawed payoff contenders.

You know why they're flawed? Todd Bowles can't call a game. Like, legitimately, the clock management, the game management is horrendous. His excuse for not calling a timeout late in that game was awful. Didn't want to throw a pick? It made no sense. It makes no sense what you're doing. It just admit, it was similar to Jeff Saturday's excuse.

You know, it was like, oh, we had plenty of timeout. Jeff Saturday and his excuse for why he didn't call a timeout, in that Monday night game against the Pittsburgh Steelers was, well, we had plenty of timeouts, time was an issue, you had plenty of timeouts. That means call fucking one of them. Like, you had a lot of them. Like, you almost had too many, my guy, you have to call. And so you have coaches that objectively Saturday, I think bowls right now, still learning clock management, still learning game management, when to call timeouts, when to do these different things, when to go for it on fourth down. And then Byron Lefich, who, every single week,

Buccaneers fans, Buccaneers analysts, or Buccaneers media, is looking at what Lefwich is doing from a conservatism standpoint and from a predictability standpoint and just laughing, like absolutely laughing. It's a guy who does not know or understand fully EPA or expected points out of a guy that does not understand that you don't have to run the football successfully to have success running play action. This is a coaching staff that is struggling. I agree with you.

I'm too high, but they're not losing the NFC South. I still stand by the fact that this is going to be one of the 14 teams in the playoffs. And if you are putting out power rankings that has a team that is in the playoffs outside the top 14 teams, I think you're crazy. That's not what the game is. The game isn't like, well, if the bucks didn't win all those games, they wouldn't have made the play. I don't know.

Yeah, I mean, and that's where we get into. And you and I have this discussion offline pretty regularly just about like the philosophy behind a power rankings. And I've done them for years and years and years. I voted on them at USA Today. I wrote them at the athletic for many, many years. And, you know, there's a lot of different ways that you can do them. You know, ultimately, I think looking at how well positioned is this team to,

win the Super Bowl is a pretty good way to do it. Because if you start looking at, well, who did they beat recently? And then you start doing the like the transitive property of team X beat team Y, who beat team B, who'd beat team D. Like, you get into this really weird. You can get into this really weird place. It's just really hard to see the bucks at number 11 when our eyes are telling us week after week after week that this is one of, that this is a very mediocre to bad team. They are not one of the 11 best teams in the league. But ultimately, we're going to get to a place in a month from now, or a little less five to six weeks from now, where they're going to be playing probably on a Saturday afternoon in January or maybe Saturday night because TV is going to want to have at least Tom Brady on their screen. So they're going to be playing in one of those wild card weekend games where there's some teams that are probably better, you know, specifically AFC teams that aren't going to make the playoffs just because the numbers aren't going to work in their favor.

I don't even think it's that bold of a prediction to say the Bucks are going to win a playoff game this year. So if you go to 538's model or playoff predictions model, you can go through the rest of the season and the rest of the season. Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to bucket bet against Tom Brady in a wild card game, but...

Exactly, exactly. I might. I say the Buccaneers beat the Saints this week. They beat the Saints at home. And then lose to the Nires, Bengals, and Cardinals. They lose to the Cardinals, who you could argue a terrible team,

but just beat up on the Panthers and the Falcons at the end of the season. and they make the playoffs. They're a playoff team. So they get lose to all the good teams remaining on their schedule and they're still a playoff team. And then guess who Tom Brady

and the Bucks are going to go against? Maybe the commanders, the Seahawks, the Giants. They're going to have, it's going to be Brady versus Daniel Jones. Brady versus Gino Smith. Like there's at home.

Like there's a good chance that the Bucks are playing in the second round of the playoffs with how the schedule has paned out. They almost certainly will be the four seed, right? So they would probably play the five, right?

And that wild card game, which right now that's the Cowboys. True. A Cowboys Brady start would be a tough one. I think that could be a first round. We saw that game in week one when the Cowboys' offense just didn't know what they were doing at all. I think the Cowboys' offense is significantly better, despite the concerns that we had that we talked about earlier, significantly better now than they were in week one.

And I think the Buck's defense is significantly worse now than they were in week one. So, yeah, I mean, it's just seeing them at 11. It's not like, like Austin, do we need to rain it in a little bit? I mean, I get it because of, you know, playoff pictures and all that kind of stuff. But they absolutely could lose to the Saints this week. And I think the Saints are hot garbage. True. This week at home against the Saints.

Saints are terrible. Dennis Allen's probably getting fired at the end of the season. You think they might fire him. We can't have that many one-and-duns. I don't know. I think that- He's like a Saints guy. Yeah.

I don't know. Sean Payton's not walking back. that door. Yeah, I like Dennis Allen. I'm a Dennis Allen truther. I think the defense that they've had, even with the talent that they've had, I think is to see the expectations. I think offensively, maybe they move on from Carmichael. I don't know. Something has to change, right? They can't go into next season with what they have. Now, they don't have the resources necessary to significantly improve,

but I think they have to see some positive change in the right direction. I don't know if that's necessary Dennis Allen or moving up from Carmichael or moving on from Dalton. We'll end up seeing how they move forward. But the bucks are only a three and a half point favorite against that bad football team. At home, which I think does show, you know, how bad. I will say this. And this is the last point I'll make on the Bucks, and I want to talk about the Ravens real quickly. No staff in the NFL is doing less with more than the Bucks. I think my least favorite excuse about the Bucks not playing well this year is that the supporting cast is taking a step back

because Grancowski isn't there and the injuries along the offensive line. This is still a good offensive line. Donovan Smith and Tristan Worf's are good. Like those tackles are good. You know how many teams the NFL would pray to God to have Tristan Worves and Donovan Smith on their bookends? A lot. A lot of freaking teams. And then you look at defensively, they still have Carlton Davis, still have Antoine Winfield Jr. They still have talent defensively. Yeah, they've underperformed versus their talent. Chris Godwin is still a really good receiver in the state.

They have who... This is a good football team. It's better weapons than Tom Brady had for a lot of years in New England, or at least the later years. Exactly. The later years in New England. So it's just hard to put them down with the talent that they have. And I'm still buying Brady.

I'm buying Brady over Rogers. I think Brady has had more success in season or still looks to part more than what Aaron Rogers has been. It'll be interesting to see how the buck shape out down the stretch here. Not necessarily a cupcake schedule, but they should win against New Orleans at home, favorite by three and a half. They should beat the Arizona Cardinals on the road.

They should beat the Panthers. It should be the Falcons. Could close out the season with some wins. Look, I don't actually gamble. My daughter makes picks, but I don't actually put money on games ever. But, like, I would want no part of betting on the bucks. The rest of the way.

That's true. No, thank you. All right. Real quickly on the Ravens, then we'll talk your game of the week, this upcoming week, and then we'll bring in Cim Ruiz to talk some quarterback rankings.

But the Baltimore Ravens, I have at nine. I put them behind the Cincinnati Bengals. I dropped them pretty significantly. There were weeks where I felt they're the third best team in the AFC and wasn't close, right, behind the Buffalo Bills and the Kansas Chiefs. And a lot of that is because of Lamar Jackson. I said it week in and week out. Lamar Jackson, though the betting odds would never respect this,

should be the number two MVP candidate behind Patrick Holmes. What he's doing to keep the Baltimore Ravens alive is absolutely sensational given Rashop Baton being her great Roman still struggling to develop a drawback passing game. They're throwing the screens to Patrick Hart on second and 14. I mean, this is an offense that is not maximizing its talent. We wanted to make fun of Kellyn Moore before. Greg Roman is not maximizing its talent here. They've had injuries at running back and receiver that have really plagued them.

And the Marjaxon has still found ways to win football games. Through a lot of frustration, through a lot of Ravens fans tagging him on Twitter and saying he shouldn't be paid anymore. Like there's a lot of that going on in Baltimore. And the Ravens are still seven and four primed with a Cupcake schedule the rest of the way to win the AFC norm. And there's still frustration around there. I think Ben Solek tweeted out the stat. ESPN's win probability model has had them with a seven. 75% chance are better to win in the fourth quarter in all four games they've played this season.

Or full games have lost this season. That I think speaks to what Lamar Jackson is on and specifically what he's done to elevate what is objectively a bad supporting cast. Now, what I will say is this and why maybe I feel like I'm too high on them is that being in this many one score games and letting the ball bounce the opposite way this many times. Yes, is unlucky. Yes, is volatile. But the reason they're in these games is still that the supporting cast isn't getting better overnight. Great Roman is not getting better overnight. Lamar Jackson is good as he's been. There are times where Steve Ruiz, who does the quarterback rankings for the ringer, has said, this is the best version of Lamar Jackson we've ever seen.

Solac has said that, too. This is the best version of Lamar Jackson we've ever seen. And they're still losing this game. And they're going, in a league or in a sport where it's a hyper-volatile sport. They don't play series in the NFL. It's not seven-game series. It's one game in the playoffs. One game when you're out.

And this ball's where even team is prime for one of those games, right? Where they're going against a team that they should be. Maybe they're even favored. And they lose because too often. the supporting cast around Lamar Jackson is failing them. And that I think is going to lead to a team that does not have a first round by. I don't think they have a shot in the first round by in the AFC. Having to win three consecutive games against good football teams, I don't see it.

I don't see it, right? I don't see the Baltimore Ravens as a legitimate, legitimate Super Bowl contender, as good as they've been. And is that many games that they've played well? I don't know. I think at nine, maybe I'm too high. Yeah, I felt it too. Well, I would say nine feels okay to me. I think you've had them too high earlier, that it's taken, you know, I think as they've lost some of those close games,

You've been like, it's a close game. Lamar is playing great, reluctant to kind of start dropping them. And now they've dropped a little bit. One of the things that's concerning to me about the way that they've lost these games is the things that we should trust about the Ravens. Like the things that we should say, this is why they should be winning the close games, coaching, the way that Harbaugh typically has such a good pulse on that team, his decision making, just the experience, the steadiness, all that stuff that Harbaugh brings

that a lot of these other teams around the league tend to lack. Special teams, you know, you just know. that like, we were all stunned that Justin Tucker missed that kick the other day. It was a 67-yard kick, and it was like just short. Like, it just says a lot about that when Justin Tucker went out there, we all thought he was going to make that, right? We all thought, like, sure, of course this guy's going to make 67-yarder. So those are some of the reasons why, like, and then Lamar being able to do the one-of-one things that he's able to do. So the fact that they have those three things, you have the best kicker of all time, you have one of the NFL's best head coaches, and you've got a

quarterback who can do stuff that nobody else on the planet can do. And they are still losing some of these close games. It gives me a little bit of a little bit of pause and how much I'm going to believe in them to win close games down the stretch. I worry. I worry because Lamar Jackson is his talent is being wasted. I don't know. As good as he's been this year, it still feels that, you know, I think I've said meat on

the bone maybe too many times on this podcast, but there's a lot of meat on the bone with I think you're just still in Thanksgiving, though. That's all. It might be. I might be. I might be. All right, real quickly, and then we'll bring in Steam Rui's. What is your game of the week this year?

There are so many good games. I think this might be the best week of games this year. I'm going to go off a little bit here. Bills at Patriots. Patriots are four and a half point dog at home. That's a Thursday night game. Usually the stinker of the week got bills at Patriots, Belichick versus Josh Allen.

Belichick versus Josh Allen, that hasn't been as accurate on the underneath stuff up late. Hasn't had the same success that he had early parts of the season. I'm excited for that. Jets at Vikings. Jets are a new look Jets team. Mike White going on the road against the Vikings who are only three-point favorites at home against the Jets, Titans Eagles.

Eagles, five and a half point favorite. but Titans, man, physical every single week. Commanders at Giants, that is a game where commanders are in control of their playoff odds if they beat the Giants over the next three weeks. The commanders have the Giants this week in New York, then they take the buy, and then they host the Giants in Washington. You beat the Giants over the next three weeks, have the buy. I think the commanders are a playoff team.

Dolman is at Niners. Mike McDaniels, Kyle Shanahan, going to be an absolute treat. Niners are three and a half point favorites at home. Chargers at Raiders, it's a playoff game. Chargers are already out, but who knows, one and a half point dogs at home on the Raiders. Chiefs at Bengals, probably the game of the week, probably what you're going to choose, but still, bangles are two and a half point home dogs. Doubting the Bengals again.

Maybe Jamar Chase comes back. And then we close it out. Saints at Bucks. It's going to be a big game. We just talked about it. Saints of Bucks are three and a half point favorites at home. A lot of tight spreads, a lot of big games, a lot of impact on the playoffs on the playoff probabilities.

Where is your game of the week this week? Yeah, I mean, this is one of those interesting weeks where, like, I think there's compelling matchups in the early slate. You know, you ran through some of them. The late afternoon slate is as good as it gets. There are some weeks of the year where you get, you know, it's two games. It's three games and some of them really, really suck. That afternoon slight, the 4 o'clock Eastern, 2 o'clock Mountain Slate is excellent.

And part of that is that we don't have to watch the Broncos in that 2 o'clock late afternoon slate because they were playing at the Ravens earlier in the day. But the fact that we have, it's actually not fair that the Dolphins Niners game and the Chief Spangles game are going to be at the same time. I'm going to be given my Sunday ticket a run for its money. I'll probably have one game on the main TV and one game on my laptop screen so I can watch both at the same time. So it's a good week if you don't have to get yourself to a sports bar or something. So you can actually watch both of those because I think Red Zone Channel is not going to do those two matchups justice.

So I'm not going to pick between those two games because they are both awesome in different ways. Although maybe actually I'll take that back. It's Chief Spengals. That's the game I'm most looking forward to. I circled that one on my calendar back in May, I think when the schedule came. out. I didn't circle Dolphins Niners in May. It is very interesting now. And I think that the matchup stuff is going to be very, very fun to watch and the coaching matchup there. But Chiefs, Chieftles is, is it for me. I am excited for Chief Spangles. I think that all of this praise

that we poured on the Bengals, all of this praise we poured on Big Lou and Zach Taylor making adjustments and Joe Burwin improving and reporters asking what he learned about himself without Jamar Chase, all that stuff dies if they not necessarily lose this game, but if they fall flat. and defense gets exposed. Offensively, Sage Jemar Chase does come back and it's not the juggernaut it needs to be to beat up on a Chief's team

or a Bills team in the playoffs. We could quickly see or quickly drop how good we feel left the Bengals and Super Bowl contenders depending on just how dominant the Chiefs are on this one. Because if you had to tell me,

okay, pick one team of these two, it's a tight spread, but if you had to pick one team that could be dominant, it's a Chiefs. Yeah, the ceiling is probably hired there. But I, you know, I think that this, this could be like,

maybe similar to the way that Bill's Chiefs game was earlier this year where like we want to talk ourselves into like, oh, this is going to be like 38, 35 kind of shootout. It could end up being 24-21 type of game where we're going to get some really like awesome offensive plays, but we're going to have, you know, a couple big defensive moments. Some of the, you know, the quarterbacks might underperform in some moments, but, you know, some weird turnovers, those sorts of things. But I think it'll be a close game. I love to see. a quarterback like Joe Burrow who is just like not scared to go toe to toe

with Patrick Holmes, which there are a lot of quarterbacks in the league who I think Turtle in that situation and Joe Burrow does the opposite. What's the opposite of turtling? Peacocking, I guess. I don't know. Yeah, peacocking is a good one. It does that opposite. So yeah, I'm pumped for that game.

I'm interested how the total moves. I think it's a game where you get two good quarterbacks, two high-powered offense in Cincinnati. Could there be weather? You don't live there anymore. You don't live there anymore. I don't live there anymore. Thank God. Your weather up.

You don't even have to see it. I don't want to even look at the weather in Cincinnati, but I wouldn't be surprised if that total maybe comes down a little bit with how much Louona-Ruma has played well and not knowing if Jamar Chase comes back. I don't know. I could see under having some value. All right, Lindsay, this has been fantastic,

but I think it's going to even better when we bring in Steve Ruiz to talk some quarterbacks. Stephen, welcome to the show. It's the first time I think us three have podcasted together now. No Jason Goff, but it is Lindsay and myself. Ready to talk Mike White, who I think you said you're elevating to number one on your quarterback rankings because Jets fans have you have knife at your back? Where are you at a Mike White, man?

Because I think a lot, the hype is ridiculous. The stats are ridiculous. I said this, when I was talking to Lindsay earlier, but like every single person finding like the next best stab, like this is the best performance by a quarterback, not named Zach Wilson because Zach Wilson's a piece of shit. Every, every, every stat is like so backhanded towards Zach Wilson just being a complete turd.

How high are you, Mike White? What's the right reaction to what, three touchdowns, a hundred yard game from that? I'd say number one is a little, little hot. for my taste. Just a little high. No, I think like, he's not Zach Wilson. It's the nicest thing I could say about him.

My comparison would be, you know how that Kurt Warner movie came out? And like Zach. Yes, Zach Levy played him. One of the worst movies of all time. Yeah, it's like they hired someone to play Joe Flacco in his own biopic. But he's a little bit smaller than Flacco. He doesn't quite have the arm. His hair's not as good.

Yeah, because he's an actor. But like, he gets the mannerism. down and you kind of can like do he can cosplay as joe flacco and that's what he is i don't mean like joe flacco i mean like prime joe flacco which makes it up a little yeah it makes it a little better not much better but a little better that's mike i'm so glad you brought him american underdog if you haven't seen that movie it might be one of the worst movies made of all time um and it it feels like a sports movie that was made obviously you know what 2021 or whatever it was but felt like it was made in like 1940 because the it was just like one of the lowest production films i've ever seen

it's a it's a tough one to watch the scripting's bad the acting's terrible it is uh horrendous but not as horrendous i guess is what zach wilson has been now i want to ask you this before we move on from mike white because i think mike white elevates the offense i think i think i said that if anyone has won benching mike white or are benching zach wilson and having him undressed for the games it is like lefleur like lefleur is like legitimately exhaling like wow okay he did throw it he did throw it like It's a different offense because the ball's being thrown on time. And when he hits his drop and all those things, and that elevates an Elijah Moore, that elevates to Garrett Wilson.

People play better when the ball comes out on time and it's accurate and all those things. Is this the best quarterback since who for the Jets? Is it Mark Sanchez? Is it Gino Smith in 2016? Is it Michael Vick in 2014? Fonzie, 2015. Mike White's the best quarterback since two in the Jets in a Jets uniform. I agree with Lindsay.

I think it's Fitts in 2015. Although I, even back then, I was saying Gino should play. So I still think it's Gino. Gino was on the roster, but he didn't play. So I think it's fits. I'm trying to think of who else it could be like Sam Darnold. Here's the answer. He's the best quarterback since Mike White against the Bengals last year.

That's it. That's what it is. That's what it is. No, but he's, like, he's my thing when I was watching him, and I agree with everything you're saying, like, just having an adult behind center allows this offense to look like, what we've seen it be before for quarterbacks. It elevates quarterbacks that are lacking certain talents.

And being able to run the offense is such a big deal. And I don't think like the talent level between Mike White and Zach Wilson is, it's definitely not in Mike White's favor. I was going to say it's not that large, but Zach Wilson has more talent. It's just that he doesn't run the offense like this. And like being able to run quick game whenever you want instead of having to call an RPO because you don't trust Zach Wilson to go from one to two to three is a big.

deal. Like, there was a play on the first drive where they have, like, a vertical route to the right call. Mike White looks at that first, quickly comes off it because it's covered. There's a safety dropping over the top. Comes back to the other side, realize that concept's not there, and hits the checkdown on time and gets a first down. And like, when I watched it, I was like, if Zach Wilson made that play, that very simple play, it would be like the best play of his career so far. And he just, that's just not the type of quarterback he is. And going from him to Mike White has made that very clear. It's not unlike the difference that we're seeing in Seattle, them going from Russell Wilson

to Gino Smith. Russell's a better quarterback, like a more talented quarterback. Zach Wilson's a more talented quarterback. But being able to run the offense as it's designed to run makes such a big difference. It makes up for that talent gap. The quick game is a great call out because there are time. He wasn't pressured a lot in this game. They did get the ball out quickly.

And his time to throw was, I think, 2.6 seconds, which is, which is fast compared to what Zach Wilson was doing. for the amount of times where you see Quick Game called, maybe they dial up a blitz or a sim pressure, and it's not necessarily pressure with the pockets kind of collapsing and just gets the ball out. Like that matters, man. And I don't think you want,

I haven't watched any other offenses this year where you're screaming, holy shit at Quick Game, or you're screaming, oh man, like this is how it should be. And I think that just goes to show, just like how much Zach Wilson just wasn't doing that for the Jets and why, after two really ugly games, you know, against New England Patriots, he was ultimately bench.

In addition to the comment, I think the comment meant a lot to Robert, solid, it meant a lot to that locker room. And I think that was what ultimately was the straw that broke the camel's back. But still, seeing him run the offense, I think has been a massive improvement. Other quarterback who wanted to bring up, Justin Humberg, or Herbert, depends on how you call him. He, in my opinion, continues to show that I think the social media quarterback tipped at the cap to the best social media team in the NFL. It's the charters.

It's not close. I don't think a lot of people, not a lot of fans pay attention to of the 32 social media teams, who is the best. The charters are the best by a country freaking mile. they've handled the Acho comment about the social media quarterback and what they've done there and what they did about announcing the schedule. All that stuff is fantastic. Go look at some digital content from the charter social media team. But still, what Herbert has done in this game specifically to come back and the throws that

he's making continues to show that he's one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL. I know you've had him as high as number two in your quarterback rankings. The goalposts, however, continue to move for Herbert. And they should have been, they should have dominated against a bad cardinal's team or they should be better. And he needs Mike Williams and Keenan Allen to play well. I don't know, man. I think Herbert, every single week, I find myself more and more confident that if he's not in that tier with Allen and Mahomes as a pure elevator, he is in that tier right behind them as a number three quarterback in this league.

Yeah, I think the problem is he just makes it, he does it in ways that aren't obvious. Like when Mahomes or Allen makes a play outside of structure, like elevates their team, like you're saying, it looks cool as shit. Like it makes a highlight real. Like those are the social media quarterbacks. I would argue that Justin Herbert is the opposite of that. Like in order to really appreciate his game beyond the caricature of him that has been painted, like him being the big armed prototype athlete. That's not what he's, that's not why he's good.

He's good because he does like the nerdy quarterback stuff so well that it just makes this offense viable. That wouldn't be viable with any other quarterback. Like I'm not saying he's better than like Patrick Mahomes or Josh Allen. but you put those two in this offense, I think it looks like last year with those two when they were struggling during the middle of the year. Herbert, like,

every play looks like the hardest play ever that a quarterback has ever made whenever he gets a completion. That's the only way I could put it. He's getting the most out of that team. I don't care what the numbers say. Like, I know he had good numbers against Cardinals. He hasn't had great numbers the weeks before that,

but the last month has, you can't ask more of him. He's doing everything he possibly, can to keep that team afloat and it's just all him at this point. It sounds like I'm like hyping him up, but I swear it turned on the tape every play. It's him just doing the most. It's legitimately Lamar Jackson levels of, I mean, I think elevating your supporting cast is like not necessarily a cliche, but a common phrase in discussing the NFL quarterbacks, but it's surviving the play calling.

Like him surviving the play calling of Joe Lombardi is incredible. I loved, by the way, talk about Charter's Social Media team. It was incredible that they practiced that. two-point conversion play where Gerald Everett kind of like, you know, fake the stick route and got open on the two yards. It's funny, I think you brought this up on the Monday recap show that if you need two yards, Lombardi's got your back.

Also, if you need a play off of stick, Lombardi's got your back. He's like, oh, yeah, it's kind of a stick concept. Everett runs a different round and he's going to get open. Like, dude, if there's any defense, you know, they're singing lullabies with the stick route for the charges and opposing defenses are sitting on all a single day. I think it was funny to see, you know, that have success in that two-yard play.

I think you should be going for it on every two-point conversion. A couple more quarterbacks I want to bring up. I know Lindsay wants to talk Russ. But before we talk Ross, Kyler Murray. Kyle Murray, I think his comment, the quote, has gone nearly viral about him saying schematically fuck.

Ben Solac on Twitter, you know, kind of outlined how they had the RPO called. Alohi Gilman, the safety came up late pre-snap, took out the flat, forced him to make a kind of 50-50 ball to Dieder Hopkins against it gets intercepted.

In my opinion, RPO concept on fourth and one that the opposing team knows. Yeah, and that play, and what Kyla Murray meant was on that play, they were schematically fucked. But holy shit, is that not a, just a microcosm what the Arizona Cardinals have been for four years? Where, like, feels predictable, college concept.

They try and execute it. Kyle Murray tries to make a play and it just doesn't work. That's what the Arizona Cardinals have been. And so much that, not that dissimilar, and we're going to bring up Russell Wilson. Not that dissimilar to the Russell Wilson situation. The Cardinals are hamstrung to a quarterback that, yes, has talent, but they still need to see more from him.

Russell Wilson is maybe a worse degree of them. but they know he has talent, it's time to sever ties with the coaching staff here. Obviously, in the handle hackett would be a one and done with Kime and Kingsbury. They've been there forever. I don't know what to do here, but it feels like the straw, or you talk about the camel's backbreaking, it feels like this game and the Arizona Cardinals likely missing the playoffs. Again, no playoff wins for four straight years. This is it for Cliff Kingsbury and potentially Steve Kime in Arizona so much that Kiley's going

to have a new offense. My question is, what does this offense look like that best positions Kailer Marie to win football games. Best positions him to to legitimately be the caliber of quarterback that I think a lot of people think he's capable of. I mean, it's the easy answer that you could use for any quarterback, but like a Shanahan offense. I, like, every time I watch Kyler,

I expect, on film, I mean, I expect it to look worse than it ends up looking. Because like, when you watch him on broadcast, you see him running around and you're like, that's not like how a quarterback's supposed to play, but then you watch him and he's like, he misses route, sure, he misses open receivers over the middle. You could tell that his height bothers him. But I think,

he's a very talented quarterback, and I think he's a top 10 quarterback in terms of talent. The scheme is not doing him any favors in terms of giving him an open pocket or giving him throwing windows to hit those passes over the middle, which I think is one of the best things Mike McDaniel has done for Tua. Bringing a coach like that, that understands his limitations and can coach around them and hide them and then highlight his strengths. I don't think you're getting that with Cliff. I think with Cliff, you're getting the air rate offense.

You're getting a run game that does utilize Kyler Murray, but I think any coach would know to utilize him in the run game because he is very fast. I don't think there's, when I watch, I don't see anything that is jerry-rigged for Kyler Murray specifically and makes his job easier. And I think of Kyle Shanahan offense, at least the one we've seen from Josh McDaniels, or Josh, not Josh McDaniel, I'm sorry, Mike McDaniel. And the offense we've seen in San Francisco with Kyle Shannon and Jimmy Garoppel, I think those are two coaches that have shown that they can still keep the philosophy of their

offense intact while changing things around the formations and the presentation and stuff like that to fit their quarterback. That's the type of coach he needs because you can run a regular offense with Kyler Murray. It's the little things you do around it, the presentation stuff to help them out that I think matters. And I think that's where you're missing NFL experiences, experience. That's the benefit you get from like an NFL. NFL lifer, because that's what they do.

Whereas college coaches is just like, we have the scheme, we're going to call our plays every week. If we have the better players, it's going to work. That's not the game in the NFL. And that's where I think Cliff falls short, especially for Kyler. It's the game that Cliff's been playing, right? You mentioned, I don't think any of this offense is Jerry Rig to Kyler. This offense is Jerry Rigged to Cliff.

You know what I mean? Like, this is a Cliff offense. It's Cliff every single year. And regardless of the personnel, regardless of who they add, and they failed adding personnel. Time has failed building offensive and defensive roster that's capable of being the quote unquote better talent in this scheme. Like, it's not there, right? I think Kime is as much at fault as Kingsbury is. And whoever's had, you know, the say in some of these positioning, I think, or some of the pickups specifically offensively, I think is at fault.

You know, and I worry that because of the seven-year extension, because Steve Kime has literally been there since 1994 and has never been in the front office of any other team in the NFL, I worry that they could run it back again. I worry that they could run it back again, and that's ultimately going to hinder what Murray's capable of and all that stuff. Lindsay, close us out. Russ. What are your thoughts? Yeah. I mean, I know. Stephen, I think we may have to, we'll work this out with HR, give you hazard pay this week, some sort of bonus, because, spoiler alert, you're diving deep on the Broncos offense and how they can possibly salvage this with Russ. So I know it's been a painful endeavor as you've been starting to go back into that tape. But this is a guy who's fallen probably precipitously through your ranking. rankings throughout the season. It felt I was getting text on Sunday from family and friends here in Denver saying, is this rock bottom now for the Broncos?

I think it could still get worse. They have two games against the Chiefs. But when you're looking back now, what is the biggest problem with the offense and then with Russell Wilson specifically that has made this so difficult for them to do anything? Like, I honestly don't think the offense, the design is all that bad. I just think it's the worst type of offense you could run for Russell Wilson at this point in his career.

I don't think there was like an ideal offense for him during his prime, but he was so good, it almost didn't matter. Like the Seahawks inevitably ended up like falling back into the same style of offense. But I don't think like the scheme necessarily matters. Like Schadenheimer got the most out of him, I think. But it didn't really look any different

from when Beville was there, from when Walden was there last year in Seattle I'm talking about. So I don't think like Hackett, replacing Hackett with a more competent West Coast coach is going to make much of a difference. I think you really need a coach who understands Russell Wilson and looks at the quarterback position from the point of view of a defensive coordinator. Because I think those are the types of coaches that are going to get the most out of a volatile quarterback because those are the coaches that understand his strengths more. Like whenever you heard like traditional coaches kind of talk about Russell Wilson through like various mediums like sometimes it would be anonymous. There would be questions about his ability to like operate a drop back passing game because he was so chaotic. He didn't really follow the script much. And I think an offensive minded coach will look at that and be like, that's hard to build an offense around.

I don't necessarily want to work with the quarterback like that. Whereas I think if you ask a defensive coordinator about Russell Wilson, they don't worry about that stuff. They don't worry that he wasn't going one to two to three in the progression. They don't worry that he wasn't hanging in the pocket. They're like, this guy makes it really freaking hard to defend him in call plays. And I think that's what Pete Carroll was so good at. He understood the pressure that Russell Wilson put on a defense. And he built, I don't think he didn't build the offense, but he kind of influenced how the offense would be built around those particular things.

Like the scrambles, the deep throws, the vertical shots, the moon balls, the plays against pressure, all that stuff. I think you need an offense or you need an offensive coordinator. coordinator that's willing to change his scheme, pare down his scheme in order to do that. And I don't think like an offensive minded head coach is going to be willing to do that because they think that they got this job because of their precious scheme. So for me, it's like finding the right coach. And my worry is that one, I don't know if like ownership, and I'm not saying this specific Denver ownership is capable of like working out the right coach to hire for this specific

quarterback. I don't think any, like, owner who isn't well-versed in Russell Wilson in his career and has been grinding the tape for 10 years would be able to find that guy. And then the other thing is, I don't think Russell Wilson knows who he is as a quarterback. And that's the biggest thing. Like, when you've heard him talk, he's talked about, oh, yeah, I bought on my game after Jew Breeze. In what world are you, Drew Breeze? You are not Jew Breeze. You guys are both short, but that's where they wear the same size pants. That's where the comparison ends. You cannot run the same offense for Jee's that you run for Russell Wilson, but I think Russell Wilson, such a big thing with him over the last couple of years is I want my offense. I want ownership of the offense.

This is the type of quarterback I want to be. I want to win this way. So my legacy is this. And I just, I don't know how you're going to be able to work with him to find a coach that gets that out of him because it's, for me, it's delusion on what made him so successful. I can't wait to read your piece on the ringer.com later this week. So this was just a little preview for what's to come there. It's hard to think of a more disappointing team than the Denver Broncos this season. I mean, there's a good chance that they finish behind the Las Vegas Raiders and go forth. Oh, I mean, they've already been slept to other Raiders.

Yeah. It's, it's, man, I can't believe how far they've fallen. I think there were minus 140 to make the playoffs preseason. A lot of high expectations around Hackett, a lot of high expectations around them signing, all this stuff. Russell Wilson, obviously, the big trade. And now it's just like complete pit of. misery and ownership might not know who to hire. Russell Wilson doesn't know who to hire.

The cornyness is reaching levels that we never saw in Seattle. Maybe that's stupid to bring up. Maybe that's media fodder. Maybe that's social media analyst, not the actual analyst. But like, the cornyness and Mike Purcell yelling at him in his face and I can't get over that TikTok where you saw him having his teammates call out run past on the side. Like there's some of the stuff that I don't know, man. Like psychologically, I don't know how different leadership comes in and writes the ship for Denver. So some worries there for sure. Fantastic stuff as always, Stephen. Appreciate you. Lindsay stepping in for Jason Gough. Make sure you tune into the rest of the feed. On Wednesdays, Norprinciotti is joined by a guest for the island. Shield Capadilla on

on Thursdays for the Scramble. And then the preview show, Danny High Fitz, Ben Solac and Steve Ruiz. Big shout out to our producers. Connor and Evans, our Juno Ram, Kippal, and Carlos Churiboga. Another shout out to Lindsay. Lindsay coming on and editing my piece every single week in addition to now podcasting me with me this week. Until next time, Lindsay, Stephen, Asigale, the Power Rankings Show. You know,