The Ringer NFL Show - Week 13 Recap: Baker Has a Big Day, Saints and Chiefs Clinch Playoff Spots, and Winners and Losers | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: December 7, 2020

Kevin and Nora start by discussing Baker Mayfield and the Cleveland Browns' impressive win over the Tennessee Titans (5:47). Then they pick their Week 13 winners and losers, including the New York Giants' upset over the Seattle Seahawks and the New York Jets' epic collapse against the Las Vegas Raiders (22:45). Lastly they answer listener questions (1:09:53) and pick their clickbait headline of the week (1:15:44). Hosts: Kevin Clark and Nora Princiotti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It is the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Kevin Clark, joined today by Nora Pryanti. Great show, the surging Browns, the shocking giants, and whatever Carson Wentz is. Today's episode of the Ringer NFL show and the Ringer Podcast Network is brought to you by State Farm. Getting great car and home insurance from State Farm at a surprisingly great rate. That's like drafting a player that becomes an all pro, the real deal. State Farm agents provide personalized service so you can customize your insurance to fit your needs, like a GM putting together their very own roster.

You need a team that supports you, and State Farm's got a great one. In addition to agents, the award-winning mobile app helps manage coverage, pay bills, file claims, and more. With a great price and even greater service, State Farm goes from strength to strength. Choose insurance it always brings its A-game.

When you want the real deal, like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. North Franti. Kevin Clark, did you watch Cornacki? I did watch Cornacki. That's a big moment for you as a Kornacki head. I am a Kornacki head. I'm also a John King head. I just love, I love the math politicians. I love the pointing at the big board. I love the breakdowns. I love the counties. Just really took me back to election season and I can't believe I mean that in a positive way,

but I really loved having Steve Kornacki on the Football Night in America pregame show. I was on Kornacki show a couple years ago and it has become a pivotal moment of my life. It wasn't back then because he wasn't like a cult hero back then. Now he is. Now I'm like, oh, this is great. International sex symbol? Yeah. No, I had, back then it was just, he had, I think, a Saturday morning show and I had to go and talk about the NFL

was at the Wall Street Journal back then. And it was great. He was awesome. He was rolling up his sleeves in a way. I don't think many people can pull off the sleeves rolled up look. I think that they look a little bit sloppy typically. He pulls it off very well. And I think that is an accomplishment,

along with his other, his other obviously career accomplishments. Huge football fan, huge Patriots fan. Yeah. from Groton, Massachusetts, Steve Kornacki. Yeah. So there we go. I'm going to do a full Kornacki pod. Do you think that Trevor Lawrence watches like an NFL Sunday and just lives and dies with where he's going next year?

I think that he doesn't. He tries not to. But I imagine that let's call it, I don't know, 2.30, 3 p.m. Eastern time today. He had to be like, okay, I got to see this for myself. Like my future is really hanging in the balance right now. it's kind of weird. It must be kind of weird for him. I also think it's kind of weird that we ascribe,

we're all like, oh, he would really, he doesn't want to play for the Jets. I understand the Jets are a bad situation, but it is, you know, it is New York City for like a 23-year-old.

It's a little different. I mean, like Jacksonville's a different deal. By the way, by the way, it is important. That punt to tie between the Bengals and the Eagles

kept us from having no scenario in which he ends up with Joe Burrow. That could have happened. There could have just been like an energy suck in Cincinnati, where both, because they have two wins. And I was thinking today about how they'd be in the hunt. Luckily, the Jets remained winless.

Anyway. Could Joe Burrough and Josh Rosen? I don't think so. Yeah, that was my thought. I was just like, what happens then? Do they start in my show? Don't, we don't have to worry about it. Both the Jaguars and the Jets remained incompetent.

We'll go from there. I do think, wait, hold on. And I promise I'm not going to, I promise I'm not going to make this an entire podcast about Steve Kornacki. But I do think that the. of the people who guide us through uncertainty in an election or other pivotal event through data and map analysis and naming all the counties. The reason we love them is because they kind of just tell us what's going on and calm

us down. And I think it would be great for Trevor Lawrence to have his own personal Steve Kornacki figure to be like, look, you've got a 66% chance of the Jets making it happen. and, you know, it's 30 Jaguars, like 2% over here or whatever. And just let him really sink into the numbers and have sort of like a rational expectation so that he doesn't get into the brain spiral mode of wondering what's going to happen in his life. You threw out to calm them down. But if someone kept telling you we were going to go play for the Jets, would that calm you down?

I just think hard data is a really peaceful thing to rely on. Certain types of hard data. Yeah, but even if it's, you know what, it's like sometimes we're not going to talk about the Patriots, but I was thinking to myself watching the Patriots be the Chargers today. And I was like, this is a metaphor for 2020, because as established, I do not think that the Patriots are good. However, it's 2020. And I think one thing we've realized about this year is that once you acknowledge that things are mostly bad, then is the moment when you can start to chart a path forward. And I think that is where the Patriots are, They're like, yeah, 200 passing yards, that's probably not going to happen for us.

But we will find another way if it exists. And I think that that's a really, that's a nice place to be relative to some alternatives. So I will say we are doing a bad job not making this a Kornacki pod or a Patriots pod. I just saw a headline Anthony Lynn, colon, I expect to be coach of the Chargers tomorrow, which is very when everything is normal. All right. Let's get to the headlines because there was a lot to unpack. today a lot. And we actually went back and forth in what the headline was. And for us,

and there's a lot to get to, obviously, but for us, it's Browns 41 Titans 35. Baker Mayfield has the best half in Brown's history since Autogram. Although I remember a couple of years ago, he was in, he was breaking some Autogram's passing records as far as Brown's Debut Towns like a railroad magnet. He does. He also sounds like a, just a badass quarterback who, I feel like Autogram rewrote record books. He was like the Patrick Mahomes of his era. Like every record book is just owned by him until it was broken. So if you're talking about Baker Mayfield breaking his record or matching his record for first half success, that's very good.

Okay. So wow. This was supposed to be two AFC wildcard teams or division winner in the Titans case, proving where they're going to be. These two teams will meet again in January if the season next. ended today. That's how the AFC seating works right now. And we saw the best of the Browns, not the best of the Titans.

Listen, we know who Baker Mayfield is. We know what you need to do with him. You need to keep him upright. His passer rating against pressure this year has been 33. That's really bad. That was the case last year, too. And we know you need to keep him upright. We know you need to have a certain type of creativity with him.

You know that you need to have, I mean, listen, all of a sudden, you got Jarvis Landrie thrown to him on toe touch passes. And Dreves'Ling is drawing a roughing the passer penalty, throws a touchdown pass to Kendall Lamb. Like Kevin Stefansky is as important as the offensive line here, is as important as the quarterback. I mean, all of this is so important. Andrew Barry for building this offense around him,

the offensive line who had coming into this game, had the best passing grade and running grade in football for blocking. Like these guys, this is what they do. And when they do it well, they have days like Sunday. What did you learn? We'll get to the Titans. second. What did you learn about the Browns? Well, I think it's time to acknowledge the Browns as a team that could win a couple playoff games and that has as much to do is where they are as a team as

who they're probably going to face. I think right now, if the playoffs started tomorrow when Anthony Lynn will still be coached the Chargers, uh, they would face the Titans who obviously we know that they can beat. So the Browns, you can kind of consider them in two contexts, right? You consider, consider them in the 2020 context when I think we discount them one, because of the strength of schedule they've faced not being very good. They don't have a good point differential. They also win in kind of unsexy ways that don't get as much hype as high-flying offenses do. Yeah.

But we got to remember that there are some other kind of iffy teams that they're probably going to run up against in January, too. The other thing that I think is important to consider is just the greater Browns context of this. like this is a team that once accidentally projected pornography onto a wall in its facility because they were trying to display a social media campaign. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, you can read Seth Wickersham's fabulous ESPN story. But like, this is really, really, really good considering where they're coming from. Not a decorated history.

Well. As a franchise. Yes. A decorated wall, I suppose. In that one instance. Yeah, a decorated wall. A decorated wall. Not a decorated history.

they've been the worst franchise in football and probably sports. And so for them to, I think that there's a greater, you know, we were talking about this earlier, there's a greater curve here where Brown's fans should be as excited as hell. And are there caveats? Sure. Are they on the top tier of the AFC? No, but they don't have to be.

And this is coming from where they were last year where they were super overhyped, coming from where they were just a few years ago when they were 0 and 16, I mean, this is an amazing step for them to be this competitive, this good against a good Titans team that does not play, does not play to the Browns weakness is whatever you want to call it because they don't have a good pass rush. The dominant offensive line with Cleveland can bully them, but the Browns did what they needed to do. And that's why, you know, Baker on in the first half, Mina Kam said this via ESPN stats and info, Baker was pressured on just two of 26 dropbacks. And there's a reason he had a historically good first half. But on the other hand, next-gen stats tracks this. And they said that since they've been tracking this,

that was the best first half that anybody's had when not under pressure since they started tracking. Okay. So it wasn't just that he was in a clean pocket. It was that he was taking advantage of it. Lots of people were in clean pockets. But Baker Mayfield took advantage of it. So it was both of these things. I'm hugely impressed.

And I think the thing that we have to acknowledge is that some of these things, like the Titans don't have a good pass. rush. By the way, we should we should say that they'd put Chedevian Clowny on IR three weeks ago with the hope that he would come back. But according to Ann Rapoport, he had surgery and he's not going to come back this year. So that situation for the Titans is not going to get better. But it's not just that the Titans don't have a good pass rush and can't pressure quarterbacks. The Brown's offensive line is the identity of their team. They can protect the quarterback. They can keep him clean. They can give him opportunities where his accuracy can be an advantage for them. They can run

the ball and they know all of that. They have an opportunistic defense that's not that great, but can force turnovers. They will be getting Denzel Ward back. They got Miles Garrett off the COVID list. And they have a good coach who's fairly aggressive on fourth downs who, whether this is Savansky or where Baker is or just the general makeup of the roster, they have no big drama this year. It doesn't seem like.

It does seem like I don't like the Odell Beckham Ewing theory thing because he's a talented player, but it does seem like Baker is maybe relaxed a little bit by the idea that he doesn't have to force the ball to a specific target. And I think what is the most important part of that is they seem to understand all of that, right? They play to their strengths. They try to win the way that they're best suited to win. And if you make the list of teams that I do not think they ever have a chance of beating, like, yeah, no, I'm not picking them against the chiefs. but would it shock me if they beat, say, the Steelers in a game? No, because I just don't think that they're like screw up prone in the way that they have been.

And that right now is enough. And the stuff with Baker is more long term, right? Like this off season, they're going to have to decide if they want to extend him. Do they want to pick up his fifth year option? Like, do something else, whatever. All of that can wait. But that's where I think the tricky uncertainty comes. This year, they are a good team that doesn't beat themselves.

And if they lose, it's going to be because they lost to a good team, which if you consider the context of their own franchise history, should make everybody really happy. Totally agree. And they play the Ravens on Monday night next week. And I, we might, depending on how the Ravens play this week and what their situation is, I don't know how much we'll learn about this team there. But it's intriguing to see them go up against.

really good teams right now. Baker Mayfield after the game was asked about his growth and he quoted Dwight Shrewd. And he said, whenever I'm about to do something, I think to myself, would an idiot do that. And if they would, then I don't do that. Baker Mayfield has been quoting a lot of

2010 era NBC shows lately. He had the Parks and Rec thing last week. And I'm just, I'm sensing maybe some binge watching going on in Baker Mayfield. Okay, but that quote is literally the history of the Cleveland Browns. Like, wouldn't idiot do that thing?

Would the Cleveland Browns do that thing? That was where we lived for a really long time. And I'm not, I think this team could win a playoff game. Maybe they could win too. And that's the exciting part. That Cleveland can go wild. But I just think that they should appreciate this in this moment. Like there is something so wonderful about confidence.

And regardless of what happens for the next month plus, like, this is an accomplishment. I saw a thing today. It was kind of a straw manning. It was like, if you still, everyone's saying the Browns are frauds. I'm thinking, man, it's 2020. Like, I don't even know what a fraud means this year. Okay, we had an Alfred Morris touchdown today.

It's 2020 in a giant Seahawks game. Like, this is the weirdest year of all time. And if you can show competence, I'm ready to believe you. Okay, I'm the Ghostbusters here. I'm ready to believe you. And so with the Browns, I just look at this team and I see what they do well. And I say, okay, yeah, this team, I know they can win a playoff game because if the playoffs started today,

they'd play this team again, and they'd beat him again, because the Titans would still make the same mistakes. Now, is anything else in the Browns? I mean, I think this is, again, a victory at every level, whether that's the GM level, the GM level, the coach level,

the offensive level, Miles Garrett gets a sack when he comes back. Jeddrich Willis, the rookie looks really good. Donovan People's Jones took a huge advantage of the busted coverage and scored that touchdown when the Titans were,

as again, it takes, some talent to take it. It takes some talent to let other people make mistakes. That's my general viewpoint on the first half with the Titans there, where they were all over the place. But any other thoughts on the Browns and their beautiful first half? Yeah, just on the Baker point, the future stuff with the contract and an extension and however that goes,

that is a genuinely tangled web. And I would have to think a lot harder and talk to a lot more people to figure out what I think would be a good idea there. But I do think that he is the victim of his own expectations and his own early history in the NFL and a little bit of his own playing into, you know, the general Baker hype machine. Sure. Baker did a GQ profile where he was at a restaurant that had a steak named after him. It is a product of that action that people think about you in a certain way. But like, he doesn't suck.

He's not incompetent. he has the first positive completion percentage over expectation according to next gen stats of any year in his career this year. Part of it is because he's not getting pressured, but he's in a context where he's not going to get pressured that much because of how good their offensive line is. So I just think that we thought so highly of him after his rookie season and what he was able to do, that then it's like if he's not throwing a bagillion touchdowns, it's like he absolutely sucks and he's the worst quarterback in football.

And neither of those things is true. Yeah. He's not what we thought he was going to be three years ago, and that's okay. That's okay. He is where he is. Now, the quarterback stuff, I've talked to Andrew Barry, the gym about this. And as sorry, the contract stuff goes. And he said a couple of things.

Number one, obviously he did not tell me what they were going to do. But we talked a little bit about philosophically about what that looks like if they gave him more money than he makes now. How does that change team building? He pushed back. He literally said, I push back on the theory that you cannot win with an expensive quarterback. And how expensive that looks for Baker Mayfield remains to be seen. But he does not agree with the narrative that once you pay a quarterback, everything has to

change. I think we've seen that, especially maybe with the flat cap next year, there's a little bit of difference there. But Andrew Barry really thinks there's a path forward. If hypothetically, you had a second, a second. contract quarterback. So I think with him at the helm, it's going to be really interesting to see how that is all negotiated. Maybe you do a shorter deal worth a little less money. I don't know. But I don't, one thing, well, the one thing you can't do is make anything declarative and say

he's out the door or we're going to give him the damn Carson Wentz contract. I think you try to find an extremely team friendly happy medium. Right. And if they did extend him, they could do it in a way where the expense is not being born next year under the cap because he's still got ears on his rookie deal. We don't need to get into that all that much right now. Do you want to talk about the Titans a little bit? Because I do think that they, I want to give them some credit for the way that they came back in the second half. I don't so much think of it from a Brown's perspective just because I think sometimes that happens to teams when they get up like that.

It's like you've got all the adrenaline and then it goes away and they still won the game. And I think it's totally legitimate. We shouldn't discount them for what happened in the second half too much. I do think that the Titans, for all their flaws, they're just a tough team. Like, we've seen them come back in a number of games. And I think that's something that should be built into the understanding of kind of who they are. One thing I like about them is that they don't get out of their normal style on offense, where they run a lot and they use play action, even when they're down.

And I think there's a certain solidness in that that serves them well. Great points. I would say that, first of all, the 28 to 3, run, I think should worry us a little bit. Okay. At the end of the second half. That's a lot. I can't be like, oh, I'm completely, I'm completely absolving the Browns from the 28 to three front. I can't do that. There was a level of concern with me. Okay. But, and this is one thing that, that we've talked about before, is coaches like Andy Reid, they prioritize, play

calling in the first half, getting a lead in the first half, and figuring out later. That's, That's, you know, I saw up stat the other day, Sean McBay, 33 and O now when leading it to half. Okay. So a lot of spark coaches. He hates when people mention that. He thinks it's a jinx. Yeah. Well, still still going after Arizona today.

Anyway, so Tennessee has some of the same problem. We saw some of the same problems we've seen all year this year. They gave up the most third down conversions in the league all year. All of a sudden, the Browns convert 10 of 16 today. when Vrabel was asked about this, I was looking at some of the quotes after the game, he basically said, you know, it's very simple.

You have to rush better, you have to cover better. And right now they can't do any of that stuff. So maybe it's simulated pressures, maybe it's changing up the defense, a little bit on third down, but they just don't have any answers for that right now. And so I think that you,

if the Titans formula relies on some superhuman offensive performances, whether that's from the guys who normally break tackles or Ryan Tannihill or whomever, but right now they're just not getting it. And Sunday, they're not getting. We've crowned them last week. I'm not writing off the Titans here. I'm just saying, this is a week-to-week league more than it ever has been, ever in the history

of the sport. This is a week-to-week league because you don't know who's going to play every Sunday. You don't know who's going to practice every week. You don't know who's going to star every week, all this stuff, okay? And so there's a reason that narratives keep reversing themselves one week to the next. And so for me to say anything declarative about the Titans on Sunday is just a little bit of an overreach. But what I will say is that if you would just written what was going to happen out for the Titans today, and he said, this is the score, this is how they failed, I would not have been surprised.

I do think the thing that I like about them is that they can score quickly. Yeah, sometimes it doesn't happen. And then obviously that puts them in a very different situation. But just because of the strength of those playmakers and how much explosive play capability they do have, they can go on a 28 to 3 run like the snappyer fingers. and I think that, I think teams know that when they play them. I think they know that. And it makes them scary in a way that not a lot of teams are. Speaking of it's a week-to-week league, it's our first winner.

It's Giant 17, Seattle Seahawks 12. Wow. Wow. Wayne Galman 135 yards. I have a question. Alfred Morris, yes. Does this, does the tweet apply, of this game?

It does. It does. So I tweeted last year, the Seahawks have literally never played a normal game. And every time, I don't even need to look at a Seahawks score. I just know when I get the notifications in my tabs, that it's starting to be retweeted that things are either,

things are getting weird or they're going south of the Seahawks, whatever it is. And today was one of those days. Yes, the tweet applies. This was the first 5-0-Haplex. Half-time score since 2013 when the Seahawks were also responsible for a 5-0 score at halftime against the 49ers. That was from Elias Sports Bureau. This was...

So the Giants have won four straight for the first time since 2016. And I want to make this a little more about the Giants and the Seahawks, but it's hard not to go 50-50 because this says a lot about both teams. For me, this says a lot about Patrick Graham, the Giants defensive coordinator formerly, Bill Belichick. disciple. I thought that, you know, I was hearing Rodney Harris and say, you know,

Gibral Pepper's is playing, you know, Blake Martinez, all his, but everyone is, by the way, banged up, um,

for a lot of this game. But, this is not, it's not like they've assembled a super team back there. Okay, this is some scheme stuff. This is some toughness stuff. I was really,

really impressed by the fact that they were able to become the first NFCE's team to beat a team over 500. They're just, I know this seems like it's drawing too many conclusions. because they just beat three crappy teams and now pulled off one upset. But I just kind of like this attitude from the Giants right now.

Yeah, it really seems like they have good juice. Colt McCoy started this game in place of Daniel Jones, so it was a hamstring injury. So that's relevant in terms of how they go forward. But a few weeks ago, I think it was when we were doing the pre- Thanksgiving sort of big roundtable pod. I really, I totally chickened out of saying that they could win the division.

and I really wanted to do it, but they had a tough schedule. And it was like, right. But they had a really tough schedule. It was about the non-NFC East teams that they were going to play. And I really wanted to do it. And I'm a coward.

I just, I picked a team that is going to bench their quarterback and pay $70 million of dead money to get him out of town. Here's what I think about, first of all, Colt McCoy. I never gave up on him. Never, ever.

That was a joke. I didn't care. All right. So I think that their ability, I think Joe Judge was, you know, laughed at. I think that was, that was a national narrative. I think that Joe Judge was given, there were a couple things for me with Joe Judge. I think he was starting to go a little bit down the Belichick disciple path where he's trying to be a little too tough, kind of not Patricia thing. But I also think he was a little bit thoughtful.

You know, you heard in July and August the thing about how he was one of the first people to talk about his plan for COVID. and it seemed all very thought out. And it's okay, maybe maybe something here. The more I listened to was close, the more I realized the rah-rah stuff was a little bit separate from his thoughtfulness and his general game plan

for how to build a program here. And so I have not, I did not think that they were going to be anything this year, but the fact that the NFC East is so bad made them, made them a thing. But now you go and you play Seattle like this. I mean, this was for Seattle,

this was supposed to be a stretch of the season where they were going to play such bad teams that we were all going to start saying their defense improved. Right? That was going to be the thing. Their defense wasn't actually going to improve. It was going to be Jamal Adams feasts on a bunch of crappy quarterbacks. Carlos Dunlap gets to the quarterback.

Bobby Wagner plays like a Hall of Fame when we go, oh, here come to Seahawks. We overwrite them. That is exactly how I saw this going. And instead, the Giants have now created a narrative where there's something wrong with the Seahawks offense. Now, that might be the case. That might be the case.

Russell played one of his most uneven games I've ever seen. I saw ESPN called one of the worst losses of the Pete Carroll era. I agree. Because when you're getting into seating and all that stuff,

this is a nightmare to lose a game like this and to give up 135 yards to Wayne Galman Jr. I even know Wayne Gawman was a junior until just reading that stat right now. You know, they were dropping passes. This is, I just...

Well, and the fact that Russell Wilson looked really confused, by the way that the Giants were covering and defending their eyes. offense. Like it's one thing if that happens to Kyler Murray, but for an experienced quarterback, that's when you sort of wonder, is

there something unstable in just the way that offense is functioning? Because it would be less likely that he's just suddenly having trouble deciphering coverages and understanding where pressure's coming from. It worries me because when there's a game like this, I worry that

Pete Carroll is going to revert back and take the utensils away from Russ. Just a thought. He's denied Russ his skillet. He's denied Russ his skill. He's in a kitchen timeout. Yeah.

The thing about the Giants, there's a thing with the Giants, if you talk to people who work there, and I think they've done this in the media and public a lot too. They really love, there's a little bit of a dedication to just saying things like, well, everybody's wrong about us. Everybody counts us out and thinks we're so stupid, but they don't really know. And that's a dumb thing to do. Like it's reflexively defensive and they don't have the recent track record to really back it up. The thing is that they might not be entirely wrong.

It still doesn't mean that it's like really all that effective to just be like, you don't know what Dave Gettleman is clowning all of you and you don't know what it's, what's really going on here. But they did last off season, not that beefing up your analytics department is the be all and end all of like having a good team and turning a franchiser. around, but they went. They added a lot of resources to, to, um, the guys who run data for them and, and try to help design their roster that way. They obviously made the coaching switch, which it's too early to say, but there is some of the sort of cheesy stuff that Joe judge does that

maybe now that they brought in Jason Garrett. They brought in Jason Garrett. But you know what? Col McCoy won a game. So I don't, listen. I'm of two minds here. If they win the division, that's great, more power to it. I also think that they're five and seven. I know, let's not book the canon of heroes

for the parade here just yet. Okay. I think that there are, I think sometimes there are bad teams to make the playoffs in divisions like this where they probably get too comfortable or the team member, the Pete Carroll, Beastquake Seahawks team made it,

and that was, they were building towards something. Instead of just getting a cheap playoff spot, they were building towards something. So I can go either way. I would say, you know, I think it'd be great if they dunked on all of us. And I've been hugely critical of Dave Gettleman in New York and the steps he's made and overdraft and Daniel Jones and all this stuff.

I've been hugely critical. What I'm saying is that it would be really fun and funny, probably for all of us who've dunked on Dave Gettleman. And it's, it is, again, it's like, I am a Spartacus thing. That's like, we're all on this together, okay? And so I think it'd be really fun and fun. if Joe Judge and Dave Gettleman just wrecked us a little bit.

It'd be great. I'm in. They played the Seahawks, by the way, had the Jets next week. So hopefully a bounceback game. If they lose that game, then we can cancel them. Speaking of the Jets. Yes, but last thing on the Giants, I just think they're right now, especially Patrick Graham,

they're better than the sum of their parts, which suggests to me some sort of coaching momentum. I will say I'll get you out on this, on this particular topic. I've talked to Patrick Graham once, and he told me that he, Bill Belichick gives these incredibly long and intricate speeches about world history.

And so Patrick Graham just sits around watching the History Channel when he was on the staff. He sat around and watched the History Channel just to try to figure out what Bill Belichick was talking about. Still couldn't do it. All right. Let's get to the Jets who, they're a winner here.

Let's back up here. This is the winner. There are a second winner. they lose 31 to 28 to the Las Vegas Raiders in one of the games of the year. Okay. Darren Waller and Henry Ruggs do more for the Jets franchise than Adam Gase has done in two years. Waller had 200 yards. Rugg scores with the last play of the game.

It was a lot. Nora, where do we start? Well, we start at the end. We start at the very end of the game is where we start. We start with the Raiders having a third and ten. That was really third in the game from the 46. There's like 15 seconds left or something. And the Jets defensive coordinator, Greg Williams,

calls a cover zero blitz. So no deep safeties on the last play of the game. And this is like the moment in the horror movie when the teenagers say, oh, we don't need to bring our cell phone when we're we go into the woods. Let's leave it behind. Because the Raiders have rookie receiver Henry Ruggs Jr. who ran a 427 40-yard dash and is just not the player. You don't want to have any deep help

against. And we know how this ends. Derek Carr passes to Ruggs. All the Jets need to do is just tackle him, but they don't have anyone to do it. They lose the game. Therefore, they win in the big picture. but they come out of this with everybody wondering, was this a tanking move? I am firmly of the opinion that it was not a tanking move. I think this is part of the Greg Williams experience.

The jets are not smart enough. The jets are not smart enough to tank like that. Well, also, Greg Williams playing an overaggressive play in a pivotal moment and having it screw up in his face. And trying to show he's smarter than everybody else. This is not an original story. But it did seem like it really pissed off some of their players. Darnold just said it is what it is.

Marcus May said it's got to be a better call. So that's one of your best defensive players, the safety is saying, you put us in a bad position. You made the mistake. This is on you. Derek Carr said, I couldn't believe they all out blitzed us.

By the way, according to next gen stats. He said, oh, buddy. I didn't see that part. I just thought in a tweet. That's hysterical. But they sent eight pass rushers to get pressure on Carr, and none of them got pressure on him. So even the blitz didn't work.

the coverage was the problem, but even the Blitz didn't work. So, yes, the Jets keep pace and the Trevor Lawrence sweepstakes, that's great for them. They're a winner here, but I'm not sure Greg Williams is a winner. So I can't say we're all winners. Uh-huh. I think that, I think some are winner, some are losers, okay? And let's... Profound.

Let's start here with the fact that that coverage has never been called on record, according to the SPN in that situation, ever. No one's ever seen it. No one's ever seen it all all blitz with that zero coverage, with that little on the clock and a one score game. Never happened. Something called Hanlon's razor. Never attribute to malice, which can be explained by stupidity.

That's usually good rule of thumb in football. I'm just completely making this on the spot, but I want you to know I'm unveiling Gase's razor. which is don't attribute to tanking, which can be explained by being the Jets. That's incredible. Okay. By having Greg Williams is your defensive party. Or Adam Gase or whatever.

And so. Okay, but Gase didn't do this. Like, I'm not here to defend Adam Gase, but like we should be very clear how this happened. This was a, this was a Greg situation. If you're the head coach, aren't you like, hey, what are we going to do here? It's not like Greg Williams, like, went and went to his room and did this. He went to time out and made a decision. Yeah.

Yeah, I just, this seems like a Greg move. I'm attributing this one to Greg. Do we need something else to blame Adam Gase for? Like, if you really want to. Right. There's a lot to blame. There's a lot to blame on Greg Williams historically throughout his career. I'll say that.

So I think saying this is a tank move is letting him off the hook. The much scarier option. is they were trying their best. And that's the much scarier option for this entire year. Things like Marcus May and single coverage on Darren Waller, Darren Waller, at this point,

and Darren Waller and Henry Ruggs should induct Trevor Lawrence to the Jets Hall of Fame in 20 years. Like they got him there. They delivered him to New York. And this is at the same time, by the way, that we didn't know whether the Jaguars are going to win. We'll get to that game in a second.

But this was an incredible Trevor Lawrence day. and so I just think I was disappointed in the Raiders in the second year in a row where they've let the Jets go wild on them a little bit I thought that the Derrick Carr pass was great he almost won the game on a previous past the Jets were begging this game to be given away

Derek Derrick is by the way the past traveled 53 yards in the air second longest completion of the season according to next gen stats so I thought this was a weird game but I think it's almost a little collegiate where it's just just get the win and I don't I think this is more this is this game was more for laughs than anything else and I don't think the Raiders are that much of a threat um I think

if you're letting the jets hang around like this you're not much of a threat so I'm disappointed in them uh I don't I don't think they have much of a chance at the playoffs if you're playing games like this and I think they let that that that cheats game get way too much of them emotionally but having said that this was an amazing game well the Raiders have about I think a 50-50 shot I'm making the playoffs at this point. They would have fallen to like a 10-15% shot if they had lost this. So they're still in the hunt. I agree with you that they got way too,

they invested way too much into that Chiefs game. And it seems like they're a little off kilter now. But they are, they're another one of those teams that can just score fast. So on the right day, they're a tough team. But yeah, they had the Colts next week.

It's an interesting game. They have the dolphins a day after Christmas. I don't know. I mean, listen, they're mathematically in the hunt. but when you lose to the Falcons by a trillion points last week, and then you just, you should lose to the Jets. At some point, you're just not that good of a team.

And even if you make the playoffs, there's just no there or there. That's all. And that's the part that I would disagree with a little bit. Not that I think the Raiders are a fabulous team, certainly. We've seen enough over the last couple of weeks. Because they would play the Chiefs? They would. Exactly.

Yeah. But just the way that they're constructed and the way that their offense can get hot, I do, I can see it, right? Like there's some, and we see it because they can play the Chiefs. We've seen them play a really good team because they can score.

And because they can... The Chief Specialists. The Chief Specialist, Las Vegas Raiders. I love that identity for them. But I'm just saying that I wouldn't be, I don't think of them in the same way that I think of like the Patriots as a team where it's like, okay, great for you

if you make the playoffs, but I just don't think that you're winning a playoff game. They have enough offensive talent that I wouldn't count them out in that way. Yes. I'm sort of counting them out. I just, the last two weeks have been just so weird for me. And I like the, listen, I like what they're doing there.

I like the roster. I like Mayok. I like Gruden. I just, I can't watch last two weeks and be like, yeah, I can't. Here they come in January. What about it's a week to week league? I don't think they're, they're equipped in the week-to-week league to have that high of a ceiling. You do, apparently. Okay, that's, I disagree there.

I think they do, just because I think that they can score. If they play the Titans in January, this is a hypothetical. If they play the Titans 10 times January, what happens? Wow. I think it's, I think the Titans would win six of those. And they win seven. It would seven. Well, let's fight about it.

Let's do it. Let's get this going. They'll understand. Let's call them up. What about, or like a midweek pod special. Let's just do like an hour and a half on hypothetical. No, let's make them,

let's make them play 10 times in January. All right. Moving on to the Vikings and the Jaguars. So Vikings 27, Jaguars 24. This game should not have been that close. Mike Glennon explodes for 280 yards. Justin Jefferson, 121 yards. He becomes the fifth player,

according to NFL Network. and the Super Bowl era at a top of a thousand receiving guards in his first 12 games. Odell Beck, Marquise Colston, Anquan, Bolden,

and Randy Moss to the others. Obviously, Moss is the only Viking to have done. So this game was pretty close, nor right, that should not have been close. Yeah, well,

and there was the Levese, and Chesnel, had the lucky catch early that bounced off Viking defender's shoulder. So there were some things that drove up the score here, but you're right,

it shouldn't have been that close. And the Jacks did a really good job of getting pressure on Kirk Cousins. They've got some young defensive pieces that are that are kind of spunky. I'm getting a little worried. I'm getting a little worried that the Jaguars are not tanking effectively. Yeah. Well, I mean, I wonder what Trevor Lawrence was thinking when he and his designated map guru were parsing.

Oh, with the jets there. I mean, I can't tell if Trevor Lawrence would want to be in Jackson or not. I cannot tell. I mean, it's Florida. It's Florida. It's not too far from a. his home in Georgia, not too far from Clemson. I mean, obviously, New York

is still on the East Coast, so it's not like you're going to Seattle or anything. It's just, I don't know. I guess we'd have to ask him. I would love a truth serum. I bet he wants to, I bet he'd rather be in Jacksonville. I don't know anything about Trevor Lawrence as a person, but I just, I get like a He grew up a Falcons fan.

So he's into that kind of stuff. That is, that's going to, that kind of stuff. Like losing and that kind of shit. like losing in warm weather. Yeah. Losing, yeah.

Yeah. Losing in like 90 degrees in the summer and like 50 to 60 degrees in December. That'll do. All right. Let's move on to our first loser. Who else would be our first loser? But Carson Wentz. Green Bay 30, Philadelphia, 16.

Now, I want to unpack this. Because Jalen Hertz comes in, goes, 5 of 12 for 109 yards, by Carson Wentz, 6 of 15 for 79 yards. Jalen Hertz comes in, throws one touchdown pass. And my entire feed,

timeline, everybody who ever met in my life is on Twitter and they've become salary cap experts to explain what will happen when Carson Wentz is cut after June 1st. It'll be a post-June 1st designation.

This was a little bit sudden for me. I think that that contract is a little bit, this is a little bit cliche at this point. That contract's a little bit too big to fail. Okay? Like, you're stuck with him unless you want to take a gigantic cap hit. But anyway, leaving that aside, we'll get back to the cap one implications later. Let's start with the day the Carson Wentz had. So a report comes out, Jay Gleaser has it. And the report is that people inside of the Eagles believe that Jalen Hertz is a big reason why Carson Wentz lost his confidence. And that Wence didn't

enjoy it and all of a sudden he's got the yips or whatever. Second report is the Ian Rapp report says that Jason Kelsey and Carson Wenz and all these guys met with Doug Peterson. There was an accountability meeting, all that stuff. And that furthermore, maybe Doug Peterson's

grasp on his power or his job is maybe slipping. Okay. So let's say Carson Wence was having confidence issues because Jalen Hertz was there. Well, now Jalen Hertz has been inserted into the game. He threw a pretty nifty looking touchdown pass. There looked to be a spark.

Jalen Rager had that punt return after he was inserted into the game. That's not connected. But there looked to be a little bit of a spark. If your confidence was already hurting. And by the way, I'd argue if your confidence is hurt by competition, you never had confidence to begin with. And that's a huge freaking red flag. That's a huge freaking red flag.

When Tom Brady, when they would, do their mid-round pick bullshit or they drafted Jimmy Gropolo. He didn't freak out and then tell somebody that he lost his confidence. Like I, it's, there's a lot there. But if there were problems, they've been accelerated. Nora. It did seem like Hertz gave them a little bit of a spark. I think the problem is, even if it is kind of time to see and he already, he did more

than Wentz did in that game. And the thing with Wentz is just, he doesn't have anything around. He forgot how to play football? Is it that he forgot to play football? Right. He's compounding the issues because he's just frantic. Like, he's just frazzled. And one of the ways to get unfrazzled, and I would argue a much more effective way than, like,

rebuild this man's confidence because he lost it when you drafted Jalen Hertz or whatever, which is like, like you said, either a huge issue in and of itself that you're probably not going to solve or just a fake argument for why you would or wouldn't do something. A way to rebuild his confidence is to have a better. team around him. I don't think that he is in a context where you can really make a sound evaluation of where Carson Wenz is and what his future capability is. I do think, and Doug Peterson said he hasn't decided who will start next week.

And I think Wendt said that they just hadn't talked. So he wasn't sure either. Yeah. It did seem worth going a little bit further down that path. My question, and the technical term for the Eagle's salary cap situation is just not good. Not good. I would define it as is just that if once is your $128 million man or whatever, what is the value of it's time to see?

So let's give Hertz a little bit more run, which I am in favor of. I'm just asking, like, what is the value of doing that if the answer is ultimately going to be unless the results are just incredibly stark? There is no real logical way to move on here. So why do you, like it's worth seeing what you have in certain respects. But there is a little bit of a dead end, which to me is really scary for where they go because they need better players.

They need younger players. They need an influx of talent. But they don't really have the capability to go out and get it just because of what resources they have to spend. And so I'm curious to see a little bit more from Hertz. And he was the better quarterback of the two. But I just don't know what the natural conclusion of that is. Yeah, Hertz's yards per attempt were about four

yards higher than Wence on Sunday. Not a good sign for Wence. The problem is they don't have good players and that Wence is incapable of erasing the problems the team has. And when you're paying a quarterback that much money, that's what they should be doing. And maybe there were confidence issues because there's a statue of Nick Foles in Philadelphia and there's not a statue of Carson Wence and all the

weirdness around that. I get that. But at some point we have to stop waiting for this to click. I remember Mike Sando was on this potty cup weeks ago And he wasn't joking. He was serious. Like, why are we still saying that Carson-Winz needs to develop chemistry with these receivers in like week 10? Like, aren't other quarterbacks judged on just a different set of expectations?

And I understand this. You know, I was looking at some of the stats today. As far as sacks and receptions, no one is worse since 2015. Only Blake Bortles had those sort of numbers as far as being sacked 50 times and turning the ball over 19 times. I think Statt News had that. and listen, the pieces have been written. He's not hitting intermediate throws.

He doesn't have the same pocket presence, all that stuff. But it's just more than that. He's just not a good quarterback. And I'm getting a little tired of waiting around to find out if he's going to ever take a step forward. I mean, he's not 21. Okay. And by the way, I mean, like, it's been that 2017 season, even though he has looked really good at times in his career. that 2017 season looks like it's probably not going to be recapture again.

Okay. And I've generally been a Carson Wentz fan in his career, but I'm just not seeing anything right now. Let's talk about the contract. Because I don't think the Eagles... Go ahead. Just before we get to the contract stuff, I think the thing to, if you have to choose one place to start, and like we've been talking about, the thing that's scary about the Eagle situation, is that there are a lot of options for what you could be.

pick as this needs improvement. But if you had to pick, think about what's different between that 2017 season and now. Like what sticks out like a sore thumb is the protection. If you wanted to pick like A number one, how do you do an experiment to see if he can reclaim his ability to be a competent quarterback? Like he getting sacked 46 times in a season or whatever it's out right now, like he leads league. That has the ability to just get a guy out of his normal.

formal frame of mind and processing ability pretty quickly and in a pretty scary way. So that is where I would start to not just be completely like throw my hands up. They're all screwed. I don't. I don't agree with you. I think that if you, I don't agree with the one specific thing. It's your general premise. Because the 2017 team, which won a Super Bowl with Nick freaking Foles and scored more points

to any other team in the history of the Super Bowl. and outduled Tom Brady. That was one of the deepest and best rosters of the modern era. The cap was just managed masterfully. If you look at that, how everything was done, they had done all these innovative things. They had signed a bunch of one-year deals with guys and they were able to get them on cheap contracts going forward.

I mean, it was Howie Roseman. And, you know, Chip Kelly brought in some of that. It was Jeffrey Lurie. The whole deal, Doug Peterson, it all came together, and it was football magic, okay? So if you're saying that Carson Wentz needs to have one of the best rosters of the decade around him for success, then he's not actually the quarterback we thought he was. That's my problem with that. With, okay, he's never going to be the 2017 guy because the roster's not around him.

Well, if you need that around you, you actually shouldn't be making that much money because the money that is going to you would have gone to other people. Okay. So like that's the roster construction is going to be different. So it's got to be on you, Carson Wentz. And so I think that, listen, the Eagles have messed up a lot. Some of their draft picks have been very strange. But I also think that at some point, we just need to blame Carson Wentz for not for losing it a little bit. And it's not like he's working his way out of league or anything.

But I just don't think every time I watch him, 2017 gets further and further from my mind. And I think there's a reason for that. Now, I want to talk about the contract. Wait, hold on, hold on. I want to mount my rebuttal here, which is, that's absolutely true. There's a lot of space between that roster and this roster, but you can close the gap a little bit because the thing is, is that the contract is clearly a mistake. He has, so much of this is on Carson Wentz. He's clearly not playing like he was when he was at his peak then.

But since they can't really get out of it, if they don't want to kind of nuke their future, future in a scary way, then if I have to identify, what do you prioritize to at least see if there's something salvageable? It's through a combination of working with him to see if he can stop, you know, shooting himself in the foot by just being, like, frantic and running around back there and holding onto the ball for dear life and also improving the protection so that maybe he trusts it a little bit more because I think it's probably hard to distinguish both things from each other. And I think they're both relevant. That is where you go. I think that is where you go before you go. Okay,

let's talk about receiving talent. Let's talk about perfect chemistry with everybody. Let's talk about the defense, whatever. Losing Brandon Brooks and Andre Dillard is massive before the season. Massive. And so I think that there's built-in excuses here that are legitimate, but there aren't built-in excuses that are legitimate for being this bad. Yes. And that's, and that's, I agree with. Speaking of bad. Well, see with the contract. So the way I understand this, they would obviously, the dead money is $60 million.

We're so good at Segways. They're not going to cut them. The contract, it's a four-year deal. They're not going to cut them before. I don't think they're going to cut them ever in the next year. But they certainly wouldn't do it before June 1st. The dead dead money would be $60 million. Not great.

They don't have that. After the third day of the league year, if they cut him, so after the third day of the league year, which is in March, and then before June 1st, if they cut him then, it would be $75 million, which is getting less ideal. And then if they do it after June 1st, it's still $35 million in 2021 for the cap hit. And then the next year, it would be $24 million. The best solution when the cap is not rising as it is, is to fix Carson West. The Eagles are like $8 billion over the cap next year. It's not quite that, but it's not particularly close. Far off.

Figure out a way to fix Carson once. That's it because you're not going to get out of this contract. Or just be bad. Those are the options. This is one of the funniest contracts in history if it doesn't get sold. Because I used to think the John Wall contract was hilarious because it would look bad before it even kicked in, which is similar to this. But then the John Wall contract got traded. for a star and so now it's a little bit different

and now I'm thinking if this doesn't get better the Wenz contract is going to age really really bad I mean at least Jared Gough can throw the ball forward uh we didn't talk enough about the Packers Packers fans are going to get mad at us let's do very quick um and we'll hit them in the midweek show

a little bit more nice nice game for Aaron Rogers like this is just this is just normal for him um 3 25 of 34 for 295 guard three touchdowns Fonte Adams, 121 yards, two touchdowns. I will say, Devante Adams,

had an outbreak and route for the touchdown. Six of his nine touchdown receptions, according to the NFL, have been inside the opponent's 12-yard line and coming on outbreaking routes. I noticed this today, because he almost had another one. There was,

there's one out of the one. His outbreaking routes in the red zone, it's becoming like Jason Witten, where he only had one catch. Jason Witten only has one play that he does, and just repeating over and over again, like a hologram. like Devante Adams is so automatic now that it just looks like the same play is being run over and over again.

Not not like the same play design. I mean the same exact play and we're just replaying it. But they just took the game off and they say, why don't we ever play that play that play six times? Red zone God. Yeah, bad special teams by the Packers, but it's forgivable. Nice day for them. Nice little Robert Tonian touchdown. He's back.

Tanya and ball. Almost a second one. almost the second one. Aaron Rogers, again, like I saw some stats from from next-gen stats tonight about how the toning throw took over four seconds to throw.

And I think he leads the league in touchdowns and efficiency when he has over four seconds to throw. That's not much of a mystery. Nobody can buy time like him over the past 15 years. There are guys who are newer who would do it,

but Roger's still the king. All right, let's get to, let's get to a. let's get to another loser and really I mean this loser let me tell you something it takes a lot

for Carson Wentz to be the number one loser when the number two loser is Matt Nagy Lions 34 Bears 30 I just before I want to get your thoughts I just want to read this quote

from the press conference why have the bears fallen apart over the last two seasons Matt Nagy's asked in the press conference Matt Nagy's quote yeah I don't know that's your job man

you're supposed to know you gotta know what if the answer is even more damning what if the answer is in the mirror in the morning do you know who they play next week the Chicago Bears did they play the Chiefs no they play the Houston

Texans oh oh my first of all they need to They need to flex that game into primetime. They need to flex that game into primetime so we can just have a bunch of like Photoshopps of of Watson in a bear's uniform or whatever. And then the whole thing about how Watson may or may not have met with them, the whole deal.

Okay. This is the end. And if it's not the end, then I, I don't know what the end looks like. Okay, because it can't get any worse than this. Well, so let's back up to what the end of this game looked like. like, which was that the Bears had a 10-point lead in the fourth quarter. Yeah. Mitchell Trubisky fumbled at the seven-yard line with two minutes left.

Adrian Peterson scored the game winner. Capped to the comeback. It was Darrell Bevel's first game as interim head coach. He was super jazzed. The lions so accustomed to collapsing at the end of games met their match in the Chicago Bears. And that is how we got to 3430. Matt Nagy being unable to answer certain questions. I interrupted you, but I...

No, please. It helps to paint a picture. Please, please interrupt me on these things because I'm out of stuff to say on the bears. Mitchell Trubisky, 267 yards. Time to build around Mitch. Maybe we should start a narrative that the next coach has to fix Mitch.

Lock him in long term and fix Mitch. Fix Mitch or die trying. Yeah, I mean, I just don't know. know where this goes because I got to tell you I'm starting to look around open jobs in the league I'm looking at San Diego yeah screw it I'm looking at San Diego and Justin Herbert I'm looking at Jacksonville which just has a totally clean slate I'm looking at the jets will have Trevor Lawrence by the way Jacksonville have a nice pick there are open jobs here where if I'm a really hot prospect coach I'm saying I want that job and I don't know from

a GM standpoint, from a coaching standpoint, who wants this bear's job? Maybe it's Jim Harbaugh. You know, I was talking to someone recently about Jim Harbaugh, and we were talking about the perception inside the league. And they were saying, essentially, how NFL teams feel about this is that you know you're getting out with Jim Harbaugh. He's been to too many places to not know, which is you're going to get three years of great production and coaching your guys up, making them better developing these guys. And then by year four, everybody is kind of tired of them.

And then year five, like disaster strikes, right? Like, that's a general time. There's been a little bit, uh, you know,

he's left places or whatever, but, but generally that seems to be the pattern. Okay. And there are teams right now, bad teams, where you say, wait,

we can get three years of being coached up. Hell yeah. Like, I don't think that, you know, the Packers don't want that because they want to be a more stable organization. Hypothet.

I'm talking about, you know, the best, the best teams. right. The chiefs don't want that. They have a good coach. They're not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The chiefs, the Packers. But the teams that want to be on the,

the crem d'a creme every single year are not going to take a Jim hardball because they've seen how that pattern develops, right? But a bad team is like, we can have three years of good football until the bills come due. This is amazing. Bring in Jim Harbaugh. That is how NFL teams think. Okay. I don't know if I agree. I haven't even given enough thought to it. I'm just letting you know NFL teams think. My job.

And there could be a match there is what you're saying. Well, in so much that he used to play for the Bears and the Bears, I don't know who else the Bears are going to get. Well, they'd get someone, but I hear what you're saying. But who's someone? They're not. They're like, would Pat Fitzgerald? Well, there's only so many of these slots, right? Well, also, so, okay, they're probably, they would not get Eric B. Enemy.

No. But you start to go down the ranks of even like the hot OCs and say there's five job openings, seven job openings, whatever it ends up being. At a certain point, those are the guys that might be willing to take a chance to be a head coach, right? Like the Josh McDaniels is people like that who have already done it, they're not going to take a crappy job because they can't screw up again. But I don't know. I just, I always err on the side of there's 32 of those jobs and it's actually not that hard to get people who want them. but I hear what you're saying that a Harbaugh rebuild would not look unappetizing even where the bears are. Let's do it.

I would love that. I would love that. He'd be giving like insane, hyped up quotes about Mitch Trubisky next August. I would love that. He's going to say, Mitch is my guy. I love Mitch. Oh, my God. I don't know if that's a rumor.

He would do something so weird. It would be like Harbaugh's got Mitch like. reading weird books and it would be fantastic. I have a lot of weird Jim Harbaugh stories, but it's more of a mid-week thing. It's not in, we're a little over on this pod. So,

you know, we'll circle back on the Jim Harbaugh style. Wow. Harbaugh teaser. Harbaugh stories. Let's get to our last, our third loser. The Arizona Cardinals were now six and six.

Kyler Murray, I don't know if he's hurt or what, 173 yards, three touchdowns, one interception, which was a pick six, a fairly rough pick six. The Rams win 38 to 28.

Sean McVeigh has never lost to the Cardinals. That's pretty good. It was pretty good. So the Rams look like the Rams and the Cardinals are taking a step back. They are not the team that we thought they were going to be

a couple weeks ago. They have now they've now lost their playoff grasp. They are no longer the 7th C. The Minnesota Vikings have taken their spot. by a hair. I'm starting to feel like the Arizona Cardinals are just not the team we thought they were.

Well, so I think there's a lot of merit to that. The Vikings by record at this point would be the seventh seed. The Vikings still have a tougher schedule. They have Buck, Bears, Saints, Lions, the Cardinals have Giants, Eagles, 49ers, Rams. So, you know, there's tough

teams in both of those, but Arizona has a little bit easier skating. Arizona's got the red hot giants next week. the Red Hot Giants. But, and you know what? Those Red Hot Giants and the Giants defense might actually be kind of an issue for them because what we've seen from Kyler over the last few weeks,

and I think there is some sort of health component to this, but he is getting blitz a lot more and he hasn't, that there's a health component? Yes. Or that he's getting blitz more. I agree with both. One of them is a fact and one of them might is up for debate. And I agree with both of those things.

Great. That's fantastic. I'm so glad. But he hasn't played well against the Blitz. And I think teams are going to keep doing that to him until he can show that he can pick it apart. DeAndre Hopkins has also had three straight games with 55 yards or fewer. So you take away a couple of dimensions from this offense. And I think we're in a place where it's pretty clear that it can be out of whack in ways that we were not seeing when Kyler was a little bit more mobile and had all the web.

and everything was clicking a little bit better earlier in the season. And that's just a matter of they still have an opportunity, even though the Vikings are the team that's in right now because of the schedule, they could still pull it off. But it's just that they have to show that they can fix that. And defenses are going to game plan for them to stress those weaknesses until they show that they can stop it. And that's just what the end of the season is going to be like for them.

Totally. I do like the jail and Ramsey, DeAndre. Hopkins rivalry has just migrated to a new division. It's fantastic. Yeah. Rams, you get the best from today. I love that we have basically all of that division just in Arizona right now, although I don't really love the reason that it needed to happen. But it is, it's nice to think of them having like sleepovers.

You also had a take on this. I think you should share. Number one is that I believe McVeigh is never lost in Arizona because I feel like spiritually, he's a bit of a Scottsdale bro. Like, I feel like having spent some time in Arizona, I get the vibe just spiritually. That is his home. I will say that everybody in the NFC West from a coaching perspective, spiritually I could see them in Arizona. I could just see there's just an Arizona vibe.

Pete Carroll is like the cool retiree plays, you know, that whole, that whole vibe, Kyle Shanahan, your flat bills, Sean McVeigh, obviously. and then Cliff in his little home there. Russell Wilson gives off some like hanging out in Arizona in January vibes. Yeah. They would all have like they would kind of get into crystals and like have. Yeah. I think we might have.

I think we might be thinking of different things with when we think of Arizona. No, I'm thinking of like. Like outdoor bars. Like outdoor bars. Yeah. So my definition of that like Scottsdale Barbro, there's always. just some weird kind of like woo woo goopy thing in the mix I think also part of this is like a gender thing is that I think of the I only I just email counterpart NFL owners meetings were

always in Arizona and I would go over and just like have a drink in scouts down there should be like the broiest people you've ever seen in your life just packing after like a packing a bar after like an Indian spring training game and that's that so I think we got to a good place here all right let's move on all right it's time for the hurry up where we get to the best of the rest. Chiefs of Broncos, Nora, Broncos punted. Don't give Patrick Mahomes

a ball back. Don't be stupid. Ever, ever. Just don't be stupid. Ever. I like the Broncos fight. I thought they had a chance. Delay game penalty was weird.

I don't know. Strange game. But that's the moral of the story. Don't give the ball back. Don't give Patrick Mohams the ball back. Chief's last four wins have come by two, four, three, and six points. I want to go on record.

I am not, I'm not nitpicking until they lose. It's your pre-knit-picking. So, Saints versus Falcons. No, I'm saying I'm not going to. No, I know what you're doing. You're setting yourself up for nitpicking. It's called pre-knit-picking.

I just dubbed it back. No, I'm saying I'm not going to nitpick. We'll see. Saints versus Falcons. Are we going to see Taysam Hill versus Jalen Hertz next week? Is that what this is leading to? We might. Tassum Hill.

Touchdown passes. Mr. Touchdown now. Mr. Touchdown. The 30-year-old touchdown thrower. Patriots versus Chargers. We got to read our question, ask if the Patriots are now Super Bowl favorites. Oh, my God.

Probably. If they can play the Chargers, if they can play like the worst special teams in the entire league for like 900 years running every week, then yes. I think the Patriots win those games. Could you imagine how offended of Belichick

is to see that level of poor special teams play? The Chargers put it at three times. times and they had too many men on the field or they had the wrong number of players on the field for two of them like I cannot the answer to your question is I cannot he must have been literally holding his nose dolphins are spangles Brian Flores getting after it that made me weirdly emotional I felt like that was like a movie montage and he was standing up for his guys uh real quick we're running out time Colts first Texans Colts are back Colts are back We did it We snuck in culture back We didn't have time to say anything else

We didn't have yeah It's like I think we're getting into that place where it's like Apologies to Matt Damon Yeah yeah Yeah all right Listener questions Apologies to the Colts we ran out of time Listener question

I've got a couple here We'll go through them quickly Number one Zach Varda asked Was today just a fever dream Yes. Agree. Can I tell, can I say something quickly?

So I was, we had all the windows open just to ventilate a space because, you know, pandemic and whatever. And a bird flew in to an apartment that I was in last night and landed on a Christmas tree. And I had to spend like 30 minutes trying to coax a bird out of a window. So let's say. Yeah, well, so my strategy was kind of to be like a matri-D to just sort of look at him and gesture in the direction I wanted him to go and say, please go there, Mr. Bird. And he did eventually leave.

But there were a number of moments during that process where I just felt like, how did we get here and where am I and what am I doing? And I felt that same way today. Interesting. I felt a little bit like that when I was watching the Giants game. Like there was a bird in your apartment? Yeah. Daniel Paul.

Like the birds that are in LaGuardia airport. Okay, anyway. I was actually thinking about LaGuardia because that is the one place where I've seen birds indoors and no one seems to care. Yeah. Yeah, it's fine. Daniel Paul asks, if Kansas City got only three downs instead of four, how many teams, if any, would you pick for them, would you pick to beat them in the playoffs? So I think the Raiders. So I guess this gets it

This is like kind of a question for Warren Sharp Because he could run the The numbers on like first down efficiency And what would happen if he never had to do to go to third down? I think I think they might be able to beat some of the lower seeds I just don't think that I think that's a massive disadvantage

A massive disadvantage I think that they'd probably lose to everybody You think they would lose to Jets? No, no no lose to all the playoff teams. In the playoffs. Okay. I think that not having an extra down is really hard.

Changes play calling. It changes how defense defend you. I think it'd be really hard to win a game like this. It reminds me, I also don't, everybody, I remember there was a question years ago, reader question about if you just kept adding players to, like, if you added, so the hypothetical situation would be,

if you play the chiefs versus the Jets, but the Jets got an extra player, would the Jets win? Like if they got to play 12 players in the field. And I remember making a comment that was like the bills or something, would need 15 players to win? And everyone just that extremely literally.

And so I don't want to make the comment that the chiefs would win a game if they had three down instead of four. But I do think that they'd beat more teams than they should if they never had a third down. I think they would beat more teams playing with an extra player. than playing with three downs.

Like if I'm Andy Reed and you come to me and you say, you have to play the rest of your games, you either only have three downs or the other team gets an extra player, I would say give the other team an extra player. Because I think there's only, there's only, it's actually going to screw them up schematically a little bit. And that seems like a smaller advantage than three downs. I think you're right.

I think that's one of those could Alabama beat the Browns? Also, we have to update that because whenever, I want the trope for that narrative, I say, can Alabama beat the Browns? It's not the Browns anymore. Can Alabama get the Jets? I was thinking about that today because this is something I want to address actually. And this goes back to my, the people who are like, if you think the Browns are frauds thing, if you think the Browns are anything but a competent, well-run organization as of this year, you're just, that's just because you cannot erase the history of the Browns from your mind. Like they are, they're where they need to be. And you should not, I know, I know, this is hard to do with the Browns. You should not look too deeply at the history. With Andrew Barry and Kevin Stefansky, they're where they need to be. Don't buy into the last

20 years of Browns history. It's over. I covered a game in Cleveland in 2016. It was Tom Brady's first game back from his suspension. And the Browns were already... Let's always stop here. There. Who won? The Patriots won the game.

Okay. The Patriots beat the Browns. They beat the Hugh Jackson Browns? The Browns were already missing. They were missing two quarterbacks in the start of the game. Charlie Whitehurst played at one point. Terrell Pryor played quarterback at one point. They ended up going through, I think, five quarterbacks. And there's a hotline that is on a board in the stadium.

And it says, like, need help, text this number. and I wondered what would happen if you just texted it and was like, please find a quarterback. We need another one. Yeah. That's what I think of the history of the Browns. That was a tough era. But I think I don't, listen,

I'm not saying that they're going to be the Patriots the next 20 years, but what I am saying is that the absolute despair that Browns fans felt is mostly over. Were two of those quarterbacks Robert Griffin, the third in Colt McCoy, Legends of 2020? I think so. I think that's true. So to answer your question, Daniel, I just don't think that there's, I just don't think there's a way for the chiefs to win any playoff games with three downs. That's all.

All right. Clickbait headline. Nora, go ahead. Well, we're already in it. It's our, the Hertz era Eagles, they're going to cut Carson ones. stuff. I think it's going to be, could the Chiefs win a game

with three down instead of four? I think that's, we're due for a new cycle. I think it also is going to be Carson Wentz. I would say that because we'll see what happens on Monday night.

I also think that we're just at some point due for another round of buck speculation. They play Sunday against the Vikings. And I kind of feel like if you've read the two leaves last couple weeks,

that, you know, camps are starting to leak. There might be a little bit of drama here in the next four weeks. I just think that's something to watch just as far as what happens to an area and some Brady because it looks like both sides are taking a little bit to the media. And I can just see that this week. But I think if you're talking about Monday, it's all wents, all hurts. Well, and if the bucks look great, you're also going to get a whole cycle of, they need, they used the buy week and they self-scouted and they figured it out.

And it's all clicking. And that might be fake, too. So we'll get something. Well, it's all fake. It's all fake because it's 20-20 and nothing is real. And it's a fever dream, like the bird on your Christmas tree. I kind of missed him once he was gone. Like, I wanted to know that he wasn't going to be there forever.

Because sometimes he would fly around and flap and it would be a little scary. But then once he left, I was like, well, I hope you're not cold out there in the world. What an amazing way to end the show. I hope you're not cold out there in the world. He's been the Ringer NFL show on The Ringer Podcast Network.