The Ringer NFL Show - Week 15 NFL Power Rankings: The Panthers Climb, Shanahan’s Niners Still a Threat, and Is Jalen Hurts a Top 10 QB? | Power Rankers

Episode Date: December 14, 2022

Austin is joined by Steven Ruiz to discuss how the NFL power rankings have changed after Week 14. They start by talking about the Dolphins, the Chargers, and the discourse surrounding Justin Herbert and Tua Tagovailoa (1:34). Then, they get into the team of the week, the Niners, and how Kyle Shanahan is making it work with Brock Purdy (10:40). After that, they discuss the biggest mover on this week’s rankings, the Panthers (18:40), before discussing the Jets, the Titans, and the Patriots (27:56). Later, they discuss where Jared Goff and Jalen Hurts should be on Steven’s QB rankings (47:55). Hosts: Austin Gayle Guest: Steven Ruiz Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal and Conor Nevins Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Peace. We're out of here. Welcome into Power Rakers. Asa Gil here with Stephen Ruiz, the man, the myth of Lep of Lep of Ler. legend who's currently on my Twitter feed just arguing about PFF grades, his favorite thing to fucking do. It's great to have you. Jason Gough originally, and him and I were going to record this podcast. Three seconds in, his internet goes out. So you're the number two. You're the backup. You're blood sewing this thing. Yeah. No, I'm Desmond Ritter. He's Marcus Mariotta. He's scared to compete. There you go. There you go. Ritter coming in for Marcus Mariotta. I'm interested

to see how that goes. I think it's too little too late for the Atlanta Falcons to salvage this season where they're playing in a horrid NFC South. But who knows, man? I don't know. A lot could The Bucks can lose this week, the Panthers can lose this week, and the Panthers all of a sudden are alive in the NFC. South will be interesting to see. Where I wanted to start on the intro is on this feed, on the slow newsday feed, on pretty much any podcast talking about the NFL this week, is talking about the two-tung-tung-by-low or Justin Herbert matchup. And my opinion is, holy God, can we stop with this fairy tale debate about

two-a-tung-law versus Justin Herbert? I agree that they're connected ever since they were drafted in the same class, and I agree that they're connected and that both the quarterbacks have a lot of discourse around them, too, a ton of way little, having a lot of success with Michael Baino in this offense. And Justin Herbert, every single week, people are just hoping that they win more games than they showed. Or his box scores stats look a lot better, but he's obviously, in my opinion, and I think a lot of people's opinion, exceeded expectations within the framework he's been given, with Joe Lombardi, a slow receiving core, an injury plagued offensive line, etc.

How come? Why? Is that the discourse? Brandon Staley got into his literal baguette and just dumped on Mike McDaniel and like pantsed him in front of a national audience. Everyone wants to talk about two and talking about Lolo. What Brandon Staley did in that game, I thought was more impressive than what Herbert did and more impressive than what a lot of Chargers players have done this season. Staley, in my opinion, his coaching job on the line. If he loses that game, the Chargers missed his playoffs this year, I don't know if Brandon Staley is the coach next year. I don't know if Joe Lombardi's the office coordinator. I think a lot of changes have to be made if the Chargers missed the playoffs again.

They don't because Staley, who put together, and he said this too in his press conference, a completely different game plan than what San Francisco was doing. Yes. A completely different game plan. Yes, there were some things that were similar in that Tuotung Wailoa was under pressure and struggled under pressure, but it was completely different in the coverage he was calling, the percentage of man coverage, how much he wanted to beat up those receivers. He knew he couldn't get pressure with his front force.

So finding other ways to force Tuotan Vailoa to have that hitch in his drop, to slow down the timing of the offense, to slow down the pacing of the offense. Brandon Staley, in my opinion, is number one, two, and three, the reason the Chargers won that football game. Yes, Justin Herbert played really well. And I think anyone who's still having the conversation with Herbert versus Tuot-Tung by Loa, I think is only doing it for engagement, only doing it to pander to rabid fans that want to talk about these things that I think don't matter. In my opinion, I think Brandon Staley deserves the lion's share of the praise after that game for sowing down what has been one of the most lethal offenses in the NFL. Save your

to a discourse for somebody else, it's still been one of the best offenses in the league. Yeah, and I've been banging that drum all season long. I think Brandon Sayley's a good coach. I think he's a good game planner. And that's been evident every week. I know it doesn't always work out like it does because they don't have the horses, but I agree with you. And I tweeted that out on Sunday night. It was just as impressive as what Justin Herbert did.

I don't know if it was more impressive. I'm not going that far with you. But great game plan. And I think this shows the limit. I know you said savior to a discourse, but I think it does show the limits that a quarterback who, needs to be put in a certain environment, the constraints he puts on his play caller. Because you can say Mike McDaniel should have adjusted,

but what do you want him to do when his quarterback is throwing into windows that aren't there? Like, I watched Mike McDaniel's press conference yesterday, and he called out the whole team. He was like, oh, yeah, we need to do a lot. But he did it one by one. He said, like, the receivers need to do this. The offensive line needs to do this. And then he said, the quarterback needs to read plays out

and not throw and not lock onto his first read so much. And that's been the thing with Tua, and that's why I've been slower to give him credit compared to other people who build them up as this great processor. When you're throwing the ball in 1.5 seconds, you're not processing. You're throwing the ball because you have an idea of where you're going to throw before he take the snap. And that did not change against the charges when the windows that he had been throwing to all season long weren't there.

He kept making the same throws into coverage, whether he was open or not. So I think it was a great game plan. I am not going to, like, criticize Mike McKeown. Daniel for not adjusting because I think he only has so many cards he can play. I guess that when I said pants down in front of a national audience that was me criticizing Mike Daniel,

I do think that he was out-coached in that one though. I mean, I think that the Miami Dolphins came in to try and run a lot of the same stuff that they've run off-season after a game where Tuuchanga Vailoa easily looked the worst he's been all year and trying to run the same stuff against a Brandon Staley, you know, a coach of Brandon Staley that I think came very prepared for that game

and they just got exposed. Like nothing was working. But dudes were open against the 49. Niners. Dudes were open against the 49ers. Yes. No. I, two of a ton of lowest game against the San Francisco 49ers and that offense against the 49ers

was was a lot better than what the discourse was coming out of that game. In my opinion, I think Tootan Veloa didn't play well. But this Chargers game, Tonguevaila was awful. The offense looked horrendous. No one was getting open. I thought this game against Brandon Staley, he had a better, he had more efficiency and more success defensively than the Niners did the week prior.

Honestly, like legitimately. And that, in my opinion, again, the tip of the caps to go to Brandon Staley. if you want to have a conversation about who's better between Tua and Justin Herbert, just say that for somebody else. I think that's just ridiculous. I think it's ridiculous that these conversations happen time and dime again. And I've talked about, you know, polarization and the attraction to polarization and engagement, right?

When you're prioritizing metrics on social media or metrics in TV where there's no positive or negative, right? There's no positive or negative retweet. There's no positive or negative like in some ways. And there's no positive or negative viewer on TV. Skip A-Lis and Chandan Sharpe have made their entire lot. on that and that if you're watching, if you're hate watching or love watching, it does not fucking matter. Those are the eyeballs that they want. Love and hate. They want love and hate.

How you get that being polarizing. I think that's what we've seen and what has sparked this Tua Herbert debate. And it's led to a lot of criticism. It's led to a lot of criticism against Tua by Lua, a guy that I think is getting beat to a pulp every single week. And he's a nice guy, man. Exactly. I think that Tua didn't deserve this. I don't think, I think with, I don't know, man. It just fires me up because it's frustrating. I don't think it's necessarily straw man arguments and that, oh, wow, people now saying Tua is better than Herbert looks stupid now. It's like, no, I think it's more that we need to not sometimes engage with some of these things. I don't know. Maybe I'm getting too far now. I would say that, yeah,

I think you're right about the two, like the Tua Herbert thing was only one person. It was Dolphins fans, which like, that's what fans are going to do. But then it was a manual watcher. But this past week, it wasn't just Tua versus Herbert. It was, is Herbert actually good? And that came from reputable sources. It didn't just come from Emmanuel. watch it. It wasn't just a guy flexing for TV views. It was from reputable, well-respected NFL writers who presented this idea

that Justin Herbert, because of his stats, is not living up to the hype, to which I would say, please, please, please watch the games. Because how he played on Sunday night is how he plays every single week. I would argue that he played just as well as he did against the Raiders

the last, the previous Sunday, when he was getting ripped for bad stats. I have two things there. One, I did see that late, some reputable sources claiming that Justin Herbert wasn't playing. Whatever. I've said this on this podcast probably seven times now. The most blinding stat in the NFL was wins. And in the same way, the most blinding stat is losses.

Look at Trevor Lawrence in the discourse around him. When you lose a game, you're like, oh my God, he sucks. When he wins games, it's Trevor Lawrence great. That's literally what everyone does every single week. There's like math behind talking about players that win games positively versus talking about players that lose game possibly leads to discourse, leads to criticism. it's that simple, right? It's about winning the games, whatever. Two, I think when you and Solac specifically,

I've listened to this podcast feed a lot, and I obviously listen to you guys on other feeds as well. When you guys say watch the games, there couldn't be a more just, but condescending just kidding every single time you guys say. It's like kind of fucked up and rude to like just say turn on the games or watch the games, watch the film,

but at the same time it's just exactly what has to be done. Watch the games, and I'll add this too, because I think you need some qualifiers in this. Watch the games with your Dolphins jersey in the closet and watch the games with engagement out the window. Watch a full game. If you're an analyst or someone who's on Twitter, watch a full game and do not have the expectation that you're going to talk about or tweet about.

That's what's going to lead to actually having positive or even just substantial learnings from the game. Two, if you're not watching it with the fan hat on or the fan jersey on or whatever, you're going to learn more about football. You're going to. And I think it's a fiery discourse. It's an interesting one. I'm upset by it because I think Brandon Staley does not get his.

I agree. He was in his bag, guito. And it was fun to watch, man. And just to prove your point, like, you go back to that week two game against the chiefs. Same thing. Like, he, that was, that was a great game plan. But the chargers couldn't catch interceptions. And then Justin Herbert throws the interception on the miscommunication and they return the touchdown.

They lose the game. No one's going to give them credit for that. But that was a great game plan, too. And he's been doing it all season long. It's the same thing I've been talking about, man. Like, you go back to that game. People don't even remember it. People don't remember the Chargers playing that one.

Why? because they fucking lost. And when you lose games, it does not matter. Like, it doesn't matter how well you play. It doesn't matter that you're talking about, like, Gerald Everett was looking to get off the field because he was tired and then he throws the pick. It doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter. And that means the players on the team that lost are bad, and the players on the team on the team that won are good. That's what happens every week. That's what happens every week. If Justin Herbert had won two or more, three or three more games this year, people were talking about him like he's a Hall of Fame.

But the tape is no different. The tape is no different. And to join the Solac Louise discourse, watch the film. Watch the film. And if you think that's condescending, It definitely is. All right. To meet in the podcast.

I want to talk about my team of the week. And I put them as team of the week because I admittedly had doubt surrounding the San Francisco 49ers ability to win or contend for a Super Bowl when Jimmy Chirovropl got hurt. Now, the last time I recorded this podcast, the information wasn't out that he could be back by, say, the NFC championship or the Super Bowl. I think that Kyle Shanahan came out and said he's doubtful that's even possible,

but whatever, he could come back. Regardless, to get to the. the NFC championship to get the Super Bowl, they have to win two or three games in the postseason, that's going to be difficult to do. And I thought, even after the Dolphins game where Brock Party looked good and he came in as a villain starter, I thought, man, this is a limiting factor. I do not think Brock Borey is going to be able to come in into this Shanahan offense and have enough success where I'm buying the San Francisco 49ers the same way.

I'm buying the bills, the chiefs, the Bengals, and the Eagles and the Cowboys as as legitimate contenders for a simple. But after this game, when you look at the box score, guess what? You're going to agree with a lot of fan analysis on this one. They blew them out, right? 35-7. San Francisco 49ers. He beats Brady, Brock Purdy, the Brock Pot.

Everyone's excited. You go back and watch the film. I think even when the podcast, I recorded the podcast last week when I said there's no better coach in the NFL position to take a quarterback like Brock Purdy or backup anywhere and have success with him. I think I even underrated him when I said that. Because when you look at what Kyle Shanahan is doing to support Rock Purdy, it's incredible. It's incredible how quickly Shanahan is able to devise game plans. It's not that dissimilar to what he was asking of Jimmy G, but to devise game plans to prop up quarterbacks

and to see them have success. Where I think Brock Pordy is separating himself and not collapsing versus maybe some people's expectations to drop them out of the deep postseason hunt is specifically under pressure. What he's doing under pressure for this football team is a big reason why the same as Super 49ers are having the success of the last two weeks.

12 of 19, 151, two touchdowns did have the interception, but it was on fourth and four and a one-on-one with Brandon I. It was another throwball, whatever. But two TDs and interception. on 23 pressure dropbacks. Over the last two weeks, he's top five in eat pay per dropback win pressure. Now, I always say this is about pressure play for the quarterback position. It's very fucking volatile. It's volatile. The best quarterback under pressure one week could be bitch for and the next week it will be the worst one, right? It's a volatile area. But

quarterbacks that are able to, especially with Brockport to be thrown into the fire, not completely collapse under pressure are the ones that are super valuable in this league. And I think you're seeing that kind of confidence in that moxie when the pocket starts to clap. Some of that is shanahan. Some of that's pretty. When you compare it to two a tongue by law, that same stat, of the last two weeks, playing the Niners and Staley, he is averaging minus 1.1 EPA per dropback when he's pressure. He is objectively collapsing. And that's the difference between, you know, guys that are being largely supported by the system, Brock Pordy, confidence, swagger, not getting hurt under pressure, not making mistakes, drastic mistakes

under pressure. And that's what's keeping the same score 49ers offense alive. It's not that, you know, I know, I know, he's throwing the ball. This guy over the last two weeks has thrown five passes more than 15 yards in the air. He's completed two of them for 59 yards. and had the pick when he doesn't have an arm. They're not asking him to throw the ball down field. Five passes of the last two week is like bottom five in terms of, I think the only players that have thrown fewer are Donald and Tyler Huntley over the last two weeks.

Like, Jayhan's not telling this guy like, hey, get in there and cook. He's saying, hey, operate the offense and don't be shit under pressure. He's done that. Nine and just winning games because this is a damn good football team. My question to you is I have them right now at, I believe six in my power. He thinks just outside the top five in that kind of mix of flawed, postseason contenders. Is that too low? Is that too low to have the San Francisco

4.9? Should they be above a Cowboys team in the NFC? Should they be in the top five teams of the NFL? No, I don't think so, because I think it's smart to wait and see on him. My take on Sunday night was that I think he raises the ceiling of what the offense can be because of the stuff you're talking about. And because of his

it's not just like his ability to make plays, which I don't, I think is like outweighs his willingness to do it. I think he's got too much a dip on his chip sometimes. But he's willing to do it. And that was something that Jimmy G didn't do in the past, although Jimmy G did it some this year. But I do think he lowers the floor

because I don't think he's as talented as Jimmy G. And sometimes those improvised plays, they don't turn out well. It happened a lot at Iowa State. Kyle Shanahan mentioned it in his press conference last week where he was talking about, yeah, we can't throw the ball to the other team. We got to run the offense.

So I think Kyle Shannon's aware of it and working around that. But I mean, it's Shanahan. Like when we talk about teams in the playoffs, we're always like, oh, well, this team has Patrick Mahomes, this team has Josh Allen, this team has Joe Burrow.

And then you compare that to the 49ers and you say Brock Purdy, but I don't think Brock Purdy is the person you should name. You should say they have Kyle Shanahan. He's the quarterback. He's the quarterback. And as long as he's there, it's going to be fine.

And I was with you. I kind of underrated them or wrote them off after Jimmy G's injury. But Purdy's good enough. He's good enough. He might not be better than Jimmy G. Some days he might look way better than Jimmy G like he did on Sunday,

but he's enough for Shanahan. He clears the Nick Mullins bar, and that's all you have to clear to get a productive offense, especially with these weapons. And that statement alone, and I'll close the 49ers books on this, and that statement alone in that mystery relevant, the last player picked in the draft, his rookie season is good enough to contend for a Super Bowl as long as Shanahan is there. Give Shanahan all the money in the world. I know coaching contracts don't count against the cap.

That is the most valuable thing in the end. NFL. I think that is the most valuable thing you can be in the NFL. Someone, independent of the cap, whether it's an office coordinator, a QB coach or head coach in this situation, independent of the cap that can have mystery relevant be in it as a fill-in starter and you can still have success and you can still contend for a Super Bowl. That, I think, is a tip of cap to John Lynch and the roster that they've built, Debo Samuel, George Kittle, Chris McAfee to trade. They've done really good there, but it's also a massive, massive tip of the cap to Kyle Shanahan. Because that is, I don't know if there's any other coach in the NFL where you're this confident,

this confident that a coach, a quarterback could come in and have the success that Brock Pertie's able to have and limit the mistakes that they know, he knows Brock Pry's limitations better than Purdy does. And that I think is allowing, obviously, the offense to still have success. And none of us were shocked against a Bucks team. Yeah. And none of us were shocked.

Like, was anybody shocked? Everyone thought this would happen. Like he would look fine. No one thought he was going to score 35. But everyone was like, yeah, they'll be fine. Like Kyle, outside of the elite quarterbacks. And like for me, elite quarterback, like, the gatekeeper for that is Joe Burrow. Because I go back and forth every time I watch him.

I don't know if he's elite. I don't know. I think he's on the cusp. But starting with him and all the quarterbacks above him, every other quarterback, I'd rather have Kyle Shanahan if you gave me a choice. Yes. That's, I, so you have Patch for Holmes. You have Josh Allen.

Perfect. If you want to throw in some of the oldies, you want to throw in some of the oldies, like a, like a Rogers. No, I'm taking Kyle Shanahan over Brady. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll throw Herbert in that conversation as well. Herbert, Josh Allen, Patchma Holmes. I am taking Kyle Shanahan over probably any other quarterback in the league, honestly. And that is, you know, you bring up, I think the nerds get brought up.

You want to talk about, you know, watch the film coming with some condescension and some venom. When you guys say nerds on some of these shows, man, I think you guys are stuff for people in lockers in your sleep. Regardless, the nerds will bring up Jimmy Garoppolo's EPA for Dropback. He's top five this season. The nerds will bring up how Shanahan quarterback, specifically Jimmy Garapolo, a guy that he's tried to move on from, has had success from the offense. That is not the sight you think of this. That is saying Shanahan is incredible, sensational at taking a quarterback with tier three,

tier four talent, maybe borderline tier two talent with a lot of limitations and having success with them. That is roster building. That is Shanahan and the offensive scheming and all those things. Something he tried to get out of to elevate the team to get him over that hump with the Tray Lance trade, obviously. but man, it's crazy to see. I think he's the most valuable coach in the NFL and probably a top four quarterback if you consider his skill set

what he's able to do to prop up, literally the last drafted player, Mr. Irrelevant, through two games, 35 points against the box. All right, next team I have, and I guess I'm glad I have you on the podcast for this one. It's my biggest mover, and I'm too low on this team. I'll say it right now, too low.

It's Carolina Panthers. I move them from 28 to 20. Keep pounding. A lot of that is because, a lot of that is because, and I know your Panthers fan, A lot of that is because how I'm currently constructing the power rankings is heavily factoring in not just recency bias, not just who's getting hot right now, but also is this team legitimately have a chance at making the playoffs, right? Like, do they have a legitimate chance?

Because you're an absolute fool if you're putting together power rankings at, say, week 17, week 18, and your top 14 teams aren't making the playoffs. You got to have, you got to make sure that your power rankings are evident of that. So it's not taking in who's hot right now because I think the lions are borderline of top 10 team in the NFL right now. I think the Panthers are nearing like top 16, top half of the league. I think they're too low. But they are one of my biggest movers, and here's why. Two growing takes that I've had is this season specifically. As quarterbacks that completely collapsed under pressure are like ruining their chances of, you know, offensive success this season.

Zach Wilson literally was benched for it. True Tunga by Loa has been the worst quarterback in the league of the last two weeks under pressure. And you're seeing him and the questions come around him. That's one. Two is, I think toughness is back. All right, give me a second. Give me a second. Give me a second.

I think toughness is back. And that is Dan Campbell and the success that the Detroit Lions are having. And I think that's a lot of what Steve Wilkes and the Carolina Panthers are having. Bruce Irvin, long-time defensive player in this league, back with the Seattle Seahawks. He's played for a bunch of teams in the NFL. He had a quote, I'm paraphrasing, but he said, I got two kids at home. I don't let any other man put his hands on me. And I think until we have that mentality, everyone has that mentality, we're not going to be able to out tough teams like the Carolina Panthers.

Gino Smith in his press conference, obviously the Seattle Cocks, losing the Panthers this week. He said they were just tougher than us, more physical than us. And that, in my opinion, when you're looking, when you're like, Baker Bafel is our quarterback, Sam Daniels is our quarterback, or our offensive line stinks, we have a rookie left tag. When you're looking at all these things that reasons why your team shouldn't play well, reasons why you should underperform, if you can hunker down and be like, we're just going to

be beating some kids ass, we're going to be a little bit tougher than the other teams, and we're going to be more physical with the few talent that we have. And obviously, they do have some talent, Frankie Louvo, Brian Burns, Derek, Derek, They have talent, but so much what I've done, four and four since Steve Wilkes has taken over. It's a top 10 team in the APA per rush. They've found ways to get back to the ground game. I think is this toughness layer.

Am I honing it on the wrong thing? Is it just they were more talented and Matt Rule wasn't maximizing it? Or is there weight to this idea that in a league that everyone wants to play too high, everyone wants to throw the football, you get a coach that says, no, we're just going to punch you in the mouth. I think that's a zig that good football teams, see howl Seahawks. If they run into that zig or that zag or whatever,

expression is, I think they struggle against it. I think you saw that this week. Yeah, no, I think it's a combination of the two. I do think it's partly that it was underutilized talent by Matt Ruhle, who I don't think it's a very good coach. And I think we're seeing that. Like, the biggest, the biggest loser over the past month has been Nebraska football. But I would also, I would also say the toughness because that's what it is. Like, I think Steve Wilkes saw what he had. They have, they have some good pieces on the offensive line. They have some good pieces in the defensive front. And I think they're using them. They're leaning into them. They're leaning into them to win games. So I would think it's both.

And I do think toughness is back. And I think the way that the league has gone, you look at the defenses around the league. The ones that are bad are soft, man. They can't tackle. They just can't tackle. And I'm not saying they're soft like they're, oh, you need to be more manly or whatever.

Like they play soft. Like the coverages are soft. The way they tackle is soft. The way the fronts they play, it's just soft. And there's something about a defense that just punches you in the mouth. Like the Cowboys, Cowboys just punch you in the mouth.

That's why they're good. they're secondary, like, who's on their secondary that you'd want? Like, Trayvon Diggs is a great player, but he's not like Dorel Revis. Michael Parsons is obviously a freak, but like they get Michael Parsons that they go, hey, go punch that offensive line in the mouth, just beat them up, just be better than them. The physicality of the game has been lost. These millennials, these Gen Z guys, just want to focus on the passing games, the physicality.

But watching the Eagles defensive line over the last couple weeks, and when they played the Titans, a game where you have to get up for, where they're going to, I mean, Rable's going to show up physical too. That defensive line for Philly, Joshua, Domokongsu, Linball Joseph, Brandon Graham back healthy, was physical is all get out.

And when you go back to that game, there are Eagles fans that bring up, Jordan Davis was back for that. That's why the Derek Kimmel was limited. Jordan Davis played six snaps. His last snap before he rotated in with the backups because the game was blown out was when left tackle Dennis Daly,

threw him on the ground. And I think that they're like, dude, no. Like, it doesn't matter. We are not getting thrown on the ground. We are a physical team up run. I think that physicality for the Eagles, the Dallas Cowboys, the Titans in some ways, even with the injuries that they've had now, David Long on the Inter Reserve. This, in my opinion, is how teams, and getting back to this, how teams, like, at the bottom of the league, can

rally in some ways when maybe they don't have the elite quarterback talent, elite receiving talent, or elite talent in key areas to be the better football team, to be the more talented football team. If you're hunker down, you find a coach that can inspire players to show up, tough and physical, like I think the Detroit Lions have, Carolina Panthers have, I think you can get maximize that talent more, especially in a league where a lot of the bad defenses are very soft, like you said. I look at it as like a sock, like how soccer coaches kind of devise their game plans. Like the bad ones, they play a certain brand of soccer and like the good ones, they play another certain brand of soccer where they control the game.

And I don't think NFL teams do that enough. And I would say the Panthers were one of those teams where they're trying to play like a good team. Like you're not a good team. You have to try things to find edges. And I think toughness, like you said, like the best teams are able to pass the ball. So they don't have to lean on the run game. They could do all these other things, these things that we're calling soft right now. If you're a bad team that doesn't have the talent to match up, you can't play the same way they do. You have to play a different way. And bullying them and punching them in the mouth is a way that seems to be working this year. I think that's a point that people were making about the Giants early in the season,

where there's six and one, not a lot of talent. And there's a toughness. to that, but I also think it was just like, hey, we're going to like run like the option. We're going to do crazy shit because we are not the more talented football team. We need to do some wild things offensively. We need to call a ton of blitzes. We need to call a lot of man coverage. And now, I think over the last few weeks, you've seen, I'm not going to like the toughness.

Yeah, there is an expiration date on. Eventually not having a receiver that was originally the starter of the football team even playing this part of the week. It's not good. Eventually, the secondary that you're asking to play man coverage all the time that when there's injuries like a Dori Jackson's, it's a problem, right? there eventually becomes a problem and eventually the better football teams take advantage of it. But still, there are ways where, like, the Carolina Panthers fired their head coach and are, you know,

if they win this week and the bucks lose, their first in the NFC that South. Like, they are, they're in it because of Wilkes. And I have, I always quite, you know, I watch a lot of the, the miced up postgame speeches from coaches, trying to learn more about, like, what are you actually saying to some of these players versus what you say to media. I don't think you can learn, you can learn some things from some coaches and press conferences. Bill Belichick not being one of them. But knowing that, yeah, those post-game speeches are filmed, but they're still, like, saying it to these players.

And when you watch the Arizona Cardinals Hard Knocks with, like, Buda Baker and some of these guys, like, getting fired up, like, literally crying in locker rooms to fire these guys up, I do think I do think I don't put enough merit behind, like, just saying some, like, casual, tough shit, like gets these players in the NFL motivated. Like, Steve Wilkes and the latest ones, like, we protect the bank, which is the home stadium for the Carolina Panthers

and winning at home is so important. And saying things like, when I think about the grand team, it's like, isn't that important? Shouldn't you just win the games you have to win? And you look more at spread and matchups and all stuff. He's like, no, but players buy into that. It doesn't matter. Players like, yeah, we do predictive bank.

Let's fucking go. Like that, that matters, like what players, is I think something that me, a nerd, me, someone who stopped playing football in high school, I think is something that I forget and maybe don't understand enough in what motivates players? Because it's not, did you know when on third and seven, when you're facing cover two, your EPA per fuck off is this?

Like, no, it's not that. People aren't looking at that. People don't care. You need to be like, we're going to protect the bank. And everyone's like, look, we're going to protect the bank. We are going to protect the bank. And that, I don't know, man. Like, Brandon Staley wasn't, before the Miami,

Brandon Staley wasn't talking about like, oh, yeah, we're going to play with this leverage. We're going to get these guys in these windows. No, he was like, hit him in the fucking mouth. And we'll win the game. Yes. Yes. Yes. I think that, I think it is not as technological or nearly as mathematical as

mathematical as a lot of the analysis of the game is. I think it's, dude, I got a bunch of dogs on this team. we're going to fire away to rile them up. And that's what Dan Campbell does every week. That's what Steve Wilkes is doing in Carolina. That's what I think Daibald has done in New York, these coaches that are finding ways to motivate players. When you are saying a lot of generic cliche shit,

like Buda Baker crying, all he said over and over again, I'm tired of losing. That resonates with players more than a lot of what the analysis of the game is can be sometimes. And I think that gets underrated as we look at, you know, how teams are having success. And it's like, well, they're actually looking at their early down EPA and targeting these personnel wars, maybe.

But that stuff's not being said in the long. locker room. People are like, this isn't moneyball situation where he's like, you got to get on base and all this stuff. It's way more, hey, you got to just like punch that dude in the throat next time. It's like, okay, let's do it. The I don't know what I'm doing segment, everyone's favorite segment. I have in this, the Detroit Lions, who have number 17, which I think is terrible. I think they're a better team. They're way hotter than at 17. I have the Tennessee Titans and the Jaguars who are at 10 and 18 respectively. I think the Jaguars might be a better team right now, too. The Tennessee Titans are struggling, man, absolutely struggling. But still, clear favorites win the

FFC South. I think if they win this week, it's like an all but lock, or whatever. And then I had the Jets at 13, where I don't know where to put him. Mike White's only one and two that's asking people, you know, some people are back to believing in Zach Wilson because losses are blinding them again. But I thought Mike Whitehead's looked pretty good. Where do you want to start? Lions, Titans, Jags, Jets, where you at? Let's talk about the Titans, because I think it's somewhat related to what we were talking about with the Giants, where I think there's just like an expiration on good coaching. And I thought that the Titans' early success was just proof that Mike Ravel is a top five

coach. And that coaching staff just knows what they're doing. They just know what buttons to push and they know how to win games. They don't make mistakes. They let you make the mistakes. Over the past couple weeks, you turn on the film of that Eagles, Eagles game, like the defensive calls were good. They were in position. The Eagles were just a better team. And I, that's why I'm like, I'm hesitant to write them off, even though there is a talent disadvantage, because I think the coaching staff just needs time to figure out a new thing. Like, sometimes you get, you, you just get, like, offenses catch up. Defenses catch up. And you have, you have, to adjust. And I think, like, eventually they might be good enough to adjust to a point where they can

give good teams problems. Like they did against the Chiefs. I don't think they're ever going to be a team that's going to go on a run and win a Super Bowl, not as they're currently constructed, but I think there's still a chance that they get back to that being that pesky team they were over the first half of the season. Here, I think the expiration date, I honestly think might be, I don't know if I love that expression as much as I think I don't think it's as much an expiration date, but a ceiling, right? There's a ceiling. Yeah. Yeah. There's like a ceiling to, it's not like all of a sudden people catch on,

that's all you're doing, and then it's dead. I think that coaching, however, you can only do so much to hide the fact that your leading receiver is Robert Woods with 406 yards. Like,

that you can only do so much in Tennessee before like, wait a second. They might not have the dogs to do it. They may not have the horses to compete. And I think you're seeing that with some of these teams that I think that one game's early with some of these coaching,

right? the Titans and stuff like that, but they are now starting to falter off, even the Jets in some ways. Not necessarily because the coaching has an expiration date, but it has a limit, right? It has a limit because these teams that maybe don't have the same level of coaching, they get hotter down the stretch, you know, sometimes and that the talent starts to catch up. Like the Bengals. It starts to catch up and it's like, that's a great thing. Now, I think some of the, there's been improvement in those, in those, in those, in those, in those,

yeah, exactly. It's been better. But, yeah. But anyway, I think that with the Titans, I have them at number 10. I don't think they're a top 10 team in the NFL. I would not put them above 10 teams on a neutral field. However, 10th in positioning in terms of their likelihood to win the Super Bowl, maybe just because where they currently stand in the AFC South,

the likelihood that they're playing at home in the playoffs, and Rayball, Rable in a specific matchup can throw wrenches at you that people aren't ready for, literal wrenches sometimes, where they, he's swinging out there, swinging in the trenches. I want to see them get healthier. I think the receiving courties get healthier, the defensive line held taking some injuries, the lineback in court taking some injuries.

I think the secondary, this is the second worst past defense in the NFL in terms of passing of the last lapar game. And the secondary is getting outright bullied. You want to talk about like not necessarily a lack of physicality, but just like a size, right? It's like one of the smallest quarterback rooms in the league. Yeah, the Eagles game is tough. The Bengals game, it's tough, man. Like these guys are small. I don't think there's a single corner on that team that starts. It's over six foot. All of them have short arms too. Christian Fulton. And arm link matters at cornerback position. I think Christian Fulton has the longest arms of any of their like starting rotation of corners and it's like barely 30 inches.

It is a tough scene when they go against bigger receivers, more physical receivers, and that's evident in the stats. The other, or evident in the passing yards allowed and all that stuff. The other stat I'll bring up, but I'm interested in your perspective because I think you infinitely know more about script and off-script coaching and play calling and play design and all that stuff. But something that I see, and maybe this is me being scarred as a Raiders fan, knowing that Todd Downing completely fucked the Raiders progress.

But Todd Downing, in my opinion, has really struggled to call plays off-script. And when he gets punched in the mouth a little bit, right now this, season, right now this season, this season, the Tennessee Titans are fourth in ePA per play in the first quarter of games, trying to like bottle up those first 15 plays, trying to look at their script. After that, they're the worst team in the NFL, 32nd in EPA per play in quarters two, three, and four. Like this offense collapses. And some of that's like, you know, recent weeks, Derek Henry's been limited and all that stuff. But this is close the entire season. Like, when you get out of the first quarter, the offense has to, you know, has to react

to what the defense is throwing at them. I think they really, really struggle. And I think a big reflection of that is Downing. But, no, I agree. I've never been a big fan of Todd Downing. And going back to his Raiders days, I thought he wasn't a good offensive coordinator. I was really skeptical when they hired him replacing Arthur Smith. But that goes back to my expiration thing. Like, I'm not saying there's an expiration date on good coaching.

I think it's an expiration date on the approach that they figure out that works for them. And eventually you get film on. And eventually teams catch up. And they know your tendencies. And if you don't have talent, it's hard to go to a plan B. I think that applies to what you're talking about. Like, he could script all these plays and set these players up for success. But eventually the defense knows what you're doing.

And you're going to have to find a plan B. And sometimes you need to have talent to do that plan B. So, like, while I'm not high on Todd Downing, I understand why he's struggling. Like, the same thing gets applied to Joe Lombardi, who has no offensive line, no receivers that can separate. But still, you're not calling good plays. So I think it's similar. Talk about not good plays. It was tough to watch that Patriots game last night.

That offense is like legitimately hard to watch. And the amount of, I was writing about it in the power rankings file last week where, and Wilkes, or not Wilkes, Arizona, Vance Joseph. Vance Joseph had brought it up and that comment kind of went viral about him saying it's like a defensive coach calling plays. But when you look at the conservatism of this, it's hard to know what the chick of the egg is in New England. Is it Matt Patricia Jo-Judge, don't trust Mac Jones to throw down field.

So they call a lot of conservative things specifically on long third downs, trying to get screens and stuff going. or is it this defensive coach calling plays where he wants to protect the football, keep things short, all those things. I don't know which one it is. I think maybe it's a combination of both. But man, when Matt Jones is screaming to make the offense more aggressive, that's been like back-to-back weeks now, I think you are calling two conservative plays.

I think more of that is on Patricia and more of that is on judge, not able to trust the off, not able to trust Mac Jones to actually push the ball down field. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's hard. you watch their early season film and like they're calling more stuff downfield and like Mac was throwing downfield more often early on

but he was throwing a lot of interception so I think like that's part of it is he made some mistakes and I I would say like especially early on there was some guys open and he just wasn't throwing the ball so like he can clamor for less short or quick game but I just don't know if he's a quarterback

that can survive like that because he's not a quarterback that's going to hang in the pocket really like he no one gives up on a play faster than Mack Jones no one aborts to play faster than Jack Jones. So I don't, it's tough. It's tough. And I think a part of the problem, I do think they're calling the offense too conservatively. I do agree with that. But I think part of the problem is Belichick, like, I don't think he views the offense and the defense as two separate things. I think he views it as a football team. And like this, our defenses are strength. Let's not

mess up and not make their jobs harder. And they'll make the offense's job easier. I think that's part of it. I don't think that's the right way to coach like in this era. And I do think like the game is kind of past the Patriots way by. Even drafting Mac Jones in the first round is kind of an old school move because those guys don't go high anymore. So I think it's like you can't single out one thing. It's just a bad roster. I think a bad approach to roster building, a quarterback who is limited, who needs a lot

around him and they haven't supplied him with the stuff he needs around him and then throw in the Matt Patricia at offense coordinator. And like I'm not surprised this offense is very hard to watch. I think over the last, this is somewhat of a tangent, but over the last, the last two off seasons, two or three off seasons, we saw the New England Patriots with the spending spree that they had, John O'Smith, Hunter Henry, Kendrick Boren, Jalen Mills, they brought in Matthew Judon. Some of those have hit, some of them have. I think a lot of them that haven't hit had, had it's been on the opposite side of the ball. that has not panned out. I wouldn't necessarily say it's been a disaster

given what Judon has been able to have the success that he's had defensively, but at least in how they built the offense, it was not the success they were probably hoping for. And I think every single week, we talk about these weapons not being enough. And I think we're saying the same thing in Jacksonville, who came off a little bit of a spree themselves,

and Kirk and Zay Jones and Evan Ingram and tried to really get it going. And Zay Jones, I think we find ourselves when we talk about this Jaguar, man, if they can just get some improvement, when you look at their cap situation next year, not ideal for the New England Patriots or Jackson and Jaggers

because of some of these sprees. I think it would be interesting to see how they continue to build around Mac Jones and obviously the Jacks continue to build around Trevor Lawrence. One thing I would say is, I think they really messed up because they spent all that money in free agency

bringing in these guys and then they drafted Mac Jones, who I don't think they thought they would get. This is not an offense that Mac Jones should be running. This was an offense built that I think would have built or worked best with Cam Newton, like a running quarterback, not even specifically Cam Newton,

like a running quarterback who makes the run game easier. They can't run the football. If you can't run the football, how does the play action offense work? I think that was the problem. I don't think they built the right offense around Mac Jones. So we can complain about the offense they're not running, but they don't have the dudes to run that offense.

So I do think it goes back to team building. A couple of the teams I want to bring up in the, I don't know what I'm doing, and then we'll preview maybe the game of the week or get your game of the week and talk some quarterbacks. I'll save the Lions discussion because I know you want to talk some Jared Goff. They're overperforming versus expectation. I have them at 17, but they probably should be higher. They're a lot hotter now than they were to start the year. They still probably

have to win out to make the postseason. It's probably why they're lower. I don't know if they have the best path to the Super Bowl, but man, they're playing really, really good football right now. Jared Goff, fourth, an EPA for draftback in the NFL. I think he's top five and win-kept clean. And I think that the talent that they've been able to surround him with and the development that they've had with the talent and Amon Ross St. Brown, DJ Clark, now playing well now that he's healthy. Benet Sewell catching touchdown, not touched out first down. Jonah Jackson, I think, is an underrated guard in the NFL. Their defensive line is loaded.

I think the Detroit lines are in the makings of being a legitimate, legitimate contender. Maybe not this year, but next year. Let's talk quickly about the Jets. The Jets, Mike White, one and two, since replacing Zach Wilson, I don't know necessarily if that record reflects how much he's elevated the offense, in my opinion. I think the biggest difference is this. Keeping the offensive schedule, but two, when he is facing pressure,

like I talked about what Tutank-Wil-Wil and not doing, and what Brockporty is doing, he is not completely collapsing. You know, in the three weeks he started, he's the fifth ranked quarterback, and he paid for dropback when pressured. And then in that same statistic was Zach Wilson, he ranked 33, 34, in that same statistic when obviously he was starting and before he was bench. I think Mike White, what he's doing under pressure to keep the Jets office for being heinous is massively important and also keeping the offense on schedule.

Yes, he's one and two on my right to have the Jets at 13. And I guess what has your opinion been of Mike White as a start? I think their team sounds right. I like this team. I like Mike White. Like as a fill in quarterback, I think he's way better than Zach Wilson. Like the offense just looks completely different.

It makes it viable. Quinn and Williams' health, I think is a big deal. I know like he's supposed to come back. He's supposed to play. But if he's not 100%, he's the best player on the team. And I think against the Lions, who they play this week,

he's a very big part of that game because you have to disrupt the offensive line. You have to disrupt Jericho in order to get that offense off schedule. So I really like this team. I like all the defensive pieces. I'm iffy on the offense right now, just because I don't know if they have the dogs to run an offense efficiently.

But Mike White's fine. I mean, he's fine. I don't think Jared Gaught, I don't think there's a huge, massive advantage in quarterback in this matchup coming up this week, is what I would say. Like, I think if you switched Mike White

and Jared Goff, I think both of these teams would look the same right now. Oh, wow. Mike White gets some praise there. I mean, I don't know. Well, Jared Goff gets sought in half and still be able to field in the fourth quarter,

I think that's one of one. Mike White, the guts and the toughness he displayed. He left the game twice after taking massive hits, and I think the first hit he took in the second quarter where he originally left the game, didn't get as much publicity because the second hit was like so much worse when Matt Belano came in and then like, literally cut him in half.

But he got hurt in the first, you know, second quarter, comes back, takes that hit from Matt Blano, comes back, is able to, like, get this game with there. It's like a one-possession, hellmery type of thing. and then leaves the game in an ambulance. And it's still expected to start the upcoming week. That's, you want to go say toughness is back. Stuff you're talking.

Yeah, right. Yeah, that guy is back. That guy is, you know, that's why they're wearing Mike White T-shirt. Like, if you came to the Jets locker room and you're like, oh, yeah, look at his EPA under pressure, like the, you think sauce gardener cares? No, he sees him get, no. He sees him get reversed Johnny Knox and he comes back into the game and is he still playing. Yes. Yes.

I mean, that is, you know, I think stuff that is unveiled when you look at some of the mic'd up moments and the little bits of information. you're able to see in practices, maybe on the HBO, Hard Knock stuff and all that, about what players care about and what motivates players, right? And I was talking to a coach in the off season, and he said with rookies coming in, sometimes the biggest deal, the biggest thing that we look to do is how do we motivate this player?

Like, what is he motivated by? Is it incentives? Is it money? Is it whatever? And I think finding what that is for your team collectively is difficult, but oftentimes what it is is back to the roots. It's like saying we got to protect the bank and random shit like that

or random nicknames like the Brock or Big Cock Brock any of that stuff is what keep the team going. All right. Games of the week, I want to throw some at you.

I don't know which one you're going to go with. But I think there's a lot of good games this week. It always gets good towards the end of the season. You got Niners at Seahawks in a short week.

Seahawks, Gino Smith threw two picks last week. I don't think it was a terrible game from him. It wasn't a good one though. Seahawks are three and a half point dogs at home.

Ravens at Browns. Browns favored by three. Over Baltimore, I think Tyler Huntley is expected to start against Cleveland. Dolphins at Bills, probably the largest spread I have on this list that could be considered for game of the week, but obviously to what were powerhouses, maybe no one thinks the dolphins are good anymore. But bills are seven and a half point favorites at home in that one. Lions Jets, two teams that need wins right now, both on the bubble for the

hunt. Jets are a one-point dog at home, Detroit going to New York looking for blood. Steelers at Panthers are two and a half point favorites of the Steelers. Steelers are out of the playoffs, but man, Panthers need every single win and they've been a fun team to watch. Titans at Chargers. Stiles make fights, and I think this one's going to be interesting. Brandtalee versus Tennessee. Chargers, minus three.

And then Bengals at Bucks, that one's going to be an absolute treat. I think Luana Rumo against Tom Brady, I think could be interesting. But bucks are three and a half point dogs. And then Sunday night football, essentially a playoff game for both teams. Giants at commanders.

Commanders have played one team in three weeks. They played the Giants, and they went on a buy, now they're playing another team. Edge and rest, the edge in preparation. They're four and a half point favorites at home. What's your game of the week? where's your mind go? I think there's a lot of good ones.

It's still builds dolphins for me. It's Bill's Dolph for me because I want to see... Because you just want to shit on Tua. You just want to shit on Tua. I get it. I get it. You're fine. You're fine. You're fine. You just want to shit on Tua. You want to call out Tijuana. You want to blame PFF grades. You want to stuff some nerds and lockers. I get it. I get it. No, no. I'm going to put my football analyst ad on here. I think it's a good test for both teams. I think what we've seen over the... Especially the bills. And the bills are the team I think can win the Super Bowl here. we've seen teams bully the receivers at the line,

jamming at the line, and have success with that. And they play a little more man in covers, stay tight to routes. The bills haven't been doing that a lot. And I think that's something they need to figure out and something they need to be able to do when they get into the playoffs.

They got Trey White back. I want to see how they handle these receivers. And if they're able to replicate what the 49ers did and what the chargers did, those are two teams that don't have, like, world beating cornerbacks. It should be a recipe you're able to replicate. And if the bills can't do that,

then I do have concerns about this team going into the playoffs. And then on the other side of the ball, that Miami defensive line, man, Christian Wilkins, it's been like that. It's been like that all season long, too. Like Sunday night, that was more of the same for him.

And then Jalen Phillips is coming on. I think Chubb is a good player. This builds offensive line, man. I know people are giving Ken Dorsey a lot of shit, but I don't know what you can do around that interior line. It's just not good. You can't run the ball. You can't hold up in pass protection.

I mean, how do you call an offense like that? So I think that's a good test for this offensive line and Kent Dorsey as he tries to work around and mitigate this problem, I really want to see them unleash Josh Allen as a runner. He ran 10 times last week. And I think that was a product of the weather. They couldn't throw the ball. So they were like, all right, this is the only thing we can do. What I've been saying all season long, my theory is he's going to start running Josh Allen when we get down to the nitty gritty, when we get into the playoffs, when the game start mattering. I think this is a game that really matters. I want to see Josh Allen unleashed. And I want to see empower this run game and fix the issues that I think have been

festering all season long. I do think there are issues that they can address, and I think this is the first opportunity. I'm glad you're poor and praise on the Miami Dolphins' defensive line. Christian Wilkins, I think, is a star. I think we're in the golden era of defensive tackle talent, right? I think there is so many good defensive tackles. Dexter Lawrence, DJ Reeder, Quinn and Williams, obviously Aaron Donaldwyn Healthy is always a driver or not. Chris Jones. Derek Brown. There's a lot of talent at into your defensive line right now. And I think we're in a golden era of it.

Christian Wilkins is one of those. I think Zach Seeler for the Miami Dolphins is also playing well. I like Jalen Phillips a lot. Bradley Chubb. This is such a talented defensive line. I don't think they need to blitz as much as what you're doing. I don't think they need to blitz as much as they're doing. And I think getting pressure with their front four is something more than possible.

I think they should try and lean into that more and avoid the blitzes. We'll see what they do there. For the dolphins, I'm excited to see how different the offense looks and how different the game planer or the philosophy looks with McDaniel now in back-to-back weeks having to call around some limitations of the quarterback and two really good defensive game planning teams, two really talented defense.

Now, I wouldn't say the charges are talented defense, but whatever. Two teams really beaten up on it. I'm interested to see the Zick. Because I still have faith in Mike McDaniel as a coach. I don't think that the last two games have moved me off of that. I think Mike McDaniel is, a really, really talented young coach and experience,

but a really, really talented coach. I'm interested to see what he does against Buffalo. That's probably one of the best games. I don't know, though. I'm looking at Bengals Bucks. I like Giants' commanders. We'll see. But we always let you, we always like golf pick the game of the week.

We're going to stick with your game of the week. You want to watch the Bucks offense willingly? Yes, yes. I need, I find it, I find it exciting to see, you know, we talk about slow teams in the NFL. Are the Bucks the slowest team in the league? When I watch their offense, it is painful, man, painful to see. And they just cut Jalen Darden, who was probably one of the fastest players on their team.

Like, this is a slow football team offensively and defensively. There aren't even burners at corner for this team. Levante David and Devin White might be one of the two fastest teams. It is a slow football team on both sides of the ball. It looks lethargic every single week. That has become fun to watch. I'm excited to see what Lou Enorumo does to put Tom Brady in a little bit of a body bag. All right. I'm anti-Bradie.

I've been that way since my dad said that my dad, I'll never forget. It was after, obviously, my dad is a big Raiders fan. We had seen tickets for like 10 years. I said Tom Brady's the devil. This is the worst player in the league. You never root for him. I've been against him ever since, man. It's tough. It's tough.

I have to be against Tom Brady. That's what my dad said. I'm with him. I'm with him. Quarterback rankings. You want to talk some Jared Goff? Yeah, let's talk to your talk. I'm kind of interested in Jared Goff.

I think we had someone on this podcast feed, specifically Danny Kelly, say that the lion should build around Jerry Gough, maybe he's the future in Detroit. Bring Danny on the pod right now. Let's bite him. Let's ask him to watch the film and call him a nerd. But I think there's going to be that kind of conversation, right, especially if they go to the playoffs.

If Detroit goes to the playoffs, there's going to be not conversation just from the aches of the world or the Kelly's in the world, not to put them in the same sentence. But there's also going to be conversation within the lion's locker room, within the lion's front office to be like, hey, Jerry Goff took us to a playoff game and do we start to kind of build this thing around him?

Give me the reason why and give me the reason why not. The first thing I'll say is don't worry, Lions fans. He'll give you a reason why if they do make it into the playoffs. But I mean, we've seen this movie before. Do we really need to do this again? We had this same conversation in 2018. I remember those conversations. I remember people posting clips of his long throws.

I remember that game, that Thursday night game against the Vikings when him and Kirk Cousins like just were exchanging bombs back and forth. And everyone was like, how could you say this guy's a system quarterback? Look at these throws. He's a system quarterback. He's the same player he was then. I just got done watching that film. Same exact player.

Every time there's a big throwdown field, someone's open, the pocket's wide open. Whenever there's a little bit of pressure, he just breaks down. He can't read a defense. I don't know what else. Like, he's not a good quarterback. He's a quarterback that needs, he's an early down quarterback. Are we talking about Jared Gawf or Chua? Let's keep it to goff.

Jared Goff. I mean, we've had this. It happens every year. There's always a guy. Baker Mayfield in 2020, is he a top 10 quarterback? Watch the film, man. No, he's not.

Just watch the film. Jerich golf, enough with Jared Goff. I think he's a worst player now than he was in 2018 because I thought he had more physical talent back then. I think his arm strength is still very good, but it wasn't what it was back then. I don't see how he's improved. I just want someone to,

I just want one person to tell me how he's improved. Is EPA for play? Specifically. Right, that's what they is. They just point to the number. I know. That's what so much of the discourse is. You know, you look at a graph and, like, did they win a game recently?

Yes. Okay, we're probably going to talk about them positively. Is there an advanced stat or even box score stat? Fucking touchdown passes that says he's good. Yes. And it's like, okay, he's good. I mean, that's how it works. 2018, very good supporting cast.

Very good play calling. He was good. footing up great numbers. 2019, supporting cast falls apart. Defense kind of figures out Sean McVeigh forces him to adjust on the fly. His numbers,

mediocre. The next year, they rebound a little bit, a little bit better. He goes to Detroit. Awful supporting cast. He's one of the worst quarterbacks in the league,

and then he gets a good supporting cast, and all of a sudden, he's back up to where he was in 2018. Like, I feel like I'm going crazy. There's a very clear correlation here. And why am I the only one that's seeing it right now? I don't understand.

And you don't want to play, you don't want to play the yo-yo game of our quarterback's good when the supporting cast is good. But he's bad when the supporting cast is bad, especially when you look at Jared Gough and the contract that he has. It's different when you're working with Mr. Irrelevant. You know, it's different when you're working with a Brock Portie or a quarterback's where you're not, there isn't like this long-term investment in the QB that where decisions have to be made. It's like Daniel Jones, right? If Daniel Jones had two or three more years left on his rookie deal, you're probably not even like talking about it. You know, you're like, oh, yeah, we're going to keep them. We're going to continue to build off this.

But because he's going to this contract year, then you have to kind of say, okay, is this good enough? Is this type of quarterbacking good enough? And the Giants haven't won a lot of games recently, so people think Daniel Jones sucks again. This is a yo-yo that we play. But it'll be interesting to see what ultimately happens with Jared Gough. Because I think in this situation,

I love this phrase from Noro Principi. Celebrate the right parade, right? As a fan, it's important to celebrate the right parade. and the right parade is the team has exceeded the expectations. Jared Gough is playing better and playing up to the talent level of supporting cast and it's allowing you to evaluate players you probably couldn't with the worst quarterback. But it's not time to start saying, Jared Goughf, let's sign him to a four-year, five-year contract,

and let's look at the Super Bowl. Like that's not what you should be saying. So look at the right parade, evaluate, watch the film, get out of the lockers, nerds. All right, one more quarterback I want to bring up and then I'll let you go. Jalen Hertz. Jalen hurts. I think when I look at your mentions, which I do every night, right before I go to bed, I look at your mentions on Twitter.

A lot of people are upset about your positioning and where you have jail and Hertz. Is he moving up this week after what has been a couple weeks now where you're like, oh man, this guy's downfield passing, in the pocket stuff. They're asking him to do things that he wasn't doing earlier and he's driving. Is he moving into the top 10 or top eight of quarterbacks this year?

This guy's the favorite to win the MVP, Stephen. Is he better than you think? Let me hear it. I think he's going to move into the top 10 this week. I haven't finalized the rankings. but my thing is, okay, let's forget about Jalen Hertz for one second. You give me the best offensive line in the NFL. Give me maybe the second, third, first,

I don't know how you want to rank them, best wide receiver tandem in the NFL. Give me a good tight end. Give me a good scheme. Now put the 10th best quarterback in that situation. What would you expect the results to be? A lot of what we've seen. Now put Patrick Mahomes in that environment.

And what would you expect it to be? Anyone, and I don't know if you're straw manning right now, but anyone, anyone that is comparing Jail and Hertz to Patch Mahomes and with legitimate understanding of the game and saying that he's better than what Mahomes has been this year is not watching it. They're not seeing it. They're not believing it.

They probably have an Eagles tattoo. I don't think that's the case. I don't think that's been a comparison that's being made. I'm just using that. I think like if you put like a different, like a better quarterback, You don't even have to say, put Joe Burrow in it. I think he elevates the offense a little more. Like, this is what, he's the, why is it so bad that I'm calling him the 10th best quarterback?

Because he's putting up better numbers than that and he's winning more games. It's literally the stats. It's the theme of the entire podcast. My response is always, I post his attribute grades. I post the scouting report and I ask people, what do they disagree with? And there's never a response to any, like, whenever they criticize my rankings. I would just want to know, like, what does he do better that I'm not giving him credit for? I would argue, like, this week going in, I think,

I think I need to give him more credit for being accurate. I think he has been more accurate over the past month. I've been kind of slow to give him credit for that. I agree with that. Because I think I have him at like an 80. This past week, he was very accurate. And I think he has been for a month. But other than that, like, I'm giving him credit for everything else that he's good at.

Like, he's got 100 for creativity. I can't put it any higher. I mean, I guess I could because I gave Lamar at 120. But that's different. Like, his arm talent, he doesn't have a tremendously strong arm. I give him credit for his arm talent. I give him credit for, I don't think he's great in the pocket, but I boosted his pocket presence grade.

Like, what else do I do? I want him to be higher too. I don't want Eagles fans to yell at me, but I have to put what I think he is. Let me get in here. Let me get in my bag. So on the quarterback rankings, you can go to QB rankings out of the ringer.com.

The grades that you have at your disposal are accuracy, arm talent, creativity, which bowels up a lot. I think that almost needs to be spread out of it. But who knows. Creativity, decision-making, pocket presence, pre-snap. The number one thing that I think is that that isn't quantified here, at least maybe not accurately, but whatever, is mobility, right? Or like his impact as a runner. I think creativity is trying to capture that.

That's what I'm assuming. But when you said, when you said, if you put the 10th best quarterback in this offense, how do you think they perform? I think the only difference is, is that if I was thinking of a random 10th best quarterback, I don't know if I'd think that they have the mobility that Jalen Hertz has. And what he's able to do as a designed quarter, like on design quarterback runs. Jalen Hertz is what, top three in the NFL, probably Josh Allen Lamar Jackson. I think Jalen Hurts is right there. He is a difference maker with his feet. And I think within how the attribute grades are displayed within the quarterback,

maybe that's not captured as much, right? Because you kind of have to bottle a lot of that into creativity. And if there was maybe pure mobility or impact as a rusher, I don't know what that attribute grade would be, I think that would positively impact him to a point where he's already in the top 10. No, creativity, the goal of creativity, and we don't have the descriptions in there. I think we'll add that eventually, but creativity is, like, he gets credit for that. It's like what you're creating outside of the offense when you have to create. Gotcha, gosh, in that case.

So, like, Tom Brady could get a, I think Tom Brady's like, he started out higher. It's gone down because he doesn't want to hold the ball at all. But Tom Brady, like, created offense because he was willing to stay in the pocket and get through his progressions. He'd get five in the progression, unlike other quarterbacks. So it was a way to like kind of not punish a quarterback that doesn't need mobility to be a good quarterback like Tom Brady while also giving credit to a quarterback like Jalen Hertz who brings something different to the offense to the offense. My thing is if you put him in Justin Herbert's place, are we having the same conversations? I think I would be higher on Jalen Hertz than most people would be if that was the case. I would still have them around the same area.

I was higher on Jalen Hurts than most people coming into the season, but somehow I ended up being the underrating, I'm underwriting him. I don't know. I just think that I'm just like not, I'm not overreacting to the production. And that's another kind of theme of the pod, right? It's overreacting to the EPA for play. It's overreacting to the wins and the MVP voting and some of that stuff that can steer you away

from the film-based takes. After 2017, I had Carson Wentz at 10th in my rankings. And that was a big, and Eagles fans were mad about that too. And then what happened? You were probably too high. Right, exactly. I think

we'll close with this. I want to be a part of the condescension when you guys say if you tweet out, watch the film at someone, can you send me that tweet just so I can be a part of that?

Because I think that's some of my favorite content on the podcast and then in Twitter right now is when you guys just say watch the film. Just turn on the games. It's so good. Brock Party said it to Nick Sabin. He did.

I mean, Gio Smith has said that this year. you could be any person that consumes football, whether that's an analyst on TV, a podcaster, a writer, you have a TikTok account or whatever, or just a fan. If someone tells you watch the film, oh my God,

there is not a dagger that digs deeper. It is an absolute stab, and I just love every piece of it. It's even more cutting when you tell it to a film guy. You tell a film, like I tell Solac to watch the film, that it cuts even deeper for him. That is a dangerous game we play.

It's a dangerous world. All right, Steve, always appreciate you filling in, man. You are the Brock Purdy to my Jimmy Garoppel. We've made comparisons to Jason Goff all season. He might be in the Jimmy G tier. Okay, I don't know. Eventually we need to start talking about it, though, because there's a Ruiz comes on,

there's this new fire, there's this new toughness, there's this film-based takes, and Jason Goff, on the other hand, I don't know, he's an EPA quarterback. I'm going to start saying that. I'm starting you're an EPA. He's a system podcast host. He's a system podcaster.

He's got a top-5 EPA, but how much is that is the system? How much is that is the preparation I put in? The preparation that is our producer puts in. Connor Nevins, our junior Ramkopol. Those are our producers. This is the show. Power Anchors.

Until next time, Asa Gail, Stephen Williams. Thanks again.