The Ringer NFL Show - Week 15 Recap: The Saints Shut Out Brady and the Bucs, Green Bay Wins a Close Game on the Road, and the Lions Upset the Cardinals

Episode Date: December 20, 2021

Kevin and Nora are joined by Benjamin Solak to discuss the Saints blanking the Bucs (1:02), the Packers barely beating the injury-riddled Ravens (11:08), the Lions upsetting the Cardinals (40:55), and much more.  Hosts: Kevin Clark and Nora Princiotti Guest: Benjamin Solak Production Assistant: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Kevin Clark, joining on a Sunday night by Norprince Yad. I don't know what's going on. Certainly not getting shut out by the Saints. That's what's up here. Not our problem. Ben, so lax here too. Ben, what's going on, buddy? Man, football and more of it with teams winning and losing that you expect to happen.

There's a lot to get to today. Packers Ravens. We have talked a little Bengals, little Bengals process a little bit later. Patriots cold Saturday night. but we're going to start with one of the most surprising results in a long time. And a significant result, not just because of the game. Weird games happen all the time because of the injuries, because of the history involved.

Tom Brady was shut out tonight for the first time since 2006. Do you know the head coach of the team that shut up outwomen? No. It was Nick Saban. Oh, man. That's something else, isn't it? Posing quarterback was Joey Harrington. Got outdood by Joey Harrington.

I saw the stat where it was. last time I was shutout was in 06. The Malcolm Jenkins made it to the league in 2009. He's the longest 10-year NFL on the Saints defense. So it was three years until Malcolm Jenkins even got in the league to start building out the eventual shutout Saints defense. Wow. So Saints 9, Buck Zero.

The biggest loss tonight was in the injury department for the Bucks. Mike Evans out, Chris Godwin, out, Leonard Fournette, out. We don't know the severity of his injuries. We'll find out soon. Going into January, that's significant. This game might end up being significant. The two seed is now up for grabs. The Cardinals, the Cowboys, and the Bucks are all 10 and four in that slot right now.

For right now, is the three-way tie. For right now, the Cowboys have the number two seed. The Cowboys and the Cardinals will play in two weeks. The Bucs had the tiebreaker over the Cowboys with just them. But it's going to be complicated. It's just not the kind of game you want to drop right now. Nora, what did you learn? Well, maybe not all that much just because of the number of injuries on the Buck's side.

Obviously, they've had a lot of difficulty with the Saints over the years, particularly last year. I mean, I guess you learned that look like Dennis Allen, man, you just tip your cap because that's adding yet another one against Tom Brady. I don't know that it's particularly replicable for other teams just because, other teams are not going to have the Saints defense, but it shows at least, I think we already could have said that when you take away the high end pass catchers, the books are pretty vulnerable. Obviously, you don't expect a result like this, but I think it's more just, if those guys are hurt long term, it's really, really bad than getting shut out for the first time at home, losing to the taste of Hill Saints.

Like, yeah, people are going to dunk on you online. I don't, I don't think it's particularly meaningful, but I think those injuries are seriously meaningful because I think that this is probably not the average results exactly for a Bucks team. That's without those guys. I think if they had longer, they would figure something else out that's a little bit more potent like Brady is still Brady. But I do think that you take away.

without those guys, they are seriously, seriously hampered. So if those injuries are long term, that's significant. Bruce Sarin's asked after the game about not clinching the division tonight. And he said, quote, we lost about seven starters in this game. I'm more concerned about that. That's the right attitude to have, unfortunately. The thing with the Bucks is that everything in the receiving core works together. It was built in a very smart way.

Even Collinsworth during the broadcast, I'm on Chris Godwin, and how he gets rewarded because such a good blocker. and Ariens wants to give him catches because of that. There's so much, you know, Antonio Brown was already suspended and hurt before that. Mike Evans is obviously a huge part of this. Ben, going forward, what are your concerns if it's bare bones box offense besides everything? Yeah, right. The concerns is that it's bare bones, box offense.

Right. What I always recall is those conversations we had in the off season where we would do divisional previews or playoff expectations. And we would eventually get to the end of the conversation and we would go, and then there's the Bucks. What's wrong with this team? What is there to talk about? And the one talking point that was always mentioned was this team was number one in adjusted games loss from football outsiders in terms of important people missing important games, the Bucks for the luckiest team in the league. And injury is not like, like, you know, sport science is real.

And, you know, load management is important and change the way we do the preseason. All this matters. but injury hits. It is a violent game. You could do your best to win a little bit on the edges, but in general, you're going to get guys hurt. That is the unfortunate and sometimes very scary reality of football. Accordingly, what was going to stop the bucks?

It was guys getting banged up. It was not getting the injury luck they did last year. And here you go in a game against the Saints where it's not like critical division game to keep a lead or whatever, but could have clinched and didn't. And it's because the three centerpieces of the offensive attack, For Nett, Godwin and Evans, that's like legitimately 65% of the targets are all of a sudden gone across the course of the game. Now, very interested to see kind of where the stance on Antonio Brown and his fake vaccination card ends up now going in terms of if there's long-term absences for Godwin, whose knee injury looked really gnarly or what have you.

Very interested to see as well what changes in terms of- Let me step you right there. Let me step right there. Arian said after the game, Antonio Brown, we'll be welcome back. So there you go. Antonio Brown, you know, potentially reinforcements coming. The other thing that interests me is there was this figuring out of what personnel groupings we wanted to be in and how we wanted to get into our routes in the first iteration

of this Brady Leftwich Ariens offense. If they are thin at wide receiver, right? You don't really like replace a Mike Evans in terms of the guy outside, Tyler Johnson, Jalen Darden, they don't have that body. You don't replace a Chris Godwin in terms of blocking, you know, Scotty Miller, uh, Darden, yeah, you don't have that body. You're probably going to have to put a lot more tight ends on the field. That's going to change the way you run the ball.

Like, this is this. If this is long-term injuries, it's fundamental shift in terms of how we get into our spots. If there's a quarterback who can handle that, it's Brady. It's just, that's really, really, really hard to handle on a quick turnaround. NFL playoffs turn a month. I'm not sure how much you can change offensive in terms of what you like to do. By the way, the Saints with the win go to the seventh seed. We're about to see playoff tasem, Nora.

No, thank you. Wait, are you telling me, are you telling me like Bucks 2 Seeds Saints' 17 as like a thing that could happen? It's definitely something that could happen. Man. Is that excite you? Yes, absolutely. Okay. Here's what I know from last season.

I know that in the regular season, Dennis Allen punked Tom Brady. And then they got to the playoffs and Tom Brady got his. The Saints had four turnovers on offense. They were able to generate quick scores. The Saints never really clawed themselves back out of that hole. I also know that last year the Saints were shutting out Tom Brady in the regular season. and went down 38 points, the Bucks kicked a 40-plus-yard field goal to score three points to prevent Brady from being shut out. And then the next year, Allen shut out the Bucks and Brady in the regular season.

So what I like to see Dennis Allen, Bucks, Brady Patriots, playoffs part two? I don't know why I said Patriots there. They're not involved. Whatever. When I like to see the second iteration of what's not a Patriots game but feels like a Patriots game. Right. Yes, I would like to see Dennis Allen get a second swing at Tom Brady in the playoffs. because I just saw what the second swing in the regular season looked like

in terms of the shutout, and it was gnarly. Dennis Allen's playing meme when it comes to Tampa Bay, and I love that. So yes, very much I would love Bucks Saints part three in the playoffs. That's nice, but the seventh seed is a travesty. Yeah, the Bucks went undefeated last year in December, by the way. Like, this wasn't, the last New Orleans game happened in November 8th last year, the 38 to 3.

Like the Bucks kicked into gear earlier this year and didn't have a game in my time. But you know what was the case in December of last year? They were healthy. They were still healthy and everybody else was as hurt as they were going to be. Agreed. Yeah. Agree. No, I mean, this has the capability to be a catastrophic game for the Bucks.

It's just, it's, that is no, it's no indictment of the Bucks, right? That they had good, good health luck last year. Right. Right. Like very, very, very often, the teams that make big runs in the playoffs and look good at the end of the year are the healthiest teams. It is a physical, physical, violent game, and that is just how it works. And that's why you have to build your roster with depth, but it's also why there's

a certain amount of luck that just inevitably will matter. But, yeah. Nor, I wanted to bring this up to you, emotional Tom Brady at the end there, yelling at the ref, yelling at the saint's sideline, a little bit tilting through the surface, didn't do the handshake. He gets upset sometimes. He's usually, so I will say, he gets he gets a little petulant occasionally and he can get very upset.

I actually think that's probably a good sign. The one one thing that people talk about a lot and that was incredibly noticeable after they lost to the Titans to end the 2019 season was that that was the only like playoff loss anyone could remember or Brady didn't look. like he really was that upset. Where he just seemed, he was up at the podium. He was just sort of like, taking it all in. Yeah, like,

he was kind of at peace with everything. And that was weird as heck. If you beamed an alien in from outer space, they would be like, oh, wow, what a good, like, how graceful and defeat is this guy. But everybody who'd been around him for a decade was like, oh, this is weird. This isn't good.

So, yeah, I mean, he gets a little bratty. sometimes. But, you know, he's, he cares. Ben, now that the Saints have moved into the seven seed is Tassum Hill, the odds on favor for MVP. I would say Taysom's a shoe in for MVP just because both of those things are a farce. Beautiful. That's exactly what I wanted from you. All right, let's get us to proletives. Packers 31, Ravens 30. A lot to get to in this game. This is per ESPN. Three weeks ago, the Ravens had a 91% chance of reaching the postseason. Okay. As of right now, the Ravens are not in the playoffs. They're the number eight seed in the

AFC. That's how quickly this has turned for them. This is not a fair fight. Tyler Huntley started in place of Lamar Jackson. That's obviously huge Ryan Clark on Twitter earlier today compared what John Harbaugh is doing with this roster to what the nets are going through right now as far as having a depleted roster. I tend to agree. The injuries have been incredible. Last week, went through kind of the IR guys. You add Lamar Jackson on top of this. John Harbaugh is doing more with less. But they had a chance to win this game and they didn't.

We're going to get into a lot of it. Packers, special team discussion, Packers discussion, Ravens discussion, analytics discussion. But Ben, what did you learn? Ooh, I learned that the Packers defense isn't fully what I believed it to be. And that was, I think, I was getting there on Packers. You know, they were my Super Bowl team coming into the season. They were yours, Kevin.

I was getting there on them to get the NFC one. I was getting there on them to make that run and believing in this team altogether. We've started to see what this balance between AJ Dylan and Aaron Jones is supposed to look like on offense. It's great. Healthy Marquezvalda Scaling back. It's great. Defensively,

it was a really nice narrative that Joe Barry would come in and he would bring the Brandon Staley style approach and it would take a little bit to get that off the ground and it's heavy matched stuff. It's all about communication. So it takes some time for the defense to work. But then it would click and then it would go. And that's kind of how we usually see these things work. And that happened.

right? We felt like that was happening for sure on the defensive side of the ball for the Packers and that they were greater than the sum of their parts, but that was always going to be the case, so it's fine. And then Mark Andrews beat up on Darnell Savage for four quarters. And Darnell Savage is one of the best players on this defense. And it was a reminder of, oh, shoot, like, if teams get a good matchup, better than the sum of my parts falls, you know, that house of cards falls down. It shatters. That idea of like, you know, we're all about communication and matching and we're going to be one amoebo working together. it starts to fall away if a guy like Savage can't take away a guy like Andrews, right?

Because that's what the playoffs is. It's every team has got two or three dudes that are just winners, one-on-one, one-on-on. If they find the right guy against your right guy, ballgame, right? And that's the concerning thing is that Devondra Campbell is a great signing. And Rishon Gary's been playing a lot better. And Darnell Savage and Adrian Amos are a great safety duo. And Jaya is coming back. But in general, this was a reminder that this defense isn't full.

like the, you know, they put the graphic up. Their top 10 and yards per game allowed and points for game allowed. Last time I did this, they won the Super Bowl. Okay, well, that's nice, but they probably aren't exactly that just yet. And it's a good reminder of the Packers, Achilles heel. Nora? Well, I think the operative thing is that the Ravens clearly could see that before the game, right? So they're matching Savage on Andrews.

Andrews goes 10 catches for 136 yards, two touchdowns. Next-Gen stats only was charting this or, posted about it for the first half, but they were just running him on crossers where in the first half, three targets, three receptions, 74 yards and a touchdown. And some of those routes, he starts with, you know, he's got like less than a yard of separation, but he's still able to do it. They did that with him so much, you've got to think that what Ben is saying, they were going into the game thinking, okay, we've got a winner here. We can exploit this. Obviously, the Ravens coaching staff is one of the best in the league. You expect them to be able to do it. But it's not the only time that tight ends

have been an issue for Green Bay. And it's one thing if, okay, everybody's got a weakness. Everybody, if the other team has winners, they can win. But when you do get to a point where you kind of feel like, okay, the opposite sideline clearly knew that this was something they could try to exploit. And, you know, desperate times desperate measures, right? Like, if you have Tyler Huntley going out there, as good as he was, as as surprising and wonderful as it has been to see him kind of thrive a little bit, you have to be thinking like, okay, where can we just win and let's grind that into the dart? Clearly, they felt like they had that edge in that matchup and they're going to see it until they stop it, right? I still think that's a very good defense, but when you put a problem on tape,

people are going to go after it. Not everybody has a Mark Andrews to go after it with, but people are going to go after it until you prove you can stop it. Interesting. Okay. So I would like to point out that Darnal Savage did get a finger on the two-point conversion to win the game on a Mark Andrews intended pass, by the way. Okay.

So, Ben, I want to briefly get to this because you're the quarterback whisperer on the podcast. You had Tyler Huntley as good before most people. I don't know. There are a lot of people who were saying, oh, I saw a new Tyler Hunt was going to go to Utah, whatever it was. whatever it was, but you had the receipts. Give us what you saw out of Tyler Huntley. We got a lot of reader questions asking if teams should try to go get Tyler Huntley.

Let's not put the cart for the horse here. But would you see out of him and kind of what is next for him when Lamar comes back? John Harbaugh said he thinks Lamar will be back next week for a big game against Cincinnati. So, right, so I like Tyler Huntley coming out of Utah. A lot of people on like Twitter and in like draft spaces likes Tyler Huntley come out of Utah. And the reason is because, like, Tyler Huntley was good in college. he was a good quarterback, right? Funny how that works.

Yeah, right, exactly. Like, that's the thing is, here's the secret. There's a Tyler Huntley every year in the sense that there's always a quarterback who's just like good in college, like good bowl player. And all of us who do this like online are like, he's good at football. And then the NFL's like, yeah, no, but he doesn't, he can't, he can't hack it. We're like, why? I'm like, because he doesn't have what he needs.

And it's like, are you watched? He's good at the football. He's good at it. And that happens every single year. Vernon Adams out of Oregon was the first one. and they just have all continued on that line forever. So Huntley, yeah, we have the receipts. There's a bunch of other guys who probably also got decently similar treatment

who don't, you know, end up peaking the way they do. But the thing about Huntley that is indicative of that continuing trend that we're seeing is that the value of his mobility was misunderstood. It was miscalculated when he came out in, I want to say, the 2020 draft. And he was undrafted. He didn't get invited to the combine. And it's because he didn't have ideal measurables. and he didn't play in a pro-style offense,

and it's like, all right, the thing that matters here is that he can throw an accurate ball and he can move. And if you can throw an accurate ball and you can move, you can create so much space on the field that in structure you can win

and out of structure you can win. The only other thing you need to be able to do is just not be banged up and Huntley was an Ironman at Utah. And so that's like the model for what you want behind Lamar in Baltimore. He's very clearly like 0.67 Lamar's, right? It's just what he is.

Like in terms of play style, in terms of where he gets to do. to his routes, knows how he makes his decisions. It's very similar to Lamar. So you're able to keep a lot of the core tenants of the offense the same. They do different stuff

with Humley, different route distributions. I know, but keep a lot of the core tendency the offense the same and keep your philosophy the same on offense. So I'm not sure Huntley works as well

on other teams, unless you're willing to kind of build it in the same way. But for the Ravens, he's an absolute delight to have it in their back pocket. Why was he not invited to the combine? I mean, okay,

do you want the, you want the NFL answer? Shane Patterson was invited to the combine. Get their ass, man. Listen, he's a black quarterback who played in the West Coast. He's a black quarterback who played after everybody went to sleep. That's why. Now, there's, you know, oh, his agent was this.

And oh, because we had, you know, Shea was a higher star recruit, whatever. But long and the short of it was he was a black quarterback who played after everybody went to sleep. That's how that goes. Right? Like. analysts, everybody, a long time to catch up to the value of a mobile quarterback and all of the ways where you could build an effective offense around a player who plays like Tyler Huntley, maybe someone who's more like, I don't know, eight-tenths of Lamar Jackson instead of six

is what you want to go for there. But again, like, Shea Patterson and Stephen Montez are getting senior bowl and combine invites. Stephen Montez was six five, two, 45, it could launch it. Right? We're not setting the bar particularly high, though. Right? And, And quarterbacks who don't go to the combine don't get drafted. Like, that just doesn't really happen. We're all talking about effectively the same thing here, right? Is like, you don't value the mobility enough so you don't get the combine in fight. So X, Y, Z, like, they're all ultimately the same problem.

But there are these gatekeeping mechanisms where, like, if the quarterback doesn't get past the first step, it's basically over. And that just stinks. It just stinks. because Tyler Huntley is good and fun to watch. Yeah. The other thing is that, and you'll appreciate this, because he was a Florida recruit, right?

He was out from Florida, him, Zach Moss. Him and Lamar, both South Florida guys one year apart. Yeah, right, and it was him, it was him, Zach Moss, and I want to say, Damari Simpkins was the receiver there,

and they all decided to go from high school together to Utah. And I'm here to tell you that the power brokers in college did not like the Florida quarterback leaving and going to the west to play Utah. People did not appreciate that from Father Huntley. when it comes to combine invites,

those are the sort of people who make calls, very simply, right? And so I very much agree to where it's, you know, there are people at the gate that decide whether or not you come through. Those people decided Tyler Huntley was going to be undrafted when they made that decision. Then he went to toe to and Rodgers for four quarters.

That was pretty sick to see. It's just like, I find it very lame because I am not here to criticize specific draft decisions necessarily, right? it's really hard. And the people who do it are better at doing it than I would be by about a million, gazillion miles. But some things like just inviting the kid to the combine are so simple where it's like, all right, I'm sorry. Yeah, sure. Most of you are smarter than me at this. But like, that's an L. You missed one. Mm-hmm. Yep. Well, he has proven himself. And if you're

if you're going by ring around a fellow show reader questions half of the NFL won on the team for next year so the future is bright for Tyler Huntley um we will uh we know we have to point out the fact that they they lost in a box two point conversion or an incomplete two point conversion um according to uh Elias sports bureau the ravens are the first team ever to have two two point attempts down one in the fourth quarter in history um the NFL institute of the two point conversion nine 94 so that it's been a long time and nobody's gone for quite like the Ravens. We're going to have a national conversation this week about analytics because of

Brandon's Daily a couple nights ago because of Belichick on Saturday night. We'll get you that game. And because of the Ravens on Sunday night. And there are a lot of stupid things are going to be said. A lot of smart things are going to be said. But let's go on the record here. Nora is math. Is math over?

Kevin, you speak for yourself, okay? We are not necessarily taking part in any said conversation. I'm saying the media. I'm saying the media. The media is going to have a big football. No, math is not over. I just, I don't want to talk about analytics. I really hate this conversation.

It's so annoying. I just prefer to make dumb jokes online. However, I really do have to say, like, I want people to adopt as a gut check before they say anything about analytics. Are you yelling at math? is the thing that you are upset about just like an inanimate number or formula. And if the answer is yes,

maybe do something else. That's all I'm saying. Listen, we got to pivot here, all right? This wasn't math. Like, he didn't do the analytically correct thing.

Right. When he was down 14 and they scored a touchdown, he was supposed to go for two and he didn't. And then once he, as he kicked the extra point, down by seven, once he gets the ball back, they score the touchdown.

of most models that I've seen have it as a recommendation kicked the extra point and dig it to overtime. Next-Gen stats had an extra point recommendation by 14%. ESPN win probability. I think ESPN win probability has a slight edge to two-point conversion. I know the Baldwin model had it as a kick. Aaron Schatz had had kick. Right.

And he goes for two and the post game Harbaugh says, you know, is my gut. I just felt like we wanted to win it there. We didn't want to put the guys back out there. So this is... So Harbaugh says math is dead. Yeah. He had a similar explanation a couple weeks ago where he said basically

that he was out of corners and he just wanted to win the game then. He gave a similar quote tonight where he said he felt like they could win the game on one play and they went for it. And John Harbaal is as in tune with analytics as anybody in the NFL. And that's not just from a game calling standpoint.

That's from a scouting standpoint. That's from an in-season standpoint. That's from a sports science standpoint. I understand that. And I actually think he's doing the right thing because my take on this is, if you're going to win over anybody in analytics, I don't actually think John Harbaugh cares.

Like, Mark Andrews after the game said, if you're second guessing, you're wrong, like that was the right decision. They liked the gutter. Flore also said he would have done exactly the same thing. Right. So going into a press conference and saying, hey, I have all these binders and charts,

which some coaches do, I think is the wrong move. I think the good move is the John Harbaugh move and saying, hey, we feel like we win the game. We have confidence in our team. Nick Sabin, I guess, to a coaching convention over the last year or something, had talked about this, and he basically said that he goes for fourth down when he really likes his defense, right?

And like, I know that that's a folksy sort of anti-science explanation, but that's actually like the way to get the fans on your side to saying, hey, we have a great defense. Let's go for fourth down. It's also, it's also actually not like an anti-math explanation, right? Because I'm saying it appears down. I'm extrapolating a little bit. Well, sure. But really what you're saying is, okay, I understand that there are numbers and formulas that work out in a way that. it tells me that in general, the probability of outcome X, if I do Y, is Z. And one of those things is going to be better or worse depending on whatever variables. Now, inevitably, whatever formula you use does not account for all the variables that are present in a given football situation in a given game, including who you have injured, what you feel about what you would call on that specific play. what the weather is, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And those things matter, right?

But if you're saying, okay, I acknowledge and respect that the probability would be X, but that's not taking into account why. So I'm choosing to do Z, then that is like so airtight to me. I mean, not if it's just wildly, if it's, if the benefit of kicking or going for it is like incredibly skewed in one way

and you're saying, oh, there was a subtle thing that made me do it the opposite, then no, you're rightfully going to get skewered for that. But if it is a borderline call, proving that you understand it, but had a reason for going the other direction, is to me the more interesting, the more smart, and also just sort of completely defensible way of presenting yourself.

So I'm totally with you, Kevin. I just don't think that saying that, I don't think that saying I understand what analytics would suggest here, but I'm choosing to do something different because of this specific reason. Like, I don't think people get up in arms about that. I think what they get up in arms about is like, these dumb numbers.

Right. Well, I think that coaches who are going to be aggressive have to win over three different factions, the media, which is sort of not, it's obviously, the media is not one big thing, right? Like, guys on TV who talk at halftime are completely different from bloggers of PFF or football outsiders or the ringer or ESPN or whatever.

And then you have the first. fans who have their own set of ideas about the sport. And then you have the players. And the most important thing is the players. And as long as Mark Andrews is saying, like, don't second guess coach was right. It doesn't matter how aggressive you are. If the players believe in it,

and obviously everybody has, John Harbaugh established something special when he started asking Lamar Jackson whether or not he wanted to go for. Lamar always said yes, because players will always say yes. Certainly quarterbacks will. And then he kept going for it.

We saw that time and time again. I think the first one was in Seattle during that MVP season if I remember. And that just keeps happening over and over and over. There's a buy-in towards aggressiveness. I think other coaches can probably learn from where it's just what you do now. And that's why I think John Harbaal has done it right. I'm as pro-analytic's anybody.

I've written a lot about it. I've been blessed to see a lot of the analytics databases in the NFL. I spent a lot of time studying it two or three years ago, whenever that was. And some of the stuff in this league is amazing. But the league is not nearly as modern as maybe people think. It's not even close to baseball. It's not even close to basketball. There's reasons for that.

And in fact, a lot of smartest teams have no interest in analytics or barely any interest or only in one little department. It's an evolving thing. It's a weird time to, you know, it's a clash of old school and new school and it has been for almost a decade. But it's going to be a fascinating conversation to watch over the next couple of weeks in all three facets, both players and then media and then the fans as well. So it's going to be interesting to say. Any other takes on this or does anybody want to get angry at Packer's special teams? Oh man. Packers should figure out their special teams.

I don't really care. But also. Not too happy about it. Yeah, it's something else. It's incredible how a unit can just like make a bad play. And you're like, all right, there's the bad play. And then they just keep doing it again and again and again and again and again. Feels like that shouldn't be the case, but it is.

Something to fix. Something to fix. All right. Nora, Pat's Colts. Yeah. Hey, fun little game we had there on a on a Saturday. So I want to talk about sort of two things here. And one is the part that I don't think is necessarily real or super replicable from this outcome.

And the other other thing to me carries more water. The first thing is just, okay, we should acknowledge that this Patriots loss involved probably a higher degree of stupid and just like screw up than you will normally get from. the New England Patriots. They had 50 penalty yards. The first drive, they come out. There's two just like, you're not focusing. Penalties, drops. They have the blocked punt.

They fall start twice in the red zone. One of them is Mike on Wayneux on the third and two that becomes third and seven. And then after an incompletion, Bill decides to kick instead of going for it. They have the op sides that wipes out a missed Colts field goal. Mack was as bad as he has. been this season. He has two picks. The first is to Leonard. He either just didn't see him or underestimated his closing speed, which is a bad idea. That's his first pick in the red zone. Second one to Okereiki, he's late and just didn't have the velocity on it. That's bad. Usually he's,

I think he's been pretty impressive over the course of the season, just sort of understanding his limitations. That seemed like one where he didn't understand just if you're going to be late on that it's got to get there really, really fast. And it just wasn't going to at that point. That's a rookie mistake that I don't think you normally see, but it was sort of bad to see, particularly because he was also late getting the ball out on the play that turned into the illegal downfield penalty on the first drive. So you can just go through the list, right, where this is one of the messiest games that

you will see the Patriots play. They were a little bit weird about it. Max said that they had a bad week of practice after the game. and was was a little bit opaque about why they had bad, low energy. Did Patriots players ever say this? Like, I cannot think of a time when I've ever heard somebody say anything like that before. And it's not like it's that outlandish of a quote, but he just was like, the energy was just kind of low. Maybe we were feeling a little sorry for ourselves because coming off the buy and stuff, not to get into details,

but we just didn't practice well. And that just reflects how we played. I didn't practice well. and I know a lot of guys on our team felt the same way. That's such a I played at Alabama and New England quote. Brothers. It's so strange. Belichick washed.

I find that odd. I don't think it's a big deal, but I find it odd. It's just like a weird thing to say, man. But I'm a little, I'm mixed up on whether or not any of that really matters because I just think that they aren't going to have. that number of mistakes in any other game. The thing that I think is a little bit more legit is they just got out physicaled. And the Colts deserve some flowers here because, look, Carson Wentz is a sidecar to this

operation. But New England had their big bodies on the defensive line. Godshaw, Lawrence Guy, Guy, and Barmore all played at least 60% of the defensive snaps. And they're still giving up 226 rushing yards, 5.8 per carry. And Jonathan Taylor's big run at the end adds to that, but it should add to that because stopping that run was there one way to preserve any chance of winning the game. And they did not do it. And so the Colts would be the team to do it. But to see, you know, another one of these sort of murky middle of the AFC teams play the Patriots and say, hey, look, you're not the only team that can just sort of bully people and out physical people.

and kind of throw it back and contend in the AFC that way. I thought that was really meaningful. And I think the Colts deserve their flowers for doing it. That said, again, Wentz's 5 of 12 for 57 yards and was lucky to have one interception. So I think what I'm saying is like, congratulations to the Colts. You're frisky. You're probably going to make the playoffs. I hope you do.

I think you deserve it. Not sure how much further it'll go than that, but that's something worth celebrating. rating and they were just really, really tough, right? Like Taylor was crazy, but he was, according to PFF, still getting a yard and a half

before contact. So the Colts O line, playing a heavy Patriots defense, which has struggled against the run, but they were selling out to try to stop the run more than they typically do. They were still beating them up. So I think they deserve credit for that.

Yeah. Okay, so a couple things here. Number one, Frank Reich went for it on three, fourth, and ones converted every single time. Math is back, baby. Math is back. Okay, so I agree with you. A roller coaster of a podcast for math. So I agree with you that the Colts are really interesting.

We had James Jonas in the podcast earlier this week, and he talked about the Colts being a legitimate contender in the AFC because, you know, nobody's going to want to play them in January when they can whip you up front, have Jonathan Taylor run down your throat. It's an interesting theory that I tend to think that they can steal the game here or there. Taylor, by the way, according to next-gen stats, on that 67-yard run to clinch was going at 22 miles per hour.

That's fast. Be fast. Very fast. So, I mean, I thought that the Patriots were kind of due for a stinker. I was not surprised by this by this game. Ben, I guess I'm going to put the ball in your court. Can the Colts be a realistic, like, playoff, like, win two games type of team with this recipe?

Yes. This defense is fast. This defense is fast. This roster is good. Like, we saw they can punish quarterbacks to the mistakes, but what happens if it's not Mac Jones? Yeah. The defense is fast thing is awesome.

And I'll tell you why. It's because the day Everflus took over the job, he's like, we're ready to the head's principal, baby. Greg Olson mentioned it, I think, at the half time. Wait, let me stop you right. When Josh McDaniels was head coach, right? Oh, was he fired, was he hired, like technically for McDaniels?

Is that? Yes. Was that a McDaniels fire? Oh, wow. Yes. The calls coming from inside the house. Unbelievable. So, right, hits is hustle, intensity, turnovers, or tackles, and then something else, whatever.

It's like, we're going to try really hard and be really crazy. And then he did that, and that was awesome. It was a huge for Darius Leonard. Kenny Moore, undrafted, makes the team, like, emotional leader, whatever. But then, like, all they did was run cover two. And it's like, hey, like, Matt, you can do hits, but then also, like, run modern stuff and run other stuff. Sure. And it took him about three years to get there.

But now they are. And it's really, really nice because, like, yes, Darius Leonard is playing fast. And yes, Kenny Moore is playing fast. And Rocky Sins having a great resurgence after really struggling. And they got Isaiah Rogers out there, six-round pick playing corner. And like, we're just going to be like this team. Like, you know, oh, we're going to put the best workers out there. We're all going to coales.

But then they're also like matching zones. Like, they're like doing modern stuff now. And so you get all the, all the credit and all the joy for this kind of philosophy that Everflus runs. And that's great. But the willingness he's had to increase coverage diversity, the willingness. the willingness he's had to change up what he, what he knew and what he loves from Zimmer, has been really, really important

because it makes the Colts defense. It's not even like it makes them better. It certainly does, but it just makes them modern. It makes them real. They actually change pictures on you. They throw different looks. That's how you get Mac Jones delivering the ball

right to Darius Leonard in the low red zone. You've like given a quarterback something they didn't expect. Another thing they love about those zones that you hear guys there talk about a lot, is that just everybody's got their eye on the quarterback. everybody's got their eye on the ball, right? Like when the play, when the ball's about to get snapped, two post-snap, everybody's looking for the football.

And one, it helps with the interceptions. Two, nobody's, none of the Patriots past catchers were getting yards after the catch in this game. Like they didn't have a great, you know, not a great day for those guys overall. But in particular, I mean, nobody was generating anything after the catch because the guys were just swarming there. And that's been a really interesting element to hear them talk about how that defense has just sort of clicked there a little bit is just the fact that they have their eyes and they're all

looking for the ball. It's just interesting to hear them talk about it because it seems like it's been sort of of an unintended consequence, but something that's really helped them because I think early in the year they were struggling in the turnover margin. I forget, I don't have the numbers for that in front of me, but I remember. hearing guys there talk about it. I think that's been one of the things that's sort of helps them

turn that around a little bit. They were getting like four Wentz turnovers a game early as well. Right. It's like that was, yeah, yeah. But they've really surged in the takeaways department.

Inevitably a piece of the puzzle. Yeah. Every year you hear about like 25 different people who perfected the peanut punch during the off season and then only one of them actually has and this year that guy is Darius Leonard who just continues. Every time he throws that punch, like there's no way and it always lands.

And it's very impressive. So shout out to Darius. in that regard. But to answer your original question there, Kevin, defensively, I really like what they've done recently. And then offensively, Frank Reich just is just constantly in his bag. The young man is just constantly cooking.

It's really, really cool. The Silver Fox, Frank Reich, is just constantly cooking. He looks young. It's so impressive how they just walk out and just do something different every single week. There are not coaches that can do that. They are very... He's 60 years old, Ben.

I'm sorry. This is how I'm used to talking about people. He continues to really, really impress. And I think that the fact that Wence went 5 for 12 and had a completion percentage over expectation of literally negative 25 is like not good overall, but also speaks to how Reich's able to win, like even when he needs to be one-dimensional.

They are just, they have so much to them on offense. that I continue to have faith that they'll come out with the correct game plan. They'll come out with the correct X's and those ideas, and that'll help them early. They have continually given up big leads in games this year, and they really, really freaking tried to do it again against the Patriots. Belichick, not going for that aforementioned, fourth, and seven, after the third and two fall start is one that really could have saved the Colts bacon there.

And so I do think they have that. So I really, really trust this coaching staff. With that said, the continued willingness to let teams get back into games is really frustrating and certainly concerning come playoff time. I want to see who the oldest coach this year you can talk about how they're in their bag and call them young man. Like, Tom Moore, who's, Tom Moore is 83. He works for the bucks. Yeah. Like if they have a particularly good offensive game, I need you to say the young man is in his bag about 83.

The limit does not exist. This is a direct result of trying to not call college prospects kids. now they become young man and now everybody's young man. That's just how that goes. Lions 30, Cardinals 12. Yeesh. Yish, guys. Okay, so the Lions are the third team in the Super Bowl era

to be a one-win team and beat a 10-win team. Okay, 13. Had a lot of Super Bowls. Third team to do that. That's a failure of the 10-win team, and it's a bit of a success story for Dan Campbell and the Detroit Lions, who don't need to be trying right now.

There was a story a couple weeks ago about who they're targeting with the number one overall pick. I'm sure their front office is in that mode right now. Dan Campbell and Jared Goff are taking advantage of weird Viking's coverage schemes two weeks ago and now taking advantage of a Cardinals team

looks like they want to fade down the stretch. This is a hallmark of the Cliff Kingsbury Cardinals over the past three years since he came in there. The Cardinals started 3-3 and 1 in 2019, finished 2 and 7. Last season they started five and two finish three and six and out of the playoffs.

And this year, the 7 and 0 and our three and four cents. Oof. It has not been good down the stretch. There's a lot to sort of isolate about this. The Cardinals, by the way, are the four seed at weeks end, regardless of what happens in the other games. They're not in line for the buy, and that looks, I mean, at this point, I'm just hoping they get right before the playoffs.

I'm not even worried about the buy. And Jared Goff is 8 and 1 against the Cardinals. He's won't 7th straight. Listen, you don't want to be owned by Jared Goff. You do not want to be owned by Jared Goff. Cliff said this week, impressors before the game, quote, we haven't beaten Jared Goff since I've been here. And I think he's a really talented quarterback in building with that team. Why would you say this?

That's just begging. The carmic gods heard it and said, absolutely. We will deliver. No problem. Can I give you the answer to that? To needle your buddy, Sean McVey. How's that needling Sean McVeigh? They're saying McVeigh's always beaten him.

Yes. Okay, fine, fair. I don't know. I was trying to do some mental gymnastics of like, well, he didn't like Jared. He didn't think he thought he was, no. McVeigh thought it was all Jared's fault. So if Jared's actually good, then Cliff is saying, you're right. Redacted.

A middle-aged man, professional coach man, stood at a podium and said, I've never being Jared Gough and thought his week was going to go okay. You're right. It's indefensible. Kyle and Mori played really bad under pressure today. But this was a total organizational failure. When you lose the Lions, and I like the Lions, I've talked up Dan Campbell on this podcast before.

When you lose the Lions by that amount, everything went wrong. Ben, help me out here. What the hell is wrong with the Cardinals? So it looks like, you know, that Kyler had that ankle injury. And there was kind of like, oh, you know, he'll come back. and, you know, a couple weeks it'll be fine. And then they kind of prolonged it a little bit. Like, say, the by week coming up and they're winning with Cole McCoy.

And I was like, oh, they're just doing it to be safe, right? No problem. We don't got to worry about it. And then he played that Chicago game. And it was terrible weather. And they were dominating on defense, getting turnovers. And he didn't look like amazing moving. But it was like, he had a couple scrambles that were nice.

Kyler's probably be fine. Don't worry about it. We're probably getting to the point now with what we've seen in the Rams game and now in the Lions game where we should say, we sure that ankle's good? Yeah, because this very much feels and looks like 85% Kyler Scramble. Now, 85% scramble,

Kyler still has plays like he had a third and nine where he like, you know, Madden drop back for 25 yards, just weaving back and forth and launched her to AJ Green in the middle of the field and they converted. And it's like, all right, guys, nuts. So that still exists. But the longstanding criticism that we, have had of the Kyler Murray, Cliff Kingsbury, passing game Cardinals has been that so much of

this offense is, Kyler figure it out. Kyler, get it done. Let's win a jump ball. Let's win a scramble drill. Stuff that just doesn't feel like you can tether it together for 17, 18 weeks and make a playoff run. The Cardinals were doing that early in the season, and now they have a little bit of a banged-up Kyler and they lost Yondri Hopkins.

And all of a sudden, the margins get a lot thinner and doesn't feel as good. and you wish that you could generate a more sustainable passing game. But it's fine because your running game's been great, right? Roddy Hudson's on the COVID list. Now we ain't moving the moving bodies for James Connor the way we were, right? Connor struggled to get it going on the ground against the Rams. Same thing happened against the Lions, not necessarily the scariest front, the Detroit Lions.

Chase Edmins is back. Maybe that'll revitalize our quick passing game or screen game. Lions were all over the screens. They were ready for them because they know that's kind of the situational look whenever the Cardinals are bad in their running game. So right now, it feels like a Jenga piece got pulled out in terms of Kyler's ankle. And when that came and maybe another piece with the Hopkins injury, we just, this, this tower got a lot more unsteady.

They got pushed off the ball on both sides of the trenches. And they get the Colts on Sunday. And afterward, the Colts just did to the Patriots, that trench matchup is really, really worrisome for an Arizona team that's now. Do you know they have afterwards? Dallas. Dallas. Yeah.

That's not good. They're not two teams when we're right the ship against. Feels like they should have beaten the Lions here in terms of playoff comfort.

Really feels like this was the game we should have just, you know, won and then we wouldn't have had to worry as well. I don't have gotten a limb here. Yeah.

And so it is legitimately worrisome in Arizona. This does not feel like a good team dropped a game to a bad team so they weren't

paying attention. This feels like a team that needs to get healthy and I'm not sure if they have the time frame to get that done. You know, the Hudson thing's interesting

to me. We had Jim Monon. I was the former Bill's executive on at the beginning of the season. And he said, he was talking about Hudson specifically. And he was saying that when he would sit and head coaching interviews, they would ask coaches, what's your rank your most important positions? And they would always say quarterback first. But he said the position that came up, especially with a young team, way before you'd think was center.

And he said that if you have a center and a young quarterback and they're both talented, you can get away with a lot. And so I agree. And we talk, we're talking about Kyler kind of plugging all those holes and, and, out, you know, kind of painting over whatever errors Cliff makes or lack of adjustments, whatever, you need a center to be able to do that. You need them to be at least upright in some way. And so I'm going to agree with you that that COVID loss is huge.

Yeah, I mean, this is, as we said, you're going to want this win because the next two weeks are not going to be good. Week 18, they have the Seahawks. Who knows what will be going on by then? But they've got a big physical team coming into Arizona the next couple weeks, and this could be bad. Nor our takeaways. The Hopkins thing, I think, is legit. You know, if Kyler's ankle is not 100,

that's the first jenga piece that you're pulling out. But it had been a criticism of Kingsbury's offense for so long that he just has them line up and go from the same spot every time. And that argument had kind of been beaten into submission because they'd been really good. But I don't feel great about, a.J. Green wide receiver one when the game plan is just everybody line up and go, right? The simplicity of what they do is not going to work unless the guys you have are going to win really regularly.

Kyler has not played a lot without Hopkins on the field since he was traded to the Cardinals, but this is per ESPN when that has happened, and it's only 94 out of 645 snaps. so the sample size is not huge. But his production drops from 7.8 yards per dropback with a 10% off target rate to 5.6 yards per drop back with 22% of his throws off target. So that's significant, right? And if you compound those things, that I think is when the areas in which we haven't always been fully confident in the coaching are really going to show up. And I think, look, what they did earlier in the season, that doesn't just go away, right? And I don't think that you can be that successful and have that many things go right for the majority of the season.

If you're not, if your coaching is not doing something productive that is a little bit more behind the scenes than just play calling, just scheme stuff, just the stuff that you can see. during, you know, on broadcast tape or whatever. But taking those two things away is going to shine a spotlight on those things. And I'm not super confident. We're going to like what we see the next couple of weeks in terms of that. All right. Ben, Titan Steelers. Aha. The worst game played this year.

We're going to encapsulate this game in a sense. sentence. And this sentence was written by whoever does the PFF game recap for Steelers Titans, which is Camboui, Bommani. You did a great job. Well done. Here we go. You ready? All 19 of Najee Harris's rushing yards came after contact. All 19 of Najee Harris's rushing guards. That's the total rushing yards. Naji Harris had. They all came after contact. So that's where we are. emotionally. We can actually continue if we want. Deonti Johnson recorded an explosive reception

to headline his pending 63.0 receiving grade, but his five catchers on six targets went for only 37 yards. He was the leading receiver in the game. Not for the Steelers, not among Steelers receivers. Deonti Johnson's 37 yards were the most of any individual player in the game. So the Steelers win 19 to 13. They were down 13 to 3 in this game.

before subsequently they scored a touchdown in the third quarter off of the Titans punt. The Titans subsequently fumbled the ball. The Steelers scored a field goal. The Titans subsequently threw an interception and the Steelers scored a field goal and then the Titans fumbled the ball again and then the Steelers scored a field goal.

And that literally decided the game. That sequence of drives in the second half which the Titans turned it over on three consecutive drives and the Steelers couldn't even score a touchdown on any of those turnovers. But that mattered enough, such that the Steelers won this game. We foreshadowed this game a little bit, Kevin.

We were talking about how much this might matter for AFC North playoff seedings, just with Pittsburgh trying to make a post late. And I remember saying, the Steelers, there's going to be an ugly game, and the Steelers win ugly games. And you said, well, what about the Titans? And boy, were we both right, because nobody really won this. It was absolutely. Which team makes you angrier than they keep getting away with this in the big picture?

The Steelers are the Titans. Because the Titans are still going to make the playoffs. Yeah. Oh, the Titans are. like 85% to win her division and just couldn't move the ball. I think it's the Steelers,

mostly because like the Titans still aren't healthy, right? Like no Derek Henry. No AJ Brown coming into this game and then Julio tweaked to Hampshire again. I liked the Julio trade for the Titans. I really did. I thought the gamble for what he could be

was extremely worth it for a second round pick. But I think it's clear that at least this season, Julio's body's just not having it. And I don't know if we're going to be able to see again, Julio's body just being able to play, you know, the majority of a season, which really, really sucks. But I think the Titans kind of get a little bit of a pass. Like, they're always been an ugly winning team,

but they've been a little bit unhealthy. This is how it was supposed to look for Pittsburgh. This was the whole plan, the whole time. I wish this was a visual medium so I could show everybody the photo of Ben Rothesburg after his touchdown. Yep. He just fell. He just fell face first into the goal line,

and everyone is standing around him. It was a sky cam shot. I mean, it just, it was, it was unbelievably emblematic of anything he's ever done. Yes, yes. She just fell forward. Right. That's what he does. They go to commercial with that.

They come back from commercial with him sitting on the steps to the locker room, just by himself pontificating, just ruminating, meditating. He needed a minute. He said after the game, he said he thought he had gotten the Hinesfield rushing record, and he was told he had it. And so he had to go and think about that. And that was like his joke a little bit. But this was Rathusberger's first rushing touchdown since 2018 because he doesn't do quarterback sneaks. And then just to be-

If ever there were evidence that Rathusberger should have been sneaking at this entire time. Right. Nobody has a better build for it or a better personality for it. Just general inclination of the human spirit. But Rathusberger on the quarterback sneak. Right. So I think it's the Steelers that pissed me off a little bit more

to get away with this. But the thing here is that I think I would say as a positive to ring out on a nice note. T.J. Watt set the single Steelers season record in Sacks with 17. His 17th came in this game. He has played 12 and change games. He is ludicrously talented, having a dominant season. He should be the defensive player of the year, especially if the Steelers do legitimately make a run for the AFC North here down the stretch. No, or anything else in this game?

I would like to fall into a ball pit. right now or just like this week? Yeah, anytime. I feel like it's a weird time for ballpits. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Not in my beloved city of New York, I'm probably steering clear right about now. Is there a ball pit open in Manhattan right now?

Is there a ball pit closed in Manhattan? Do we have a ballpit? Do you all do gymnastics when you were kids? They have a ball pit at like Chelsea Piers, maybe? Probably. like an ice rink. They have a golf range. Yeah, they might have a ball pit. All right. We'll investigate, but not a, not in person.

We could go to a post. We could do a postseason. Yeah, like by the end of the season, I think everything will be normal and we can live pot pit. So that can fly in. I don't need people thinking I'm that young. I don't need people seeing me in a ball pit. I'm already fighting that battle. Frank Reich is that you? Frank Reich is there. Frank Greg is there. He's in the ball pit. Okay. All right. Time for listener questions. question, Miles Thomas asks, what's the better outcome for the Bengals?

And he also asked about the Cardinals. We want to focus on the Bengals here because we haven't talked about them today. Make the playoffs and probably get bounced and end up sticking with Zach Taylor or bottom out, maybe miss the playoffs, hire a better head coach for 2022. Now, the Bengals won on Sunday in a very ugly game against Denver. I came away feeling okay about the Bengals. There's a couple things to get to here. We'll get to it in a second.

But I think questions can be asked about Zach Taylor. Nora, where do you go with this question? So I think for the as far as the Cardinals, no, you don't want to bottom out. And I know that, look, there is critique of Cliff Kingsbury and some of his decisions on this very podcast.

But I do think that this is a little bit of like the grass isn't always greener. I think just given where that roster is, you don't you want to stick with the status quo more than venturing into the great unknown if that requires bottoming out to do so i think you think about it for the bengals i do just because burrow has looked so good but they haven't they don't seem to be making the most of him and I wondered if they were going to do this last season at times. And I'm sure Zach Taylor is a really nice guy.

But I do think that if I were an owner, I would rather do it early on in somebody's tenure to just take a very long, hard look and go, is this the guy to get the most out of the quarterback who we want to be the future of the team? And that would be my concern. Interesting. You know, another listener named Matthew wrote in and said that he was actually just a comment in the question thread. We basically said he wants everybody to know that the Bengals won today with a third string right tackle and a right guard due to injuries. Again, this was a sloppy game.

I think Zach Taylor's done okay. And by the way, the Bengals are not going to be forward thinking as far as firing. They're going to fire somebody year too late instead of year too early. That's just how they roll. Yeah. So I should say, I'm answering this sort of in the spirit of the question. I honestly think the actual NFL answer is you want to make the playoffs. You want even that one game means so much.

And I think 32 out of 32 teams would sort of feel the same way about this, no matter what their circumstances are. But again, in the spirit of the question, it's a little bit different. Like this is a fan-based question and maybe like secretly like a GM question. And by the way, these are decisions that would be different if the Bengals had a traditional actual GM instead of an owner who sort of the. GM and then a de facto GM. Ben, Zach Taylor, you have some takes.

Right. I think. Duke Tobin's slander here on the ringer. He's not the GM. He's just like the draft guy. And but the thing is Duke Tobin had a really good year this year, right? Duke Tobin, who is 51 years old, by the way, been in his bag a little bit. Free agent

signings are great. Draft class was great. They feel, the thing with Cincinnati that I always come back to is they beat the Broncos 15 to 10. It was by no means a pretty game or an enjoyable game. And yet, I sit here and I feel, I feel that Kevin Clark tug of like this team is on the precipice. Like, they feel like that, that young team, that around 500 team that we should be getting excited about for 2022. And Zach Taylor feels actively like an impediment to that effort, right? In terms of the willingness

to take field goals. Like I, here's a made-up stat. The Bengals have attempted more, less than 30-yard field goals than like any other team in the league. There's no way they have it. They constantly do it. The red zone offense, Peter's out a little bit like, all right, 26-yard field goal. There's no need for that, man. They became extremely conservative in terms of how they threw the football in the second half when they were protecting a six-point lead and a five-point lead. It's just you could be so much more than you are.

Taylor feels like an obstacle. He feels like dead weight being lugged upon by the younger pieces on his team that he's supposedly assisting. That sucks. With that said, there, I think, to Norris point, the much more likely avenue is that they make the playoffs and lose. And in losing hope that Taylor gets a little bit of a wake-up slap, whether or not that happens, we'll find out. But he is a young coach, and it will be his first playoff experience.

And hopefully when he makes that run, you'll see, you know, the wheels turn there and him saying a little bit, I have to change the way I think about play calling. I have to change the way I think about situational football because I can't hang with these big dogs the way I'm currently doing it. Ben, I need to know if you knew that Duke Tobin was 51 years old right off the top of your head. I googled it. Hmm.

Wait a second. Duke Tobin played for Orlando Predators. Now we're talking. Such a Kevin Clark aside. Such a Kevin Clark insertion. Jay Gruden was the best player in Orlando Predators history. Okay. I would not be surprised that there's a connection there.

No, I'm just sad. Well, Jay Gruden came up with the Bengals. I'm just saying there might be a connection there. Might be how he ended up in Cincinnati. Just throwing that out there. I'm looking into it. How the Orlando Predators shape the modern NFL, Kevin Clark, byline, 2023.

They've played against Kurt Warner all the time. All right. I would give Zach Taylor another year. I feel like they've shown something this year. I'm not in love with the guy. I think he's probably in the lower end of the McVeigh tree, but I think that the Bengals are a tough team to turn around, and I think Taylor has executed what he needed to for this year.

Next year, I think he's under the Microsoft. go. I wonder if instead of either firing him or having to like lose in the playoffs or something dramatic, there could just be like a meeting where someone would be like, hey, what if, you know, run, run pass? Maybe not. Put it on his calendar. Seems like an idea. I don't know, a little less drastic. All right. This has been the Ranganafell Show on the Ringer Podcast Network. We will be back later this week. Nora and I will do a podcast. Ben is going to do a midweek podcast. Is that correct? The preview podcast can be Wednesday. I'll do whatever I'm told,

man. Ben's like, missed me. See the ball, hit the ball. You know that guy you shout out at the end of the pod? Arjuna Ramble, yeah, he texted me and he's like, yep, we're on. I'm like, all right, I'll do it. All right. Well, we got a busy schedule this week. I know that. I know Nora and I'll be back on Tuesday. Players show is off. We'll be back next Sunday with an all-new look at the entire slate of games. Thank you to Isaiah, Blakely, for Redmond Health. additional productions and provision by Arjuna Ramgapal. It's been the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network. See you this week.